Zach Diamond 0:03 Welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other. So this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the modern classrooms project podcast. Hello, and welcome to episode number 157 of the modern classrooms project podcast. My name is Zach Diamond, and I'm a middle school digital music teacher in Washington DC. And today I am joined by Christine Walker, a high school World Language teacher in McMinnville, Oregon. And Craig Meyers, a sixth grade math teacher in Portland, Oregon, and an adjunct professor at Lewis and Clark University. And both Christina and Craig are distinguished monitor classroom educators and expert mentors as well. So is it going to be a great episode? We're in great hands here. Welcome both of you to the podcast, Christine. And Craig, I'm so glad that you're joining me. Christine Walker 1:05 Hey Craig Meyers 1:06 hey, thank you. Zach Diamond 1:07 Thank you. And also, we discovered before the podcast Well, I discovered both of you are in Oregon. And I thought that there was some connection like they're a teaching team, but it's just a coincidence, just both in Oregon. So yeah, go great. West Coast contingents. Alrighty, so let's talk about ungrading. And I wanted to open this discussion with a quote, I was telling Christina and Craig before the recording that I'm reading this book on my Kindle, and the highlights that I'm making in this book are literally too long to save. They exceed the limit of Kindle highlights, because everything in this book is making me go Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. It's a very good book. And I strongly recommend that our listeners, if they've heard about it, and haven't checked it out yet, go and pick it up and read it. But I wanted to start off with a quote. Because I think that this quote, really encapsulates sort of my feeling about the themes that we have for the podcast this month, and last month, on sort of confronting and, you know, tearing down oppressive systems, the quote says, though, grading seems natural, inevitable, a part of the very fabric of school, it isn't, it was created at a certain moment, for certain reasons, not entirely, well thought out, and then became embedded in the structures of schools for most students. But because we invented it, we can uninvent it, we can remove it. And I thought that was just a really powerful quote, because a lot of the things that happen in schools, and a lot of the things that modern classrooms addresses, and just a lot of the things that teachers kind of know, are wrong, they're not part of the fabric of reality, right? They're, they're things that we can change. Christine Walker 3:00 For me, ungrading means that my class is focusing so much less on the letter or the amount of points, it's, it's a mindset shift. And you really have to adopt that it's, I was telling my students, it's like, going on a diet, you have to make the decision to do it. And so it was a big mindset shift that we had to adopt in our learning environment, and helps my students and I to focus on their skill building that leads to language fluency, specifically in my class. And this shift kind of led me away from grading and didn't really grades that didn't really explain to my students about exactly what they needed to do to grow, right. And so we are moving so much more towards actual feedback, the students get to use like, right away to build their skills. Like, if you do this, then you'll grow in this way. Right? So instead of my students coming in asking me, like, what do I have to do to get an A what I have to do to get a B, right? I was so tired of the hoop jumping? And I'm like, No, that's not really why we're here. You know, now my students and I are having conversations about like, you know, based on those actual standards that are laid out, that's ACTFL is the organization that world language uses in the United States. And so, if I show them, these are the learning targets that we have, these are the goals that we have to get to fluency. You know, the path is so clear to them now. And it's also something that they actually think that they can achieve which is amazing. Zach Diamond 4:39 And so it's the mindset, right, and I think teachers having the mindset is one thing. training students to have that mindset is a much bigger challenge. Craig Meyers 4:48 Training the parents Christine Walker 4:50 and I was just gonna say, and then the parents Zach Diamond 4:51 Yes, Craig Meyers 4:52 training the parents is a whole other challenge. Zach Diamond 4:56 Oh, my goodness. Yes. Christine Walker 4:57 I love my parents, man. But it's, it's You know, and I mean, like Craig and I, and you were all trained this way. Right? So I mean, like before, we had to completely shift our mindset. And when you're coming at parents with, no, no grades are bad. They're like, how are my kids going to get into a university? How are they going to walk across that stage, you know, when they're graduating, so I feel them, I feel them, yeah. Most high schools around the country, start passing at 60%. Now, I know I'm just a German teacher, and I'm not that great at math. So Craig can back me up here. But I think that zero to 59 is a majority. And that is an F. And that's, that, in my opinion, it can be extremely discouraging to a student who has who may have no control over their support system that surrounds them. They are their ability, maybe even come to school, you know, and to say that, you know, zero to 59, this is all failing, right? Like passing only starts at 60. I mean, I have students who are coming back from surgery, students whose parents live on the other side of the country that they need to go visit or mean, like in a country in a different country, for that matter, right. I have students who, you know, have disabilities who may need extra time. And I just believe that all these humans can do whatever they're passionate about. So I feel a grading that is skewed towards failure is completely inequitable, to all populations that we serve, Zach Diamond 6:30 there are more failing grades than passing grades. Christine Walker 6:37 Not once, in any interview, did anybody ever care to ask me what I got on that one math test, because Oh, my God, I would never be hired. And you know that what they do to me in an interview, the interviews that I've been in, they'd be like, Listen, give us your German. And we're sitting here with another German speaker, who can, you know, attest to the fact that what you're saying is actually not gibberish. They just wanted to see my skill, right. That's what they wanted to know that I had in order to do my job well. Craig Meyers 7:14 To me, the ungrading did one other thing in my teaching practice, which is actually forced me to talk to my students about their grades. And I think that is something that is missing a lot of the educational pieces that that I've been doing is like, I didn't, I mean, I gave there the grade. And we don't do A to F here in my building, we're very fortunate we have a different system. It's a little wonky still. But it is giving me an opportunity where I can have more conversations with students about their learning, not about the end result. And I think that's one of the things that I pitched to the parents, and that seems to help them out. It seems to kind of give them a better mindset of like, oh, okay, I think I can, I can work with that. It's very hard for them to figure out and follow. And it is one of those pieces, though, that I think really helps out. I can give the students this example of like, okay, this connects to here, how does that connect, you tell me the connection. And then that allows the students to start having more conversations about, oh, that's why we do it this way. Okay. And it gets away from a gets away the students away from just getting wanting the right answer, which, you know, allows for the students to actually learn more, retain more, and I act I've been having less struggle and, and, you know, for those that don't mighty less tears in my classroom to because I've had a lot of tears, you know, middle school is hard. Craig Meyers 8:50 The hurt I see, in some students, when they didn't make proficiency, it almost shuts them down to where they're like, I don't want to try anymore. I've tried twice. I can't do it. And so I've been trying to get away from that, because I still hear the I can't and I don't get the I can't yet I get the I can't. And so I feel like the ungrading is starting to make that directional change that I really, really want. And, you know, middle school is one of those essential pieces that if we can get that mindset in them, even if they go in towards a more traditional, you know, percentage A through F system. They don't have that fear anymore. I feel like or at least less of a fear because they had that foundational piece. And at least that's the direction I've been trying to go. Zach Diamond 9:39 Hey there, listeners. This is Zach. I hope you're enjoying these short casts over the summer and I hope you're having a great summer break. We have some announcements for you. These are in real time. This is for the week of June 29. Are you tired of traditional grading perpetuating inequities? How pertinent to this episode? Join our book club hosted by one of our teacher lead yours to explore grading for equity and discover how mastery based learning can ensure all students succeed. We'll discuss strategies for fair assessment and building a classroom culture that celebrates growth. It's open to educators of all levels. And our next session is on Tuesday, July 2 at 7pm. Eastern Time, check the link in the show notes. For more info. Lisa Doty 10:21 Are you an educator who implements blended self paced mastery based instruction in your classroom, join the modern classrooms community of innovative educators worldwide, and receive certified credentials, public recognition and access to exclusive swag. Hi there. I'm Lisa Doty. And I get to work with educators like you as they begin their teacher leadership journey. By applying for the distinguished modern classroom educator credential Applications are accepted on a rolling basis. So you can apply any time to get started, navigate to www dot modern classrooms.org, forward slash distinguished educators. That's www dot modern classrooms.org. Forward slash distinguished hyphen educators, we look forward to reviewing your submission soon. Zach Diamond 11:19 There were a couple of moments in the book where it kind of like very bluntly and kind of almost brutally says you need to hold up a mirror and look at your own class as well. And one of the things that I that I got from the book is that if you're using grades to motivate your students, it kind of implies that your content isn't actually that interesting, right? Or valuable to them. Yeah, which is, it's, it's kind of brutal, right? But you have to hold up that mirror and say like, if they don't care, why should I try to be what why should I be trying to coerce them into caring using grades? Shouldn't they actually care? You know? Craig Meyers 11:59 How do you constantly tell kids that, okay, you're you're constantly giving them a grade that's failing. And they have gaps, they know they have gaps? You know, they're not, they're gonna figure that out. And all it does is just just keeps demotivating them. Zach Diamond 12:13 Exactly. And I think it also alienates them, because it's like, look, you're failing, in this world of school, you're a failure. But it, it's a very myopic view of the world, right? It's like, they have so many strengths, it's a very deficit first view viewpoint of the student, right, it's like, we're putting aside all these other great things that you are and that you love, and that you do, and that you're good at even right and saying, You got an F on your math test, you know. Craig Meyers 12:42 And one of the things that I'm going to try this year with sixth graders, which I'm really excited about and slightly nervous about as well, is I'm going to not tell them what their overall grade is on that assessment, until after they get a chance to review all my feedback. And so what I'm going to do is I do a lot of reflection I've been doing that's the other part of the upgrading part that I've done is a ton of reflection for the mastery checks, before they take a mastery check the task right before the mastery check is actually a confidence level reflection on the on the lesson. So what I've done on this page is they have a space where they reflect on the vocabulary that I find important. And then down below, they kind of write down a reason why they feel confident in that lesson. So I write out the learning target. And they read that and they kind of write what they thought they got out of it. And then they bring that to me, oh, and they right at the very bottom, they write two different main ideas from that lesson. So they create kind of like this little study guide from that lesson, they bring that to me, I have a quick little conversation with them. So kind of, they're kind of doing a mastery check before they even get to the mastery check. And that's created a lot of conversation because sometimes I have students who just kind of bring me up the very bare minimum, and are really good at like doing the exact same thing. And both record, you know, both examples. But you know, why not? Right? Like they still have some examples there. And it's, but it's giving them an opportunity to kind of like make it their own learning. Zach Diamond 14:19 Because the school requires that we need to fit into the system at the end, right. But like, none of these grades reflect anything about you. What you're showing me this intrinsic drive and motivation to learn and the actual German, which I assume got to be very good, right? So it's like these constant ds, and the good German, they just don't balance out. And I think that that's why, as I was reading as I was reading on grading, I was just nodding my head the whole time. I was like, yes, these grades, they're, they're arbitrary. They can change like they're, it's so much deeper than that learning is so almost impossible to measure. And so instead of trying to measure Let's have dialogue about it. Right, let's let's be the, you know, the employers who at the interview asked you to just speak in German rather than looking at your transcript. Christine Walker 15:13 Yeah, because I mean, but like, seriously, I don't even give a final exam. Because I tell the kids like you showed me throughout the year. What Why should I give some extra arbitrary test at the end, when all the other teachers are and you're stressed out already, I was like, trust me, that doesn't make your German better. Right? I mean, it's about what you showed me all year long. Zach Diamond 15:41 We could go for another two or three hours. Honestly, I have so much more to say. But listeners will spare you that. Remember, you can always email us at podcast at modern classrooms.org. And you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast dot modern classrooms.org/157. And I really hope you appreciate those show notes because in them every single time I wrote engraving, a cut autocorrected to upgrading, so I had to go back and change every single one. Please go and look at those lovingly crafted shownotes. Of course, this episodes recap and transcript uploaded to the modern classrooms blog on Friday. So be sure to check there or check back in the show notes for this episode, if you'd like to access those. And of course, thank you all for listening. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday. Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work at WWW dot modern classrooms.org. And you can learn the essentials of our muddle through our free course at Learn dot modern classrooms.org. You can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at modern class proj. That's p r o j we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the modern classrooms project podcast.