MIC2 === [00:00:00] Jean Greene: Thank you for joining us for Sips from the Sip. This is our discussion of Chapter 19 and joining me to discuss that is Jasmine Cannon. Jasmine is a young woman I met a couple of years ago when she came to Utica. And she is an Alabama native. She's a documentary filmmaker and all around renaissance woman. Thank you Jasmine for agreeing to meet with me and discuss chapter 19 today [00:00:30] Jasmine Cannon: course, Ms. Green, thank you for having me. Thank you for the invite to, you know, converse about this final chapter in the book. If I'm being honest, it really is a dream come true. I think I told you that when you called me, but you know, I listened to the podcast. And like, you know, ever since I read the book, when I first came to Utica back in 2022, Carlton Turner actually gave me the book and like, you know, I resonated with it so much because Holtzclaw is from Alabama and he found like this purpose, if you will, in Utica. And I feel like, you know, [00:01:00] our lives kind of, even though we're like a hundred years apart, our lives are kind of like separate. So it means a lot to me to be able to come in and speak with you about Holtzclaw and the book and all the things we're going to talk about today. So thank you. [00:01:12] Jean Greene: You. You're welcome. You're welcome. My pleasure. I've been talking to talking with other people about the individual chapters that we have and I've been looking forward to discussing. This one in particular, because it's sort of where Holtzclaw wraps up what he has been discussing in this book. And Some of the other chapters have hit a spark with me, but I really wanted to talk to someone who was younger, who is more grounded in the now, in the present and see how this work that was written in 1915, how this book resonates with young [00:02:00] folks today or how it could. So I think the first thing I want to do is sort of get your impressions of the book and then we can get into what's going on in chapter 19. Okay. [00:02:13] Jasmine Cannon: Okay. So when I read the book I read not knowing anything about Holtzclaw knowing if i'm being honest Even though i'm from alabama. I didn't know and I know of Tuskegee university. I didn't know anything about the little Tuskegees which like, you know, you look at industrial normal institute It was technically a quote unquote a little tuskegee so I felt like when I first read the book my My world was opened, you know, I just learned so much about and it makes a difference, Miss Green. I think because you, when you can identify with people like him being a Black person, him being from the South, him being a person with dreams bigger than his current situation, you know, those are things that resonated the most with me. And I think those things are what I took Like, you know, the most from the book. And that's why I appreciate the book so much because [00:03:00] of Holtzclaw and his his vision for himself and his vision for like a better world, you know So I just appreciated learning, about Holtzclaw's life But then also seeing the impacts that he had on other people's lives and then learning more about the general history About like the little tus skies about Utica. And then like, you know, we're reading and learning about all of this stuff, like while we're also living and learning about our own lives. So like, you know, it is interesting to see I guess like the juxtaposition between like what he was going through back then versus like what we may be going through today. Yeah, and of course like, you know, I also had to read it for research purposes as I'm working on the documentary about Utica too. So, [00:03:36] Jean Greene: tell us a little bit about the documentary before we get into discussion. Sort of a shameless plug of what you're doing. [laughter] [00:03:43] Jasmine Cannon: wasn't trying to be honest in my answer about my initial impressions of the book any why I got into it in the first place Well, you know, I came to Utica back in November of 2022 as an artist in residence at SIPP Culture. And so, I came for a different [00:04:00] project, but I started observing a lot of the agricultural work they were doing. And so, like, honestly, that was I guess the beginning of the documentary so like long story short, like, you know, I read the Black Man's Burden and I learned like oh this isn't new Uticanites have always tried to be self sufficient and provide for themselves and it all started really with the William Henry Holtzclaw that just blew my mind quite honestly, so and you know Utica has changed so much like since then in good ways and probably in not so good ways. And so the documentary initially it was primarily focused on agriculture, food access, food insecurity, but as I've learned so much more about Utica, it's going to be All of those things, but also about like, you know, rural communities and real community revitalization, self-sufficiency, trying to tell a full story of Utica. But like with the foundation being about like, you know, the agriculture and the self-sufficiency of the people of Utica. If that makes sense. [00:04:55] Jean Greene: It does. And I'm real excited about I want [00:05:00] everyone, which is one of the purposes of this podcast, I wanted to open up the story of William Holtzclaw to a wider audience. And one of the things that I've been really excited about is the discussions of each chapter from all the different perspectives. Because Everybody approaches it in a different way, with a different mindset, and it's been exciting to find that out. It's also been exciting to be involved with SIPP Culture as they reintroduce Utica and the surrounding community and the state to the whole ideas that Holtzclaw had that he brought from Tuskegee. So it's been really satisfying to be able to present this and hopefully it will live on past us so that it will inspire other people as well. [00:05:56] Jasmine Cannon: Right. And it is just so interesting because Ms. Green, I hear you say all the [00:06:00] time, all roads lead to Utica, right? right. And it's like, it's just amazing. Even like, you know, this is something that was talked about in chapter 19, but also like throughout the book, it's just amazing all the things that transpire in Utica. There are exceptionally, amazing for lack of a better word and like you wouldn't expect for those things to happen in this very small town in the middle of mississippi, you know, like even with the school being considered The premier example of what a little tuskegee should look like, you know It's like nobody would expect for that to be in utica, mississippi Nobody would expect for booker t washington to say that's what we need to be doing all over the place here in utica Mississippi so yes, it's just so interesting to me. It's just so interesting to me [00:06:39] Jean Greene: Well, you know, let's look at for a moment, let's look at chapter 19. Okay. And One of the he does is he talks about this article and then he quotes almost the entire article in this chapter. It [00:06:56] Jasmine Cannon: it's just one paragraph [00:06:58] Jean Greene: I think except for one [00:07:00] paragraph it was the entire article. Because we dug up that article to see, you know, how much of it he quoted. Okay. And it was all except maybe one paragraph. paragraph. [00:07:08] Jasmine Cannon: Yeah and that was Talladega College, another HBCU in Alabama. [00:07:11] Jean Greene: Yeah. So William Pickens, who taught Latin at Talladega wrote in the New York Independent in 1912 this article titled Utica. So we went out and we found that and to compare it to this chapter. And I was like, well, my goodness, he just lifted everything except the, the introduction Paragraph and just dropped it in and, but it was so positive and important to show an outside impression of what Utica was. And he in Jackson. But I wanted to see what you thought about not just that article, but some of the points that he brought home. So, if you could speak to that. [00:07:55] Jasmine Cannon: Got you. So Ms. Green, like in that first paragraph of the book before they, right [00:08:00] before we get to the article, I made a note of this quote, what Holtzclaw says, like, it was his aim since he left school to pretty much like, you know, create this institution. Right. And that just reminded me of his perseverance. And like, you know, I I think we see this throughout the chapter where nothing was going to get in his way of being successful, you know, I admire so much because it's not only about him, you know, it's like this selfless success that he desired. So yeah, one of the things that stood out to me the most about the article from Mr. Pickens as it relates to young people was the highlight of the young people. But I know we wanted to talk about, like, how Holtzclaw then his work impacts, like, you know, the youth today But I'm also thinking about how his work then was impacting youth then as well. And then, of course, like the article talks about the oratorical contest [00:08:50] Jean Greene: Yes. [00:08:51] Jasmine Cannon: In Jackson and how the Utica students were just so amazing and one of the things that stood out the most about that story, Miss Green, was when he identified the young girl that won, like [00:09:00] nobody would expect for a little ordinary looking country black girl to like win this contest. And like, you know, I'm a little ordinary looking like country black girl. [00:09:07] Jean Greene: you know? What you mean? What you trying to say? Exactly, [00:09:10] Jasmine Cannon: Exactly. And I think that's something that like, you know, a lot of us. Or some of us have to deal with today the underestimation, just because of where you may be from, [00:09:18] Jean Greene: Yeah. [00:09:19] Jasmine Cannon: or like what you look like, right? But big things come in small packages, like this girl showed us. I'm [00:09:24] Jean Greene: I'm gonna, I'm gonna interrupt you just for a second. When you, when he said ordinary looking little black girl, so, country Country, black girl. That's right. Little ordinary looking country. Black girl. And I got my hackles up. I'm like, what you trying to say? [00:09:39] Jasmine Cannon: Exactly. [00:09:40] Jean Greene: know what you mean ordinary looking [00:09:42] Jasmine Cannon: looking. [00:09:44] Jean Greene: but you know somebody from the from the rural. What does it say? folks say in church all the time can anything good come out of Nazareth So can anything good come out of the country? Well, yes, indeed it it Produced a [00:10:00] young woman Who was so good at oration and speaking that she blew everybody else out of the [00:10:07] Jasmine Cannon: Mm-Hmm. [00:10:08] Jean Greene: So it's not about what you look like where you're from. It's about what you do with what you have where you are [00:10:15] Jasmine Cannon: Exactly. Exactly. And then Throughout that article it also talks about how they were going to contests and like how the Unica students they always they had the biggest pig or the biggest hog the best animals. They were just winning all of these contests, right? And it just I think Holtzclaw, I don't know, maybe this is like synergistic. I don't know if this is like It's even realistic, but it just seems like the mentality that wanted the students to have. It was working, all of the energy at the institution was being filtered into like what mattered the most, future generations, right? Because we can't keep it going for like, posterity it's pointless, right? But yeah, I think. Mr. Pickens, he wrote about the work of the young negros and how lots of the work that was going on with the schools was young people doing it, like young teachers, like [00:11:00] young people who I saw them as sacrificing time, sacrificing money, sacrificing things they probably would have done just for the money. for themselves, for the greater good of the students who went to the Utica Institute. And I think that's important for us young people today to observe because we can do that too. You know, we don't have to leave it to the older generations to keep on shaking, making everything shake and bake, we can take initiative and we can work together and be successful. And not only for our own future. You know, for like the gains of the greater good and I think some of us do that but more of us can also do that. Right. And I think even going off of that note, you said earlier about how Holtzclaw talks about getting a lot of help from white people in the town. I think my personal opinions about it. Like we can only be better if we're working together, you know And if we're not working together, it's really impeding progress quite frankly we could be farther along if we were better along basically so like that's kind of like what I think about like, you know working with people of different races backgrounds creeds, [00:12:00] [00:12:00] Jean Greene: etc. The young black folks doing such and such. It was almost as if he were surprised that this was happening. But you're right. Holtzclaw had a clarity of mission and vision, and he was able to inspire and translate that vision so that others could buy into it. [00:12:25] Jasmine Cannon: it. [00:12:26] Jean Greene: And when his young teachers, and I love seeing that it was all these young folks working. I'm, I'm wanting and excited when I see that, that young folks are picking up the mantle. They are buying into the mission, into the vision, and they are going forward to push that. [00:12:45] Jasmine Cannon: Mm-Hmm. [00:12:45] Jean Greene: And these teachers, there was a story in an earlier chapter about D. W. L. Davis, who would go into the community as a blacksmith and then bring that, make more money out in the community doing that job than he [00:13:00] made as a teacher. But instead of pocketing that money, that he made on his off days. He brought that in and gave it to the institution. That selflessness that you mentioned and not saying that we want people to just be totally selfless and not, you know, feed themselves or anything, but the primary goal being the uplifting of the community and the people, that needs to come back. And you're right, it does need to be younger folks. [00:13:31] Jasmine Cannon: I heard, I will consider this person to be a younger person, an elder told her you're not going to change the world in your lifetime how you want to see the world or how you want the world to be will likely not be that world like during your lifetime But what we do is like we pass the baton It's like you either can catch the baton and do everything you can do during your lifetime during your opportunity And then you pass that baton on to someone else, [00:14:00] you know So it's all about like the passing of the baton like everybody's gonna have like their issues depending on like when you're born or whatever Right, We get to decide whether or not we're going to pick up the baton and do something about it and are not basically, [00:14:12] Jean Greene: Or drop it. [00:14:13] Jasmine Cannon: right, right, right. I don't know if I articulated it as clearly as I wanted to, but it's all about the baton passing, right? It's not about seeing exactly what you want to see, like during your time. It's just like doing what you can so it can be better for the future, future generations. Mm [00:14:28] Jean Greene: That's true, that's true. 19 He talked about Hostclaw's struggle. How he came and was unsuccessful time after time. And instead of throwing up his hands, he kept coming back. And he was eventually successful. And started in a normal and industrial school with one teacher and 20 pupils. And he mentions how far away it was from Vardaman And this was a person who said that Negro tax money would be better spent on schools [00:15:00] for white [00:15:00] Jasmine Cannon: students. [00:15:02] Jean Greene: The original site of the school he talks about and how it was moved. He went through all of it. And by when you mentioned that he said The young Negroes were ordinarily regarded as As appalling problems for the South. [00:15:17] Jasmine Cannon: Mm hmm. [00:15:18] Jean Greene: But when they are saying in this useful work, you get the idea that if the problem is given an opportunity, it will solve itself. Now I took exception with the word problem. [00:15:30] Jasmine Cannon: Mm hmm. [00:15:31] Jean Greene: Further it quotes from other writers in the book. They talk about the Negro I'm like, you know, really, I don't, I don't want to go here with you. But, if you think about us working together to solve our issues, which is a euphemism for problem, I know. But as you said, it's us working together. And if we can incorporate allies to assist us with this, that's great. But the [00:16:00] work needs to be done by us. So we see the success and so we value it and we can pass that intrinsic value on forward. I talk about all the time and I know you've heard me when I came to Utica. I didn't know anything but it was the people who were here doing the work that I was able to see and talk to that inspired me to want to take part in it. I wanted to have a part in what was going on. talking to the students and the newer faculty became one of the things I wanted to do, you know, buy into, you know, see what's going on here. This is an important place. Yes, it's at the, the edge corner of nowhere, but there's a lot going on and all roads lead here. It led you here. It leads others here, you know, and is something that I firmly believe. I firmly believe [00:17:00] that. [00:17:00] Jasmine Cannon: I can relate Ms. Green about how you observe people and you know, you wanted to be a part of that. I feel, like I had a similar experience and you're one of those people who I feel has welcomed me and makes me feel She's like clutching her pearls y'all one of those people who makes me feel like welcome here, you know, auntie auntie miss green [00:17:19] Jean Greene: Miss Green. Miss [00:17:23] Jasmine Cannon: green you also made me think about something else when you were talking about. The younger generations It made me think about what you just referred to the 60s and the 70s because if we go back and look at those people who were considered quote unquote agitators Are the people who leading the charge on some of the activism Those were young people quite frankly like SNCC. Those are like college students, you know, you know, i'm from alabama so looking at birmingham all of those kids who were hosed down, you know, those are those are children, you know, so it's young people have more Power than they may realize Yeah, [00:17:55] Jean Greene: I really think that that needs to be really [00:18:00] emphasized to young folks because sometimes I, here we go, I, I remember when we didn't have the right to vote and they were sending off young men to fight in Vietnam and die at 18. At 18, and they couldn't vote until they were like 21, 20, something like that. And when they lowered the age for voting to 18, I was right up there to register to vote so I could exercise that right. And millions of us did. And I haven't missed a voting opportunity since then. So we're talking from 1972 until now. And I talk to young folks, or I talk to people that, that are just a little bit younger than me. Not much younger than me, but a little bit younger than me. And I'm like, well, you know, this is going on and we need to make sure we get out and exercise our right to vote. And I'll hear. Well, that ain't gonna matter no way [00:18:58] Jasmine Cannon: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. [00:18:59] Jean Greene: [00:19:00] Yeah. yes, it does yours doesn't matter this one If you take a bunch of y'all that didn't matter and pull it together. It really mattered so when we look at what Holtzclaw was doing and it was a poor area and Those little pennies that folks were given to him. That was all they had. Oh, that shouldn't matter But if you pool them together, it does matter So it's, as you said earlier, it's recognizing the power you have [00:19:27] Jasmine Cannon: Right. [00:19:28] Jean Greene: and being ready to exercise that. [00:19:32] Jasmine Cannon: Right. [00:19:33] Jean Greene: And it doesn't always mean that it's a negative protest or it's a negative outcome. Sometimes we think of exercising your power as negative and it's not. [00:19:46] Jasmine Cannon: Right. [00:19:47] Jean Greene: Not that long ago, a young black woman couldn't be a director. [00:19:54] Jasmine Cannon: A show [00:19:55] Jean Greene: couldn't be a documentary Not, not openly and going out and [00:20:00] being welcomed into different areas. Couldn't do that. A woman couldn't do much of anything without permission. You would have had to have your daddy's permission and all kinds of stuff. So the freedoms that young people have, Young women have, young women of color have to fight for every day. Those fights are less about being in the space sometimes, as being to exercise your voice in the space. So yeah, you can be in the space, but you have to be quiet. [00:20:30] Jasmine Cannon: Exactly. [00:20:31] Jean Greene: Where before you couldn't even be in the space and learn about it, [00:20:34] Jasmine Cannon: So [00:20:35] Jean Greene: So I know that sounds a little convoluted. But you know, do you see what i'm saying? [00:20:38] Jasmine Cannon: Yeah yeah it's just making me think about the baton analogy I was trying to make up earlier because somebody had to get in the room initially making me think about the I'm working in the documentary film industry for almost 10 years now. And like, you know, now, since I'm directing this documentary on Utica, it will be my directorial debut. And I had a moment one day, I realized like, Oh wow, like I'm [00:21:00] the next generation of documentary black women, documentary film directors. Right. And so like, you know, I was thinking about this as I was reaching out to like who I would consider like big sister, like, you know, black women, documentary film directors, And mentors and I was like, wow, I'm the next generation. But like, you know, I have these opportunities because other people came before me. Right. And then I have to be cognizant of what I'm doing. with my opportunities for people who are coming behind me, right. Which goes again to like young people, like people, even younger than me. It's important. Like, even when I'm in Utica, I see kids around. I was like, Hey, you like cameras? You know, trying to get like more kids, like interested in the camera. And lots of times they naturally are interested in it because it's something unique, I guess. And, hopefully they'll catch on to it and then there'll be better than me. You know what I mean? There'll be a better filmmaker than me. And then they can give other people like where they come from opportunities. Right. [00:21:49] Jean Greene: it's a difference between opening a door to let other people through and being a gatekeeper to shut that door in their face [00:21:56] Jasmine Cannon: Ms. Green. I [00:22:00] say [00:22:02] Jean Greene: What Did I say [00:22:03] Jasmine Cannon: What did I say? But you [00:22:12] Jean Greene: you know, they'll be all right when the swelling goes down but it's It's true. Sometimes we are so focused on us being the only one in the room. And so proud of that, that we keep other folks from coming through. That's something Holtzclaw didn't do. [00:22:28] Jasmine Cannon: Right. [00:22:30] Jean Greene: He did not do that [00:22:31] Jasmine Cannon: And it didn't make sense to him. [00:22:32] Jean Greene: It it didn't and he was opening the door and pulling folks through and opening the door and providing opportunity He came down here And showed by example, so I cannot overemphasize What people say in their churches all the time the only bible somebody will read is your life So he took his life And instead of preaching the gospel of Tuskegee.[00:23:00] He showed it to him and then pulled, he pulled those, he brought these Tuskegee graduates with him who already had been inspired and knew and then they expanded that to go out into the community. and show by the example of your life. This is what it looks like to have an education. This is what it looks like to build your own house. This is what it looks like to build your own home. What you just said a few minutes ago about talking to the younger folks here about, do you like the camera? Do you want to do this? But what they're seeing is Not someone who is showing them a picture of a camera and say, do you like this? Do you want to do this? They're seeing a young woman who is holding her camera and operating it and they can see what it would look like for someone who looks like them to do [00:23:59] Jasmine Cannon: it. [00:24:00] Right. [00:24:00] Jean Greene: Holtzclaw was showing folks what What education looked like on a black person. [00:24:07] Jasmine Cannon: Mm hmm. [00:24:07] Jean Greene: What owning a house looked like on a black person. [00:24:11] Jasmine Cannon: Mm hmm. [00:24:12] Jean Greene: then it's easier to imagine that for yourself. Because you had to see somebody who was doing it. [00:24:20] Jasmine Cannon: Yep, I feel like I'm a part of What they call the Oprah generation if I'm being honest cuz I did I did go to school for journalism But you know seeing Oprah on TV because my mother used to watch it on TV I don't know for one for sure. I seen her on TV meant something I think just naturally because she was a woman and a black woman but then also Learning that she was from the south and she was doing this Like that was really the, thing that went off in my brain that, Oh, I can do anything that my little brain can [00:24:50] Jean Greene: I don't have to be from New York. [00:24:52] Jasmine Cannon: Exactly. Exactly. Like I can be from Alabama and I can be like what I feel like on the inside. I really can't be right. So [00:25:00] that Southern connection is something that really made it click in my brain that I really could be whatever I could imagine. And they also, you know, like my family is very supportive too. And my parents always told me I could be whatever I wanted to be, But it goes on what you were saying, Mr. Green about like seeing something, it's easy for you to believe something. [00:25:16] Jean Greene: Let's just take SIPP Culture [00:25:18] Jasmine Cannon: Mm hmm. [00:25:20] Jean Greene: Carlton and Brandi, right?They're the living example what f in A nonprofit can do, [00:25:27] Jasmine Cannon: Mm hmm. Right? [00:25:29] Jean Greene: And so when they started, I was like, you know, well, really, what are they gonna do? Let's see what that's gonna look like. And that's what folks were doing with Holtzclaw alright, you came to town. We just had somebody through here trying to start a school and he took our money and left. What you gonna do? And over the years they watched, but they were seeing it. They weren't just hearing it. And they saw the struggles when the, tornadoes came through and tore the buildings down and they [00:26:00] rebuilt them. Or they needed to move the school and they were trying to raise the money and how hard it was. And then someone offers them the land. And when they get ready to buy it, they say, no, you ain't having this. And didn't stop. They went forward and forward and forward. It's a perseverance. when we are you, SIPP, me, when we are faced with stumbling blocks, that mean you won't stumble. That mean you won't fall, but when you get up, [00:26:32] Jasmine Cannon: you're stronger [00:26:33] Jean Greene: you have to get up Yeah. And, not that, you know, dust yourself off and say, okay, that's one way that it didn't work. Let me try this. Holtzclaw coming to Mississippi three times. And each time being met with, not here, [00:26:49] Jasmine Cannon: but he didn't quit. He did not quit. [00:26:52] Jean Greene: Even when he got close, somebody gave him a book. That reignited him. [00:27:00] And he came back. So as I'm looking around the world today and I see folks stumble and they fall and they lay there, I'm like, no, no, no, get up. it hurts. There are times when you want to just go, no, that's it, I'm tapping out. But you don't because there are people who are looking at you to see what it's like. To get up and go on and that inspires them, especially in this day to get up and go on. So here we are. [00:27:32] Jasmine Cannon: And you never know, a hundred years later, we could be talking about your life. You know, just like we're talking about Holtzclaw. It's like, you just never, like, he never imagined that there would be this Utica Institute Museum, Mr. Greene. Like, he never imagined, like, so many things. He was just doing what he felt like he should be doing with his time here on Earth. And I think, I hope we all can like, you know, at least do a little bit of that. Right. Because we really truly never understand like the impact of like what you said, how we choose to live our lives. Right. So it's [00:28:00] important. I think it's [00:28:01] Jean Greene: It is important to not get, get drowned in, in, what did I call it one time? Vanity projects. Wanting to do something that lives on past you. When and I'm going to take this one little moment to, to talk about the, Black Man's Burden podcast project. Initially, it was started to have an audio book to help students who don't read as fluently. And so that when we assign them the book to read and we discuss it, that they would have something to read. You know, all different kind of learning. It would have something auditory that they could have with the book. Because Sometimes you need a little bit of extra help. So the initial idea was to create that, so that students would then have that that they could listen to.[00:29:00] Or if we were trying to inspire the new faculty, they could pop that in on their ride down here from their homes, sort of get a little boost on their way into work. And then we thought, hmm, pie calves? That was not something I anticipated, and then the adding the discussion, because what I did not want is for folks just to hear me droning on chapter after chapter after chapter, and not having a different perspective on what was being read. So when we first started doing those interviews and discussions, I kept learning more about the book each time I had a discussion with someone to get their view on what it was. To do the discussion before the recording and then the discussion after the recording. So it's been really beneficial for me and I've been immersed in Holtzclaw's message [00:30:00] for 24 years now. So I appreciate what you are bringing to it and the insights you're showing me because that's expanding my knowledge of who he was and who he could be. Your Alabama connection really brings home to me how he can inspire folks, not just in Mississippi, not just in Alabama, but in the entire country. [00:30:26] Jasmine Cannon: Mm hmm. [00:30:27] Jean Greene: but moving forward [00:30:28] Jasmine Cannon: something the same as green [00:30:29] Jean Greene: Yeah, please, please go ahead. [00:30:31] Jasmine Cannon: So there are a couple of quotes that I highlighted in the in the book. There's one part in the book where Holtzclaw talks about how object before him has loomed so large as to eclipse all minor difficulties. So even though it was so difficult doing what he felt like he needed to do, he still had that tenacity and that perseverance that we talked about earlier. Right? But I think. My favorite quotes in the entire book. actually have this on the background on my phone and my laptop. [00:30:57] Jean Greene: my phone and my [00:30:59] Jasmine Cannon: Let me give you [00:31:00] the exact page number so people can just go right to this when they the [00:31:06] Jean Greene: Disney when they [00:31:08] Jasmine Cannon: We are on page 229. [00:31:12] Jean Greene: 229. [00:31:13] Jasmine Cannon: Okay. [00:31:14] Jean Greene: Yes ma'am, [00:31:14] Jasmine Cannon: And this is my favorite, this is my favorite quote. And I want to say it now because we were just talking about how we never know how our lives can impact others. And this is, I think this is an inspirational quote. That's what, that's how I would describe it. It says, I have no time to sing minor notes. I have determined that the tune of my life shall be played on major keys. So it's like, time's up for the small stuff. Ms. Green, time's up for the small stuff. We have to really understand like who we are, who we can be and go after it. [00:31:42] Jean Greene: Because, or something like that. [00:31:50] Jasmine Cannon: Go big or go home. [00:31:51] Jean Greene: is what I say. And those [00:32:00] two quotes though, though one about he didn't want his life on minor keys, [00:32:07] Jasmine Cannon: notes. minor notes. Mm hmm. [00:32:09] Jean Greene: Ah, yes. I [00:32:10] Jasmine Cannon: have no time to sing minor notes. No time, because we're only here for a finite amount of [00:32:15] Jean Greene: exam. Right, [00:32:15] Jasmine Cannon: I have determined that the tune of my life shall be played on major keys. I love it. I love it. Every time I read it, I love it. So I had to shout it out on the podcast. [00:32:26] Jean Greene: Thank you. Thank you for doing that. That's a quote that when we go back in my office, I'm going to show you that someone gave that to me and that has been one of the inspirations for doing this work. Yes. [00:32:40] Jasmine Cannon: It resonates with me as well. And I feel like I take that with me on a journey with the documentary, because if I'm being honest, like, you know, most people's relationship with filmmaking is like through your television screen, right? But I think if you ask most of us who work in the industry, it's exceptionally taxing, difficult work. You know, it [00:33:00] may for some of us, it can be physically taxing, but like, it's also mentally it can be a lot, you know, like our jobs are not easy. I try, I keep it in proper perspective. Like, you know, we're not performing open heart surgery, you know, like saving people's lives in that manner. But the work. can be very difficult and especially like when it comes to documentary filmmaking and then even on top of that independent documentary filmmaking It's just it could be a tedious journey. So like, you know, I use this Holtzclaw, and his quotes and things like, you know, making sure I'm not living my life on minor notes, but major keys those things to keep me going on the process, you know, and the people as well. [00:33:39] Jean Greene: That also shows how it doesn't have to be just about the education of black people. It's about the inspiration of black people, of all people, but black people. And you in an industry that one would not [00:34:00] directly associate with Utica, Mississippi and Holtzclaw drawing inspiration from your, Alabama brother 121 years removed. That says so much to the strength of him and his vision and its ability to transcend time. [00:34:22] Jasmine Cannon: Yes. [00:34:24] Jean Greene: And I'm just really touched that you gave this example that can then resonate with other folks as well. So thank you for that. [00:34:32] Jasmine Cannon: My pleasure. I think that with the inspiration Ms. Green is also that is also determination Okay. Holtzclaw's determination. And just seeing him be successful with what he set out to do, irregardless of like everything that happened, like similar to some of the stuff that we already discussed. It's like, you know, keep on keeping on, basically. [00:34:50] Jean Greene: keep on keeping on. I, I want to thank you for joining me today, Jasmine. I, it has been a pleasure. I have really enjoyed it. Is there anything [00:35:00] else you want to add to what we've discussed? Know you've got notes over there. I know. There, I know there's stuff you wanna add, . Oh. [00:35:08] Jasmine Cannon: I think the last thing that I wrote miss green, how holtzbaugh equated freedom with education [00:35:14] Jean Greene: Oh please, yes. [00:35:15] Jasmine Cannon: because he said something about young people must be educated in order to be set free, you know, I think Education has [00:35:22] Jean Greene: been In so many different ways. I do think [00:35:31] Jasmine Cannon: so many different ways. I do think education's value has fluctuated over the decades. Right. And I think it being for profit has had a lot to do with it. But I think the education piece is important when it comes to freedom, similar to like what was spoke about earlier in the chapter about how, the black students having black educators, how that impacted their experience. I think the words were [00:36:00] Freedom. It was like freedom of body and soul, right? That's what the writer talked about what the black students have and the black teachers, especially of the younger generation So I think it's about the education, but I think it's about more Than the education to really that really helps us set up. Citizens of our society, right? So that's something else that stood out to me. And I think HBCUs [00:36:23] Jasmine Cannon: stand out to me when I think about them. I didn't go to HBCU for school, but I have, so many family members and so many friends who did. it wasn't only about the education. You know, it's more about life, quite frankly which, you know, is special and it [00:36:38] Jean Greene: uh, which, you know, is in a manner. Because so much of the education staff throughout the country is [00:37:00] white and female. [00:37:01] Jasmine Cannon: Mm-Hmm. [00:37:01] Jean Greene: So to see a brown or black female, and especially a brown or black male, is an example to these students of what education can look like and a possibility. So, yes, to come to rural Mississippi, not that far from when Reconstruction was beat down, and show all of these people an example of what education could look like for them, and then what the opportunities that education can provide for them was priceless. So yeah One of the questions I always ask is what was the relevance we've already talked about that today and Is Holtzclaw someone that needs to be shared with other people? Oh, yeah for sure Yes, so, again Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming and helping me close out the book Black Man's Burden on a high note You And [00:38:00] for sharing your time and your, perspective on him and this chapter. I cannot thank you enough. I'm looking forward to see what you do. With your inspiration from Holtzclaw. But thank you so much Jasmine. [00:38:16] Jasmine Cannon: Thank you for having me, Ms. Green. It's been more than a pleasure. Dreams do come true. [00:38:20] Jean Greene: Stop. Thank you