Nikki Johnson:
Go for it. Risk the failure, do something different because different stands out. And in our business, even a little bit of different, just a dash of different, sets you apart.

Evan Facinger:
Welcome, everybody to the Foremost Media Marketing Chat Podcast. We're excited to talk today. You've got Jon Ballard and Evan Facinger, here from Foremost Media and we've also got Nikki Johnson as well with us.

Jon Ballard:
I am super excited about having Nikki on. Nikki and I basically grew up in this industry together. I mean, we've both been at it 25 plus years. Nikki is the director of marketing over at Domino, North America. Great company, we've done quite a bit of work with them and continue to be a great partner of ours. They're in the coding, marketing and labeling industry and Nikki is a real veteran in this industry, the coding and marketing. She's on the board for a Contract Packaging Association. She's been a longtime member of PMMI and all the companies she's been with. And she's also on the trade show committee. And she just has a wealth of information about marketing and she's one of the most honestly and most creative marketers I've ever met. We've done some really cool stuff together over the years and I just love working with her. So welcome, Nikki. It's great to have you.

Nikki Johnson:
Well, goodness. Thank you, Jon. And the feeling is quite mutual. Thanks for having me on guys.

Jon Ballard:
So I got to back up. I don't know, this is going back old school, Nikki. I think one of the first projects we ever did was we wanted to come up with something really unique for PACK EXPO. Remember this, where I'm going with this?

Nikki Johnson:
Well, there you could be referring to a couple of different things.

Jon Ballard:
The one that really sticks out in my mind is there was this game called Guitar Hero, and we wanted to capitalize on that. Can you tell us a little bit about how you came up with this idea and what we did?

Nikki Johnson:
Yeah, boy, that is a blast from the past. I want to say that our theme was, well, let me back up. At the time I was with FoxJet, and our theme was, I think FoxJet Rocks or something along those lines. The organization sold through distribution, so it was kind of less about us and more about our distribution channel partners and how awesome they were serving their local territories around the globe. So we put together something that we thought would be a standout and a heck of a lot of fun. And I think if memory serves me, we did some fun things in the booth with the actual game.
But even as a pre-show and probably post-show, activity was another game that it was something you guys created for us digitally. It was an online game and I seem to recall it was how fast you could fill the box or code the box or something along those lines. And I think it was the same year, but I could have that wrong. Like I said, we've done a lot of really cool things over the years with Foremost and I think I'm referring to the one that you have in mind.

Jon Ballard:
Yeah, it was that. From what I remember, it was like a game where you coded to music, kind of like Guitar Hero.

Nikki Johnson:
Yep, that's exactly what it was. And boy, we did get a lot of engagement around that and I'm trying to think of what year that was Jon, but it was quite a long time ago and something that was very unique back in the day. Because things are usually pretty mundane in our space, meaning there's just a lot of feeds and speeds and specifications and not a whole lot of fun. So I remember that one being quite the attention getter.

Jon Ballard:
I was thinking, I hope Nikki doesn't get fired, this is not really this industry. We had concert t-shirts and all sorts of crazy stuff going on in the booth and it was amazing. I mean, you guys had people packed in there, all show along, and from what I remember was really successful. So that was one of my first favorite projects with Nikki. But anyway, I'm going way off script here.

Evan Facinger:
Well, the good news is we don't really have a script, so I guess, that works out anyway.

Jon Ballard:
I was going to say, it really does speak to how creative Nikki is, and we've done a lot of weird and crazy and fun, exciting things like this. And some of have been really successful and some have just been kind of flat. But the most part, she's got a great marketing mind and comes up with some amazing ideas. So it's been a pleasure to work with you over the years, and thanks for being on.

Nikki Johnson:
Thanks.

Evan Facinger:
So I'm curious then, Nikki, in regards to just marketing at a manufacturing company in general. You mentioned that the industry, got a lot of specifications, got a lot of fun, guitar hero type of marketing campaigns that are going on. What do you wish everyone understood about being a marketer at an industry like yours?

Nikki Johnson:
I think it boils down to the fact that we're still selling and marketing to individuals. I think it's easy to understand that in a B2C environment. In B2B, I think traditionally, it's just viewed as something that's got to be kind of clinical or technical, lacking personality. And I think it's a real miss to be honest, because we're still selling one-to-one. We still have buyers who have to make an emotional connection. And I know it sounds crazy because we're selling machines that do a job. But at the end of the day, the person who buys the equipment needs to have a comfort level that this thing is going to make me look good, this machine is going to make my job easier. It really does come down to the needs of the individual, in combination with the needs of the project or the application or the objectives from an operation standpoint. But at the end of the day, we're selling to people and that's my approach. I try to add an element of personalization, that human side to just about everything we do on the marketing side.

Evan Facinger:
And I think that definitely shows with some of the different campaigns that you've done over the years. And you've got a ton of experience. I know that you've been doing this for, is it over 20 years? So have you noticed any, I guess, what is the biggest change that you've seen in the industry in your career?

Nikki Johnson:
I'd say the most significant shift that's notable recently is the change in the buyer. Traditionally, we've had, I guess your stereotypical engineer as our buyer, and along with that comes a lot of history and expectations of what it is they're looking like, what messages resonate with them. And for a long time, I think everybody was afraid to move outside of that box. So now, the shift is a generational shift. So we've got millennials that are now in the engineering seat, that are making the decisions. And to be honest, the way they buy is night and day different than the previous generation. So I think companies like Domino and others that I've worked for are forced to market differently, because we've got a whole new group of buyers that is just completely different. So I would say that's probably the biggest change from a market perspective is the buyer.

Evan Facinger:
So with the buyer changing so much, what do you think that you need to start doing in the industry to start capitalizing on that shift?

Nikki Johnson:
So a couple of things, and the first one I would say isn't necessarily a huge change as it relates to this new buyer, but millennials clearly are efficient at researching on the web. They're able to dig in and understand digital content and information maybe in a different way than our previous buyer to a point. I would also say, and these are things that I guess maybe are conclusions that I've come up with, and I have no science to back it up, but it's just my, I guess, crystal ball talking. But the other element that goes along with this sort of research ability and how they navigate technical information, they also value partnerships, and I don't know if partnership is the right word, but they value finding expertise with the people around them.
And I kind of relate it to this sort of gig economy and their comfort level of farming things out. "Well, I don't know how to do that, but I got a guy that I think I could engage with who's an expert here." So I think the millennial generation, our current buyer is prone to seeking out experts and people who can help them. The third thing that I would say is important, is it seems that this new buyer has a sense of caring in that, they want to know that the company that they're working with has similar values. And again, I think it's very foreign to what we've known historically. I think buyers want to know what is our position on sustainability? How do our solutions help them be more sustainable? They're all sorts of elements of SR, if you will, that are important to these types of buyers now. So, big change.

Evan Facinger:
Well, and do you think that those last two are related somewhat too? Because if you have that network effect where you're looking at building logic network, you have people and experts that you trust and you like the gig economy side of things that you mentioned, where you feel comfortable sending certain work to certain people based on knowing them, based on trusting them and their expertise. Also, the same thing with the companies. You want to find that company to work with that you trust because they're doing good, they have that sustainability and those two things kind of work together.

Nikki Johnson:
100%, absolutely. I think this idea of working with partners and companies with shared value systems is at the top of the list. And this is a lesson or something that I think everybody sort of navigates to, even if they don't do it purposefully. And a prime example of that is me working with Foremost, to be real honest. Immediately, I felt that Jon and I were consistently on the same page with our ideas, our position. And that made things very easy. The difference, I think today, 20 some odd years later is that discussion is open and it's more of "tell me about your value system." Instead of it just sort of coming to life and learning of it. It's a discussion upfront, I want to know about your organization, tell me about your people, tell me about your position on this, this, or this. It's a thing, and very different.

Jon Ballard:
I can say, I think one of the things I've noticed too, back to your earlier point, is a lot of times people want to do all that research and watch the videos and they're almost at the buying point when they reach out to you now with video and content being king on search engines. So we've really seen that change over the years. It used to be that people just didn't want to put anything out there because they were afraid their competitors would see how their equipment worked. And now, I think you've got to have all that out there because like you said, Nikki, millennials want to do all that preresearch, and then, they want to get into, okay, this product will work, but who's behind it?

Nikki Johnson:
You're 100% right, Jon. And as a matter of fact, my team is just been recently working towards an understanding activity that's more at the bottom of the marketing funnel, almost touching sales. A lot of business development, detective work, really seeking out those opportunities that are ready to pop and serving up that decision enabling content right at the right time. That's really where we're trying to improve and really understand. And that's where technology comes into play, because we can identify certain behaviors and triggers as it relates to engagement with our content. And it's about building out that pattern and understanding, oh, now is the time when this buyer is about ready to make a decision. And this work is hard and it's different, but it is something that we've absolutely got our eye on and want to get more efficient at.

Evan Facinger:
Yeah, I think sales has always been timing and now, there's a lot of software to help with that, especially with everybody leaving their digital footprint as they start to do their research and everything else. Are you using any sort of, I guess, what's your tech stack look like for compiling that information and making sure that you understand the intents and where somebody's at in the stage of the buying cycle?

Nikki Johnson:
I probably am going to be, I guess, probably a little bit less thorough than I should be to give you a list of all the tools. But I'd say one of the things that points directly to what I talked about in this idea of understanding the engagement and how people are reacting with our content is something called Ringside. So Domino, our global headquarters is in the UK and the group usually is able to provide us with a lot of the tools that we deploy throughout the globe. And Ringside is one of them, and it's something that we've got a lot of learning to do around, but again, critical to this activity that I mentioned just a bit earlier. And then, of course, we use the tools that are associated with Salesforce, including Pardot. And then your typical suspects that give us the analytics that have been tried and true as a part of Google and those things. So we are blessed with a lot of tools in our arsenal. The work now is around using them all in the right way to meet our objectives.

Jon Ballard:
Nikki kind of nailed it. There's so many great tools out there. The hard part is figuring out how to use them and how to get them to work together and how to get the timing down and engage with customers at the right time.

Nikki Johnson:
Yes, it's key. And that's exactly where we're headed. So it's exciting. It's something new to work on, and that's what I love about this business.

Evan Facinger:
And would you say that's the biggest challenge that you see facing the industry as a whole from a marketing perspective in the next five years?

Nikki Johnson:
From a marketing perspective, certainly. And almost including what I've said before about this change in the buyer, but even I guess, maybe a bigger obstacle is related to the way technology is and how fast it moves. So years ago, it wouldn't be unheard of that you had a state-of-the-art product that truly was head and shoulders above a competitor and you had I guess, that position for a clip of time and you could ride that horse. Now, that is absolutely not the case. So the challenge is differentiation, it's how do I stand out amongst a sea of competitors? They truly have products that are as good as the products that we offer. I really feel like that is the bigger challenge because again, the days of having something just super whizz bang for a long time, it just doesn't really happen that much anymore. In our world, there are a lot of providers that make quality and reliable equipment.
So how do we position ourselves differently? And again, I go back to what we started talking about, and that's that human element. It's not really about the product, it's about how we sell the product. It's about how we service the product and all of those commercial programs that we build out. Our goal is how do we take better care of the customers and keep them coming back and seeing the value in the programs that we're offering. Again, less about the product. So I'd say that's the biggest challenge is just trying to stand out from the rest of the really good manufacturers out there.

Evan Facinger:
Yeah, no, I totally see that, because there's that influx of being able to find a lot of the, I don't want to say similar because there's always going to be differences and reasons to choose one versus the other. But a lot of times as everything gets built out, as competition increases, those lines start to blur, especially when their go to marketing strategy is simply specifics. Like you were mentioned, that they're not talking about any of their personal side of things.

Nikki Johnson:
Right. I mean, a lot of folks are still stuck in this mode where, let's take print ads for instance, those are still a thing. And I believe it, we participate in print advertising. But there are a lot of manufacturers who still will, they'll put a picture of their big piece of metal as the center attention getting item, where I sort of disagree with that. Nobody really wants to see another hunk of metal that goes faster or does this better. Talking about speeds and feeds and specs and that very industrial imagery is just in my mind, passé. And I just like to take a different approach.

Evan Facinger:
Well so, who do you think's doing a great job with their marketing right now from the industrial side of things?

Nikki Johnson:
Oh man, that's a really hard question.

Jon Ballard:
Yeah, I think Domino is one of the best marketing companies out there, to be honest. And you have been for a while. You guys are all well ahead of the competition and willing to try new things.

Nikki Johnson:
There's always room for improvement, Jon. And here's the challenge, I may be willing to take a risk and do things differently. But to be honest, it doesn't resonate sometimes with our more traditional buyers or any of our buyers for that matter. I mean, it's kind of a hit or miss thing. So while I see it one way, our buyers have to be willing to accept that risk that we're taking and relate to the messaging and the imagery that we might use. So it's a balance and can be challenging.

Jon Ballard:
Yeah. Is there a marketing failure that's taught you the most?

Nikki Johnson:
Ooh, that's another really good question. One would be proof, proof and proof again, only because especially, well, of course, with print or a press release, you can't take it back. So I am a bit of a stickler for details. And there are little things that sometimes you miss and it's happened to me over the years. It's happened to everybody, I'm certain over the years. But having a second or third pair of eyes go through something that cannot be taken back is absolutely critical. So I guess, I'm pointing to a few failures over the years with that comment. And the other I would say is attempting to make everybody happy. Marketing, even in the B2B space or the manufacturing space is emotional, like I mentioned before. So many times everybody feels like they're a marketer because they have an emotional response to a campaign or messaging.
And so, as such, people have an opinion, "Oh, it should be this way or it should be that way." And it is absolutely impossible to make an entire team happy. And at some point, you just simply have to draw a line and say "This is how we're moving forward." And I would say, even for myself, let's say I've produced a piece of content, finished, happy with it. And a week later, I'll read it and say, "Oh, shoot, I wish I would've stated this." Or it should have maybe been a little bit more of that. It's a constant battle, but at some point a decision's just got to be made and you move forward.

Evan Facinger:
Well, I know that no matter how many emails that we send, I've sent personally through some email marketing tools, every time I hit the send or schedule or whatever it is, I feel like I could feel my heart skip a few beats just hoping that there aren't any typos. No matter how many times it's been proof by however many people. It's just something I don't think I'll ever grow out of.

Nikki Johnson:
Yeah. And ironically, it's become more, I guess, accepted over the years because of texting and the very casual way communication is done these days. So I guess, it's a little bit less of a thing than it was years back. But for me personally, that's kind of a big deal.

Evan Facinger:
Yeah. No, for sure. And so, failure wise, you've got that. What about the success? Is it the Guitar Hero that Jon was mentioning before? Is there something else that you're real proud of?

Nikki Johnson:
Yeah, I would say my answer would include the Guitar Hero, which was kind of a novelty. I would say my general answer is taking the risk, go for it and risk the failure and just do something different because different stands out. And in our business, I would say even a little bit of different, just a dash of different sets you apart. And so, I always try to take that approach to just do the unexpected.

Evan Facinger:
And I think, you have to stand out. Everybody's starting to see the content marketing side of things. I shouldn't say everybody, but we're starting to see this influx of content. And when there's always that influx of content out there, it all starts to look the same. So I think if you don't have something or an opinion or a reason to write about it, something that makes you unique and stand out, it's easy to become one of the masses from it, which does more to hurt you, I think, sometimes than not even having the content in the first place.

Nikki Johnson:
Mhm, right.

Evan Facinger:
So are there certain channels that you're focusing on most right now?

Nikki Johnson:
Well, I must say it's trade show because we have our largest annual trade show coming up here in less than 60 days, which is PACK EXPO International. The show hasn't taken place since 2018, so we expect this to be a big one. It's a huge investment for us. We are really focused on that right now. And of course, along with that, Evan, are the digital elements, the pre-show promotion. I mean, I would say that's the driver, but we're using all of our tools and methods to promote that show.

Evan Facinger:
Yeah. And you said you're expecting it to be a big one after the pause?

Nikki Johnson:
Yes, absolutely. It may even be the largest PACK EXPO yet. It remains to be seen, but it sure is trending very nicely.

Jon Ballard:
One of the things I learned a lot about trade show marketing with Nikki is the importance of pre-show marketing and scheduling to get people to the booth and then, marketing to them while they're at the show and then following up. And Nikki is a master at these, all of this. And I think trade shows can still be a great driver of traffic if you're willing to put in the work. I think a lot of people just go to the show, show up and hope they get leads and maybe follow up with the leads. But Nikki's always been really aggressive at trying to figure out how to schedule appointments while at the show and drive engagement there.

Nikki Johnson:
Yeah, and to be real honest, my objective is to create something memorable for a prospect or a customer. So when they're walking through this huge show, they remember being in our booth, that they did something, they had a conversation. There was something that was fun or a takeaway that they went back and told their team about. That's really my goal when it comes to trade show. And we were kind of joking about the Guitar Hero, but that achieves that. And there've been a number of things that we've done over the years that did just that. And it's just always the goal with me.

Evan Facinger:
Are there any good marketing related resources that you're currently getting your information from, is how you're staying up to date with new marketing trends?

Nikki Johnson:
This is going to be an interesting answer, but I would say I leave it to my late night or early morning hair-brained ideas that I come up with myself and then, I go out to validate them. And I usually will use my good partners to help me understand, "Hey, I've got this idea, does it have legs?" And I would bet that over the years that I have engaged Jon and Foremost in this fashion, I don't know, dozens of times. So I think I do read quite a bit and I take it in, but sadly, it's usually information that I already am aware of. And so, I always think of, okay, yes, these are the basic things. How do I take it to the next level? And that's where these sort of hair-brained ideas come up with and some of them actually take off. So again, taking those ideas, validating them with experts in that particular methodology and deciding how to move forward with it or if I should move forward with it.

Evan Facinger:
Any favorite ideas that stick out that you never got buy-in for? Just somebody told you it was too crazy, or couldn't be done?

Nikki Johnson:
Well, one thing that we've wanted to do, even for this show, was use augmented reality to create an experience. We just couldn't get our arms around it, to understand how to position it and how to make it something super cool. So I've put it on the back burner until we can get that figured out, and maybe we could do it for an upcoming show in the coming years.

Evan Facinger:
Well, especially as the technology evolves with that as well, and you start to be able to do more, it starts to get easier. And you're seeing a lot of that take shape with even the way that some of the cameras work on the phones now has even made a big impact there.

Nikki Johnson:
So I'd say that once I've got my mind set on something and it's pretty solid, I usually can get buy-in, because I get passionate about it and find a way to make it happen. So I can't recall a time where I've been told no.

Evan Facinger:
Well, that's good. Any commonly held, I guess, marketing belief that you just don't agree with something everybody in the industry is doing that you think is flat out wrong?

Nikki Johnson:
What comes to mind, especially again, in our industry that usually focuses on features and speeds and feeds and specifications, I would say the sort of myth that I don't agree with is that you have to be crystal clear in your message. In other words, it's got to be very clinical and specific. I think the better way is to maybe leave something up to the imagination. Respect the intelligence of the person who is consuming your content to pick up what you're putting down. You can present content that maybe is more clever than it is clear and get a better response or a better engagement.

Evan Facinger:
Well, and you would know because you've got the results to back it up, right?

Nikki Johnson:
Well, not always, but we try it.

Evan Facinger:
Well, that's part of marketing, you got to keep trying sometimes. I mean, I think we've all had ideas that we thought for sure would work, looked great on paper, but then, especially if you're testing it, the one that you didn't expect to do the best, that ends up doing better than the others.

Nikki Johnson:
Yeah.

Jon Ballard:
I think one thing that Nikki and I have done over the years too was we're sounding boards for each other. When one of us has a crazy idea, we'll call the other and be like, "Hey, what do you think of this idea?" And sometimes the other person will talk us out of it, or sometimes they'll be like, that's great, let's explore this. But you've ever thought of this. And I think in marketing, you need people around you like that, like a Nikki Johnson or Evan Facinger for that matter. I mean, that are just creative and you can just bounce ideas off of, and I've appreciated that with Nikki over the years.

Nikki Johnson:
Yeah, I agree. It's super important. And the magic, Jon, and this has happened between the two of us, is that you take an idea to somebody that you can use as a sounding board and then, they take it to the next level and make it even better. And I think it's that collaboration that's just really key and is at the root of all of my successful projects. Even within my own team, the teams that I've worked on and then outside resources like yourself.

Evan Facinger:
Well, it's been great chatting with you. You've got a ton of great insights. Any parting information that you'd want to leave us and anybody listening with?

Nikki Johnson:
Boy, I'm really admirable and passionate about folks entering our industry young. The generation entering the workforce is an absolute wealth of knowledge. And I guess, my advice for other manufacturers out there is to listen to those individuals because they truly have the key, I think, to where we need to go and how we need to present ourselves. Again, you mentioned 25 plus years in the industry. I will never say that I know everything because not even close. As the years go by, I need more and more talented people to enter my circle, to help me. And I have found that those folks of the age coming into the workforce and into the industry are really helpful.

Evan Facinger:
Well, and they'll eventually be the buyers too. So the more you can learn from everybody entering the industry, the better off you'll be long term.

Nikki Johnson:
Yeah, absolutely.

Evan Facinger:
Well, thanks again, Nikki. As always, pleasure talking with you and I'm sure we'll be talking soon.

Nikki Johnson:
Yeah, the pleasure was all mine, guys. Happy to spend the time with you.

Jon Ballard:
Thanks, Nikki.

Zach Baierl:
Thanks for listening to the Foremost Media Marketing Chat Podcast. If you want to stay on top of your marketing game, make sure to like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more episodes, show transcripts and marketing insights, go to foremostmedia.com.