052622 === [00:00:00] Jess Ryan: Welcome to the get together [00:00:04] Joe White: well over the world, there are people thinking about and creating a future of live digital events and performances. [00:00:09] Jess Ryan: They're disparate innovators who are artists, tech, founders on profits and investors, and they need a place to gather and share ideas. That's what the guests gather is all about. [00:00:19] Jess Ryan: I'm just a theater creator who loves bringing people together around technology art and the internet. [00:00:25] Joe White: And I'm Joe, a tech and media startup bet with over 10 years of experience growing and [00:00:29] Jess Ryan: operating businesses. Thanks for getting together with us. Let's dig in. [00:00:44] Jess Ryan: Joe our conversation on the get together live this week was so much fun. [00:00:48] Joe White: I thought, I thought it was very fun and I've really enjoyed a world in which we bounced between the electrical production stage recordings proof for the attendance protocols. We were all over the place. It was great. [00:01:00] [00:01:00] Jess Ryan: It's true. It has become kind of a Motley crew of topics that we keep sort of coming back to and winding into like examining our own work. [00:01:07] Jess Ryan: Everybody that joins us. [00:01:08] Joe White: And I did all of our guests. Willingness and ability to just come on for the ride. Now, when they, they don't necessarily have a depth of experience with poeople, they're like, oh, I kind of get this and I'll tell you what I think and how I feel. And I hate it. [00:01:23] Jess Ryan: That's so true. It was. [00:01:24] Jess Ryan: I actually think that was, it was so present today in a way that I haven't really. Absorbed in previous episodes that like how valuable it is to have so many lenses on a topic like PO app. Right. And I'm talking like, The real, like what we love about the real meaning of diversity. We have technology, native people like you, right? [00:01:49] Jess Ryan: We have just straight up theater makers thinking about, you know, theater. We have big gaps in generations that join those conversations. We have obviously people from [00:02:00] different backgrounds, racially and with gender and sexuality. So like, Today in particular, I thought all of those different lenses and, and, and, uh, experiences really, really added to the conversation. [00:02:12] Joe White: It definitely did. And I especially love one specific example that was popping to me was as we were talking about PO apps, you know, proof of attendance protocols, little, little. Digital takeaways and memorabilia that people were like, I don't like this. I'm not into it. And then went on to explain how much they love memorabilia. [00:02:31] Joe White: And it's just like bridge this gap for me, it was like, oh, like it is 100% a technological barrier. It's the sort of slightly new, slightly scary, even though in this example represents the exact thing that this person was saying. They loved. I was like, oh, okay. Like that's, that's back to like one of those things I love to save. [00:02:49] Joe White: Like, what's the actual problem with the actual challenge that we're trying to solve. And then it's like, oh, the technological hurdle. It's not that we're trying to convince people that these things are fun and cool, you know, digital number billion, but the, the demand that I want, the [00:03:00] love is there. It's the tech hurdle. [00:03:02] Joe White: That's the hard part. So yeah, that was really enlightening. [00:03:04] Jess Ryan: Ah, that's so cool. I love that. Well, if you're interested in this topic, you can catch the, get together, live it's up on our YouTube. Um, that's youtube.com/broadway unlocked. And um, this episode would have been the May 17th episode that we are referencing. [00:03:20] Jess Ryan: So it's a pretty cool conversation and, and, uh, you'll have to let us know if you enjoy it, but we're not talking PO apps here today. Joseph Thomas White, the third. Do you guys know. Actual name ever. I don't think it's ever been said that's his name? [00:03:37] Joe White: Oh, interesting. All of the, uh, the, get the, get together fans, Stan. [00:03:43] Joe White: I'm going to go back through the archives and be like, well, you did say it that one time. I'm on episode six. [00:03:47] Jess Ryan: So it's true. It's such a good name. I just had to say it all out loud. It's really such a, we're talking about hybrid stuff today, but before you turn [00:04:00] this off, cause you're like Jess and Joe never shut up about hybrid. [00:04:03] Jess Ryan: It's a particularly interesting, I think topic today. We were asked to participate in this really cool conversation with Hoppin, which is a digital event platform that we use quite frequently. They were in New York last week, uh, doing a little bit of a road show and, uh, they asked us to speak about hybrid events and sort of the state of hybrid events. [00:04:27] Jess Ryan: Um, and thanks so much for those of you who joined us at the standard, but if you didn't, I thought it would be really interesting to chat a little bit more about that today in particular, I wanted to. Some are super specific, which is one of the sort of prep questions they had given us that I was really surprised to see and really glad to see. [00:04:45] Jess Ryan: Um, which is what was your definition of a hybrid event before the pandemic? Which of course is an interesting question for us because we were doing this way before, unlike a lot of companies. And how has your definition changed since which I feel like is another [00:05:00] like really good question to mine for us. [00:05:03] Joe White: Oh, that is really, really fun and really, really good. I love. Thought up, these questions drafted these for, for us and the other speakers before this event, like kudos to you to shout out. Cause that's a great question. And it's a great way to think about this challenge because I feel like so many people would answer that first question. [00:05:21] Joe White: You know, what was your perception of your definition of a hybrid event before the pandemic would be? I didn't have one. I wasn't thinking [00:05:29] Jess Ryan: so [00:05:30] Joe White: true, which is honestly like not too far off from, from how I would find them. I think my own answer to that question. Which is I wasn't thinking of it in terms of hybrid events, even if there were components that blended what was happening in person with a digital audience? [00:05:46] Joe White: I don't think I would've thought about it as hybrid or as blogging of those two audiences. I think I would have thought of it as, oh, this is a. No, no, no modifiers on that. Just an event, which is the emperor's event. And it has digital [00:06:00] components like Oak fun. You can do anything on your phone. You can download a thing there. [00:06:04] Joe White: Maybe someone is watching a live stream, but that the concept of a hybrid event hadn't materialized in the way that we now are privileged to be able to talk about and to be, have done a whole bunch of them. What about you? What was your sort of like. Before times definition or perception of a Hubbard. [00:06:21] Jess Ryan: Yeah. I had a, a similar sort of, um, first stop on this journey that you did, which was, I was thinking about, I mean, in 2013, but also 14, 16, 18, I don't know. I don't know if hybrid that word existed, like exactly like you were saying. Cause I certainly all I did every year was struggled with how to describe this concert. [00:06:45] Jess Ryan: And it was like the give back concert Broadway's first interactive live streaming benefit concert. You know what I mean? And like all these, like, so my God super clunky description. So like certainly. I [00:07:00] was thinking about hybrid as a concept in that, um, you know, we're asking a digital or inviting a digital audience to participate with us, but, um, definitely did not have the words. [00:07:10] Jess Ryan: So, um, that was, that was my first stop to, but I have to say, I think the answer to this question for me is actually one of the biggest surprises that's come out of our work and our company over the last two years, because. Had you asked me and you certainly did many times, even recently, you know, up to six months ago, what does hybrid mean? [00:07:34] Jess Ryan: I would have said you, you do something in person live, you create a live digital component of it, like make it accessible by digital audiences and then like add in some digital programming as well, so that you have parallel path experiences. And that really was my definition of hybrid the end and in my brain, there wasn't a lot of room for anything else. [00:07:58] Jess Ryan: And I think that's changed [00:08:00] enormously across, uh, in particular, the last six months as we've started to go back to everything to me hybrid now has a million choices like at base, it means something live for a digital and an in-person audience, but like whether that's live at the same time, you know, And you're engaging the digital audience in the broadcast live at the same time, but you've got a whole different digital team working recorded. [00:08:29] Jess Ryan: And then, you know, streamed live, uh, at a certain time for the digital audience only. I mean, there's just like my definition of hybrid has expanded so, so massively. And that might also just be because the technology's changed a lot recently as well. [00:08:44] Joe White: That makes a ton of sense to me. And I love like nested in my answer to this, this part of this question, I knew that the now times the present times, the stuff that you were just living to, which is hybrid is a big old blanket term. [00:08:55] Joe White: Now it doesn't mean anything because I mean, it's a whole lot of things and there's all these. [00:09:00] Some versions of it where it's okay. These things it's alive in-person and a lot of digital happening simultaneously, but now it's actually just a pre-recorded thing happening here and here and oh wait. It's. [00:09:11] Joe White: Yeah. Simulcasts and all these other terms are starting to pop up to explain the, the, the minute details between all the different ways that you can do this. And so I kind of like, cause. Early listeners will know. We were not the biggest fans of the term hybrid. You know, you won't want to play with words like blended and other things. [00:09:30] Joe White: So I'm glad that the concept exists to bring us all together around. Okay. We at least have like a pretty basic definition of like there's things happening in person. There's things digitally. Let's figure it out. Um, but it's getting more sophisticated and we're, we're defining new ways of doing it in terms around those for allowing the industry and, um, audience members to be able to communicate. [00:09:53] Joe White: Do [00:09:53] Jess Ryan: you think that well, there's, there's such obvious benefits to that because like, to your 0.1 size just [00:10:00] does not fit all in this world, but do you think there are, are obstacles that get introduced because it's, it is harder to put your finger on the. [00:10:10] Joe White: Sure. I think there's going to be a lot of confusion in the short term people just saying, yeah, it's a hybrid and you know, someone will carry their own assumptions to that word, expect a certain experience and then get something different and potentially be disappointed. And, you know, does that hurt the relationship between a brand customers or, you know, uh, a live performer and it's audience? [00:10:30] Joe White: Uh, so I could definitely see in the short term, a lot of the confusion when, you know, words get tossed around with, without a lot of care and different expectations being brought to those words. And then therefore those, those live live, uh, shows like performance is live events. What, so how are you defining hybrid? [00:10:46] Joe White: Um, [00:10:46] Jess Ryan: I think just what I said at the very beginning, right? Which is like a live experience that's accessible by in-person and digital audiences. [00:10:53] Joe White: I'm starting to think more about something that we talk about often, which is they knew that. A hybrid event is often [00:11:00] three events. And yeah, you were alluding to this a bit before with there's what's happening in person it's catering to and designing for an in-person experience. [00:11:09] Joe White: You know, it's just different. Like you have to think about it differently. Those people need directions to the venue, uh, in a way that the digital audience who is also alive and also there, and it also needs to be taken care of and catered to, and is. They don't need them. They don't need directions. They know they're not busting out Google maps. [00:11:24] Joe White: They just need a link in a URL to get to the platform or the environment or the zoom to attend. Um, it's so catering for those two audiences. It by necessity requires you to sort of think about it as, as two separate events for a little while. And then. All of a sudden there's this third event, which is the overlap of those two events that you just, you just plant it's. [00:11:45] Joe White: Okay. How now is the in person, audience interacting with engaging with overlapping, with experiencing the digital audience and vice versa. And what thoughtful moments are you creating and thoughtful experiences you're creating with both audiences, mind in mind now? [00:12:00] [00:12:00] Jess Ryan: Yeah, and I think sort of that. That, that path that you just carved out right. [00:12:06] Jess Ryan: Has so much room to color in, like in terms of the actual decisions you make. And I think that's something that I was thinking about a lot as I was prepping for this panel. Was that something you say frequently that live digital is a lot like the early days of social media, um, in that it's this whole, it's this medium and mode to deliver content and, you know, create connections with. [00:12:30] Jess Ryan: Customers and potential customers, um, bans, audiences, whatever it is. I think that's a really, uh, a check in the box for that justification that live digital, isn't just an event. Industry or earth or a vertical. Do you know what I mean? That it is, uh, whatever the fuck you call social media because to fill in that path can be as wild and complicated as, you know, amplify 2021, where [00:13:00] there is a ton of interactive stuff happening and two different pathways. [00:13:04] Jess Ryan: And we've got a huge team, but you know, if you follow your audience and your community first and make the live digital decisions afterwards for the hybrid event, Based on what they want and need. It can be as simple as like what we did for that association in Miami. Right. Which is, was literally all they. [00:13:23] Jess Ryan: Wanted or needed at that moment, the digital audience was a picture to watch and a way for them, the digital audience to, you know, create an identity and interact with each other. Um, and that didn't take a team of 15 people, right. It took two of us basically. Um, and, and that interactive, that overlap that you were describing was it as, also as simple, it turned out for them as just a couple of like acknowledgements and, and requests to contribute from the people on stage, you know? [00:13:54] Jess Ryan: Yeah. [00:13:55] Joe White: I like that this fits into to what you were saying before about hybrid being such a wide open word and a wide [00:14:00] open concept, because there are so many ways to do it. Right. Um, you know, the, the, the simple, simple, simple version, as long as it feels good, and it, it scratches the edge. If it's. Um, but yeah, even though it was really simple execution. [00:14:12] Joe White: Yeah. Count right there. They're in the category of hybrid and they are successful because they are providing what that digital audience and what that in-person audience needed in that moment. It doesn't always need to be the fanciest craziest, most complicated set up in the world needs to people, make them feel like they're getting some sort of value or some sort of benefit from the experience that they're. [00:14:34] Jess Ryan: Yeah, something you just said made me think that, I wonder if that's why I like live digital so much because so many right. Answers feels a lot like art and making theater, you know, there's just like always a million right. Answers as I frequently. That is [00:14:47] Joe White: a nice lens. Cause even with you brought up social media before as a, uh, medium for communicating and creating, like even in social media, which has reached a point of sort of hyper commercialization, Capitalism and all that good stuff.[00:15:00] [00:15:00] Joe White: You can still do. Interesting things on it. Even to today. There's like interesting, weird, fun things happening on Instagram, you know, which has been turned into an advertising platform within an inch of its life. Yeah. Cause like my, my brain was spinning around like, oh, is it only fun right now in live digital because it's early. [00:15:17] Joe White: And I was like, yeah, I think I feel hopeful that even as what works and what doesn't work starts to settle out, that there will still be creative ways to do new things and inspire people and connect people. And. And that feels good. [00:15:31] Jess Ryan: Totally. And I mean, that kind of goes back, right. Even to the way the technology boom moves the medium, because you know, some of, like I was saying a second ago, some of the, the expanded definition of hybrid it to me and my brain has so much to do with what's possible based on technology now. [00:15:48] Jess Ryan: Right. A year ago, there weren't live streaming studios to my knowledge. Where you could upload a prerecorded video and schedule it to go live. Right? Remember we spent so much time looking for a product like [00:16:00] that and now a stream yard has it, which totally opens up, you know, what a hybrid. Model could look like. [00:16:07] Jess Ryan: So, and I think we've only, I mean, right. It's the tip of the iceberg with technology in this space? [00:16:13] Joe White: Don't you think? I definitely do think it's going to be funny in a few years when we're like back in my day, you had to manually encode the video. [00:16:25] Jess Ryan: I feel that really hard. [00:16:28] Joe White: We should create like a time capsule version or a time capital episode, or at least like a, a time capsule article. [00:16:34] Joe White: It's like, here's the things that are currently annoying that we think will be fixed in the next five years and just scheduling a live stream like that would have been on that list six months. [00:16:43] Jess Ryan: Absolutely. I love that we should totally time capsule all this. I think that's really cool. [00:16:48] Joe White: Yeah. And then we can come back a year later. [00:16:50] Joe White: Oh, it could become like annual prediction, sort of a thing I enjoy when smart, interesting people do those. I hate when everyone else does it. So let's be smart and interesting. [00:16:59] Jess Ryan: There's no pressure [00:17:00] or anything, right. [00:17:01] Joe White: Predictions for 2023. [00:17:04] Jess Ryan: I have a question for you too. On this note, I got thinking about this, you know, I. [00:17:10] Jess Ryan: I can be so blind in some ways. And it's also a super power of course, but like just, you know, in terms of like getting really stuck on, like, I understand why live digital is important. I understand why you and I believe live digital is important, but sometimes I have a hard time is something you say often, like backing up to where everybody else is at. [00:17:31] Jess Ryan: I mean, that's not true. I can't, I can, but it's not my default position. You know what I mean? If that makes sense. And I'm curious, like why, if you had to guess here's a prediction, make a prediction. Why were, why are people showing up to write like this hop in events that we were at last Thursday w interested in a panel called the state of hybrid events, what do you think is on their minds? [00:17:59] Jess Ryan: And I guess this goes [00:18:00] back a little bit to like, what is this word and what does it mean? And you know, all of that good stuff. [00:18:04] Joe White: Yeah. That's a really interesting one. The definition of the word is going to settle out based on how people will want to use it. So like these people are going to join this event and by doing so inform what, what becomes hybrid. [00:18:19] Joe White: Um, but I think that coming in the first place that my brain went to was audiences and specifically audiences that were acquired cultivated communities built over the past two years when a lot of things just had to be digital by necessity. And while that's no longer the case, people are like, well, all those people who, you know, don't live in New York city that really enjoy interacting with my community or my brand or my performances. [00:18:48] Joe White: I still like them. They still like me. Why, why, why can't we keep this good thing going? Um, so I think that's like the biggest thing that's on people's minds right now. Yeah. Well, I've already kind [00:19:00] of been doing it. And now it seems that they're just more and more options and more and more pieces of technology and more and more things to be done. [00:19:07] Joe White: So let me, let me see what else is out there. Let me see what else I can do. Let me see how I can make this better or more interesting, but continue what I'm kind of already doing. Right. Cultivating audiences and bringing two people together regardless of where they are physically. [00:19:20] Jess Ryan: Oh, I see. I wouldn't have thought of that at all. [00:19:22] Jess Ryan: As like, how do I maintain the like, is that fair to say, how do I maintain the sort of like leg up I got during the pandemic with growing a customer base or audience or whatever. [00:19:32] Joe White: Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like a forever forward mentality. Like it's, I'm already doing a bunch of stuff and I want to keep moving forward and it seems like there's more different, better that can be done. [00:19:41] Joe White: Or can we learn? So let's go do it. [00:19:43] Jess Ryan: Oh, well then I really like I'm reverse engineering our narrative, but I really like, you know, the idea that I went into this panel with that, like the definition of hybrid is really vast and expansive. And if you really just need to use your community, that you're trying to cultivate grow, [00:20:00] maintain as your north star to make the choices. [00:20:03] Jess Ryan: Yeah. I feel [00:20:03] Joe White: like it comes back to. That idea that we talk about that the technology is cool, but it's what you do with it that matters. And that feels similar here. It's like, oh yeah, the, you know, quote unquote technology that is a hybrid event, you know, it's, uh, intellectual property, intellectual technology is only as cool is what you do with it and what people are doing with it. [00:20:22] Joe White: What we think. People should be doing with it is bringing people together, building communities, allowing people to see and interact with each other, regardless of where they physically are. You know, if you can be together in time, that's just as good. Sometimes even a little better than being together in person and in time. [00:20:40] Jess Ryan: Yeah. I really, I really, really liked that because it, it just, all, it all goes back to, I mean, a lot of the questions, right. That were sort of in our brief. Obviously are inspired by what's worrying people. Right. Which is how do you build a team to support a hybrid strategy? [00:21:00] This can be intimidating if you don't have like a massive team. [00:21:03] Jess Ryan: Right? How did you engage your two audiences? Like all of these things and it's, I mean, it's sort of like, you're we, the way we think of. You know is like your, um, curve you made that I've now referenced a thousand times when I was talking about how I was thinking about digital live digital content, you know, and the different kinds that you can make. [00:21:24] Jess Ryan: Well, it's kind of the same as a hybrid model, right? If you've got a huge community and they're digitally native already, and you got the. You've got the foundation and you've got the resources, like, of course we're going to be like, let's build that massive team. Let's make a TV show, but that has all the pieces of YouTube in it, right. [00:21:44] Jess Ryan: Where it's interactive and everybody's coming together and it's going to be big and complicated and you're going to need a ton of people. But if you're a small company, like the association again, right. Are smallish right by design. This association was [00:22:00] a. You just don't have, you can achieve the same effect, which is drive people to show up, make sure they have a great time and stay and that they, you know, give them something that makes them want to come back. [00:22:13] Jess Ryan: The next time you can do that with so much less, just like a good chat, a good fun chat and a couple of cameras. [00:22:20] Joe White: It makes me think of the success of podcasting too, which I believe is one of these. Early winners of what you're describing of it doesn't have to be the most insanely high production value. [00:22:32] Joe White: Like so many of the early podcasts that became successful are let's talk in, what did these two dudes have to say? And it's like, it's talking. It's so good. Yeah. And like I have two dudes talking podcasts that I still enjoy to this day. Um, and you know, production values and style and composition of podcast has changed, but it still is like a pretty low lift way to engage an audience.[00:23:00] [00:23:00] Joe White: If there is that connection and, you know, Having slightly lower, even just like, say audio quality, the lower production, or slightly less planning or scripting doesn't detract from the connection that that person might feel to the two dudes who were talking. Um, and I think that's like a beautiful lesson to keep in mind as we get more complicated and start engineering, different cooler, better, bigger weirder things with live digital and specifically hybrid events where you're, you know, again, taking two events and trying to figure out how to blend them together. [00:23:35] Joe White: To keep that in mind, if like, okay, don't get, don't get too distracted by the glitz and the glamour and the screens and the persons and the, the audio routing and all the fun things that are fun. Like, don't get me wrong. I really enjoy those problems and trying to build amazing experiences. Um, but to not lose sight of the human being that is, you know, on that screen or the human being that's in that room and what they want and how, how you get them to feel feelings and, and unlock that experience for.[00:24:00] [00:24:00] Jess Ryan: Yeah. And just to bring it back around, you know, as we sort of round this conversation up to, what is your definition of hybrid? I mean, I actually think that's. W w I don't know, you have to tell me if you agree, but my definition, my expanded definition of hybrid actually has come from not my brain, right. [00:24:18] Jess Ryan: That thought up doing this interactive live streaming concert, that I didn't have a name for. It comes from all of our clients teams who knew their community and their customers, or their donors the best and said, This is what we think they need. And that was, you know, the surprise of like, Hey, we're going to actually do something in person, film it and then do it. [00:24:43] Jess Ryan: Uh, a prerecorded live stream with the digital audience, you know, six weeks later. Oh my God, what? That'll never work. But of course it is, it worked right because no one knew their humans better than them. And they followed that as the [00:25:00] north star. And it led to all these other different, you know, variations and permutations of hybrid that we've experienced again, particularly in the last six months that have really. [00:25:10] Jess Ryan: Challenged us to think about. What it means and what it, what could be possible. [00:25:17] Joe White: Oh God, it's so exciting. So what you were saying before about how a lot of the language right now around hybrid is, is like mitigation strategies. You know, it's how and how not to do it wrong, or how, how are you? Are you super overwhelmed by how complicated and crazy this is? [00:25:32] Joe White: And do you need to hire someone to help you out? Like. I want to reframe the, the feelings around it to be like, this is cool and exciting and crazy. And there's so many things you can do and you have this great opportunity to get engaged with people who can't fit. Beat with you and like how exciting and cool is that. [00:25:50] Joe White: And of course it does come with all those problems that we mentioned earlier, and those problems do give us stress and keep us up at night. Um, but let's, let's, let's not start there. Let's start with [00:26:00] the bit of the positivity, but of the excitement. [00:26:03] Jess Ryan: We're just a couple of real Pollyannas over here. I'm not making fun of you though. [00:26:09] Jess Ryan: I'm serious. [00:26:10] Joe White: Oh, [00:26:12] Jess Ryan: I realized now you can't see my face. No, I'm S I'm a hundred percent serious because I feel the exact same way. It's [00:26:18] Joe White: amazing. All those difficult problems can always be surmounted by a positive attitude. Some pragmatism [00:26:26] Jess Ryan: it's so true. Well, this has been a lovely episode catching up and talking more about our really cool day we spent with happen last week. [00:26:37] Jess Ryan: Uh, thanks for listening and being a part of this. Get together. [00:26:41] Joe White: And like we say, every week, the goal of this podcast is to bring people together and to have these super important conversations. So we want you to share this one with someone who is thinking about hybrid, and maybe they're a little scared of it, but you want him to be excited and they're going to get excited by listening to this [00:26:55] Jess Ryan: will hold their hand. [00:26:58] Jess Ryan: I'm Jess and I'm Joe, [00:27:00] and we will see you back here next week.