Zach Diamond 0:03 Welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other. So this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the modern classrooms project podcast. Zach Diamond 0:28 Hello, and welcome to episode number 186 of the modern classrooms project podcast. My name is Zach Diamond, and I'm a middle school digital music teacher in Washington DC. And I'm a modern classrooms implementer and mentor. And today I am joined by Megan Kindred, an instructional coach in Portland, and a former modern classrooms teacher and current mentor. Welcome, Megan. Megan Kindred 0:52 Thank you, Zach. I'm so excited to be here. Zach Diamond 0:54 I am excited to we are going to talk about collaboration, which is I think it's sort of one of those evergreen topics that we just didn't talk about a lot. We have had episodes before on collaboration. And I'll go ahead and link those in the show notes for listeners to check out as well. But you bring a really interesting perspective on collaboration, I think because you're also an instructional coach. And so I'm definitely excited to dive into this. And listeners can probably hear that my voice is sort of shot tonight. I'm a little hoarse. I've been sick this week. And so we are going to collaborate in that I hope that you'll help me out and like do most of the talking. But just kidding. Well, we'll find some way to get this done together. Anyway, I'm really excited to talk about collaboration, again. It's just such a important topic. It's one that like fires me up in the classroom. I love seeing kids collaborating, so I'm really looking forward to getting into that. But before we do, tell us a little bit more about yourself. Megan, tell us who you are, and how you started your modern classrooms journey. Megan Kindred 1:53 All right, well, um, I am currently an instructional coach in Portland, Oregon. And I'm actually in my first year as a coach and new at my school as well. My modern classroom project journey started pretty early on in my teaching, actually, when I moved back from I used to teach in California. And when I moved back to Oregon, in my first year back up here, I went with my principal to workshop on the fixing 15 fixes for broken grades. And then brought that back and that kind of that view of like, you know, the getting the mastery based ideas in there and things like that, along with the fact that I was in an IB school, did a lot of project based learning really kind of led me to this place where I felt like my students needed to be able to work at their own pace. And I started out using the like playlist model for that. And then during distance learning, I found modern classroom through I know I hear it on the podcast all the time, but through the Edutopia video. And then I did the virtual mentorship. During while I was in distance learning with my students, and I was teaching middle school language arts then. And so I started implementing online, I actually had Toni Rose as my mentor, and they were amazing. Zach Diamond 3:27 Oh, cool. Megan Kindred 3:28 Yeah, that was a great experience. And then I was able to implement kind of right away and did it for the in distance learning for about half the year. And then at that end of that year, I was told, I was going to move to fifth grade. So I made that shift. And I started implementing in math, I found that to be a really easy play entry place for me. And then, even though I started implementing with language arts in middle school, I was like math was kind of my way in with fifth graders. And then I started using it with ELA, and then added on other subjects. And at the end of the point with my fifth graders, I was probably doing about 60 to 70% of our day was using the model. Wow. Yeah. And yeah, then I guess it was my first year teaching fifth grade I applied to be a DMC and it's one of the things I really tried to encourage my mentees to do after a while because I really had it in my brain that I had, like, implement for a certain amount of time before doing that, like I needed to like really be an expert in it. And I feel like I waited way longer than I needed to. And I feel like I got so much out of just doing that application felt really meaningful for me. And then I became a mentor and I love mentoring for MCP. Zach Diamond 4:57 Yeah, I also I also love mentoring for MCP, it's super fun. But I would also I would also echo that encouragement for folks to apply for DMCE. You don't have to aspire to become a mentor, which is, you know, another thing on your plate but becoming a DMCE doing the application for the DMCE is very, it's very illuminating, right? It's like you walk very step by step through everything, that MCP is sort of asking of you. And I review those applications. And it's just it's a very detailed application that doesn't feel like busy work. It's like if you're doing a modern classroom, either you're already doing these things, or they should be like, oh, yeah, I probably should try that. You know. So that's, that's great. I also encourage people to to apply for DMCE, you don't even have to have taken the training. As far as I know. We've had, we've had people on the podcast who became the DMCEs without even doing the virtual mentorship program. So that's great to hear. And yes, the Edutopia videos, I will link them again, I have them like on my like, my perpetual clipboard, to link in the show notes. Because that's a very common pathway into modern classrooms for folks. So Megan Kindred 6:07 Yeah, funny about the DMCE I told somebody recently, I encouraged them to apply because my main motivation was that I wanted the Edpuzzle subscription that came along with that, like, I was like, running out of space on my Edpuzzle. And like, it was like, more videos. Zach Diamond 6:25 You know, I can only imagine like, if you're teaching, I teach middle school, I've never taught elementary school. And so like, if you're teaching all the subjects, yeah, it makes sense that you need more EdPuzzle storage, right? Yeah. I'm curious. This is totally off script. But I'm curious if there were any materials you had already made for your middle schoolers who you were that you were able to reuse in your ELA classes in elementary school, or is it completely different standards, and you have to make all new materials. Megan Kindred 6:54 Um, I wasn't really able to reuse anything in particular, but I was able, when I started doing ELA with my fifth graders, I was able to kind of mimic the structure I've used. So I use my firt, like my unit I had made for that distance learning time, into a similar structure. I think part of the other reason I couldn't make it overlap very well was that it was distance learning versus in person. And so I feel like I made a lot of tweaks from that more so than the grade level. Also, I have, I have a hard time. Like my second year doing fifth grade, I still remade a number of my videos. Just because I like felt like I learned a lot and how I wanted to teach. Since it was only my second year doing fifth grade, I felt like I learned a lot and how I wanted to teach it. So I changed things quite a bit. So Zach Diamond 7:53 totally. Yeah, that totally makes sense. It's funny, and I was I think about it, actually, you having said that. I don't think I've reused any of the videos from my first year of modern classrooms either. I think I have one. It's like, it's not one of my main lesson videos. It's like a resource that's linked deep within the slides that I still give my students but yeah, actually, yeah, you're right. Looking back at those older videos, I feel like I've improved enough to have higher standards for myself. All right, let's talk about collaboration. All right. And I always love hearing about collaboration from elementary school teachers, because Elementary School is I have I don't teach elementary school. But I do have two elementary school children of my own. And kids really love to like, do things together at that age. And then in middle school. Did you say what grade you taught in middle school? Megan Kindred 8:44 I taught all of them. I taught at a very small k eight. And so I taught sixth, seventh and eighth grade. Yeah. Zach Diamond 8:51 Yeah. I mean, I get some of that energy from my sixth graders. But the eighth graders are just like, very, just very much eighth graders. So tell me about the collaboration that happened in that fifth grade classroom. Like, I'd love to hear what it looks and feels like. And especially sort of like the differences across the different classes as well. So just talk to me about that, in general. Megan Kindred 9:13 Yeah, I think a lot of my the way my classroom was structured that really fed into collaboration was just that I kind of had a culture where like, not only was it okay to talk, but it was encouraged to talk cool. I think collaboration happens more authentically, when it's like, comes up naturally, sometimes versus like, here's a specific assignment to collaborate on. Those are great and definitely have their place. But I think just that idea that like, if you have an expectation that the classroom is always quiet, it's really hard for students to collaborate. Zach Diamond 9:50 Yeah, exactly. Megan Kindred 9:52 Yeah. And so I really just tried to like kind of build a classroom culture where students knew it was okay to talk, they kind of had a good sense of like, when it needed to be quiet versus when they could talk more. And so I feel like if you like, particularly with like, using the modern classroom project model and not standing in the front of the room to deliver whole class instruction, there's not as much of that, like, you can't talk because I'm talking time. Totally. So I feel like kind of what you're getting at is like a picture of like, if you walked into my fifth grade classroom, it would look like, and, you know, mostly, it was kind of kids all over the place, I one of the things I thought was a huge factor, and leading by collaboration was flexible seating. It allowed my kids to like, be where they needed to be, and to learn, but also to move. And so if it was like, oh, I need help with this thing, I'm gonna go move and sit next to this person who can help me. And then that allowed for that collaboration to come up. So yeah, I had students who sat under the floor, on the floor under tables, you know, doing things or you know, traditional desks or standing, just kind of wherever they needed to be to make it work for what they were doing. I think that really kind of allowed for those different spaces and the space for like, if there is a lot of collaboration happening, and someone else needs it quiet, they can find that quiet space to. Yeah, so those were things that I feel like really kind of created that collaboration to my classroom. And then I think another huge thing that I worked really hard on was like, having good relationships with my students, but then also having them have good relationships with each other. And fifth grade is a time of a lot of like, friendship, issues come up, much like they do in middle school. And so really kind of giving the time to work through those kinds of things. So students still felt like they could trust each other in order to be able to collaborate. And I usually, in terms of the like, looking at what my classroom might look like, I tended to sit at a, like a kidney shaped table that I used as my teacher desk instead of a desk, so that if students were coming to work with me, there was always space for more than one of them. And that allowed for that kind of collaboration to or if I wasn't in that space, students would sit there and work together to and just allowing for that, like, at any moment, you know, people could be watching videos, doing all the different parts of kind of the model, but also just like being able to work together as they chose, Zach Diamond 12:44 as they chose and kind of as needed. Right. That's, that's awesome. Okay, I think that I'm getting a sense that there was like a lot of freedom within the structure that you were giving them like, and I think that that's really important in the, I guess the sort of there's the logistical sense that you can, you're free to sort of do a lot of things like flexible seating, you can have conversations, you're not expected to be quiet the whole time. But there's also like a sort of, like, existential freedom, right? Like, my teacher is not going to get upset with me for talking about something with the person sitting next to me. Be and that's because like we recognize, or it sounds like you recognize that sometimes that is collaboration, like we can't put collaboration in a box and be like, you're not talking about like lesson three, a or whatever. You know, they might be talking about something that's not evidently related, but still are collaborating and are working together on the thing. And so that sense of freedom definitely resonates with me. I mean, I do see that in middle school as well. And I can imagine what that looks and feels like where kids are just sort of like, you know, if I need to quiet I go over here. If I need to ask somebody a question. I can have the rest of my teacher or I can work with the people who are around me who I know well, and who I trust to help me. Right. That's fantastic. And the ask three before me thing. I feel like that leads really well into my next question for you, which is which of the specific MCP elements that you used to sort of specifically encourage collaboration? And I would, I would imagine that that Progress Tracker tracker was useful for kids, when they were looking for those three to ask before you, right, yes. But not not just that also like talking a little bit more specifically about modern classrooms. What else did you use to encourage that collaboration and sort of structure that freedom that and that trust that we were building within your classroom? Megan Kindred 14:38 Yeah, I love using the tracker. I am personally a huge fan of the auto updating tracker. And I wouldn't, yeah, I would project that in my room, and I would embed it I used to make Google sites for all of my units, like each unit had its own Google site to use as an LMS because I didn't personally like the LMS provided to me. So that's what I did. And I would project it in the sheet that is the lesson by lesson. So where you see each lesson, and then all the students who are in that lesson are listed below it. Because that really just gave them an easy, you know, the, you can use any tracker to find a partner or a group. But if you can just look at the lesson you're on and see everybody who's on there with you. I feel like that's exactly helpful. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Or everyone who's one ahead of you when you're like, I need somebody who mastered this helped me. Yep. Yeah. Another thing I use that I feel like I probably learned about this on a prior episode of the podcast, what is the I would use my tracker, and not daily because like I said, flexible seating was a big part of my classroom. But I would often, maybe like once a week, sometimes twice a week, depending on the week, use a daily seating chart that was based around what lesson they were on. Cool. I shared that one. So like that couldn't be in a show note. But it and what I would do is I would give up, I would give different seats for each lesson. So it wasn't like it you're on this lesson. So you must sit at this type type of seat. It was to where like an area of the room. And I feel like that really allowed for that like authentic collaboration that comes up like just like, I need help, or I need somebody to work with. Or yeah, like we're both working on the same problem. Like, let's talk about how we're solving this math problem. Or let's talk like, tell me what your topic sentence is for this paragraph. Because I'm stuck. Zach Diamond 16:46 Yeah, so this is awesome. Because I think that like, the way that we you and I are sort of philosophically aligned in thinking that giving students the freedom to, to collaborate organically is the way to go, right. But this is a perfect way to model what that collaboration should look and feel like for them in a much more structured way. So like, I love that, like you do it every now and then. So they know Oh, this is how I this is how my teacher is using the tracker to group me with somebody who is on the same lesson as me, or maybe someone who was ahead of me. And that's how I'm going to use it. Tomorrow when we have flexible seating again, I love that it's a perfect model. Megan Kindred 17:25 Yeah, it worked really well. And not having it be every day was really helpful too, because then they still feel like they have the choice and the freedom, Zach Diamond 17:34 right? Because they wouldn't get to use that model to like really learn anything. Megan Kindred 17:37 Yes, yeah. Um, so then one of the other things I did in the model that really provided for collaboration as I actually had. not all but many of my lessons actually required a partner. Part of that came from the fact that my district uses iReady math, which asks students to try to solve a problem and talk about it, before they get any instruction on it, to talk about how they solved it. And so when I was trying to figure out how I used the model with that curriculum, it was like, well, I need to provide a space for them to start with trying to solve a problem and talking about it before they watch an instruction like the instruction part of the video. So I would actually require them to watch the video with a partner. So I invested in a lot of headphone splitters, and they would sit with one computer and they would do the video together. And I like I said I you know, I became a DMCE for the Edpuzzle. So I would use my Edpuzzle there and I would put in instead of like a question popping up, I'd often pop up just like a note that was like a task of like, explain to your partner how you solve this problem. And things like that. And so they'd have a task to do with their partner, as they were going through the video. Zach Diamond 19:01 We'd love that, like little collaboration prompts within the Edpuzzle. Megan Kindred 19:05 Yeah. And then there were some lessons that required partners, some that just allowed for the choice of a partner. Every once in a while there'd be something that was had to be independent, if it was like, especially I'm thinking in like, my language arts units, if they were like working towards completing a piece of writing, and I knew they were going to be like, writing their introductory paragraph in that lesson. That's something I wanted them doing independently, so it was their own writing. But I would on my game boards would have different kinds of color coding, like I would shade in the squares, because I use the tracker, but I also have game boards for my students, and that's where I would link things. And so I would color code the different squares to like let them know not just if it was a must do or should do or an aspire to do. But also if it needed a partner or had the option of a partner, so they could just certain that without having to, like, read a whole set of directions, or come ask me 15 times like, do I need a partner for this lesson? So Zach Diamond 20:14 right, I'm looking at the the one. So you shared one that we're going to link in the show notes. And I'm looking at it right now, slides with a red outline, need a partner? Dashed outlines are optional partners, how cool. It's like, I love that, like it took me, you know, 15 seconds to figure out how this works. And that's, that's awesome. And I'm sure that obviously, once you know that, now, it's your norm on it, and the kids figure it out. Alright, so for these red lessons, like the solid red lines that our partner required, are they grouped with someone? Or do they then need to find someone like on a flexible seating day, Megan Kindred 20:50 they need to find someone, sometimes I'll help facilitate that. But my main method of doing it since it was self paced, and it was hard for me to necessarily know exactly where everyone was, you know, because sometimes they're in a lesson you don't know if they're starting it or in the middle. Yeah. And so what I would use is I would designate a part of my whiteboard and the front of my room to be a place where students would write, I would put the different lessons. And if they needed a partner, they just go write their name up there. And then whoever the next person you need a partner would would need to go find that person. What a great little routine. That's awesome. Yeah, and going back to the thing of like, the classroom culture, like, we just worked really hard to make sure there was a culture where it was like, you can work with everyone, for a little bit of time, even if this person is not your best friend. I used to tell them a lot. Like I'm not asking you to enter a long term relationship. I'm just asking you to work with this person for a 15 minute lesson. And, you know, they, they could go with that because that was the culture we had no row. Zach Diamond 21:54 That's fantastic. That's fantastic. Awesome. I love this map. What map is this? I see the doldrums. The Valley of sound. See and Morrissey? Megan Kindred 22:03 It's the book The Phantom Tollbooth. Zach Diamond 22:05 Okay. Okay. I figured it was probably the book that you were reading it for. I haven't read The Phantom Tollbooth since I was probably in elementary school myself. Anyway. Megan Kindred 22:14 Yeah, I had read it in fifth grade and then got to change it taught it to fifth graders just like, yeah, only one year. But Zach Diamond 22:21 yeah, well, I love how it's integrated into the game board. That's, that's all very cool. Megan Kindred 22:25 I'm thinking there's one other thing that I really did that was part of the model, which is that in math, in particular, I would, I made most of my should do activities were games, they were like partner games, or sometimes like groups of three. And so that really allowed places for collaboration. And then I'd work in aspire to dues that were also partner or group tasks. So that, you know, one, I think that if you can make your should dues and aspires to dues appealing, more students stay on pace, because they want to get to them. And so by having those be also a place for collaboration, and something fun, that was like another way that I built in collaboration time. Zach Diamond 23:09 Yeah, that's I totally agree. I think there was an episode a long time ago, I can't remember who it was with might have been Sarah Moon, Sarah Moon, if you're out there, and you hear this remind me if this was you. But somebody said on the podcast, and I was I was hosting that podcast that you're aspiring to do is your students should aspire to do them. Like they should be fun. Good, good advice to to always come back to and reiterate. But I just love the sort of general flow here. It's like, we start off describing this sort of, you know, I called it freedom. You call it flexible seating, and the students are allowed to talk, right? It could easily become total chaos, right? But it feels like you are mixing in these structured activities that aren't just structured for themselves. They're structured to also teach students how to use that free time productively to collaborate, or to not collaborate if they need to go off and be by themselves. Right. But like, they're their activities that show students what resources they have, both like the people they're with, and also the stuff that gets in the room the tracker that they can use during that unstructured time. So they're not just, you know, bouncing off the walls doing whatever random thing. They're, they're doing their own thing, using the tools they know that they have. Megan Kindred 24:30 Yes, yeah. I also think you know, like, I know, it's come up on the podcast before but the model is great for classroom management. Because it like and I said this to a teacher the other day that I was coaching which is that like, if they're busy, it solves your management issues. If you if students are busy, you have less classroom management to do. And I really feel like that ties in here too, because like Yeah, with all that freedom, they can go bounce off the wall, but if they know Oh, they have to get the work done. They have to find that balance for themselves. Yep. Megan Kindred 24:30 yeah. I also think you know, like, I know, it's come up on the podcast before but the model is great for classroom management. Because it like and I said this to a teacher the other day that I was coaching which is that like, if they're busy, it solves your management issues. If you if students are busy, you have less classroom management to do. And I really feel like that ties in here too, because like Yeah, with all that freedom, they can go bounce off the wall, but if they know Oh, they have to get the work done. They have to find that balance for themselves. Yep. Zach Diamond 25:05 100%. And if they're already done, there's something else for them to do. Like, yes. Especially something fun I should do or an aspire to do with a game with a friend. You know, that's who wouldn't aspire to that. And Megan Kindred 25:16 my fifth graders favorite aspire to do was make their own video that was their like, big, like, their favorite thing to do is to make their own instructional videos. Zach Diamond 25:24 On what I love that what did they make instructional videos on? Megan Kindred 25:28 So I always added that I used to end all my math units with a like a choice board, because I found that more so in math than any other subject I implemented in, it seemed like I had the ones that finished. And other kids were like, still had a week to go like it was they were just so spread apart more so than other subjects I found. So I would end with a choice board so that there were like nine things. So if a kid finished one of them, it could be like, pick another one. And really just keep them going. So usually, what were those would come up would be in that choice board, and they would make an instructional video about something from the unit. So if we were dividing decimals, they make an instructional video on some strategy to divide decimals or something like that. Oh, Zach Diamond 26:18 that's so fun. I love that because kids sometimes do a better job explaining these concepts to each other than then we can or at least than I can. Yeah, like sometimes I'm like, I'm, I'm saying this. So clearly, if you don't understand it, then some other kid comes over. And he's like, he's just saying to use the microphone and talk louder. And I'm like, Oh, my God, it was that simple. Okay. Megan Kindred 26:39 Yeah, I would do that. I would like let students who were who after they made them like we they'd share them. And students could watch them, like in preparation, because they came at the end of the unit. So like review for unit tests and things like that. They were a great tool for that. Yeah, Zach Diamond 26:53 that's, that's cool. It's interestingly, talking about it now. I was going to ask you if students collaborate on them, but in a sense, they are collaboration, like, if the students are making them for each other. It's another one of those like, resources that comes from the group. I love that. Yeah, that's so Megan Kindred 27:09 so did often make them in video or in partners make their videos and partners because like, it's more fun for them that way. Yeah. Zach Diamond 27:17 Right. Awesome. That is awesome. I'd like to shift now. So we had been talking about collaboration with your students, your fifth graders. But now I'd like to shift to talking more about your role as an instructional coach. And you mentioned to me in an email in an email exchange that none of the teachers at your current school are using MCP are implementing in their classes. And so I'd be interested to hear as their instructional coach who is like steeped in MCP, if you're leaning on MCP techniques to help them foster collaboration, or I guess, just for anything, like, I guess my question is, how does MCP show up in your coaching of these teachers? And I don't mean like, necessarily, are you mentoring them? Like this is how to use a pacing tracker, or this is this and that? Is that right? From MCP. But just in general, like, are you using principles? Or is that something that you're that is informing your coaching? Megan Kindred 28:10 Yeah, I think kind of a more abstract way than like concrete way it does. I really feel like I came to MCP because I wanted to be able to give each of my students what they really needed. And I tried to bring that to my coaching, where I'm like meeting each teacher where they are and giving them what they individual ly need, which I mean is a great aspect of instructional coaching is that it really is a one on one interaction more so than teaching a classroom of students. Collaboration is like a huge strength in my school. So I don't do a ton of coaching on supporting teachers in implementing collaboration in their classroom. Outside of maybe math, we kind of have more of a shift towards discourse in math in our district, and really encouraging that like student a student talk. But I do like I aspire to use the model with my teachers actually and more of our like, whole school. Professional development we do I haven't made it there yet. As I said, I'm new at my school. So a lot of this year as an instructional coach has been relationship building and learning about the program. My my school does a whole chunk of the day where students are in blended grade levels. So kindergarten, first and second grade spend parts of their day together, third, fourth and fifth grade, and then sixth, seventh, and eighth, and they're all blended together and they are working together on what are called teams. And it's a very cool program. But so that there really is a lot have collaboration going on there. And there was a lot for me personally to learn about how the program works. But I do think that the real foundation of like, what I try to help my teachers with and do with them is that really meeting students and then the teacher is also with like, what they need as individuals, and not just trying to teach the majority of students. Yeah. Zach Diamond 30:28 And that's cool. I hadn't quite thought about it that way. But it's more like you are using MCP, to deliver coaching in the same way that you would use it to deliver instruction to students. And that allows you to personalize that coaching. So that's, that's really cool. I understand it that way. Now, I have you have you suggested to any of these teachers that they try out like, oh, you should try a pacing tracker, or you should try like video instruction or something like that. Megan Kindred 30:55 So I'm working up toward it. My I actually work in a district that has a partnership with MCP. So as we get closer, I'm trying to encourage some people to try out Summer Institute and see or summer virtual mentorship. So I'm trying to encourage people to try that out. A little bit. But you know, I have worked with another coach who is at a different school in my district, and she just had a fifth grade teacher who learned about it and started doing the model. And she told me yesterday that he's now trying to convince everyone in the school to do it. And I was like, oh, that's what happens. And that's what happens. Zach Diamond 31:34 That's whatever else to do it. Yeah, that's hilarious. That's 100% accurate. That was definitely the case. In my school. It's spread like I was about to silica virus, and then that was the year before COVID. So maybe I won't go there. But yeah, that is 100%. What happened at my school too. Okay, so this is really interesting. And I, a question just occurred to me, like, the next question that I wanted to ask you, is about collaboration at the teacher level. But it occurred to me that if, you know, I normally attend grade level meetings, I happen to be in the seventh grade, like grade level this year. And so I attend seventh grade meetings, right? But if these kids are being grouped in these sort of like, large swaths by multiple grade bands, is there collaboration across grade levels as well, like, I guess, let me back up. I do want to just ask you more broadly about adult collaboration, a collaboration at the teacher level. But that actually struck me as a really interesting question, like, that's another level of collaboration that I don't normally engage in at my school. And so I would love to hear about like cross grade collaboration in preparing for those big blocks. Yeah, so Megan Kindred 32:45 it's a very small school. So there actually is only like, there's one teacher who teaches third grade math. And so that third through fifth grade, for example, those teachers are essentially a team. So whereas like, you would say, you have a grade level team. They are a grade level team, and there are three of them. And so that's just the size of the school. My last school I was at where I was teaching the fifth graders, I was the only fifth grade teacher. So it was the same size and same kind of like, also a K eight. So we had like one class per grade level in the elementary. And then that's why I taught all three grade levels of middle school, I taught sixth, seventh and eighth grade, because I was the only English teacher in the building. So yeah, it's interesting because of that. So it's like your team becomes like the other people who teach something similar to you. So which I think ties in well, what you're asking about, like adult collaboration. So I never had I did when I taught in California, I had a I was at a larger school and had like, departments. But at my prior school, when I was teaching middle school, like we had a middle school team, and so there was one math teacher, one English teacher, one science teacher, one history teacher, and then specialist. And so when we would have our grade level, or our department meetings, they were the whole Middle School. And so a lot of the collaboration was a cross curricular and things like that. Got it. Zach Diamond 34:22 Got it. And so, maybe my perspective here is as coming from just a bigger school, like, I mean, I mean, a great level and I'm also in a subject department and we meet separately. And, you know, like they'll have in our, in our Friday, PD time, like either department time, or grade level time. And like that's, maybe that's just the bias that I'm bringing to this to this question. Like I I'm just curious to hear more about adult collaboration from the perspective of a coach because I've had experiences where I was put in meetings with other teachers that basically just wound up being like administrative busy work, you know, like Not, we've been in department meetings where like, we went out talking about something that wasn't related to the hours, you know, or it just felt like a formality for the school to like, check a box and say, Look, we're putting the teachers in meetings, and they're collaborating, you know, but the the initiatives, sometimes they like, roll out these big initiatives, and then they never pan out. And, you know, for whatever reason, we just had the meeting, and worked really hard on it maybe once, but then it just never happened. On the other hand, not to be all doom and gloom, I have also collaborated really well with other teachers to like design, really cool student facing stuff. And I think especially people outside of my department, like to develop interdisciplinary units and things like that. And that interests me like that is what felt to me like meaningful collaboration. And so I guess my question that I'm sort of circling around us, as an instructional coach, how do you approach your coaching and, you know, work with your teachers to encourage that kind of meaningful collaboration that really results in things that students will interface with? Megan Kindred 36:08 Yeah, I think it's similar to like, collaboration with students in that like, it works best when it's authentic, because I've totally had those exact same experiences. And I remember, my last school I was at was an IB school. And it was that like, we have to have X number of interdisciplinary units as a IB school. And it was hard, because like you would get it was almost like you got paired up. And it's like you to write an interdisciplinary unit together. And those never seem to turn into anything. That's Zach Diamond 36:43 that's actually exactly what I was talking about. When I thought of the initiatives that don't pan out. That's exactly what I was talking about. Yeah. Megan Kindred 36:50 Where it's like, I have this really great memory of like, our I used to carpool but the Spanish teacher, and like, so I knew what she was teaching, there was one time where I was like, Oh, my gosh, that would tie in so well with some like what we're doing in language arts, and we created this whole interdisciplinary thing that was like art, Spanish, and poetry and language arts, and it was great. And it just came out of the fact that we happen to carpool together, and I knew what she was going to be teaching. And I thought that it would tie in well with what I was teaching. And yeah, so I think the more authentic, it can be, the better. And so that's really what I try to do as a instructional coach is like, if I'm going to plan something for say, like a staff meeting, where everybody's going to do something together. One, I much like with my students, I try to make it something where people can just work with the people they're already sitting with. Or, or, like if it's their team, because that's who you know, it's going to apply to something like that. But doing that, and then making it something that feels really relevant and applicable to what is happening. And something. I mean, it's like professional development in general, we all the best professional development is something you can go back to your classroom and use the next day. Right. So like something where like, we're collaborating on something that has a real goal in mind, that will come up soon, and not be some distant like, next year, you'll do this or something like that. I tried to make it like more short, short term things that are going to really just be something somebody could apply the next day, if they chose. Zach Diamond 38:36 And I think there has to be some amount of like serendipity to it as well, you know, you mentioned like, carpooling with a Spanish teacher, it's really hard, I think to be told, like, Okay, you two need to plan an interdisciplinary unit within the next month, right. But it's like, ah, we both already have units that are running. And they're like, just different units of work, we can like, try and fit it in, but it really just feels like we're checking the box, literally, we're just checking the box to say this unit is interdisciplinary, when this unit that you planned out, is just like, wow, you're doing this, and I'm doing this. And we could totally, like, combine these. And that is more authentic, because it's coming from you all and not being sort of imposed on you. But it's also serendipitous, because you happen to be teaching things that work together at the same time, and it's not forced, you know, and if it is forced, it feels forced. And sometimes you gotta just let let it happen when it happens, you know? I mean, I understand I think that like teachers, I would imagine, maybe this is just me, but I would imagine that most teachers are probably like pro interdisciplinary work, right? It's definitely a good thing. But it's just so hard to plan logistically. And so that's why when I thought of that, or when you told me that story, I thought of like, there just needs to be some degree of like, chance. You know, it has to just work and sometimes it does. Same, but when it does, both teachers are like, Yeah, let's do this. And I can show them this. And they can do this in my class and then bring it over to your classroom, or whatever the case may be. Yeah. Megan Kindred 40:09 And I think one of the things I love, something happened today, with teachers, I was coaching, which is that in a PLC, one teacher was reflecting and just kind of telling me a story about something that happened in his class. And then I was meeting with another teacher later, who had kind of overheard part of it. And like, I shared more about it in that situation. And it was just kind of like, they weren't actually together for the conversation. But it was like a form of collaboration that just came from, like, people feel uncomfortable sharing what they're doing. I think it's just like, were kind of it allows for that authenticity and that like, like you said, serendipity of like, Oh, you did that. Oh, that sounds cool. I wonder if that would work in my class. Things like that, I think are great, too. Yeah, Zach Diamond 41:00 totally. I guess I shouldn't have said chance. I think serendipity was the right word. Like, the stuff is happening in our classrooms there, it can't happen. But like you said, there has to be trust, you said that at the very beginning of the episode, in relation to students, but like, there has to be trust, and there has to be that freedom to sort of talk about the stuff that we're doing. And then we can find those serendipitous, like moments that, that we could connect and collaborate on. And I think that that, that's actually a fantastic sort of tie in to the idea of collaboration and what makes collaboration good. You know, it's like, it's not just like, Okay, now we are collaborating, and we're gonna make this together, and I'll contribute this and you'll contribute that it's like, it's more fun than that, you know, it's like, there's this sort of just the sort of fun to it. I don't know how else to describe it. But I like that. And I sort of takeaway here, like, just at a very high level, to let collaboration be fun, both for adults and for students. Because really, why we're here right is to enjoy ourselves. So okay, I saved my I think my weirdest question until the end. Okay. Tell me if this question makes sense. Okay. But I want to talk about student and teacher collaboration, like students and teachers collaborating? And I say that that's a strange question. That's not even a question. I say it's a strange topic, because I feel like in one sense, it's, it's really obvious that we're collaborating, right? Like we're in the classroom working with the kids. That on paper, yes, collaboration, you know, we provide instruction, they learn, we give them feedback, and that continues on. But I feel like in a broader sense, I'm kind of into the idea. I'd like to explore the idea that every single person in the classroom, students, teachers, everyone is playing an equally important role in that little classroom community, right? We're all contributing different things to a common goal, which is growth for everybody. And so in that sense, I mean, I think that like students have a lot to bring to that student teacher collaboration that can go unnoticed if we don't talk about it and highlight it, right, that they're collaborating with us just like we're collaborating with them. And so, I want to talk about this in a way that kind of levels, the playing field, and puts those different roles that we have in sharper relief, while also respecting the fact that both are valuable student and teacher. Right. So this isn't a question, but I'm just wondering, like, can you comment on this idea of collaboration between students and teachers? Yeah, Megan Kindred 43:33 I actually really love this question slash topic. I think that it's a huge thing in like, that we are, yeah, we're all in this classroom together. And it's a collaborative environment. And I used to say, sorry, I'm kind of losing my train of thought. Zach Diamond 43:54 It's a weird question. What can I say? When I taught Megan Kindred 43:57 English to my middle schoolers, I used to say, like, your I used to tell them that there were no right answers. And that's why I loved English is that like, as long as you can defend what you think, in a logical way, like you get to have that opinion? And so I used to tell them, like my interpretations, no more right than yours. It's just my interpretation. I remember having like a question that asked a student like, what they thought the most important thing was in some chapter of a book once, and this was very early on in my teaching career, and they're like, well, what's the right answer? And I was like, Well, I don't know doesn't say what does miss kinderen think it says, What do you think like you are the only one who can give that answer. And just that idea that like, their thoughts have equal value to ours. And I feel like I know a lot of teachers who believe that and run classrooms that function that way, and I think when you really give that ownership to students and let them know that like what they already know and what they already think has value, then they learn better because they believe in themselves. And they know that what they think and say is valued. And so I love situations where students are leading the learning. I mentioned, I talked about this a little earlier. And like all the math curriculum, my districts adopted recently, it's all very about like, you try to solve it, you talk about how you solved it with each other. And that is where the learning happens. It's not a teacher standing in the front of the room, showing you how to solve a math problem. And I think that really allows for that collaboration, because it's collaboration between students, but then when the teacher does get involved, it's almost more just like they are they're either acting as a facilitator in that collaboration, or they're just an equal party in it, because the way I might solve a problem, dividing decimals, I used that example earlier, but like, of dividing decimals might be a different way than a student does it. But as long as we're both doing it in a way that results in finding the correct answer, then it's my what I'm contributing isn't right, because I'm the teacher. Yeah. Zach Diamond 46:15 And I feel like you could also, you can also then, like, see how they did it and be like, hey, maybe that's actually a better way to show a fifth grader how to divide decimals, right? And try it on another student. And if they get it quicker, you're like, okay, cool. Like, that gave me some insight into how a fifth grader thinks about dividing decimals. You know, maybe I've wrong. I've never taught students to divide decimals. But That definitely happens in my class. Megan Kindred 46:43 I think that's totally right. And like, how much power I feel like, instead of you teaching it like, then that kid gets to teach the other kid too, right? Like, right, everybody gets to be a teacher, and everybody gets to be a student. Oh, okay. Zach Diamond 46:56 I see what you're saying too. Yeah. So like they by you saying, oh, that's totally a valid way of doing it, then they're like, Oh, I'm a I'm a pro. Now. I'm like, the decimal dividing pro over here. So I'm going to go teach other people to, I get it, I see. That's cool. I have had, this is a little bit different. From the opposite perspective, from the teacher perspective, I've been working with my students, I don't teach instrumental music, I teach very digital silent music. But I do have this one unit that we're in right now, where they build instruments, and they've learned to play them, you know, and I, I bring many, many, many years of like, intensive percussion study to this class, right? So I, for the most part, I'm like, better than my middle school students, not all of them always, I don't always assume that I will be because sometimes I'm not. But generally, like, I sit down with them. And I have them, like, Sing me their ideas, or like, roughly sketch out their ideas. And then I use that expertise that I have on this drum, you know, to be like, Oh, do you mean this, like, bop, bop, whatever, you know, I play what I think that they're thinking. And they're like, Yeah, that's it exactly. Or maybe they're like, No, I meant to do it like this. And then I fixed it. And so like, I'm using sort of my expertise in playing this drum, to combine that with their, I guess, creative thinking in developing music. And I guess, in one sense, when we're not on an equal playing field, because I have a set of skills and quite a bit of experience playing percussion, right. But like, it's very collaborative, as we sort of sit there together and develop their idea. And I bring what I have to developing their idea. Does that make sense? Megan Kindred 48:42 Yeah, and I think that's true. And like other like, disciplines, too, right. Like I mentioned, you know, my ideas aren't better than a students necessarily, but we do come with I mean, we're older, we have expertise, we have degrees, right to say we get to teach these subjects. And, yeah, so if I'm going to go write a literary analysis essay, I'm going to do it better than a fifth grader, because I have four years of experience. But the idea is I come up with might not be any better. And I feel like that's what you're getting at to, like you have more expertise with the percussion, but like the the creative or artistic side of it, is an individual thing. And a student can bring theirs yes to it. And they that has great value. Zach Diamond 49:28 Yeah, I just watched a really interesting documentary on HBO called stand up and shout, which I'll link in the show notes. It's like an hour long, people should go and watch it. It's very good. And it's it's sort of similar to what I was describing, where it's a bunch of music students. It's a music class at the Philadelphia School. that winds up like making an album because they have these sort of like local musicians come in and help them like develop their ideas. There's these lots of scenes where you see them like developing ideas with the class and same idea like the professionals bring In their skills to this class, which has a bunch of ideas, and together in the middle, they develop something really, really amazing. They're high schoolers. So that's older than my students. But it's a similar idea. And I just liked the idea of like, we're all contributing something. I have one set of expertise, right and skills, and the students have something else. Both are equally valid. And together, we make something even better. Megan Kindred 50:26 Yeah, that sounds great. That sounds like a good check that went out. Cool. Zach Diamond 50:30 So Megan, this is fantastic. I feel like we took some weird turns there at the end, maybe it was just me. I couldn't, I couldn't quite figure out how to articulate that last question. But I just wanted to talk about student teacher collaboration, because I feel like it's something that goes under appreciated. Because it's almost too obvious to even talk about right, but anywho as we wrap up, tell me about what goals you have. I know you're just starting out now as an instructional coach in your first year. So what do you hope to see in the future? Megan Kindred 51:00 I, I think one one thing I would love is to have a teacher who I coach, do modern, go through the mentorship program and try out modern classroom. I think also kind of like what we're talking about one of my big goals as an instructional coach is help build helping to build classrooms where students are really facilitating the learning. So that's, that's, that's something that I that's a goal I have for supporting teachers and doing that. Zach Diamond 51:31 That's awesome. Yeah. And that definitely involves collaboration with the teacher. Because, yeah, get the teacher has the knowledge and the kids can do the learning. So cool. Well, Megan, how can our listeners connect with you? They'd like to talk to you more about collaboration. Megan Kindred 51:49 I think my modern classroom email is probably the best direct method. I'm guessing you could link that in the show notes. So I can indeed, yeah, I'm not on a lot of fate of social media. I am on Facebook, largely for the modern classroom project group. That tends to be one of the things I do the most on social media. So that's another place people can find me. Fantastic. Zach Diamond 52:18 That's great. That Facebook group is intimidating to me. It's so huge. I love it. I go through there sometimes I just look at all the cool stuff. Fantastic. Well, Meghan, thank you so much. This has been amazing. I really mean it. I love talking about collaboration. And I love just imagining little kids running around and like helping each other. You know, it's just so cute to imagine, because my eighth graders they're many things but they're not cute. So, anyway, Meghan, thank you so much for joining me, this has been a pleasure. Megan Kindred 52:50 Thank you so much. Zach Diamond 52:52 I really enjoyed it. listeners. Remember, you can always email us at podcast at modern classrooms.org. And you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast dot modern classrooms.org/ 186. We'll have this episode with the recap and transcripts uploaded to the modern classrooms blog on Friday. So be sure to check back there. Or check back in the show notes for this episode, if you'd like to access those. And we are asking our listeners to leave a review if this podcast has been helpful in supporting you to create a blended, self paced, mastery based learning environment where collaboration is happening, those of us to help others to find the podcast so we'd really appreciate that. Otherwise, thank you all so much for listening. Thank you Megan. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday. Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work at WWW dot modern classrooms.org. And you can learn the essentials of our muddle through our free course at Learn dot modern classrooms.org. You can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at modern class prize that's p r o j we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the modern classrooms project podcast.