Podcast 1h - Henderson === Jean: [00:00:00] Okay, with me today discussing chapter one of William Holtzclaw's Black Man's Burden is Dr. Eldridge Henderson. Dr. Eldridge Henderson has a long connection to the Utica campus, to Hinds Agricultural High School, and to Utica Junior College. Welcome. Dr. Henderson. Dr. H: Thank you, Ms. Greene. Thank you. Jean: What we're going to talk about today is the very first chapter and I wanted you with me to talk about that, Dr. Henderson, because I want us to sort of set the tone for what the other discussions are going to be for this book. I want us to start off In the same manner, how do you say it? Start it like you want to end it. So I'm starting with the man I want to help me get it launched in the right way. When I first came to Utica and was introduced to[00:01:00] William Holtzclaw and this book, I wasn't sure if that was something I wanted to get into, and I started reading it. And the first chapter got me... Interested in where he came from because sometimes when a man goes off and does great work, we forget about where he came from. We don't know how he got to where he ended. So I want you to, to help me ground William Holtzclaw in his time and talk a little bit about how. Who he was and what he did can resonate with us in 2023. So if we could get just into that, when you read the book Dr. Henderson, what did you, what, what impressed you or, or brought to your mind when you started learning about William Holtzclaw? Dr. H: Well, the first [00:02:00] thing that I would like to say is one of the One of the things that impressed me first was that you do not have to have all the economic means to be successful. Jean: Right. Dr. H: If you get early training in discipline, truth, and understanding and compassion for others, you can do almost anything you want. And the other part... Holtzclaw, Mr. Holtzclaw, had a mother and a father in the home that directed his path by modeling what should be done from birth to death. And he picked up those strategies, being kind, being honest, working hard, trying to learn so he could earn and serve and help others in the future. That's what I picked up when I first read it. But matter of fact, throughout the years, I've [00:03:00] read it several times. Mm-Hmm. . And every time I read it, I find something that can help me today. Now, that was written in the early 19 hundreds. Jean: Yeah, 1915. Dr. H: That's right. Something. And today is 2023. And even yesterday when I reviewed it again, I found some things, took some notes of 'em, Uhhuh, and I'm going to use those for the next 15 or 30 years as I work on my different pursuits. Jean: Right. I really like what you said about he had two folks in the home that modeled for him. Modeled the kind of man he needed to be. Modeled what they wanted him to become. Dr. H: That's correct. Jean: Can you expound on that a little bit for us? for our audience on what that means today for us. Dr. H: Well, that's very important, Ms. Green. One of the first things I noticed with Mr. Holtzclaw and his parents both were illiterate. [00:04:00] They were slaves, former slaves. They recently gained their freedom. They had no economic means. They were totally dependent on the plantation owner and his wheeling and dealings where he was always looking out for himself and not for them. Jean: Right. Dr. H: But they were able to get with him. They were in a position to tolerate all of that disharmony that he put in their lives. And, and this man raised six children. Yeah. from a woman that was married previously, twice. He married her. She had three children already. And this illiterate black man and this woman worked together, pooled their little, meagre resources and raised three kids from their marriage and three from her previous marriages. And all of them turned out to be great Americans. That is unusual, even today. [00:05:00] Even today, and I'm talking about 2023. Jean: Right. Right. The fact that they were ex slaves, you're right, that they were illiterate. But they valued education. Dr. H: That's it. That's the difference. And that's why it's so significant. I work with people, as you know, every day. And most of the people I mess with... Don't put serious value on education. They don't want to learn anything. Most of my clients want someone to give them something. And when you find an opportunity for them to get an education, if there's no money involved, they're not going to get involved in it, or work with it. And even if money is involved 95 percent of them will start in the program to get the money and drop out before they get the certification. Now this has been... with me for the last 25 years as I've worked with people, young, middle aged, and [00:06:00] old. They don't have that, that strong desire to get an education so they could change their lives. Jean: Right. Dr. H: Economically, socially, politically, and so forth. Jean: So they, lack the plan, pretty much, that, that Holtzclaw's parents had for them. Dr. H: That's right. Matter of fact, they don't have a plan. Their parents Didn't have a plan and usually don't so therefore they don't model what they want the children to be and Even if they did most have not told them what they want to be. They'd say I just want you to be good That doesn't mean anything and it's too broad. They don't say I want you to be Educated I want you to be a man a woman of honor I want you to have positive self esteem. I want you to work hard and try to own your own business so you can be economically independent. I want you to have a [00:07:00] strong moral value. On and on and on. This is not being taught today. A lot of people don't like to hear it, but it's definitely, it's something that's omitted. In most families that I deal with. I'm only talking about the hundreds and hundreds of families that I deal with currently and have dealt with during the last 50 years. Jean: I understand and I've known you while you were dealing with some of these folks. Dr. H: That's right. Jean: So I know where you're coming from when you're talking. When we, when we look at chapter one and Holtzclaw talks about his birth and his His mother was alone because his father was off working. So the father was working. The father was trying to provide for the family through the sharecropping, through whatever means he could find. And then the mother was also working outside the home as well. So she was not a stay at home mom. She was working at some white folks house, cooking for them. And the father was working somewhere. But they still... [00:08:00] Didn't neglect their children. Dr. H: They most certainly didn't. And the good part about it, they didn't do like some of the current people are doing today, where they worked. They didn't steal and try to get things on the side to take home. His mother was so country interested about being honest, her children were at home starving to death. I mean, literally starving, and she wouldn't even take any food out of the back door. Jean: Right. Dr. H: Secretly to take home for them. She would get pot liquor, the leftovers of the white folks food, and a crust of bread from time to time that she was given and she would take that home in a pot and put the pot in the middle of the floor. And all the kids would get around without spoons or forks and eat with their hands as much as they could because Mr. Hoseclaw said many nights and for two or three days [00:09:00] at a time, he had to wonder where he was going to get a meal. Jean: That's right. So he goes from that, from, from getting the dregs of pot liquor and a crust of bread. To a man who is rubbing shoulders with quote unquote, the elite to get monies for his own educational institution. So he starts from these, can we call them humble beginnings? Dr. H: I would call it something worse than that. It was what we call a null beginning. A null beginning. Which means that he was at a point where he could have starved to death. Died with serious illness or just gave up and left to go and make it on his own when he was 13 or 14. But he didn't do none of that because he had that family value. He was concerned about self, family and his [00:10:00] peers all the time wanting to do better for himself. He wanted to impress his family and he wanted to be what I call You will hear me use that a lot. He wanted to be a great American, even though he was not considered a real American. He was not considered one of any significance. He was not loved by anyone other than his parents and a few others in the community. And He still survived. Jean: When when his mother, and I think it's in this chapter, his mother wanted him to, , and correct me if I'm wrong, when he found some eggs, was it? Dr. H: Yes, it was in chapter one. That's right. Now that was amazing. Tell us that. Well, it's very, very clear that this young man Had reservations about doing wrong, even though he was hungry. Not most [00:11:00] of the time, all the time. And he left he left a place where he was sent by his mother, came back home. And he was crossing a fence. And he saw some eggs, a hen's nest. We call it a nest of eggs. Which was, you know, produced by a hen. Right. That was owned by a white woman. Right. And he sat on that fence for over an hour to decide whether he needed to get those eggs and take them home so he could eat. Right. And he did. He put a few in his pocket. Huh. He took them home. And his mother didn't do as many would do today. She told him, basically, These are not your eggs. They belong to someone else. And you are going to have to go back. and apologize and give this lady her eggs. Right. And that's what he did. That's right. And in the end, she was so appreciative. I'm talking about the white lady. Huh. That he turned the eggs in. She [00:12:00] gave him two eggs. And he left there with those and probably ate them with honor. Right. Versus stealing some and being reprimanded by his mother. Huh. She said, take them back and apologize. And if she hadn't done that, he'd probably been stealing all of his life and taught it to others. That's what you call discipline. Good home training. Jean: Not beating him. They didn't beat him on this. That's right. Dr. H: They didn't do it. But even though they did it a lot. Yeah. But they didn't beat him on this. They talked to him. And that's what a lot of parents don't do today. They don't talk to their children. You know, they fuss at them. I call it fussing. Cussing. Degrading the kids. Making them feel that they have no positive self esteem. And that whips one down to the point where they just want to give up. They don't want to do better. Right. And they will lose that positive psychic where they [00:13:00] want to say to themselves, I'm going to do better. I'm getting out of this situation. Right. And they just get in the mainstream and hustle and tussle and make it day by day. Jean: But he had, going back to what you said earlier she modeled behavior for him every time. Talked to him and said, no, take these back and apologize. And I could, I could see, you know, thinking now, you know, but I found them. They were sitting there by the fence. That's right. But they belonged to the hen that belonged to her. That's right. So teaching him positive moral values. Exactly. Dr. H: And his dad taught some of the similar values that you don't suppose to be very aggressive in situations where it's not mandated. A good example is when he [00:14:00] was told, well, you can read and write a little bit, but your emphasis ought to be in mathematics. And they told him, you just go and study math with the teachers. And by that time, you know, the teachers were not certified or qualified, the black teachers, and the white ones either. But anyway, he studied math for a few days, and according to the book, in just a few days, he reached the maximum level of the teacher. And they would sit there in the class for several days, and he didn't have anything to do. And all of a sudden, the teacher got angry for some reason. Picked up a switch that had been roasted on the fire, a hickory stick, and whipped him so... Jean: Tell me the significance of roasting. Dr. H: Well, you want to make it durable. You want it to last. You don't want it to break. Right. Okay. It is like getting hot iron and roasting it and burning it and making it [00:15:00] strong so it'll last a long time. And sharpen it and the blade will cut through iron, through wood, through anything. And that's what it is with this young boy. The teacher beat him so bad, some of the adults in there had to come and get him off this boy. And he sent him home. He beat him to a point where he had to sit down on a log when he went home to get some rest. Before he got home? Before he got home. And the whipping was so bad, he couldn't get up. So his father had to come and find him at night. To see what happened to my boy and took him home. And that's when he wanted to go back and whip the teacher. Jean: This is the father. Dr. H: The father. And his mother talked to the father and said don't do it. That's not going to make the matter worse. And he didn't do that. But still, young [00:16:00] Holtzclaw learned and made a chance. To put himself in a position where he could be his own president of his own school later on. Jean: Later on. That whole thing with the teacher, because he said in in the book that before they got to a certain level in their blue backed reader, speller book before they got to, I think the word was abasement. Dr. H: That's right. Jean: That they were then, and we're just, we're not talking very far into this book before you get to a basement, you still have several pages and chapters to go. So you just, right at the beginning of the book, then you could be a teacher. Dr. H: That's right. You could be an assistant teacher and work and help others. And that is why the teacher that whipped him felt, in my mind, inferior. He didn't [00:17:00] feel that he was what I call a successful person. He didn't feel that he could be a positive man in the eyes of this young student. And as he was sitting there several days, not teaching the young man, being trained to respect his elders, he was probably just sitting there at his little spot. I'm not going to say at the desk, but on his bench. Huh. With that log. That log serving as his, his table, probably thumbing through the book, and the teacher said, now this is disgraceful, I've let this boy down, I'm feeling bad, he's still sitting here, I'm not able to help him at all, and that caused him to have what I call a psychic breakdown, and he got that switch, and beat that anger in him, out of him, and put it in the child. Oh, no, no, no. Because he didn't see. [00:18:00] Nothing that could be positive. Jean: Oh, so we see a difference in, in adulting then. We have the adult example that his parents gave us. And then this not positive example that this other adult gives us. Dr. H: That's right. He felt inferior. And he didn't think about the fact that we ought to try to sit here and work together. We help each other. Right, right. And that's what he could have done, but this is foresight, not hindsight. Jean: Yes, that's true. So here we go with Holtzclaw then after he survives this beating. He resolves that he's not gonna, he's not gonna do this to his students. Dr. H: That's exactly right. Jean: So there was a lesson to be taught, but not the lesson necessarily the teacher was trying to teach. That, that instance made me think, you know, growing up sometimes we were chastised by our parents. Dr. H: That's exactly right. Jean: And I would think, you know, when [00:19:00] I, when I have children, I am not going to beat them down like they beat us down. But he made that, that, that decision that he wasn't going to be that kind of teacher and he fulfilled that every time. That's right. He did. He did. We're here in 2023 and things are so different in education. That is, and I know, you know, of course, you know there are, there are things that, that are, They're edited and, and we are discouraged from learning in a lot of ways. What do you think Holtzclaw would think about the way we are in 2023 in our educational position? Dr. H: He would be very disappointed. I think he would look at the situation that we have today in education, and our economic development status, and see that there's unlimited [00:20:00] opportunities for black people. Right. And he would probably go to bed every night with tears in his eyes when he would see the progress that we are not making and the opportunities are there unlimited because now if you don't have money to attend school, the bus will pick you up free. Right. You can go to school. You get free books. You have teachers that are so called certified and you can learn. and earn, get a certificate or in some kind of certification and move on to the next level. And when you move to the next level, if you don't have any money, currently they have something called work study, student loans, scholarships and so forth. And you can make it and reach the goals if you have any. But he will see today that 90 percent of the black people in America Don't take [00:21:00] advantage of that opportunity today that we have. Versus when he didn't have anything and he would walk miles to school. That's right. Without shoes. Cause he didn't put his shoes on, he didn't have any shoes until he was 15 years of age. And he would walk without shoes all during the winter until Christmas. Jean: That's right, he sure did say that. Dr. H: That's a fact. And now we want the latest shoes, we want the latest clothing, we want all the name brands. And our parents would get it for us, even if they can't afford it. They would borrow money to buy tennis shoes. Shirts and pants with someone's name on it. False hair for their daughters and sons with someone's name on it. That's true. That costs four and five and six hundred dollars. That's true. Versus paying their rent or paying their car note or trying to buy a [00:22:00] home. Jean: You know, and further down, and I'm skipping out of chapter one now because you made me think of something. When Holtzclaw set up his Black Belt Improvement Society. And there were ten degrees. He would talk to them, when he would talk to them in the chapel, about not spending money on things like that. Dr. H: That's right. Jean: To forego getting, what did he say, his, getting your wife the best new calico dress. Or a hat, you know, put that money into your farm, put that money into buying a house. And I remember when some of the older farmers would come and talk to him about the farmers conferences. They would mention the ones that made it had to make sacrifices. So here we are, I'm going back to chapter one now, and [00:23:00] there is Holtzclaw telling us about the sacrifices his parents endured, right? What kind of sacrifices are we willing to make? Dr. H: We are not willing to make any sacrifices. We want, I told you before, we want something free, or something that is easy to obtain, that doesn't require a lot of hard work or focus. We don't have what we call, what I call, continuous focus to reach our goal. If we decide we want to get to point B from point A and we have a little, little difficulty, a lot of us give up. We say, well, I'm going to do that later. And you know when you say you're going to do it later, you usually don't. It is like dropping out of school and say, I'm going back next semester. Next semester. You have purchased a car, you have started a family, you have used credit cards to the point where you are [00:24:00] broke, you owe a lot of debt, and you don't go back the next semester, you say, well, I'm going to go back in the fall, and on and on, and by the time you turn 60, you still have that 11th grade, or that one year college experience, and you're still working for others, making less than what I call a livable wage because of your procrastination and that lack of training that you had. Right. Through your parents, that I can get away with waiting for something good to happen. You don't wait for things good to happen, you have to make them happen. Jean: Oh, okay. So this is, again, is the example that, that this man's parents gave us. Because even though they were caught up in that, that cycle that, that that, that sharecropper cycle. That's right. They [00:25:00] dreamed and tried to get outside of that cycle. Dr. H: And let me tell you something, Miss Green. That, that part in chapter one was so specific. Until I didn't have to read it when I got to that sharecropper part. Because the first 17 years of my life, I lived on a plantation. First 17 years, and we had the same system. Where we worked on shares. We didn't own anything. We didn't own the house. We didn't own the mill. We didn't own the plow. We didn't own the land. We didn't even own nothing but the children. And that was what I call a literal ownership. Because the white man determined when the children would work. When the children would go to school. So the parents had no say so of the [00:26:00] child's productivity for themselves, but the white man determined when and where you worked and where you went to school, and that's the same way Mr. Holtzclaw had to maneuver through his life. Right. But he didn't let it stop him. Jean: That's right. So there, there is no excuse, but we make one. We make one. Why do we make an excuse? Dr. H: Well, because of we're looking at others. I believe we make our excuses because we want to do like the neighbor that's doing allegedly better than we are. Jean: Allegedly, that's right. Dr. H: His child wears better clothing. His child today has a car and he's just 16 or 17. His child is going to college. But you don't understand where... Did he get those clothing? Where did his [00:27:00] dad get money to buy that car? How is this young man going to college? Right. That's right. Did the dad work for those resources that put him in that situation? Or, was he doing something illegal? Selling whiskey. Selling drugs. Stealing. Hustling. For a living. To take care of his family. And that's what a lot of people are doing today. So we don't have as much character. And, and work and not determined to be successful like Holtzclaw and his family. Jean: Let's talk about work ethic. Right. Sometimes I think people won't even understand what that means. And that's, that I get from some of the examples that I see. Can you talk a little bit about what work ethic means, especially in relation to where we are and where Holtzclaw was? Dr. H: Well, it's [00:28:00] totally different. Now, Holtzclaw knew that he wasn't going to get anything at all unless he worked for it. Right. And he always knew that if he... He wanted to get ahead, he would have to learn something, and that's why he put emphasis on being a better person through education. And one of the things that impressed me about his, his life, every time someone would tell him that you have potential, right, he didn't forget it, and he wanted to always impress those people. So he would always try to do the best he could because he believed that. You know, when he was born, when his father was gone, his father left there. And he would always come back in about three months because he was working for a railroad company making a dollar a day. Jean: That's right, he sure was. Dr. H: And had to buy his [00:29:00] uniform, had to pay room and board. So after three months he would come home with forty or fifty dollars. Then he would have to go and pay his rent because he wasn't working on the plantation at the time. And the plantation owner would take most of that. Right. So he had to go back and work three more months and come back. And be broke in a day or two. Jean: That's right. Why do we not understand the value of work? Dr. H: Well, because we found that we have been put, I call in a induced sleep by the government. You know, the government has told black people that you don't have to work too much these days. We're going to take care of you. If you don't have food, we'll give you food stamps. If you don't have a house to live in, we'll put you in an apartment and pay your rent. [00:30:00] If you don't have any education, we'll give you some money to go to school if you want to go to school. And, when you get that. Versus saying, if you want a house, you got to work. And make money to pay your rent. If you need to go to school, you have to do like Holtzclaw. You have to find a way to go to school and work to do it. But they don't do that anymore. Jean: No. The idea that and sometimes I think it has more to do with what's internal because for myself and yourself I want to have a vision of what I want to achieve, a goal, and a means towards getting to that goal. Doesn't mean that there's a straight line to it because it's ups and downs and getting to where that is. That's right. But the first time [00:31:00] some of us get to a little hill, it's not even a mountain, we want to say. No, that's all. That's it. I'm through. I'm done. That's right. Dr. H: It's too difficult. Yeah. It's too difficult. Instead of pausing and trying to figure out a way to make that next step. Right. Should I go and seek support from someone? Should I talk to someone that I know down the road that went up these stairs in life? And they're at the top of the stairs and I'm down in the middle. What did they do to get to the next level? Because I knew them when they were living in the community. And now they are doing great things. And here I am can't even get to the next level. We don't go and talk to people and find out how they made it. And many of us have been able to do that. I know I had. Because I came up as, you know, like, Holtzclaw. We [00:32:00] didn't have anything. I told you that. But I just couldn't see myself living on that plantation after I left home. And I tell people all the time, now, we own part of that plantation. Because we bought it. My daddy is still living there. But he owns it. Part of it. He owns his part of it. That's right, that he bought from the man that we used to live on his plantation. Jean: I'll be doggone. Dr. H: That's right. So that's what you have to look at. He taught us the same thing. He called us childr'n. Y'all childr'n need to go and get you some land. Buy you some land. Better own your own house. Jean: Nobody can put you out of your own house. Dr. H: That's exactly what he would say. And so you better get a little of that education. You know, I always use that term. That's the way they talk to us. Yeah. Boy, you better go and learn something now. [00:33:00] You better learn something. Say, you better learn something. Jean: Get you some land. Put you a house on that land. That's right. Can't nobody put you out of your own stuff. Dr. H: That's right. He used to say, you get you a house, we don't do nothing to get you a trailer. That's what he told us. Believe it or not, when I made my first dollars, I got me a trailer and put it on someone else's land. I rented a spot for 25 a month and put a trailer, a brand new trailer on it because I was listening to my dad and I wanted to impress him. One day I told him, I got my own house, dad, I got my own house and I was in my twenties. I didn't tell him I didn't own the land. And he saw my little old three bedroom trailer. He thought I had a mansion. Because everything in that thing was new. All the furniture was new. It was hooked up. We had lights. We had, you know, two bathrooms in [00:34:00] there. Two bathrooms? Oh, yeah. He thought I was living like a king. And I could barely pay that 52 a month that I was paying on that note for 30 years. But I made it. Next few years I went and bought a lot and moved my trailer and put it on my lot. Right down the road here in Utica. Trying to do like Holtzclaw. Jean: Having your own, having your own land, having a house on your land. Cause it's ten degrees, and I know I'm getting ahead of the story, but it's ten degrees. The first one was you just had to have desire. Dr. H: That's right. That's, that's, that's excellent. I remember reading that. Matter of fact, I'm going to put that in what I call the Henderson version. Come on, Henderson. And start teaching that, man. In some of my podcasts. Right. Right. And in my other presentations. Jean: Right. I said, that's, that's some valuable stuff. Dr. H: That's very significant. Jean: You know, when he said, and I [00:35:00] know we're getting off topic a little bit, but he said, you know, the first one, you have to have the desire. The second one, you gotta have a little house. Two room, two or three room house. And, and land. A little bit of land. And then it just gets, it gets exponentially bigger. Until you get to the tenth degree, you need a thousand acres of land. And I'm like, okay. And the only people who were exempt were the folks who had kids in school. If you had a child in school, he'd give you some time to work on that. Dr. H: That's right. But keep that child in school. Jean: Keep that child in school. Oh my goodness. Dr. H: That's amazing. We don't even know about that today. That's why I'm going to start teaching that. Jean: Yes, because sometimes, we just need a plan. That's all. You know, I was saying earlier that sometimes folks don't know what work ethic is. But that gets back to, nobody's [00:36:00] modeled it for. That's right, exactly. Cause I, you know, you talk about growing up, Dr. Henson. My folks used to tell my brother and I, that going to school was our job. They had, they had the jobs to keep the lights on and get food on the table. Our job was to get an education. Dr. H: See how smart your parents were? And they were doing good economically. You said their job was to keep the lights on. Huh. See we didn't have no lights. We had a lamp. Oh. You see. Huh. And sometimes when my dad couldn't buy oil for the lamp. We'll use a candle or, two, until he got some money. Jean: To put oil in the lamp. Dr. H: He couldn't afford it all the time. I'm talking about in the 40s and early 50s. See, there were six of us. Wow. And two adults. Huh. In a little house. A little shotgun. Huh. I know what a shotgun house is. No running water. No heaters. One [00:37:00] fireplace. And a kitchen with a stove in it, Uhhuh. And that was your central heat? Jean: That was your central heat. Oh. But you know, you know, we, we, we think about what, you look back and think about what you didn't have. It's like I was thinking about what, you know, we, what we had and didn't have. And I'm talking my time is a little after yours. Yeah. I'm talking late fifties, early sixties. That's right. That's right. And, daddy would give mother, cause dad, dear, both of them worked outside the home. Daddy would give mother, on Saturday when we went to town to get groceries, he gave her 20. That 20 was what she used to buy groceries for herself, for daddy, for me and my baby brother. That 20 fed us for the week. And she would save out enough to reward me and my brother [00:38:00] for, you know, being in school and whatever. So he would have enough money saved out to get him a Hot Wheels car, a little toy. And she had saved out enough so I could have a little book. Cause they would sell little children's books in the grocery stores then. So I could get one of the classics, which were classics, white writers. That's right. That's right. And because there was no black writers, you didn't see any there. But so that's where I would get the Bopsy Twins, the, the, the My Friend Flicka, all those kind of little Whitman books. But I, I think back on that, Dr. Henderson, I'm like, how did that woman feed four people on 20 and still save out? Something to reward the children. So we didn't even know we was poor. Dr. H: Of course. And that's what the Holtzclaws did. Right. When they went to the plantation owner and got the little food, the little strip of bacon, a little flour. Right. That didn't feed those Those [00:39:00] six children and two adults, they have to go out there and find a possum or a rabbit. Go and pick some berries. Get some plums and walnuts and other nuts out in the field. Right. In the wild. That's right. And come back and eat it. Cook it. And they too, they didn't know they were poor. Right. But they learned how to survive. That's right. And I bet they were saying to themselves, one day I'm going to do better. Jean: I'm not going to have to eat a possum. Dr. H: Doggone right. Jean: You know, thinking about that too thinking about them, not knowing, that idea of not knowing that you're poor. You know you're missing something, but you don't really know how much you're missing. Dr. H: And that's good. Sometimes it's good to not know certain things. Right. See, if you know across the river, they have a stream of gold. And all you got to do is go down there and pick it up and put it in your bag and go and get it [00:40:00] exchanged for what you need. If you don't know that, and you've been only taught to work, struggle, try to survive. Help your family members. And you don't know nothing else. That's all you got. No to do it. That's what you do. Mm hmm. That's true. And the gold that I mentioned is what the government did to black folks when they put them on welfare. Huh. When they said, well, can't go to school, you get a loan. And you go to school just to get the loan and don't even know what you're gonna major in. Jean: Right. And you use that money for something that's not school. Dr. H: That's right. Exactly right. You go buy cars, new clothing. Get in school, drop down to six hours. And you don't know that you, your money gonna be cut off. That's right. Then you got a problem, educationally. Jean: Then it's not a grant, it's a loan. Now you gotta [00:41:00] pay that back and you have nothing to show for it. Dr. H: That's right. Hmm. And I know hundreds of them like that today in their 50s That old student loan that dropped out. And then on top of that, when they didn't have the means to do anything, they would get a credit card. I have a lot of clients now, 10, 20, 30, 40, 000 worth of credit card. They don't own the home, they're living in apartments. Or they're living with relatives. And usually when they get in that mid 50s and beyond, They start getting sick and they most certainly not going to improve economically after 55 in most cases. Right. Right. And they just get worse. Jean: That's true. That's true for the most part. I guarantee you. I do. I've enjoyed this. I always enjoy talking to you. Dr. H: Thank you, [00:42:00] ma'am. I appreciate the opportunity. Jean: And, and sometime I may want you to come back and let's talk some more about this. Dr. H: Well, if you need that, need that to happen, just set it up. Jean: I, I will certainly do that because I, I value your insight. I always do. And when we're talking about whatever the issue is, I always learn something from you. Your take on. Holtzclaw's family, that whole idea of modeling had never really occurred to me. And it's so plain now that you said it. The idea of that family of eight people, similarly your family of eight people. That resonated with me after I'm thinking about how My folks did in the 60s, you know, doing things and, and, and pulling together their little bit, their little meager [00:43:00] earnings. Dr. H: Well, let me tell you something. You know, I didn't know anything about Holtzclaw until in the 70s or 80s. Okay. You know, about his life. Oh, right. Okay. But I was fortunate enough. to attend this school when it was called Utica Institute before it became a public institution. Oh, okay, yeah. And I came down here with nothing, just like a Holtzclaw the only thing that got me through was I was able to ride the bus every day and didn't have to live in the dormitory. If I had to live in the dormitory... I would still probably be on that plantation today because I never would've been able to get that little old, so-called AA degree from here. Mm-Hmm. in general studies, which wasn't very much of anything. Right. But I had a little certification called [00:44:00] Two Year College certified in general studies. Mm-Hmm. . Now what could you do with general studies? But I thought I had a college degree. Jean: Well, you did. Dr. H: Yeah, I did , but, but I couldn't do nothing with it. And I remember my parents making that, the predominant thing, you all got to finish school. And they were modeling that themselves. Making ends meet. Where they could buy a few clothing here and there. My mother had a sewing machine. She could get old clothes and make new clothes out of, you see. She was able to buy a book every now and then that all of us could read. She couldn't buy no individual book, or she would get one from somewhere and make us read it. And of course I didn't want to do that. You didn't want to do that? But I had to do it. Jean: I remember Dr. Henderson, and I know I'm getting out of time Dr. H: . I didn't know... You can edit all this out. Jean: Yeah, I'm gonna do that. The I [00:45:00] didn't know anything about spent over half my life, well, As a librarian, and I didn't even know there was such a thing outside of my school library until I was almost grown. Because in the little town that we went to to make groceries, there was a library, but it wasn't open to Black folks. That's right, exactly. So that made sense that my mother would get me a book, cause she knew I couldn't have access to a book fridge in the summertime. Cause when I wasn't in school. And then... There were people who traveled around to sell encyclopedias. That's right, that's right. So, we didn't get a set every year. Or every other year. But we would have a set to help us do our homework. Dr. H: See how fortunate you were? When they would come to our house, we never got a set because it cost too much. We never got a set of encyclopedias. Wow. [00:46:00] A few neighbors might get one from time to time. And sometimes I would borrow one of their books and say, let me look at it. I didn't say read it, let me look at it and I bring it back. And that's exactly what I would do with it, get it and look at the pictures. I didn't have good reading skills and pick a word here and there and eventually take it back. Right. But I was learning there. You were learning there. I was learning a little about. History, Geography, Literature. Jean: I think about how fortunate students are now they've got this access to the technology that lets them go do all the searching. My internet was my world book encyclopedia. That's right, exactly, exactly. And that, that was enough. Dr. H: See, that's why you were so successful, see. You had a good... beginning. And a lot of us didn't have that good beginning. Okay, yes. See, you [00:47:00] are very successful. And you got that good support at home. Because your parents figured out how to maneuver and save a penny or two. They maneuvered around. But my folks couldn't. Jean: And said, you know, some of the children around, and like you said, I didn't realize how fortunate we were. Their, their parents would keep them out of school. That's right. And whatever. But we didn't get to have a sick day. My brother and I didn't get to have a sick day and stay home. No. Because your child was going to school. That's right. And if I got to get up and go to work, then you got to get up and go to school. Dr. H: You most certainly were right about that. We had the same policy. I didn't know nothing about being sick. I got up with a headache. I didn't feel good. That's right. And I told Mom that. Get up, boy. Get up, daddy. Daddy would say, get up, son. And you got up the second time, he told you. Because he had some [00:48:00] encouragement. Jean: For the third time. Dr. H: You got up. And you didn't have to worry about that anymore because when they would say, time to get up, y'all. Yeah. We got up, whether we wanted to or not. That's right. Because you had to get up, go in there, and wash up. Huh. And sit down at that table and eat that bacon. That's right. Eat that breakfast. And those molasses. And if you were lucky, you might have some grits or rice to go along with it, special on Sunday. That's right. And that was life, every day. That's right. Did nobody go to work and leave people in the bed? Jean: Nuh no, that was not happening. That was not happening at that house. That you, you know, everybody gonna get up and get up out of this house. Dr. H: I call people now that have appointments with me. At nine, at ten, or at eleven. And I call them, I'm waiting for you. It's ten minutes after nine. I haven't gotten up yet. And I'm talking about grown people. Oh, see, I ain't got time for that. See, they make the appointment [00:49:00] with me with the day that they're off work. Huh. And many of them come in late. I'm not up yet. That makes me mad. I guarantee. Jean: I, you know, there, there, there's that thing about modeling and being prompt. We were taught, you know, you, you, you gonna get there if, if your appointment is at 9. You getting there at 8. 45. Dr. H: That's right. My appointment today was 1. 30. Yeah. I got here around 1 o'clock, so I reviewed the campus and went in and out of there. I didn't want to be late. Right. I just couldn't afford to be late. I would have been embarrassed to be late. And being late. Jean: They do not care about it at all. No sir, they sure don't. Dr. H: They think it's an honor to be late to walk in there, and a lot of them don't apologize. They just don't think nothing wrong with it. Don't speak. And usually those kind of people usually don't have the education and economic means to show that they have been responsible [00:50:00] at any time.