Can't Change the Past, We Can Only Charge Forward
===

[00:00:00] Joe White: All over the world. There are people thinking about and creating a future of live digital events and performances. 

[00:00:05] Jess Ryan: They're disparate innovators who are artists, tech, founders, non-profits and investors, and they need a place to gather and share ideas. That's what 

[00:00:13] Joe White: the guest 

gather 

[00:00:13] Jess Ryan: is all about. Now I'm just a theater creator who loves bringing people together around technology art and the internet.

[00:00:20] Jess Ryan: And 

[00:00:20] Joe White: I'm Joe, a tech and media startup bet with over 10 years of experience growing and 

[00:00:24] Jess Ryan: operating businesses. Thanks for getting together with them. Let's dig in

[00:00:39] Jess Ryan: oh, hydro. Oh, hello. We've had a busy day and I haven't seen you as much as I would like. Uh, so I wanted to ask you a question. Hit me. At a dinner last night, but I thought it was a great question. I was at dinner with a amazing woman named Lynn Feldman, who has a company called curate on purpose. And she helps curate, um, executive [00:01:00] stages for conferences.

[00:01:00] Jess Ryan: And she's so bad ass because. Her sort of perspective in the conference world is that it's boring as fuck. Not, not wrong, not wrong. And so she's like, sure, she's built this entire business out of being able to curate stages and help executives understand what is the story they have to tell. And what is the thing that we like all want to hear about and like how to ask questions, instead of just saying, like, I did this with my company and we checked these boxes and everyone pat me on the back, you know, that stuff.

[00:01:33] Joe White: Yeah, I closed questions and things like that. 

[00:01:35] Jess Ryan: Yeah, exactly. Um, and she's also like, she just programs like just fire stages. Like you get 15 minutes and you are off that stage. 

[00:01:47] Joe White: She come out with that hook and just like 

[00:01:48] Jess Ryan: dang people. Totally. Yeah. Um, we'll have to have her on the podcast at some point, because she's got a lot of wisdom and really good stuff to share, but in a surprise to no one, now that you know what she does, this is the question she [00:02:00] asked me about three quarters of the way through our dinner last night.

[00:02:03] Jess Ryan: What is a thing you are working on right now that you personally are just most excited for and why? 

[00:02:11] Joe White: Ooh, this one goes inward a little bit for me, but it comes back out and into our business in a fun way. Um, but I, for the longest time have like, I've been. This is going to sound so lame, but, um, I I've had, like, you know, ever since I was a kid, I could like pick things up pretty quickly, pretty easily.

[00:02:35] Joe White: And like in school, that was a really helpful talent and skill. And like, especially inside of a permission-based structure, like a school where it's like, here's how you succeed. Here's how you get praised. Here's how you do well, pretty, pretty like easy environment within which to succeed. Yeah. And then like my mid twenties, when that structure kind of went away and it was replaced by just like pure unfettered, capitalism and corporate nonsense.

[00:02:59] Joe White: [00:03:00] Had a, had a bit of a panic. I was like, what am I, who am I, what do I do? Um, cause across my life, it was, it was really fun, really easy to pick up new things and always be trying new things and like, Specialized right. I was, I didn't become an engineer. I don't know how to, to, I don't know why or a house for electrical.

[00:03:21] Joe White: Like I never had what I considered like hard skills that I could just be like, hi, this is what I do. Hire me. Hi. This is what I do. I have value high. This is what I do. Yeah. Um, and so I've always had that feeling like, okay, I can do a lot of random shit and I am, you know, smart enough and, uh, all this other stuff, but I never had like hard skills and I always felt like I needed or wanted them eventually.

[00:03:44] Joe White: I got over that feeling for the most part, but now I'm like, I have some questions about that later. Oh yeah. Hit me. And, but now I've, I've sort of, um, gone down a path of, okay. One of those hard skills that I've always wanted. Is, is something a bit [00:04:00] more, um, tangible in the programming world. I can do a little bit of sequel.

[00:04:04] Joe White: I can play around with some CSS and HTML, but it's all just like self-taught to solve a problem. Like, I don't actually know what I'm doing. And I, I w I love the idea of knowing what I'm doing and like the, the world of opportunities that, that opens up. And like, the big difference for me is that it's not me, like seeking out some skill to make me hireable or to, to give me value in the face of, of, I don't know, my parents or something like that.

[00:04:28] Joe White: It's because I'm like, this seems cool, and I want to do stuff with it. So I'm embarking on a, on a course to learn Python and then separately, but connected, really interested in the language solidity. Which is the one you use for a lot of these web three smart contracts. Um, which is that where it kind of ties a little bit back into our business where it's like, that's a world, you know, the web three Dow is world that I'm like, this is cool and there's fun stuff coming, and we're going to do fun stuff with it.

[00:04:56] Joe White: And the more I know, the more I can do personally, I think the [00:05:00] faster we can run at it and it just feels, and it seems really like fun and exciting. And so that whole journey from feeling deficient in my hard skills to getting over that deficiency, to now being able to like, enjoy wanting to achieve them with I'm sure underneath there, there's a little bit of still, like, I need that value.

[00:05:19] Joe White: I need that praise. That's where I'm at. I 

[00:05:24] Jess Ryan: have to unmask the lie here. So I just acted like, I didn't know you were learning Python and solidity that, but I'm glad I asked that question. Cause I didn't know that you were so excited about it and that that's why you were excited. Like. I love knowing that and that I have some quick, can I ask you some follow on questions?

[00:05:44] Jess Ryan: I can't ever get rid of my like host interviewer. 

[00:05:48] Joe White: It makes it more fun. Right? If we just left that, like that's boring. I just said a whole bunch of words. And let me just clarify some of that. 

[00:05:55] Jess Ryan: So I don't know. I don't, I think you might've told me this, but I don't remember his solidity related in some way to [00:06:00] Python.

[00:06:00] Jess Ryan: Like, do they have touch points with each other? They're 

[00:06:03] Joe White: both programming. 

[00:06:05] Jess Ryan: It's not like solidity has like some kind of base in Python that where you'll know. 

[00:06:10] Joe White: No, they're like, I think my interpretation again, is someone who doesn't have these hard skills is that there's commonalities between all of these object oriented programming languages.

[00:06:21] Joe White: Different. It's like, you know, romance languages. It's like, okay. They all got some stuff that kind of makes sense across all of them. But by knowing English, I do not know Spanish. If I knowing Spanish, I don't necessarily know French, but like you can suss some things out underneath it and learn them a little bit more easily because you have some of those fundamentals.

[00:06:37] Jess Ryan: I'm also positive that I asked you this exact question last week, and I don't remember the answer. What does object oriented language 

[00:06:45] Joe White: mean? Ooh, let's, let's go find a definition. Cause I don't think I can do it 

[00:06:48] Jess Ryan: justice. Oh, well maybe I didn't ask you this not makes 

[00:06:50] Joe White: me feel better. Um, I'm straight up Googling.

[00:06:53] Joe White: What is object oriented? 

[00:06:54] Jess Ryan: Right? Meanwhile, Chris Ashworth is at home listening, being like you noobs. [00:07:00] 

[00:07:00] Joe White: Yeah, we just need to get Chris back on here. Okay. Object oriented programming is a programming paradigm. I've been using the whole paradigm a lot recently, and I want to stop it, but it's a paradigm, uh, based on the concept of objects, which can contain data and code data in the form of fields and code in the form of procedures.

[00:07:18] Jess Ryan: This feels like that. When I learned that there was a word called a widget, that everyone knew what the definition of was. And I was like, what does that have to do with the actual word widget? And like, why does everyone know what this feels like? That 

[00:07:30] Joe White: exact same moment. It, it does. It 

[00:07:32] Jess Ryan: does feel like that.

[00:07:33] Jess Ryan: And this podcast is renamed. Just learns about stupid business shit. That's not actually that stupid, but, um, okay. Wait, I have some more questions. I did not know that you considered yourself a generalist. When I think about your career prior to meeting you, my perception is like you had all of these really high level roles at really big companies.

[00:07:58] Jess Ryan: And I don't know a lot of people like [00:08:00] that. I'm friends with, I like kind of got there and did that. How did you, how do you think that happened with this perception of yourself that you're a generalist and that you don't have a skill that's easily understandable. Cause in my brain I'm having a hard time computing.

[00:08:15] Jess Ryan: You know, corporate, well start saying like, Hey, come BR whatever you were advanced senior director of revenue effort. Yeah. That guy when you're actually kind of a generalist. 

[00:08:25] Joe White: Yeah. That is a good question. I think one part of it is sort of like, as you get more knowledgeable about anything, you start to realize how little you know about anything.

[00:08:37] Joe White: And I think my, my lens and my view has always been like, okay, I am good at Rena working inside of spreadsheets. I don't know something. That's like, that's, that's pretty tangible. Yeah. Um, but I can always look at someone else and be like, well, that person is. So much better. And there's like a whole class of people that I can now see, given where I've gotten to that are just like the world's a better than me.

[00:08:58] Joe White: You know, I feel [00:09:00] like sports is a good place for this, where it's like, you can be the absolute best, you know, soccer player on your high school team. And then you get to college and you're like, well, fuck, there's a lot of good people here. And then from college to, you know, whatever, like to the major league soccer, I'm going to be like, oh, damn, there's even more better people.

[00:09:16] Joe White: And like, I feel like wherever I am, I always see that next group and be like, okay, well I'm not that group. So I'm there for it. Not the best, not an expert, not this. And that's actually a big part of, you know, through therapy realizing like, oh, I don't need to, or want to be the best. A whole bunch of these things.

[00:09:32] Joe White: I actually quite like being a generalist and I like leveled with that. And so maybe it is unfair to just call myself a generalist. Yeah. 

[00:09:39] Jess Ryan: It's definitely unfair 

[00:09:40] Joe White: for sure. But I think that's why it's like, you know, one part imposter syndrome, one point. I'm not an expert in, in this type of business model or I'm not the best person at, um, Excel or this or that, but like, I can't get shit done.

[00:09:54] Joe White: So that that's good. I like that. I feel good and want to prioritize that over, knowing [00:10:00] every like minute detail about how, you know, to build a cool model in Excel, which I also like, 

[00:10:05] Jess Ryan: but that was a great answer to that quick. Lynne that was for you. I hope you're listening. 

[00:10:10] Joe White: Thank you. Thank you, Lynn, for that good question.

[00:10:12] Joe White: I feel like all of my conversations with Lynn have had a little piece of that. I was like, ah, no, this small talk bullshit. Let's get into it. That's 

[00:10:20] Jess Ryan: for sure. I love it. Um, all right, well, uh, now that we've had real good catch-up time, uh, I wanted to talk real quick before we dive into this week's episode about what's coming up on said podcast.

[00:10:37] Joe White: I'm so excited. Just doesn't tell me any of these things real time. 

[00:10:42] Jess Ryan: Um, I'm really excited for this month. So next week we are going to be chatting with Broadway's treasure, the incredible Kate Baldwin. And I'm so excited 

[00:10:57] Joe White: it in. Oh, 

[00:10:58] Jess Ryan: yeah. Now that I'm [00:11:00] editing the podcast in our interim with no podcast producer, we will definitely be having SFX.

[00:11:05] Joe White: I love, I love the idea of, of like Broadway's treasure. Like what a lovely thing to be described as I was like, 

[00:11:13] Jess Ryan: she's a treasure and we're friends with her and collaborators, and that has wild sometimes like 18 year old, Jess is looking from the outside at the situations we're in just going like big. And wide-eyed like, oh my God.

[00:11:26] Jess Ryan: We did it. We were here, we did it. So we're having K9 because she is directing the stage show of amplify 2022, which is this awesome concert that Meister music puts on every year. Um, they're an organization that supports and drives the work forward of women and non binary binary musicians in the musical theater.

[00:11:48] Jess Ryan: So super important organization that does incredible work. Uh, yeah. So Kate's directing the stage show and then I'm directing the broadcast part of it. So we collaborating together on it and, uh, the shows on [00:12:00] March 28th, we thought we'd have her on to talk about what it's been like to add, um, sort of a live digital directorship onto her list of skills.

[00:12:09] Jess Ryan: Cause you know, she's like a Tony nominated actress. She dove in head first to learning all this digital stuff. And it's been amazing to watch. 

[00:12:18] Joe White: I can't wait to talk to her and to, yeah. Ben for her kind of diving in headfirst to this whole new world that she, she clearly has like the thoughts, the ideas, the creativity to, to handle, but it's a whole new world that's exciting and scary.

[00:12:31] Joe White: Yeah. It's going to be 

[00:12:32] Jess Ryan: fun. I'm really looking forward to it. And then what else is on our, our map for this month, Joe? All right. 

[00:12:37] Joe White: So after Kate, which like nothing will ever top that episode is my, my guests having not even recorded it yet. Uh, we're getting back into live digital. One-on-one, we're keeping it going.

[00:12:48] Joe White: We're going to go forward by going back by looking back, giving back to the give back 

[00:12:53] Jess Ryan: concert. Whoa, that was a really good transition, Joe. 

[00:12:57] Joe White: Oh, I'm getting good. [00:13:00] Podcast transition expert, 

[00:13:02] Jess Ryan: not a generalist, not 

[00:13:04] Joe White: a generalist. Um, but as some of you may know on the show, I love just the concept of etymology.

[00:13:10] Joe White: Like where did things start? Where did they come from? How did they get to where they are? Uh, and so we're gonna, we're gonna flip the script a little bit. I'm going to be talking and asking questions to Jess about the give back concert. Cause I wasn't, I wasn't there. Me too, but can't change the past. We can only charge 

[00:13:27] Jess Ryan: forward.

[00:13:27] Jess Ryan: That's true. So next week to recap, Kate Baldwin on talking about amplify 2022. And if you want to join us for the amplify concert in the immersive virtual venue, we're building for digital audiences, you can actually register for free, uh, at Bitly slash TG. Dash amplify 2022. And we'll put that in the show notes for you as well.

[00:13:47] Jess Ryan: We'd love for you to join. There's going to be a ton of people from all around the world. Joining us in the virtual venue. We're going to have 300 people at Lopez on Rouge in New York city, and we're going to connect everybody together through the broadcast and [00:14:00] before and after the show, it's going to be 

[00:14:01] Joe White: awesome.

[00:14:02] Joe White: It's going to be amazing and I'm renting a pink tuxedo. 

[00:14:06] Jess Ryan: Ooh. Ah, and then of course, uh, the week after that back to live digital one-on-one like Joe said breaking down the give back concert, which was Broadway's first hybrid concert in which no one was talking about this stuff and we just. Figured everything out for ourselves.

[00:14:23] Jess Ryan: We figured we'd save you the work, the headache, but also the joy. You will never get the joy of getting to do it for the first time. So it was 

[00:14:30] Joe White: army. Yeah. I think of all those tears, you would have cried, trying to figure out problems that I before. It's beautiful tears. 

[00:14:37] Jess Ryan: And remind me to tell you about Jermaine coming in and crying at one of the give back concerts, the morning of the soundcheck.

[00:14:42] Jess Ryan: It's so good. Noting it down. All right. I think we've done all of the recapping and business we need to do so with that, thanks for getting together with us and let's get to it.[00:15:00] 

[00:15:01] Joe White: I was thinking this week, we could talk about an article that I saw recently and that we actually talked about in clubhouse. For those of you who joined us in club. Um, it's from, you know, the world's best publication, Broadway world.com, 

[00:15:15] Jess Ryan: indefatigable re poster of press releases exactly how they are put out with no 

[00:15:23] Joe White: changes.

[00:15:24] Joe White: I love it. They know what they are, they know what they're designed to be, and they do it. They do their job well, and I appreciate them. Cause I didn't find this article elsewhere. I found it here. Um, but this one headline New York public library for the performing arts launches, theater and technology fellowship.

[00:15:39] Joe White: And I saw no, I was just like, this is perfect. I don't even need to read the rest of it. Repost, reshare, every tumble. I wish tomboy still existed. I guess it does technically, but you know what I mean? 

[00:15:49] Jess Ryan: Does it feel like the world's ending? I'm like, I just am transported, but I'm like, how long did we. Talk about the intersection of technology and theater with no one [00:16:00] understanding it or caring.

[00:16:01] Jess Ryan: And now the public library is launching a theater and technology fellowship. I could cry. It's so exciting. 

[00:16:08] Joe White: It feels so exciting. I mean, just seeing the words, theater and technology, and I had line. Somewhere near the words, New York public library. I was like, what is this world amazing? I'm so happy that other people are, are speaking our language that are championing the same thing that are going to be in conversation with us on this podcast.

[00:16:31] Joe White: Hopefully it's just so great. And as well for it to be like a public institution. That was the other sort of layer of this that got me really excited. I was like, it's not some venture back thing. It's not some grift. It's, it's like a public good. It's the acknowledgement of the fact that this is important.

[00:16:50] Joe White: And it made me think about, you know, the UK and past conversations on this podcast about how, you know, they do just, just a little bit better of a job acknowledging the [00:17:00] fact that there is a sort of intangible social, good to the arts and to culture and to the feelings that come from that stuff that I feel like American culture.

[00:17:12] Joe White: It doesn't do the same way. It's a little bit too tethered to capitalism. How has art making money or puritanism where it's like, how is art making money?

[00:17:24] Joe White: And this feels like a conscious acknowledgement of, Hey, this is important. It's important for all these intangible unmeasurable reasons. And we're going to make it happen. I was like, Thank you York, New York public library. I appreciate you and your cool lion logo. 

[00:17:38] Jess Ryan: So, um, we of course have included the link to this article that we're chatting about in the show notes.

[00:17:43] Jess Ryan: So if you need to pause for a second and do a little reading, please feel free to take a read. It's like a three-minute rate. You'll get through it fast or those who want to just hang out with us and stay on the podcast. Can you give us the TLDR on this? 

[00:17:57] Joe White: I mean, as the headline alludes to the New York public [00:18:00] library for the performing arts has created a fellowship and is currently accepting applications through checking the date.

[00:18:08] Joe White: April 15th, 2022. Oh, you got time. Y'all yeah. So like you could actually hear this podcast, read this article and still apply for this thing. It's really awesome. But they have opened up this fellowship and it's, it's one of those great ones that are like, Hey, come in, we'll give you some money. Do some stuff, figure it out.

[00:18:25] Joe White: It doesn't have a ton of like, Hey, you absolutely need to export this or do that or change this. And I'm looking for like the topic sentence that will help me summarize this well over audio. So they're looking for a scholar to work on projects that examine technologies documented in their collections or using innovative technologies to study theater history.

[00:18:44] Joe White: So they're opening up their collections. They're going to, you know, maybe help make them more accessible in some way. Um, but it's a very open-ended fellowship, which I think is so cool about it. It's like here, we're giving you resources and we just want you to go do something with it. It feels a bit like a hackathon.[00:19:00] 

[00:19:00] Joe White: It's okay. Come and just crank on it. Just come up with something. Like anything is good. Let's just go forward. Progress is all we're looking for. Um, and so it's a four week residency and, oh, this is cool. I didn't notice this those four weeks not need to be contiguous. That doesn't really matter a ton, but like go do it, go do some cool stuff.

[00:19:19] Joe White: Um, but I love this idea of, of the New York public library acknowledging, Hey, we have this wealth of information and we think through the lens of technology, we can make it more accessible. We can make it, um, you know, something. Something, you know, blending what they have currently with. To make it more useful, more accessible, better in some way.

[00:19:42] Joe White: And I love that they have that vision and then like the conscious acknowledgement of like, Hey, we're not doing that already. And we don't know exactly how to do that. So we're just gonna throw a little time and money at it and see what happens. That's 

[00:19:52] Jess Ryan: bad ass. And for those of you, if you're listening and you have never been to the New York public library, it's kind of like our, our Mecca when you're in the arts, because it is the [00:20:00] only place where you can find a lot, like they have a crazy sheet music collection.

[00:20:05] Jess Ryan: Crazy book collection on theater, but probably most notoriously it is where you can go and watch the archive videos of a good amount of Broadway shows. So the unions have historically allowed for an archival recording to be made. Um, and it's like this crazy. Well, back when I moved to New York city, it was as 

[00:20:24] Joe White: crazy.

[00:20:25] Joe White: I was going to ask, like, can you describe the process? Cause I've, I've heard this story a little bit and it just. It seems insane. And like, you have to go through all these. I just like, I want to hear this story and I want everyone to know. 

[00:20:37] Jess Ryan: I want to say Emily, our friend, Emily McGill has been there very, very recently because she started just for fun, starting, starting to go watch shows.

[00:20:45] Jess Ryan: And I think they've vastly improved this, but she had to get a New York public library card. And I'm sure I'm going to miss things because this was so long ago. So you'd have the public library card and then you had to make the appointment. And you had to go through the research or the [00:21:00] security desk and I'd have an ID and all this stuff.

[00:21:02] Jess Ryan: Then you had to sign in and well, a long time ago you had to be a, and I'm making huge air quotes, a researcher like you had to, you couldn't just go watch for fun. You know, unquote. So like we all lied, I'm doing research, right? Because you got to sign in and say, why you're watching this video or whatever.

[00:21:26] Jess Ryan: And there was also some rules that I can't remember around. Cause like I I'm going to retell a particular time. I went there to watch a show. I was about to choreograph. And what they wanted to avoid at that time and were worried about was people stealing choreography. So I can't exactly remember, but you couldn't have like paper and pencil out and all that stuff.

[00:21:43] Jess Ryan: Like, so yeah, it was crazy. And so I had gone to watch the Robert bride groom, which is this bonkers musical from the seventies. I think. That like, literally when I read it, I'd never seen it. And I read it and I was like, what the fuck is this show? And [00:22:00] what do I do with this? This is like one of those shows where like Rozman lives with her parents and then she wanders away in the woods and she meets Jamie and Jamie's got half her face, his face covered with plum juice.

[00:22:12] Jess Ryan: You can't see who he is. And then Roslyn runs away with Jamie and then Jamie punches her and rapes her. And she's really in love with him. Songs. And then he falls asleep and she sings one of my favorite songs in the whole musical Canon theater, Canon to him while he's sleeping called sleepy man, as you might expect, it's good name.

[00:22:34] Jess Ryan: Yeah. And like, it's just, it's such a, and then there's a set mother named Salome and she's like making crazy. And nuts musicals. I was literally like, I have to watch this. I'm not going to steal a choreography. I'm not going to do it. I just don't understand. 

[00:22:47] Joe White: I just need a tethered quality also. I just want to like pause and compliment.

[00:22:52] Joe White: How the hell do you remember all those names and the plot and the plum juice? Like it wasn't Blackberry juice. It was plumbed you. I don't 

[00:22:57] Jess Ryan: actually think it might be Blackberry juice. Funny enough. [00:23:00] 

[00:23:00] Joe White: I didn't even read this 

[00:23:01] Jess Ryan: damn play. Well, you know, funny enough working on this show when I was choreographing, it was like, The most, um, like formative theatrical experiences I've ever had.

[00:23:10] Jess Ryan: Cause I got to work with slight side detour. Sorry. Y'all but um, every Quintin was cast as Salome, uh, and every Quintin co-founded the ridiculous theater company with Charles Ludlam, which has this very, very there's is a real, a company that's really important to me. And a lot of theater makers from the seventies, eighties, um, maybe a little bit into the nineties before they shut down.

[00:23:30] Jess Ryan: So this was like huge that he was in it. And then I played Rosalind and I choreographed it and. It's the only time I was ever cast as the romantic lead of a musical. Cause I'm like a character actress, you know what I mean? Um, but this director just believed in me and thought I would make a really interesting Rosamond and it's a beautiful show, even though it's weird and it does still have some of my favorite music in it ever.

[00:23:51] Jess Ryan: So it's just like one of those things I remember a lot about you're steeped in it. That makes sense. Stephen, the Blackberry juice. So steeped in the light, back to the New York public library, I've [00:24:00] gotten through, you know, the minority report security I've lied on the ledger, you know, to make them think that I'm not going to steal this choreography, 

[00:24:09] Joe White: which I did written the mining cart down into Greenville.

[00:24:13] Jess Ryan: Yes. Gotten all the side eyes from the librarians. So then you go into this like back room that I didn't know existed. And they take you to a cubicle, which I can only assume is like, do you remember microfiche? 

[00:24:27] Joe White: Oh, I remember microfiche. Do you want to say fish? I don't actually know how to pronounce it.

[00:24:31] Joe White: It's one of those where it's like niche and niche. And I was like, I love it. 

[00:24:35] Jess Ryan: Yeah. It's like a microfiche station. It's like your it's kind of my desk, but there's walls. So I can't see you, the musical, whatever someone's watching next to me, they don't want me to see the other shows 

[00:24:46] Joe White: that are researching that show.

[00:24:49] Jess Ryan: And they've, I don't remember if they took all your shit away or you had to check it. I don't remember, but you don't have stuff, you know, and you're sitting in an open space except for those two little cubicle walls, you [00:25:00] know, to watch this. With headphones. So then you start watching the show and if you're me watching the Robert bridegroom for the first time you get to that part, where it Jamie.

[00:25:11] Jess Ryan: Rosamond and then start singing love stolen from the cookie jar is the lyric that was this place. Exactly. And then I just started cackling out because I was, that was exactly your reaction. What the hell is. Hi, this musical. 

[00:25:28] Joe White: Are there other people down there with you? A hundred percent. So 

[00:25:30] Jess Ryan: then I'm getting shushed because you can't make noise, but I'm like, but Patti LuPone is on my screen.

[00:25:35] Jess Ryan: And like, this guy is punch. I think it was the Brady munch guy. It was punching this girl, but, and it was somehow okay. And turned into a musical comedy. I w it was overwhelming. And that was what it used to be like to go to the New York public library. So to take the leap now, right. And to look at them as one of the first institution.

[00:25:56] Jess Ryan: To really say this matters in America. I [00:26:00] love because that's such a giant cavern. 

[00:26:04] Joe White: This feels like one of those that we should, we should come back to in our, in our recap episode that we ended up doing on the podcast. I would love to know what, yeah. What comes of this? What has been shared, what has been changed?

[00:26:14] Joe White: Maybe we can go visit the New York public library together. We should and see what this updated process is like, because I enjoy imagining it being a green guts, like adventure. I doubt it's going to be like that anymore. Green guts. Oh right. You haven't seen Harry Potter. No. Green gods is the bank in the Harry Potter universe.

[00:26:34] Joe White: It's very complicated and secure, I guess. No. I don't know all this word magic that makes it hard to access the 

[00:26:40] Jess Ryan: vaults. Oh, okay. Um, what else got you thinking when you were reading about this? 

[00:26:46] Joe White: Well, so I was just so curious, like what could they actually do? Right. And like, I love to think in extremes of like, okay, what's the most extreme thing that you could do is like make every.

[00:26:57] Joe White: Piece of information in your archive available publicly [00:27:00] using digital technology in some way, I don't think that's going to happen for a myriad of reasons. I don't think I will ever understand as it relates to unions and whatever, all that stuff like, they're probably just not going to make all this publicly accessible tomorrow or on April 16th after this person starts, but they're going to do something.

[00:27:16] Joe White: And I, I'm curious, like, as someone who knows a bit more about this, this, this library and all of the information inside of it and the like complicated minutia of what is, and isn't allowed to be seen and consumed outside of this library for various union and legal related reasons, like, what do you think they're going to do?

[00:27:35] Joe White: Like, how are they going to make this better? 

[00:27:38] Jess Ryan: I might be inclined to go sideways to answer that. Cause I'm looking at another paragraph in this article that says the project that the person needs to work on and then present at the end of this residency can revolve around topics such as digital additions of play texts, research on the history of technical theater, scenic and lighting design, right?

[00:27:58] Jess Ryan: And the technology that is used [00:28:00] virtual reality performance or analysis of theatrical data documented in their collections. And the thing that. Jumping out to me about that is that in some ways, this is just feels like a huge gesture and definitive stamp that technology and theater matters. So that, like, maybe it's not that systems improve or something gets changed at the library, but that it's literally funding research on technology initiatives inside the theater.

[00:28:32] Jess Ryan: Something that everyone has done their darndest to pretend like it wasn't happening, you know? Yeah. Is. Maybe at the end of the day, just a huge like gesture with the weight of the New York public library behind it. And maybe that it is really the ongoing investment in research, which leads to innovation.

[00:28:52] Joe White: Oh, that's interesting. So like viewing this, which not, you said it's like, duh, of course that's all, it could be really with this little amount of time and this, [00:29:00] you know, relatively little amount of money compared to like, you know, how much a startup might get funded to do a similar project. Like this is, this is the opening sort of gambit.

[00:29:09] Joe White: It's the first shot. It's just, it's a step forward. And whatever it is will be foundational to whatever comes next. And it's the singular fact of the library saying this isn't. Like that opens up that gateway. Yeah. 

[00:29:22] Jess Ryan: You know? Ooh. And I just had a really like bizarre, but great thought. You know, how we talk about like an artwork with live digital, that, that broadcast isn't the only thing that matters.

[00:29:30] Jess Ryan: The audience experience is part of that whole live digital equation and allowing lots of space for the unknown to happen from live digital audiences, experiences at the broadcast is a big part of it. I think that kind of is at play here too, because think about not only the research that's going to be done in the presentation, but like the New York public library has an audience, so people are going to come to this project presentation and they're going to think about what's being presented.

[00:29:57] Jess Ryan: Right. And they're going to have their own ideas when they [00:30:00] walk out of the public library. Like the Domino's are, are really cool and crazy. Right. 

[00:30:07] Joe White: Whoever this human is that gets this fellowship should be documenting digitally their entire progress through what they are doing at the intersection of theater and technology for the New York public.

[00:30:19] Joe White: And then that becomes part of their final presentation, but maybe we get to consume it in little bits across the entire year that they're working on this. And it becomes like this meta analysis of like, I'm going to show you inside of the fellowship, but it's also part of the fellowship that I'm showing you inside of like, oh, that'd be so cool.

[00:30:35] Joe White: That feels very, um, you know, early log of just like showing the process, becoming the. Of like whatever you're 

[00:30:44] Jess Ryan: actually doing. Absolutely. Oh. Which is like our favorite thing in the entire world. I know I can't help, but think of course, like two people, I know, um, one of whom comes, you know, and chats with us quite frequently, Louisa lions and her work with film live musicals, which is just this enormous [00:31:00] database and body of academic research on filmed musicals.

[00:31:04] Jess Ryan: Like. Oh, my gosh, having some money and half with the library behind that work for her, I feel like would just be so cool. And then I think of another person I met right before COVID named. Yaakov, I believe, uh, who has a project? He's a data nerd. He's like in data mining. He's like he loves building data models and scraping, and like, he's so smart.

[00:31:28] Jess Ryan: And I think he worked for like a hedge fund or something, but he started the Broadway data project and I was meant to tell you, we should have him on the podcast for sure. Yaakov Bressler. And I think him to like, write like his work. Could inspire so much, especially when it's attached to New York public library, Amy Fogelman at Broadway codes.

[00:31:51] Jess Ryan: She's thinking of all these really cool people who have had to work at the fringes for a really long time. You know what I mean? And this [00:32:00] centers them in a 

[00:32:01] Joe White: way. All right. So I hope if you're listening to this, whoever's on the selection committee. Just that to call me that you are, uh, that you're prioritizing things that are outside of your comfort zone or that you don't understand.

[00:32:13] Jess Ryan: It makes me think of that artist we've been working with from Oregon Shakespeare festival Scarlet, who, you know, said she came to OSF to work on the innovation and strategy team to lead it because she wanted to center the. Right. And that's exactly what we're talking about. Centering the fringe. I'm excited to cheer the incredible people we know on as they apply for it and super excited to find out what other folks are around that have been doing this work.

[00:32:41] Jess Ryan: I hope they make this all public, uh, and we should have whomever gets it. And maybe all the candidates, some of the finalists on the. 

[00:32:49] Joe White: Let's let's get them all. I want at the very least to pitch them the idea of documenting what they're doing and releasing it in a more frequent bites across that year, because I think that would be really [00:33:00] cool.

[00:33:00] Joe White: It would be so cool. Maybe against whatever contract they end up signing, but doing it well, we'll figure that out and archi

[00:33:12] Joe White: and with Ana. Thanks for getting together with us. 

[00:33:16] Jess Ryan: This is the space for you, us and all y'all other anarchism. Get in that public library, cash money to learn technology. So share this with someone who should apply for the fellowship and then get in touch with us. 

Go 

[00:33:31] Joe White: do it. Do it. Now you have until April 15th, 2022.

[00:33:35] Jess Ryan: I'm Jess. 

[00:33:37] Joe White: And we'll see you back here next week. All right. I knew you were going to do that. I was waiting you out. Um,