Chris Watkins BMB Chp 5 
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[00:00:00] Thank you for coming back to our program. Our guest today is Miss Chris Tanner Watkins. Chris Watkins was here on the Utica campus for how many years, Chris? 38 years and she had many different positions and responsibilities. When I met her, she was working with students and helping them understand reading and comprehension concepts.

That was just one of her many, many duties, but she is with us today to discuss chapter five of black man's burden. So I just want her to go ahead and do her thing and talk to us about it. 

Well, thank you so very much, Jean, for having me back on the campus. It's a pleasure and it's an honor. I have been asked to discuss Chapter 5 of The Black Man's Burden.

And just to give a brief summary of Chapter 5, it chronics Mr. Holtzclaw's [00:01:00] journey from Snow Hill, Alabama In route to the Delta to Utica going through the Delta and all of his experiences. And conversations and interviews he had with various people that he met on that journey. Let me go back and say that he took this journey alone because his wife got ill.

Exactly. 

At the time that he was to depart Snow Hill. So she was so ill she could not travel with him. So the money that he had to travel with, he left at home with her. Good husband. That's right. Okay, so he took out and he took her bicycle with him and he began his journey to Utica, Mississippi by way of the Delta.

The first place he stopped was in Cleveland, Mississippi. It was in October. [00:02:00] Now, I don't remember a lot of frost in October in my day, but in 1902, it was some frost there. Okay, so he spent the night in the woods because he could not find housing or anywhere to stay. And he woke up about 3 a. m. covered in frost and he gets up and he decides I need to get out of here the wood So he goes door to door knocking trying to find someone who would give him shelter to no avail He comes to Bolivar County going towards Utica and his first thought let me say this I did not know until I reread this book was to have the school in Mound Bayou right okay and I guess I had always thought that it was Utica bound but his first location [00:03:00] choice was Mound Bayou. 

The gentleman that owned the land his name was IT Montgomery and he had a conversation with him wanting to know where you gonna get your money from To open this school. Oh, yeah. Okay. So, 

oh cuz I.T. Was one of the ones that founded Mound Bayou. 

That's right That's right. So that was his first angle.

Where you gonna get the money from and of course Mr. Holtzclaw had no idea because he was there trying to find supporters for the school And so, that did not end well for him. he Goes on and continues to travel. He comes to another location and everybody seemed to discourage him. The next location that he comes to and he was going to have to stay in the woods.

They say there's going to be bears and there's going to be wild cats there. And he has, of course, no [00:04:00] food. His bicycle, one of the wheels had broken, so he ended up having to carry the bicycle. And it just it just didn't go well for him. 

Now, this was interesting. He, on this journey, with this broken bicycle, no food, no water, he comes to a well.

Oh, yes. And he wanted to get some water out of this well. No bucket. So he He ties his hat onto the rope, put it down, and of course the weight of the water on the hat, it falls into the well. Well, bless his heart, he decided he'd get in the well and go for the hat and the water. I know. Now that was funny to me.

So of course he gets in, he gets the water, then he gets his hat and tries to come out the well. Can't come out. He can't come out. So he's just down there hollering, praying somebody would come along. [00:05:00] White man comes along, that lived up the street, and Well, what you doing down there? So he said, I was thirsty, I wanted some water, I lost my hat in, so I came in after the hat and get some water.

So white man throws him a rope, tells him to catch on to the rope, I'm gonna pull you up. Now, this the part that I just, I laughed, but it really wasn't funny. He says, I'm going to pull you up, but nah, most Negroes ain't worth it. Ain't worth it, I 

know, right? 

I'm like, you know. So I really just need to let you just stay down there and die, cause Negroes ain't even worth all this effort.

All this effort. But anyway, the white man did, he let him know now, just a lot of work for a Negro. But he went on and pulled him up and took him to his house, and they'd give him some molasses and bread. 

So, you know, look at how that turned around. [00:06:00] He told him all this. 

Did the work anyway. Got him up and then offered him solace.

Offered him solace. Holtzclaw said that was the best meal he had had in a long time. Some molasses and stuff. Okay, so Anyway, he continues to travel through the Delta along YM&V Railroad. And on this journey, he's still getting the point of views. of Negroes. He goes to towns like Tunica, Marigold, Mound Bayou Renova, Shaw, Leland, Issaquena, Sharkey, Washington, Caohoma, and then some other.

He worked that whole delta. 

He worked the entire delta. Just getting the, now, here's the thing, he was getting the opinions of both blacks And whites alike. He wanted to know how did they all feel about it. And I guess that's a point of [00:07:00] relevance because if you are trying to open a school for Blacks, you need to know how they feel about it.

You know, not be on that journey all by yourself. You get a school built and nobody's interested in coming. So he was getting the opinions, the point of views of all Negroes. and whites as well that he ran into. What kind of support? What kind of support? Not only, we know you got to get the money support, the financial support from the white.

Right. But you're going to have to have support from the Negro community as well. 

What do we call it now? We call it buy in, don't we? 

Buy in. You got to get the buy in. All right. You got the people that you want to provide for, they got the buy in to the thoughts. 

Now, this one I thought was, was quite interesting.

He runs into a wealthy planter at a city called Minter [00:08:00] City. Man owned a very large plantation and Holtzclaw described it as a city unto itself. The master's house was so huge, surrounded about. By all the houses that the Negroes lived in and he actually saw it as a city unto itself. So the owner was at his store and so he went up to, to talk to the gentleman and this is what he said. He said that, now that's a good idea. I think that's a wonderful thing. These negros, they need to be, of course he didn't call them negros. No, of course not, but yeah, they needed, they needed education. But now, our negros, they don't need no education.

We don't need them educated. You don't need no educated negros, to pick this cotton. 

Look at this, [00:09:00] you know, and that made me think, I got mad when I read it. I got hot, but I look at what's happening around us today. Closing our schools and all of this. We don't need to have any kind of education. We don't need that because if you can keep us ignorant, you can do whatever you want to.

Today, more money is being spent on prisons. Yes. And the prisons are being filled by whom? Us. The black community. So, more capital dollars are spent on building prisons. Than is being placed into, into the school system Education. That's right. And that's, that's sad. It is. That is so sad. And I don't know what it's going to take for the black leaders to come together to come up with a plan.

Mm-Hmm. for that to cease. Right. But we need [00:10:00] leaders right. To step up. That's right. To, address the concerns. 

Young leaders. Young leaders. 

Young leaders. Young leaders. Somebody with some bright ideas, some different ideas. 

And the energy to carry through. 

And the energy to implement. Mm hmm. And that's what we need.

Right. And we don't have that. No. We don't have that. We don't have anybody to buy in to use the word that we used earlier to the concept that we need to put a stop to it. This new form of slavery because it's just a new form of slavery exactly and and we need some someone to come in black leaders to come in 

Holtzclaw was not an older man when he was trying to do this.

He was what in his late 20s. 

He was in his late 20s Yeah, coming out of Tuskegee, so he was in his late 20s because he had a few [00:11:00] challenges along the way where he had to stop and work and help mom because Papa had died. So he had some challenges along the way that, 

that stopped his educational track.

And when he got back to it, you know, yeah, so he was in his late 20s. But back to this this land owner who had those ideas. But to show you, I appreciate you. I'm going to give you 10 for your troubles for coming in to talk to me. Now that in itself was an insult as well, but Mr. Holtzclaw needed the money.

So he graciously took it so that he could continue on his journey. Then he comes across A railroad track, and it was closed, and he was trying to find a faster way of transporting himself other than by feet. So he asked The portman, he could use his hand car to get to next [00:12:00] place and he told him he could, but somewhere in there, it was an insult that came along that, that threatened his life.

And so he thought about that thing and he said, you know what? To stay alive, I think I'll just go on feet. So, he forgot all about that hand car. Because some of the slaves were going to bring it up. Well, not slaves, but former slaves. Was going to bring it up for him to use because it was quite a distance away.

But this portman, he said something that threatened the man's life, Mr. Holtzclaw's life. So he decided he wouldn't even wait on that hand car to paddle himself along the way. He would just go on just like, like he was. And then the next person that he runs into was a wealthy Bachelor.

He was a plantation owner and though he was young and a [00:13:00] bachelor, he was a gentleman of the old school. You know, take his tea and all of the old school training that was given. He was a big talker, but he had little faith in Negroes becoming anything other than a laborer. That's all you, that's all they good for.

is being a laborer and the Negroes to him were people who had no morality, especially women. 

That, was a section. I had a hard time reading through. 

didn't call all us hoes. 

He didn't call all us hoes. And I'm, I'm looking at, and we don't have to go into the, the finer points of it cause it's actually written in the chapter.

His connection with the folks that were around him, the women that were around him. I, I 

had you question it. Wait a minute. What did tell us? I felt some kind of way about 

some kind of way about it. And he was so [00:14:00] strong about it. Mr. Holtzclaw pointed out to him that your opinion of the Negro woman is limited.

To the Negro women that you are around and because he was such an old school Gentleman, he took the time to think about it huh, and he says well it does seem that I have put them all in one Basket, and maybe there is one or two out there that has high morality. One or two. One or two.

And matter of fact, you know, I kind of like Booker T. Washington. His wife might be one of them. Huh. 

He sure did. I know.. I tell you, that was a hard read. 

That was a bitter pill to swallow right there. Yeah. He further states that all Negroes were dishonest and untrustworthy. [00:15:00] Mm hmm. Yeah, found that one hard.

The next gentleman that he runs into is Mr. Cameron, who owns a plantation. And he was willing to talk to Mr. Holtzclaw and supported his idea. But here's the thing about him. the workers that he had were three and four generations. All of his workers, mothers, grandparents, fathers, worked the plantation and so it was just passed down from worker to worker in one big family.

So let me, let me ask you a question. So at this point, he has taken folks that have been with him since slavery. 

Exactly. And they had never left his plantation. Okay. Never, never left. They were still working there. And now this is, It's not funny, and it's sad. Yeah Mr. Cameron had a lot of influence [00:16:00] over what he called his Negroes, of course, Negroes.

Okay, so He was the scary man. 

He was the scary man. Oh, yes. Yes. He was very scary and Holtzclaw wasn't no fool. So, Mr. Holtzclaw It's in a conversation with him, and he buys into, Mr. Holtzclaw's project. Thought it was a good idea, but of course not. You know, you can't mess with my niggers. My niggers is good.

Huh. So he decides to share with him that at the period when blacks were allowed to vote, huh. "Just like you see them going out into the fields to work, I used to line them up and take them to the polls to vote." 

He sure did say that. 

"And all of my niggeras voted. They voted for who I told them to vote for."

And so the word throughout the, area was that [00:17:00] whoever Cameron supported When they was running for any office, that's who was going to win, cause he had all his Negroes to vote for that person. So he went on to tell the story to reinforce how loyal his Negroes were. There was a gentleman that came into town and He didn't really like this person.

He had done something and he told his Negroes to "Go up there and throw a rope around a tree and go and hang them. Matter of fact, if I tell them to throw a rope around a tree and, and hang you, You as good as lynched by six o'clock this evening." 

That's what he said. 

So Mr. Holtzclaw said, well, What did they do?

Did they lynch the man that you told them to lynch? "Well, now, let's just say this. I ain't never [00:18:00] seen him no more." 

Lord, he sure did. That was uh!

now, so Mr. Holtzclaw believed him and he decided not to accept the offer of lodging and he continued on his journey. That was a very smart thing.

So the good thing about all of that journey there, that was his last one until he got into the town of Utica. Now, I, I think I, I guess I had forgotten this information. When I first came to work at Utica and we started doing a lot of sessions on Mr. Holtzclaw, everything that you heard was, he left coming to start a school with a pocket watch, 2, and a bicycle.

Mm hmm. Okay. Okay. Well. After having reread chapter 5, he actually left Snow Hill, Alabama with the [00:19:00] bicycle. 

That was it. 

When he got into Utica, he ran into a little boy. And this little boy traded him the pocket watch and two dollars for the broken bicycle. That's right. And that is the point at which he He came into possession of 2 and a pocket watch, and that 2 allowed him to secure boarding.

Boarding was 2 a week. Right. And so he came on into town and he met with A. C. Carter from the Baptist Church who in turn introduced him to Oliver Broome and Tom Willis who were the trustees of the Negro Public School. Uh Huh. He went to a boarding house that he was recommended to, 2 a week, pay at the end of the month, but he paid 1.

75 up front [00:20:00] and he kept 0. 25 for himself. And he felt that he needed to do that to start establishing credit. And so that is what was done. He went on to open a bank account. And he used that 25 cents to open the bank account. And all of these people together introduced him to Honorable Alexander Yates.

He listened to Holtzclaw's Project and what he wanted to do. He was a very strong supporter. He granted favors to Holtzclaw and loaned him money. He did not have to pay interest on the money. He just had to sign a note that he would repay him. And this is the means by which he was able to do a lot of things that he wanted to do.

He met a Deacon Carter who in turn set up a [00:21:00] meeting with the town council. And it is at this point that he is hired for the, they were building a separate school for the whites at that time. So Holtzclaw came along just in time. They hired him to. work with the Negroes in the separate school district cause they weren't gonna let him go to school in the new school with the whites.

And they paid him 20 a month. Soon after that he took the test the credentials test, he received his license, and he opened his first school on the first Monday of November 1902. Mm hmm. And that is where Chapter 5 ends. 

You know first I want to thank you for agreeing to take part in this.

I enjoyed it. I have enjoyed it. I always enjoy our interactions. But when I re read that book this time and got to this chapter, this chapter was one of the first ones I stumbled through. And [00:22:00] but each chapter reinforced My appreciation of Holtzclaw's tenacity, his, he stepped out on faith.

He stepped out on faith. And each time he was dealing with each of these people, I cannot imagine being all alone with these folks that have these very strong opinions about us as people. But he was able. It seems to turn them around. 

Now, I didn't mention it at the beginning, but when he left Snow Hill, he left a very good friend, Mr. Edwards, who was the principal of the Negro school in Snow Hill, Alabama. Right. He worked under Mr. Hill. Mr. Hill hired him. And he worked under him for like three to four years. Huh. He received Inspiration, [00:23:00] encouragement, motivation, determination, and commitment from this Mr. Edwards because he saw what Mr.

Edwards was able to do for the Negroes in what he termed a dark city. Yes. And all of the sacrifices. The embarrassment the hardships that Mr. Edwards endured, but he was determined to provide for his people an education. And so all of those things that he encountered with Mr. Edwards gave him the inspiration and the determination.

to do what he wanted to do, provide him for his people. And so, he carried with him everything that he [00:24:00] had learned from Mr. Edwards through the Delta on to Utica. And that's what I feel gave him the strength to endure the, insults, the put downs. that he encountered with all of the white plantation owners in the Delta.

He never took his eye off the prize. That's right. He never took his eye. 

And here we are. And here we are. All these years later enduring the fruit of his labor and trying to inspire another generation to come after us. That's, that's the thing that I noticed the most when I first, well, there were several things I noticed when I first got to Utica.

One was, when I first got here, I had such a sense of coming home. Seeing Hinds AHS reminded me of my old [00:25:00] school I went to from 1st through 10th grade. And this campus seemed like, Its own community, its own town that there was so much going on all day, at night, on the weekends, there was always something going on.

I remember watching the band practice and listening to the football boys run over and then at night when we had classes or you'd have your neighbors, whether you visited in their home or not, you spoke to them. It was being in this neighborhood and everybody, whether or not they were totally committed to the dream or the ideal of Utica, had in them a sense of community that was so.

Well, I felt so comfortable here that I [00:26:00] felt comfortable leaving my son here as I traveled. I was not comfortable doing that anywhere else because somebody was going to make sure he ate and somebody was going to make sure he did right. He did right. And if he locked himself out, somebody else had the key to the house.

It was like having family. It takes a village. 

Mm-Hmm. . That seemed to be the, sentiment of my colleagues with the students that were put in our care. Mm-Hmm. . So when families came to the campus and we met with them either in the library or wherever it like, you ain't got to worry, mama. We got 'em.

They like our 

own. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . And they were Mm-Hmm. . 

That's true. That's so true. Now the thing that. Keeping in line with what you were saying, I came here November 1st of 1979 and people like Juanita Smith and Willie Mary [00:27:00] Thompson, though they were older than me, they took me under their wings and they shared their experiences on this campus and their knowledge about Mr.

Holtzclaw and what he did, and I bought in. And during my early years of working here, we were a family. And every child that came through the gates, they were our children. Right. So we treated them like our own. We taught them right from wrong, the morals, the values, the standards of living.

We expected them to do what they should do. We expected them to learn the material and go to class and do those things. So we were a community in and of itself. And that reminds me of another thing. Students who went here, [00:28:00] Got married, went off to far away cities. They sent their child back here. That's right.

Because they had already experienced the community feeling that was provided by the Utica Campus family. That's exactly it. Yeah, baby, where you from? Illinois. Baby, where you coming from? Detroit. How you get way my mama went here. Or my daddy went here. Or my granddaddy went here. And so, it is because of the tradition that the Utica campus is known for that so many send their children or their grandchildren back to this campus.

That is so true. I, Ellistine Turner. Mm hmm. Ellistine Turner sat me down under a tree and talked to me. Nobody else would have talked to me like that, and I would have received it that way. Exactly. Juanita Smith. I got to meet Willie Mary Thomas. You, you have [00:29:00] been an influence on me. 

Thank you. 

And the other, the, you know, even I'll even Jesse Killingsworth. I'll give him 

a prompt and 

But there were so many folks, not just Ms.

Jones that worked in the library. Oh my goodness. There was so many people that that's the thing. see our students, they know that they are seen, and we 

see each other and we know them by name. the, the, the teacher I was walking past said, you know Desmond? 

I said, yeah. He said, yeah, Miss Green knows know me. Now, how would I, I don't remember Desmond's last name, but I know Desmond. The idea that, there was one thing I wanted to share with you that was so funny to me.

I was sitting one day at the circulation desk in the library, Students were coming through, [00:30:00] and I was on the phone with a colleague from Florida, and she and I were talking about some project we were doing, and she said, what's going on? I said, nothing. She said, what is all that noise?

I said, nothing. It's just students coming through. She said, well if you need to go. I said, no, they're just speaking. She said, what is that? I said, this is a black woman I'm talking to. I said, they come in and they speak. And go on to class. She said, Just, just to say, just to say hello. I said, yeah, just to say hello.

They, I'll let them know I see them and they go on. They okay. She said, Oh no, we don't have that. I said, well, okay. Oh my God. I know, right? I was like, I don't understand. That's sad. That was so sad to me. That's sad. Because, you know, anytime you're on campus, you have that acknowledgement. 

You have that. 

So, I just, [00:31:00] oh, being trained by Juanita Smith and how to do a What is that thing, the concession stand?

The concession stand. Lord have mercy. I received my concession training under Juanita Smith. Yes, indeed. Yes, and it is, it's an art to it. Yeah. It's an art. 

And now, I go to one and I go, oh, no, no, no. 

Ah, that ain't how you do that now. Ah! Oh, wear your gloves. That is not how you do that. Okay? And don't Any place that I go that's serving food, Juanita Smith coming out of me, she coming out of me, no, that is not how you do that.

You need your gloves. Did you wash 

Exactly. Oh my goodness. 

I received a lot of good training from people who have been through and, They have gained their wings. Yes, but they left so [00:32:00] much behind. Yeah, they left their legacy Behind they left their legacy behind. I sure did. 

I just I want to thank you And I may want you to come back because this conversation we ended up with I really see us Having a continuation of that and in another in another iteration of this podcast sounds great thank you so much