060922
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[00:00:00] Jess Ryan: Welcome to the get 

[00:00:04] Joe White: together well over the world, there are people thinking about and creating a future of live digital events and performances. 

[00:00:09] Jess Ryan: They're disparate innovators who are artists, tech, founders on profits and investors, and they need a place to gather and share ideas. That's what the guests 

[00:00:18] Joe White: gather 

[00:00:18] Jess Ryan: is all about.

[00:00:19] Jess Ryan: I'm just a theater creator who loves bringing people together around technology art and 

[00:00:24] Joe White: the internet. And I'm Joe, a tech and media startup bet with over 10 years of experience growing and operating 

[00:00:29] Jess Ryan: businesses. Thanks for getting together with us. Let's dig in.

[00:00:44] Jess Ryan: How was your long weekend, Joe, 

[00:00:47] Joe White: there never, never long enough. That's 

[00:00:49] Jess Ryan: true. That is true. I don't trust anybody that says otherwise, you know, my weekend was plenty long. I 

[00:00:55] Joe White: felt really good about it. I was dying to get back to the grind of trying to survive in a [00:01:00] capitalist society. 

[00:01:02] Jess Ryan: Yeah. Post-capitalism I feel like that's come up a 

[00:01:05] Joe White: lot lately.

[00:01:06] Joe White: Post-capitalism what does that mean? I don't know, 

[00:01:08] Jess Ryan: but people keep saying it. A lot. I think it's a thing people are talking about right now that we're entering into my fucking microphone. What stay a phase of post-capitalism economy or something? You haven't heard 

[00:01:20] Joe White: this at all? Like, um, like we've reached the, sort of the final, the final stages of capitalism, where all the money has been accumulated by a very few.

[00:01:34] Joe White: And the system no longer functions. So we're going to move past. It is my sort of interpretation of that. 

[00:01:40] Jess Ryan: I've heard someone say French revolution, style tips, like it's the tipping point where either it goes, that was the exact example someone used the other day when they were talking about this, was it tips to French revolution, shit or dictatorship?

[00:01:53] Joe White: Ah, Quip, ocracy, 

[00:01:55] Jess Ryan: corporal core policy. Yeah. 

[00:01:58] Joe White: That's exciting. I [00:02:00] had a thought something around this or should I was like, I really hope I'm dead by the time all of this comes to a resolution, 

[00:02:05] Jess Ryan: I don't know. Um, I find it very strange that, uh, this has come up like multiple times across multiple people in conversations I've had and not in conversations you're having.

[00:02:15] Jess Ryan: Cause this is a much more likely candidate, I think, to be in your conversations than mine with all my artist, 

[00:02:21] Joe White: friends. No wait, maybe that's like a sign of something. I'm not sure what. Right. Like, you know, are people more connected to the system itself and therefore harder to see outside of it or your people a bit more dramatic?

[00:02:37] Joe White: Maybe we say 

[00:02:38] Jess Ryan: I'm sure I don't have any idea what you're 

[00:02:40] Joe White: talking about. And therefore, a post capitalistic fear driven narrative of the world is more likely to be. 

[00:02:50] Jess Ryan: Well, you sound like you have an opinion on which one is, right? 

[00:02:54] Joe White: No, I think both are right. I think all all are potentially true. I do think like, you know, [00:03:00] someone who has an economics degree and works in finance is probably pretty blind to it.

[00:03:03] Joe White: One because they're probably making lots of money. Uh, but two, they sort of like are in the weeds of the system and are part of it's working. So it's hard to see the system as a 

[00:03:14] Jess Ryan: whole from the outside. Yeah. That's interesting. Plus artists are out almost always are a little, uh, artists are almost always Oracle's.

[00:03:23] Jess Ryan: Artists are 

[00:03:23] Joe White: almost always article articles. That's like a tongue twister, 

[00:03:26] Jess Ryan: a warmup, a vocal warmup before your show. I like it historically have been seen as Oracles, 

[00:03:32] Joe White: right? Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. They are, I almost said their job, but it's like their approach in worldview is to. Analyze and be critical of society and 

[00:03:44] Jess Ryan: notice, you know, as much as humanly possible as well.

[00:03:48] Jess Ryan: Yeah. What a great way to start 

[00:03:50] Joe White: a podcast. Can we cut all of this and start 

[00:03:52] Jess Ryan: over? Absolutely mad. Speaking of capitalist societies content today. 

[00:03:59] Joe White: [00:04:00] Yeah. So in the past, on this podcast, we've talked about, you know, content to commerce and content to this and content growth and content, every 

[00:04:08] Jess Ryan: kind of tent. And I was really happy about.

[00:04:11] Joe White: Uh, maybe a Freudians live of some sort. I don't know, but yeah, that word is not like really in my vocabulary. I don't know. There's a couple of words that I just like, man, that's not a word that I say it's just like, never one. It never like hits me in the head. And when I hear it from someone else, I'm like, all right, that word continues to exist.

[00:04:27] Joe White: That's fun. Would 

[00:04:29] Jess Ryan: you believe this is the second time in three days? This conversation has come up about the word, cunt. Yeah, absolutely. And I was just talking about it. We were having a very similar conversation, but with a bunch of, uh, like my very queer friends and I was saying that I am watching this.

[00:04:44] Jess Ryan: Uh, of legendary, which is a vote ballroom competition show that I just love, although the season's not as good, but, um, and Vogue ballroom has this like super rich culture in history that is really rooted in like creating families for. [00:05:00] People who have been left on the fringes of society and expressing yourself through dance, which of course like, you know, I love, uh, and I found out from last week's episode that there is a whole category.

[00:05:10] Jess Ryan: People walk in voguing and ballroom called soft and cunt. And I w it doesn't mean it's like a particularly feminine style of, uh, walking a ballroom. I'm not going to explain it for them in that, cause I'm totally not qualified, but you can look it up. I'm sure it's on the internet. Um, Like I almost cried.

[00:05:27] Jess Ryan: It made me so happy because it's such a like good example of reclaiming a sh really terrible word, a word that was leveraged against women. You know what I mean? Um, and it, I just love that there's a whole category. You can watch. That's so 

[00:05:43] Joe White: fun. God, it's so good. So now it's like, it's the Brits and it's people walking in that category that are popularizing the use of this term globally.

[00:05:53] Jess Ryan: Yeah, that's exactly right. But not July. It 

[00:05:56] Joe White: just feels weird coming out of my 

[00:05:57] Jess Ryan: mouth. Yeah. So you didn't say content, you said 

[00:05:59] Joe White: [00:06:00] content. Oh, right. Where are we? Yeah, content. Content, and we've got to kind of send it like that again. Sorry. Stuck. Yeah. But the, yeah, content to commerce is one that I like as like just the name.

[00:06:14] Joe White: That the media industry was like, oh, you know, we are there's, you know, failing ad revenues. Well, how else can we make money? Oh, content is the name of the game right now, capturing people's attention on the internet and converting them to buy things. That's the way that we can make money. And as a business, we do something kind of similar.

[00:06:33] Joe White: Like we create content to attract clients, to attract, um, talent, to work with us, to.

[00:06:43] Joe White: Really just move any and every element of our business forward, because yeah, capturing attention on the internet is done via content. And that's the only thing that seems to work right now, because they're all just scrolling the social media or. Googling to learn things [00:07:00] or yeah. Getting down YouTube rabbit holes and being converted to extremism.

[00:07:05] Joe White: Maybe not that last part. Uh that's. That would be an interesting analysis with like our specific videos. Like how long does it take to get to extremist content? You know, the, do 

[00:07:15] Jess Ryan: those research slaves, Kevin bacon, sort of six degrees of Kevin bacon, 

[00:07:19] Joe White: kind of they'll do it with like, you know, Tucker Carlson clips on YouTube and just like, you know, run an algorithm to see how, how long.

[00:07:26] Joe White: Starts recommending extremist content. Oh my God. No, I did not know about that at all. I think that they're like inventing like an index for it. Like that's cool. So like what would be our index? I'm hoping 

[00:07:37] Jess Ryan: it'd be pretty low. Yeah. I feel like we're, we're a many steps from extremist content. I hope so. I haven't really had to really rethink everything.

[00:07:47] Joe White: That'd be a funny metric. Um, so maybe we'll report back on that eventually, if it ever actually, uh, becomes a thing on the internet that we can calculate. Totally. Um, but it's a thing that we do a lot. We have, oh, this show, this [00:08:00] podcast. We have a weekly live show on Tuesdays at 1:00 PM, um, called the get together live.

[00:08:06] Joe White: We have a newsletter. We have social media content. A content creation machine, we share our, um, and each of those shows or elements or channels has like a, a different purpose, but they're all connected through to the idea of, we have things to say those things that we say are what make us good at what we do, you know, creating and designing live digital experiences, um, live hybrid experiences, not live experiences, all this stuff.

[00:08:40] Joe White: And yeah, that, that content is the way to communicate that expertise. And to communicate that interest, communicate that excitement out to people who might want to work with us, might want to work for us. Might just want to know who we are and tune into our things might eventually want to pay us money.

[00:08:54] Joe White: It might eventually want to take our money. I don't know. Um, but I was, I was thinking [00:09:00] earlier this week, just about like how to conceptualize the success of any of these individually and then all of them holistically. And that's about as far as I got, cause it's like a big wonky question, but I was actually hoping we could dive into one of our newer, our newer content, uh, enterprises, they get together live.

[00:09:23] Joe White: Um, and actually if I could throw it to you to just describe a bit of what that is, Um, and then we can get into it. Yeah. 

[00:09:30] Jess Ryan: Well, the get together live. If you haven't been a part of it yet, it happens on Tuesdays at 1:00 PM and we've been doing it for now, probably a year and a half, right. Just near a year and a half some version of this.

[00:09:43] Jess Ryan: We started on clubhouse and it was. Oh, clubhouses still exist. Yeah. 

[00:09:49] Joe White: Someone, 

[00:09:50] Jess Ryan: someone also just asked me that two days ago. I'm not kidding. This is a weird conversation where a lot of shit's coming up that has been, uh, brought up to me recently. Um, so we [00:10:00] started this live conversation on Tuesdays on clubhouse with the intent of opening up the space to, as you said earlier, assert sort of our authority to create a space, to discuss.

[00:10:15] Jess Ryan: A lot of futurist, you know, sort of leaning topics because that's just sort of what comes with the work. We do create a space for discussing them, you know, in a, in a, in a format and in a structure we value, which is oftentimes to ask more questions than to offer answers, to, to put thoughts and ideas and feedback and responses in the frame of lots of different people's lenses and consider, you know, all those questions we're asking through those lenses.

[00:10:43] Jess Ryan: And to also be on a platform in a live conversation where people could discover us. Right. And I think that's how I would boil down, like our three ones just when we started doing that. And, um, over time it was really neat because we sort of gathered, it was like a little magnet, just a [00:11:00] tiny magnet for just a really small, but mighty group of incredible people working in.

[00:11:08] Jess Ryan: Theater in film and digital sort of applications of theater or the arts, um, uh, who started joining us on a regular basis inside there. And some of them, we didn't, we just met incredible people, you know, who keep in touch, um, just because they valued what we were bringing to the table. So, yeah. Uh, over a period of time, we were like, okay, there's sort of like a core crew that comes back a lot and has really interesting perspectives.

[00:11:35] Jess Ryan: And it seems to really value this conversation. So let's turn it into a live live streamed show on Tuesday. Uh, and expand it past the Broadway unlocked crew. So instead of inviting them to join us on stage and offer their opinion, when they had something to say, we asked them to be a part of the panel.

[00:11:53] Jess Ryan: Um, and so now there's sort of like a rotating group of eight or so folks from around the. Uh, [00:12:00] Justin Masterson gets us that global, that global perspective and American and London, um, uh, that, that rotate in and out. And, and we chat each week about news that's happening. And probably more importantly, the context to that news and how it impacts our, our, our professions and our companies and, and how it can inform the future of what we're doing.

[00:12:20] Jess Ryan: Uh, so that is my summary of the get together lives. Yeah, 

[00:12:24] Joe White: I kind of forgot that it tracks all the way back to the clubhouse stays. Like I've been thinking about it through the lens of our, our now live stream show, which goes out to YouTube on Tuesdays at 1:00 PM. Um, but yeah, clubhouse was a vibe. There was even Twitter spaces in there for a hot minute 

[00:12:37] Jess Ryan: tutoring spaces.

[00:12:38] Jess Ryan: We were like, not this isn't worth our energy. Like this 

[00:12:40] Joe White: is yeah. Not doing the trick. Um, but I, I do think like the mapping of that from clubhouse, which. We're joined both to experiment with, just to, you know, know the platform itself. But also you mentioned it before the potential reach and discovery. And I feel like that's a promise that clubhouse had that we didn't really see materialize.[00:13:00] 

[00:13:00] Joe White: If we think about it through a quantity and a quality perspective, I think we got quality, right? We've met people that are interesting, that are fun. That are cool. That are still talking with us, engaging with us today, both in the get together, live, live stream show on YouTube. Yep. And like you said, sort of anything.

[00:13:15] Joe White: Everywhere off, off all platforms, you know, just human beings that we now interact with. Yeah. But like the, the quantity play, like just never really materialize, you know, I think our max show is like 20 people. And on average, we were like between five and eight or something like that. So like fairly small numbers.

[00:13:31] Joe White: So it didn't really like play out on the quantity side and the way that we had hoped for in sort of attracting a broader audience, potential new clients, all those sorts of fun, good things. Definitely. Um, which I think. Part of, you know, if not explicitly then implicitly the switch from clubhouse through Twitter spaces, we should just stop mentioning sort of spaces.

[00:13:52] Joe White: I don't know why I brought it up. Um, but now into this other. Quality quality based, um, execution of the [00:14:00] same idea. Um, so, you know, we shifted our goals in a sense away from quantity, um, and towards quality. And, and I was, yeah. Curious to like, kind of go a little bit deeper into that as to like, how you think about the goals of the get together live and, you know, it is still technically going out to.

[00:14:16] Joe White: Could attract a humongous, massive, crazy, wonderful audience on YouTube has yet to, and it doesn't feel like we're specifically prioritizing that. So I was curious, yeah. How you think about sort of success? 

[00:14:27] Jess Ryan: Yeah. I mean, it's been, how many weeks have we done this now? We probably done four or five episodes this way.

[00:14:33] Jess Ryan: So it's like, you know, this period of time when you start well for me, right. As someone who's made a whole. Things over the years with varying degrees of success and varying measurements of success. Like there's always this sort of like analytics period where I'm trying to see what's emerging and what it's becoming and what that could be.

[00:14:55] Jess Ryan: And so for me, this has really only happened across the last week and a half or so. [00:15:00] And I know this is not news to Joe, cause I've said this a couple of times, but for you all, um, I got asked, I was at drinks with some. Uh, another founder in the Broadway industry. And, uh, he was. After hearing everything we've done, particularly in the theater space with Broadway unlocked specifically.

[00:15:18] Jess Ryan: So glides and miscast and you know, all, all the things I don't have to pull Taylor, blah, blah, blah, blah. He was like, how do people get to find out about you? Like, do you advertise? Like why, why the fuck don't I know you basically. And I was like, oh, fuck me. I, you know, um, and it got me thinking, I don't see no newsletter.

[00:15:40] Jess Ryan: I know. Uh, and it got me thinking a lot about the, our Metro. We have an OKR, right. That somewhere I'm going to misquote it, I think, but that, like, we want to own something around 40% of the Broadway based live. Uh, business that comes out, which we don't think is going to be a huge [00:16:00] Mount. There's not gonna be a lot of stuff done in the next year.

[00:16:02] Jess Ryan: So, you know, for us, we want to make sure we're a part of the majority of it just by reputation and, and, um, outcomes and all that good stuff that we've already earned for our clients. So that, just those two things together, right. Got me thinking a lot about this conversation that we have each week on Tuesdays, because it, I think the most valuable thing outside my own selfish interest in it and just enjoying it, the most valuable thing is this is a group of people committed to an inventing the future of theater and.

[00:16:33] Jess Ryan: That it's a really interesting conversation with a lot of entry points in because there are so many people from so many different angles, like people running, theaters, people doing data and archiving of filmed live musicals, like us web three people, you know, it's it's wild. And so I just keep thinking that.

[00:16:54] Jess Ryan: More people need to hear it because I think if we are more discoverable [00:17:00] in this particular iteration of it, I don't think it would have worked as well with the earlier version of it. I think we needed to move through that, but this particular version. Should people, should it be easier for people to discover it in our industry?

[00:17:12] Jess Ryan: It could be a really useful way, um, to make sure we, we capture that 40% of the live digital business on Broadway across the next 

[00:17:21] Joe White: year. So we're like back to quality and quantity. Yeah. It's like we have the quality basis from which to grow. Absolutely. Reach more people. Yeah. And so, yeah, we want, which version of the show do you want in front of more people?

[00:17:36] Joe White: Like the recorded version or to like, for them to show up at 1:00 PM on Tuesdays. Ooh. 

[00:17:42] Jess Ryan: Well, I don't, uh, I don't, this is like one of those things where like, I don't have a want because I don't, I don't see how we could possibly get the video in front of people live on Tuesdays very quickly, simply just cause our YouTube channel is sizeable, but like 70% of [00:18:00] our people who watch our videos are not our subscribers.

[00:18:02] Jess Ryan: We're a discovery machine, basically. So that's like, that's one of those where I'm like, I don't think I can even ask for what I want. You know what I mean? It just got to go after what seems feasible, but I dunno. What do you think about 

[00:18:13] Joe White: all of it? Well, that's the way I, like, I'm trying to wrap my head around, like, right.

[00:18:19] Joe White: Like let's put out there just has to leave. Like the goal is to get it in front of more Broadway adjacent decision-makers. Right. And so it's like, okay, cool. Let's define and distill down that audience a little bit better. You know, who are they? What actually, what attributes make a person fit into that category?

[00:18:37] Joe White: You know, what jobs do they have, where do they. Live work, play, read, consume on the internet, um, all of that sort of stuff. And then from there, I'd be like, okay, now that we understand who this person is that we want to reach as like, sort of our stated goal, then what either changes or additions do we need to make to the existing show to get it to them?

[00:18:58] Joe White: You know, does 1:00 PM on Tuesdays, [00:19:00] like not work for anyone in that industry, because they're all doing X, Y, or Z, um, you know, do, they does not know about it. And we just. Get it in front of them by buying ads on YouTube, Instagram and Tik TOK. I don't know. I don't know where they are. We've in theory discovered this Saturday.

[00:19:17] Joe White: Um, do we need to get more of them into the show in some capacity and, you know, leverage the, the core sort of group of eight people that we have to pull in, in a one-off capacity, more people. Slightly further outside of that core group to then create that. I don't know that web or that chain of, of connectivity that we're trying to build and therefore reach more people having like the cross-pollination of those people's audiences and then being like, Hey, like I actually had an amazing conversation, everyone that I know in the Broadway industry go listen to this.

[00:19:49] Joe White: Yeah. Um, so that's, that's sort of like where my brain goes with it all, but what I like it's stuck on is the like yeah. The is. [00:20:00] Goal of this live experience show to reach Broadway people specifically? Or is that just one of many goals or is that not even a goal? Like, that's sort of like where my head is at at 

[00:20:10] Jess Ryan: this point.

[00:20:11] Jess Ryan: Yeah. Um, I don't think it originally was, but it certainly feels like to me, the way it's sort of shaped up, we just talk about the arts too much. You know what I mean? And it's, it's such a valuable group of people. Done so much in their careers that it's just that live one, as opposed to our podcast has, has really swung so heavily into theater that like I have two strong instincts as of today, June 1st, which will change I'm sure quickly, but one of them is that we should embrace that and leverage it and use it to capture the theater business instead of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

[00:20:45] Jess Ryan: Yeah. And then the other thing that, and this is sort of to something you were just talking about is. So I think there, I think there is a lot of room to lean into the share-ability of it. And it's something I've been thinking a lot about because the change we [00:21:00] saw as we went to the live YouTube show is that now people on our panel are sharing it out across their social needs.

[00:21:08] Jess Ryan: Um, channels, which is like a way that we grew take me to coffee, like crazy. Right? So designing, knowing that, that we took a step forward in that it encouraged and people felt comfortable sharing it with their own networks, like tells me that that's something we can lean further into. You know what I mean?

[00:21:25] Jess Ryan: Which is where I start talking, thinking about like, we've been thinking about whether or not to go see if our friend runs I heart radio Broadway to see if they want. Pick the pot, pick the audio up as a podcast, maybe the video cause they have a digital platform to, and for me that is really about adding another reason for our panelists to want to share this.

[00:21:48] Jess Ryan: Like, uh, some credibility, right. And keeping taking a step forward so that they feel calm, confident that we are working to get these important conversations in front of ears. And then it also would allow us. The other thing I've [00:22:00] been thinking about is it allows us to, it becomes easier to like ask someone to come on and guest.

[00:22:05] Jess Ryan: Like I can imagine it's much easier to cold message can Davenport, for instance, I don't know why I just chose his name out of nowhere, but, and say, Hey, we've got this podcast on iHeart, radio Broadway. We talk about the future of theater and the arts, and we'd love to have you on. And then you get into that.

[00:22:20] Jess Ryan: Take me to coffee thing, where we've got all of a sudden influencers coming on, who are then sharing out because they're having this great conversation. That's unlike any other podcasts they've ever been on. So back to the avatar thing that that's the right word, right? Like an avatar for someone. Okay. So how, how do you, for instance, That founder, I was having a drinks with, right.

[00:22:42] Jess Ryan: Maybe like two days later called and was like, Hey, I have a relationship with this lead producer of something that's coming in. It's early, they're doing an out of town. I think they should stream. Let's talk about how we can work together. Right. And so that is directly at a relationship with someone who we've [00:23:00] asked actually to come be a part of the, get together, live, who then had the relationship with the lead producer and wants to leverage us in his relationship.

[00:23:09] Jess Ryan: I think though it is nowhere as fast moving as I would like, you know, it's a spec, that's how a lot of this is going to happen across our Broadway work. So to that, how would you, how would you start with, would you use that example as a jumping off point to like, build that avatar that you're talking about?

[00:23:29] Joe White: Maybe I actually remember. I want to go back to before, so thank you for the question. Okay. You're welcome. So in building that avatar, one of the like key questions in my mind is how big or worthwhile is that avatar for us. So you kind of alluded to before as well, that if we want, we want to own, or be part of a big chunk of what Broadway.

[00:23:51] Joe White: In a theatrical space is doing. Yeah. Um, but how big is that potentially cause right. If we own a hundred percent of nothing, we own nothing. [00:24:00] That's true. Um, and so to like put a bunch of energy and time into targeting that group without any expectation of it actually like coming to fruition in whatever time period we set, like short term is, is kind of a reality right now, midterm and longterm, or obviously.

[00:24:17] Joe White: Yeah, what's the Kinsey quote. There's a, in the long run, we're all dead, which is like a, an economics joke about not planning specifically around the long run. Okay. Cause like, basically you can, you can argue that anything might happen in the long run. Of course, this is worthwhile. Like Broadway will eventually figure this out, but that could be a hundred years from now.

[00:24:37] Joe White: Um, so whatever, just a little economics jokes in there for everyone. John Maynard Keynes, I believe was the person who had that joke. He's long dead. 

[00:24:48] Jess Ryan: That's really meta. 

[00:24:50] Joe White: Um, so yeah. Is it like how, how worthwhile is the Broadway industry in the short term? No shows are going to do it [00:25:00] right. It's like, oh, it's actually not worth anything.

[00:25:02] Joe White: It's worth literally $0 because no one is doing anything. But then there's the question. 

[00:25:06] Jess Ryan: Yeah. On that before he won. So I don't forget. Are you, are you saying that because your assumption is no one's going to do anything or like where, where did, how did we get to the assumption is no, one's going to do anything.

[00:25:17] Jess Ryan: Oh, 

[00:25:17] Joe White: well, let's, um, let's put some reality behind it. Um, let's take like the fall, um, season of Broadway. Yeah. As of right now, it doesn't like, I don't know of anyone. Do you know of anyone who is doing a live stream run with their, um, with their fall, like set of shows? Um, 

[00:25:40] Jess Ryan: I don't know, like, I guess this show potential is a potential candidate for that.

[00:25:45] Joe White: Yeah. So if we look at like, just that like short, short, short run, right? That's like, let's call it six months just for the simplicity of the number. Um, like the. Like real value of that is zero. Cause like no one is actively are actually doing it. And I [00:26:00] guess you could make an argument that one could be convinced to do it.

[00:26:05] Joe White: Um, but I feel like it's a fairly unlikely scenario given that like how budgets are planned ahead of time and how much planning needs to go into a season like that. But so that's just like one cut of it that just says like across six months, what is this market? This group of people, this avatar of people, this, these potential connections.

[00:26:22] Joe White: And these actual Broadway shows, like what is the potential revenue from all of those? And I think there's an argument to be made that it is zero. Maybe it's something slightly higher than zero, but even if it's just one show, like, is that enough to build our business around and therefore this marketing channel that is this podcast and these lab shows, is it enough to build that around?

[00:26:42] Joe White: If the demand. Isn't actually there, if like there aren't actually shows who want the services that we might provide. So therefore like getting the attention of the person who could refer us to the person who might do the thing is actually not worth it in the short term, because there isn't [00:27:00] enough potential business to ever be one.

[00:27:02] Joe White: Does that make sense? So we're like way down the funnel all the way to the bottom and saying. How many Broadway shows are there each season. Let's go back to real numbers. 

[00:27:09] Jess Ryan: 14. I'm going to say 14 off the top of my head, but I really want to check that. Hello, this is your friendly cohost, just Ryan dropping in to say I'm a fucking idiot.

[00:27:21] Jess Ryan: 14. Where did I get that number from? There's truly 31 Broadway shows running right this second on June 8th, 2022. And that's just basically the spring season. So. They'll listen to me. I have no idea what I'm talking about. Let's 

[00:27:39] Joe White: make it up. Let's call it 10. Cause I like rounder numbers for doing the math.

[00:27:43] Joe White: Let's pretend there's only 10 that go live. And um, one of them is actually going to do a live stream thing and because of our, all of our relationships and yada yada, yada, we like win that business, but we just went over. And it's not actually enough [00:28:00] business to sustain our business through that time period that season.

[00:28:04] Joe White: So it's like, okay. Across the short term, that's like not a valuable investment cause like we can't survive on just that one show alone, but we're not only going to think through the short term and things of the medium and then the longterm when we're all dead. Um, let's stick on the medium term for a second.

[00:28:18] Joe White: Okay. Now we're talking about. Spring 2023 in fall, 2023 and 2024 and 25 and 26. And all of those. And I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that more like a higher percentage of those 10 shows will be doing some sort of a live stream. So now all of a sudden we're up to two shows and like, is that enough revenue to sustain our business?

[00:28:37] Joe White: And like, you know, we do this math in theory based on. How shows pay other agencies and things like that, and figure out how much money that we could actually potentially make. What number of shows would actually need to invest in and do a live streaming thing. And then how many of those we think we could win and how much revenue that would actually look like to us to then say, okay, across the next five years, like [00:29:00] we actually believe there is a substantive business to be built around supporting the live stream executions of Broadway shows.

[00:29:08] Joe White: Therefore it's worth doing right now. It's worth marketing. It's worth doing this podcast is worth doing that live, um, live show on Tuesdays. Um, because we're aiming at something that is sustainable, even if in the short term it's like not so, yeah, that's where my brain went with all that. And like the difference between short term and medium term and the importance of looking at both of them and like accepting and acknowledging, like, okay, the short term is not going to be profiting.

[00:29:35] Joe White: Because we don't believe. And like, we're doing eyes open, you know what we're doing? We don't believe that more than one of those 10 shows is actually going to do anything. And that, of that, you know, that one show that's going do what we think we can win that business because of the work that we've done in the past.

[00:29:49] Joe White: And then in the medium term is more shows to do it. You know, just a bigger pie for everyone to, to tap into. We think we'll get some of those, but, you know, even if we only win three. Out of six, whatever [00:30:00] we got, half of them with great. Um, three is still more than one. Right. And so it's like, okay, now we're all of a sudden that like a sustainable business model, because there's enough actual demand for the services that we're trying to provide.

[00:30:12] Joe White: Whereas I like in the short term, I don't think that demands. 

[00:30:15] Jess Ryan: So if someone is listening to this and as thinking about their own content that they're making in their own company, because I think we have a good amount of founders. So entrepreneurs that listen, what would a takeaway be that you could offer them?

[00:30:29] Jess Ryan: Like how. That's like a bunch of big, huge, amazing ideas that are really easy for someone that is, has an economics degree. Um, so like, do you have some actionable steps? You know, that you could offer someone like me that's listening. Right? Who's like, uh, that sounds reasonable, but I have no idea what to do.

[00:30:47] Joe White: Well, it depends. How, how much do you want to get into business planning and modeling? Because I think everyone should do and know how to do that. You undersell yourself in, in your ability to do that. Cause I think you can make a five-year business plan based on this exact [00:31:00] scenario. Sure. Um, but I do think like thinking out.

[00:31:04] Joe White: Especially with something as rigid as Broadway, which I like, I like this example because there's already 10 polls from which to build their seasons. There's the number of shows that we pretend it was 10 for the simplicity of the math is the amount of money that they spend on services, like what we are offering or what our listeners might be offering with their service that would allow you to yeah.

[00:31:23] Joe White: To model out a couple of years and start making some assumptions around how much money there would be to bake. Um, Who those people might be. Um, yeah. What percentage of shows you think could actually get into the space that you're getting into? Um, I guess I'll just keep speaking to the live streaming thing.

[00:31:43] Joe White: Cause I don't, I don't know what our listeners businesses are and whether or not they're targeting Broadway. Um, but to at the very least, like, as you're mapping out into the future, build a world in which. You can sustain your business [00:32:00] and then you spend those five years trying to figure out how to create that world.

[00:32:03] Joe White: Um, cause like, right, right now we don't know the right way to pitch or convince a Broadway show to take on live streaming and what exactly what format that exactly is going to take. You know, we have a couple of examples and we it'll probably continue to change in the future, but if we build a model that says, okay, by year three, we have to have to have to have two shows that.

[00:32:26] Joe White: Paying us to create the, the live walking for, you know, a Broadway live stream, then that helps us understand, okay, we need to be pitching and creating and, and designing and convincing many more shows than just the two. Right. Um, and how do we get that? Who were the people that we need to reach, um, that make that sort of a decision.

[00:32:50] Joe White: And that helps to inform you all the work that we're doing. This. That's not necessarily well distilled for anyone on the podcast, but I think actually [00:33:00] it's always more complicated than what can be distilled in a sound bite. So I don't feel that bad about it. 

[00:33:07] Jess Ryan: It is always more complicated, but at least I think even what you just described, it's really important, right.

[00:33:11] Jess Ryan: For someone again. Who like me who might be listening. And just like, that was the first chunk was a lot of information. If it's the first time you're listening to some, an idea like this. So even what you did just then to distill down, it's not to give someone right. Like the exact thing to walk away and do, but it's to have a, be more interested to go find out more.

[00:33:31] Jess Ryan: Right. Like, which is what I think is neat about when, like what you just did and distilling it down to the concept of even just like. Do three years instead of just make content, you know, and, and know that like your measure is going to tell you about how you're going to build your business and you know, whether you 

[00:33:48] Joe White: hit those marks.

[00:33:49] Joe White: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And even if maybe this is a little bit of a soundbitey takeaway, it's like, even if what you mapped out and planned out is for. Like it's better that it exists and you're aiming at something then [00:34:00] for it to be 100%, right. Because they will never be 100%, right. Everything's going to change.

[00:34:03] Joe White: And that's what running the business actually means is adapting to those changes and figuring out how to change the goals, or maybe not change the bills, but adjust the trajectory and adjust the path that you're taking to reach the goals. Um, Yeah. I don't know. There's something that you just said before that, that brought up in my mind.

[00:34:19] Joe White: I think that I've said a lot, a few, few times recently, but that I do not believe in that if you build it, they will come philosophy. Like I just do not believe it that especially in this era of content consumption and discovery, that it's just so, so very unlikely that if you build it, they will come.

[00:34:37] Joe White: Like you have to go find them. You have to market, you have to, um, Yeah. Cross-pollinate your audiences with other people who have similar interests or ideas, bringing in those guests that we were talking about earlier. Like you definitely have to build it and you definitely have to get people to come.

[00:34:55] Joe White: And like, maybe once those, um, once that, what the heck is that called? The flywheel is [00:35:00] up and running. The Glidepath is, is sort of set then people might come, but that's a very different world. Like being established and having momentum versus getting going. 

[00:35:11] Jess Ryan: You started this conversation by saying you hadn't really thought about much further about the get together live, which I think, I don't believe after all of that, but, uh, so where, where have you ended up through this conversation?

[00:35:23] Joe White: I've ended up at is Broadway, our target audience for business. And is. They get together alive our vehicle for getting connected to in front of, and getting our name out to the people that will help us close, win and succeed inside of that business. I don't like going before the conversation. I don't know if that's what I thought we were doing with the get together live.

[00:35:50] Joe White: Oh, I see. Like specifically like Broadway live streams as the output. Um, 

[00:35:56] Jess Ryan: so let me ask a follow on question then. And so to that end, [00:36:00] like what would you, what are you thinking about, you know, and then the next couple of weeks like that you would want to do, um, from your perspective, in terms of trying to figure out the answers to those two things, 

[00:36:12] Joe White: um, At the slate of upcoming, uh, Broadway specific shows.

[00:36:21] Joe White: And maybe we actually have a conversation about whether or not it's theater more generally, um, as a way to make the short term viable. Um, but yet to build a model of revenue that is aspirational, but real. Yeah. So it's like, Hey, this could really happen in this revenue could really come through and really sustain us.

[00:36:43] Joe White: Um, And then if that's true and only if that's true, the game plan around how to expand the. Panel and or audience sounds like it's panel first and then audience of the get together live. [00:37:00] So the number of people that are interfacing with it, that either are part of that community that will connect us to the business that we were trying to win, or that will help us to get the content in front of the community of people who will make the decisions and help us get the business that will help us win.

[00:37:17] Joe White: Yeah. That's the sequencing that I see. And I think like back to your point about, um, I heart, like that sort of fits into that second bucket of things. It's like, oh, does that help us get in front of the right people and, and act as a incentive for getting the right type of people into the show itself, such that those, um, Broadway adjacent or Broadway immersed people are now on our show, talking about it, sharing it out and getting us in front of other people.

[00:37:46] Joe White: Of that specific avatar that are going to help us win business inside of a Broadway live stream. It sounds like 

[00:37:52] Jess Ryan: we have a lot of work to do. 

[00:37:54] Joe White: Always, always, never enough time, always so busy, never ends. Oh my goodness. Like [00:38:00] always, there's just so much fun. It's so nice to get to talk to hang. And we're really grateful for you for listening and for being part of the get 

[00:38:06] Jess Ryan: together.

[00:38:07] Jess Ryan: As you know, the goal of this podcast is to bring people together and have these important conversations. So, you know, share this with someone who is cranking out content and needs a little inspiration for how to. Translated into commerce. Uh I'm Jess and I'm Joe. And we'll see you back here next week. .