3 Pagans and a Cat, Episode 002: Neo-Paganism and Sexual AbuseTranscribed by Quinn "QQ" Anne Ode: This episode contains trigger warnings for the following subjects: child abuse, neglect, sexual assault, ritual abuse, and the abuse of authority. Welcome to Neo-Paganism and Sexual Abuse, the second episode of 3 Pagans and a Cat. This is a special episode wherein we will be discussing very sensitive topics, and some upsetting recent news in the Pagan community.  If the topics warned for are triggering or distressing content for you, please do not listen to this episode. We care about you and want you to be safe. You may call me Ode. Car: You may call me Car, I'm Ode's father. Gwynn: And merry meet, I'm Gwynn, Ode's mother. Ode: So we're here today to talk about the recent accusations, uh, forwarded by Moira Greyland against Isaac Bonewits of sexual assault when she was a child. Gwynn: And one of the reasons that we decided to do this special episode is because Car is a member of the ADF. He - Ode (overlapping): He's on the Dedicant Path. Gwynn: He's on the Dedicant Path... Car (overlapping): Right. Yeah. Gwynn: He's on the Dedicant Path and it hit him very hard as someone who is new to the Dedicant Path and to paganism in general. Ode (overlapping): M-hm. Gywnn: We just felt like - as a family - we were discussing this and so we felt like we needed to address it on our podcast as well. Ode: To be clear at the very beginning here, none of us have read the full text of this book, and none of us intend to read the full text of this book although we have read excerpts from it. Gwynn: Yes. And multiple articles. Ode: And multiple articles. The reason we're not reading the text is because it is published by an alt-right figure whom we all find repellent and to whom we don't want to give any money. But if you want to read the full text of this book for yourself, it is called... Car: The Last Closet, The Dark Side of Avalon. It is available on Amazon, it's published by Castalia House which is owned by Theodore Robert Beale better know as Vox Day who is an alt-right asshole. Ode (overlapping): Yeah Gwynn (overlapping): A white nationalist trash. Car (overlapping): Yes Ode (overlapping): Yeah. That sums it up. Gwynn (overlapping): Pretty much. Car (overlapping): Pretty much. That pretty much sums it up. Gwynn and Ode (overlapping): Yeah. Ode: Got some of the most repellent beliefs imaginable. Car: Right. Gwynn: About all people groups who do not match his own. Ode (overlapping): Yeah. Car (overlapping slightly): And here's the deal, so like, I applaud Moira's courage. Ode (overlapping): Oh yeah! Gwynn (overlapping): Yeah! Car: And, and, and talking about this. Unfortunately because of the publishers that she's chosen for the book it's, it's tainted by his reputation, which is gonna make some people ignore it. Which I think is... Ode (overlapping): Yeah, that's, which is very very unfortunate Car (overlapping slightly): Right, which is very unfortunate. So we need to look past that, even though we won't buy it because we don't want to give them money... Gwynn (overlapping): Right. Ode (overlapping): We need, we need to be clear; we support Moira... Car: M-hm. Gwynn: Absolutely. Ode: She's, she's suffered tremendously from childhood, into adulthood because those wounds linger. Gwynn: And she's still being taken advantage of, honestly... Ode (overlapping): Exactly! Yeah. Gwynn: ...In our opinion, by the whole thing. Car (overlapping): Yeah. Ode (overlapping): Gwynn...Gwynn and I, Gwynn and I have discussed this and the, this particular publisher...and our feeling is that Moira's in a vulnerable position. She was put in a vulnerable position by vile people and she is still being abused emotionally by people who are using her for their political purposes. And that's tragic. Gwynn (overlapping): And I did think...and it is right for her to speak out. Ode (overlapping): Absolutely! Gwynn: I mean she was...I mean she kept silent for so many years, y'know, her mother was this famous author... Ode (overlapping): Was Marion, was Marion Zimmer Bradley to be clear. Gwynn (overlapping): Exactly. Car (overlapping): Yup. Gwynn: So uh, a huge novelist - Car (overlapping): Sci-fi. Gwynn: Sci-fi y'know... Ode (overlapping): Yeah. Yeah! An award winning novelist. Gwynn (overlapping): The Mists of Avalon series. Wide - worldwide acclaim. Car: Right and, y'know Marion had like the four huge tags of today. Y'know, she was pagan, she was a feminist, she was gay, and she was a sci-fi writer. Ode (overlapping): Uh huh Gwynn (overlapping): Exactly! So she was like the it woman of her day... Car (overlapping): Right. Gwynn: And y'know, to find out as a fan of her's, and as a fan of those books, to find out that she treated her children with such... Ode (overlapping): Contempt and cruelty. Gwynn (overlapping): Contempt and horror and cruelty...and sexual usery. Y'know it just, it boggles my mind, it breaks my heart. Um, and I...I commend Moira for having the courage in 2014 to begin sharing her story. Car: Right. Gwynn: I do want to point out though that... Ode (overlapping): Yeah the...there's a timeline here. Gwynn (overlapping): ...That there is a timeline here, y'know, Isaac Bonewitz was also a very uh, important figure - Ode (overlapping): Prominent.... Car (overlapping): In the pagan community. Yes, yeah. Gwynn:: - in the pagan community, in Druidry, um and...this was a huge shock and - and a ripple of just disbelief throughout the pagan community. Because of who he has been to so many people. And I do think that it's important to note that in 2014 she did not mention him in her...in her accusation. Ode (overlapping): Her accusations in 2014 were specifically against her mother, Marion Zimmer Bradley. Car (overlapping): Right. Gwynn (overlapping): Yeah, and her father. Car: Well her father had been earlier... Gwynn: Right. That's right. Ode (overlapping): Her father...her father she sent to prison ... Gwynn (overlapping): Right. Ode (continuing): ...for molesting uh, Kenny... Gwynn (overlapping): A boy... Car (overlapping): Right. Ode: A boy named Kenny. Gwynn: Yeah. Car: Yeah, who was 11. Ode: Who was 11 at the time of his assault. Gwynn (overlapping): And what bravery that took! Car: Yeah! Gwynn: My-my goodness. Ode: Uh huh. And so her father Walter Breen died in prison thanks to Moira's courage - Gwynn (overlapping): Courageous act! Car (overlapping): Yup, yeah. And she said the reason why she didn't come out about her mother was that so many people.... Gwynn (overlapping): Admired her. Ode (overlapping): Loved her. Respected her. Car (overlapping): Admired her, and her... Gwynn: Her work Car: Her work and that kind of stuff and so... Ode (overlapping): That she said she - she didn't want taint that.... for people. Car (overlapping): Right. Yeah, yeah. Gwynn: But I think there comes a point and, we have discussed this before, do we want to be taught and uh, admire a person who, on the surface, on her y'know presented to the world, this false picture, when her true character was - I'm sorry - truly abhorrent. Car: Yes. Ode: Uh huh. And, and I ... Gwynn (overlapping): And do we want to admire this woman? I don't. Ode: I think it's important early here, to address exactly what the accusations have been. Marion Zimmer Bradley is accused of child abuse, neglect, and sexual assault. Isaac Bonewitz is accused of sexual assault. Gwynn: And posthumously for both. Ode: Right. Both are dead, there is, as I understand it, documented evidence of..of Marion Zimmer Bradley's abuse and neglect. There is not documented evidence of Isaac Bonewitz's... Gwynn (overlapping): Alleged assault. I think we should say. Ode (overlapping): Alleged assault and um, there is some question over the events that Moira describes having taken place at the time she describes them. Gwynn (overlapping): When she claims to remember them. Car (overlapping): So this was in 1972... Ode: Yup. Greyland? Car: At a house that wasn't her's. No Greyland is her last name. It was Grey.... Ode: It was Grey-something. Gwynn: Greyson? Ode: It was Diana Greyhaven maybe...Diana Paxson's house. Car and Gwynn: Yeah Diana Paxon's house. Car: And, uh, so Moira said that happened in 1972\. Diana Paxson had come out and said that Isaac wasn't even here in '72...he was in living in Minneapolis... Gywnn  (overlapping):Because he did spend time at Diana's house ... Ode: He...he lived in Diana's basement... Gwynn (overlapping): He lived in her basement... Car (overlapping): In the late 60s. Yeah. Ode: Um, while he was writing Real Magic. Car: Yeah. Gwynn: And he probably and most likely did cross paths with Moira and her family at some point but not necessarily at that time. We think... Car (overlapping): Correct. Ode: Well we...we know, uh I believe its...I believe that Marion's... Car (overlapping):They saw at the pagan gatherings... Gwynn (overlapping) Gatherings. Ode (overlapping):Marion Zimmer Bradley knew Isaac Bonewitz... Gwynn (overlapping): Right. Car (overlapping): Yeah. Ode (overlapping): And the...the three families were familiar with one another. Gwynn: Right because they were, y'know, both Marion and Isaac were prominent figures of that time. Car (overlapping): Right. Gwynn: ...In the pagan community. Ode (overlapping): And so is Diana Paxon. Gwynn: And so was Diana... I mean they were...it was still a fledgling community within the United States and they...they were very large figures in moving that forward. Car: Right. I also want to point out that as...out of a book of 632 pages, Isaac is only talked about in 3 of them... Gwynn: And very vaguely. Car: And very vaguely. But the uproar with that has been huge! Ode (overlapping): Now, yeah yeah, we've read...we've read the excerpts from that section of the book. And she...she specifically says that she doesn't want to go into details about the situation Car (overlapping):Right. Right. Gwynn: And I think it's important to note that she was a 6 year old child at the time she claims this encounter or these encounters happened with Isaac. Um and her abuse started with her mother, and presumably... Ode (overlapping): When she was 3. Gwynn: Yeah, when she was 3, and presumably, my understanding is that other members of her mother's coven also participated in some of the abuse. And her story has been corroborated  as far as her, um, the abuse she experienced at the hands of her parents, has been corroborated  by her brother. Ode and Car: Yes. Car: By Michael yes. What this has done as far as the ADF is concerned is there's a huge uproar right now. Um, their first response was shitty. (laughs) They basically... Gwynn (overlapping): It was a panic response. Car: Yeah I mean their...their first response was basically 'Well Isaac hasn't been involved since forever. And...' Gwynn (overlapping): 'He was only one of the founders.' Ode (overlapping): It was just sort of...it was just sort of try distance him from the community... Car (overlapping): Right, 'Only one of the founders...' Right. Gwynn (overlapping): Yeah, distance him... Car (overlapping): Right. And the fact of the matter is like, the ADF is because of Isaac's vision. Ode: Yeah. Car: I mean that's the reason why it exists. And yes, he hasn't been involved in the day-to-day as the arch druid since 1996 and he's been dead since 2010, and this is just coming out. But whether it happened or not is immaterial to what needs to happen within - not just the ADF - but within the pagan community as a whole... Ode (overlapping): Moving forward.. Car (continuing): ...With some kind of thing where we can protect people who come into our community, who y'know...from predators! And we got to figure out a way to do that. Ode (overlapping): And to...to be clear, like, we're not even just talking just about protecting children here, a lot of the people who are just entering the pagan community are vulnerable to abuse by predators because they don't know what to expect coming in. Gwynn: And they're coming to someone who is either a mentor or into a coven, they...people who are in a position of authority over them. Who can use that authority to coerce them perhaps to do acts that they would not be interested in doing otherwise, but they don't know because they're new to paganism. Ode: Uh huh. Car: Right. Gwynn (overlapping): And I do think that is something that needs to be talked about. Ode (overlapping): And there...y'know they're starting...they're starting a new spiritual path, which is ... is a situation that leaves people feeling vulnerable and ... and it makes it more difficult for them to maybe assess how they feel about something especially if they are forced to make a snap judgement on it. Gywnn: The sacred sex...y'know these rituals, the uh, y'know the symbolic gestures that are included in like specifically in Gardnerian Wicca, which, Gerald Gardener created Wicca as a fertility religion. Um, and yes, it has evolved a lot since y'know... Ode (overlapping): Since Gardner's day. Gwynn (overlapping): And there many, many traditions since Gardener's day but that does still remain uh... Ode (overlapping): It's still Gardner's religion. Gwynn: It's still, yeah, and it does, y'know, remains a beautiful act as long as it is consensual. But if there's anyone anywhere within a coven, or a situation between a mentor and a student, where there's even the hint of coercion - even a hint of 'well you have to do this because it's part of the practice'.... that's just wrong! Car and Ode: Yeah. Gwynn: It's...it's just wrong and I think that we need to examine that. Ode: Consent trumps magic okay? Let's be very clear about that. Car: Right. Gwynn: It does, it's very important. Car: The ADF has been working on this for a while, there's actually a guy named Daniel Scott Holbrook who was a...a part of the ADF who in 2016 sent a picture of a young child to police officer and was arrested. He ended up pleading no contest and got 6 months probation which I think is a travesty. Ode: Yeah! Car: But that was kind of the beginning of the ADF going 'okay we've got to come up with something...' Ode (overlapping): Right, 'It's time to...' Gwynn (overlapping): 'We have to protect our members.' Car (overlapping): Right, 'We have to protect our members.' Ode (overlapping): ..'To investigate how we, as a community, are going to handle this.' Gwynn (overlapping): Right. Car (overlapping): Exactly. Ode(overlapping): Instead of just letting law enforcement do it. Gwynn (overlapping): And let's also... Car (overlapping): Right. Gwynn (overlapping): I - I think this, y'know, I'm going to say it even though it shouldn't need to be said. This is not just a problem within the pagan community, obviously. It is...it is a problem throughout our society and through multiple religions... Ode (overlapping): And all of history. Gwynn: And all of history. Car: Right. Gwynn: This is a issue. Ode: It's a human problem. Gwynn: It's a human problem. Car: Yeah. Yup. Ode: But since we know there are vulnerabilities in the pagan community... Gwynn (overlapping): We should address them. Ode (overlapping):  ...Its our responsibility as members of that community to deal with this and try to reduce those threats. Gwynn: Exactly! Car: Let's be honest, in - certainly in the United States, the pagan community is already somewhat looked down upon. Gwynn (overlapping): Yeah. Exactly. Car (overlapping): We're - we're seen as a quote-unquote "Christian nation" and so people look down upon the pagan community already... Gwynn (overlapping): They already think we're sinful. Car (overlapping): ...So if we wanna...basically all we're doing is throwing more firewood on the fire at that point and we need to be smart enough to handle this in the beginning and not at the end of things. Gwynn: Right. Ode: And with intelligence and empathy and ... Gwynn: We need to be actionary not reactionary. Ode: Yeah. Exactly. Car (overlapping): Yes. Ode: Every time this comes down to 'well there's already been a crisis' it's too late. We've fucked up. Gwynn: Exactly. Ode: It's...it's time to...to set things in motion so that we can start preventing this instead of dealing with the fallout. Gwynn: And I do think that we do have to acknowledge the fact that because of the way Gardner set up Wicca, it has left an opening, a door for predators that we have not addressed. Within the pagan community. Ode (overlapping): Yeah. Because...because we want to be sex positive. Y'know. Gwynn (overlapping): Yeah, absolutely! Car (overlapping): Right. Ode (overlapping): And I get that. And listen, I'm very sex positive, consent is part of sex positivity and I think it's a part that's not discussed... Gwynn (overlapping): Absolutely. Ode (overlapping): ...And explained... Gwynn (overlapping): Well, clearly. Ode (overlapping): ...Sufficiently to a lot of people. Because a lot of people don't understand that coercion invalidates consent. Gwynn: Absolutely. And clearly that's...it's a problem throughout our community, but also throughout our society right now. Ode (overlapping): Our society. Car (overlapping): Yeah. I mean yeah you're seeing it everywhere. Gwynn: With the... with the MeToo and the whole business of Hollywood and all sectors... Car and Ode (overlapping):Politics... Car (overlapping): It's everywhere. Gwynn: Politics, all of this, it's everywhere right now so it is a timely issue that we need to deal with. Ode: Mm-hmm. Car: Right, yeah. As far as what the ADF is doing, they have worked on a policy which is going to be... is actually the sexual misconduct policy is out. Um, they've released that. If you want more information on that, I will post a link to it in the notes for this episode so that you can get to it fairly easily. But just so you know, they oppose any form sexual misconduct by anybody basically - by their clergy, the staff, employees, volunteers, members...all of that. The policy goes into detailing what sexual misconduct is, how to report it, how it's investigated, and what the responses to it are. What we cannot do is throw out the baby with the bathwater. Gwynn and Ode (overlapping):Yeah. Car: There're going to be people who come into paganism who are coming out of prison... Ode (overlapping): Oh god yeah, this is very important. Car (overlapping):...Or who ... or who have a CSC charge; criminal sexual conduct is what CSC is. Ode (overlapping): Yup. And it's very vague. Car: It is very vague, if you pee in public behind a dumpster and you're caught... Ode: You have a CSC. Car: You have a CSC. So there's a lot of...like...really crappy...that's a .... Ode (overlapping): And, and you'll end up on the sex offender registry. Gwynn (overlapping): Sexual offender registry. Ode (overlapping): And so, y'know...when you do those checks and you say 'okay who are the sex offenders in my area they don't...they don't tell what the offense was...so it's impossible for you to know if you're dealing with an actual predator, or if you're dealing with an idiot who got drunk at the pub once and... Car: Yup. Also, the ADF is doing an entire training for consent for all of their clergy, for all their members of the Mother Grove - the Mother Grove is kind of like a hierarchy of the ADF. Regional Druids. And after that, after they're done, they're actually going to start sending it out  to Grove organizers - Senior Druids in particular areas, that kind of a thing. So that everybody will have this and they can train their members on this. Grove leaders can train their members on it... Ode (overlapping): Right. Car: They're also going to do a SWOT analysis. Strength, weaknesses, um.... (Long pause. Ode and Gwynn laugh.) Car: I can't believe it! Gywnn: He forgot it again! Car: I did! Ode: Opportunities... and threats. Gwynn (overlapping): Opportunities... Car: Yes, thank you! And weaknesses. Threats, yeah. Ode: Strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. Car: Just to see where the ADF y`know, falls into that. And they're actually going to send that out to all members. The entire membership is going to have a chance to... Ode (overlapping): Is gonna get...that assessment. Gwynn (overlapping): Right.  Car (overlapping): ... Put input into that. Which I think is great. Gwynn and Ode: Oh yeah! Car: There has been a huge reactionary thing where a lot of people have left ADF already just ... Ode: Just appalled? Gwynn (overlapping): Just appalled by it. Car: Just appalled and left but I think if you...I think the problem is, is that we're, again, throwing out the baby with the bath water in some ways, we can't overlook what Isaac is accused of. Ode: No. Gwynn: Exactly. Car: We cannot push it under the carpet, we can't ignore it.. Ode: Yeah. And you can't just walk away from it. Car: And we can't just walk away from it. Gwynn: No. Car: But we need to make sure that that what we have are positive responses to it. And I think the ADF is doing that. Gwynn: Yeah. Car: I'm still not sure where that leaves me, but at this point I'm leaning towards staying in. Um, if I see all the stuff they've talked about come to fruition. Ode (overlapping): Be-being carried out. Gwynn (overlapping): Right. Applied. Car: If I see the consent training come out, if I see the SWOT stuff come out, if I see all that happen I think I'll be okay staying in there. As a child who was sexually abused by a neighbor, and as the son of a sexual predator, y'know, these are... Ode: It's an issue very close to you. Gwynn (overlapping): It's very close to you. Car: Right. Yeah it's an issue that's very close to me and there's a reason why I never left my kids with my father. Because I didn't trust him. Gwynn: Yeah. Car: And..and I taught my kids how to ... Ode: Yeah I got extensive essentially self-defense training that I didn't understand as self-defense training when I was a child. Y'know, I thought we were playing games. Gwynn (overlapping): Games. Ode: Y'know my dad would hold my wrist and, um, teach me how to twist out so that I could break out of anyone's grasp at, like, a moment's notice. Had to do that with one hand, how to do that with both hands... Gwynn (overlapping): How to kick... Ode: Yeah, to...to kick and fight and claw and scratch and scream... Car and Gwynn (overlapping): And bite.. Ode (overlapping): ...And bite and make as much noise and cause as much trouble as possible. In case I was ever, y'know, grabbed or touched or made to feel uncomfortable by a stranger or a neighbor or anyone in the family. Gwynn: And we always, both Car and I, always encouraged our children to talk to us. Um, I was also a victim of sexual assault as a child, between the ages of 4 and 6\. A 16 year old neighbor assaulted me and um, at 4 I...I readily went to my parents and told them what happened. But at 6, when he came back.. because my parents believed me. They told his parents and he was sent away. But he came back 2 years later, supposedly "fixed" whatever...wherever they sent him... he hadn't been back a week I don't think, before I was cornered and groped and threatened and at 6\. And he made me feel guilty. Like I was the one who should be ashamed... Ode (overlapping): Like it was your fault. Gwynn: ...And it happened more than once and I did not tell my parents about it that time because I felt shamed. And he, y'know, that's what predators do. They shame their victims, they hold power over them in some way to keep their silence. And so that's one thing we always taught our children was to not be afraid to tell us what was going on in their lives. Or at least to tell someone they trusted. Car (overlapping): Right. Gwynn: A teacher, a friend, something - if something untoward were to happen. And I want to say that to people, because Car, y'know is talking about people who are involved in an organized group. With...with the ADF. Covens can handle this as an organized group... Ode (overlapping): As a coven. Car (overlapping): Right. Gwynn: But I myself am a solitary. Ode: Yeah. Gwynn: And there are many, many, many, many solitaries out there. And so right now, I want to speak to my solitary brothers and sisters...and say that, listen, if you are in a situation where you are unsafe or you feel unsafe with a mentor... Ode (overlapping): You have a bad mentor... Gwynn: Yeah, if you have a mentor who is pushing you into doing something you're not...you're not comfortable with, if something just feels off, please protect yourself and remove yourself from that person's presence. Ode: And I know that's hard and it's scary... Gwynn (overlapping): It is a very scary thing to do. Ode: But it is the most important step you can take. Gwynn: It is. Because you have to be safe and...and that takes, I know that takes strength that you may not feel like you have, but I promise you, you do. Car: Yeah. Gwynn: You have it. Ode: And you know what? If you don't feel strong, well I have news for you. There are a whole bunch of gods who'd be just delighted to kick somebody's ass on your behalf. Gwynn (overlapping): That's right. Ode: There...there are gods who explicitly their whole deal is fucking up racists. And...and rapists. Gwynn: Artemis hello? Ode: Yeah! And...and if you don't feel like you have the strength in yourself, somebody out there does. Gwynn: That's right. And you don't have to be at least, in my belief structure, you don't have to be personally associated with a god or goddess to ask their help. Ode (overlapping): You don't have to be a devote. Gwynn: If you are in a situation that requires their assistance, you can do that. Ode: I believe...I believe our gods are active forces in the world, they're paying attention, they're listening and they've all got very specific interests. Listen, somebody out there is interested in you. Gwynn: That's right. That's right. So just be safe. I think that's the most important thing that I want to say to solitaries just be safe. And if you are with someone who ... Ode (overlapping): Who's dangerous... Gwynn: Who's dangerous, who you feel threatened by even in the slightest way, emotionally, spiritually, or physically please please please remove yourself from that person's influence. Ode: Because let's be clear, if you're mentor is coercing you to have sex, or to preform blood magic, or to work with spirits you're unfamiliar with... Gwynn: Or uncomfortable with. Ode: Or to do literally anything in your spiritual practice that you're just not comfortable with and are never going to be comfortable with, that person is dangerous. Gwynn: They are a predator. Ode: They're not just pushing you, they're dangerous. And it's time to let go. Gwynn: That's right. That's right. They are abusing whatever authority you have allowed them to have. Car: So if you...if you want to read more about the accusations, about Isaac that can be found on thewildhunt.org. Gwynn: Which is an excellent article. Car: Yeah it really is. Ode (overlapping):Yeah it's very thorough. Gwynn (overlapping): It's very thorough... Car (overlapping): It's very thorough... the one part I think they leave out too much is about who its published by but...but there's also ... Gwynn (overlapping): Mm-hmm. But at least they touch on it. Ode (overlapping): Be...I will say, be careful going to the comments on that particular article. It gets vitriolic and pretty unpleasant... Car (overlapping): Yes. Gwynn (overlapping): Yeah. People are...people are... people are pretty, pretty wound up about this, understandably. Car: Yeah. Keep in mind if you read that article, you will see it that Isaac widow and uh, previous wife, wife number 4... Gwynn (overlapping): And son! Ode (overlapping):  Deborah Lipp... Car: Deborah Lipp, yeah, and his son Arthur Lipp-Bonewits have all come out and said this is not in... Gwynn (overlapping):  Character... Car: ...Character for Isaac. There's also an article on Patheos... Ode: There are several articles on Patheos. Car (overlapping):  ...By Lilith Dorsey who talks about a time when she was traveling with Isaac and how he felt so uncomfortable. Ended up in a place where there was terrible weather um, in New York and they had to pull over and get a hotel even though it was supposed to drive straight through. And the only hotel room available, because everybody else was stopping, was a one bed. They were not married or having any kind of relationship... Gwynn (overlapping): Right. Car: ...And they both ended up staying up all night. She, because she was nervous that there was somebody else in her bed because she's a survivor of sexual abuse... Ode (overlapping): She had been ... yeah Car: ...And Isaac, all night because he was afraid he would fall asleep and accidentally put a leg or a hand near her and would freak her out so he ended up staying up all night as well. Ode: She describes having felt very safe and respected during that...that event. Car: Yes, yes, Ode: It's...it's good to have these...these character references especially since Isaac is not alive to comment. Gwynn: That's what I was going to...to say. Is that while I, y'know, we have to take her account.... Ode: ...Seriously. Gwynn: ...And respect it, yeah, take it seriously...we also have to take into account that the man cannot defend himself, he cannot offer any kind of input into the situation, or even reparation if he were to admit that it happened... Car: Right. Gwynn: So I do think we do have to take into account that, what his widows, his son, and people that knew him very well, have to say about his character. Car: Right. Agreed. Ode: I do want to...make clear that my stance is, and has always been, that I ethically and morally must support the victim or accuser in this situation. As that person is the one in the most vulnerable place. And that is especially true in a situation like this where Isaac is dead and can be hurt no longer. Gwynn: That's right. Car: Right. Gwynn: And unless some kind of evidence comes to light.. Ode (overlapping): Yeah... Gwynn: ...That completely exonerates him, we do have to honor the fact that she is making these accusations and she believes them to be true. Car and Ode: Yeah. Gwynn: That's important and we have to...we have to support her. She's been victimized enough in her life. Car and Ode: Yeah. Car: Exactly. Ode: She is...she has been viciously, repeatedly abused. Gwynn: Yes. Ode: And is very clearly, very deeply wounded by this. Gwynn: Yes. Absolutely. Ode: And so, Moira has the full measure of my respect and support. Gwynn: Absolutely. Car: Agreed. Do wish she had picked a different publisher. Ode: Yes. Gwynn: Yeah... Car: I'll quit saying that but... Gwynn (overlapping): Well and we have to... Ode (overlapping): But...no if that's...it's fair. Gwynn (overlapping): You know we do have to put out there, we have to put out there... Ode (overlapping): I can't...I can't read this book. Car: Right. Gwynn: No. And...and the fact that she also... Ode (overlapping): And that's frustrating. Gwynn (overlapping): ...has sadly because of this entire situation, she has a very almost vitriolic view of the LGBTQ community. And, speaking as a bisexual woman who is the mother of people who are a part of that community, and the daughter of someone who is gay... Ode (overlapping): To...to be clear, I, Ode, am non-binary and pansexual. Gwynn: So... y'know I, I find that...I find that very difficult. Because I want to...I do support her. I do...in that...as a victim. I support that she needs to bare witness to what has happened to her but I cannot, cannot support her stance on ... Ode (overlapping): Her taring the whole community. Gwynn (overlapping): Her taring the whole community for her mother's ... Ode: Crimes. Gwynn: Crimes. Car: Right. Gwynn: Her mother and her father's crimes and that, in my opinion, is just wrong. Ode: It is. Yeah, it's very wrong. I understand how she... Gwynn (overlapping): And it just...and it just continues the cycle of hurt. Ode *sighs*: Yeah I...I understand how she got to that place... Car (overlapping): And...and quite honestly that's still...that's still sexual abuse. Gwynn: It is. It's just a different... Car (overlapping): Y'know, treating the LGBTQ community in that way, is still sexual abuse and it's just different. Gwynn: It...it just perpetuates the violence and the hurt and the anger... Car (overlapping): And it's ... yup. And it's not uncommon in the sci-fi community, I mean Orson Scott Card. Gwynn and Ode: Yeah. Car: Has come out and been very vitriolic towards the LGBTQ community... Ode (overlapping): Yeah...which makes...this is very unfortunate since I love those books but man does it hurt me to read them! Gywnn (overlapping): I know! Car: Right! Right, and I think that...that's something that we need to talk about is, y'know where does this leave you on somebody like Orson Scott Card or Marion Zimmer Bradely? I mean how do you handle ... do you read the books? Do you throw them all away? Do you take them out and burn them? Ode (overlapping): Yeah... Gwynn (overlapping): Well... Ode and I have had this discussion before. Now for me personally, if it's a fictional novel, y'know a series of fictional novels I can set those aside and can say 'okay I loved them once but I'm really disillusioned by who this person turned out to be'. If it is someone who is a non-fiction writer who is writing has like, influenced my spiritual path or my...my being in some really uh, specific way, um, that's even worse for me. Ode: There's something though, like, I was spiritually influenced by fiction... Gwynn (overlapping): M-hmm. Yeah. A lot of people were spiritually influenced by Marion Zimmer Bradley. Car (overlapping): Yeah...yeah Ode (overlapping): Y'know? Like...there were...there is a book by Tanith Lee called "Biting the Sun" which was formative for me that I read when I was a teenager. And like, it really influenced how I saw myself and how I saw my relationship with my body, and with the rest of the world. And that was...and it was a science fiction book. It was...it was y'know...that was a very important book for me. Gwynn (overlapping): And again... those things are important. Ode: So you can't say, y'know, that because of fiction it doesn't have any... Gwynn: (overlapping): I did not say that. Ode: No I...I know. But I'm saying like, I think it has different impacts from non-fiction maybe... Gwynn (overlapping): Yeah...that's true. Ode: In that you're going to take it as, y'know, law. But, y'know, at the same time it's going to...it's going to... Gwynn (overlapping): Everything we read has some kind of effect. Ode (overlapping): ...It's going to effect...yeah. You're development as a person. Especially if you..if you read it at a young age which a lot of science fiction and fantasy is read by the young. Car: Right. Yeah. Gywnn: And I do think we have to take into account when these kinds of accusations or revelations are made about really influential people in whatever genre or area they are influential in, we have to take into account how we go from there. If we include them again, or still... Ode (overlapping): In our...in our...in our diet of content. Gwynn: In our diet of content. And for me, I'm going to have to say no as far as Marion Zimmer Bradley goes. Car: Well, just so that people know on the Marion Zimmer Bradley front, the publisher of all of her e-books is donating all income for sales to the charity Save the Children. Gwynn (overlapping): Which I think is fabulous. Ode (overlapping): Since...since 2014... Car (overlapping): Since 2014. Ode (overlapping): When the first allegations were first made against Marion Zimmer Bradley. Car (overlapping): Yeah. And then uh, Janni Lee Simner who was part of writing some of the Darkover series, and also her husband who sold Bradley's magazine. Of the Darkover magazine, are donating all of their advances and the money from the sales and all the royalties and everything to the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network or R.A.I.N.N. So... Gwynn (overlapping): I know some people would say that's too little too late but it is something. Car (overlapping):  Well and again we talked about having positive things come out of the crap that we had. Ode (overlapping):  And it's...uh huh. Exactly. Car: ...And this is something that's positive that's come out of the crap that, y'know, that we've had. So we need to continue that trend. Ode (overlapping): It's a...that's a response rooted in compassion. Gwynn and Car (overlapping): Right. Ode: And...and regret. Y'know? Car (overlapping): Yup. Yeah. Gwynn (overlapping): Yeah exactly. Ode (overlapping):  By people who didn't know this was happening and couldn't have stopped it at the time but now that they are aware...y'know they want to make amends. Gwynn (overlapping): Not unlike...not unlike what we're seeing in other sectors, such as Hollywood, such as uh..other cooperate areas. Ode: Yup. Car (overlapping): Yeah yeah. I mean like with... Gwynn (overlapping): Because, of all of these allegations and..and the, just the bravery of these people who are coming forward and saying, 'hey this is what happened to me'. And finally...finally as a society we're taking...we're not... Car (overlapping): We're listening. Gwynn: We're...we're listening and we're saying 'we're not gonna take this shit anymore'. Car: Yeah. Yeah. Gwynn: We're going to do something about it. Car: And that's, y'know you're talking about in Hollywood like Kevin Smith. Y'know who all of his first probably 8 movies were all part of the Harvey Weinstein company. Gwynn (overlapping): Right. Ode (overlapping): Yeah. Car: And Kevin has said that every dollar he makes off of them he's donating. Gwynn: Which I think is fabulous. Car: So y'know, that's...that's uh, that's again a good response. It's a step forward, y'know, those are the things that we need to do. We cannot... Ode (overlapping): It's an effort to improve the world... Gwynn: Yes. Car: Right. Yes. Ode (overlapping): ...In a very directed, immediate and monetary way. Gwynn (overlapping): And this can't be something that we just do for a short period of time and forget and it all starts up again. Car: Right. Gwynn: This has got to be a... Ode (overlapping): And ongoing effort. Gwynn: An ongoing effort for positive change and the empowerment of victims.. Ode: And... and let's be clear, it's not just victims need support although they absolutely do. It's also that abusers need to be fixed. Gwynn and Car: Yeah. Ode: There's, y'know, if...if... Gwynn: Their often abusers because they were themselves abused. Ode: Well, and let's...yes, but... Car: But that cycle can be broken.  Gwynn (overlapping): That doesn't...yes exactly. Ode (overlapping): Exactly. Gwynn: And that's the point! Car: Right. Gwynn (overlapping): It can be broken if we help the victims when they're...y'know. Ode (overlapping): No, but...I, I want to be clear, it's not just about helping the victims. We also need to, and maybe this isn't a popular stance, but we also need to help the abusers because there's something wrong in their person that needs to be... Gwynn (overlapping): That would cause them to do this to people to begin with. Ode (overlapping): Yeah that needs, that needs to be dealt with. Gwynn (overlapping): I totally agree. Ode (overlapping): And whether that's because they were abused themselves and are reacting against that, or whether there's something... Gwynn: A personality disorder, something... Ode: Yeah because there's just something in their makeup that inspires them to...to hurt other people. Listen, I understand. I felt the impulse to hurt people. I think we all have on some level, at some stage in our lives felt the impulse to hurt somebody. It's just a matter of how you deal with that. You can't control what your feelings are, you can only control what you do about them. Car: Right. Ode: So I think it's just as important to...to deal with the living abusers who are still, y'know, around to be healed. Gwynn: Agreed, absolutely agreed. Car: And while we can't unmake the past, we can shape our future. Ode: Exactly. Gwynn: Absolutely. Car: And so we need to make the future a place where predators find no quarter... Ode and Gwynn: Yes! Yeah. Car: Right? Right. And where all those who have already suffered, can be healed. Gwynn: Absolutely. Ode: Yup. Car: So, I mean that's...that's where we need to get to. Ode: Yup. Gwynn: That's exactly right. Car: And we can't change what happened. Ode and Gwynn: No. Ode: Can't do anything about that. Car and Gwynn: No. Gwynn: And we also can't let the...these past events rip the community apart. Car: Right. Ode: No. And we need to be very careful not to just pretend it didn't happen. We've done this before as a community with the Frosts who...who wrote a book in the 70s or 80s that... Car: 70s, yeah. Gwynn (overlapping): They were very influential. Ode: In the 70s that...they were very influential in the pagan community, they wrote a book that specifically described incest and...and child sexual assault as part of sexual initiations and they were not brought to...to any consequences of that for decades. It was decades before anyone even called them on it, and it...it wasn't until the 90s that they made any kind of retraction and even then the full text of...of this repellent ritual was still included in the next edition of the book. They just added a little forward that said 'by the way, the child should be 18'. This isn't a new problem in our community and we have let it slip under the rug and be ignored before. You can still find the Frosts' books in pagan stores. Y'know, there are still people who carry it and still people who swear by it and like we...we can't afford to keep doing this. Gwynn: No we can't. We can't. And honestly, I think we, y'know...I think we've had a discussion before where there was some kind of an initiative for... Car: A pagan-wide sexual... Gwynn (overlapping): A pagan-wide sexual safety... Ode (overlapping): Something that could just be sort of distributed to every group so that everyone could have the same policies. Car (overlapping): Yup. Yeah. Gwynn: Yeah and it fell...and it fell apart because people couldn't agree on the.. Gwynn and Car: Age of consent. Ode (overlapping): Which... Car (overlapping): It's just stupid. Gwynn (overlapping): And I'm sorry but that's a problem! Ode: The age of consent it whatever it legally is in your country, your spiritually relevant age of consent is not part of  this conversation. Car (overlapping): Or state. Gwynn (overlapping): That's right. Exactly.  And if, I'm sorry but I think if someone is really obsessed with a particular age that is below the... Ode (overlapping): The legal age of your country or state. Gwynn (overlapping): The legal of...in your country, in your country or state then that person really needs to reevaluate themselves. Ode: That..that person is one of the people I'm talking about who needs...healing. Gwynn (overlapping): Help. Because...because that's predatory behavior that needs to be addressed. I'm sorry, that's how I feel. Ode (overlapping): It's uh... it's a predatory impulse. Car: Yes. Gwynn: Yes, its a predatory impulse that needs to be... Car (overlapping): There's a difference between the behavior and having the impulse. Gwynn (overlapping): Yes. Ode (overlapping): Let's...I want to be...yeah. Gwynn (overlapping): That's true. Good point. Ode (overlapping): Because that's what I'm saying. Everyone has feelings. You can't control what your feelings are. Those are just something your brain throws at you whether you want them or not. The only thing you control is your actions. Gwynn (overlapping): It's how you act upon it. Car: Right. Ode: So uh...another, another thing that has been part of this conversation for us for our family is because this is happened in the ADF, Car is now addressing how he feels about being part of the ADF. And that very much mirrors an experience I've been undergoing since I got started in Heathenry. Which is that Heathenry is infested with white nationalist assholes. With neo-Nazis and racists and homophobes and some of the most repellent people on earth whom I want nothing to do with, and they're all throughout Heathenry and trying to filter them out is extraordinarily difficult. Especially since there's a concept in Heathenry called "Frith" which is difficult to pare down into a handful of words, but Frith basically is the social order between individuals in a community which promotes peace. And it's been used pretty extensively as a weapon essentially by white nationalists and neo-Nazis... Gwynn (overlapping): And a coercion really from what you've told me. Ode: Yeah.... who consider themselves Heathens. Who will go out into the world and spread their horrifying beliefs and then return to Heathens and say 'okay, here's what I've done. You can't judge me and you must protect me because we share Frith. You have a responsibility to protect me from outsiders.' Because that's the idea of Frith, is that it protects the kindred from threats that might...might attack anyone individual. The idea of Frith is, well you have the whole community behind you. And it's been used in this way to force the Heathen community to accept and hide and protect these individuals. My stance on that is that I don't owe Frith to racists or white nationalists because I don't keep Troth or...which is trust or the bond of community. I don't keep Troth with anyone who believes that entire segments of the human species to their own. So I don't owe them shit, much less Frith. Not everyone agrees with me on that subject, which is why I am not affiliated with a group. Car: Or two. Ode: Yeah. Which is why I'm not affiliated with the Asatru Folk Assembly, or the Asatru Alliance which are white nationalist and folkish respectively, because those communities...well first of all those communities are run by white nationalists and they take the concept of Frith as like law. And they...they use it to protect members who are hostile, detrimental members of the community and I think that's morally repugnant. So as a solitary Heathen I can say I apply Frith very sparingly to the community I want to build which is one that's inclusive and welcoming and that doesn't condemn people based on their ethnicity or their sexual orientation or their gender, because I think those things are functionally irrelevant to who you are as a person. The problem that I run into as a solitary Heathen trying to study my religion is that it's hard to figure out how much bias is coming from these people in sources where they don't explicitly come out and say y'know 'I believe black people are genetically indisposed to civilization as a concept' which is a position espoused by Vox Day, the publisher of the book in question. So if they don't come out and say that in the text I'm reading, its hard to sometimes know that that's what their position is, so every source that I...that I want to study, I have to find the author, then do like a deep dive like background check on the author to try to figure out if they have beliefs I find personally repellent. And once I've done that, I have to decide if I can afford to discard this source entirely or if I have to sift through it very carefully and do the best I can to remove whatever inherit bias is being brought to this work. And I think there's an extent to which the same process needs to be undertaken...with all of our sources. Car (overlapping): In every... Gwynn (overlapping): M-hmm. Car: Yup, yeah exactly. Gwynn (overlapping): Absolutely. Absolutely. Because, well for me I'm a witch. I am not a Wiccan. Most of the material out there is Wiccan. Car: Right. Ode: Yeah so you have to remove... Gwynn (overlapping): I have to really...I really have to sift through y'know a lot of what's out there. Because a lot of it I don't... it doesn't apply to me. Ode and Car: Yeah. Car: I think that's true even in the Celtic Reconstructionist is because a lot of those people who are doing that came out of Wicca. Ode (overlapping): Came out of Wicca and brought it with them... Car (overlapping): And brought it...brought some of that with them... Ode (overlapping): Intentionally or otherwise. Car (overlapping): So even...right, so as I've been reading through books I'm like 'wow that seems really Wiccan to me' and then I read further and I'm like... Ode, and Car (overlapping): 'Oh that's because it is.' Gwynn (overlapping):'Oh because that's Wiccan!' Car: And so... Ode: And then...and then you're in this position where like a lot of Wicca was inspired by or um, influenced by... Car and Gwynn: Or stolen from. Ode: ... Or stolen from Celtic religion and so it's...you have to figure out like well did this actually come originally from Celtic sources or was it created wholesale from Wicca and how can I tell the difference at this stage? Car: Right. Gwynn: Yeah. Car: Yeah, yeah so... Gwynn (overlapping): And so, yeah, there...there... I agree that there's an element of that in all...in all the writing, but I think the most important thing in light of our discussion here is, y'know, we're talking about the character of the person who's doing the writing rather than the um... Ode (overlapping): Yeah the tradition from which is came. Gwynn (overlapping): Yeah the tradition itself or the various rituals. Car (overlapping): Right, yeah.  Ode (overlapping): And I...and I do what to go back to Frith really quickly and say if you wouldn't let Frith protect a white nationalist, don't let Frith protect a racist or a rapist. If you...if you are in a Heathen community and someone in your community just flat out told you were a Nazi, and you wouldn't let Frith protect that person, don't let Frith protect someone who comes to you and says 'hi I sexually abused someone'. Because that, it's.. Car: It's the same thing. Ode: Yeah...it's... Gwynn (overlapping): It's the same thing. It's morally repugnant to support that person. Ode (overlapping): Its ... it's someone who is willing to hurt another person for literally nothing but their own satisfaction and that's...that's not the kind of people we want in community. Gwynn: And I do think that that's relevant to the wider pagan community. Ode (overlapping): That is, I mean that is the definition of being antisocial. Gwynn (overlapping): Exactly. And I think its relevant to the wider pagan community in this situation with Moira who is stating was raised in a pagan family where she was horrifyingly abused. We can't ignore that and just dismiss it. It has to be addressed Ode and Car (overlapping): Right. Yeah. Car: Yup. Yeah so I mean...these are all... and I don't, we don't have the answers to everything... Ode (overlapping): No. Gwynn (overlapping): No, not even close. Ode (overlapping): Or to any... Gwynn (overlapping): This is an ongoing conversation in our family you just happen to be privy  to some of it. Ode: Yeah. Car: Right. This is uh, 2 days of conversations for all 3 of us... Ode (overlapping): And 4 days of studying and... Car (overlapping): Yeah. For me. Because I found out about it and kind of kept it to myself for a couple of days while I was getting my own thoughts in line before I brought to all of us. And then we thought, okay well we probably ought to do a podcast about this. And it needs to be it's own thing because we needed to put these trigger warnings at the beginning. Ode and Gwynn: Yeah. Car: Um, y'know we want to protect people. Ode (overlapping): And if you thought this topic would be okay for you and you listened to this...to this episode and you're not okay, email me. Leave us a comment.  Gwynn (overlapping): You can email any of us. We'll be happy to correspond with you. Car: Right. Ode: Yeah if...if this has upset you um, and you need someone to talk to we're around. We really do...we care about you guys. I know we've never spoken to you because we just figured out how comments work, but um... (All laugh) Gwynn: And this is only our second episode. Ode: And this is only our second episode but um, we do care about you guys and we want you to be safe and if this has made you feel unsafe, please let us know. There are resources out there, if you're not feeling like you can figure out what they are right now, email me and I'll find them for you. Gwynn: Yup. Car: Yeah and we'll put a list of some of those on the links section on the website. So the website is 3PagansandaCat.com. Our email addresses will be in the notes, you can also fill out the comment form on the website that comes to me directly... Ode: Yeah that's, that's I think the contact tab. Car: Contact tab. Yup yes so... Gwynn (overlapping): Honestly even if you just want me to light a candle for you, please let me know. Car: Yeah. Ode: Yeah, yeah same! I uh, if you like...if you need to talk to your ancestors and you don't know how to do that, I have an ancestor shrine that I maintain. Let me know if...if you need any kind of help with that. If you...if you want a rune, literally if there's anything I can do...If you just want someone to talk to, if you want someone in the LGBT community that you can...that you can unburden yourself to, I'm here. Literally anything you need, let me know. Car: Yup. Gwynn: That goes for all of us. Car: Exactly. Alright thank you guys for listening. I know it's been a heavy topic. Gwynn: It has. Ode: Yeah, it's been a rough one. Car: We will have another episode coming out in about a week on Imbolc. Ode (overlapping): Yeah that'll be...yeah. Which was originally our plan for this episode... Car (overlapping): For this one, yup. Ode (overlapping): Um, it just been pushed back a little bit. But that's still coming and it'll be a lot more pleasant than this one. Gwynn: Yes! Car: Yup. And then we'll have our normal monthly episode coming up... Ode and Car: Right after that. Gwynn (overlapping): Right after Imbolc! Ode (overlapping): Yeah so you're going to get 3 episodes in a row guys, have fun. Car: But thank you all for listening to us, as we rambled through this. I think it was an important topic that we've...we really felt like we needed to discuss in front  of our microphone so that other people could...could start to process this as well. Ode: Yup. Yeah. Gwynn: That's right. Car: Thank you guys for listening and we'll see you soon. Ode: Yup.