[00:00:00] Thank you for tuning in to Sips from the Sipp. Today we are welcoming to our program, Dr. Sophia Marshall Chapman. Dr. Sophia Marshall Chapman is a former employee of the Utica Campus of Hinds Community College. She, while she was here, was the director of teacher education preparation program. And while she was with that program, she increased the enrollment Exponentially, she had students coming in and working with them and making connections with that program. She has since moved on with her career and has agreed to come talk to us today about Chapter 7 in Black Man's Burden. Dr. Marshall Chapman. I'm just gonna call you Dr. Marshall. I'm sorry. That's fine. That's fine. That's who I was when I was here, so I'm still the same person. So, yes. So [00:01:00] Black Man's Burden we know was William Holtzclaw's autobiography that he wrote in the early 20th century in 1915. And each chapter has pushed us, further and further into the mind of William Holtzclaw. when we look at Chapter 7, I just want to discuss with you or have you talk about some of the things you picked up from that chapter. Okay very well. Several themes that I saw that were resonated throughout the chapter. One being where there's a burden, there's also responsibility and opportunity. Mm hmm. And you could see that with some of the things that he encountered and he had to meet those challenges as he was preparing the school. We also see the theme of classism. And that was, the first part of the chapter, when you start to read it, you can see that there. And he came in with certain expectations, because [00:02:00] he had experienced something different. He wanted the people around him to experience something different. And he found that to be challenging because what he wanted to bring was not the case and where he was going to take it to. So then you had I saw that throughout the first chapter, the first part of that chapter. Particularly when he starts to talk about One of the persons that own land southwest of Utica, Mississippi. Right. And when he saw that person southwest of Utica, Mississippi, how people respected him. But the way that person lived was out of the realms of what he considered to be a classy person or someone in the upper echelon when you talk about class. Exactly, yes. I I know the part you're talking about. And I, when I was reading it I thought, Well, wait a minute. We, we're talking class and caste here but I don't know if he was trying to inspire folks about this is the level you need to be. And [00:03:00] even though this man had the control of all of this land and people, he wasn't married and he was living with like three or four women or something. And Holtzclaw was like, no, I don't want to talk to him. Let me talk to somebody else. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Yes. I think he was to me it was as if he was looking for someone who had similar values. Mm-Hmm. then, and then he didn't want to. Sometimes you can see that people want to, to push their values on someone else. Yes. And it hinders their amount of engagement or hinders their amount of being able to accept a person for who they really are. And he didn't want to accept the fact that this person has so much power, so much control. And in his eyesight, he was not someone that he would want to sit at a table and have a discussion with. Right, Right. That kind of dovetails with the other thing he mentioned about when he came to the community they weren't [00:04:00] really used to the way he was ready to do things. And I think about how we look at community now in this community, even we come in our expectation is like a level 10. Mm hmm, mm hmm, And the folks we're talking to, expectations are at like a level three. Yes, yes. And so trying to bridge that distance, do we reach down or do we dismiss these folks because they're not quote unquote on the level we think they need to be? Or do we try to work with them? Well, I think he found out quickly that he had to code switch. And when he had to code switch, he had to toss aside all of those things he, well he kept them hidden within him, but he knew how to engage. And I think that was part of what drew the community to him, in that he knew how to code switch from what he knew to what was accepted with the population that he was dealing [00:05:00] with. Yeah, and I think he, once he realized that, I think he one part of the book he talked about, How people were paying their tuition. Uh Huh. And they really wanted something more for their children. Right. So they knew something was out there that was greater than what they were seeing. But they didn't have the funds or the financial backing in order to do it. So they brought in what they had. Which was like a dozen of eggs. Right, You know. Or cattle or something of that sort. So they can have an opportunity and give their kids what they did not have. I think that was one of the best things best things read, that these people really wanted something more. And they knew it was something more. And they trusted someone they did not know, who had vision, who vision. to make a a provision for their kids. Oh, listen at that. Had a vision to make provision. For their children. [00:06:00] So what, what he was doing is Leading by example and also modeling maybe what he felt his students needed and what the community needed by doing all that. In other chapters it talks about how he created a society, the Black Belt Improvement Society and the Teachers Extension Movement where the teachers took. A big role. That'll come later in the book, but I see here in this chapter where he also, and I'm, I'm shifting just a second, but he also did not take credit for the school together by himself. Right, right, right. And I think that was, something that we don't see as much as we need to see. You know, there are people who want to create organizations They want to create schools. They want to create all these things and they do it under the, the title is good for the community. But they also want to take credit for it without including community they You know, [00:07:00] it's as if no, I know what's best for you. So you have to listen to me And that's not how everything works.. I That's true. You have to have community buy-in You have the people on board in order to make venture successful But I really liked how he named these people. Right, right. Yes, yes. The teachers, he named the teachers, you know, he named the people. I didn't see him name the person who gave him the 50 to buy, buy the quilts for the students, but he gave credit to the person who opened the store. To so he can actually purchase the quilts for the students. Oh, tell that story about what happened with the students and what led him to that. Well, it was during a time when the weather was really really fierce in this part in this area and the students were cold were cold. and They actually staged a protest I don't blame them.. you know, it's cold. [00:08:00] I want to be warm when I study and at least when I go to sleep. So they met with him in the chapel and when they met with him in the chapel, which I love the fact that he listened to the kids in the chapel, you know, and started students in the chapel. So when he got to the chapel, the students, mostly females, expressed to him that they're ready to go home. They were done. I know it was cold. I'm tired. You know, I'm paraphrasing, but I'm cold. I'm tired. I can't do this anymore. I didn't buy in for this. I'm ready to go home. He gave a speech to them to remind them of why they wanted to be here in the first place. what did they want to get from this experience? He also made a plea to them that if they wanted to go, they could go ahead and go, you know, but don't forget. Why they came in the first place and when he finished speaking to them, They changed they had a change of heart and They went back to their their places where they was trying go to sleep And do what they were doing So when [00:09:00] he finished his speech and the students went back to their dorms and they went to sleep He Received a check for 50 And he took this check and He no, he did not know it was coming. It was like, okay, you know, God is making provision for you. Okay. So he went and got some students, some male students, and they went into town and they went to the different stores and they were closed all except for this one person, but he was closed as well. He knocked on his door. He asked him, would he go to his store and open up so he could get quilts for these young ladies. They got the quilts. Brought them back to the school, and then they wrapped the students around while they were sleeping. And when they got up, one of the young ladies said that it was his speech that kept them warm, you know. It wasn't even the quilts, it was just the speech that he gave kept him warm. Now, that part, Ms. Green, I have to admit, I was kind of like, is he full of himself? You know. [00:10:00] Yeah, was like, and that was one part too, where I was going, I know he takes creative license in his writing and I was wondering how creative the license was at that point because how did they not know that someone was in there putting these quilts on them, but When we think about the reason Holtzclaw did the book was to tell stories to potential funders so that they would be able to, you know, Live the story. I can see how he sort of embellished maybe that part. he did something else too that I think we need to Bear in mind, when those, those men that he named earlier, those weren't, They were farmers. Right. Most of of them. farmers. Most of them were tenent farmers. but they met every Monday night four years. years, that is [00:11:00] some commitment right there. Wanting, and that's why it goes back to the theme of when there's a burden, there's also opportunity and there's also responsibility. Right. They knew that they didn't want their kids to go under the same things that they had to go under, you know, the, the hardships, the unpleasantries that they had experienced. So with them going through those things, they wanted something better for their children. And If it meant sacrificing meant sacrificing their time, they were willing to do that. Yeah. He created a list, a subscription list for people who were interested. I guess that's similar to what we are we talking now a mailing list of folks that are interested. And one of the things they did with all those meetings is it was just to not only push the school forward, but to keep interest in the community. And they did a lot of [00:12:00] Potlucks and programs and reaching out to make sure that folks hear the name of the school and they keep their interest up. And, you know, you may not have a child, but you may know somebody who has a child that could go to the school The school. You know, he, he only planned for a certain amount, but because the word and this was before Facebook and all these, Exactly. You know, he didn't have the luxuries that we have right now, you know, and, and the followers and the likes, this is by word of mouth. And to take it from there to where we are today. You know, that took a lot, It says 6 months after starting the school. Six months. hmm. Student population went [00:13:00] from 20 20 students Mm hmm. to 225 students. 115 than it ever been there before. Attending school in Utica, not just at his school, but in Utica. Yeah. Six months, you go from 225. I think about where we are now and what what we could do to increase the population now. to the wheel. No, No, especially when the foundation is already there. You know, it's when you stay true to the roots and the mission and the vision. There has already been laid for you. If you stay true to that, you know, when I was Working here as director of the teacher education preparation program. Okay, we started out with two students two two one two one two And within that that time period we increased [00:14:00] to 80 You know, 86, not, not eight, but 80. And one of the things that I did was go back and find out the foundation. Of the school, the mission to try to get into the spirit of Holtzclaw, not just the grounds, but I wanted to experience the spirit of the school. What was so enticing about this place that would make students want to become teachers because of virtual questions of normal institute. Right. So with that, and then. One of the other things I saw in this, thing that parallels to what I was doing was he pulled students from everywhere, not just Utica. They came from all over the country by word of mouth, by people telling, you know, I'm sure some family reunions, people were telling people, you need to bring your babies to Utica, you know, when they could have them. Because think about that day in time, [00:15:00] those years, think about how long it would take a message to get from one place to the other. That's right. Like you said, there was no social media. None. none, None. This was was telegram and snail mail. Right. right. right. But having the heart to want to do something and being intentional about what you're doing. That was one of the things that was throughout this chapter. People being intentional about what they were Even when he had to go and meet with different people. That did not look like him. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And he had to understand how to engage with people who might, on other circumstances, might not want to engage with him and what to say and what to do and what not to say and what not to do in the presence of others in order to bring him forward, to bring him in, to get buy-in from them. [00:16:00] Right. Jim Crow period when, life for any black people is gonna be hard and you have a, tightrope you have to walk. Right, right, right. And he was able to do that. He was able to do that, yes. And I'm sure the one thing that we don't talk about today that we should as far as when we engage with people is being humble. is being humble was humble enough to say, let me find out, let me listen. My grandfather used to say, you have two ears and one mouth for a reason. You listen twice before you speak once. And so he was intentional about he was intentional One of the things that he, that was in the book was When they were doing the military training, they had to stop and change the way they were doing the the training because at one time they were firing weapons. and they were [00:17:00] firing them, I think at night, and people were kind of disturbed by why they were over there training and firing these weapons. So he had to switch and change. They could still do the routines, but they could not do the weapons. weapons That is so interesting. Because someone referenced to him, we don't want to have 76 or whatever the year was. yes, yes, uh huh. what happened in 1876? With the Clinton Riots. Yeah, it brought up some old feelings from people who remember 1876. Right, right. And, of course, when they expressed that to him. Then he knew he had to change because he wanted to maintain what he was doing as far as teaching the young men discipline and teaching them how to protect, but he had to do it in a fashion that it would not cause a disturbance in the community in which he was working with. So he had to switch and change from what he was doing [00:18:00] before. So, modify behavior in order to, when you think about that too, doc we are looking at someone who who kept his primary goal in mind. Right. I want this school to thrive. In for it to thrive, I've got to have this group and This other group. Yeah. So he had to have the ear of both the black community and the non non-black community. Why? Right. Because, In order for, and I think he says this somewhere earlier in the book, in order for an enterprise to, to be successful, be successful, you have to involve your whole community. right, right, you do. I mean, that goes without, you know, think about the, big corporations, you know. They have something, a message that, can reach people that are not in those boardrooms with They know [00:19:00] how to talk and how to reach people by speaking their language, by embracing them in some capacity in order to they what they are. You know, a lot of them started off, I'm sure, you know, when you go into the grocery store, they used to give the samples out. Oh yeah. And, you had a sample, then you might Wanna go and purchase this particular product. Mm-Hmm. .Some of those very same samples are the reason we have these big corporations now. Huh. That's how he started you. That's how he get you hooked. Yes, and when she wrote she wasn't with him, at first. Mm-Hmm. . She was at home. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yes. Yes. And when she wrote those letters telling him, look, I don't care what you're going through. I'm ready to come to see [00:20:00] y'all. I want to be with my husband, you know. was like, no, no, And he was like, no, no, no. You know, cause he knew that she would be uncomfortable being that she was an elite person from the city. a city. She's a city girl. And here she is going to, she has to come all the way to Utica, you know, in order to be with him. And she was like, I don't care. You know, he's like, I know she's accustomed to the finer shops. She's accustomed to the stove. That's right. That's right. because she had to cook over it up. Well, oven. She didn't actually cook over the oven. Right, right, right. right. But I love the part that she says that was the best meals. Like, that's the way to keep them cooking for you, you know. Like, oh, those are the best meals I've ever had, you know. Do it do again. it again. told her that he was living in a place not much different from the way he was teaching outside. And then he described where they were [00:21:00] living and that she had to make the bed bed ticks out of what the old folks called crocusacks. And I'm like, crocusacks? I remember that term. That's a burlap bag. That's not the most comfortable thing to be lying on. no. And then she had to stuff it with hay from the field. Right, right. But she didn't care as long as she was kept warm by she was kept warm by his love. Oh, and then they had to share the house with the little one room house that didn't have second floor. They had to lay the planks across the joists. And then when they got some boarding students, too, the boy had to stay with him and the girl had to to sleep Mm-Hmm. . But he kept going. Right. Right. No matter what The other students that they had had to be boarded with families in the area. area Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. But you think about it, if it's something that you really want, you don't care. [00:22:00] uncomfortable you might As long as you achieve what you really, really want. If it's your heart's desire, you know, if it's something that is your mission, your passion, then you endure until you realize that that you really want. The difference is now a lot of people want instant everything, instant coffee, instant grits. instant everything. I need it right now. But when they develop The character and the patience that they need in order to get those things they really want and reap the benefits from sowing those seeds of patience and sowing those seeds of endurance. When they get that ultimate reward, it lasts longer. He created something that lasts generations. You know, think about it. Not only did he have this vision. And that he created this, but he created something that would change generations of [00:23:00] people. Think about all the people who've graduated from Utica. They have changed not only Utica, not only themselves, but they've changed communities. Think about you're talking about Congressman Bennie Thompson, a graduate, here. And he sits on standing committees for the United States of America, you know, and it started with Holtzclaw's vision. He knew, he didn't know that he would be able to influence a congressman. People who make laws for this country. He didn't know that what he was doing would be influencing presidents of colleges throughout the country. You know? Musicians and teachers and all of these great people that came through Utica. But he knew he had to do it. Right. You know, it's like, that is a itch that you've got to scratch it, you know, you've got to do this for [00:24:00] people that you don't even, that hadn't even been born. You know, their parents had not even been born. But you have to do this because you know it's going to impact more people than just your, your little circle. That's right. and I think that's, that's so thank you, you that, that's so important for us now. Mm-Hmm. We have to look past our own personal wants and our own personal rewards. And sometimes we have to look at the fact that we are repaid. I'm putting that in quotation marks. By the lives that we influence, and what they go on and do. They don't necessarily have to come back and say, You know Dr. Marshall, that was really cool what you did. But you can observe the results of your seeds you planted. Right. You may see this written in a news program. You may see this new[00:25:00] president of a college. You may hear of an Olympic athlete. There are so many people that have been touched and influenced, like you said, about, by Holtzclaw's vision and how it has been perpetuated through the years. We need to jump back into that bandwagon and push that vision forward. It would be interesting if we could, you and I talked about this years ago. We talked about a freedom school. Which was, if, I'm remembering correctly, now old, but if I'm remembering correctly, you called it the Holtzclaw School. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And currently I'm working with the Hinds county ministerial alliance to create a string freedom school in Bolton, Mississippi. Wow. Yes, and so they, it was a extended learning desert. [00:26:00] There was nothing there at first. Now there's another one, but this will be one that is geared towards stream science, technology, reading, engineering, arts, and mathematics. We could have easily have done that here and had the teachers that we were preparing to work inside of that Freedom School. You know, thinking about how and use some of the things that he did, the fireside chats that he had in order to get people on the same page in order to work the school. Some of the same character things that he did as far as character development, we could done that with students here as well. And we can still do it if we can re inspire. the folks who come past here, who come through here. I Tell the story about when I first came, way back in 2000, and I knew nothing about Holtzclaw. But because I was [00:27:00] inspired by the people I was working with and they told me the story and they told me the story and they told me the story and they were living the story. These people who didn't even meet Holtzclaw, some of them weren't even born when Holtzclaw was here. But they had been touched by his vision in this space. So one of the things that we want to do with this program and with our programs at the museum is we're trying to touch lives so we can reignite that spark. Yes, yes, yes. And, make sure that that vision, that mission doesn't falter. Yes, yes. And I think one of the things that hasn't been tapped into, there's so many resources that are here. You have a perfectly wonderful space out that you can actually look into creating [00:28:00] opportunities for students in the areas of climate and environmental justice. You right here. You know. Not too far from. different locations throughout Hines County and Copiah County, that you can really look at what's going on in the community and in the climate and in the environment that might impact the community. There are so many different programs that can be developed with this being one of the places that can do that. Why not? I mean, this has been a a really great place, an incubator for success. So if you start here with developing programs that students might not see when they go in other places, then just think about how they can take off, you know. There are so many different opportunities for students to go to the old high school, to reinvent that. to reinvent it into becoming a stream school in this area of Hinds County. You have the arts. [00:29:00] This was a Mecca for people who wanted to be in the arts. Thanks to Dr Cooper and all those who are for him. But why not use that as a place to welcome people so they can have these different skills and go out and do music technology and arts. have the perfect location for all those things to happen. It's just a matter of people looking into the resources and making wise decisions regarding them. And keeping that vision and mission at the forefront of what they're engaging in. And keeping that in the forefront of when you're engaging with your sponsors. You know, and talking to the community at large. There's no reason why this could not be as monumental of a movement when it comes to education as some of those bigger places out. You know, there, he talked about having the president of Tougaloo College Mm-Hmm. to come. And when they were working with it, it was, [00:30:00] at that time, it was Tougaloo University, you know. Uhhuh, So having Tougaloo University come here to Hinds and understanding the relationships that they had during that time. And that still is needed. You still have to have those relationships because when students leave here, they have to go. to go somewhere. So why not cultivate those relationships with those, not only with HBCUs, but with all the other schools that want to engage and have your students come out? Because, you know, we're creating, we're preparing students now for problems we don't even we have. have. Right. We're preparing them to address the problems that have not even surfaced yet. Right. Who would have thought that we had to endure COVID 19? 19? Exactly who would've thought that it was gonna take a, a person of color to help find a solution, to help us to go out and breathe again? You know? But she was there. Who would've thought that there would be someone [00:31:00] I know most of our interactions was over Zoom. Mm-Hmm. . But it took a, a sister of color to help create that platform so we can go out and do that. So here's an opportunity for us to nurture students. Create platform for them to go and develop their, thinking skills to, meet some of these thinking skills to, to meet some of these challenges that we haven't faced yet. And instead of doing that, we want to recreate a wheel that's already spinning fine somewhere else. Instead of pulling something new in and making this space as unique as it was was when Holtzclaw first started. Yes. The was [00:32:00] opportunity is here started in a started. They came here because they heard that somebody was preparing students for future. hmm. Just think about what would happen if people heard that Utica was preparing students for the future. future And they came even when he didn't have the resources to house them to the programs to, to operate with them. But they knew he was sincere and pushing and doing this to improve his people. Right, right, right. And so he had established. Now he was a true person that that showed everyone was servant leadership was about, Mm hmm. you know, he showed people what servant leadership really meant When you get out and you find your [00:33:00] niche and you find out that this is fitting some situation or some problems and you're helping people to work through those problems and work and give them opportunities to do so. You know, think about how people are drawn because when you look at society, you look at people, they're really trying to find their voice. Yes. They're trying to find some place for themselves to feel like their life means something. And the students that he brought in really found that their life meant something. a lot jobs, that increased to larger jobs. but So I think that's one of the things that get back to that. That's true. That's true. Well Dr. Marshall Chapman, I want to thank you for joining us today to have this discussion. I knew when you came it was going to be interesting. to be interesting. Well, thank thank you. you I hope that maybe we can get you back [00:34:00] sometime. And we can delve deeper into the vision you have for what we can do here as well. But thank you so much and we'll check you next time. time. Thank you. Thank you.​