Disclaimer: This transcript is auto generated and is not manually checked for errors. It more than likely contains very significant errors. TCC_11_StevenAveryBrendanDasseyPart6 Prompt for conviction cases. Ultimately the system works. [00:00:06] People want to tell their stories, break [00:00:09] the law. There are consequences [00:00:16] and, uh, welcome back to true crime and consequences. I'm Carrie and I'm Brian and we're a husband and wife who liked to shoot the shit about true crime and post it on the internet for everyone to listen to. How's it going? I'm good. Been a hot minute. Yeah, like a hot minute. And I feel like shit for it being so long since there was just a lot that kind of happened. [00:00:42] And, uh, Brian's schedule went kind of wonky for a few weeks where he was working a lot of extra shifts. So he maybe had a day and a half worth of free time every week for a while. And also for those of you who don't know, he has his own. YouTube channels and podcast that he does on his own. And so of course I said, well, that takes priority for your free time there. [00:01:06] Cause, uh, yeah, I don't know why. I [00:01:11] Brian: [00:01:11] don't know that I, I don't know that it should take priority, but it has a, uh, [00:01:18] Kari: [00:01:18] well, he, he covers, he does a lot. He has a Locksports channel for those of you who don't know what Locksports is, it's lockpicking, which is a pretty popular hobby for some people. And he does a weekly podcast that covers all the news that has happened within the Locksports community over that last week. [00:01:35] And so there is a, a time constraint on making sure he's not super behind on stories. And that kind of, because you know, old news becomes old very quickly. So that's kind of why I gave it priority, like Steven's case isn't going anywhere. So, [00:01:52] Brian: [00:01:52] yeah, so I co-opted Saturday as my record time. And so if my work schedule doesn't cooperate very well and her health doesn't cooperate and they don't sync up, we just don't get it. [00:02:03] Kari: [00:02:03] The other problem is in in-between between his schedule being crazy. And I had a couple of really bad health weeks where I just wasn't feeling well at all. No, I did not have COVID just so no one thinks, oh, no, Chicago. No, I didn't. So far I have not caught COVID so we're good there, but I have a lot of health conditions and I got some questions or I should say comments on one of the YouTube versions of our podcast. [00:02:31] I'm kind of asking about my health and, and explaining they also had health problems. And so if you want more to know more about that, I'm an open book. So please feel free to ask me any questions you want. And if, if you're at all interested in, in my story of how my health went caput and. Everything that's happened since then. [00:02:52] I'm more than willing to do an episode about it. If that would be interesting to anybody, which I doubt, but if it is feel free to comment and let me know, I mean, I'm happy to bring it up it at least maybe it'll help people understand why. Sometimes we add that I have to take a break and sometimes it has to be a long break. [00:03:11] Unfortunately, I don't like that, but it just, it is what it is. I can't, you know, if I can't physically sit here for an hour or two and, and record because it's literally painful that I just can't also, it, it, when I'm in a lot of pain, it kind of, um, interferes with my ability to think clearly. And so I can't, that also hinders my ability to record because I have to be able to at least. [00:03:41] Uh, have a somewhat cohesive train of thought and that's not possible when I have a lot of pain stuff going on. So anyway, that's kind of what happened is just Brian's schedule was nuts and my health wasn't good for a couple of weeks and, uh, yeah, we just couldn't find the time and I couldn't find the energy physically or emotionally to, to dive into it. [00:04:01] So that's what happened. That's why we've been missing for like a month. And I'm really sorry, but I'm not going to sit here and say, it'll never happen again because it totally will. Well, [00:04:10] Brian: [00:04:10] and I'm thinking, do we want us to slip this back to like every other week that will give us more of a chance to, [00:04:18] Kari: [00:04:18] I know we talked about that like last week, but I haven't decided yet for sure if I want to do that. [00:04:23] I mean, I think that might be something we do just because a once we get past Steven's case here, Stephen and Brendan's case, we'll have. New cases that I've never heard of before, or at least not much about. And that might be more difficult to research. So we, I mean, it may require more research time than what I had to do with these two, because I was already so familiar with the west Memphis case and with Steven's case. [00:04:53] So yeah, I mean, we might have to do that. So FYI, we might end up going to an every other week upload schedule, but you know, who knows if, I mean, if you're interested in other things, then you know that maybe a little bit to do with true crime, like just talking about like maybe stuff I've heard about over the last couple of weeks or whatever we could do, like maybe filler episodes where we just talk about. [00:05:18] Updates to cases we've covered or ran, you know, whatever. Then that might be a possibility too. So, uh, you know, I don't know where it's going to go, but we may go to an every other week schedule just to allow for better research on new cases. And also so that, um, you know, I can have kind of a regular break, which would allow my mind and body to kind of recover and recuperate. [00:05:43] Brian: [00:05:43] And when we had good weeks, we might be able to get ahead and then I could fill those in for when you're not [00:05:50] Kari: [00:05:50] feeling good. Yeah. Yeah. It might be good to plan ahead for when I'm not feeling good since that happens so fucking frequently, but anyway, okay. So as everybody knows, we've been talking about the Steven Avery, Brendan Dassey making a murderer case, and we left off talking about preliminary hearings and stuff that was going on pretrial. [00:06:11] Regarding, um, Brendan's attorney and the private investigator doing the bang up job of getting Brendan to confess yet again, totally against Brendan's best interest, which is not the lawyer's job, but okay. Whatever. So we're basically in the trial phase now, and this Stevens trial went first and it was scheduled to begin on February 12th, 2007. [00:06:38] So it was about a year and a half after Teresa's disappearance and, and subsequent murder. And of course, like we said, in the last episode, that's because pretrial hearings and all that nonsense takes for ever. So it's not that they didn't see the inside of a courtroom. It was just all the technical lawyers saying, Hey, we want to admit this and we want to include this. [00:07:01] And is that okay? And the judge saying yes or no. And you know, if you're familiar with the legal system at all, you know, how pre-trial hearings work, Dean and Jerry. Stephen's attorneys who we talked about in the last episode, you know, were doing everything they could to prep for trial. They were going out to the property on their own. [00:07:20] They were looking for any potential new evidence or at least things to, you know, disprove whatever evidence the prosecution had, which as we already know, was flimsy at best. I mean, the, the, the prosecution alleged evidence was just flimsy as hell. I, you know, you had the magic key that was found on the eighth search. [00:07:44] You had Stephens blood drips found in the driver's side of, of, uh, Teresa's Rav four, but no fingerprints, which makes zero sense of if he was actively bleeding from a cut finger, which was what was alleged. Cause he had a cut on his finger. He worked at a damn salvage yard. Of course he had a cut on his finger. [00:08:05] Like I don't get how, if he was actively bleeding from this cut from his finger, That his fingerprints weren't anywhere because that meant he w cause then they're like, well, he was wearing gloves and I'm like, how the fuck is he dripping blood from a cut on his finger? If he's wearing gloves, therefore not leaving fingerprints, which just let everybody think the blood was planted. [00:08:27] Yeah. I mean, it just, I can see how, like, I mean, not everybody, obviously the prosecution didn't think that and the cops didn't supposedly think that, but people who were on Steven's side were like, it's just not humanly possible. If they're alleging, like they were alleging that the blood would came from the cut on his finger, there's absolutely no way that he did not also leave fingerprints. [00:08:52] And if he was wearing gloves to not leave fingerprints, then the blood would have gotten soaked up by the gloves and would not have left actual droplets in the car. Yeah. It's kind of an interesting way. It makes zero zero sense. So that is kind of why. Well, not kind of why that is one of the many reasons why Steven believed he had been set up and his lawyers very quickly agreed that they thought that he had been set up because of all of the, the totality of the circumstances where you had the magic key found on the eighth circuit with, by Manitowoc county law enforcement who was not supposed to be there, you know, and then the, the, the blood thing and in the car, and then absolutely no forensic evidence in his house or his garage dust still on everything. [00:09:45] So there's no way he, for five days that the prosecution keeps alleging was enough time for him to clean up everything. Yes, you're right. Five days probably would have been enough time to clean up the vast majority of every okay. But not enough time for dust to re accumulate to the degree, to any real degree, any woman who's ever cleaned a house knows that. [00:10:08] Brian: [00:10:08] Well, and some things don't add up with that and that, okay. So they did an expert level job of cleaning up every bit of dry blood and evidence from what would be a horrifically bloody crime scene, throat slashed, but they miss something obvious like that one bullet fragment and the keys to her car ki ki whatever that [00:10:32] Kari: [00:10:32] well, and then on the key, obviously the key itself was an issue, not just because of how it was found and when it was found and where it was found, but also that the only DNA they found on that key or the fog that the key was attached to was Stephens. [00:10:47] None of hers, none of anybody else's, but especially suspicious is the fact that there was none of Theresa's if that was her key. And it was a cloth and plastic fog. Her DNA would be all over the embedded in the little cracks in the plastic and embedded into the fibers of the little cloth fog. I mean, there's no way. [00:11:09] So the allegation was that the key had been scrubbed clean and Steven's DNA had been placed on it. It would certainly certainly made sense to me. I mean, I realize the guilt, hers are always like, this makes zero sense. Like, why would they do this? Why would, you know? And, and it's so elaborate. And how did they get Calumet county in on it? [00:11:33] Cause they had to be in on it. I'm like, well, first of all, no, they don't know Kelly met county didn't have to be in on it because it was Manitowoc officials that found all the crucial quote evidence. First of all, second of all, what are they going to Calumet county? I mean, are they going to automatically assume that they're brothers and blue or framing someone? [00:11:54] Of course not. That's not their, that's not the first thing they're going to jump to necessarily. Could they have been in on it? Sure. I mean, you have to remember that the, the thin blue line is the thin blue line and it doesn't matter if they're from different jurisdictions, they stick together well, and [00:12:08] Brian: [00:12:08] they're neighboring counties, right? [00:12:10] So they work together on some things he could have potentially deputies that have worked for one jurisdiction working for the other. Now that [00:12:18] Kari: [00:12:18] would be interesting to research. I, you know, if I don't honestly want to research anymore on this case, but if, maybe in the future, when I want to do an update, I might look up some of that stuff and see if there's any like con potential conflict of interest and, and crossover. [00:12:33] Cause, but even if, even if there was crossover, that doesn't mean, or I should say there doesn't have to be crossover because they could have just been just as clueless as the rest of us, you know, that is totally possible. They could have used them just like they were using Stephen it's possible. So I may, you know, So who knows, but then there's the ones who are like, why would they do well? [00:12:59] I remind you that they had 36 million reasons to make Stephen go away. Yeah, that would have, I cannot stress enough that that amount of money, especially since the insurance companies had refused to cover the, because of the egregious nature of the allegations against Manitowoc county and its officials in the original 1985 rape case, which is what he was suing for in the first place, the wrongful, uh, impersonal let's [00:13:29] Brian: [00:13:29] put it this way. [00:13:31] Any prosecutor looking to prosecute, somebody for doing something would see that as plenty of motive to go ahead with a prosecution on a private individual and the fact that they were the ones that found all the crucial [00:13:47] Kari: [00:13:47] also, well, what's the first thing they will, you know, you, you watch enough. Crime shows like me and you see a pattern and when a spouse is murdered, The first person they look at is the, the other spouse. [00:13:59] But also they always look where their life insurance policies where they're the, it's always about money. Always look for the money, follow the money trail. Right? Exactly. That's always the first focus. That doesn't mean it's why the person died or that, that was the person who committed the crime. However, it's always where they look first. [00:14:15] Well, yeah, $36 million is a really good reason to make someone go away because that would have bankrupted the entire well. And [00:14:24] Brian: [00:14:24] am I. Am I correct in remembering that some of the officers to detectives would directly be named in that suit directly. So they would also be on the hook for some of that. [00:14:36] Kari: [00:14:36] Well, that's the part, that's what I'm saying. [00:14:37] The insurance comes through, it's not just [00:14:39] Brian: [00:14:39] the department, you have private individuals, they're police officers, but they're still individuals and they have a motivation now to, for self preservation. [00:14:47] Kari: [00:14:47] Right? Exactly. So not only do you have the fact that the whole county and them personally would be completely bankrupt, essentially? [00:14:56] Not essentially for sure. They would have been bankrupt, but you also have that, uh, personal liability can make people do crazy things. And some of including James link, which was the, uh, uh, police chief at the time. And, um, some of the other officers who then became involved in the Teresa Halbach case were named and deposed for the lawsuit. [00:15:24] We talked about that before that they were in the process of depositions for the lawsuit when the Teresa Halbach situation even happened at all. So as ridiculous, I know it sounds ridiculous. Okay. I am not so oblivious to not think that it sounds crazy and it sounds FA fantastical almost that, that anyone could even think that, that the police would go to this much effort to, um, to secure a case against someone. [00:15:55] But I need to remind you that this kind of thing happens all the time. Please plant evidence all the time, please. Uh, fabricate statements all the time. Now, normally it's, they're not doing it in this case. I believe it was malicious, but in. Other cases, they're not necessarily doing it maliciously. They oftentimes although completely wrong and should not be done ever. [00:16:21] For any reason, they are oftentimes doing it because they truly believe the person is guilty. And they just want to secure that conviction. Now that is 1000% wrong. However, it means they, you know, at least it means in certain cases, they're not trying to be malicious. They just want a secure case against someone they think is dangerous and they want off the street. [00:16:43] In this case, I believe it was malicious. [00:16:46] Brian: [00:16:46] Obviously, if they did, in this case, it was malicious and it was very, more than just planting a little. It looks [00:16:56] Kari: [00:16:56] like putting a baggie of drugs in someone's [00:16:57] Brian: [00:16:57] box. If what is presumed here is true. They went over and above. [00:17:04] Kari: [00:17:04] Oh yeah. I mean, they, they took. If the allegations are accurate, which I personally think are, but you know, it's really neither here nor there at this point. [00:17:18] I personally think he was set up and, but I don't know for sure. We'll see, we'll get into that later where, cause I believe there was a couple of different things going on and I don't think it was just the police that were setting him up. So we'll get there. Uh, when we get into, uh, everything that's happened since the trials were over, because that's stuff that's come out more recently with the help of, uh, Kathleen Zellner. [00:17:45] Steven's current post-conviction attorney, but anyway, Dean and Jerry are doing all this prepping for trial, getting all their discovery done and, and, you know, sharing information with the prosecution and like they're supposed to the prosecution did not always, uh, follow that rule. But, um, you know, that's unfortunately pretty common that they withhold evidence. [00:18:11] Again, it's very common, but it's also incredibly illegal and very unfortunate that it occurs. But, um, during the course of investigating the blood drops in the car, Dean and Jerry were trying to figure out, okay, if the blood was planted, where could it have come from? Cause it Stevens blood that's positive. [00:18:33] It's been tested not only by the prosecution, but they tested it too. It Steven's blood, where'd it come from. And there's a couple of different theories as to where the blood came from. But the one that they kind of started with was Dean and Jerry asked to go to the Sheriff's office and look at the box of evidence that they had from the 1985 rape case to see if maybe there was anything in there that could have aided in a frame job. [00:19:02] Cause you know, they took. They took evidence in that case. And they took evidence from Steven. Right? So in the course of going through the box, which appeared to have been opened at some point they found a vial of Steven's blood that was still viscous because it had been sealed up and it had been, um, treated with EDTA, which is, uh, uh, the preservative that they use to prevent clotting. [00:19:34] Does that work to prevent clotting? Yes. That's what they put in blood vials to keep it from clotting. If you don't, it would clot instantly, almost. I didn't know that. Yeah. EDTA standard preservative. They use it in cosmetics and all kinds of stuff and a lot of stuff. I mean, it's used in all kinds of things, but yeah, it's also a, it prevents things from coagulating. [00:19:54] So it's a preservative and an antique. [00:19:56] Brian: [00:19:56] So you can test, can you test for that? [00:19:59] Kari: [00:19:59] No, no. That's what's unfortunate. So apparently way, way back in the eighties, the FBI had a test to try to determine if EDTA was present in a blood sample. Um, however, the test was considered notoriously unreliable, and so they stopped doing it because it, it just, it didn't actually prove anything. [00:20:19] So they were like, okay, well we're not going to do this anymore. And yeah, well, we'll, we'll get to that. People who've seen it, know what I'm talking about, but, uh, it was most famously the test to detect whether EDTA was in blood or not was used in the OJ Simpson trial. That is the last time it was used in a trial to test to see if, if it was because OJ had claimed he was framed and they had blood from him for whatever reason. [00:20:49] And they went, so it was a hole, the blood on the. I think it was the window. Sillars I don't know. I don't know that much about the OJ Simpson trial. I haven't, I don't remember anything about it. So it was like 93. So I don't remember, but that was the last time it was used that testing and it was determined to be unreliable then too. [00:21:08] So they were just like, um, we're just not going to do this anymore, but Dean and Jerry wanted to see at first, cause they were like, oh, well, if this is where, because there was a whole cluster fuck of things that made it look like this might be where they got the blood. Like the, the vial had a puncture wound in the wound. [00:21:27] It's a fucking viral, a puncture mark in the top. Although, um, it later was determined that that's just how they are, because that's how they put the blood into the bile. So that wasn't like a, but at first they were like, oh my God, there's a pole in it. Yeah. Well there's supposed to be a hole in it, but it's fine. [00:21:43] And then, um, it was still viscus complete. I mean, it was completely liquid still. There was no clotting in it. There was no. It was, it just looked like blood and a vial that had just been drawn, even though it had been drawn 20 years prior, it was still perfect. And then it was funny because at the, when they went to go look at it, one of the prosecutors and one of the detectives was with them because it was like this. [00:22:09] They had agreed that they could look through the box, but someone from both sides had to be there. So it was Jerry. Was there Jerry Buting one of Steven's attorneys or no, no. Yeah, it was Jerry Dean wasn't there. Jerry was there and then norm gone. And one of the detectives, I think it was Wiegert was there and you could see it, they videotaped the whole thing and you could see how nervous Norman Wiegert were when this vile was found. [00:22:38] And it was still liquid. They looked scared. Jerry had a huge smile on his face, but Norman and, and the detective looked kind of scared. And I was like, I remember thinking at the time when I first saw it, I was like either they know something or they also think that this might be possible, you know? Cause norm was one of the other prosecutors. [00:23:06] I don't know if I mentioned that before norm gone was like the assistant prosecutor on the case. So EMEA was pretty obvious. They were nervous. Well, it [00:23:15] Brian: [00:23:15] could be used to put doubt in there. [00:23:18] Kari: [00:23:18] It throws doubt on their case. And at worst they either knew something was fishy about the whole thing, or they also suspected something was fishy about the whole thing. [00:23:29] And this just kind of was one of those. Maybe it's confirming that fear or that possibility. In their minds. I mean, you don't, they're human. They're allowed to have feelings and emotions too. And I, I think if I were a prosecutor and I got shown this vile of blood, that's still perfectly viable and usable. [00:23:47] And there's blood in a vehicle at a crime scene with absolutely no fingerprints anywhere. But the blood had to have come from a cut on his finger. Allegedly, how does that work? And then the last person to touch that blood vial before was detect was a James link, stretching, sensing a pattern here. Like I'd be nervous too, is my point. [00:24:13] Very, very, very nervous. So they go through all of that and, uh, they, you know, the, the guys, Dean and Jerry had just think, you know, this is going great. Like we're getting all kinds of good at very least stuff to throw doubt on, on Steven's guilt here. Like they. Are getting things that are allowing them to kind of paint a picture of what could have happened. [00:24:37] Cause that's really, all they have to do, right. Is paint a picture to the jury of an alternative theory, but they did admit many, many times that it's really hard to convince a jury that the police would go to this kind of length or, or even to frame anyone at all. Because so many people want to think that the police are just, you know, infallible almost, and, and their, their creme de LA creme and they're the best members of our society. [00:25:04] And that, and that's just not true. Barkley. There [00:25:06] Brian: [00:25:06] has been a large bias that way. I think maybe as of late, that might've changed a little bit, but as of [00:25:14] Kari: [00:25:14] late it's changed dramatically. Well, it [00:25:17] Brian: [00:25:17] depends on where you live and what part of the population you're from, I think, but, well, yeah, but yeah, there, there definitely, I think it'd be easier to get a more balanced jury [00:25:27] Kari: [00:25:27] pool now. [00:25:29] Absolutely. That's why I'm like, can we get Stephen a new trial? Because that's really what that's all we want is a new trial. Because I think if we presented all, if Kathleen presented all the information that she has now to a jury of Steven's peers, anywhere in the country, it doesn't even matter. Now. I really believe that they might see it differently than the way they saw it before. [00:25:55] Because since then, there's been far more instances of fir uh, police, framing, people of police brutality of basically just a lot more incidents of the police overstepping their boundaries with the public at large. And so I think people are a little more skeptical now, myself included of maybe their intention. [00:26:21] Brian: [00:26:21] I think the proliferation of cameras, both in the hands of civilians and body cams and dash cams with the police. Has helped highlight, not only the times when cops do bad things, you know, they, they're more likely to get caught now, but also the times when people falsely accused them. So it protects the good while catching the bad, I think. [00:26:47] Kari: [00:26:47] Right? Absolutely. So back to the EDTA, we were discussing briefly the Dean and Jerry actually ended up ultimately asking the judge to exclude the blood vile from like, from the evidence, because they were like, okay, we can't prove there's no test to determine whether the blood that was in the car had ADT EDTA in it. [00:27:14] So we're not even going to bother, they were bummed to do it, but they ultimately, they decided since they couldn't prove the presence of EDTA that they didn't want to, they weren't even gonna use that piece of evidence in the trial because they. They can't prove that that's where the blood came from and the prosecution could have made them look like fools. [00:27:36] If they had tried was what they were concerned with. So they, but the judge denied the motion because the state had to the FBI crime lab, I believe in Quantico, Virginia, which is where their main offices are. The federal offices are that they had somehow gotten the FBI to develop a test out of freaking nowhere, Terman, whether EDTA was present. [00:28:09] And of course, guess what that test and adult Baltimore showing that it wasn't not, not texted is what the ultimate, but then another expert blood expert that Dean and Jerry ended up calling said that that test is. Ridiculous and completely unreliable can't be trusted at all. Um, especially given that the only communication that was had between the FBI testing facility and the case at all was through the lens of the prosecutor. [00:28:41] They never even talked to Dean and Jerry about it at all. So they don't even know how, like isn't it feasible that like no test was actually run and they just like, you know, please just say that there's no, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't know. I guess you'd have to get the FBI on your side [00:28:59] Brian: [00:28:59] though. [00:28:59] Pretty far fetched for the FBI, I think to just completely fabricate that [00:29:04] Kari: [00:29:04] they have a performance. No, but how did they suddenly develop a test after decades of this suppose a test being unreliable that they develop a new test based on the original technology. How is that any more reliable than the old test that they weren't allowed to use anymore? [00:29:19] Brian: [00:29:19] Not necessarily is any more reliable. [00:29:22] Kari: [00:29:22] Yeah, it was just, it was just a whole, I mean, that's the whole reason why Dean and Jerry ended up wanting to not use it ultimately because, but what they were afraid of ended up freaking happening anyways, because, you know, Ken Kratz, wouldn't let it go. So like he never lets anything go. [00:29:39] So, you know, it's, it's fine. Uh, one of my favorite was, uh, Tom Fallon. He was another, one of the members of the prosecution team is quoted as saying, and I saw the clip. It was quoted as saying if the defense wants to put forth a defense that they are suggesting and implying in their pleadings today, talking about, um, the police planting evidence, that's specifically what they're talking about, then they do so at their peril, like, and he said it in this big dramatic way, like, like basically he was saying like, how dare you imply that the police would ever. [00:30:20] Frame anyone for anything ever. And how dare you, you know, and it's like, um, well it happens all the time. So I mean, oh, [00:30:32] Brian: [00:30:32] that'd be fair. We don't know how often it happens for sure, [00:30:34] Kari: [00:30:34] but the numbers for that or anything. But we do know what happens. There's been many cases where it's been proven to happen. It does happen including on video recently, the dude planting drugs with a cop planting drugs to bus somebody. [00:30:47] So, I mean, I know that's small potatoes by comparison, but still this [00:30:52] Brian: [00:30:52] trail happened when [00:30:54] Kari: [00:30:54] 2007. Okay. And the crime happened in 2005. [00:30:59] Brian: [00:30:59] So a lot less of that was around in the public eye at that point, [00:31:05] Kari: [00:31:05] especially in rural. Well, yes, we are talking about no middle of nowhere, Wisconsin here. So anyway, uh, it was just kind of funny that felon was just like they do so at their peril. [00:31:18] And Dean and Jerry were like, aye, that's fine. We know. Thank you again, already established that Brendan had refused to testify against Steven and his, his original, well, not really original, but the statements that he was coerced into giving were used to add three charges to Stephen's charges. So Dean and Jerry, of course will, Brendan's not testifying against him. [00:31:45] So we want those three charges thrown out because without Brendan's testimony, there's no proof any of that that occurred, right? I mean, right. It's just usual legal stuff. Also. They asked the judge to give curative jury instruction about if those charges are removed, then he to give jury instruction. [00:32:09] Basically saying as far as y'all are concerned, those charges never even existed. Right? Here's the thing though about curative jury instructions, which they do all the time, by the way, all the time, it can be someone testifies incorrectly or a prosecutor. Like what happened in a recently, relatively recently, locally where the prosecutor asked a question, she knew her full well, she wasn't supposed to ask. [00:32:34] And, uh, yeah, that case just mistrial boom right there, because the judge was like, I can't give a curative jury instruction that will fix that. No, but the reality is you can't give a curative jury instruction about anything that will fix it. And they know [00:32:51] Brian: [00:32:51] that, but they have to weigh how much [00:32:56] Kari: [00:32:56] I realized that because canceling and restarting a trial is a very expensive time consuming process. [00:33:01] And I understand that, but there are certain things that there is no jury instruction you could give that would erase what they just heard saw. Just no way. [00:33:15] Brian: [00:33:15] Right, but just having charges there without [00:33:21] Kari: [00:33:21] I also wanted was for the judge to give curative jury instruction based around the pretrial publicity. [00:33:28] Most specifically the March 2nd press conference that Ken held no instruction, you could give that will erase that horrific, nasty, disgusting, unethical, illegal statement from anyone's minds. [00:33:45] Brian: [00:33:45] If the jurors heard that that would be very hard to give they're they're biased. They're going to be slightly biased to start with. [00:33:52] And there's really nothing you can do about that. [00:33:55] Kari: [00:33:55] Well, I, and I mean, I understand that, like in order to get a completely unbiased jury in any situation, you have to have the trial on a different planet. I mean, you know, especially now with the way information spreads so quickly, what used to be, you know, back when this happened was just a local. [00:34:15] It was a local case. It was a local news story. Like really nobody outside of Wisconsin even knew about it. Just like the west Memphis three case nobody outside of west Memphis or out of outside of Arkansas, knew about it until paradise lost. And same with this one, nobody even really knew about it until making a murderer. [00:34:40] And it just proves the power of technology now and the power. And now it spreads almost instantly. Like I see every day I read about cases that happened, you know, in Florida or Texas or stuff that I never would have even known about, you know, 10 years, social media [00:35:00] Brian: [00:35:00] makes things it's instant [00:35:02] Kari: [00:35:02] news now. And they go all over the place. [00:35:04] I know it's crazy. I mean, it's both great and horrible. It's great because we're, we're able to get instant information, which is nice, especially during a, a global pandemic. It's kinda nice to get instant information on certain things to stay informed. However, with criminal cases, I think it's actually dangerous to have information spreading so quickly because you know, you're going to get misinformation because reporters are trying to beat other reporters to the story. [00:35:34] And so you're going to get misinformation. You're going to get missing information. You're going to get just flat out wrong information. You're going to get, uh, biases and preconceived notions based on emotion because it's instant. So no, one's had time to sit on it for a minute and like reflect and think and, and, and lead with facts, not emotion cause emotions cause a lot of problems a lot. [00:36:01] Right? I mean a lot. So, yeah. Anyway, so the instant information we have now is, is both a blessing and a curse. I think. So the judge decided ultimately to go ahead and get rid of the extra charges that had been added after Brendan statement because of the fact that he wasn't going to testify. So there was nobody to corroborate that those charges should be there. [00:36:29] You know what I mean? Like there's, they came from Brendan statement. If Brendan statement is not going to be admitted at Steven's trial, then you can't have those charges. That's just kind of the basic way the law works. [00:36:39] Brian: [00:36:39] There's no, uh, there's no reason for those charges to be there. They don't have evidence or anything else to sustain those charges without his [00:36:48] Kari: [00:36:48] testimony. [00:36:49] So exactly. And, uh, Ken's reaction to Dean and Jerry, even asking for those charges, like how dare they even ask to remove charges that I. Put on there, here was what he said to the judge. He says, if we have to start this case, swimming upstream, if you will, in the face of some introduction to the jury, that they should be taking a negative view of the state, then we intend to proceed on all six counts. [00:37:25] Dean stands up in his basic, I'm going to paraphrase because I can't remember exactly what he said, but he basically looked at Ken with a look that said, what the fuck? And then he looked at the judge and he said, the state is supposed to start supposed to start. I can't speak today. All criminal cases, swimming, upstream, innocent until duh, you know, Oh, oh, I did write down his quote. [00:37:54] The state is supposed to start all criminal cases, swimming upstream, and the strong current against which the state is swimming is the presumption of innocence. Thank you, Dean. You know, innocent until proven guilty. The way our justice system is supposed to work. No Naynay. I say it is now guilty until proven innocent well, in public opinion in any way, that's what I'm saying. [00:38:20] But the problem is the court of public opinion bleeds all over the actual justice system and taints it until it's just, it's a useless shell of what it used to be. It's pathetic and, and judges and juries allow it. That's the problem. They allow outside opinion and pressure to influence how they look at it and that's wrong. [00:38:46] It's just wrong. There's I don't know how else to put it. It's just wrong. It's wrong. He tried to argue, Dean was arguing that the strong media coverage, and of course the televised reading of Brendan's confession makes it impossible for Steven to get a fair trial or an unbiased jury in the state, Wisconsin. [00:39:08] That's probably absolutely true. So I simply asked the judge to, because at this point you can't move the trial. You can't it's too late for all of that. They already moved it from Manitowoc county to Calumet county. They're not moving it anywhere else. And Dean knows this. That's why all he was asking for was for the judge to at minimum, give some kind of curative jury instruction. [00:39:31] That makes sense. Right. Because at that point he knows he can't do anything else. He can't tissue to have the trial moved again. He can't like it's too late for that. We're already in it to win it and it's done. That's it. So, I mean, what are you going to do? Like. Even though I think curative jury instructions are useless. [00:39:48] Most of the time it's better than nothing. I suppose. At least it puts that little bit of like something in the back of some people's minds. I mean, all you really need is a couple of people to be like, okay, cool. So Dean asked for the curative jury instruction, you figured it was the least that could be done to at least attempt to, I don't know. [00:40:10] I don't even know what he was thinking other than it's all he could do. Unfortunately, judge Willis denied the request for a curative jury instructions, so that did not occur. Bummer, [00:40:20] Brian: [00:40:20] no curative jury instruction on the statements given in public. Is that what we're talking about? Right. Okay. I [00:40:28] Kari: [00:40:28] know, right. [00:40:29] I didn't think it was cool. Ultimately, the state dismissed two of the three charges that had been added because of Brendan, uh, the sexual assault charge and the kidnapping charge. It left four charges for the trial itself. First degree, intentional homicide mutilation of a corpse felon in possession of a firearm and false imprisonment. [00:40:52] Those were the four charges that Stephen ultimately went to trial for. Okay. So one of the other things that Dean and Jerry had an issue with was out of the 130 jury questionnaires that they had gotten from all the prospective jurors who had been called for jury duty. Only one of those people said they thought Steven might be innocent [00:41:18] Brian: [00:41:18] out of all of them. [00:41:19] Only one even had a [00:41:20] Kari: [00:41:20] possibility of yeah, a hundred. That means a hundred, the 129 out of the 130 potential jurors already thought Steven was guilty. Um, the jury pool wasn't tainted at all. Ken, [00:41:37] Brian: [00:41:37] no, that deck wasn't stacked. [00:41:40] Kari: [00:41:40] I know. And the jurors. Were chosen in Manitowoc county. They didn't move, move the trial to Calumet until after they'd done all the pretrial hearings and the, the jury selection. [00:41:57] The look on your face is spectacular right now. I know [00:42:03] Brian: [00:42:03] we're going to move the trial, but keep the jury from the tainted county. Yup. I know what the whole, what's the point of moving the trial, then? [00:42:13] Kari: [00:42:13] That's what I was like, why did you even bother if you'd already done all the pretrial hearings and selected the jury in Manitowoc county, then you're like, what was it just to make it look like we're trying public appearance. [00:42:24] Right, exactly. And maybe to appease, I don't know, like the family or something to like, make it appear like they were trying to, I don't know, because what they should've done was moved the trial to Calumet county and select a whole new jury. That's what they should have done. Did they do that? Fuck. No. Why they wanted Steven to be convicted. [00:42:50] They want to win. Exactly. So Ken of course made his opening statement. Mr. Theatrical himself. I'm sure love loved doing, because I mean, you know, those are, you can kind of summarize the whole thing in a nutshell, what you're going to be, what the jury is going to be seeing and all that. And that both sides have their opportunities obviously, but those moments, especially fun for such a theatrical prosecutor like Ken. [00:43:19] So, you know, I mean he milked it for all. It was worth showing, showing them photos and really stressing what a wonderful person Theresa was, which I'm sure was absolutely true. I mean, I'm not, I would never victim blame on, she did not ask for what happened to her. She did not deserve what happened her. [00:43:40] But what they claim happened to her did not happen to her. Do you know what I'm saying? Like they made it sound like this poor woman went through this horrifically vicious throat, slashing, stomachs, dubbing, rape, beating, head shooting, horrendous body, cut up horrendous thing. And only one of those things could be proven at all, which was the fact that the body had been tampered with in some way, because all they found was bones, but they didn't even find all her bones. [00:44:12] So where's the other 50% of her body that you couldn't. [00:44:17] Brian: [00:44:17] So I'm guessing the rest came exclusively from the, uh, confession that they [00:44:25] Kari: [00:44:25] coerced out of. Brendan. Brendan. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Ken stuck to that. He still, I mean, I'll give him that he committed, like you read about he, he was stuck to that story. [00:44:38] Like, regardless of the fact that there was, oh, wait, the new word from the dictionary. IR, regardless of the fact that, um, there was no evidence, none zip, zilch, nada, like, but I'll give him the fact that he stuck to it. I mean, it, it, that took balls to stick to a story that you absolutely can't prove. Like that's pretty, pretty ballsy. [00:45:04] And unfortunately, as we know it worked because he'd already tainted everyone. He'd already put this horrible picture in these people's minds for months and months. I mean, for a year and a half, he put these hurt, well, a year he put these horrific images into their heads. He wouldn't shut up. He was doing press conferences, every chance he got, he was doing interviews every chance he got. [00:45:29] So, and he kept telling the same story. I mean, after a while, I truly believe he believed his own story. [00:45:36] Brian: [00:45:36] Repetition is a way of programming people's brains. Even if it's you telling you a known false story, you can make it true to yourself to somewhat some degree, but to the public at large and the jury pool, you've told them this over and over again, they've heard the actual confession that you're not allowing them here in court. [00:45:57] Right. They don't really, if they've heard it enough, they don't really even need to see any evidence of it. They're convinced. [00:46:03] Kari: [00:46:03] Yeah. It's just, it's just messy, no matter how you slice it. But anyway, so he did his opening statement. It was a big dramatic thing he kept focusing on. Of course, Teresa rightfully so. [00:46:14] That's why we're there. And, but he also kept hammering the point that Stephen's wrongful conviction in 1985 for rent had for rape had absolutely nothing to do with this case. And I like, I beg to differ, sir. It has 36 million reasons to be involved in this case. Sorry. I keep stressing that, but I, I feel like it's important because people want to know why people questioned, why this, why they would do this. [00:46:46] Why they would go to so much trouble to, to convict someone of a crime date. They quite likely didn't commit and on. And I'm like the lawsuit, [00:46:57] Brian: [00:46:57] the reason a lot of people do things, money, money, money, [00:47:00] Kari: [00:47:00] it would have bankrupted everyone. So they it's. Yeah. That's why like, stop asking why, because that's why it's because of the money. [00:47:13] And they knew if they could get them on something serious enough to lock him up and throw away the key. They would never have to pay that money because no, one's going to give $36 million to a convicted murderer. [00:47:25] Brian: [00:47:25] No, and they're not even likely to give 36 million to somebody who's on trial [00:47:30] Kari: [00:47:30] for murder. [00:47:31] Well, yeah. And what it ultimately did is it forced him into a position where he had to settle that lawsuit for $450,000 because he needed money to pay Dean and Jerry, he didn't have the money to pay for Dean and Jerry Dean and Jerry were top notch attorneys in Wisconsin. They were freaking expensive. [00:47:50] So they knew if they convicted, if they at very least got him. I mean, I don't know if their end game was to actually have him be convicted. I don't think they thought that far ahead. What I think they thought was if we can get him in trouble for something huge, he's going to have to settle the lawsuit to get money, to pay for attorneys. [00:48:12] We don't really care how it ends up. All we care is that he settles. So we never have to pay $36 million. I really think that's kind of how it started. Not that I don't know that convicting him was initially the end game. I mean, obviously that would be Ken's end game because he can't stand losing. But the initially when they first thought up the frame job, when she went missing and it just so happened, she'd been at his house right before that. [00:48:40] I think it clicked in someone's mind, James link. Um, that, that's just my opinion. Don't at me. Don't come for me, Mr. Link. But your douche, um, I think it popped into their heads that, well, if we can get Steven for this, he'll have to settle the lawsuit to pay for a lawyer because they knew he didn't have money to pay for a lawyer. [00:49:05] And then we can get out from a lawsuit who gives a fuck, how it goes like that doesn't matter whether he gets convicted or convicted or not, doesn't matter, just get him to settle the lawsuit. But Ken being Ken has to win. So. You know, this, this is just my opinion. [00:49:26] Brian: [00:49:26] It's hard to say [00:49:27] Kari: [00:49:27] because you can't guarantee a conviction, no matter what someone did or didn't do, no matter what you alleged, they did, like, you can't guarantee a conviction, but you can guarantee that he's going to need money to pay for a lawyer to defend himself against something so serious. [00:49:41] And they know he doesn't have money. So that's motivation for Steven to settle the lawsuit $450,000 is nothing compared to 36. Yeah, that's true. That's like pennies, you know, comparatively. So it works. I mean, if that was their game plan, it certainly worked because he settled the lawsuit to pay Dean and Jerry, because he couldn't afford to pay them otherwise. [00:50:09] And you know, and people like, well, if Dean and Jerry were, were decent people, they would have, uh, done it pro bono and I'm like, Not every lawyer can afford to do cases pro bono. Well, and [00:50:22] Brian: [00:50:22] also there's, you have to, not only your time as a lawyer, it's all the staff, your paralegals, all of them, there's filing, [00:50:33] Kari: [00:50:33] they're doing research [00:50:33] Brian: [00:50:33] there's filing fees. [00:50:34] Any testing has to be paid for a lawyer doing something pro bono is losing money. They're spending money [00:50:41] Kari: [00:50:41] out of pocket handover fist because, uh, Kathleen Zellner, uh, Stephen's current post-conviction attorney, who's amazing is doing everything pro bono with the assist, with the help of donations from those of us who support Steven, but it doesn't even come close to what it actually costs. [00:51:04] I mean, she put probably, I think I can't remember the exact number, but it was like for, just for a forensic testing that she had requested, it's like $200,000 of her own money. [00:51:15] Brian: [00:51:15] Yes, it's expensive to run a good case, [00:51:17] Kari: [00:51:17] hurt her firm's money. It wasn't like came out of her pocket, but it was her firm's money, which I mean, kind of comes out of her pocket. [00:51:23] So yeah, it's not a cheap thing. And, and you have to hire experts and those experts don't do it for free. Like, I mean, they don't do it for free. Nobody does anything for free people. Like this is their jobs, the forensic experts, that's what they do for a living. And they have to get paid, especially since, while they're doing a trial while they're testifying in court, they're missing out on days of work. [00:51:48] Just like when you get called for jury duty and you're missing out on days of work and the state gives you that teeny tiny little compensation. That is ridiculous. But a lot of people's employers. Now my old employer, your employer, I believe honey pays you like 75% of your wage or something. If you're on jury duty for longer than however, you know. [00:52:09] Yeah. But not everywhere does that. And when you have experts, testifying, they could be testifying for weeks that's weeks of missed income that they could have been making by doing their actual regular, everyday job. So yeah, they need, they need to get paid and it costs money to pay people in case you were wondering how that works. [00:52:35] So I know, sorry that was a little testy, but it's just, it all costs money. The whole system cost money. And because it is a business, just like anything else. And so it costs a lot of money. And so you have to, you know, Dean and Jerry couldn't afford to not get paid, but then also have to pay for forensic testing and experts and all that. [00:53:00] Like it, that's not usually how it works is the lawyer gets paid and then the lawyer pays the forensic experts. So they're actually taking a cut out of their pay a lot of times to pay for the experts if you can't afford to pay for all the experts yourself [00:53:14] Brian: [00:53:14] sometimes, but usually [00:53:16] Kari: [00:53:16] they just bill you for it. [00:53:17] Usually sometimes you get a decent lawyer who will do it, where they will still get paid, but then they'll pay for the experts. I've seen that happen before, and that's very nice of them to do it's even nicer when they do it pro bono, but that's not always feasible, especially in such a huge murder case. [00:53:35] That's one of the problems. So then Jerry Buting gets up and does his opening statement. And I remember one of the things he said was that opening statements are often, far more important than closing arguments. Some lawyers would argue that, but he thinks it's far more important because you can totally lose the jury in your opening statement, if you do it wrong and if you lose them, then you've lost them for the whole thing it's over. [00:54:02] It's done before it's even started. He's like, obviously you, you don't know that until the end, but he's like it, you have to have a really strong opening statement, which is where someone like Ken kind of thrives, because he's really good at the dramatic emotional, you got to hit them in the heartstrings is kind of what I'm trying to say here. [00:54:23] You got to appeal to their emotions as much as possible, as quickly as possible in the opening, because once you get into all the forensic stuff and I mean, it's complicated and it's stressful. And a lot of it is way over most people's heads scientifically. So you really need to win them with the emotion from the jump, because you're going to lose them somewhere in the forensic part of it. [00:54:56] Mentally, you know, because they're going to kind of tune out because I mean, that's just human nature. When, when you're presented with something you don't actually understand, you tend to tune it out. So you have to, and not a lot of people are, are science savvy, especially forensic science savvy. That's, it's a very complicated, weird side of science that that can be very overwhelming. [00:55:19] And so like, you know, the opening statements important. Cause if you can catch them early with emotion, then there's less of a chance of you completely losing them when the science-y complicated stuff comes out. So then, oh, I'm sorry. Jerry was talking about how important opening statements are. Dean gave the actual opening statement. [00:55:41] I misread my note. I'm sorry. And so he started talking about something very important in his opening, which was the wrongful conviction lawsuit that Steven had been. Lodging against Manitowoc county and, and its officials, because obviously, like we just said and have said many times throughout these episodes, that's whole reason why they would frame him if that is what they did very important to hit the jury with that. [00:56:10] And so he focused a lot on, he talked about how, when, uh, Theresa was reported missing by her mother on November 3rd. So a full, almost four days after she had actually gone missing, uh, Sergeant Andrew Colburn was asked to check on the locations that she had gone to on October 31st to take her photos as a freelance photographer for auto trader magazine. [00:56:36] Yeah. And the two places that she had gone that afternoon was obviously Steven's place the Avery salvage yard property. And then the zipper residence what's interesting is he was asked to go to both and talk to, I believe his name is George zipper. And Steven about or Steven's family, whoever was there about Theresa being there. [00:56:58] He only went to Stevens. He never went to the zipper residence, which is where he, she was. I can't remember if she went there before she went to Stevens or after she went to Stevens, but he never went and talked to Mr. Zipper. [00:57:13] Brian: [00:57:13] Oh, I thought you said early on that Steven was the last [00:57:18] Kari: [00:57:18] then he, she must've gone to the zipper residence right before that. [00:57:22] Brian: [00:57:22] Okay. Well that would kind of make sense. Then you go to the last, did she make it to her last appointment? Okay. Yes. Then, you know, she made it to the first one and made it [00:57:32] Kari: [00:57:32] away. Right? Well, Teresa, when Teresa was reported missing by her mother, she lived Teresa and her roommate, Scott Bluhdorn and then her family lived nearby. [00:57:47] They lived in Calumet county. So. When she was reported missing, she was reported missing to Calumet county. Then of course, it came out that she'd been in Manitowoc at Stevens and was going also to the zippers. And I think she had a couple other stops that day too earlier on in the day. So Lieutenant link, finding out, after finding out that Theresa had been in Manitowoc personally called the Calumet county Sheriff's office before then all they knew was Teresa was missing. [00:58:19] That's all they knew at this point. And, and that Steven's house was somewhere. She had been that day and he calls up and offers to help with the investigation into Teresa's disappearance. No, without any prompting or anything like that, just calls up and offers help, which from what Dean said is not something that a Lieutenant would normally do. [00:58:46] Wouldn't normally just unsolicited call up. A neighboring county to help with at that point was just a missing persons investigation. That's ju it just came across as very like, we'll help Stephen. She was at Steven's we'll we'll we're on it. You know, that's what it came across as is what I'm trying to say is [00:59:10] Brian: [00:59:10] possible. [00:59:11] Um, not knowing the full circumstances. [00:59:13] Kari: [00:59:13] I don't know the full circumstances. I'm just telling you what Dean was making points of was that there was odd abnormal behavior, like Lieutenant link had never, ever, ever prior to this ever called any neighboring area and offered to help on any case ever, including ones that were more agregious than a missing person. [00:59:35] So it was just one of those things where it was like, why this one? Why not all those other ones that have happened, but this one, because she was at Steven's that's why, you know what I mean? Like that's kind of where he was trying to go. Yeah. Yeah. Which I'm not saying he's wrong because why did he never offer help on anything else? [00:59:58] But this one, he was like, gung ho you know, like it's just suspicious. That's all I'm saying. It's just, it's suspicious. And then on, on November 5th, when Pam and Nicole Sturm, we talked about them before. They're the ones who found the RAV4 on the Avery salvage property immediately after the police arrived and confirmed that the RAV4 was indeed Teresa's. [01:00:20] Um, an officer named detective Jacobs called dispatch and said, do we have a body or anything yet? And the dispatcher says, I don't believe so. And detective Jacob says, do we have Steven Avery in custody though? Steven [01:00:41] Brian: [01:00:41] Navy? Well, The Rav four was found on there. He found [01:00:46] Kari: [01:00:46] the Rav four on the that's it, those Theresa was still just missing. [01:00:50] They'd found no body, no evidence of, of any kind of bad thing happening to her at that point. Other than the RAV4, there's probably about 10 people who live on that property. And the guys specifically says, do we have Steven Avery in custody though? Yeah, it's fucked [01:01:12] Brian: [01:01:12] up. I'm just playing the devil's advocate here a little bit in that it was found on their property. [01:01:17] He was the last appointment, the last person to see her alive, so to speak. So, [01:01:25] Kari: [01:01:25] but they didn't [01:01:26] Brian: [01:01:26] know she was dead. No, but she's missing. And he is the last person to see her and the vehicles on their property that [01:01:32] Kari: [01:01:32] have him in custody. They already talked to him two days before he already told them the story. [01:01:42] Brian: [01:01:42] Yeah. He might've thought that they wanted to pick him up to do a more thorough interrogation. [01:01:49] Kari: [01:01:49] It, it just is another example of the instantaneous bias and assumptions that the police had from the jump. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. And that's what Dean was saying is there was obviously bias where they didn't look. [01:02:05] This was just like a few examples of, and the bias goes deeper and deeper as the, as the stuff went on. But the, this was just to show that even from the jump from the very, very beginning, there was instantaneous tunnel vision on Steven and only Steven, even though there's so many other people that live on that property too, and other people that may have meant Teresa harm outside of there, that they never once looked at through the whole entire thing. [01:02:36] It was Stephen and only Stephen the entire time. [01:02:39] Brian: [01:02:39] Yeah. I mean, the possibility exists. He was the last to see her. She left there, but then somebody else from the Avery family or the surrounding area saw her and whatever, and then had access to dispose of the vehicle there. But it does put Steven as the primary suspect at that point, [01:03:01] Kari: [01:03:01] I wouldn't say it shouldn't have made him a suspect, a person of interest. [01:03:04] Yes. But I don't think it should have made a Messiah. They didn't even have any evidence that anything had even happened to her yet. Well, I know finding the car gives you the assumption that some, but I'm just saying like the law does not leave room for assumptions. That's the problem. It shouldn't leave room for assumptions. [01:03:23] Let me put it that way. Well, there [01:03:25] Brian: [01:03:25] always has to be assumptions. [01:03:27] Kari: [01:03:27] I like facts. [01:03:29] Brian: [01:03:29] Yes. But what you have to start with assumptions and work from there to see what facts [01:03:34] Kari: [01:03:34] confirm, but you know, as well as I do, because we've already talked about this, that there's more than just. Those instances there's many, many times where they completely ignore other potential suspects and persons of interest, other situ I mean, they just it's Steven, Steven, Steven, Steven seem Steve, Steve period, even hornswoggle is six, a mentally deficient 16 year old because Steven, Steven, Steven, Steven, Steven, not because, I mean, there were other potential suspects. [01:04:07] Brian: [01:04:07] Yeah. I'm just pointing that. Some things kind of make sense. If you were to jury sitting there listening to it, you could see how this could make sense. [01:04:17] Kari: [01:04:17] One. I mean, you know, spoiler alert, the prosecution wins this one in case you didn't already know that. Um, it just, it just, I mean, the way I saw it was, it just showed the intense bias that they already had established. [01:04:37] That just wasn't fair. There were other directions. They also cause you're supposed to, when someone is murdered and at this point they didn't even know she was murdered, but when someone is murdered and you find out they're murdered, you always start from their closest inner circle and work your way out. [01:04:57] Not [01:04:58] Brian: [01:04:58] always, well, most it depends on the circumstances and if she didn't go missing around the time or place, when she was around people, she was hurting [01:05:09] Kari: [01:05:09] in a circle. It was also the sketchiness of the fact that Scott Bluhdorn, her, her roommate didn't even report her missing for like three days, but then says to the police, I'm worried because she never spends the night. [01:05:27] Outside of, of home. She never, she never goes and stays overnight away from home ever. So I'm I was concerned then why the fuck did you wait three days to tell her mother she was missing? Right, [01:05:39] Brian: [01:05:39] right. That does seem a little strange, but also the vehicle at this point she's missing, but the vehicles on the Avery property, [01:05:50] Kari: [01:05:50] it's [01:05:50] Brian: [01:05:50] not where he has direct access to [01:05:54] Kari: [01:05:54] actually he did, but we'll get to that later. [01:05:58] Okay. That, that comes into play, uh, during trial, but also, uh, in a lot of the more current stuff with Kathleen, but, okay. So anyway, I don't want to sit here and go through every single piece of evidence in trial and bullshit, because let me tell you if you've watched it, you know, what a nightmarish migraine that can cause, because it's just so damn frustrating, you have all of the different. [01:06:22] People who were testifying as Sherry Cole Hain, which was one of the forensic investigators who tested DNA stuff. And I do want to touch on the one thing with her that is just completely infuriating. First of all, she was asked by Steven's attorneys, if any DNA had been found anywhere that would support Theresa being inside Steven's house, inside Steven's garage, inside, whatever, none just that bullet fragment thing that was found in the garage. [01:06:54] That's it. Right. Okay. Here's the kicker. When she tested the bullet fragment, the lab that she works at and all the lab forensic laboratories around the country have very stringent rules and processes and the policies, if a sample is contaminated, Or what have you, right. So they always use control a control sample to try to, you know, I don't even know exactly how it works, but you have the actual sample and you have a control sample, and you're supposed to do them both at the same time. [01:07:34] And it's to try to make sure there's no contamination and yada, yada, yada, I don't know exactly how it works. I'm not a forensic analyst, but while she was testing the bullet fragment, she had the bullet fragment sample and the control sample. She inadvertently contaminated the control sample with her own DNA. [01:07:58] She thinks it's because she was teaching a new person, like she was instructing a new forensic tester analyst person, and she was talking and she thinks maybe while she was talking like some droplets exited her mouth and somehow got onto the sample, the control. However, the company policy is that she worked for, is that if there is any contamination of either the actual sample or the control sample, cause that's what it's for. [01:08:35] You are to consider the test inconclusive and start over. Right. That's the policy makes sense. Right. They didn't do that. They didn't [01:08:50] Brian: [01:08:50] know. They just went with [01:08:52] Kari: [01:08:52] the one. Yeah. Her excuse was there wasn't enough left to run and that they, that she'd used all of the actual DNA testing sample to run the test. [01:09:07] So if she deemed it inconclusive, she could run it again because there wasn't enough material to run it again. So screw it. Let's go with it. Yeah. The only time her company has ever violated protocol before that, or since, and she was instructed to do that by who fact bender. Yes. I just called him fact bender. [01:09:39] I was referring to detective Fassbender. [01:09:43] Brian: [01:09:43] How does he have say over how the lab does? Its internal stuff [01:09:48] Kari: [01:09:48] was that he had some sort of working relationship with her bosses. And so they, her bosses made the decision to allow it because otherwise they wouldn't be able to have a test at all because there was no more, but that also means that there was nothing for the defense to test themselves. [01:10:09] Right. So [01:10:11] Brian: [01:10:11] we have a working relationship between the lab and the police. Oh, there's [01:10:15] Kari: [01:10:15] some other questions, more. Before the botched test that honestly should have been deemed inconclusive based on their policies and procedures in every case before. And since that they only violated for Stevens case suspicious, suspicious suspicion, there was, you know, most like offices have interoffice memo, things like little note pads, like a secretarial write or type like notes from phone calls or whatnot. [01:10:50] Yeah. They defense uncovered a note. I'm trying to see if I can find the, my notes on it, because I believe there was, I wrote the actual thing down, but I don't want to distract myself either. So there was a note from Fassbender too. Very cool Hayne, which was the woman running all the DNA stuff. That specifically stated it listed off, like, here's what we're sending you like samples from this sample, from this sample, from this, and then underneath it in like quotes Taishan type thing. [01:11:32] It said place her in his house or garage. [01:11:39] Brian: [01:11:39] So in other words, this is your [01:11:42] Kari: [01:11:42] goal. Yup. That's exactly what it means, even though Fassbender wants to deny it. You know, that's what it fucking means. That's what it reads as it lists. Like I said, it did your usual list off. Here's what we're sending. And it was all the different samples from all the different things, including item F L, which was the bullet fragment. [01:12:04] And then the bullet fragment is one of the last things she tested because everything else she tested before that, nothing. [01:12:14] Brian: [01:12:14] Okay. So everything else before that. Came up, nothing she had this instruction will say to place him in or place her in that house or garage. Then on the last thing, she screws up the test, but comes up with a positive and runs with it. [01:12:34] Kari: [01:12:34] Yep. When by company policy, it should have been deemed inconclusive because she had contaminated the, the control sample with her own DNA. Yes. [01:12:47] Brian: [01:12:47] Is this lab located in Manitowoc? [01:12:51] Kari: [01:12:51] That's a good question. I'm not sure do they do. Yeah. I believe she's a Calumet county for us to forensic investigator, but I could be wrong. [01:12:58] Wondering, [01:12:58] Brian: [01:12:58] is it located there? How much business comes their way from that county? Is there a reason to further that relationship? Sorry. That's the suspicious me going? [01:13:12] Kari: [01:13:12] Well, I mean, she's an attractive blonde and he's a. Tall, very handsome, older gentlemen with salt and pepper hair. [01:13:22] Brian: [01:13:22] Well, I'm not even saying on a personal level, but that is possible too, but on a professional level, since the lab, if they get enough business from these police agencies, they may want to make sure that they go there instead of another competing lab. [01:13:38] Kari: [01:13:38] Right. So that was one of the things that really, really, really pissed me off when I'm like, how dare you, how breaching company policy for this one case, like that's not suspicious at all. And then, you know, and then they had, um, family members testify against Steven. That was, you know, it was primarily Scott. [01:14:05] Uh, Barb's now at that point, I believe husband's so stepfather to Brendan and Bobby and the other DASSI boys. And Bobby Dassey himself, because he had claimed that, uh, he was at home when Teresa, which was true. Cause Steven said that he was there to Bobby Dassey was at home when Theresa came over to take pictures of the van. [01:14:32] Uh, Bobby is Brendan's brother Barb's son, other son. Okay. So he says that he was there. He saw Teresa show up. He was getting ready to go hunting or something. He was going to go bow hunting that, uh, afternoon, early evening. And when he left to go bow hunting, he claims that he saw Teresa's car was still there, but he didn't see Theresa anymore, but he left to go hunting. [01:15:03] Allegedly Steven's story. Is that, you know, he met up with Theresa, she took pictures of the van. He gave her the money and the, the description of the van to put in the ad. Um, they said goodbye. She handed him a copy of Autotrader when she got in her car and a bill of sale so that when the sale went through, he had a, uh, copy to, to do like she always did. [01:15:29] And she left, he goes inside, puts the magazine down. He comes now he knew Bobby was home. Cause his rig was in front of Barb's house, which is right next door to Steven's house. Not, I mean, it's several yards away, but it's there. And when he went back outside, he wanted to go ask Bobby something. So he comes and goes back outside, goes, walk over. [01:15:50] Bobby's Chuck's gone. And he can still see Teresa go. According to him, driving to the end of the road. It's really long driveway dirt road. That goes all the way out to the main highway. He could still see Teresa. But he didn't see Bobby Kathleen's gone out there and looked. And if you're standing where Steven was standing, there's actually like a hill. [01:16:13] So you can see the end of the road where it dumps out onto the highway, but there's a huge chunk of road you can't see because there's a hill in the way. So she believes that Bobby was I'm getting ahead of myself, [01:16:27] Brian: [01:16:27] basically that he was leaving down that road behind Teresa, because that's the way out and right behind them [01:16:36] Kari: [01:16:36] where the hill might be heading. [01:16:38] I can get [01:16:39] where [01:16:39] Brian: [01:16:39] you're heading with it. I'm just not me. He would have been behind the hill hidden from Steven's view. At that [01:16:46] Kari: [01:16:46] point, Steven walked from Theresa to his house. Bobby's I think it was a 4runner or an Explorer or something was there when he came back outside, not a minute and a half later. [01:17:00] Bobby's truck was gone, but he could still see, cause he looked out to the road and he could see Theresa at almost to the end of the driveway to turn on the highway, but he didn't think anything of it. So he just turned around and went back in his house. Like, I mean, what was he? There's nothing suspicious. [01:17:15] She's leaving. Bobby May have left. Okay, cool. That's fine. I just talk to him later and he goes back to his day, planning the bonfire for Halloween. So it's like, you know, whatever. There's just so much that it's so fucked up, but anyway, they go through the whole trial. There's all kinds of stuff. Bobby testifies against Steven Scott testifies against Steven, a bunch of detectives testify, cops testify. [01:17:42] It's just a whole long drawn out, honestly, depressing thing as Ken is of course showboating the entire time. Dean. And Jerry are just trying to get everyone to understand that there is most definitely doubt in this case. Like it's, it's not as cut and dried as Ken wants you to think it is. But obviously because of all the pretrial press and all of the stuff that Ken kept doing to really tap into the emotions of the jury, the reality is I could sit here and talk about the trial for three hours and go into detail about every single thing. [01:18:19] But what's the point because they lost. If you want to know all the details, there's a million places. You can go to find those. But the fact of the matter is Stephen was found guilty on every count except for mutilation of a corpse, because they couldn't prove that he mutilated the corpse, but the jury seemed to think they could prove everything else. [01:18:42] So, yeah. I mean, what, what can you say? Like, there was so much doubt, but. Ken has so thoroughly tainted that jury pool by then, before the trial even started, he had so, so thoroughly tainted the pool, that there was no way that they were ever going to see anything else in their heads, no matter what Dean and Jerry said. [01:19:08] And I, unfortunately I think Dean and Jerry really knew that deep down, they didn't want to believe it, but I think they knew it deep down that they were fucked from the beginning. You can kind of see it almost, if you watch the documentary, you can kind of see that they're trying. So it's hard, it's an [01:19:25] Brian: [01:19:25] uphill battle and which it shouldn't be, but it [01:19:27] Kari: [01:19:27] was, it was supposed to be uphill battle for, for Ken, not for Dean and Jerry, but yeah, it was just, it's so sad. [01:19:35] I mean, there's all kinds of, you had the forensic pathologist, Leslie Eisenberg testify about the bone fragments. Oh, there's the Sherry Culhane stuff. I found my notes. The note from Fassbender said, try to put her T H in his S a house and garage. That's what it said. So it's still an instruction, like get her fucking DNA in there somewhere, bitch, you know, somewhat good at it. [01:20:01] Definitely how it reads. That's what I'm saying. So like, and she straight up admitted in court that the lab that she works for would have required her to label the DNA results, inconclusive, but they made an exceptions this time. She claims that she reported it, but she didn't disclose that her lab has never made an exception before [01:20:23] Brian: [01:20:23] just happens to be the one and only time. [01:20:25] She [01:20:25] Kari: [01:20:25] also testified that the magic bullet and none of the other evidence she tested from November of 2005 until March of 2006, had placed Teresa Halbach anywhere on Steven Avery's property. [01:20:45] Why did they find him guilty? I don't get it. I actually, I do, but I hate it because all they would have hated me if I'd been on that jury, who, boy, we've talked about this before on other cases, but I think we're both people who would be very quickly hated in the jury room because you show me proof. You show me proof for it's not guilty period. [01:21:12] Even if the person is actually guilty, you show me fucking proof because I'm not going to throw someone's life away on suspicion and innuendo and potentially staged and set up evidence. I'm not going to do it. Period. You show me actual, tangible proof. The second they said there was no blood and no DNA in Steven's house or Steven's garage or anywhere else on that property after. [01:21:37] Out, you know, laying this horrific story out for all to hear and see, and still maintaining that story in court. You don't show me fucking proof of that. Nope. Not happening. And now that non unanimous jury verdicts are no longer allowed. Yeah. [01:21:57] Brian: [01:21:57] Yeah. That changes [01:21:57] Kari: [01:21:57] the game. I mean, it was only allowed in two states anymore and Wisconsin was not one of them, but yeah, it w you show me proof, dammit, like I'm not throwing, I don't care how egregious the crime was or in this case, allegedly was, I mean, we know she ended up in a burn pit burn pit behind part of her. [01:22:19] We know part of her ended up in a burn pit behind Steven's house, but that's all we know. We have no idea how she got there. We have no idea how she was killed and we still to this day have absolutely no idea who did it, [01:22:32] Brian: [01:22:32] where the rest of the bone fragments. [01:22:36] Kari: [01:22:36] They've never been found and they alleged, she, that he burned her body in that pit behind his house. [01:22:44] Well, if that's the case, then where are like the other 40 plus percent of the bones that are missing, if he burned her body inside that pit, why are the bones, why are there any bones missing? Why were their bones found in a burn barrel on Barb's property? That's huh? Yeah, we'll get to that. When I get to my theory and which also happens to fall mostly in line with Kathleen Zellner theory. [01:23:13] So it works, but I had it before she vocalized it. So I claim it as my own. I was so excited when I realized that her theory fell in line with mine. When I watched the second season that I was literally like, kind of bouncing on the couch, cause I'm like, oh my God, I think like a lawyer. Oh my God. I was really excited anyway, because she was telling her version of the story. [01:23:35] Of what she thinks happened. And it was completely in line with what I've been saying for like two years at that point. So, uh, yeah, but anyway, there's just so much that makes zero sense. And honestly, the trial itself doesn't even matter as much as how it ended up and it ended up guilty. [01:23:56] Brian: [01:23:56] Yeah. I think the more the story is in the, before the trial and what's been found out after the trial, the trials [01:24:03] Kari: [01:24:03] just kind of, the show is important, but my, I think the reason I don't want to go into too much detail is because a, it would take episodes and episodes and episodes to cover the whole thing. [01:24:14] And B there's a million places you can already see that stuff. And so there's really no point in me sitting here rehashing every single little detail, it would just bore the crap out of everyone. And honestly, it would bore me because. You know, especially if you're someone who's watched the documentary, you already know this stuff or at least most of it. [01:24:30] So yeah, it's just the, ultimately the point is he was found guilty and he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, [01:24:41] Brian: [01:24:41] lock them up and throw [01:24:42] Kari: [01:24:42] away the key. Yeah, exactly. And so unfortunately this will lead us to Brendan's trial and on that one, I'm going to go into a lot more detail because it's, so if you thought Steven's trial was fucked up, just wait until you hear about Brendan's trial because it gets even worse. [01:25:07] So how, I don't know how that's possible, but it does. So, um, do you remember when, how much I hated doing the Brendan centric episode with the, the, uh, statement, the interrogation and stuff? Oh yeah. Okay. So the trial is real similar. In the kind of emotions it brings up. Yeah. Remember Michael Kelly, the private investigator. [01:25:37] Oh yeah. Just wait until you hear all about how he cried on the stand. Like the big fucking crazy baby that he is, but was it, was it because he felt bad for Brendan? Oh fuck. No, I keep thinking about the blue ribbon on the tree. I'm serious. You're the face we'll get there in the next episode. Thank you so much for listening. [01:26:06] You guys. Thanks for hanging in there with us. I apologize again for the long breaks, but this is just something you're going to have to deal with. And if you can't deal with it, I completely understand. Um, and it's been nice having you as a listener if you choose to, to vacate because of it. But, um, for those of you who are willing to stick around and understand that, you know, Uh, the life of a chronic illness warrior can be incredibly complicated. [01:26:29] And the life of someone who works like 70 hours a week can also be complicated. So I'm talking about you, babe. Um, so I, we just appreciate you hanging in there, so we will see you next time when we talk about Brendan's trial. And then I think we'll have one more episode after that to kind of wrap the whole thing up and go over the most recent stuff, updates and whatnot. [01:26:56] And then, um, we can move on to new cases, which I'm super excited about. So again, if you have any case suggestions, um, please look in the show notes. Uh, they have how all the different ways you can contact us and support the podcast. You know, we do accept donations via PayPal. We haven't set up a Patrion yet. [01:27:13] I do want to eventually, but I wouldn't know what to offer people in exchange for that. So. I got to do some more thinking on that. So for now, if you feel like, uh, monetarily supporting, you can do that through the paypal.me link. There's also just sharing, share, share, share. If you like what we do, if you're getting any value out of what we do, if you appreciate our opinions at all, then please just share, share, share. [01:27:44] That's really honestly, the best thing you can do, [01:27:46] Brian: [01:27:46] you can also, uh, feel free to leave a review on your favorite podcasting platform. [01:27:52] Kari: [01:27:52] Yes, please. That would be nice to reviews are very helpful and I will accept negative reviews too. Okay. Like as long as they are constructive criticism, I'll accept them all day long because I want to please, you guys that's. [01:28:05] I mean, obviously I want to talk about what I want to talk about, but I want to please you guys too. So if you think there's something I could do differently or whatever, just let me know, but just be nice about it, please, please. And thank you. [01:28:18] Brian: [01:28:18] So on the negative review thing, if you do have a comment or criticism that would lead to a negative review, maybe before leaving the negative review, send us an email and let us have a chance to address it first. [01:28:29] And if we fail to adequately address it then [01:28:33] Kari: [01:28:33] yeah. I mean, that would be nice. Like before you give us two thumbs down in a sad face, like I'd like to have a chance to rectify it with you in some way. Yeah. That's my only thing. For some reason we can't then that's fine. But, um, my point is I'm totally down for constructive criticism. [01:28:49] It's just the like. Hate and, and, and anger that I don't like, like, there's no reason to be mad at me. I'm just relaying information. And if you're a Gilder and you're mad at me, do me a favor, go away. I don't want you here. Like, if you are going to be mean to me, because you're a guilt or you don't need to be here and I will delete your comments and I will block you from any platform I can block you from. [01:29:15] So. Just don't, it's not worth it. It's not worth your time. It's not worth my time if you want to listen. Cool. If you don't cool again, if I'm totally blatantly wrong about something, please correct me because yeah, please. Correct us and point to the source. Yeah. Give me sources though. If I'm totally annoying you, then that's fine too. [01:29:35] Just don't listen. No, one's putting a gun to your head and telling you to listen to this podcast. So if you enjoy it, if you like us, if you think I'm sorta kind of funny, sometimes please give us a thumbs up. Please give us a decent review and please share with your friends because that's honestly the best ways you can support us right now. [01:29:55] And again, if you want to monitor monetarily support us, that would be amazing as well. Not necessary at all. Please feel no obligation to give us money. It just means that we would have more time and resources to put into the podcast itself to continue making. Good quality entertainment for you. So anyway, guys, thanks so much. [01:30:16] We really appreciate it. We will catch you next time with Brendan's trial and I hope you're having a great day or night wherever you are. Thanks for listening. Bye [01:30:25] Brian: [01:30:25] bye. [01:30:27] Ultimately, the system works [01:30:33] consequences.