Jess Ryan 0:08 Oh, hi. Welcome to Tech Theatre: Clubhouse Conversations, where we have conversations around conversations about the conversations we just had on the clubhouse app. Joe White 0:17 This is a podcast to continue that conver-ception because every Tuesday on clubhouse we have these amazing discussions with brilliant people who sit at the intersection of technology and theater. Jess Ryan 0:27 We always walk away from these clubhouse talks with so many thoughts. There's only an hour, we can't get to everything, it inspires new thought. And so we decided to make a podcast, share those thoughts and reach even more of our friends and collaborators. So hey, I am Jess CEO and co founder of Broadway Unlocked. My background is in the theater. And I love connecting it to technology and the internet and all that jazz. Joe White 0:50 And I'm Joe, co founder of Broadway Unlocked with Jess over here. And I've been building and operating startups for over 10 years. So I try to bring a tech and media perspective to these conversations. Jess Ryan 1:00 And so with that, welcome to Tech Theater. This week on clubhouse we talked about a lot of stuff. We talked about the casting announcement for the upcoming wicked feature film, specifically an LA Times article detailing why it's so important that Cynthia Erivo , a black woman, has been cast as Elphaba. So exciting. We also continued our ongoing conversation about the impact and validity of digital theater, something that comes up super frequently in clubhouse and on this podcast, but this week, it was in response to a piece of news, an American theater article, which claimed that most theaters during the pandemic saw low box office numbers and don't- their audiences didn't see the value and continuing virtual offerings in the future because they didn't enjoy it. We we brought that up because I got into a discussion on Twitter with the little contingency of really smart people talking about digital and virtual theater. And I think the consensus was we all call a little bit of BS on this survey, I love you American Theatre, longtime subscriber but Yikes. So, Joe, where are we starting today? Joe White 2:11 Can I start with my embarrassing reveal about the fact that I have never seen Wicked? And even worse, like I didn't expose this on clubhouse, I thought it was Elsaba. With an s this entire time. Jess Ryan 2:23 Why? Joe White 2:23 I have no idea. I know nothing about this show. And I only hear things about it tangentially. So So Dear everyone out there. That's Elphaba, E L P H. Not Elsaba, E L S. Maybe like Frozen got into my head, wasn't one of the characters there like Elsa or something like that. Jess Ryan 2:24 Oh Elsa. Yeah. Oh, dear. Joe White 2:46 So that's where I'd like to start. Just get that off my chest Jess Ryan 2:48 I actually got to see- Wicked like, as a musical is not usually my jam. It's like not the thing that I'm really excited about. But a friend came in town way back when and got tickets and invited me to go, I don't think I would have gone otherwise. So I actually got to see the original cast, which was pretty cool. Joe White 3:05 That is pretty cool. Wait, so why wouldn't you have gone and I'll preface this and maybe call you out? Or I'll put you in a box and then you can fight your way out. So across the conversation, we were talking about how you know the the source material of Wicked, The Wizard of Oz is super accessible. And one of the beautiful things about the play Wicked is that fancy theater people go see it. Regular old people like me might in theory go see it one day. But that it doesn't sort of box anyone out but maybe right now Jess is about to tell us that she's a theatre snob and that Wicked is not for the people with the good taste in theater. Jess Ryan 3:41 I'm going to give you a mixed bag of answers. One I'm 100% of theater snob period, the end? Or I don't know I just have very strong opinions and tastes. I would say their well earned and well developed tastes that are very singular to me, right? I've seen arguably more theater than most people my age in my entire life. Right? And so it's not like I have baseless opinions about it. And but it's certainly just to my taste personally, right? And I tend to be more excited about things that break form and music- I don't know just just not like Wicked type musicals, but to continue Yeah, not and fighting out my box. I'm like a cat in a box. I'm like, this box is awesome. This box best. Joe White 4:27 Like a cat in a box, if we had like a merch department that would be on a t shirt. Jess Ryan 4:33 No, I wouldn't have ever gotten to see Wicked I don't think had I not gotten that ticket. But what I was going to say is that I really enjoyed it. Funnily enough, I some of the casting was not my favorite in the entire world. Ooh, don't tell. Joe White 4:46 Do tell that's what we're here to talk about. Jess Ryan 4:47 But no, I really- of the original cast, but I really enjoyed the show. Actually, I don't remember a ton about it now cuz that was a long time ago. But I remember really enjoying the choreography a lot. And the ensemble was just phenomenal and I'd really like the music. So I really liked it. Joe White 5:04 You heard it here first folks. Jess Ryan 5:06 You fuck face trying to trick and trap me into a box. Joe White 5:09 A glaring recommendation. Jess Ryan 5:10 Meow. Joe White 5:12 Meowing into a mic is super weird. But Lucie I look forward to when you're in New York and we go see the Wicked with Elsaba, my new favorite character. Jess Ryan 5:22 Well, you know, you have to fill me in a little bit on this part of the conversation because I was at home this morning waiting for the Internet to be fixed. So I missed a little bit of this. Because my take- I just heard a little bit of Jermaine saying how excited he was. I'm pretty fucking like, this is the version of Wicked I really want. You know, like- Joe White 5:42 Would you like an invite to when Lucie and I go see it? Oh, just kidding. It's gonna be the movie. Jess Ryan 5:45 But it won't be them. Yeah, we'll have to go see the movie. But this is- I don't see musical movies very often. This this casting I will be fuckin going to see this movie. Joe White 5:54 Wow, even Broadway snobs are gonna go see this movie. Jess Ryan 5:56 You are so rude. Joe White 5:59 I'm killing it. Yeah, so what you said before? Got me thinking about it sort of the the casting choices and I was trying to get you to elucidate that a bit. But that's actually I was gonna use the transition for what Jermiane educated me on across this because I knew nothing about Wicked prior to this clubhouse conversation, so there's a recommendation for anyone who wants to learn about musical theater that knows nothing about anything. Jermaine is an amazing like, teacher recap or storyteller. He just so good. So props to Jermaine Blackwell. Jess Ryan 6:35 And by the way, quick pause. I don't know if you saw clubhouse just released a new feature that we don't have quite yet, I don't think because they're rolling it out. But it's replays. So like, soon you'd be able to go back and listen to Jermaine. Talk about his opinions on the casting of Wicked. Joe White 6:49 Damn, I feel like we like missed out this week by not having that. He was really good this week. And I'll do a really poor job summarizing right now. But one of the things I've learned about the show is that the the role of Elphaba is a of woman of color. Jess Ryan 7:02 Greeeeen. Joe White 7:02 But in this case it is just literally green. But it's so much about the fact that it's someone trying to fit into a society that doesn't make space or have placed for them is a essentially poor summarization of a really eloquent thing that Jermaine said. And I just had no idea that was even part of the subject matter or the context of the musical because I again, had no idea what it's about. Jess Ryan 7:25 Yeah and being marginalized and being an outsider and yeah. Have you read the book? Joe White 7:29 Nope. Jess Ryan 7:30 Oh my god. The book's pretty good. Joe White 7:31 It sounds great. I'm like actually really excited to go see and to learn more of this story. And it put into context for me now understanding a little bit more about the play itself. Why it's so important that this casting is happening for the movie. Jess Ryan 7:45 Yeah, it's huge. Did you guys talk about like, one black Elphaba? One? Joe White 7:51 Yes. Jess Ryan 7:51 One! It's basically the hardest singing role in the musical theater canon for a belter. There- how- one, like unconscious bias. There's nothing there but unconscious bias, there is no possible excuse to explain that away. In a how many, we're almost I don't know, is it 18 years now? 15 years, this musical has been running? Joe White 8:11 Yeah. How many? Like shows, versions of this are out there with white women playing this role? Like is this like hundreds, hundreds of castings happening in a single? Jess Ryan 8:22 Well, because they I mean, I don't know. Like, let's let's assume they have somewhere between five and 10 companies that are on like pink contracts or the equivalent of which means multiple national tours, international tours, West Ends that you know, like blah blah blah across all of these years plus like every I don't know, is it licensed? Can you license Wicked yet? Actually don't know the answer to that. So it might not be hundreds but too many across too many years for there to have been one freaking African American Elphaba. Joe White 8:51 It's pretty wild. Jess Ryan 8:52 That's fucked up. Joe White 8:53 Yeah. I don't remember anything else Jermiane said now I'm blanking on it all. We just need to get him on the podcast. Jess Ryan 8:57 It's true. He did say, I walked in when he was saying and hopefully I will get to sing with her someday or maybe stand behind her and step touch. Joe White 9:08 That is right when you came in. Jess Ryan 9:09 Yeah I felt that. That was like me too. She's amazing. Joe White 9:14 Yeah. So with this conversation, you know, we talked a bit as well about like the other roles that were in there. The fact that Ariana Grande is is going to be part of the movie which I you know, an Ariana Grande fan, love love all of her music. You know, the one one song that I know. Jess Ryan 9:30 I'm excited about her too. I mean, don't get me wrong. Kitchen, love her. Amazing, incredible performer truly. But like, again, the this is part of why I don't think I would have ever seen it, like the unimaginative casting of a white woman with dark hair as Elphaba and a little tiny blonde woman as Glinda. Like, I'm just like, not into that. It's just like not my bag and now we've had blonde Glinda I mean, they've done a little better with Glinda across the years, like I am here for Ariana Grande as a Glinda. She's- that Glinda's gonna be spicy and quirky. And gonna sing her face off. I'm so excited. Joe White 10:07 Heck yeah. And we're I wanted to get us to as well was the petition against James Corden. Jess Ryan 10:16 Poor James Corden. Joe White 10:16 I said this in clubhouse that I am like, on that side of the fence of like, yeah, no, he shouldn't be in this and I have no idea why I have no real- Jess Ryan 10:24 Oh my god he was a Broadway actor before like he was any- Joe White 10:27 Yeah, my only tether to James Corden is that he was in a an arc on Doctor Who, a few years back the Matt Smith seasons. That's it. That's all I know. James Corden, really. But I hate him, it seems. Just like I have a feeling connected. I have no idea why. Jess Ryan 10:41 How did he end up being such a divisive character. I don't understand. He's like, just generally nice and charming. And like, pretty funny. Joe White 10:50 I've got I've got literally nothing. It is genuine confusion. Like why why that part of the Internet has seeped into my opinions of this person that I just like, I have nothing to, like no basis from which to judge. I have not consumed anything. Except this Doctor Who stuff back in like 2015. Jess Ryan 11:07 Do you think he starts these himself? Like starts the petition to get James Corden off of Wicked? Joe White 11:16 I feel like that would likely make make me like him. I can't really say more. Because I don't have again, I have established that I don't have a basis from which to judge. Yeah, like him more that he started a petition against himself. Jess Ryan 11:26 Yeah, he was in the was it the history History Boys? What the fuck was that play called? Yeah, he's like a proper theatre actor. It's whatever. I didn't see him in Cats, though. Maybe he really screwed the pooch in Cats, if you know what I'm saying. Joe White 11:40 I just got the best wink from across the office. So bad, so good. So I know amongst the younger generations, let's just, let's just put this on Gen Z for a second. Jess Ryan 11:53 The yoot. Joe White 11:53 The yoots. That they find, you know, people like Lin Manuel Miranda to be kind of cringy. And, and cheugy, if you will. Jess Ryan 12:04 Cheugy, I don't know that one. Joe White 12:06 So it was a term that was going around quite a bit maybe like six months ago, but was sort of like coined and popularized a long time ago. That's just when it sort of hit my spheres. And it's used mostly as a pejorative from Gen Z and younger generations and sort of poised as this sort of battle between generations of Gen Z, kind of making fun of millennials. For all these things, these trends, these lifestyle trends that are associated with millennials and Millennial culture that are kind of deemed to be like, not cool anymore, or trying too hard, or were formerly trendy. And so there's like tiktoks, and blogs and all these things about these actions that are kind of like coded as millennial that are like, just not cool. Jess Ryan 12:45 Can you use that in a sentence, please? Joe White 12:46 Ugg boots are cheugy. Like it's meant to give you a visceral feeling. It's like a thing or an action that is typified by being part of like a millennial generation usually like the the 2010s is, I think when it's referencing, and it's just like, oh, yeah, like, that's so cheugy. Like, yeah, like, T shirts that say like, don't talk to me before I've had my morning coffee or whatever. Like it's one part kitsch, one part eh. Just trying too hard, cheugy. Jess Ryan 13:16 Well it's like the cycle generational cycle, isn't it? This is a great reminder that it- for us too the things that we get pissed about on here and you lose all the generational context between generations. Right? So for someone my age, Lin is the example of someone who fucking pounded the pavement for decades. I remember that Hamilton mixtape going around, and no one knew who, you know, we were like, What the fuck is this guy? Joe White 13:42 And the origins of Freestyle Love Supreme. Jess Ryan 13:44 Right exactly. And, you know, that's for my generation, but now we're too far removed from that. And he's been in the limelight for too long. And to be fair with a bunch of dudes and like all the things that are like kind of the worst, you know what I mean, even though he you know, is worked really hard to be where he's at. So it's it's interesting. It's, it's good to remember the generation- like, soon Lucie, you, too, will have a generational cycle where people younger than you are going to call you dumb and old. And why do you like that? Joe White 14:15 Lean in. Jess Ryan 14:18 Lean in. Lucie 14:18 I can't wait to be dumb and old. I look forward to it. Jess Ryan 14:23 Oh, man, we've gone far afield today. Joe White 14:25 Where are we? No, I took us here. I'm sorry. Jess Ryan 14:28 You did you're in charge of that part. Okay, well, then let's go to the second half of the conversation when I was actually there. Joe White 14:33 Let's do it. Oh, I wanted to talk about Hollywood intellectual property, but I don't really care. Alright. I think we've talked in the past for longtime listeners to the podcast about Hollywood's- it's not really an intellectual property problem, but it's just like, Hollywood's a machine. It cranks out movies, makes money and they need a bank of content from which to pull to create these and they often will pull from places with existing fandom. To have a built in audience for their Mega, massive blockbuster hits. And we talked about like how anime I think anime is going to be a trove of future Hollywood content. But I hadn't thought about the fact that Broadway and musical theater is a large trove of content to be transformed into Hollywood blockbuster movies, as is evidenced by Hamilton and now Wicked and In The Heights and all these other things. And Jermaine said very smart things about the sort of revolving door between Hollywood and Broadway and how, you know, Broadway used to be the sort of epicenter of culture that then Hollywood would take from and now it's sort of influencing back the other direction. And now it's kind of just going back and forth. Like there's, I'm not really sure about the specific numbers, but I think Hollywood is just like a bigger entity in terms of money making capabilities. Jess Ryan 15:47 Yeah, for sure. Joe White 15:48 So feels like it is grabbing, stealing from wherever it can find to create its content. And I was like, oh, like Broadway has done an excellent job of baking in and building these audiences. And Hollywood can take them and grow them further. give people different ways to engage with the content. Go see Wicked again. Because Ari's in it. I saw it. You got psyched about it? You were the use case. Jess Ryan 16:11 I am so psyched. I know. Isn't that funny? Back to your like what you just said about budgets and revenues? Like what you just said makes the- well now I'm actually kind of connecting this to the next topic, which is the people who say, there's no like market in screens, theater on screens? Well, I think Hollywood would beg to differ if there's enough money in revenue potential in these musicals, the filmed ones right. That are released, wide release. And these TV live ones like the Annie Live that's coming up, like, for better or for worse, they're not- the live ones aren't my favorite thing in the world. But there's clearly enough people watching for advertisers do feel like it's valuable to throw their advertisements on it. So I might suggest to the people, we haven't put on blast yet, because we haven't talked about this part of the clubhouse conversation. But I might suggest, when we're done with it, that you might want to look at how you're capturing that theater and what you're offering to your audiences as a potential source of the problem. Not just theatre doesn't belong on screens. Joe White 17:09 Great segue. Jess Ryan 17:10 Thank you. Joe White 17:10 Do you want to give us a quick summary of that American Theatre article? Jess Ryan 17:13 Um, well, it's not we didn't really talk about the whole article. But there was a survey of 547 people, which first of all, I thought that was really interesting. They said, you're like, check the premise. Why are we doing statistics around 547 people surveyed, of whom only 64 responded. So now, so like, I'm prefacing this friends that are listening with like, there's this American Theatre article being passed around this week, as like the word on virtual theater and the word on virtual theater because of course, it's an American Theatre article, which is a very important publication in our industry, is that of the 64 people who did respond to this. The majority found that they lost money on virtual theater and that their audiences didn't find it satisfying. So like to the point you made in clubhouse. I don't even know why we're talking about this and I can't believe- like it's it's really like indicative of what's scary about, well scary to those of us who are very invested in, I guess, the accessibility of theater. It's scary about like bad reporting. You know what I mean? Because it's like, it's not, that's useless, that is actually useless. 64 people out of the entire American theater, most of whom made some kind of digital theater last year, or virtual theater. Like the results of that just don't they're not they don't matter, right. But anyway- Joe White 18:38 Let's let's do the quick meta analysis then, let's let's not give it more oxygen. Let's tear it the fuck down. But I just want to read like the, what is this the byline on it? Or is this the headline? That's the headline, "The Jury is in on Virtual Theater". So it positions itself as like an authority on this topic. But then it gives you hold on. Do the math. [drumroll] Jess Ryan 19:00 That was funny. Joe, you did- that was great. Joe White 19:01 I told you I'd do comedy today. 64 out of 547 members of TCG is only 11 point like 7% of them. So they're saying definitively that the jury is in based on Yeah, 11% of people responding to their survey. And we made the the sort of the Yelp comparison that, Who the hell's leaves, Yelp reviews, it's like people who are real pissed off and they're motivated to leave it or people who are really really excited or maybe just weird and they like leaving Yelp reviews, but there's like a bias towards either negative or really, really positive, but mostly towards the negative. So it's not that surprising to me that a lot of the people who chose to respond did so maybe with an axe to grind, and I do think it's a bit irresponsible of American Theatre and this author whose name I'm not gonna say on our podcast, not gonna dox- Jess Ryan 19:59 She who shall remain nameless. Joe White 20:01 You can go find it yourself. It's a public byline. It's doing a disservice is actively putting misinformation out there. This isn't necessarily a representation of what's actually going on. And now a whole bunch of people are going to read that byline on Facebook on Twitter, not read the article, and then just like have their opinion made for them. Jess Ryan 20:21 Right. Because the jury is in Ah, well, that's frustrating. Joe White 20:24 The jury is not in! Jess Ryan 20:26 Says we! Joe White 20:27 That's the title of the episode, Lucie. Jess Ryan 20:28 I will say what I thought was fun about this was so Lucie, you picked this article as part of the lineup this week on your own. And on my way into the office today, I was just checking in on Twitter and found a really big thread about this with like, kind of the group of folks that I follow that are all sort of invested across the different facets of virtual or digital theatre making, and what I thought was really neat about it. And I would love to hear your thoughts about was so last month in the Show Report, which is this cool newsletter that we put out once a month, just like looking at the future of live theater and digital performance and audiences and all of that good stuff. Last month or two months ago, I guess, you and I, we looked at the product adoption curve for technology products. Joe White 21:16 Yes, we did. Jess Ryan 21:17 Yeah, we did, which, like hi BFA in tap dancing over here was like, What is this? This is so cool. And what we realized, as we were looking at that to write this newsletter article was that we were basically trying to convince people, I mean, it's true, right that we got- like we are the the place early adopters come to right, we are the company that they come to, to make digital live experiences. And what we found when we looked at the product adoption curve is that really those all those early adopters who were our customers last year, probably wouldn't have been an early adopter, if COVID hadn't happened. They were really the early majority, maybe the late majority. So they're basically like two or three segments of customers in to adopt, but COVID kind of forced them to do it earlier to be braver, right, to be more- take more risk in their minds with with this. Joe White 22:13 To jump the chasm Jess Ryan 22:14 Yes, to jump the chasm. Joe White 22:16 Yeah, and as quick backstory, for those who don't know it, the product adoption curve breaks potential customers or consumers into these big bucketed categories based on their behaviors. And there's a bunch of people who are just going to try things just to try things, they're excited, they're adventurous, they're going to mess around and sort of work through the bugs work through the kinks. And then there's a huge gap between those people and the next groups of people who are like, not as adventurous, not as risk taking, not going to jump that chasm between those two groups. And actually experiment to try something new before it is polished before it is packaged to them in a way that they understand before the results are proven. And so jumping, that chasm from those people who will give you the benefit of the doubt that will mess around with your buggy product to the people who are not, is really hard. And it's a place that a lot of companies struggle. And as Jess was just saying, and now I'm just reiterating what she said, COVID forced a lot of those people to leap that chasm, become those earlier adopters. Because there was nothing else that they could do. They had to, they were forced by an external force to actually just try things and experiment things. And we think some of those people are going to stay with us and continue to experiment and to have- feel like the use case has been proven for live digital and live digital performance and the extension of in-person performance to a digital audience. But some people are going to retreat back to their comfy safezone, the early majority is the technical term for this cohort. And they're gonna go back and be like, Yeah, we tried that. We're scared of it. Jess Ryan 23:41 We scared of it. So what I like, to go back to what I thought was really fun about the Twitter thread and this today, was that- learned about this concept via Joe, right? And applied it to our customers and our collaborators for an article a couple months ago. But then today, when I was reading through that Twitter thread, there was not a small amount of people who of course, were just like, they're haters, virtual theater's awesome. This is just- they're mean, you know what I mean? Joe White 24:08 Sounds like productive Twitter conversation. Jess Ryan 24:10 Yeah exactly. And so my head immediately went to this and I thought, Oh, what, this is an exciting chance for me to think more critically about what is the actual problem with this article. And I immediately- Joe White 24:21 Jess, my heart. Jess Ryan 24:21 Yeah, I was like, full on trying to do my best Joe White impression. And I was like, Okay, I think the issue with this, in a more specific nature, is that they surveyed people who were not, are not early adopters, right? Like, that's what we learned when we looked at it with our customers. These are early majority, late majority people who got just forced into doing this. And in this particular application, it means those are people who have financial and geographic access to in-person and had it before. And as we know and talk about a lot here, that's not the main customer for virtual theater. Right, like they'll be at best late majority on to this probably laggards because they have full access to the in-person thing. You know what I mean? And then to your point how you're saying until a pack- product is really shiny, like until digital theater is really worked out and we know how to make really exciting shit. Joe White 25:19 Until Lin Manuel Miranda is talking about it, my mom's not gonna care. Jess Ryan 25:22 Yeah, exactly these the people that were surveyed are not the real actual customer or like the harbinger of the opportunity that exists. And so, you know, what I was saying when I was in this Twitter thread, and we talked about a little bit on clubhouse today is that like, I feel like this was just a little disingenuous and a little lazy. Because it didn't really survey the the people or the behaviors that are gonna tell us something valuable about the growth and the Genesis and the growth of this as we start to reset, and it's a real viable branch of theater. Joe White 25:59 Yeah, I want to read that article that you just described. It's like breaking this down into those buckets and talking about Hi, we heard from 64 people and we think they're not ready yeah, that doesn't mean that this isn't a viable opportunity. Jess Ryan 26:12 Yeah, well, I said on Twitter I hope we do better moving forward in the future you know, cuz I think it's really it's at - that's that articles apples and oranges. It's not, it's just not helpful. Joe White 26:24 Agreed. Jess Ryan 26:24 But the good news is you can't- or one stupid article's not going to stop all these wildly creative people who are trying to push this industry forward, and you're going to succeed. Right? So that's, that's pretty cool. I think that's great. Joe White 26:35 Yeah, we're certainly not stopping so just wait for us to be profiled in American Theatre for the the other perspective on this. Jess Ryan 26:43 Hey, also, as a side note, just so y'all know, when we did that show report about product development, or product adoption and the chasm as Joe was talking about, because I'm just a child, I photoshopped a picture of Donnie Wahlberg jumping in Blue Bloods and then put him jumping over the chasm and made a comparison to a New Kids on the Block concert. Cuz I'm a child again. I thought it was funny. Joe White 27:10 I missed that reference so hard, and Jess called me out. It was like, Why didn't you say anything about that part? Jess Ryan 27:18 It was so good. Joe White 27:18 I just don't get it. I still don't really get it. I tried. Jess Ryan 27:25 Ah Donnie Wahlberg. Joe White 27:26 Wooshed right over the head. Well, in the in the parlance of 538, one of my favorite podcasts, 538 Politics podcast. This is a bad use of polling. Jess Ryan 27:38 Oh, yeah. Stamp. I wish we had like a little graphic. That was like jam. Yeah, tech theater bad. Joe White 27:49 That was really good. I actually I encourage everyone on here to not read the American Theatre article. Didn't see that one coming, Jess. Jess Ryan 28:01 We have to know what we're fighting. You know what I mean? Joe White 28:03 Yeah. Well, if you actually, you know, now that you have the context, you have our perspective. Go Go take a read of it yourself. Jess Ryan 28:08 Yeah. Are we right? Are we wrong? Are we children, all of the above? Joe White 28:12 Let us know what you think. Keep this conversation going. Jump into that thread on Twitter that Jess was talking about, at the very least tweet at us @bwyunlocked and use the hashtag tech theater CH Jess Ryan 28:23 And then of course, come be a part of our next conversation Tuesday at 12: 55 Eastern on clubhouse. It's the tech theater room. We do the news of the week in technology and theater and we're excited for you to join us raise your hand jump in and share your thoughts. Joe White 28:36 And if you enjoy today's episode, we'd love it if you could rate us five stars on Apple podcasts and leave a review. Let them know that we have the best takes. Unknown Speaker 28:45 [singing] One two three four five stars. We get five stars today. Five stars. You are- that was bad. Joe White 28:53 That was my favorite one so far. Jess Ryan 28:54 Oh, yeah? And as you know, every single topic we talk about has been inspired by the articles we share every week in our company, Slack channel, and by all those smart thoughts of the people who joined us on our stage in clubhouse, so please join us. Twitter, clubhouse, wherever you want. And we'll see you next week. Joe White 29:11 Bye everyone. Jess Ryan 29:11 Hey, bye!