00;00;03;08 - 00;00;04;12 Jess Ryan Welcome to the get together. 00;00;04;14 - 00;00;09;21 Joe White All over the world. There are people thinking about and creating a future of live digital events and performances. 00;00;09;22 - 00;00;16;29 Jess Ryan They're disparate innovators who are artists, tech founders, non-profits and investors. And they need a place to gather and share ideas. 00;00;17;08 - 00;00;19;01 Joe White That's what the get together is all about. 00;00;19;09 - 00;00;24;27 Jess Ryan I'm just a theater creator who loves bringing people together around technology, art and the Internet. 00;00;25;01 - 00;00;30;08 Joe White And I'm , a tech and media startup that with over ten years of experience growing and operating businesses. 00;00;30;08 - 00;00;40;18 Jess Ryan Thanks for getting together with us. Let's dig in. 00;00;43;23 - 00;00;45;13 Speaker 3 I think when you say it's. 00;00;47;04 - 00;00;48;00 Joe White What dynasty. 00;00;48;03 - 00;00;49;12 Jess Ryan Is it Wednesday in your world? 00;00;50;08 - 00;00;54;00 Joe White Is it Wednesday, the day this podcast comes out? No, definitely not new. 00;00;55;00 - 00;00;58;27 Jess Ryan Sweet, sweet Thursdays. How's everybody doing? How is this Wednesday for you, ? 00;00;59;03 - 00;01;15;15 Joe White Wednesday, Wednesday, Wednesday. It's a good day. I had a whole chunk of time to just, like, let my brain sort of flow forward on a whole bunch of projects. Like, every once in a while, the sort of task switching that comes with having lots of meetings. You spend 30 minutes here. Hard shift to something. 00;01;15;15 - 00;01;15;27 Jess Ryan Else. 00;01;17;07 - 00;01;26;03 Joe White Is just draining and kind of exhausting. And the past two days we're pretty busy. We were bouncing all around, had some fun, in-person things. So it's nice to have. 00;01;26;03 - 00;01;28;13 Jess Ryan A little bit of a melody. Nice. How about. 00;01;28;13 - 00;01;28;22 Joe White You? 00;01;29;04 - 00;01;34;24 Jess Ryan Well, you know, I'm going on a taco boat tonight, so I don't know how anything could be any better. 00;01;34;29 - 00;01;35;24 Joe White Boat tacos. 00;01;35;24 - 00;01;52;06 Jess Ryan So tacos on the taco boat. This is a just a very fast aside for anyone who listens, who is a theater person. But I just I. So Kate Carrigan, amazing musical theater writer, recommended I read this book called Trust Exercise by Susan Choi. Have you read that? 00;01;52;10 - 00;01;52;28 Joe White No, I have not. 00;01;53;16 - 00;02;06;20 Jess Ryan It's a great book. It's about theater. Well, it's not about theater. It's about sexual assault and power and, like, craziness. But all in the context of theater. Like a high school theater department. That's all I can say about it. It's really, really good. 00;02;07;14 - 00;02;09;12 Joe White But it's a novel and it's nonfiction. 00;02;09;13 - 00;02;19;22 Jess Ryan Yeah, it's fiction. And it was, you know, like a big deal when it came out and all that stuff. I'm just, like, a little late to it. Never heard about it. Anyway, it kind of delves into. Have we ever talked about Meisner before? 00;02;20;10 - 00;02;23;25 Joe White Maybe it, like, feels familiar. It feels. 00;02;23;25 - 00;02;24;16 Jess Ryan Like a. 00;02;24;16 - 00;02;30;22 Joe White Path. We've walked down on this podcast before, but I couldn't repeat it back to you. So let's pretend I have no idea what it is. Because I have no idea. 00;02;31;02 - 00;02;41;07 Jess Ryan Repeating it back to you. You have blue eyes accurate. You have blue eyes still accurate. You have blue eyes. Cool. You have blue eyes. 00;02;41;12 - 00;02;42;05 Joe White As is Meisner. 00;02;42;05 - 00;03;04;19 Jess Ryan Yes. So Meisner is this fucking mother fucking training mack like method that I think I had two full years of in college and it starts with just having to like sit like we are making this podcast, look at each other and you observe something about the other person and you say it and they scream it back. You have to respond back to me. 00;03;04;29 - 00;03;18;22 Jess Ryan And it's all about like having honesty and not and like really seeing your blue eyes. If that's the thing I noticed and you hearing that you have blue eyes and telling me you have blue eyes, which like sounds cute and it is like torture. 00;03;19;04 - 00;03;19;24 Joe White It sounds really. 00;03;20;04 - 00;03;41;16 Jess Ryan Torturous training system and it then moves into like trying to break people down and a lot of crying just, oh God, it's so abusive in my opinion. And very frequently the theater instructors who love Meisner are men and they are can be abusive and they're wielding and. 00;03;41;27 - 00;03;45;21 Joe White Also libertarian ends and fans of Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand. 00;03;45;21 - 00;03;48;16 Jess Ryan Generally like Atlas Shrugged. Well, anyway. 00;03;48;18 - 00;03;49;27 Joe White You in the White Power Burros. 00;03;49;27 - 00;04;19;04 Jess Ryan Yeah, that's us anyway, trust. Trust exercises sort of like really examines that those power structures that are embedded in like theater communities, young theater communities in a way that just was, like, really upsetting, but like, really true and really reflective of my experience and I'm sure other people that are listening. And then I just finished it two nights ago and then last night I watched the latest episode of Buried, which also uses Meisner as the bit for the whole episode. 00;04;19;12 - 00;04;30;03 Jess Ryan And there's like a fucking interrogation, like the guy uses Meisner, and I was like, I feel so justified in such a foolish, ridiculous training mechanism. 00;04;30;07 - 00;04;32;06 Joe White To see like it inside of. 00;04;32;06 - 00;04;32;15 Jess Ryan Oh my. 00;04;32;15 - 00;04;32;27 Joe White God. 00;04;33;12 - 00;04;37;27 Jess Ryan I just nearly lost it. So that's my little wander into theater world for a second. It's great. 00;04;38;00 - 00;04;58;03 Joe White That's really fun. And it Meisner does feel like psychological torture like it really like feels a little bit like some of that stuff I was reading about in the Michael Pollan book about how to change your mind. It's like, oh, like pathways that we have, you know, the sort of taking the easiest route just mentally to like lessen the load, the cognitive load for daily existence. 00;04;58;03 - 00;05;09;20 Joe White Yeah. And it feels like Meisner like does similar work of like breaking down those pathways. It's like it doesn't allow you to just be like, oh, you don't get to say thanks, bye. It's like, no, we're like going that we're going to break into one. Whatever's happening in your brain right now. 00;05;09;21 - 00;05;10;21 Jess Ryan Yeah, it's I think what I. 00;05;10;21 - 00;05;11;18 Joe White Like more so. 00;05;11;25 - 00;05;31;20 Jess Ryan Yeah. I think what I have mentioned in here that is exactly what you're talking about is like at some point when you get into years, two or three, whatever, fucking five days a week, 2 hours a day, I dreaded Meisner, I dreaded it. And I'm not saying it didn't make me a better actor who has has more accessible emotions. 00;05;31;20 - 00;05;32;03 Joe White But at what. 00;05;32;03 - 00;06;09;23 Jess Ryan Cost but at a great fucking cost. And one of the exercises you get to a bunch of variations on is choose a high stakes circumstance for yourself and and choose a physical expression that you have to perform while under those high stakes. So what I think I've mentioned here is like mine, I just I will never forget I made myself write a suicide note with my left hand because I'm right handed so that the my physical thing was having to try to write, get my left hand in a moment where as an actor, I had decided my high stakes were I'm leaving, I've decided to kill myself and I'm leaving a note for everyone. 00;06;09;23 - 00;06;20;07 Jess Ryan And I can't write it because it's with my left hand. And I just all I remember is like fucking bawling because the physically, if you do it right and you don't cheat, you don't be a wimp. Wow. 00;06;20;20 - 00;06;24;12 Joe White Now you're embodying this and you're like, I suffered this. And everyone else said to. 00;06;24;22 - 00;06;36;28 Jess Ryan The physical impediment actually breaks down all those pathways because you get more focused on like the physical, trying to overcome the physical. You know, people would do set ups like whatever, fuck off, you know what I mean? 00;06;36;28 - 00;06;48;06 Joe White But I like here's yours is like it's both packed out like it's a reality, right? That like using your opposite hand is hard for many, many people. But yeah, it's not the trait. Like, I'm going to do jumping jacks until I pass out. 00;06;48;08 - 00;06;49;18 Jess Ryan Yeah. 00;06;49;18 - 00;06;51;00 Joe White It's like you thought one layer deeper. 00;06;51;03 - 00;07;13;16 Jess Ryan Yeah. Well, so, yeah, that's all to say. 20 years after Meisner. Not quite, but almost 20 years later, I got to read Trust Exercise and then watch that episode of Barry and was like, my middle fingers feel vindicated. I am so glad I'm not the only person or my class is not the only group of humans in the world that think this is incredibly just. 00;07;13;28 - 00;07;17;11 Jess Ryan I don't have the words for it. Training method for actors to distill. 00;07;17;12 - 00;07;19;14 Joe White Is it like is messy right now. 00;07;20;19 - 00;07;21;19 Jess Ryan I don't know what they're thinking. 00;07;21;19 - 00;07;22;28 Joe White Breaking young minds. 00;07;22;28 - 00;07;42;07 Jess Ryan It depends on whoever the teacher is. Right if someone was my genius as trained in and Meisner and you know we had a teacher who was like trained in biomechanics, which is like a super physical Russian method of actor training. And I trained in Suzuki and viewpoints as a method, so it just depends on your teacher and whatnot. 00;07;42;07 - 00;07;44;10 Joe White And then I hope I never have to do that. 00;07;44;21 - 00;07;46;02 Jess Ryan What you just did. And you know. 00;07;46;06 - 00;07;48;16 Joe White That didn't count. It wasn't 2 hours a day. 00;07;48;21 - 00;07;57;16 Jess Ryan What I love, I hope you watch that episode of Barry because you literally did the same thing. Henry Winkler It was so good. All right. 00;07;58;18 - 00;08;00;16 Joe White I'm going to start, Barry, just to catch up to this. 00;08;00;16 - 00;08;04;25 Jess Ryan Oh, so it's such a good show anyway. So. All right. 00;08;05;08 - 00;08;07;06 Joe White Pro tip, hot take, go watch Barry. 00;08;07;25 - 00;08;14;09 Jess Ryan It's so silly and wonderful. You know, today this has zero to do with Meisner, but I will. 00;08;14;09 - 00;08;14;18 Joe White Connect. 00;08;14;18 - 00;08;45;18 Jess Ryan It. Yeah. Somehow I'm sure I was. I've been thinking a bit and I have some questions for you that I haven't gotten a chance to ask you yet around. I've been thinking a lot about how we are discovering by listening and by getting to be in spaces, particularly in the event professionals world. We're starting to discover, right, that we know the big why for what we do, which is, as you know, if you listen to this, open the doors to, you know, more committed, passionate communities of people for your events. 00;08;45;18 - 00;09;13;12 Jess Ryan Experience says and let them go wild and and and that is that is a new line of revenue that is deepening connections all the things we always say right that we know the big way of what we do. I think what we've really discovered across the last six months or so is that we sit when you just when you start really boiling down to business objectives, we kind of sit in this interesting place between events and marketing as a live digital company and what we do with live digital, right? 00;09;13;12 - 00;09;43;19 Jess Ryan We, we do execute events the digital side of an event. But the way we designed the experience once you follow that line to us informs feeds the marketing that comes afterwards, right? And then there's this third little circle which kind of gets us around to a Venn diagram, which conveniently is our logo of community building, which we've really been immersed in with on a particular project we're working on right now. 00;09;44;09 - 00;10;05;03 Jess Ryan And that sort of community management world. So now we've got like we're, we're part events, we're part of the marketing site, you know, machine, and we're part of the community building machine. And we sit right in the middle of it. And so I just kind of wanted to talk about that today. And like I said, I have a couple of random questions for you about things you've said that I think are really interesting, and that frame. 00;10;05;06 - 00;10;16;14 Joe White Is my favorite framework for an episode is just as questions for . responds off the cuff and hopefully it's okay, completely and utterly unprepared. This is in the best way. 00;10;16;14 - 00;10;22;15 Jess Ryan It feels like. Sweet. Oh yeah, I forgot. You don't love that. But it's what covers being having to come up with stuff on this. 00;10;22;15 - 00;10;25;06 Joe White Oh yeah. I'm getting better. It's good training. This is my Meisner. 00;10;25;06 - 00;10;35;19 Jess Ryan I'm good at it. Yeah. I was just going to say it's sweet revenge for the fact that, like, that's what I do every time I get on a stage or get interviewed for anything. And you don't do as much of that, so I'm giving it back to you. 00;10;35;26 - 00;10;38;27 Joe White But I'll take a nice, safe environment that we're in right now. 00;10;38;27 - 00;10;39;07 Jess Ryan So you. 00;10;39;07 - 00;10;40;03 Joe White Think so? 00;10;40;03 - 00;10;53;27 Jess Ryan We think it's a trap. It's it's going to trap the whole time leading to this minute. So I'll leave you. You want to start with the first question or do you want to talk? This is not we can I'll cut this or do you want to talk about the that sort of been a little more. 00;10;53;28 - 00;11;02;00 Joe White Yeah let's talk about the vent a little bit more because one of the things that as you're just describing it and making shapes with your hands that are dear listeners. 00;11;02;00 - 00;11;06;07 Jess Ryan Can't spit out my club soda. They were bad shapes. In case your gear. 00;11;06;14 - 00;11;08;04 Joe White Gets a bad shape. All shapes. 00;11;08;04 - 00;11;13;10 Jess Ryan Are not a circle, which is what I was describing. 00;11;13;10 - 00;11;26;18 Joe White Because I totally agree. Like those are the three spheres within which we are working and one is like sort of by design, right? We're like digital. That's what we want to be. Do we want to be designing these cool experiences to bring people together on the Internet and expand access like hell? 00;11;26;18 - 00;11;27;05 Jess Ryan Yeah. Mm hmm. 00;11;27;20 - 00;11;58;18 Joe White The marketing element, I think, is like one part just based on the need, right? Like people need this. It's new enough, it's unproven in many ways. And marketing is closely connected to sales, and sales is closely connected to revenue. And revenue is what makes the world go round. So it's like, oh, like we're doing a whole bunch. We're connected often to marketing, both on the front side of things that we're doing right, helping get people to the thing that we're creating in a live digital world, and then marketing more generally after and like all the data points that come out of it. 00;11;58;21 - 00;12;20;08 Jess Ryan And also I think someone at the reason I even brought that up was someone at the Hoppin event said I think it was Daphne, like, stop thinking about like what we do. She wasn't talking about us, but stop thinking about what you do as having to come wholly from an events budget. This is actually partially going to come from your marketing budget because you're creating video content that will be used in marketing. 00;12;20;08 - 00;12;23;09 Jess Ryan And like all those people, that's what got me thinking about it the first time. Yeah. 00;12;23;18 - 00;12;24;03 Joe White For sure. 00;12;24;03 - 00;12;43;10 Jess Ryan We are executing what the event team needs done, but we are creating and providing what the marketing team needs to take away, which is why those budgets can get split. So like even if we're not doing that marketing in the future, we still sit in the middle of all of this, right? In a way that doesn't really exist with a lot of stuff where it's not. 00;12;43;17 - 00;13;01;29 Jess Ryan We do events, we work with the event team. Right at the point that Daphne was making that like, I think I didn't realize as we sit smack, even in the future when everything's in-house, we as the people who make the live digital thing are part team event and part team marketing. Does that make sense? 00;13;02;02 - 00;13;18;23 Joe White Yes, I think like maybe we'll get into some specifics that will help sort of tease out this line and what is and isn't in either of those worlds. I guess the thought just being that like, yeah, things are going to continue to change as they have for the past three months, for the past every three months, for the past two. 00;13;18;29 - 00;13;20;00 Jess Ryan Years or whatever. 00;13;20;19 - 00;13;50;26 Joe White Yeah, lots of changing always. And in that last sphere, the community building, which is like it was always inherent to live, digital and marketing for being honest. But I feel like we've taken explicit interest in yeah, it's like actually we want to do more of that. We think that's important to all the other work that we're doing to to think about how communities are cultivated, both on the Internet and in-person beyond, outside of and inclusive of live digital experiences and events. 00;13;51;04 - 00;14;05;03 Joe White And it's not just a one off thing. We've been saying that forever and right that that feels so intrinsically connected to the concept of community. I'm like, okay, these people continue to come back, they start interacting with each other. Like those are sort of fundamental elements of community. 00;14;05;09 - 00;14;26;15 Jess Ryan It is interesting that commit because I have been thinking for a while since the Hoppin event about that place that we sit in between team marketing and team events because I just didn't understand that about budgets, right? And then I heard her say that and I was like, Oh, interesting. Like, that's really interesting. We split like we serve both, both lords, you know, of our clients. 00;14;27;13 - 00;15;03;00 Jess Ryan But then this community building piece has started to emerge on top of it. Or in addition to I guess that I have found really interesting, I don't think it applies in the same way I've been thinking about like events and marketing because a lot of companies don't have a explicit community building budget, you know, so like, but I don't think it matters for the sake of just chatting more about what it means to be executing events, but also be creating marketing through those events just inherently because we're doing it on a video screen and to your what you just said, you know, building a community through that work. 00;15;03;08 - 00;15;15;26 Joe White Yeah, I wonder too. So like when I'm thinking about marketing teams now and I actually traditionally think of events teams as being inside of marketing teams. So like, so Daphne's point where it's going to attribute this adapting. 00;15;15;26 - 00;15;19;24 Jess Ryan Yeah, seems like a thing from the vendor. Our friend's founder. From the vendor. Yeah. She's amazing. 00;15;19;25 - 00;15;37;09 Joe White Super smart. Yeah. That's why I'm like, sure well said that she's really smart. It's like I can I see and I understand respect the budgets as being separate but that like events is often a part of a marketing team. It's a way to acquire new customers, which is kind of where I want to go with this. It's like community is a way that we are talking about. 00;15;37;09 - 00;15;52;02 Joe White It, I think has traditionally been captured by the concept of customer or audience or something like that. No customer acquisition costs like, right, we're trying to get this person to subscribe to our product or to buy our bed or to whatever all the other direct to consumer nonsense that exists right now. 00;15;52;12 - 00;15;54;29 Jess Ryan I really had a second where I was like, Are we saying beds now? 00;15;55;07 - 00;15;56;21 Joe White Now my brand is on to Casper. 00;15;56;22 - 00;15;58;24 Jess Ryan Yeah, totally. I got it. It just took me a minute. 00;16;01;19 - 00;16;15;16 Joe White And like those people did kind of maybe by accident, maybe on purpose. Let's talk to the marketing team at Casper. Became a community, you know, especially the early versions of each of those products like Casper, people who own Casper, like I own a Casper. It's this new cool thing. 00;16;15;16 - 00;16;15;26 Jess Ryan Yeah. 00;16;16;04 - 00;16;33;28 Joe White They send it to you, it's cheaper. It's really comfy. Oh, my God, it's so comfy. Have you ever had a more comfy experience? They became more cultish and like that. It self became a community. But at the time I don't think Casper was thinking We want to build a community. Yeah, they're thinking we want to like get some people to buy some mattresses. 00;16;33;28 - 00;16;51;26 Joe White Yeah. And to talk about them on the internet. Yeah. And to become like a marketing channel just through word of mouth. And so for like us to start thinking about that shift of like, oh, it's no longer just customers like every brand, every organization can think about it through the lens of community, and they're already like kind of there. 00;16;52;19 - 00;17;07;12 Joe White But they can go, they can get somewhere different and some are further. Yeah. And I think specifically through the lens of life digital and the idea of bringing that community together. Yeah, because that becomes the big difference is the Casper ideas like those are individual people in isolation raving about their stupid mattresses. 00;17;07;15 - 00;17;09;11 Jess Ryan That's all aggregated by a hashtag. 00;17;09;12 - 00;17;32;22 Joe White Yeah, exactly. So it's a lot of isolation on the Internet. That's, that's, yeah. Brought together in some aggregated way by a platform or something and, and so the like. The shift from customer to community I think comes at least partially when you're bringing those people together. This is where my Casper Mattresses example falls apart, because I don't think Casper master owners care to commune. 00;17;32;27 - 00;17;33;07 Jess Ryan Yeah. 00;17;33;20 - 00;17;34;27 Joe White But that's okay. We'll leave them alone. 00;17;34;27 - 00;17;40;06 Jess Ryan I really love going to the theater together. Casper Mattress Night at Phantom Opera. 00;17;40;26 - 00;17;48;09 Joe White And when I got that really, really funny, if they like, they made like a, you know, the seat cushions that like old men bring to stadiums to like sit on or. 00;17;48;09 - 00;17;51;27 Jess Ryan Girl Scout we made sit upon sit or camping. Oh, my God, what. 00;17;51;27 - 00;17;54;11 Joe White A wonderful term. You never heard that? No. 00;17;54;13 - 00;17;59;17 Jess Ryan Oh, it's like you earned a badge for it. So that happens. He was newspaper with fabric on each side and we made them. 00;17;59;23 - 00;18;05;01 Joe White I love that. Yeah, I love that they're Casper says making said upon and they have an event where all these people go. 00;18;05;02 - 00;18;09;14 Jess Ryan I also take back see it's Casper night at the musical Once Upon a Mattress. 00;18;09;27 - 00;18;12;28 Joe White Got it. Nailing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We should do marketing. 00;18;13;16 - 00;18;33;20 Jess Ryan Yeah. Okay. So actually let me ask a question so we can follow this trail because I actually think this rolls into all of that. So we, we, we, we were just doing live digital, right? Like, oh, we're going to do live digital. We know all these big things. And then we were like, Oh shit, we're making events, you know, two years ago or whatever. 00;18;33;20 - 00;18;52;25 Jess Ryan We're doing like one night events. But as you said earlier, we were always trying to encourage people. This is a this is a lifetime value of a customer thing, like do it more than once. But we didn't have like great framework other than like we're smart trust us, which is like not the most advisable business practice. It worked a little bit because that's why people go. 00;18;52;25 - 00;18;55;28 Joe White To business school is basically that like, I'm smart, trust me, why. 00;18;55;28 - 00;18;57;28 Jess Ryan Publicly traded companies launch without a product. 00;18;58;25 - 00;19;01;11 Joe White Or a specific company? You have in mind that you want to. 00;19;01;11 - 00;19;06;01 Jess Ryan Blow up on this podcast. So just let's thinking about it. Since it came up yesterday to their audience. 00;19;06;01 - 00;19;11;26 Joe White Send in your favorite publicly traded company that launched and was monetized without a product. 00;19;11;27 - 00;19;34;19 Jess Ryan They exist so sad when we find out there's like everyone writes end okay anyway we find out we're event we're doing events right and they're live digital and this might not actually be relevant to my question. I might have led us astray, but something I've been wanting to ask you is, you know how you of course, you know, you frequently say like it's like what we're doing is a lot like the early days of social media for sure. 00;19;34;19 - 00;20;00;23 Jess Ryan So in this event, marketing event is one circle, marketing is the other, and they kind of blend over and we are the middle of it world. I was thinking about like in our world it used to be for a customer, a random person in the universe finds a brand like brand is engaged by that brand on social media. 00;20;01;29 - 00;20;13;14 Jess Ryan Then you want to move them to an email, you want to get their email. That's like right next step from social media platform where you don't own your customer. Maybe there's some like little nitty gritty stuff in between. 00;20;13;14 - 00;20;17;08 Joe White I'm like, Yeah, you know, maybe like a purchase in between and then that, yeah, that's connected that way. 00;20;17;08 - 00;21;01;04 Jess Ryan But just like how you're engaging that person specifically, like social media follower email. So new subscriber or email, subscriber, customer, you know, audience, whatever it is. And so like in our world now, there's like a new step in between that that I think is really interesting. You have a social media person, you have an email subscriber, then they can come to an event, digital events like Smithsonian on a repeating basis, and you're doing double work in that that step we've inserted, which is you're driving revenue from them and keeping them engaged at a deeper level than in the previous, you know, steps down that we just discussed an email on a social media. 00;21;01;14 - 00;21;19;24 Jess Ryan So it makes a really nice funnel and you start earning money earlier, right? In the best cases, it's not always true and it's not always how people use this. But like and so my question is, what was social media a new step in between back when it sort of emerged and everybody was like, the fuck is this? And what do I do with it? 00;21;19;24 - 00;21;47;13 Jess Ryan And I remember I would like I actually was remembering today with pretty much skin care, which is this incredible plant based diabetic skin line, skin care line that I used to work for all the time and still sort of like help and advice. I remember in 2008, we got a social media agency and we like being 10-K and really I don't even fucking know what you're doing and I think maybe you're not even doing anything and we don't know what's coming from the things you are doing for us is a bit like I remember that discussion. 00;21;47;22 - 00;21;54;06 Jess Ryan So yeah, that's all to say. Do you, do you have a feeling for what that new step was between? 00;21;55;01 - 00;22;00;19 Joe White Yes. I don't know if I would categorized as step, but maybe we'll figure out what is the stepping of it. 00;22;01;19 - 00;22;02;00 Jess Ryan And. 00;22;03;21 - 00;22;26;11 Joe White So I think about like, you know, we had Web 1.0, Web 2.0, now we're into Web 3.0. Yeah. I don't know why I put the point oh on there. Nobody does that web one, two, three. Social media represented the, you know, shift from web 1 to 2. And specifically like the networked effect platforming, audience attention, capturing, social media thing. 00;22;26;28 - 00;22;49;29 Joe White So it's like people coming to a singular place to exist on the Internet, a la a Facebook or an Instagram, and brands and organizations and content makers and creators using those platforms and those network effects to capture the attention and get their stuff in front of those people so they can web 1.0. It's like me literally going to our website, so it's like. 00;22;49;29 - 00;22;51;29 Jess Ryan Website buyer like yeah, in between. Yeah. 00;22;51;29 - 00;23;07;16 Joe White It's like I have some preconceived notion of, of a brand or of an organization and I go to their website for a practical use case, right? And so like I already had that thought in my mind. I was already captured by that brand outside of the Internet. Right? I saw someone's Patagonia fleece and I was like, I need that. 00;23;08;04 - 00;23;15;26 Joe White And I was like, Where can I find that? I don't live near Patagonia, goes to the internet. Maybe I Google it right or I just go to Patagonia dot com. 00;23;16;14 - 00;23;17;28 Jess Ryan To do that. To do. 00;23;19;17 - 00;23;20;00 Joe White So. That was like. 00;23;20;01 - 00;23;21;09 Jess Ryan Was I supposed to laugh at you for that? 00;23;21;09 - 00;23;23;15 Joe White No, that was giving myself time to figure out where I want to. 00;23;23;15 - 00;23;23;25 Jess Ryan Go next. 00;23;25;17 - 00;23;31;26 Joe White So that that's like a really poor distillation of like how it how the Internet works before social media. 00;23;31;27 - 00;23;33;28 Jess Ryan Pretty par for the course on this podcast totally. 00;23;35;19 - 00;23;55;17 Joe White But like the idea of catching and capturing someone's attention on the Internet really only existed through the concept of like ads on search engines, like ads around the Internet where I was already consuming. I go to Yahoo because that's where I go. I go to AOL because that's where I go. And those were sort of just information hubs like right for news oriented. 00;23;55;22 - 00;24;08;12 Joe White Yep. Social media gave like this new opportunity for capturing people's attention. And like, I think very specifically about the invention of the newsfeed, which is like a Facebook specific thing and like 2008, maybe. 00;24;08;12 - 00;24;09;01 Jess Ryan It came out. 00;24;10;05 - 00;24;16;12 Joe White I was just like, Oh, I come to one place and there's just an infinite amount of content for me to consume. 00;24;16;12 - 00;24;18;16 Jess Ryan Connecting you to other people like other. 00;24;18;16 - 00;24;21;07 Joe White People, other brands, other things. 00;24;21;11 - 00;24;48;18 Jess Ryan And sorry, I'm just gonna pause hard for people whose brains work slow on this. Make me so, like, in that old world that we're talking about, you could connect with other people through, like, a message board, but the network effect that you're talking about, the sort of like underlying algorithm that started bringing people to you in a way that was like more atmospheric than the flat Web Message Board sort of situation is a thing that was new, right? 00;24;48;29 - 00;24;51;17 Jess Ryan Totally new. Okay. 00;24;51;17 - 00;25;07;19 Joe White And so yeah. So if you think about like, oh, I go to Yahoo.com or AOL dot com and like the there's a limit to the types of ways I can interact with other people, interact with brands. I really can only interact through the lens of what AOL or Yahoo! Wants me to see. Right? So it's going to be news things. 00;25;07;19 - 00;25;34;00 Joe White It's going to be their advertisements and ads around all around the place. Maybe there is some concept of branded content that at that time, i.e. like a story that was sponsored by Patagonia. Yeah. And I think that was particularly prevalent back then, but I think it happened a little bit, but it was like a super rigid and limited experience for how I would discover things or consume things and that like the news feed invention and that like sort of infinite scroll where all the things that I like could in theory. 00;25;34;00 - 00;25;34;23 Jess Ryan Be popping up. 00;25;35;02 - 00;25;56;27 Joe White And I can have that which I loved on AOL, but that's that which I also got from Patagonia when I went to their website directly. And so it's like all of a sudden the like the one place to come for everything that I want. Like all my favorite people are here, all my favorite brands are here. All the news and stories that I want to find or read about or discover are here first. 00;25;57;15 - 00;26;07;12 Joe White So I don't need to go anywhere else. All I have to do is go to Facebook, go to Facebook and I scroll forever. It ties into the whole, like, addictive. Yeah. Sort of product design thing. Yeah. That's for another time. 00;26;07;12 - 00;26;09;19 Jess Ryan Yep. 00;26;09;19 - 00;26;25;03 Joe White So I think that is like the big change, right? It's like the capturing of attention. So all of a sudden that paired with like really good like pixels and ad tracking around the internet and audience modeling of like who are these people and what do you want to put in front of them and how do you know what you want to put in front of them? 00;26;25;16 - 00;26;41;17 Joe White The famous example being like, you go to Zappos and look at a pair of shoes and then that ad travels around with you for the rest of your life. Yep, yep. Kind of that. But like, it got way better and Facebook like innovated so hard on this front. And like, that is why Facebook is so successful is because of their ad targeting model and then their self-serve ad targeting portal. 00;26;41;17 - 00;27;04;20 Joe White Yep. Now Facebook ads manager, if you haven't used it, is really good. Like it's really good for reaching of really, really hyper specific audience with a specific product and driving them to purchase it or convert in some way. So like that, capturing that shift in the way that people consume information on the Internet and then the ability to capture that audience through ads I think is like the big change there. 00;27;05;08 - 00;27;24;06 Joe White So instead of like, I mean, other forms of advertising are still valuable out of home television ads, things like that. But it became like the most efficient, best way next to like searching. Yeah. Which already has some intent behind it. You know, no one just like searches, random. Take that back. People go to Google and type in random things I. 00;27;24;11 - 00;27;25;12 Jess Ryan Them to. 00;27;26;02 - 00;27;52;22 Joe White But all of a sudden you just like were confronted with things to either purchase or consume without having sort them out. And that feels like the big difference. It's like all of a sudden there's just things in front of me and I've learned this new behavior of scrolling a feed forever, and I'm just going to expect that things will show up in front of me and they will be more and more relevant to my interest the more and more I consume or like or follow or comment, engage in some way. 00;27;53;16 - 00;28;11;27 Joe White And then all of a sudden I'm like building quote unquote relationships with brands or purchasing things or following their pages or watching their videos or anything like that. And that's where like content ecommerce concept that we've talked about all sudden comes into play and it's like, okay, people, human behavior on the Internet has changed. They want content, they go to feeds for content. 00;28;12;03 - 00;28;44;21 Joe White They just want to be entertained. They want to be distracted, they want to be happy. And so we have to make content. Red Bull explodes. It becomes huge. You know, at Red Bull, this is a total asset now. But like Red Bull is an amazing like case study of a company because like, they sell energy drinks, right? It's just like sugar and water and like some other chemicals, but like they sold like a vision and an approach to life and an ethos and a feeling and like through the lens of all this weird and crazy and awesome content that they do and like, yeah, I don't know, I think Red Bull is awesome. 00;28;44;21 - 00;29;08;05 Joe White Yeah, they make cool stuff and I never drink their product. No. And they're an extremely wealthy and successful company. Yeah. Content. So yeah. So I think that's the big social media innovation was the the capturing of content and capturing of attention. Yeah. Through newsfeeds to create direct relationships between consumers and brands and organizations and things like that. 00;29;08;07 - 00;29;27;14 Jess Ryan Right. So when you start putting the live digital next after that, the human, the humans become a bit of the content and the design around how to connect all those humans and let them go wild and invent themselves of the magic of the gathering. Oh, no. 00;29;27;14 - 00;29;29;05 Joe White Wow, that was then. Not on purpose. 00;29;29;06 - 00;29;36;24 Jess Ryan No, that was amazing. No. Did you see me? Yeah. As I was saying it realized it. 00;29;36;24 - 00;29;39;08 Joe White Magic. The gathering supposedly doing extremely well. 00;29;39;27 - 00;30;02;19 Jess Ryan Oh, my God. I used to drive my brother to the fucking comic book store to play magic. Yeah. Oh, anyway, you can design the technology that houses that is such that you get to learn a ton about those people and take all those learnings and insights and behaviors and use it to segment target. I was thinking about this a lot maybe, which leads to my next question. 00;30;02;19 - 00;30;27;17 Jess Ryan That's not really a question, but I'm curious to know what you think about this. I'm speaking with a CEO of female CEO of a like an app for runners and hikers and stuff like that. And we were just chatting about running businesses. What did you say the other day? The the the exhaustion of waking up every day and trying to figure out how to stay alive in a capitalist society. 00;30;27;17 - 00;30;49;11 Jess Ryan I think you said it better, but you get by. We were talking about that and she said everything in their business is about getting better insights for better performing at the end, like the even though, of course, this is actually an app about guides and, you know, being in the outdoors and all that and share knowledge between a community of people. 00;30;50;06 - 00;31;30;13 Jess Ryan And that made me think about what we do and how like how our data, in some ways our behavioral data is more reliable than in-person events and more robust because you just, you know, every basically movements, step behavior, bounce, whatever of someone at an event that's digital. And it made me think, of course, about the way we we can design certain content to be available that tells us how someone probably likely wants to be segmented and targeted and all that stuff and how like something like that for an app like hers would be huge I think because it's a community already that cares about each other. 00;31;30;13 - 00;31;40;00 Jess Ryan Yeah. And what they do and her business. Right. Needs hyper, hyper specific, targeted, successful ads to stay alive. 00;31;40;04 - 00;32;07;25 Joe White Yeah. Oh, and we have like a just a brief moment to talk about how, how upsetting it is that a business that is designed on, like the, on the backbone of a really interesting and fun community and people who like to hike and do outdoor things. But because of the medium through which they operate, which is an app and their website like, their existence has to be boiled down to most efficient ads possible because that's like the language in the currency of the day that they're operating in an app. 00;32;08;00 - 00;32;22;25 Joe White Yeah. So like, I mean, it does matter how good the content is and how like high quality and how much value people get out of interacting with their product. Yeah, but none of that matters unless they get there. Yeah, that's all ads. Yeah. So that's just, like, a little sad to me. 00;32;22;25 - 00;32;23;27 Jess Ryan I agreed that it's like. 00;32;23;27 - 00;32;27;00 Joe White Oh, are you starting a company on the Internet? You are now an ad tech company. 00;32;27;00 - 00;32;29;12 Jess Ryan Goodbye. Yeah, exactly. 00;32;30;14 - 00;32;34;12 Joe White So that's a little sad. Okay. Moment of silence for that. 00;32;34;12 - 00;32;36;08 Jess Ryan Moving on. 00;32;36;08 - 00;32;53;25 Joe White But I like that idea of, okay, let's just assume for a second that the attention was captured via the ads, via the content for commerce, whatever, whatever, whatever. And now we're into this world of, okay, people are part of this community. They use this app, they're helping each other, you know, learn about the different routes and enjoy the outdoors. 00;32;54;21 - 00;33;12;28 Joe White And so now we're into like retention territory captured attention. Now it's like how do we keep people engaging and interacting? And I think that is the space that we play and that's where we come in right? We can definitely help capture our attention, but it's not what we do best. We're never going to do it better than like targeted advertising on the Internet. 00;33;13;09 - 00;33;34;06 Joe White It's just that's it. The game has been won over there. Yeah, we're moving on. I mean, and retention is certainly like a huge topic of conversation, a huge issue for a lot of companies that are built on an attention model. You know, Netflix, what they care about is attaining new subscribers and retaining existing subscribers like basically their entire business model is just like retention, retention. 00;33;34;06 - 00;33;36;26 Joe White Retention and like all of these video on demand platforms, think about. 00;33;36;26 - 00;33;44;09 Jess Ryan That and making movies on the side that there is their trail guide, you know guys except maybe not anymore so yeah. 00;33;44;09 - 00;34;17;20 Joe White And so it's like, okay, what is among the things that people will continue to come back to an app for? It's like, Oh yeah, are there new features? Is it continuing to serve the purpose? Does my you know, am I still hiking? Right. I still need this thing. But I think that element of community is huge. And like I like that we have this hiking app because like the outdoors is such a large community and like is community connected through to the quality of the app, read reviews and things like that and some sort of like crowdsourcing that wouldn't otherwise be possible unless it was through that community. 00;34;18;11 - 00;34;31;23 Joe White And I like that's where we come in. It's like, how do we get this people together to make it enjoyable to be part of that community and to like, I guess in the example of this app, keep them as paying customers of said app. 00;34;31;23 - 00;34;39;08 Jess Ryan Yeah. And learn more about them and use those learnings of your existing customers probably to inform your ads that are going and trying to find new customers. Right. 00;34;39;08 - 00;34;44;11 Joe White Yeah. Yeah. Like loops back around to capturing more attention like what. 00;34;45;03 - 00;34;51;02 Jess Ryan I went through in the content to write the content you make for the gathering, the event, the experience. Yeah. 00;34;51;02 - 00;34;51;18 Joe White And like what. 00;34;51;22 - 00;34;52;01 Jess Ryan What new. 00;34;52;09 - 00;35;01;18 Joe White Features that, that the app is going to have and what space to move into. It's like, Oh, we're getting into mountain biking because all of our people are also mountain biking. 00;35;01;18 - 00;35;02;08 Jess Ryan Yeah, it's a. 00;35;02;08 - 00;35;04;17 Joe White Whole new group of people that we have yet to talk to or yet to. 00;35;04;17 - 00;35;25;16 Jess Ryan Capture. Yeah, right. Which where that interesting insight about live surveying disguised as pull on poles and the stuff that we do is like really interesting. Also, by the way, I want to say because I hadn't thought about it until I was listening to you just talk one of the other projects we're working on that's community based, it was asking them, you know, I was like, we are going to build this. 00;35;25;16 - 00;35;53;12 Jess Ryan We really want to just back it up into like a real cozy fundamentals of community building space to start with, which is, you know, conventionally there's a lot of different thoughts on this. But what you'll see over and over again is what highly explicit need connects everybody together. You have a community. If you've got a highly explicit need and you've got a community if people are helping each other. 00;35;54;09 - 00;36;11;03 Jess Ryan And I love that. That's so clear with this hiking app, right? I need fucken trail maps so I don't get lost on the side of the mountain hiking down to how to pay because I can't fucking see anything but like hill, you know, any which way. 00;36;11;11 - 00;36;12;06 Joe White Where has Halo pay? 00;36;12;06 - 00;36;28;01 Jess Ryan Oh, in Hawaii. I was talking to the CEO about my hire. Backpacked to Halibut Beach. That's not the name of the trail camp. It's a section of a really long trail in Hawaii. It's beautiful. And she hadn't done it. And I was like, You should make a trail guide for that. But anyway, I have an explicit need, right? 00;36;28;01 - 00;36;48;16 Jess Ryan I have all trails because I have an explicit need to not the fuck get lost biking, which as we all know, is very likely because of a terrible sense of direction. Yeah. And the way these, all these apps are built, all trails, this gal's company as well, allow that community to help each other. You can add to the trails, you can record your hike. 00;36;48;16 - 00;37;01;21 Jess Ryan And at that, you know, on all trails there, the recordings start informing the information. You can leave reviews like you said. Like that is so clear in those principles and fundamentals of community. 00;37;02;01 - 00;37;03;03 Joe White No, I just wanna go hiking. 00;37;03;10 - 00;37;45;27 Jess Ryan I know, I know. So we have a product. My company has a product. It is this app website that is guides. We have a community. This community has an explicit need already there. They help each other out there. We have a community and we find new people through our ads. So what's the pitch for someone who's never fucking heard of live digital to back to my Venn diagram, we go in the middle, you know, in the middle of all of that and, ostensibly not that I talked to her about this, but like ostensibly, we could be incredibly useful for something that has community a product and needs to find new users and retain users like 00;37;45;27 - 00;38;01;19 Jess Ryan you said. So yeah, like how does one explain to someone who's like live digital above suck? Is that why they should add us in the middle or start to combine? You know, how we combine all this stuff together and become the glue for it? 00;38;01;24 - 00;38;11;08 Joe White Yeah, I like this hiking app example again because it allows us to talk with like weird, weird specifics like are relevant but irrelevant. But the relevant. 00;38;11;21 - 00;38;20;11 Jess Ryan Also shout out to my friend who I hope you don't mind. We just used your company on this little episode. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for existing. We'll take you to dinner next month when you're here. 00;38;21;27 - 00;38;44;08 Joe White But I feel like the where my brain went to was oh, they probably do in-person things, right, in-person meetups, in-person hikes, in-person informal gatherings and get togethers of sorts as community building tools and marketing tools like, hey, people who are part of the community come together. That's nice. People who are part of the community, you should come together. 00;38;44;08 - 00;38;47;08 Joe White There will be people who are part of the community that will take you and. 00;38;47;11 - 00;38;48;09 Jess Ryan Connect with friends. 00;38;48;09 - 00;39;01;24 Joe White Yeah, well, I'll talk to you or whatever. Yeah, give things away. There's incentives to pull those people in. Those things are expensive and time consuming and difficult to put together. And I'm sure that this hiking community is spread to every corner of the planet. 00;39;01;24 - 00;39;02;00 Jess Ryan Right. 00;39;02;14 - 00;39;27;28 Joe White And so it's like there's already the pathways for talking about this through the lens of, yeah, marketing and customer acquisition, community building, all those fine of things. They'll have a digital element is really just like an amplification of those other elements. So if we go back to our hiking example, it's like, what if you could engage with everyone everywhere and put on 100 of these events instead of just one of them because they are like lower barrier to entry. 00;39;28;10 - 00;39;29;02 Jess Ryan More affordable. 00;39;29;02 - 00;39;29;29 Joe White More affordable. 00;39;30;09 - 00;39;31;12 Jess Ryan Can include more people have. 00;39;31;12 - 00;39;44;19 Joe White More inclusive. Yeah. And like, you know, the structure, the design, the style of the event is going to be different. That's where we come in. Yeah. Thinking about that and thinking about how people interact with each other on the internet, it's different than on them in real life. 00;39;44;23 - 00;39;47;04 Jess Ryan Mm hmm. 00;39;47;04 - 00;40;09;10 Joe White But it does allow you to reach more people in more places more quickly and cheaply in a way that is different. And I would argue better than just Facebook ads, right? Facebook is the top of that funnel in my mind. It's like, hi, we're doing a thing. You follow us on the Internet for some reason, you know, you like our pretty pictures, but you have yet to subscribe. 00;40;09;10 - 00;40;19;18 Joe White You've yet to be part of this community. We see you. You see us come be part of this thing because it's live and it's digital it's more engaging than just a social media ad or a video on the Internet. 00;40;19;21 - 00;40;20;09 Jess Ryan And you own. 00;40;20;09 - 00;40;40;02 Joe White It and you own it, but it's also lower cost, lower barrier to entry for that person because they don't have to live near New York City to get there. They don't have to travel to Bar Harbor to be part of it like they can jump into it. And again, if that live digital experience is compelling, they will probably just try it, right? 00;40;40;03 - 00;40;45;11 Jess Ryan Yeah. Yeah. It's low barrier to entry. Nothing lost but the most, what, 25 bucks, you know, like. 00;40;45;11 - 00;41;05;27 Joe White Yeah. And I think one part of it is like, oh, there's some novelty there, right? It's not just another gear review video or it's not just another person talking to camera. Right. We're all a little used to that. Like we've been watching those videos for ten years now, but like human interaction and like live human experience, like, I feel like it doesn't get old as quickly. 00;41;05;28 - 00;41;06;19 Jess Ryan Yeah, that's true. 00;41;06;20 - 00;41;25;19 Joe White We're all craving it a bit more right now. Yeah. And like have this sort of we have the, like the runway and the experience and everyone's a little bit more used to it in such a way that I actually think brands can start doing it more frequently. I mean, not just brands, organizations, artists everywhere. Yeah, it can be like, Hi, come meet me live on the internet. 00;41;25;27 - 00;41;27;25 Jess Ryan Musicians are doing such a good job of that, right? 00;41;27;25 - 00;41;29;00 Joe White Or a thing, right? 00;41;29;00 - 00;41;38;23 Jess Ryan Like come up to my monthly stage show and you know, if you pay a little extra, you can like hang out with me or ask questions or whatever. You know, my friend Morgan James does that and has never stopped since the pandemic. 00;41;39;00 - 00;41;56;10 Joe White Yeah, and it's great and it, it doesn't need to supplant in-person things. Right. Just keep doing those. Now those are fun and good, but this allows you to do more. Different, better. Mm hmm. Be more accessible to people who are. Yeah. Again, not just in major metropolitan areas or not next to that favorite mountain that you like. Yeah. 00;41;57;12 - 00;42;22;29 Joe White And actually. Yeah. Reach those new people. I think the live digital thing is going to be more compelling for them to join or subscribe or whatever this sort of action is than just just an impersonal video on the Internet. Yeah. And then there's those benefits of them being sort of integrated into the community. Again, the live event will be explicitly geared towards making that a possibility, creating the space for that. 00;42;22;29 - 00;42;24;19 Joe White And then, yeah, you're growing and adding to your community. 00;42;25;06 - 00;42;38;13 Jess Ryan So it's almost like, tell me if you think I'm super off base here. But what it made me think of listening to that was that like in the way that ten, 20 years ago, the eighties, I guess really the sort of like global of the. 00;42;38;13 - 00;42;41;15 Joe White Eighties were 40 years ago. Yeah, it just had to do that math in my head. 00;42;41;15 - 00;42;42;11 Jess Ryan And so, whoa. 00;42;42;24 - 00;42;44;07 Joe White Wow, that's a long time ago. 00;42;44;07 - 00;43;02;25 Jess Ryan And I realize I don't really know when this started, but I'm going to guess of the eighties now that I've said it out loud as a corporate like global conglomerate, like corporates became a global business. Yeah, this live digital in some ways almost allows small, medium sized and giant companies to become global businesses in a way you just couldn't do. 00;43;02;25 - 00;43;21;12 Jess Ryan Because your audience can be anywhere. You can make money off of people everywhere, you know? It's like, remember how like we've heard this a couple times over the last couple of years when we're working with a ton of nonprofits that are just not interested in donors from overseas because it has not historically played out. Remember hearing that couple. 00;43;21;23 - 00;43;22;23 Joe White Culturally it's different. 00;43;22;23 - 00;43;23;18 Jess Ryan Yeah, all. 00;43;23;18 - 00;43;25;05 Joe White The U.S. tax structure and. 00;43;25;05 - 00;43;29;13 Jess Ryan What John Tomlinson told us about the cultural differences, it's so interesting, but so like. 00;43;29;13 - 00;43;33;05 Joe White Tipping. Yeah, they're like, wait, you just wonder, just pay people living wages. 00;43;33;05 - 00;43;34;11 Jess Ryan Yeah. What do you have that. 00;43;35;09 - 00;43;36;03 Joe White I'm confused. 00;43;36;10 - 00;43;58;04 Jess Ryan But in some ways, like for Let's Take Away Now nonprofits and talk about for profit businesses like your your hiking guide that maybe could have only been for this isn't true of my friend but like I don't know let's just say you made all the Denver guides, you know, back when there was only the printing press. Like, you're this small business. 00;43;58;04 - 00;44;09;00 Jess Ryan Small medium sized business can become a global brand because you can create events that include everyone experiences because it's not events. It's experiences for communities, right? 00;44;09;03 - 00;44;22;02 Joe White Yeah. Yeah. I just thought about that with like the Denver guides. It's like they could be part of like the tourism bureau and like getting like cultivating a community outside of Denver and then bringing them to Denver. 00;44;22;02 - 00;44;23;11 Jess Ryan Absolutely. 00;44;23;22 - 00;44;25;01 Joe White Very cool. I want to go to Denver. 00;44;25;12 - 00;44;26;02 Jess Ryan Denver school. 00;44;26;23 - 00;44;27;11 Joe White It exists. 00;44;27;12 - 00;44;27;20 Jess Ryan Yeah. 00;44;28;01 - 00;44;31;13 Joe White It's one of those cities that, like everyone is moving to across the past five years. 00;44;31;14 - 00;44;36;18 Jess Ryan Like I feel like all of the alien cities are all like that. Kansas City, Nashville, you know, Denver with. 00;44;36;18 - 00;44;37;27 Joe White An A-1 city. 00;44;37;29 - 00;44;42;02 Jess Ryan I think my friend made this up, but a site he used it for. 00;44;42;05 - 00;44;43;14 Joe White It's a term that someone made up. 00;44;43;16 - 00;45;01;15 Jess Ryan I think it was a summit. Friend of mine was building a startup and was specifically moving into what he ended up labeling for, like visa stuff, aliens, that is. And those are Nashville, Austin, Casey, you know, the the like the next down from L.A. and New York. 00;45;01;15 - 00;45;06;06 Joe White It's like not the top ten. Yeah, A1 is such a nice way to say that and not like tier two or whatever. 00;45;06;06 - 00;45;28;24 Jess Ryan Yeah. I thought it was smart and made his deck really like make a ton of sense. Yeah. Which is cool. Anyway, anyhow, well, this has been really interesting and I think like actually really clarifying if you're a person who's like us, you know, thinking about how if you love using the internet to bring people together, as frequently reminds us, we have to have a business inside of that. 00;45;28;24 - 00;45;37;24 Jess Ryan And I think actually this was really clarifying and trying to start to really understand or take a guess at the next three months cycle of why people are going to do this. 00;45;37;24 - 00;45;58;15 Joe White Yeah, I hope will get excited about this episode, put some things into practice. Everyone, every brand, every organization out there probably has social media. They probably have some fans, followers, community the kindling of a community somewhere and life digital is a way to take a next step with the people who raise their hand in that community or raise their hand among their followers and say, Yeah, I like what you do. 00;45;58;15 - 00;46;04;04 Joe White I want to be part of a thing. And you can get that spun up a little bit more easily than renting out the Javits Center or something. 00;46;04;04 - 00;46;12;00 Jess Ryan Yeah, this was an excellent Wednesday episode of the podcast. Thanks for joining us as ever. 00;46;12;13 - 00;46;18;25 Joe White And as always, the goal of this podcast is to bring people together. So share this with someone who wants to go hiking. 00;46;19;07 - 00;46;19;21 Jess Ryan Yeah. 00;46;20;06 - 00;46;27;00 Joe White Well, yes, but maybe more importantly, wants to figure out how to incorporate that digital into their community building and community engagement structures. 00;46;27;13 - 00;46;28;02 Jess Ryan I'm just. 00;46;28;02 - 00;46;28;13 Joe White And I'm. 00;46;28;13 - 00;46;44;16 Jess Ryan and we will see you back here next week.