Shane Derby (00:02.063)
Leo Barber, Kia Ora, you're very welcome to the Firm and Fast Golf podcast.

Leo (00:30.382)
Shane, thank you very much and I feel very privileged to be asked to contribute on this from the other side of the world.

Shane Derby (00:37.647)
Mate, it's always a pleasure to catch up with some Antipodean golf tragics, be they Australian or New Zealanders. I have a soft spot for both lands. So the first question I have for you is how is all on the Kapiti coast on the North Island of New Zealand?

Leo (00:56.75)
Fantastic way towards the back end of summer and we've actually enjoyed a really good summer which has been well received because and I understand I think Europe's probably getting that at the moment is we've had two years of really wet conditions which have been really really challenging from a green keeping point of view I guess from a lifestyle point of view we've had some terrible floods down here so it's been really challenging so I think everyone's fully enjoyed having a good summer.

Shane Derby (01:23.791)
Yeah, we are the green keeping fraternity in these parts are pulling their bloody hair out of the moment with the amount of rain. I'm sure you've seen some of the pictures on Twitter. And I mean, I'm lucky in that I'm a member of a Lynx Golf Course, no more and less than you're working on one at the moment. But it just I mean, I guess having just a question, what how I guess the when you have dealt you use.

deluges of rain. How does the grass sward deal with that?

Leo (02:00.75)
Okay, so I never imagined in my wildest dreams being on a sand -based links golf course that I'd ever have to worry about drainage. But the volume of rain we had meant that the water table rose to such a state where we had ponding that we couldn't drain it anywhere. So yeah, that's really difficult when it's coming up from beneath. We're at a very lowest point. We're probably only two and a half, three meters above sea level.

And it was that two and a half to three and a half meter zones, you know, those little hollows around the place that just filled up and we couldn't do anything. We'd pump it from one side of the fairway to the other and then it would just kind of seep back through underneath. It was like pumping a bathtub, but the bathtub was the size of the Capiticoast. So it was really challenging.

Shane Derby (02:50.159)
Yeah, it's funny. I was chatting to a mate in Holland during the week and he's a member in Nordwijk, which is one of the three or four links golf courses on the, on North sea coast of Holland. And so high is the water table there. And just as an aside, the, the water authority in, in Holland essentially use the Nordwijk dunes as a source of water for Amsterdam, the greater Amsterdam area.

And they've had so much rain and the water table is so high that they just have ponding and puddles everywhere, which has never happened before. So that just gives you some indication of the deluge that the Green Staff sort of continent wide have had to deal with over here. It's just been horrendous.

Leo (03:37.198)
Yeah, and I would see those images from a distance and I would actually use that to communicate to my membership to say, hey, this is not just us. This is not just a Capiti Coast problem. The North Island of New Zealand had it. And then I had images, I mean, I think Canusti 18 months ago was kind of underwater. The old course has been underwater. It's not just a Paraparama Beach problem. So that was actually...

in some ways helpful, but in other ways, you know, sympathetic to their cause as well, because I mean, that's what we were going through.

Shane Derby (04:11.951)
Yeah, yeah. Oh, to be a greenkeeper. But we'll get on to we'll get on to how you got down that particular road soon enough. Listen, the inspiration for today today's episode is twofold. As as I shared with you during the week, my brother lived in Wellington for six years or so from 2007 onwards. And over that period, I was fortunate to visit New Zealand on holidays and have a number of opportunities to drive north from Wellington along State Highway 1.

to the golfing oasis that is Paraparam. More recently, I was interested to see that you delivered a member presentation celebrating 75 years since the great Alec Russell's arrival on the Capady Coast. And here you are to share some insights on the course, Mr. Russell, and indeed your enduring journey through golf. Before we get cracking into the PBGC Arcos and the story,

We're gonna linger a little on your journey thus far, if that's okay with you.

Leo (05:12.27)
So I look forward to sharing it.

Shane Derby (05:13.653)
Excellent. Well, you're a local boy, I believe just from down the road, interested to understand how you got into golf and then we'll get on to how you got into greenkeeping.

Leo (05:24.238)
Well, I guess kind of one led to the other. I grew up in a very sport -based family. How did I get into golf? I've been thinking a little bit about this. My dad played golf, but he was more a rugby player and golf was just something. And this probably, like a lot of us down in New Zealand, golf was just something to get you from one rugby season to the next. So, then he started having a family and things like that in the golf clubs.

went to the side of the garage until a couple of my older brothers got to an age where they were interested in what were these strange set of sticks lying on the side of the garage. And we grew up on, we grew up on property. So dad had 16 acres, well, mum and dad had 16 acres out the back. So, you know, the brothers went out and started swinging the clubs and I kind of, you know, followed them out and got interested as well. And then...

They started playing golf and I started getting excited by the fact that they were playing golf. And this is a real golf thing, isn't it? When they come home and they've broken 100 for the first time or they've got their first handicap or, you know, that would kind of excite me to, you know, the buzz that would be around the house when they'd walk in and tell mum and dad that they broke 100, then they broke 90. And so, you know, I'd go along and I'd catty. So that's how I got interested, I guess, in golf. And eventually they would let me have, you know, a shot and it might be on a par three. And then I...

I might be able to play a par four, then I play a couple of holes and then eventually I was playing with my brothers and my dad. So that's how the golf side of it came about.

Shane Derby (06:55.759)
So started off as a little dose of FOMO.

Leo (07:00.302)
I think so. I think so. And yeah, I mean, that's the wonderful thing about golf, isn't it? There's lots of kind of bragging points and little milestones to celebrate. And I don't know, no one celebrates golf alone. Everyone's pretty keen to kind of, you know, tell their story.

Shane Derby (07:15.087)
And like quite, quite literally you're, you're a stone's throw from Pukkara Bay where we were brought up to, to Paraparam. And, uh, I guess it will be remiss of me not to mention a few famous neighbors in Stevie Williams, obviously Tiger's ex -caddie who too hails from Pukkara Bay. And I believe you, you said you mentioned to me during the week that he was, uh, he worked in the butcher shop, uh, in, uh, in Parapara, Paraparamu. Um, I'm also going to mention Chris, the great Christian Cullen.

Leo (07:22.284)
Yeah.

Shane Derby (07:43.951)
former All Blacks rugby player. The Pike Kekareke Express, I believe is his nickname. That's just because I like saying Pike Kekareke. Both gentlemen, I believe are long standing members of Power Pro.

Leo (07:57.326)
Yeah, correct. And interesting you, you mentioned Christian Kala because, and this is probably a very New Zealand thing, you know, small country. But I played under 10s rugby with him and he was a hooker. I mean, he's, he developed into the world's greatest fullback. And I almost joke, I love to think that I had a little part to play in that, but he was a hooker. He's two years younger than me. Like I said, Paikokariki, which is a small kind of railway, well, it used to be like a railway town. A lot of, you know, workers off the railway, including his father and.

you know, as things electrified and all the rest of it, I guess the town kind of withered a bit and so did their rugby team. So about six of them came down to my rugby team, which was 15 minutes south and joined up and he came down with his brother and Shane Cullen, like if we scored a hundred tries for the season, it was Shane Cullen that scored like 90 of those tries. I mean, he was a superstar. He was the first five and I thought Shane would be the all black and Christian was just...

His younger brother and his old man tucked him into the Ford pack just to keep him out of trouble. And he was hooker. So I was, I was his prop. I stuck his, stuck my arm around him every, every week and packing the scrum down. So yeah, it's been real nice to, you know, to, you know, obviously see in later years as we drifted back away to see what he's done on the rugby field and then, you know, to turn up at Paraparabi beach and him coming home from Munster.

He's a member of our club. So yeah, that's Christian Carlin and Steve Williams. I mean, this is Pukarupai. It's like a, you've obviously probably driven through it, but it's 500 houses. Steve Williams lived on the other side. He's a little bit older than me. So I didn't know him growing up, but soon knew of him. And the other one is Peter Jackson. So Peter Jackson, Lord of the Rings, the big director. He lived in Pukarupai as well. So small town.

New Zealand. Some guys went on to make it on the world stage.

Shane Derby (09:56.815)
Yeah, no, for, for, for listeners that don't know what we're talking about. So for North American listeners, particularly the first five eight is essentially the quarterback in rugby. Uh, obviously he doesn't throw the ball. Uh, that's the hooker's job, but, uh, he, he directs traffic, generally speaking himself on the scrum half, but I will stick up a couple of links to, I guess, Christian Cullen's top 10 tries. The guy was an absolute and utter speedster and some of the tries he scored just are.

eye -poppingly good. Both.

Leo (10:29.55)
So he's scored 46 tries for the All Blacks. And I mean, you can sit down and watch those. Might take you about 15 minutes, but that is phenomenal. What made Christian Cullen so great is that he could change direction without losing pace. Phenomenal. I mean, it's hurt his knees today, but that was his incredible attribute.

Shane Derby (10:47.791)
Yeah, no, he, he, he, obviously he finished off his career towards the end of his career. Anyway, he played a couple of seasons in Ireland, little bit injury, little, little bit injury blighted with Munster. Um, we didn't quite see the best of him, but we saw enough of him to, to, to know the class of the man. And, uh, there'll always be a very special place in Irish rugby's heart for, for, for Mr. Cullen.

Leo (11:14.382)
Shane, he now plays golf three days a week, probably four days a week. I mean, he just absolutely loves it. And still as competitive on the golf course as he was on the rugby field.

Shane Derby (11:21.935)
I can well imagine the lucky bastard. Well, listen, this isn't the rugby pod, but as as as former players, it's always good to reminisce about the heroes and and and how and where they find themselves now. Listen, in terms of your green keeping. So FOMO, the brothers and the dad got you into the game. And I believe you started your.

Leo (11:30.862)
That's

Shane Derby (11:48.599)
golfing, green keeping apprenticeship at a place called Whitby Golf.

Leo (11:54.304)
Whidbey Golf Club, which was our local golf course, in some ways a little bit ahead of its time because it was actually part of a housing development. So the golf course was through the low -lying areas and the houses were built around the outside and assisted selling sections. But yeah, so I was lucky. I think back today and the golf industry, I mean, we struggle for apprentices these days. We struggle for probably like a lot of industries, but...

But you know, it's really hard to get kind of young, keen individuals to engage in our industry. But when I was coming through, I mean, there was huge competition. I mean, to get a golf, a green keeping apprenticeship was very, very difficult. And you know, I guess right place and right time and Whitby Golf Club, you know, I mean, it no longer exists today. They've actually put houses all over the top of it, which is really, really sad because I'd love to.

go back and have a look at Whippy today. I actually think it had a lot of architectural merit in its own kind of modest way. But it was a local club and I could stay at home and I could green keep 10 minutes down the road. So it was absolutely perfect for me. And I always had kind of a real interest in what made a good lawn good and a bad lawn poor and why was a golf green?

not like my front lawn and all that kind of stuff. So that was kind of the, I guess, the, you know, the grass side of things. And then on the other side, I mean, I loved golf and I loved land. And I don't know, the whole lot just kind of mashed together and it seemed to be like the perfect fit for me.

Shane Derby (13:37.775)
Active tramping then, so yeah.

Leo (13:41.934)
Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. Yeah, that's quite a good description.

Shane Derby (13:47.023)
Well, it's just as well for the for the benefit of of of listeners that don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe you might just explain what tramping is.

Leo (13:58.094)
Well, I guess the Americans would call it hiking. You know, it's getting out the hills, getting out in nature, getting away from all the, you know, getting away from life. It's brilliant. Listening to the sounds and the smells and taking the scenery. All your senses working.

Shane Derby (14:12.879)
and make what a place to go tramping or hiking or whatever. We won't get into the difference between jandals and flip flops or thongs for that matter. But anyway, there's a whole lexicon of Kiwi sayings and phrases. My Maori is pretty poor, but I do know Kiota and Halama 'i, but that's about it.

Leo (14:40.974)
Well, fantastic. That's a pretty strong start, Shane.

Shane Derby (14:41.071)
Well, it's a step in the right direction anyway. Listen, you appear to have been a man with a plan more or less. And I listened to your recent appearance on the Yardage Book podcast with the local Kiwi podcast, but you seem to have had a strategic plan more or less all the way along. So you didn't. Did you finish your apprenticeship in Whitby or?

Tell us, tell us how, how did you go on to, I believe Royal Melbourne was, was possibly the next stop. Am I correct in that chronology?

Leo (15:22.55)
Yeah, so in terms of the plan, I guess when I went into green keeping, green keeping wasn't considered a sexy occupation. I mean, you were a grass cutter. I mean, it was, I think it's growing a lot, excuse the pun, but I think it's growing a lot in subsequent years and turf and turf facilities and it's become, there's some really big profile around, whether it's looking after a sports ground or a cricket wicket or a, you know,

at Golf Course, it's hosting the PGA Tour or the DP World Tour. So it's got a lot more profile. But when I went into it, it was like, what, you're not going to university? Like, what's going on? So I kind of thought, hey, well, this is myself. I I quite, well, I like to think I'm kind of quite driven. And if I was going to go into Golf Course Greenkeeping, I wanted to be the best. I wanted to have a plan. I wanted to say, hey, look, Whitby's not my forever job.

I'm not going to be there when I'm 65. I guess I was on a small course, but I had big ambitions.

Leo (16:29.984)
what would I need to do next? And once I had my apprenticeship and I'd always had ambition to go work on a bigger course. And I remember as a youngster, reading Golf Digest magazine and Golf Magazine and those kinds of things and looking at these courses overseas and the tournaments and things like that. I thought I wanted to be part of that. And it just so happened about two years into my apprenticeship that the superintendent of Royal Melbourne, Jim Porter,

visited New Zealand and he was on a bit of a PR exercise, I think, for the Australian Superintendents Association. He was going around different associations. As a young fellow, I got to listen to him. I felt honestly inspired by the presentation that he gave and I made sure after his presentation that I went and sat down next to him and I introduced myself and said, hey, I'm going to come and work for you. Work for you one day, one day soon.

And he's like, he probably thinks he's never gonna hear me again. And, you know, he leaves jumps on a plane. Well, I jump on a plane a year later and head to Australia at the same time that he had actually sent a letter back, back to my house. And, you know, thanks, Leo, there's no positions available. So I landed in Australia. You know, he's my only kind of contact. And I kind of figured if,

If I wanted to be taken seriously, I needed to be there in person. I mean, in those days, we wrote letters and you kind of could imagine it's a week for a letter to get to Australia and a week for a letter to get back and all the rest of it. And anyway, I picked up the phone and rung him and he said, hey, what are you doing? He said, you wouldn't believe it, but I've just had an employee resign this morning, come down and let's have a chat. So, yeah.

Shane Derby (18:10.831)
That's amazing. I mean, just how serendipitous is that? I guess you make your own look.

Leo (18:18.574)
Yeah, I've thought about that and people have said since oh, well, that was really lucky. And I'm a big believer that you do make your own luck. And if I hadn't have put myself in a position where I went over and sat beside him and chewed his ear, and I say this to a lot of young guys, you know, stick the hand out, you never know where that handshake's gonna lead you to. If I hadn't have done that, when I picked up the phone and rang him, he wouldn't have know who I was and he probably wouldn't have invited me down to have the chat. And I may never have got the opportunities that I ended up getting at Royal Melbourne.

Shane Derby (18:43.855)
And forgive me, I'm just trying to work out Jim being with Jim the third or fourth. I know Royal Melbourne over the years have had continuity like you wouldn't believe in terms of supers. Obviously the great Claude Crockford, Richard McMorkham, correct.

Leo (18:59.118)
Yeah.

Leo (19:03.918)
Yeah. Well, Mick Morkham was the first. Claude Crockford was the second. I think Claude Crockford was there for nearly 50 years, 40 something years, I believe. And then Peter Williams took over from him. I think he might have been 20 years. And Jim Porter was there from 92 to about 2008, I'm going to say. Yeah. So he was the fourth superintendent, Richard subsequently. And I still call Richard.

Shane Derby (19:22.159)
Okay, and then Richard.

And Richard took over then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's.

Leo (19:33.198)
the new superintendent and he goes, Leo, I've been here nearly 20 years.

Shane Derby (19:35.471)
Of course, he, I think he moved from Metro. Was that right? To RM? Yeah. Yeah.

Leo (19:42.35)
He did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was a metric. So when I was in, when I was at Royal Melbourne, he was a superintendent over at Metropolitan. Yeah.

Shane Derby (19:46.095)
Okay. Okay. And it's, uh, and I guess for a, for a young lad from Pukkara Bay, what, uh, what struck you? I mean, obviously you'd seen the, the imagery and, and obviously it probably read a lot in the likes of, uh, the world at Lissa golf about Royal Melbourne. What struck you in the early days in terms of, you know, as you're trying to get your head around, uh, living in a new city and, you know,

What are your memories of those first few weeks, the working away on the Hello Turf at Blackrock?

Leo (20:23.244)
Yeah, so I mean, one of the attractions with Royal Melbourne was, you know, profile. But at that stage, I didn't know why Royal Melbourne was great. I just knew it was great and I knew it had great, you know, profile. But I also knew it had tournaments and I was really interested in working at a tournament. And in Jim's presentation, he, you know, he touched on some of the tournaments they hosted and things like that. I thought that'd be awesome. I'd love to do a tournament. So.

My first goal was to go there for two years and to work through to the Greg Norman Holden Classic, which they had at the end of 1996. But yeah, those first couple of weeks, I've used, I've kind of reverted to those memories when I walked into Paraparami Beach, because that first day at Royal Melbourne, I just remember, wow, like the scale, the size, you knew immediately that you were somewhere special.

All right, it was just grand. And I'm not being contrite here, but I remember sitting on a Greensmire in my first week at Paraparoma Beach and I had a similar feeling. It's just, there's something about the land. There's something about the scale that you just felt greatness straight away. So yeah, hey, fantastic. First job, you go out and you divotize. That was my first job. So it got me around all 36 T blocks.

and had a good look at the place. And the property is expansive. I mean, it's, you know, coming from Whitby Golf Club where you're only a five minute machine ride from your shed at Royal Melbourne, you could be 20, 25 minutes, you know, out at the extremities of the property. So, yeah.

Shane Derby (22:03.631)
It sounds like you've had two spiritual experiences there, both initially at RM and then laterally at Paraparam when you took over.

Leo (22:16.864)
Yeah, I did. And I kind of share those with other people around me because, you know, there wasn't everyone at Royal Melbourne at the time that appreciated probably where they were working. And I was kind of a little bit disbelief. You know, we had a big crew, we had 26 guys, but there'd be a handful of blokes, it was a job to them. And they were kind of like, hey, like settle down, like, you know, tournaments come, tournaments go. And I'm like, this is incredible, you know. And same when I come into Paraparami Beach, I had guys that there was just kind of like a job to them.

And I'm like, no, no, this is great. You're privileged to be working on these properties and to be a custodian, even though it's fleeting. And I've always tried to instill that, or tried to instill that in people around. So, hey, this is special. When you drive through the gates, appreciate that you're driving through something special because I don't know how many employees there are working on golf courses around the world, but there's a very small percentage to get the opportunity to drive through the gates of truly great golf courses.

Shane Derby (23:13.807)
particularly, and I know locally Palipalumu is considered the spiritual home of golf in New Zealand. And it really, you know, having had the pleasure of walking those washboard, I mean, George Waters in his book Sandman Golf speaks about the washboard effect. And, you know, it's funny, I had a similar feeling when I was in Barnabugle.

Dunes and Lost Farm. You you come so far for me from Ireland, you can, you're so far away from home, but it feels so familiar because of the the rumpled fairways. You know, it's, I mean, you could.

Leo (23:59.022)
Oh, I could imagine having been to Ireland and been to Barthburgl. I mean, that could comfortably sit on the west coast of Ireland easily.

Shane Derby (24:07.375)
Yeah. And, and, and, you know, the, the, I mean, particularly the one, the one thing that struck me about Barnburgo was a very fleeting visit back in, in January, 2020, that, that you could transplant it to the west coast of Ireland or the, the west coast of Scotland. And, you know, it would sit very, very comfortably there. And, and, and it would, it would stand up, stand up to, and, and Pada Pada Ume as well. I mean, it stands up to, to muster in relation to anything we have here. It's, it's, you know, two extraordinary golf properties.

Leo (24:41.068)
Yeah, totally. I couldn't agree more with that statement. And it's been interesting in later years, and I'm sure we're going to talk about it at some stage, but just to go back to Ireland and Scotland and see the style of golf courses there. And it's just like, wow, someone's just picked up Paraparangu out of Scotland or Ireland and just dropped it into the other end of the earth. I mean, it's quite extraordinary.

Shane Derby (25:01.007)
100%. So you finished off your apprenticeship at RM and then again, a plan. Let's go traveling. You dragged your poor girlfriend, who is now your wife, off to the USA, I believe. Looking at more golf. She was well -acquainted with reading books in car parks.

Leo (25:17.582)
or so.

Leo (25:21.536)
Yes.

Leo (25:25.518)
So initially I'd give myself two years. I mean, every Kiwi kind of does their own way and, you know, hands over to the motherland and all the rest of it. And I'd give myself two years in Australia. I thought that would be the jump and then I'd go to Europe. And then no sooner we'd done the Greg Norman Holden classic that Royal Melbourne was announced as being the host of the 98 Presidents Cup. And that was the first time the Presidents Cup was going to be hosted outside of America. So.

That just re -engaged me for the next two years and worked towards that. And I mean, that was an incredible experience, Shane. It was the biggest thing that had ever come down to Australia. I mean, the quality of the players, the size of the tournament, which I thought at that stage was big. I mean, the President's Cup now is even, I think, three times as big as what it was when Royal Melbourne first hosted it in 98. So that was the plan. And so I did the President's Cup and then looked to travel the world.

before, you know, we'll look to travel the world. So, yep, first stop was, we purchased a round the world ticket, gave a certain amount of miles, I guess, and first stop was America. And I remember planning my trip and obviously planning it from a place like Royal Melbourne was probably easier than planning it from a place like Whitby Golf Club when you...

send, it was facsimiles in those days. So I sent a facsimile to my first one, sent several of them, but I remember the first reply was from Jeff Markle at Cypress Point Club. And he had just watched the President's Cup and said some very complimentary things about Royal Melbourne and welcomed me to come and visit the golf course. So that was kind of the first, we flew into LA, drove up to the Monterey Peninsula and

in quite a nice car and parked that car at the airport and rented a $15 a day wreck to get us around the Monterey Peninsula. But I don't think I quite appreciated how salubrious the 17 mile drive was going to be when we came through and it clapped out all Toyota or Chevy or whatever it was. But I remember turning up to Cypress Point Club and an absolute beat up car and meeting Jeff and it was just incredible.

Leo (27:44.75)
Jeff, one of Jeff's guys showed me around the front line and Jeff himself took the time to show me around the back line. And, you know, I mean, I never forget, you know, I was very nervous, you know, turning up and all the rest of it. And he just immediately puts you at ease and asks where the slab of fosters is. You know, did I bring him some beer? Where are my golf clubs? And, you know, I was like, oh my goodness, I was worried about getting in the gate, let alone kind of, you know, myself, let alone bringing a set of golf clubs.

He said, hey, if you ever come back, bring your golf clubs. But it was just wonderful to then get out and start seeing more of these golf courses and trying to work out in my own mind what made these golf courses great as opposed to a golf course that was just good. And it was just all part of developing things and developing my own thoughts and appreciating different properties and different schools of design.

you know, piecing that stuff all together. So, but you know, like you said, like my girlfriend, who's now my wife, she was with me and you know, it's like a green keepers widow. They, well, they, she spent a lot of time in some really great golf clubs reading books. Well, but she was incredibly supportive. She knew this was, you know, this was my passion. This was my dream. And she was, she was very good at supporting that. So,

Shane Derby (28:53.807)
Hello, hello, Mrs. Barber. Hello, Mrs. Barber, if you're listening. He didn't mean that.

Leo (29:11.566)
And I always say, I say, look, you know, Dell, you've, you've visited some golf clubs that people would give their right arm to, you know, golfers would give their right arm to get through those gates. So there you go.

Shane Derby (29:15.919)
Yeah, I'm one of them. Hands off. Listen, you're the second Kiwi I've had on. And it's funny that you mentioned a Clapdale vehicle turning up to the car park in Cypress Point. Michael Goldstein, as you probably know, did his world tour with Jamie Patton. Hello, lads, if you're listening. Pure Golf 2010. Had a nice chat with Michael back probably when he was just coming out of a dose of COVID.

Leo (29:34.862)
No.

Shane Derby (29:43.183)
But himself and Jamie arrived in the car park in Cypress Point in a clapped out Dodge, which they proceeded to drive across the bloody country. So there's a nice commonality there between yourself and Goldie's story. But anyway, so you travel around, obviously, some of the better private members clubs in the States. And I believe you then had a wee sojourn over in these parts in Ireland and the UK.

Leo (29:55.606)
Yep.

Leo (30:16.046)
Yeah, so I think we had a month through the US and then came into the UK and I secured employment up at the Duke's course working for the Old Course Hotel on their golf course up there. So after a week in London, just after Easter, I headed up and took up a casual employment contract with the Duke's course. And for those not familiar with the Duke's course, I mean, it's in St. Andrews, it's not part of the Lynx Trust, it's owned by the Old Course Hotel. And

I understand it kind of came about from people going to stay at the Old Course Hotel and thinking they had an expectation that they were just going to play the Old Course. And they'd been bitterly disappointed, you know, disappointed when they couldn't get on and the hotel say, hey, you can't get on here, but we've got our own course just up the hill. So,

Shane Derby (30:58.127)
That was a Peter Thompson design course, yeah.

Leo (31:04.942)
Yeah, it was a Peter Thompson course, little pot bunkers, inland course. I had some really great features about it. I think Tim Liddy might have redone it since. I have been back there and it's got a whole lot more exposed sand and he's changed the bunker. But really good rowdy. But for me, Shane, I had wanted to go to Scotland.

know, a purist, I wanted to go to Scotland and I wanted to learn the old ways and I wanted to kind of, you know, hand feed greens and you know, top dress, top dress by a shovel and things like that. And, you know, hey, yeah, but, hey, look, it was an inland Scottish course. You know, they threw around slow release fertilizer, it had an Australian superintendent, it was designed by an Australian. So I kind of realized,

Shane Derby (31:37.711)
Do your best, do your best old Tom impersonation. Yeah. Gotcha.

Leo (31:58.126)
And that's no slight on any of that. It's wonderful. But I just realized it wasn't going to tick the boxes that I wanted to tick in terms of what I wanted to get out of it. And I had a very short space of time. And even, you know, you look back as a 50 year old, you think, yeah, that is a that is a click of the fingers in time. So I'm kind of glad that I didn't guts through for the entire contract. I went back to London and immersed myself in some other things. Some more.

Shane Derby (32:25.583)
And when you were in London, did you get an opportunity to check out any of the Surrey and Berkshire Heatland courses?

Leo (32:26.732)
I guess I live life rather than just lived greenkeeping.

Leo (32:38.542)
So I did landscaping down in London and I worked on some massive properties. I mean, these, goodness me, for a kid from New Zealand to go onto these estates and do pot, do bedding plants and all the rest of it. And I'd look over, I looked over the fence. I remember doing it on the side of Sunningdale and I did another property in the side of, on the middle of Wentworth. And I mean, they had a, they had a,

Mark V, Jacksonville, Greensboro, that's what he motors lawns with just because he could. One of the gaps in my golf resume is I've never played Heathland courses, even though I worked around the side and I looked over the fence, but never itched that scratch.

Shane Derby (33:24.143)
Something to look forward to. Would you believe I only started itching that particular scratch last year? We whistle stop tour of some of those places, New Zealand Golf Club, Woking Golf Club, at a tour of the Back Nine at St. George's Hill. And where else did I play? At a tour of the Addington as well, which is quite a remarkable job that Clayton, Dries and Pont are doing in conjunction with

with with Ryan Nodes, who is who is obviously the the driving force behind that. And you really have to start itching that scratch Leo, because when you start all you're dreaming, I mean, I said to a friend who lives over there, I said, I don't know how you ever get any work done over here, because I would just be I'm still dreaming about Welkin Golf Club and getting back to the Addington and and various other places.

Leo (33:55.822)
Mmm.

Shane Derby (34:22.575)
There's just so much quality golf in a concentrated location. I mean, it has to be one of the one of the best locations for for golf in the world.

Leo (34:40.974)
Yeah, I mean, it's something I certainly want to do. And I have been to the UK or been back to the UK several times since. But it's just such a shame. It's like wherever you go when you're coming from such a distance, your time on the ground is so short. I've always utilized that time searching out the links experiences. And I suspect I don't know, but I suspect if you're going to do proper justice to the Heathland courses, you've always just got to go there.

Shane Derby (35:07.503)
That's correct, yeah.

Leo (35:08.43)
and plant yourself there for a week, 10 days and do Heathland only rather than, you know, try to do all the links courses and try and sneak a Sunnydale or the Additene or something like that. So I haven't tried to do that yet.

Shane Derby (35:15.759)
Well, it's something to look forward to, Leo, and hopefully in the not too distant future. Anyway, so you finished up your landscaping in London and I think you headed home then. And again, a plan with a list and what direction did the career take you at that stage?

Leo (35:23.468)
Yes.

Leo (35:44.334)
So this might sound contrite, but I'm a passionate New Zealander, right? So going overseas was not going to be the be -in -or -need. I wanted to go overseas to develop the skills that I could come back and make a difference at a golf course in New Zealand. That was part of my bigger goal. So it was always the plan to come back to New Zealand. And then coming back from the UK, I landed in New Zealand, so I would have been away five years all up. Five years all up.

and dropped back in New Zealand and it was a real shock. It was kind of, here I was 25 years of age. I was living back at home. I was sharing a room with my younger brother. I had no job prospects. I was trying to get back into the New Zealand scene. I'd gone for a couple of jobs and I'd been unsuccessful. So it was a real kind of like, oh my goodness, it was like the whole travel buzz was over.

And you know, I went building for, my dad's a builder. I went building with dad for eight or nine months, just why I bided my time to try and get an entry back into New Zealand. And at that stage of my career, so I'd done my apprenticeship, I'd learned my trade at Royal Melbourne. I was looking to develop, say the management side of things, the man management, the more senior authority.

And for me, that was an assistance role. So that was a two IC role. So I was looking for that kind of role. And look, it took a few while, and it took a little while, and it took a couple of closed doors, but eventually one opened. And I'm a big believer of the jobs you miss out on almost set you up for the jobs that were actually really suited for you. So even though you're disappointed when you walk out of an interview, you didn't get it.

you can look back, hopefully you can look back objectively later and think, you know, that would have been a terrible move for me. But the one that came up was a North Shore Golf Club, 27 holes, busy, very busy course. One of the busiest courses in New Zealand on the North Shore of Auckland. It came with a house, it came with 15, 16, 17 staff, 27 holes. It was absolutely perfect for me at that time in my career. So yeah, I had to have a little bit of patience, but eventually, you know,

Shane Derby (38:04.527)
Yeah. And then you headed on Ashi and somewhere I've actually played, Maunganui on the east coast of just almost directly opposite the likes of Taupo and Rotorua on the east coast of the North Island.

Leo (38:08.302)
something open.

Leo (38:28.814)
Yeah, a wonderful place. And so I did three years at North Shore. And then I was ready for that next stage, you know, so at every step in my career, it was measured. I never tried to go from apprentice to superintendent at 21. You know, like, it was kind of step by step. Mount Manganui opened a Lynx course on Lynx land. And I remember writing down in my diary when I was deciding whether to accept it or not, I wrote down in the diary, every course in New Zealand I wanted to work at.

And then I started crossing off courses that were maybe geographically in places I didn't want to live, all courses where I thought the superintendent wasn't going to leave in any kind of particular hurry. And it got down to a very short list. It was just a no brainer to go to Mount Maunganui. And that was my first super gig I took over from a very competent greenkeeper there, Gordon Trimbath, who had been there for about 10 or 12 years before me. And it was just nice. It was a perfect place for a young superintendent.

to get his feet under, to get his feet into things. And I followed his program, he had beautiful Pancross greens and it just allowed me the space to kind of develop that next kind of stage of green keeping.

Shane Derby (39:37.583)
Cool. And obviously the next role is the role you're in now, but we will intersperse your story in conjunction with the Paraparam story. So, so jumping over to Paraparamu Beach, I'm just wondering just for listeners, and I will stick up a nice feature that Ran Morissette did on the

Golf Club Atlas website about Pariparam. So you can see some great pictures and some good commentary from one of the one of the minds of the game in terms of in terms of golf course architecture. Just wondering, first of all, how you would characterize the site before we jump into the history and the 75 years and Alec Russell's involvement.

Leo (40:32.908)
Yeah, so Paraparaui Beach is 50 kilometres north of Wellington, which is the capital city of New Zealand. And it's laid out over, it's coastal, so it's laid out over sand dunes, rolling sand dunes. It's a, back in the day, Paraparaui was the place where Wellingtonians would come for summer. You know, back in the days when...

transport was a little bit more challenging and roading was a little bit more kind of rudimentary and all the rest of it. So it kind of really developed as a holiday destination for Wellingtonians. In later years, it's become a place where Wellingtonians retire, slightly better climate in Wellington, but not too far away from family and friends. And then a lot of young families. So that's kind of the demographic of the area. But of course now it's connected to Wellington, we're only 30, 35 minutes.

by car. So that kind of sets the scene, I guess, for Paraparama and the golf course sits right in the middle of the community. You know, could walk off the 18th green and you're in the little township, you know, within 200m.

Shane Derby (41:38.767)
OK, I have you'll be interested to hear. I do have a copy of Neil Crafter's biography on Alex Russell, Alec Russell, shall I say, on the way. So I do intend to do a deeper dive on Mr. Russell, but you might just give listeners who perhaps have never heard of of of Mr. Russell, you might give us a little introduction to Alec Russell before we get cracking into the specifics of his work and what was there before he arrived.

He was obviously one of the local partners of Dr. McKenzie, who obviously stemmed from his 1926, a couple of months in Australia.

Leo (42:26.732)
Yeah, so Alec Russell was a very good golfer. He won the 1924 Australian Open. So he was a champion golfer, a member of Royal Melbourne and obviously probably well regarded of good standing in the community. And when Alistair Mackenzie came over on his world tour of 1926, I think Alec Russell had already kind of done some preliminary work, I understand, that might have done some preliminary work on designs at Royal Melbourne.

But when Alistair Mackenzie came over, he worked very closely. And I've got a reference hanging on the wall next door here that Alistair Mackenzie wrote for Alec Russell. And he says like, he'd, goodness me, I've just tripped over what I was about to say. But like.

Shane Derby (43:10.895)
We can always edit that out. So if you want to go out and get it, please feel free to do so.

Leo (43:23.63)
He was more capable of carrying out Alistair Mackenzie's ideas than anyone that Alistair Mackenzie had ever met. So he obviously, Alistair Mackenzie obviously thought a great deal of Alec Russell. And...

Shane Derby (43:28.271)
That's some endorsement.

Leo (43:36.718)
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, Alistair Mackenzie on that world tour, I mean, he's credited with a lot of things, but, you know, he often only spent very short periods of time in these places, as you know. But what he was very adept at was connecting with someone local that was able to kind of translate his ideas when Alistair Mackenzie kind of moved on. And Alec Russell was certainly one of those. And, you know, they entered into a design partnership and...

and Russell carried on his ideas. And it's very contentious, I guess, of how much do you attribute to Alistair Mackenzie and how much do you attribute to the people that you left behind, like Alec Russell.

Shane Derby (44:12.719)
Well, we'll call it Mackenzie's good judge of character and a good judge of selecting the correct or appropriate local partners. And it's probably a combined effort, certainly in terms of Royal Melbourne, East and West, the Morecambe, Mackenzie and Russell. How's that? And Crockford, obviously, as well.

Shane Derby (44:40.911)
That's probably that's look at it. Thank you for that synopsis of Mr. Russell. Obviously, he would go on subsequently to design the likes of Riversdale, Yarra Yarra, amongst other and Lake Karenup, obviously over in Western Australia. But, you know, he did and he was summoned to New Zealand in 1949. Before we look at his influence at Paraparaamu Beach,

Leo (44:44.874)
Fantastic.

Shane Derby (45:10.415)
I'm just wondering, what can you tell us about the foundation of the golf club at Paraparam and what perhaps was in situ before Russell arrived?

Leo (45:29.55)
Yeah, so like I said, Paraparama came about really as a destination for Wellingtonians to holiday. Golf was played there from 1929. It was on a very rudimentary course on the same property over a sheep track. So it was grazed. It was leased off a local farmer. But then the Depression hit and the farmer sold the land. And it was purchased by a consortium of five Wellington businessmen, quite prominent individuals.

who viewed the pass of land not only in its potential for golf, but its potential for real estate. So a lot of the land on the Seward side was all developed into a housing estate. And then the golf course was retained, but it went from a nine hole course originally, played around the outside of the property, extended in 1937, 1938 to 18 holes.

It was run pretty much for its first 20 years as a pay for play type thing. It was the Greenkeepers' wife would sit in the tin shed and click the dollar around or whatever it was in those days. So that's kind of how golf was played. And then out of that consortium of five, two of them wanted to carve the golf club up and create more sections out of it. And we're so fortunate, I guess, that the other three dug in.

bought the other two out and formed the golf club as we know it today. So incorporated the golf club, raised the moanies to purchase the land outright, incorporated it into the club we know today. And that's kind of how, and then once the club was developed, the vision of the founders, and this is brilliant, the vision of the founders, they wanted to create a facility that was capable of hosting the most significant events in New Zealand.

So they wanted to, they want to para para to be, you know, to contribute to the development of golf in the country. And in order to do that, they needed to do some tweaks on the golf course. They reached out, they reached out to Sloan Morpeth, who was a New Zealander, but living in Australia, he was the general manager of the Commonwealth Golf Club and also the Australian Golf Union had a joint role there. And at one stage he was actually the general manager of Yarra Yarra, I think during the war years. So,

Leo (47:56.48)
He'd done some design work himself. He designed Portsy and did some design at Cobblewoth, also did one in New Zealand. It was upon his recommendation that Alec Russell was engaged to come across and to create this championship links that we enjoy today.

Shane Derby (48:07.311)
Before we get cracking into the extent of Russell's revisions, I just want to linger a little bit on the significance of 1949. Obviously, it's post World War II. At that stage, you know, you're you're you know, Harry Colt would pass away in 1952. You were kind of coming to the the natural conclusion and the deaths of of the Golden Age architects, whoever was left.

I'm just about to head into the age of Robert Trent Jones, Robert Trent Jones and Dick Wilson and the School of Heroic and Penal Design. You know, obviously where the notion of of of longer, harder, tougher became to rigor. I'm just wondering if we can take a moment to try and assess how unique the building of somewhere like Paraparam at the time was and the fact, obviously, that, you know,

Russell made a couple of visits or was one visit and ultimately left it to the local guys to put his vision into the ground.

Leo (49:23.47)
Yeah, so most of the guys that were designing those courses in the early 1900s, 1910s, 1920s, they were all passing away in the 1930s and maybe early 1940s. So, Russell was involved with the West course in 1926 with Mackenzie. He then did the East course, I think in 1931, 1932. So I believe, and I would love to hear some feedback on this, that possibly Paraparama Beach was the last

to be designed by a Golden Age architect in 1949. Because I mean, most of it, like I said, most of those guys had passed away by that stage.

Shane Derby (49:55.759)
So if we take a look at the extent of Russell's revisions, what can you tell us about what he did or what he recommended doing in terms of the plan and how perhaps that's changed over time due to perhaps boundary issues? I know you're kind of much in the same way as Royal Litherman St Anne's is kind of

residentially locked, obviously, as you mentioned earlier on, it's, it's stepped off the coast a little bit, obviously pure links them, but you know, you're, you're, you're essentially surrounded by residential streets. Would that be fair?

Leo (50:45.262)
Yes, we are. We are just back from the ocean. I think at our closest point, we might be a couple of hundred metres from the ocean. But I wonder if Alec Russell learnt from his experiences with Alastair McKenzie, because the way the work was carried out in Paraparan was very similar to how things were done at Royal Melbourne. So Russell came across on a steamship. He spent only 5 -weeks on the property.

He would go at each day armed with a topographic map and a five iron and he'd hit balls and kind of refine his routing. And then he left with instructions to the green keeper and Douglas White who was the president of the time or the senior figure in the club to carry out his work, carry out natural earthworks.

and all the rest of it. So what he found when he turned up, but he did say, if I do nothing, this is already a good golf course. But the brief was to make something great and to make something capable of hosting the country's most significant events. So a lot of the playing corridors were already there. There was no bunkers on the golf course. But if I look at the golf course today and I look at some of the things he did, yep, some of the holes he didn't touch at all in terms of.

playing corridor. But some of the real genius of Paraparama Beach was carried out by Alec Russell. So, you know, the 17th hole, the 17th hole is a split fairway, possibly, and I hate the term signature hole, but it's very widely regarded as a great example of strategic golf. But that was two golf holes. That was a golf hole that used to travel north using the lower fairway and then a short nothing path for coming the other way using the

using the top fairway. Russell took those two holes and turned it into one hole and split fairway with all sorts of different strategic options. He linked in the 13th hole, another great hole. He created the eighth hole from a rudimentary straightaway path forward to a dog lead to a small green, very clever again and very strategic. And so forth. So a lot of the corridor, and I guess the corridors were there just by virtue of the fact that

Leo (53:08.684)
the nature of the sand dunes. I mean, there was kind of not too many ways you could kind of play golf over that property. But he just created some genius. He kicked some greensights to one side to an angle to favour a shot from one side of the fairway to the other. He bunkered one side, left the other side open. He just did a lot of kind of things like that. So he really put that touch of class and

And I guess gave the course some strategic value as opposed to just playing up and down a set of sand dunes.

Shane Derby (53:36.399)
You know, I came across as part of my prep for today, I came across a black and white aerial photo, I think, from the National Archive, maybe from the fifties or late fifties, I think. And what struck me and we will get into the vegetation management and what you've done to to open up vistas and so on and so forth. And indeed, the law of unintended consequences. But it struck me that there wasn't.

uh, the suggestion of a tree, a, uh, it was, it was pure links and in terms of no trees and, and no beautification that take place. And that that's the one thing that struck me. Obviously I, I think it was first in Pariparam in 2007 and we last there in 2010 or 2011 maybe. Um, and there was plenty of trees.

But we would get onto that. But I suppose it just was was quite stark. Sorry, it just it just it amused me when I counterpoint just looking at Google Earth from 2007. I was first there to modern day and you've done you've done a pretty extensive vegetation rationalization program. We will get into that in a second. So.

Actually, my question, my next question is completely unrelated to that, given I'm sorry for rambling, but, you know, there is a commonality between some of the great courses in Australia and indeed Paraparamo and the strategy or the idea of the founding fathers that it would be a place to hold great events. And I understand that the Caltechs tournament over the years was really, really important.

Leo (55:16.236)
Cool.

Shane Derby (55:29.167)
for the development of golf in New Zealand and obviously Paraparam was a shining light from a hosting perspective.

Leo (55:45.774)
Yeah, so Doug White, one of the founders and one of the very strong figures in the early days of the club. He was president for 26, the first 26 years, very strong figure. Good golfer himself, served on the New Zealand Golf Council. I think he might have been chairman of the New Zealand Golf Council. And he had a real vision for developing the game in New Zealand. So once the course was not open, because they were playing golf right through the period that Alec Russell's changes were reported, it didn't like close and then.

reopened. So they were playing golf the whole way through. But when all the changes were complete, I think it was about 1951, Doug White created a tournament for amateur golf. It was like an invitational and he wanted to grow the game of amateur golf through increased competition.

that and then that was really the forerunner to this event called the Keltex. And so not only was the Keltex, it was an invitation as well, not only was that set up to grow the amateur game, but he introduced growing the professional game. And it was the truly first pay for play type event that New Zealand had seen. So the first Keltex was in 1955. Peter Thompson was the victor and he would go on to win four more Keltexes and a New Zealand Open. And that ran for 18 years.

And I talked to a lot of old guys today, you know, including my father, who, for them, the Celtics and the fact that it would attract the best players from across Australia, New Zealand, and then they would also bring their friends like Gary Plow would come down and other top professionals, Maurice Benbridge, David Thomas up from the North. So as youngsters, these kids would go out and they would see the world's best players playing in their backyard. And it really helped to grow and develop the love of the game and the

the sport and you know the sport was really taken off through the 50s and 60s obviously and the Celtics was very significant in that so held every year towards the back end of the season the back end of the other tours that were around the world and they would come to Paraparangu and put on an absolute clinic for the locals.

Shane Derby (57:52.111)
Yeah, getting back, I was remiss. I didn't ask a follow up question with regard to Alec Russell. And I believe he returned three years later and expressed himself tremendously happy with the with with with how the the greenkeeping team had implemented his plans.

Leo (58:24.174)
Yeah, he came back in 1952. Wrote a little report for the club, which we've also got on the wall. And in there he says how delighted he was with what he had found. If there were any mistakes, which he didn't believe there were any, but they were his own, he took responsibility for those. He then laid out a couple of, like a whole by whole, just some little tweaks that could be done here and there to further enhance what had been created at that stage.

Shane Derby (58:44.815)
What I'll do is I'll drop that back in. I've seen this bit. I'll drop that back into the the sorry. Apologies. I had taken a note and then went off and I fucking tangent. So so obviously we now have, you know, probably one of the. One of the best courses in New Zealand and and and I'm just wondering what happened.

Leo (59:02.316)
No problem. No problem.

Shane Derby (59:11.215)
over the preceding years. Is there anything, obviously you're there the last 18 or so. And I suspect that, you know, the advent of colour TV and wall to wall green grass and I guess Palo Palo Mu would be no different to other Lynx golf courses that perhaps erroneously were following a trend or a perceived trend towards beautification.

green grass and fertilization and agustification. Would that be, would that be, is that, is that, is that a characterization I could use in relation to what happened over the preceding, or the following decade, shall we say?

Leo (01:00:07.31)
You look probably fair. I mean, that was just trends of the day, weren't they? I mean, this is no slight on anyone that was there at the time. It was just the trend. And whether it was coming out of the US as television got more kind of popular and fairways was strike cut and everything was, like you say, green grass. Or wind was seen as the enema to good golf. So let's plant some trees to block the wind out. Let's put a hedge around it.

tee to make you more private and more comfortable when you're teeing off. And so they were just like probably incremental things that kind of crept in over a long period of time. And I mean, we had so much more education around today. I mean, they thought they were beautifying the place, but in essence, they were just choking what was great golf. And as I like to say, kind of like just cluttering the canvas. So,

know, it was trends at the time and it was incremental. But you know, you plant a tree and well you plant a few trees and 25 years later, I mean, you know, they're prominent. That's totally, so you've gone from this great open links golf course where trees have no strategy to all of a sudden you're playing around a grove of trees off the front of the third tee. I mean, you know, and you've got all these wonderful vistas and all of a sudden they're all kind of closed up and shut off. So it would have

Shane Derby (01:01:29.775)
You mentioned the wind there and this is a complete aside. I did hear that prominent Royal Adelaide member and Australian cricketer Travis Head was recently with you complaining via Twitter or Instagram that it was blowing 40 or 50 K an hour recently. So he, he, he, he may, he may be missed the trees in terms of a bit of shelter. Hey.

Leo (01:01:34.126)
it would have changed remarkably the whole look and feel of the place.

Leo (01:02:01.966)
So the Australian Cricketers came out on Monday, they played a 20 -20 here on Wednesday, I think about 12 or 13. And yes, the wind, well, it was a breeze. It was a breeze, but it was probably a 30 to 40 kilometre breeze. So it was, yeah.

Shane Derby (01:02:07.439)
Well, he's not he's not unused to a breeze in in rural Adelaide, but maybe not to that extent. Certainly when it switches around northerly and both in and it's coming off the desert, it's pretty pretty warm. So maybe he just felt like a bit of a fish out of water. He's some some golfer in our minds. Most of them can hit the ball quite well.

Leo (01:02:36.492)
Oh, the Aussie cricketers are fantastic. I mean, some of them, I have no doubt that they probably had a tough decision as youngsters whether they were going to go to professional golfers or professional cricketers. They're exceptional. All low markers. Yeah.

Shane Derby (01:02:38.575)
Yeah. Yeah. So, so we're now kind of into your neck of the woods in relation to becoming a superintendent initially 18 years ago. How did the opportunity materialize? Obviously it's kind of a homecoming for you because, you know, as a boy from down the road, born man and boy, you know, it must have, it must like, it must have felt like coming home.

Leo (01:03:15.214)
So growing up, Paraparaumu always held a special place and probably still does throughout New Zealand. So like I talked about the Celtics and people of my father's generation going along and growing their love of golf. For me, during the 80s and 90s and early 2000s, Paraparaumu held a lot of New Zealand Opens. So we've held 12 New Zealand Opens in total, more than any other venue, any other golf course in New Zealand. So for those years through the 80s, 90s, I mean, I would...

I would come up in 84 was my first experience, but I wasn't allowed to come. My two older brothers went and for whatever reason, I would have been 10 or 11. I was probably seen as a bit of a hindrance. So I didn't get to go. 84 was when Corey Pavin won here. And my first experience was 1988 when Ian Stanley won. So it was a place that you would come up, you watched the New Zealand Open and they would always have one or two big players come down to New Zealand to fly fish and play golf type of thing.

This was before the advent of parents money and all this kind of stuff. So it was incredible. You know, the top New Zealanders and top Australians. So, you know, for me, it was always, it was always the idea. I was like, wow, I'd love to be Superintendent of Paraparabi one day. And honestly, when I was sitting down as an 18, 19 year old kid going into green keeping with this plan, the end game was, I would love to be Superintendent of Paraparabi beach one day.

And move forward when I'm sitting on my machine writing in my diary, crossing courses off where I didn't think the superintendent job was coming up. I mean, I put a line through Paraparama Beach because the superintendent had been there, well, at that stage probably 32, 33 years. And I just suspected he would be seen out as retirement and that would probably cross over with my window to become superintendent there and it would possibly not happen well.

He did resign in 2005 and the opportunity came up to go full circle. Fair to say at that stage, the club wasn't going through its proudest moment in its very rich history. It came off the back of the 2002 New Zealand Open where they hosted Tiger Woods. No coincidence, sorry, no relation or anything to the fact of that tournament, but they did some capital works around that time.

Leo (01:05:40.206)
their financial issues kind of got out into the public and course conditioning was possibly not at its best. And so it was kind of a low ebb, which I know some people probably looked at that and thought, hey, I don't want to touch that. I looked at it and saw just opportunity. I thought, what a wonderful opportunity to come into a place at the bottom and be part of its rebirth or restoration. And it kind of ticked those boxes of me going overseas to get skills.

hopefully one day come back and have an influence on a significant piece of property in New Zealand. So it just, you know, we talk about being lucky, or we talk about, you know, putting yourself in a position when something comes up that you're there to take advantage of it, or you're in the right place at the right time.

Shane Derby (01:06:18.767)
I'm assuming now forgive me if I'm running off in the wrong direction, but I'm assuming as part of your interview process, you obviously were walking the golf course with a critical eye and suggesting what you might do in terms of pulling the place up metaphorically by bootstraps agronomically from a vegetation management perspective, maybe from a

reconstruction or rationalization perspective, but really maybe I think from talking with you and hearing you on various, as I said on the other podcast, I think probably succinctly reconnecting with that link's identity, would that be fair?

Leo (01:07:18.696)
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm just saying, I mean, I saw the opportunity and I'm just trying to think here. So.

So when I went out to the golf course, I mean, there was so much low hanging fruit. All right. So it's kind of, I mean, you go into a place, anyway, there was so much low hanging fruit. So I remember going out and having a look and thinking, oh my goodness, I could just see a little bit of herbicide here and a mowing line there and a, you know, bit of sharpening the mowers. There was a lot of stuff that you could do to get some winds on the board very quickly. And I remember taking a plug out of the green and the profile was really good. I mean, the surface wasn't great.

the profile was really good. And the course to me just looked, it just looked like it had been, it looked like a child in the middle of a messy divorce. All right. And this sometimes happened in golf clubs and that's not a slide on the superintendent of the day or the committee of the day, because there's so much, the committee sometimes places so much pressure onto a superintendent and, and, and, you know, it could be very difficult. I mean, there might be someone on the committee that, that they want the green soft and they want the green green.

because they want to stop their 5 wood from 130m or something like that. So there's a lot of things and the superintendent had been there for 35 years and possibly beaten out. So the course just looked like it had been in the middle of a messy divorce. So I just came in and a lot of low hanging fruit and there was just a lot of things that you could do quite simply to bring about significant change.

Shane Derby (01:08:44.239)
You know, you mentioned I saw you on the video. You were talking about the organic matter and I think again, no reflection on anybody. It just is. It was what it was. And I think your, your touch level and you did mention to me that there's two ways of measuring this. So forgive me. I'm, I'm a, I'm a lay person and not a turfy, uh, even though I'm a golf tragic, but I know what I know, but more importantly, I know what I don't know.

So then the touch level, if I'm correct in the way you were measuring was, was, was 10 to 11%. And I think you have it around 4%. Now would that be a, would that be a fair.

Leo (01:09:28.994)
I did get it down to 4%. We'd be more than that now. But yeah, look, they're incredibly thatchy. And so one of the first things was just firm the place up. So we removed a lot of organic matter in those first couple of years through some very aggressive means, because I'd read a lot of literature and I'd spoken to a lot of people. And it was until you get that organic matter level down, I

you're not going to bring about the changes that you're going to require to reinstate the firmness, which is then going to kind of enhance Russell's strategy and all the rest of it. So I had to kind of crash that organic level and it was very aggressive. It was large holocore tightening. There was heavy scarification and all the rest of it. Now subsequent to that, I've pulled way back from that. It's almost like the non -disturbance theory where...

where we don't hollow call time anymore, don't scarify, I deep air rate, I mini air rate, but it's all solid kind of times, I've backed all the inputs back off. I figure if you're not growing it, then you don't have to pull it out. We test every year. I think our golf course has got the greatest amount of history. I think we've got 22, 23 years of organic matter testing. So I can track it. And it's also, it's interesting. It's like, sometimes we just...

we just do things because that's what we've always done. Whereas I like to think I kind of challenge some of those things. So, hey, we core twice a year. Well, why do we core twice a year? Because that's what we've always done. Well, now through, you know, green keeping is part science and part art. And that's the kind of science part of it. That's where you can use the science part of it. So you can do your organic matter testing and you go, well, we don't need to core because we haven't grown it this year. So we don't need to pull it out. Just, you know, say,

Shane Derby (01:11:18.799)
And, you know, the the I was interested to see actually, well, two things. First of all, that you have had you have the ability and the opportunity to harvest your top dressing sand from the dunes on site.

Leo (01:11:22.902)
So I've kind of, well, I've completely gone the other way. Yeah.

Leo (01:11:46.574)
Yeah. So I mean, golf and it's purist. So you dig a hole. That's how that's a bunker. So it's all just natural sand all the way down. Our top dressing sand. Excuse me. Our top dressing sand is all mined on site. Excuse me. It's all mined on site. So we take it out of a sand dune. Regular top dressing has been huge to my program and you can't, you can't drop out coring.

and back off on the top dressing. You can't remove coring, but still continue to put lots of water and lots of fertilizer on. So if you take one piece of that puzzle out, in my opinion, the whole apple cart kind of goes upside down. So top dressing has been huge. So diluting the thatch layer. And yeah, we're very lucky we can pull it out on site. So, you know, occasionally talk, you know, going back to that committee versus superintendent, occasionally I'll get someone on committee that says,

I played this course the other day on the Gold Coast, beautiful white sand. Why can't we get white sand in our bunkers? So just things that you say, oh my goodness. So if you're there for 35 years and you're getting hair praying kind of things like that throwing you every second meeting, I can see how that can wear someone down. It's tiring. So then you've got to go into the whole mode of why we shouldn't do that and all the rest of it. So we're really, really lucky.

I appreciate that not every golf course is able to do that. And, you know, as, as, as environmental conditions get tighter and all the rest of it, I don't know how long we're going to be able to do that, but we certainly can at the moment. Just, just, just little, little bits out of the tune.

Shane Derby (01:13:21.999)
You know, I was interested to see, obviously it's not a monocultural sword that you're promoting there in Parparam. But, you know, I had not considered this, that you would have had at some, at one point anyway, rogue coquille grass actually on site, which I'm sure was an absolute pain in the ass to get rid of.

Leo (01:13:58.126)
Yes, I'll deal with Kaikyuu soon, but in terms of, like you said, we don't have a mono stand.

I think some people, well, I think almost the industry's gone too far into these mono stands, just pure bentgrass and all the rest of them. Hey, if I could, I'd have pure fescue, but that's not a reality for us. But I've never chased one grass over another. I've chased the surface. I've tried to develop the surface. And if you look at the green like the old course, and even Royal Melbourne when they had the old Sutton's, there was all these kind of different bents and fescue's.

and a little bit of power and stuff in them. Old courses are very similar. I think they might even have a little bit of file grass in some of them. But you have these wonderful surfaces. I've chased surface over perfection. And yeah, Kaikouya.

Oh my goodness. I it's, you know, I think Kaikyuu would even survive a nuclear war, but it's something we've attacked with fervor in the last four or five years. There's a product, I mean, Roundup will take it out, but it's like, what do you replace it with? We have a product now that will selectively take grasses out, but leave behind fescue. They're not Haloxyphile. So we've been doing a fair bit of that. So we'll go in and we'll spray the Kaikyuu areas. And then we go in and we core and we seed.

And then the next year the Kaikouya comes back, but it's easy to kind of remove. And three or four years later, we've kind of eradicated it. So we are well down the track with being Kaikouya free through all the short grass areas. So, you know, and that's no easy feat. And it's not a hay of one because that tough little bugger is like a cockroach, you know. It's a survivor. It'll always be back.

Shane Derby (01:15:40.271)
OK, we're moving on to the emotive subject, the most emotive subject for some people. So I did allude to the fact earlier on that certainly in the 50s, there was little or no trees on site. Obviously, looking at the aerials or the satellite imagery on Google Earth from my frame of reference in relation to when I first saw

Leo (01:15:48.302)
you just gotta keep on top of it.

Shane Derby (01:16:09.519)
Paraparamu in 2007, significant stands of trees. Just wondering if you can walk us through the vegetation management program that you implemented and how that was perhaps received by the members collectively and, you know, buy in an education is obviously quite important there.

Leo (01:16:49.698)
massive. And you said right at the start of that question, trees and vegetation management is such an emotional issue. You're dealing with people that have become very connected with that particular tree or group of trees. They may have planted that tree for whatever reason, it's got a deep connection with them. So hey, look, the tree program, I think started in the late 90s, from what I can tell from minutes before my time. And I think it was in response to

The likes of Peter Thompson and Sir Bob Charles kind of said, hey, Lynx Court shouldn't have trees. Like you should not have a tree on this property. And actually I have had Sir Bob Charles back on the property in subsequent years. And I remember he was getting interviewed by a television camera. And he said, no, no, no. He said, I'm not gonna get interviewed from this particular angle because there was a tree in the background. And he said, there should not be trees on Lynx Court. So then they swung around and he got interviewed with a dune in the background. So.

I think it came about, they started it in the late 90s, started taking out some big plantations.

When I came in 2006, I just continued it on. And hey, look, there's so much more education around now, around indigenous plantings and suitable planting for, you know, for Lynx courses and the like. So I just adopted the little and often, and I've read a lot of things, you know, about tree removal and, you know, almost how to do tree removal by stealth. You know, as I said before, like never waste a good storm.

And I remember reading about Oakmont, how they would start taking trees out from the back and when they had a snowstorm, the chainsaws would come in and the stump grinders would come in and they would start laying sod over the area where the tree came out. I did all of that. I did all of that. And it was just little and often, I tell you what, so it wasn't kind of like just go at it, you know, tenfold. It was just chip away at it. So,

Leo (01:18:49.038)
you take a tree out and they wouldn't even notice that it was gone. There was certainly some more prominent trees, you know, kind of further down the track. But I knew that I'd broken the back of it and largely the membership would come with me. But even if 10 % of the membership weren't, they would still be a very vocal minority and it would still be very tough to get these things through. So it's almost like, you know, cut first and ask forgiveness kind of later, ask first, forgiveness later.

And so that's kind of really how we kind of adopted it. But I knew that we had broken the back of it when I had one of my most passionate members come to me and he'd be very kind of, you know, outspoken against tree removal. And he came to me one day and we had this lone pine sitting on the sand dune on the ninth. And he said, hey, Leo, when's the tree on the ninth coming out? It's just like looking out of place. And I thought, oh my goodness, like we've broken the back of this. We're away. And...

And then the back end of the program is very simple to tidy everything up. The very last thing I think we did was the plantation we had in the middle. It was only 1 .5 hectares out of a 50 hectare property, but it was just very prominent and that was like a cash crop. So they would plant that, they would plant those pine trees, wait for them to mature in 30 years, cut them down and then use the proceeds to purchase an item of machinery or something like that. So that was kind of the last remaining and that had a big impact on the course.

And once they came down, my goodness, it it made the immediate hole so much better in terms of light and air and space and feel. But it actually, it made all the feel of the whole course so much better. And I never thought, and you touched on this earlier about the unintended consequences. I never thought that removing the plantation on the back of the fifth hole would make the view from the clubhouse.

so much better or removing the trees on the ninth would make the tea shot on 17 so much better because all of a sudden, you know, we're a small property, we're surrounded by houses, but all of a sudden by removing the trees, you open up the Tararua ranges, you open up Kapiti Island, you open up all these beautiful sand dunes and straight away the place felt more spacious. It lifted the ambience and it just felt better. And that was never the intention when I first started. And you know, that's something I've learned towards the end that...

Shane Derby (01:21:07.471)
You know, you know, funny enough, we we underwent a bunker renovation or restoration or restoration, whatever you want to call it in Royal Dublin. The winter just gone. And I suppose one of the unintended consequences, perhaps, are certainly unforeseen consequences in terms of from my perspective, were quite a flat site, but bigger bunkers, less bunkers. But actually, it almost feels like the

Leo (01:21:15.23)
about those unintended consequences in a good way.

Shane Derby (01:21:36.111)
it increases the scale of the place and actually makes it feel bigger, shall we say. But, you know, long views are to be embraced where one can in terms of that connectivity with, you know, between the clubhouse and the golf course and between the interrelationship and the connectivity between different holes and whatever else. I know specifically, you had mentioned to me that that's

the removal of that big standard trees had a significant effect on the 17th and, and, and to a greater or lesser degree. I mean, the one, I guess the one visual that has stayed with me since, since I last played, uh, Para Para Umo is the 13th with the, the Tararua's in the background. And, and, and, you know, it's funny you mentioned to your mind that the, the, the 17th was, I don't necessarily like the, the notion of a signature hole because you know,

it's a collection of 18 golf holes or 9 golf holes or however many but that's that that 13 does an extraordinary hole it it's it asks a lot of questions but it's just such a such a perfect setting for a golf hole with that backdrop.

Leo (01:23:02.158)
Yeah, I mean, that's one of the few holes that actually runs in a different direction. Most of them run up and down north -south, largely north -south, and that runs across the back of the property. But yeah, it heads towards the Tarawa Ranges. And, you know, I mean, they're not the Remarkables, they're not the Rockies, but they're a significant feature of the greater Capiti Coast. And now that's all opened up. It just makes a wonderful backdrop. And they sometimes...

You know, the things, the things you don't think about. So, so the 13th, the routing hasn't changed. The 13th is still what it's always been for the last 75 years, but it's just a better hole. Why is it a better hole? The average person doesn't know why it's a better hole. It just feels a better hole. And that's, you know, that's an ambience. And I think that's what has been created by just the removal of a lot of that clutter. So I'm personally, I'm more educated now on the importance of that. That wasn't necessarily why I set out to do.

Shane Derby (01:23:49.455)
Yeah, maybe you could speak about the importance of your team there in terms of the course maintenance course maintenance team. I mean, what's the size of team do you have? And, and, you know, you mentioned the OE experience that most Kiwis go on. I'm assuming that, that, that being a team member of Power of Parama actually opens up, you know, great opportunities for, for, for the guys, you know, to move on. And unfortunately, you know, you lose the talent, but you know, it's, it's, it's a,

I guess it's a conveyor belt to a certain degree in relation to much like yourself when you were a young man and had a plan and had a desire to further your skill set and your experiences.

Leo (01:24:41.198)
Yeah, I mean, hey, look, it's always sad when you feel well a valued staff member, you know, and, you know, some people are like, oh, Leo lost another one, you know, I mean, I've managed to bring a lot of a lot of good young turf managers through that have gone on to some good things as well. But, but yeah, I liken it no different to myself. I mean, when I was building my career and moving around the world, I mean, I was never in a place for more than four years, you know, I think I lived in, you know, five or six cities before I kind of come back to Paraparami. So hey,

team is everything. And like I said back at the start of the interview, I want my team to share my passion, to share the vision and to know that when they're coming through that gate every morning, they're coming somewhere special. And that's just, you know, that's constant reinforcement that they're on a special piece of property. You know, they're at the spiritual home in New Zealand golf, and they are living golf at its purest. So I've had some wonderful guys come through and continue to have wonderful guys come through as well. And

And I'm not sure if we're talking about it later or not, but one of the things I've struggled with most with the transition into the dual role of general manager and superintendent is trying to direct from an office is really, really difficult. I mean, I'm a guy, I mean, my dad was a builder, my dad was on the tools, lead from the front. I'm a guy that likes to lead from the front as well. And you want to be in the trenches, you want to go over the top with your team. And that's been.

quite difficult doing that from the office because green keeping is such an intuitive profession and you're constantly adjusting in the field to what you're seeing and what you're feeling at the time. So that has been something that's been extremely difficult, but you have to try and instill that into your eyes and ears out on the course through the team. So that's something I work really hard on.

Shane Derby (01:26:26.799)
You know, engendering that passion that you spoke about so eloquently, it's that contrast between, well, you're not just cutting grass, you're actually preparing the challenge for the day at the spiritual home of golf in New Zealand. And it's it's an honor and a privilege. And as you say, you're fleeting, you're fleetingly connected with this place. So just understand what it is and pass it on in a better

Leo (01:26:33.326)
and try and foster as much as I can.

Shane Derby (01:26:56.719)
in better condition and in a better state than when you found it.

Leo (01:27:11.918)
Yeah, so we started talking about rugby. I'll just inject some rugby talk back in. I mean, they talk about the All Blacks, you know, the All Blacks, you're just a caretaker for the jersey. All right. And it's all about the jersey. All right. It's not about you. It's about the jersey and you know, and I look at that in terms of, you know, relate that back to greenkeeping. I mean, you know, the club, the course, it's bigger than us. All right. It's bigger than us. We're there. We're custodians.

Shane Derby (01:27:39.243)
Interesting. I'm just wondering how you balance the dual demands of the general manager and course manager positions. I mean, that must be, it's not exactly, it's not exactly two sides of the same coin. I mean, I'm sure it pulls you in different directions and like, how do you balance that? The demands. I mean, it's, it's, I think probably the limit of, I can think of a couple of people that, that, that, that I'm aware of that do boat roles, but it's not a, it's not a common combo.

Leo (01:27:40.654)
for what will effectively be a short period of time in the total history of the club. But you want to leave the jersey in a better state than when you found it.

Shane Derby (01:28:08.399)
shall we say.

Leo (01:28:21.646)
No, and look, it's not a career path that I ever saw myself going down. I mean, I'm a passionate green keeper. You know, I'll still introduce myself as a superintendent of Parapanamia Beach Golf Club. I'm very proud of that. And we talked about Royal Melbourne having five superintendents now. I'm the fourth superintendent at Parapanamia Beach and I take that incredibly seriously. And I've never possibly selfishly, I've never wanted to relinquish that. So, Andy, the general manager title was not a

not a path I saw myself going, but nonetheless, it was an opportunity that was created. And I decided to accept it for a few different reasons. One, I thought it might give me some skills that laid it down the track in my career. If all of a sudden I fell out of love with what I was doing, I didn't want to be a person that was just sitting at a job for retirement, but hating every day that I'm coming through the gates. You know, as I've talked about, I love it.

Shane Derby (01:29:03.279)
I can't see you retiring Leo to be honest with you, but that's a different matter altogether.

Leo (01:29:19.982)
So I just thought, hey, if that was the case, and like I said, I've lived in, you know, five or six or seven different cities, we were bringing up a family and I didn't want to, there's not a Paraparabi beach down the road. So I wanted to give myself a little bit more longevity in the job and to take that on. And I also thought in accepting the role that I could have, you know, possibly even a greater influence to ensure that the business side of the golf club aligns with what we're doing out on the course and to almost kind of protect that by,

by securing that general manager's role. So yeah, it's not common and it's not for everyone. In fact, I've talked a number of green keepers out from actually doing that because in some ways, it might actually kill their career as a green keeper because that might be where their passion lies a little bit more than the general manager's job is a really hard job, Shane. You deal with the unsexy side of the business, all right? You...

you often get told what you're doing wrong, seldom get told what you're doing right. Whereas, know, green keeping is kind of the complete opposite. So, you know, hey, look, it's not for everyone, but it's something I've really enjoyed. You know, I love having a sense of influence in the golf club and helping steer the golf club through, you know, this part of this history.

Shane Derby (01:30:31.023)
your mind is a different type of personality suited best to the superposition and the GM position or I mean, obviously one is a little bit more front facing and customer facing and and and and I'm not saying requires a personality because everyone has a personality, but I think maybe outgoing and and your perhaps your stereotypical notion of.

a grainkeeper just in general is, you know, maybe I'm being completely, I mean, maybe it's a true, maybe it's, this is on me in terms of making this. I mean, I'm just thinking about some, not all grainkeepers, maybe, and look, not all people either. Some people just aren't people, people, people, if that makes any sense.

Leo (01:31:36.622)
Look, sometimes I think the mistake we make as an industry, talking about the green keeping industry, is that we almost hide in our sheds. We try and shy away from interactions with the membership. And I think the more that the ground staff can interact with the house staff, interact with your members, the easier it becomes to sell your messaging, to influence and to sell your vision and things like that. And I, yeah, I...

And it can be tough because when you come under pressure, your natural inclination is to protect and shy away or the opposite of get very aggressive and get up in the face. And yeah, I just think the more you're present, the better outcomes you will achieve for the things that you really want to achieve on the golf course.

Shane Derby (01:32:20.687)
You're the man with the plan Leo, what's the next plan? Be that on the golf course, be it for membership development on the clubhouse side, what's next?

Leo (01:32:46.99)
Well, that's the challenging thing. I mean, I was superintendent of Panipanape Beach at 31 years of age. I don't think I'm going to be a 35 year man. Maybe I am, I don't know. So I'm enjoying doing what I'm doing at the moment.

Shane Derby (01:32:50.441)
Sorry, you maybe misunderstood my question. What's the next plan for the golf course? Is there a strategic plan? I'm not asking you what your next fecking job is. That's for later on when we're not recording. Jesus, Leo. You wouldn't be a poker player.

Leo (01:33:10.542)
Fantastic.

Shane Derby (01:33:17.999)
Sorry. I was just I had to stop you there before you before you completely let the cat out of the bag. Nothing. Sorry. Not that there's a cat or a bag. You understand?

Leo (01:33:29.966)
Night or not?

Leo (01:33:36.14)
Yeah nah, I'm glad you did. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not.

Leo (01:33:47.982)
So in terms of the golf course, just to continue what we're doing, you know, almost, I've listened to one of your podcasts recently and I think they were talking about, God, or something around benevolent dictate, but benevolent by not doing things or something like that, or to do with the Addington or something, it was almost kind of like protect.

Shane Derby (01:34:01.679)
Yeah, no, we were talking about benevolent and to take the Taylor ships and benevolent neglect, obviously apropos. Yeah, that was that was in reference to more of faves at the Addington. It was the podcast with Mike De Vries. And then I was drawing, drawing the the parallel with benevolent dictatorship ships, as in Ryan notes and Matt Goggin from 7 by Beach.

Leo (01:34:19.782)
Benevolent neglect. Benevolent neglect.

Leo (01:34:28.59)
That was it.

Leo (01:34:38.904)
Yeah. So look, as a custodian, I mean, your job is to protect the course. We're going to do some little things. I mean, there's nothing major that really needs doing. I mean, there's two things on Russell's plan that were never developed. The 12th hole, he had this really fun, and the 12th hole is probably the least interesting hole in the whole golf course, path five down the boundary. And I think as Mike Clayton said, it's

possibly because it plays over the most least interesting piece of land. But Russell had this wonderful channel hole where you could play up the channel aggressively or you could play out to the side safely. And all that stuff's still there. It's probably more possible to do it today because you've got earth moving machinery where you could just pick a dune up and drop it where Russell couldn't do that. And I think the reason that hole was never developed was because it came too close to the 17th hole.

safety and a congestion issue over there. But you could pick a dune up and drop it onto the 12th Fairway today and you could create the space needed to turn that into a really cool Par 5. Now, I mean, I would love to build an original Russell Hole. I think that would be kind of pretty neat. In terms of the rest of the course, mowing lines, we continue to adjust mowing lines as we've just come off the back of a seven or eight year irrigation upgrade.

And as the grass can support short turf, we're increasing the mowing line, we're increasing the width of the playing corridors and taking the mowing lines out. We've joined some fairways up, we've joined the third and the fourth fairway up, we're about to join the 13th and the 15th fairway up. So that's a big one. We've nearly completed removing all the paths out of the line of sight. I've got maybe possibly one of those still to go.

Shane Derby (01:36:33.967)
You know, that concludes the particular conversation about specific conversation about Parapara, I'm just I've so many different places I need to get to, but I do need to get back to New Zealand. It's just it's so far away. It's just, you know, it's due the place justice and we will get on to an elevator pitch, which I'm hoping that you'll give us for both golf in New Zealand and indeed the land of the long white cloud itself. But.

Leo (01:36:35.47)
But just kind of consistent maintenance and protecting and where possible subtle enhancements is kind of the order of the day.

Shane Derby (01:37:04.271)
It's it's I guess it's it's it's more front of mind with with with golfers out there in relation to the TRE and TRE easy and Cape Kidnappers and you know what's happened over the last 20, 25 years. But it would be remiss of me not for for anybody, you know, not to have Palo Palomar Beach.

on their on their list of places to visit shall we say. Ran Morissette in the 147 custodians piece that he has on the website I think puts it unbelievably well when he says Palipalaiwmi beach is the best example of Kiwi golf culture where the expense of the game is within easy reach for all over the special rumpled land. Mercifully the task

That's

Leo (01:38:30.828)
Yeah, look, Rand's an incredibly learned guy. He's seen a lot of golf courses and that's probably a very succinct summation. And I do think it's sad if people come all the way down to New Zealand and play perhaps the brighter lights of a couple of these new courses that have been constructed in the last 20 years, but neglect going to classic architectural gems and courses that have played such a significant role in the development of the game here, such as Paraparami Beach.

Titteringy is another great one. No accident, Alistair McKenzie design up there and similar courses of that ilk, you know, Rotorua Golf Club, Arrowtown, which is, you know, it's like playing golf on the moon. It's just so wonderfully unique. And so I think, you know, it is sad when people come down and they took off some brighter lights and they miss that because it's something you're not going to play in other parts of the world.

Shane Derby (01:39:11.631)
Well, Palo Palomo is a shining light of, of, of, you know, both his history and the, the, the, the golf scene in, in, in New Zealand. For the benefit of my non -Kiwi listeners who will likely have heard of the Renaissance design courses that I mentioned, Corin Crenshaw and Julian Robertson's developments.

It would be remiss of me not to ask you to provide us with an elevator pitch for inbound golfers to New Zealand.

Leo (01:39:59.948)
Yeah, well, I think you just touched on it before, but I think it was Tom Doakes said it in 2019 or 20, that probably no country has developed more incredible golf than New Zealand in the last 20 years. There's been a huge amount of development down here from Cody Cliffs, more recently, Tareedi, I'm just working down the country here, Tiari, I've been to the South, I haven't played the North yet. You're down into Kinlock, Cape Kidnappers.

Shane Derby (01:40:15.759)
Wai raki!

Leo (01:40:29.242)
Jacks Point Hills. Yeah, Wairakei is again one of those more original golf courses. It's probably 50 odd years old here. Jacks Point, Millbrook, the hills. So there's been a lot of new courses that have been developed in the last, but New Zealand's a place, it's a small country, but it's got such a diverse range of golf. So it's got everything from seaside golf, cliff top golf, resort golf, and then some of the more rustic or charming.

courses like that have sheep grazing over them. And at the moment, Waverley, Tom, Tom, and Tom's recent confidential guide, he visited Waverley Golf Club because on the recommendation of a couple of his guys that had some downtime when they were building Tara Eady and discovered this little country golf course in the middle of nowhere. And it is seriously incredible golf. It was actually designed by Ernie Southerden, who is no accident when you kind of

read a little bit into his research. He immigrated from UK and he learned his trade at Rye Golf Club. So, you know, it's another kind of accident that he's put a decent design on the ground out here. So it's incredible to see this little course called Waverley that was just ranked as the 85th best golf course in Australasia, just coming out on a recent list. And I was in their clubhouse last year for a fundraiser that they had to...

they're trying to secure a better water source at the moment. Effectively, they're drawing water out of a swamp and it's quite impure and it's got a lot of bits and pieces in it. So they're trying to sink a new bore. Costs $120 ,000. They've got a membership of about 80, 85 people. And I went up there for a fundraiser and the president gets up in the middle of this packed clubhouse and announces how proud he was that they're now considered the 85th best golf course in the world. And,

It's incredible. I mean, they raised $50 ,000 that day. It was quite extraordinary for a small club. But I noticed at the moment, there's so many guests coming through New Zealand and on the recommendation of Tom, stopping in and playing Waverly. And I don't even think Waverly appreciates some of the visitors they've got passing through.

Shane Derby (01:42:30.191)
Well, we need to shout out two gentlemen, Balmett Bearcats, also known as Michael Wolf and Jeff Warren, who have just finished a 3000 kilometer circumnavigation of the North and South Island, including a couple of flights. I have been glued to their Twitter feeds. They seem to have had a great time. And actually, they have been very.

Leo (01:42:51.182)
I'll talk to you soon.

Shane Derby (01:42:57.871)
kind and effusive with their thanks to Clyde Johnson, who's an associate with the he's currently building the Cabot Highlands, the second course at Castle Stewart, open Scotland. But he actually has a book, I believe, of the the smaller country golf.

course options around New Zealand, which he was self published, which actually I'll stick a link up to his website. So I don't know if there's any copies left, but certainly if you were thinking of making a maybe not off the beaten track, but certainly maybe not quite the the the more known knowns, if you like, of of of Kiwi Golf from an international perspective. So we know that we know the high profile ones.

but I'll stick a link up there. Listen, I'm just interested to know. I'm obviously, the development doesn't appear to be abating in terms of additional development of golf courses in New Zealand. Glendew Station, which I believe is on the shores of Lake Wanaka. I believe construction may have begun last year and indeed I believe there's another course, Kyle Phillips course slated for Moriwai Downs up near Auckland somewhere. What can you tell us about those and...

I know probably John Derby is at least involved in one of those, if not two. I'm just wondering if there are any more other than the Glendew and Moriwai dance.

Leo (01:44:43.766)
Yeah, so John Darby, I mean, he's played a significant role in the development of the game as well, of developing golf facilities. I mean, he was behind Jacks Point, Clearwater. He was also involved, I think, in the initial stages of Tara Ede and perhaps even Tiara. So anyway, Glendu Bay is just near Wanaka, like an incredible site. It's on the edge of, I think, a World Heritage listed national park.

I think they've done a lot of the bulk earthworks and they're about to engage a shaper to do the finessing and actually, you know, to bring the magic to the property. So I think that's going to be pretty exciting. I look, I hope they get the right shaper, which I'm sure they will, and to do justice to that property. Kyle Phillips, yep, in Mirawai.

I mean, that's been a long time coming. They've gone through such a rigorous planning process. I think it's owned by Jonathan Liu. He's a member of Taree, but he was of Alibaba fame. I think he was the chief executive of Alibaba at one stage. He's going to develop and it's just purely going to be around the Gulf. It's at Muriwai, which is coastal, but it's not on the coast. It's up on the higher land.

mixture of sandy soil and more agricultural stuff. I know some of the guys involved in that, Steve Marsden, who's going to be the growing superintendent. He was behind Kinlock and he was a superintendent at Cape Kidnappers at one stage as well as Royal Sydney. So he's an incredibly competent guy and I think I have no doubt they're going to put down something pretty special on that side as well.

Shane Derby (01:46:13.391)
And anything else bubbling away or anything you talk about?

Shane Derby (01:46:28.847)
That's the one damn by Cranwell, is it?

Leo (01:46:31.79)
Yeah, I think there's lots bubbling away at the moment. There's another property that Turner McPherson are doing down in Queenstown, Hogan's Gully. That looks really, really impressive as well. That's just beside Arrowtown. It's a couple of kilometres. Close to Cromwell. It's near Arrowtown. It's in Arrowtown as well. So the one out Cromwell, I think is Gibson Valley, you might be referring to. I think they're doing a nine hole development out there. So Hogan's Gully, I've seen the land. It's like.

Shane Derby (01:46:55.343)
As we say over here, Leo, there's eating and drinking out. In other words, there's plenty of golf to be had in New Zealand. That's well worth it. And whatever people, if they're thinking of of of contemplating rowing an Australian trip into a New Zealand trip, you probably need about three months.

Leo (01:46:59.768)
It's like Arrowtown and I think they're going to do something quite similar to Arrowtown, but just possibly on a larger scale. So hey, there's some exciting stuff going on at the moment.

Leo (01:47:29.678)
Yeah, I think that's the mistake a lot of people make is that they come down, they see us on the map and they think we're a small country and they're going to get around it simply. We're a small country, but geographically it's tough driving. It's not like you've got expressways from one city to another. I mean, you're on, well, be it an Irishman, you'll probably know a little bit, you know, going onto country roads. So, you know, it might look an inch on the map, but it might take you four hours to drive it. And I think,

There's also, there's so much more than golf down here. So, you know, if you're coming on a trip and you think you're going to put, you know, seven courses into five days, you've probably missed so much other stuff. Like you've missed a bit of tramping. You know, you've missed food and wine. You've missed, you know, you've missed beaches. You've missed cycling. You've missed culture. Like there's so much more than just coming down for the golf. And, you know, instead of just making it a guys trip, you could make it a couples trip.

Shane Derby (01:48:19.663)
We're nearly at the gap. Final two questions. Bucket list courses. Loosely five, but there's some leeway here. Where are your bucket lists?

Leo (01:48:27.822)
and slip some golf in at the same time that you're slipping a great walk in as well. So, yeah.

Leo (01:48:46.35)
So I always say, I've played a lot of bad golf and a lot of great golf courses. So I've been very lucky. I've been able to extensively travel and tick off a lot of bucket course, a lot of bucket list courses. But say perhaps on that first trip when I went around the world with my girlfriend and my wife, I did take golf clubs on there. And I went to a number of courses and walked a number of courses, but...

I learned pretty fast after that trip that unless I'm playing it, I'm not really taking it in. I like seeing how the whole players with a five iron in my hand as opposed to just like walking. I don't have that ability to walk a course and appreciate it as much as when I'm playing with clubs. So just thinking about this question, a lot of the courses that I'd like to play are actually courses that I've already visited. So I've visited Pine Valley.

but the superintendent wouldn't let me take the clubs out of the car. So I spent four hours on the property walking around and I just couldn't get up. I mean, I've talked about Royal Melbourne and its grandeur. Pine Valley just looked absolutely incredible as well as being looking incredibly brutal as well. So I'd love to go back and play Pine Valley. Again, on that trip back in the early days, I remember going out to North Berwick and I would kind of go to these courses based on,

something I'd read and I remember North Berwick, I wanted to go out and I wanted to see the pit hole, the hole that was kind of behind the stone fence. And so I remember, you know, running out from the car park to have a look at the pit hole. And oh my goodness, I never realised at the same time I was running past the Redan and I was running past the Barutz. You know, I got out there and got my photo at the pit hole. So I'd love to go back to North Berwick and play North Berwick. I've played a number of open championship courses.

but there's still some that I've got left to tick. I'd love to play Lysol and St. Anne's, which again, I've walked, but I haven't played. And that was where Sir Bob Charles won his opening in 1963. And that looked incredibly impressive. I went to the opening in 2009 at Turnberry. I'd love to go back to Turnberry and play it. Even more so now that those changes have been made to incorporate the coast a lot better. Presswick, again, I've been to Presswick.

Leo (01:51:10.7)
never played it. I love to play press week. So, and Muirfield is another one I've kind of got to the gates, but never got inside. So, that's a few of them. Dorlock is another one right up north that I've walked with a golf course guide hole by hole, but I'd love to get back up there as well. So, that's a few kind of course. And of course, the Heathland courses, which we talked about around London.

Shane Derby (01:51:23.471)
Is this the cat in the bag that you're talking about earlier on? Sorry, I couldn't resist. And just for the record, I'm not I'm that's a complete fabrication from my perspective all the way along. I don't know anything. Anyway, I'm going to shut up. For fear of digging a f***ing hole for myself. Right. That's beautiful. It appears all roads lead back to...

Leo (01:51:38.138)
Am I being too greedy? Am I being too greedy now?

Shane Derby (01:51:52.407)
UK really and a bit in America. Any plans to actually action that particular flight back and play with the golf over here anytime soon?

Leo (01:52:20.014)
No, my next... I've kind of fallen in love with America. I've... Americans and purely through relationships that I've formed here in New Zealand with Americans coming out to our course. And I've probably visited America seven or eight times in the last kind of 15 years. And I'm due to go back there in April again to tick off a big bucket list item for me. So that's kind of been sucking up a whole lot of my resources, things like that, which has kind of prevented me from...

Shane Derby (01:52:37.071)
Well, rest assured, Leo, as and when you you make it back over here, I'd like to have you as my guest at Royal Dublin. And we'll we'll certainly point you in the right direction, not as if you don't know where to go when you come over here. So look at a final final question. Golf book recommendations. Obviously, if somebody was looking to augment their golfing library, what would you suggest? And.

Leo (01:52:49.838)
from getting back to the UK and Ireland.

Shane Derby (01:53:04.591)
Don't worry about whatever you, whether you're, if you're mentioning something that you've heard already, somebody mentioned, don't worry about that. That just reinforces the fact that somebody needs to go and buy the bloody book.

Leo (01:53:06.998)
Damn it.

Leo (01:53:30.19)
Yeah, I mean, I love collecting golf course books. I've got a good bookcase full of all the classics. One of my favourite ones, and I know it has been mentioned on your show before, but it's Jim Arthur's Practical Guide to Greenkeeping. I mean, it really encapsulates a lot of things that I talked about earlier in this podcast about keeping greenkeeping very, very simple. It's a very simple approach that he's adopted. That's something that I've certainly taken on in my role here.

It's just a wonderful book and it's very simple to read as the name probably suggests. So a big fan of that and that is a book that I've kind of read from cover to cover and go back and refer to it often. And the second book, and this is possibly a little bit self -indulgent, I kind of thought about this one, but it's a New Zealand book. It's written by Heather Kidd and it's titled My Life in Golf.

All right, now I have a chapter in the book, hence since, you know, I'm kind of talking about self -indulgence. But the thing I like about that book is it profiles people, ordinary people, ordinary people like myself and their relationship to golf. And that could be, you know, myself as a greenkeeper, could be Sir Bob Charles, you know, as 1963 British Open winner. There's another gentleman in Wellington that had cancer.

and he used golf as part of his recuperation. And he was judging the success of his therapy and recovery based on how many holes he could do. There was another gentleman in the book that lost his leg in a motorcycle accident. And he, I think he was a boxer and you know, his whole world came tumbling down, but he learned to play golf. And so it's a collection of different stories and inspiration and things like that. I just think it's a unique take and it's not.

Shane Derby (01:55:22.489)
For listeners that may want to purchase My Life in Golf, is it still available and how would they go about purchasing same?

Leo (01:55:28.078)
your typical golf book where it's just profiling, you know, the guy that won the 1963 New Zealand, British Open. So yeah, my life in golf here, the kid.

Leo (01:55:46.382)
Okay, I hope so. It's probably five or six years old, but check it out on Amazon or something like that. Surely it would be possible. But yeah, it's just a unique take and I think it's relatable, depending on your point of view.

Shane Derby (01:55:48.335)
Well, I've run out of questions Leo. All that is left is to say Kia Ora once again. I believe that's appropriate in this context in thanking you for sharing the Palipalumu story, giving us a slightly better steer on inbound golf in New Zealand and telling us all about your journey on the golfing roads of life. Go easy mate.