Car: Coming up right now, the newest episode from Car, Gwyn, and Ode on 3 Pagans and a Cat. Ode: “Social justice has always been very close to my heart. As someone who experiences the sacred in all things, it is incumbent upon me to honor that to the best of my ability. Injustice causes a rift in the fabric of being. It is part of my work as a spiritual person to try to mend that rift, to help re-weave the fabric of love. Nothing is devoid of spirit, not the stove or pots at my local soup kitchen, not the ancient forests that require protection, not the family whose teen was killed for little reason other than he was black. I feel a connection to all of these. I must help right the world.” Welcome to Our Community - Bill Ehle, the 18th episode of 3 Pagans and a Cat. Our opening today is courtesy of T. Thorn Coyle, author and activist. You may call me Ode. Car: And you may call me Car, I’m Ode’s father. Gwyn: Merry meet, my name is Gwyn, Ode’s mother. Ode: We’re gonna be doing something irregular. Car: Yes. (Car and Ode laugh) Gwyn: Several things irregular... Ode: Several, in fact, several things that are irregular. Car: Right. Ode: We’re gonna be talking about social justice in the pagan community. We’re gonna be doing an interview later in the episode with Bill Ehle, hence the title of this episode. Car: (laughs) Episode, yup. Ode: Our Community is gonna be a series of interviews and profiles of people in the pagan community who are doing important work. Gwyn: And Bill Ehle is the president of -- All: Pagans in Need. Ode: So we’ll be talking to him later in the episode. But first, very first thing as always, we have a few new Patreons, who get their names read because they paid for that. (Car and Ode laugh) Gwyn: Our wonderful patrons! Ode: So we have one new kitten this month-- Gwyn: And we love you. Ode: --whose name is not read, ‘cause you didn’t pay for that. Gwyn: But that’s okay because we love our kittens. Ode: We still love you-- (Car laughs) Ode: --we just don’t say your name out loud. Gwyn: We appreciate our kittens. Car: Yes, very much so. Ode: Yes, we love and appreciate our kittens. Gwyn: Very much so. Ode: So we have Cat Gary BearStorm, and Leopard AkaNeko. Car: Yeah! Gwyn: A Leopard! Ode: I know! Car: Our first Leopard, yeah. Gwyn: Woohoo! Ode: Yeah. So AkaNeko has actually joined us here in the Discord today. Car: Yeah! Gwyn: That’s right. So glad you’re here with us. Car: Yep. Ode: Yep. Car: So anybody Hunter tier or up gets access to be able to listen to us live and as AkaNeko has found out-- Gwyn: It can be quite an experience. Ode: Yeah. Car: It can be quite an experience of conundrums. Ode: Yeah, the early stages of the podcast experience before it gets all the editing to sound nice and tidy and clean for y’all folks. Car: (laughs) Yep. Gwyn: AkaNeko gets to know the behind the scenes! Ode: Mm-hmm. (Gwyn laughs) Ode: With that managerial stuff out of the way, we can now get into the actual episode. Car: Yeah. Social justice has always been a big thing to me, even when I was involved in, ya know, the Abrahamic religion I came from. Ode: Yeah, Christendom. Car: Christendom. Gwyn: Christendom. Car: I always felt like I should be involved in helping people, and I don’t think that happens a ton, although it seems like the ones who get the most publicity tend to be the ones in Christendom. So we’re gonna try to in our little way of our tiny podcast start the solving of this, because I think there’s a lot of really cool things out there that people have no clue about and you don’t have to go directly to a pagan thing. Ode: Right, right. Car: I mean, you can join another group as a pagan. Ode: Yeah, yeah. There are secular options out there if there’s not a pagan thing in your area, and yeah, you can go join a Christian or, probably, unless they make you sign a, like statement, which some of them will. Gwyn: Oh, some of them do! Car: Well, yeah, that’s true, yeah. Ode: Yeah! And that’s why it’s important to have these sort of pagan alternatives to those things so-- Gwyn: Or just secular alternatives. Ode: Yeah, so that you don’t have to lie and like, sign your name to something, especially for those of us for whom, you know, oathing and making promises and signing your name to something is a very, like significant-- Car: Right. Ode: --thing. Gwyn: Well, and I think it’s important for people to understand that compassion and social justice and helping other people is not just in the realm of Christendom. Ode: It’s not a religious-- Gwyn: It’s a human thing! Car: Right. Ode: Yeah, it’s not a religious thing at all. Car: No. Gwyn: It’s a human thing! Ode: Compassion for the other people who exist around you. Gwyn: Reaching out to help the poor. Car: T. Thorn Coyle said because we’re pagans… Ode: We have a higher obligation. Car: … we have a higher obligation to that. I really believe that. Yeah. Ode: At least many of us do. Gwyn: I believe that as well. Ode: And that’s gonna vary from tradition to tradition, I suspect, how much that’s your responsibility-- Gwyn: Right. Ode: --and what your specific responsibilities are. In Heathenry, we have a strong obligation for hospitality. If someone needs something from me that I can give them, and that it doesn’t hurt me to help them, I have an obligation to do that for that person. Car: Right. Gwyn: Well, we were at Michigan Pagan Fest, Orion Foxwood, when I was in one of his classes, he did say that as magic workers, we do have a responsibility as healers of not only the Earth itself, but also of its inhabitants, whether they’re animal, wherever-- Car: Vegetable… Gwyn: Vegetable, right. We have an obligation as magic workers to reach out and help those in need, whatever that means. Car: Right. Ode: I mean, historically that’s what the village witch was for. Car: Yep. Gwyn: Exactly! Car: And we’ve gone back to “Orion said..” (all laugh) Ode: Well... Car: From our MPF episode. Gwyn: He has a lot of good things to say. Car: So, you know, I think paganism as a whole is a very Earth-based religion, right? Ode: Right. Gwyn: It is. It is. Yes. Car: So… Ode: And you’ll have a lot of people who are very focused on like, help the trees! Car: Right! Yep. Gwyn: Save the Earth! Car: Ecology, and that kind of stuff and I think that’s-- Gwyn: That’s very important. Car: That’s very important. It’s honestly a thing that gets ignored by most of society. I think that it’s gonna take us as a pagan community, maybe to bring that to the forefront. I mean, there’s a few people out there who do that kind of a thing, but I think that it’s something that we need to really focus on, is the ecology part of it. Gwyn: Well... Ode: As a Druid, I am deeply unsurprised that this is your opinion. Gwyn: Yeah. (Car and Ode laugh) Gwyn: I also think it’s just, you know, sometimes people think, oh well, somebody else is taking care of that. But if everybody goes, oh somebody else is taking care of that, it don’t get taken care of. Car: Right, right. Ode: Now there’s an important point to be made here that I think sometimes is overlooked in these kind of discussions, your individual contribution is not meaningless, but it also not actually the problem. Gwyn: Exactly. Ode: Your, like, individual carbon footprint is, yeah, probably bad, but what you do to-- Car: In the grand scheme of things. Ode: Exactly, yeah, in the grand scheme of things, it’s the corporate carbon footprints that are the problem, and getting that stuff to change is a harder, bigger job that needs even more organization, and that’s part of the reason it’s sort of important to get hooked up with other people in your community and find out what bigger steps you can take. But what I want to like, focus on right in this moment, if you’re not perfect, that’s okay. Don’t be ashamed of the changes you are making just because they’re not the biggest, most important changes available. Car: Right. Gwyn: All changes are important. Ode: Mm-hmm. Gwyn: All things that we can do to help not only the Earth, each other, our families, all of these things are important steps that we need to make. Car: Sometimes just a small step is a big thing like for me, I smoke all natural cigarettes, but I still smoke. Ode: He smokes. Car: And it still has a filter on the end, and I have gone from flicking my filter everywhere around the world to-- Ode: Making it a point. Car: Yeah, to making a point of getting the hot ash off, ‘cause at that point it’s just tobacco, it’s gonna burn, and then throwing the filter into the trash. Ode: Yep. Car: So it’s a small thing on my part, but if everybody did that, then we’re at a better place. Ode: It adds up. We have at the very least cleaner sidewalks. Car: Correct. Ode: Like I said, I mean, ultimately it’s big corporate changes that need to happen to like, stop the sort of the trend, even a lot of individual changes aren’t gonna stop the trend, but they will change your individual community. Car: Communities, yes, yep. Ode: Which is sort of all you can really focus on. Car: Right. Ode: Humans are actually very, very small creatures. I know we feel like we’re very, very big creatures, and that’s because of consciousness as far as I can tell, like we have big thoughts, and they don’t necessarily fit in tiny bodies, so we think of ourselves as bigger and more important than we are, because you’re trapped in your own self, and it’s impossible functionally for you to experience someone else’s self, much less the self of an aspen grove or the planet. Car: Right. Ode: I think we as humans tend to want to make big, dramatic changes. But the little changes you make on your scale are still important because you live at your scale. Gwyn: Yup. Car: Right. Yep. Gwyn: Exactly. And I will say that changes do occur over time, even in big corporations because, you know, let’s-- Ode: Yeah, as the sort of, the public… Gwyn: Right. Let’s for instance… Car: The outcry happens. Gwyn: As the outcry happens. For instance, let me just say, organic products. 20 years ago, you couldn’t get the amount of vegetarian, vegan, and organic products in your regular grocery store that are now available. Ode: Now those are not flawless because the demand has gone up for organic stuff, the ethics of organic stuff have-- Car: Has dwindled. Ode: --have dwindled. Gwyn: I understand that. But that’s not my point. My point is that more and more people started-- Ode: Market pressure. Gwyn: --market pressure. Started doing things to make them say, the bigger corporations say, hey this is something we need to pay attention to. Ode: Something which we will provide because it will make money. Gwyn: Exactly. Is that perfect? No. But it does respond. Car: Yeah, it’s why the big green coffee company has done away with plastic straws. Good idea? Maybe not. Ode: Maybe not. We’ve talked about this amongst ourselves that this maybe creates some accessibility issues for certain people. Car: Yep. At least things are starting to slowly, very slowly move in the right direction. But eliminating plastic straws out of a landfill, on a corporate level like Starbucks is a big deal, and if Starbucks does it, it’s not the big green company anymore. If Starbucks does it, then maybe McDonald’s does it. Ode: Does Biggby do it, you know, like, yeah. Car: Biggby, which is our local coffee company here, but has multiple locations. Ode: Yeah, like it’s regional, so like, and they’re the competitor for that company here, so if people see what Starbucks is doing and say, good, we approve, and start going to Starbucks, does Biggby say, okay well, now we have to also blah. Car: Right. Yeah. Gwyn: Well, it’s also, and you know, we’re talking about social justice today. So it’s not just about things like the environment, but it’s like-- Ode: Right, yeah, we’re gonna be talking about many topics. Gwyn: Exactly. Like how people are treating one another. For instance, the Me Too movement, which was originally that hashtag Me Too, that Me Too movement. It was actually started years ago by a black woman. Ode: It just took a bit for it to catch on. Gwyn: It took a bit for the-- Ode: For somebody famous to pick it up basically. Gwyn: For somebody famous to pick it up and say hey, this happened to me too. Women of all color are being harassed by men in the workplace, in homes, in all kinds of areas where people were not really, you know… Ode: People were conscious of it. Gwyn: They were conscious of it, but they just didn’t really talk about it or make changes, but it took somebody really famous to pick that up, and run with it, and now it’s this huge thing. Car: Right. Ode: Right. Car: So let’s go through these in, I actually have an order. Ode: Okay. Gwyn: Okay. Car: So… Ode: Car likes structure. Car: I do like structure. Gwyn: You do like structure. Car: So the first one oddly enough is feminism, sexism, and gender. Gwyn: Yeah. Ode: Eyyy. Gwyn: Those are big issues. Car: Those are very big issues. The Me Too fits into that. Ode: Relevant to most of humanity. Car: It really, yeah, I would think it’s relevant to all of humanity, really. Ode: I mean, sort of. I mean, there are asexuals who just aren’t interested in sex. Car: Yeah, but sexism still fits in there. Ode: Yeah, but they still, yeah, and they still experience a lot of-- Car: And gender issues. Ode: --discrimination on the basis of, and in some cases on the basis of being asexual. Like, I can’t tell you how many times people get the, oh well, is it pathological? You should go to the doctor. Have you tried taking blah? Car: Right, yeah. Cherry Hill Seminary, and if you all are not familiar with Cherry Hill Seminary… Ode: I’m not. (laughs) Gwyn: No. Car: So Cherry Hill Seminary, you would think seminary had Christian, NO, it’s a pagan seminary. That’s its whole thing. Ode: (gasps) J’intrigue! Car. Yes, it’s all online. I found out about Cherry Hill Seminary because when the stuff about Isaac came out-- Ode: Isaac Bonawitz. Car: Isaac Bonawitz, from episode two for us, Neo-Paganism and Sexual Abuse. Ode: Right after we started the podcast, we were like oh good. Car: Right. Gwyn: Jump feet first. Car: The cool thing about it was that the ADF took-- Ode: Oh, they took a course at… Car: They actually went to Cherry Hill Seminary and said, hey, we need a course on-- Gwyn: On ethics. Car: On ethics and sexual abuse, and how to handle that, and then the ADF as a whole paid for all of their grove leaders to take that class. It was a requirement. Ode: Wow. Gwyn: That’s awesome. Car: So if you are a grove leader or you were clergy you had to take this class. Ode: That’s excellent. Gwyn: That is excellent. Ode: First of all, excellent that Cherry Hill offers that kind of like, specialized relevant to this specific moment in time that they could offer, but also excellent that like, the ADF was like, hey, this is necessary now. Car: Right, yeah. Ode: You don’t get to be part of this unless you take the class. Car: If you’re interested in any of that kind of stuff, it’s CherryHillSeminary.org. And we’ll include a link to that. Ode: Right, just assume we’ll include links to all of these. Car: But like, they have a queer pagan theology crash course is one of their classes. Ode: Nice. Car: So you know, that really fits into that whole gender and sexism and… Gwyn: These are questions that we need to be asking. These are topics that are important. Ode: We’ve touched on that briefly before about as a queer person, go to an open ritual, sometimes there are questions like, maybe are uncomfortable or awkward questions, or questions that the ritual leaders have never gotten before and don’t know how to answer. About like, okay, well, what’s going to be involved, and can I participate? Car: And so you just did that, right? Ode: Yeah! Car: Yesterday. Ode: Yep, yesterday we were at an open ritual at Artes & Craft. (all laugh) Car: Because that’s where we go for everything. Gwyn: Of course we were. Ode: ‘Cause that’s where we do things. We were at an open ritual and the last time I had been to an open ritual, there had been a gendered component I wasn’t aware of, that I didn’t figure out until after the ritual, so I wanted to go ahead and ask at the beginning this time, whether or not there was gonna be a gendered component for the participants that I needed to be aware of. And there wasn’t, so I was able to participate. But it was difficult, sort of just to express the question in a way that I was sure I was being understood. Car: Right. Gwyn: Yeah, because I think it’s something people haven’t thought of before. Ode: Mm-hmm, yeah. Gwyn: They haven’t considered the possibility that the way we consider gender now and are moving toward is different from what-- Ode: The classic. Gwyn: --the classic considerations of gender are, and many traditions, especially older traditions are still based-- Ode: Have strongly gendered elements. Gwyn: -- have strong gendered duality elements within them. Car: Yep. Gwyn: I think it brings an interesting perspective. And I thought honestly, I thought the way that the ritual was handled yesterday that we were in, it actually, because they did have a god and a goddess representative. Ode: There was nothing for the participants. Gwyn: No, nothing for-- Ode: Nothing where the gender of the participants was assumed at any point. Gwyn: No, but I guess what I’m saying is the main person who was kind of acting as a duality of the two-- Ode: The ritual leader. Gwyn: Yeah, the ritual leader was kinda acting as a duality of the two combined into one, so for me that worked out very well. Ode: Yeah, it was a very interesting ritual, and I enjoyed it a lot. It was just there was that awkward moment at the beginning of having to be like, well. Gwyn: Yeah, how do you explain this. Car: Right. Gwyn: So that is understandable. But ultimately I think she finally understood what you were asking, and was able to answer. Car: So the next one is race and racism. Ode: Oh that is a big one. Gwyn: Oh boy, the big one. That is a big one. Ode: (laughs) If you’ve been in the pagan community for any length of time, you are probably familiar with the fact that there’s a lot of, oh, what I’m gonna call stealth racism happening. Car: Yeah. Ode: More and less stealth, depending on which orgs you’re a part of. Gwyn: And it comes from all sides. Car: Right. Gwyn: You know, it’s not any one group or any one-- Ode: Although there are groups that are worse about it than others. Gwyn: There are, there are. Car: Yeah, that is definitely true. Gwyn: But it is definitely, I think it’s an underlying tension, and I think that’s ‘cause you’re dealing with human beings. Ode: I mean, yeah, people are complicated, and as I have said before and will undoubtedly say again, trapped in themselves. So it’s just hard to understand other people like, even-- Gwyn: And where they’re coming from. Ode: Even with extremely high empathy, you’re only experiencing another person’s emotions through the filter of yourself. Gwyn: Of your understanding. Car: Right. Ode: Everything you experience, no matter what its source, comes through the filter of you. You never get someone else’s pure, unfiltered experiences. Car: Right. Gwyn: Yeah, you know the old adage-- Ode: Which means misunderstandings are inevitable. Car: Right. Gwyn: The old adage of walk a mile in someone else’s shoes, but still, ultimately, it’s you walking-- Ode: You’re still doing the walking, yeah. Gwyn: --in the shoes. You’re still walking, you’re still trying to process it in a way that is understandable to you. It may open up channels of new thinking. Ode: Right, it’s always valuable-- Gwyn: Always valuable. Ode: --to engage in empathy, but… Gwyn: But you will never have a pure experience of what someone else is feeling. Ode: Yep. Car: So one group that I know that’s doing some interesting stuff on the racism front is Heathens United Against Racism. Ode: Yeah, there are two groups that sort of focus on this actually. There’s Heathens United Against Racism, which is like a separate organization of its own. And then there’s Heathens Against Hate, which is, I think it was originally a separate organization of its own, and then it was absorbed into the Troth. So it now functions under the Troth’s sort of auspices. Car: Okay. Ode: But both are, as I’ve mentioned before, heathenry’s got just buckets and buckets and buckets of racism and white nationalism all tangled up in it because, I mean there are multiple reasons, but the big one is that nazi Germany was super into old Norse and heathen occultism. Car: And stole a lot of the symbols. Ode: Stole a bunch of symbols, stole a bunch of ideology, and misrepresented and misused it, and to this day, you will find what, usually if someone calls themselves an Odinist, that is a bad sign. Gwyn: And walk away. Ode: Walk Away. An Odinsman is fine. Someone who is devoted to Odin is fine. But an Odinist is generally racist neo-nazi trash and you should probably not give them the time of day. Car: So one of the things though that I think we need to be conscious of in this race/racism thing is cultural appropriation. Ode: Yeah, this is a complex topic. Car: It is. Gwyn: It is a complex topic. Definitely ‘cause, oh I think a lot of people don’t think that what they’re doing is appropriation. Ode: Well, and there’s also a lot of anxiety about cultural appropriation to a point that people accuse themselves of appropriation that isn’t appropriative. So you get these, there’s just confusion about what appropriation is, I think. Car: Let’s take a for instance. Let’s take sugar skull, okay. Alright. Sugar skulls have become hugely popular in the United States. Ode: Just in the secular sense, yeah. Car: In the secular sense. Gwyn: As a decorative piece. Car: Right, so you can go buy a sugar skull at World Market. Ode: And you should not. Car: It’s a mass-produced POS, because there’s no thought, there’s no thing given to it, they’re trying to make a buck. Ode: It’s just decorative Car: And ultimately the company that’s making it is trying to make a buck. Ode: Yes. Gwyn: Exactly. Car: It has nothing to do with-- Ode: No respect was involved in this process at any point. Car: Right. Gwyn: Exactly. Car: On the other hand, buying a sugar skull from somebody who is involved in that tradition because you like it, and they’ve put the thought into it-- Ode: Well, what I would say is like, not even because you like it, but because you understand its context, and you’re going to use it in that context. Car: Right. Gwyn: Exactly. Ode: And you get it from a seasoned practitioner or you make it yourself with an understanding of the context-- Gwyn: And you understand the purpose of it. Car: Right. Ode: --and having been trained by someone who knows what the fuck they’re doing. You know, I think that’s the way to approach something like that. Appropriation is taking something that belongs to a specific culture out of its culture and using it as your prop or decorative item because you think it’s pretty, not because you understand anything about it. Gwyn: Exactly. Car: Okay, so I have a question then. Ode: Okay. Car: So, athame. Ode: Right. Car: Okay. You both want an athame. Correct? Ode: I mean, I want one of Paul’s athames, yes. Gwyn: I want one of Paul’s. Car: Right. So in this case, you all want an Artes & Craft athame because Paul makes them. Ode: Yes. Car: But you want them because, why? So I know you said yesterday because they’re pretty. Gwyn: It’s pretty. And chances are eventually, ‘cause somebody else brought this up in the conversation, she said, but if you really want one, even if right now because you think it’s pretty and someone you know made it, don’t you think you might eventually be like, drawn to use it in ritual or during spellcraft? I said, yeah probably, because I know what its purpose is and its intent is. I think, even though I do want one on my altar ‘cause I think it’s pretty, it will also represent fire on my altar. Car: Okay. Ode: So here’s the reason I want one of Paul’s athames. First off I can feel mad energy off of them. (laughs) Gwyn: Exactly. Car: Right. Ode: They feel powerful which is why I want one of these and not an athame in general. Car: Right. Ode: But for me it is less that they are pretty and more that-- so heathenry doesn’t have a lot of tools, not because necessarily our ancestors didn’t use them, but because we don’t fucking know what they did. Like we have very limited information. So, and this is one of those situations where like, you have to sort of debate with yourself. You have to be very careful about appropriation because-- Car: Right. That’s why I asked this question. Because this is really a British Traditional Witchcraft athame. Gwyn: It is. It is. Ode: Heathenry doesn’t have a lot of what we generally call “spiritual technology” left. We do have is very sparse, and a lot of it we think has actually been fused with Finnish Sami shamanism from the natives in Finland. And we think that happened back in the day because everybody lived together basically, and the Norse were not averse to borrowing. So we don’t have like, there’s not a strict delineation between these things and a lot of what we do have is missing and we have like the shadow of the thing, so we know something used to go here, but we don’t know what it was. Car: Right. Ode: So in trying to reconstruct heathenry and trying to reconstruct especially heathen magic traditions, you have to go to sort of their nearest neighbors, and ask them what they’re doing, and see if those tools fit in your toolkit. Gwyn: Mm-hmm. Car: Okay. Ode: And it’s important, like I said, it’s important to do that in a constructive way, understanding the context from which it comes, which is why I like taking classes with Paul and finding out about Thelema and things like that, finding out, you know, where these things come from, what he’s probably thinking about when he creates it. But at the end of the day, like, I still need tools. Car: Right. Gwyn: And I think also, I can admire the aesthetic, the prettiness of it for me. I can admire the aesthetic, I can admire the craftsmanship of it. But I also understand the energy, the work, and the process behind it to appreciate it and want it as a part of my altar. Car: AkaNeko who is in the chat said, being interested in wearing a kimono and wearing a kimono, the general policy is to stay away from anything used sacredly, such as like, a Native American headdress and feathers where those have to be earned. Elsewise, get an actual kimono, not something just being called a kimono. Ode: Exactly. And that’s part of context. Car: Right, yep. Ode: That’s respecting the context, that’s respecting the origin of the thing. I think for me, the sort of, the big takeaway is don’t pull it out of its own culture. Car: Right. Ode: Don’t just take it out of its own culture and pretend that it was always yours. Acknowledge where it came from, because if it hadn’t come from there, you would not have it. Car: Right. Gwyn: Exactly. And it’s like when we went to ConjureFest, and we talked about the difference between voodoo and hoodoo. Hoodoo is an African American practice, a magical practice whereas voodoo is an actual closed religion. Ode: Yeah, and it’s a closed religion. Gwyn: It is a closed, personal religion where you have, you know, not just individual, but you have to actually be invited into the religion. Ode: My understanding of how voodoo initiation works, which this may not be true for every tradition, but what I’ve read is that you have to go to a priest or priestess and they will do divinations to see if the Loa have called you at all. Car: Right. Ode: Before they even consider like, actually initiating you, which is then its own extended process. Car: Right. Gwyn: In fact one of the vendors when we went to ConjureFest, she actually went to Haiti, had one of these voodoo priests, they did a reading, and she was in fact initiated into Haitian voodoo, and went through all the training, and things like that, and it is a religion, and you do have to be invited to it, and I think, you know, you’ll see people just say, oh I’m gonna be a voodoo priest or a voodoo priestess.. Ode: Right. It does not work like that. Gwyn: That’s not how it works, and that would be appropriation. Ode & Car: Right. Gwyn: If you just came along and said, ooh that’s cool. I wanna learn how to do voodoo, or I wanna be a voodoo priest, but you were not initiated into the tradition, you were not brought in via a voodoo priest or priestess, then you are-- Ode: You’re not part of the religion. Gwyn: You’re not actually part of the religion. Ode: You might worship Loa, but you’re not a voodan. Gwyn: Exactly. There is a difference, and I think that’s where appropriation comes in as well. Ode: Yep. Car: Hey, guess what. Gwyn: What? Car: (singing) It’s time for reviews! Gwyn: And I’ve been looking forward to this one. (Car laughs) Ode: Yeah. You’ll be delighted to know that we like this book. (laughs) Car: (laughs) Right? Yeah. Gwyn: And plus I’m also gonna talk about some products that we got at ConjureFest. Ode: So we’re reviewing today mostly “Forest Bathing Retreat” by Hannah Fries. Gwyn: Oh my goodness. Car: Which is not out yet. Ode: No, it comes out-- Gwyn: September. Ode: Yeah, relatively soon. Car: Yep. Ode: But we got an advance copy to review, and it’s very cool. Car: Yeah. Gwyn: Oh, it’s a stunning book. Ode: Yeah, it’s definitely sort of a coffee table book. It’s beautiful. It’s got lots of photos. The copy we had obviously didn’t have the, like the complete, full photo lineup. Car: Yep. Either that or they had not gotten permission to use-- (laughs) Ode: Right, they haven’t gotten the photo permissions yet. The stuff that’s in there right now though, the review copy we saw is beautiful and I can’t imagine that the final book will be any less beautiful. Car: Right. Think it’ll actually be more if nothing else. Ode: Probably. Gwyn: And I love the set-up of this book because it basically, it takes you on a walk through the woods. (laughs) Ode: Yeah, I described this to Gwyn earlier as, this is essentially the book form of a guided meditation. Gwyn: And it’s gorgeous. Car: Yeah. Gwyn: Absolutely. It’s intended, I think, to, you know, to get you to go out into the woods and use this guided meditation that is offered in the information, ‘cause there’s a lot of scientific information offered as well. Ode: Yeah, there’s some science in there. Gwyn: I mean, you know, blurbs. But it is, you know, you go out into the woods, or into a forested area, or to a tree, and experience that tree, and experience being in green space. And they call it forest bathing. Ode: Sitting with trees, and sort of reconnecting with nature and… Car: And there’s four different sections in this book. So there’s the Breathe section, the Connect section, the Heal section, and the Give Thanks. Gwyn: Mm-hmm. Each one is so beautiful. Car: Yeah, they really are. It’s super well done. I’m happy when we get a book that we’re like, hey, we actually like this one. Gwyn: And it’s easy to read this book. Car: Right. Ode: It’s not gonna take up like, a huge amount of your day. It’s not even something I would read straight through, honestly. I mean, I did ‘cause we were reviewing it, but how I would probably approach this if I owned it, is that I would keep it like, somewhere that I saw it on a regular basis, and I would just like, leaf through it. Haha, puns. Gwyn: Ha! (Car laughs) Ode: I would just leaf through it, and maybe open it to a random page, and sort of see what the message was almost, like… Car: Right. Gwyn: It could easily be a daily meditation. Ode: Yeah. Gwyn: Even a weekly meditation. If you’re feeling stressed after work, you need to kind of-- Ode: Decompress. Gwyn: Decompress, and disconnect from the stress of the week. This would be a perfect opportunity if you are in a suburb, or you’re in a place where you cannot get to green space, this will help-- Ode: Where it’s an ordeal to get to a green space. Gwyn: Or an ordeal to get to green space. Just looking at these photos and going through this guided meditation allows you to get that feeling. Ode: Mm-hmm. Car: I think our recommendation on this book would be definitely a buy. Gwyn: Oh I, absolutely. Ode: Yeah, oh yeah. Car: So 3 Pagans and a Cat recommends this book. Gwyn: Absolutely. Ode: Yeah, thoroughly endorsed. Car: And I believe we would say that you should buy the hardcover of, or the paperback. Ode: Yeah. Gwyn: Actually, it’s a softcover. Car: Yeah, the softcover version of it, not the Kindle. Ode: Get a physical copy of this book. Gwyn: I would get a physical copy of the book, yeah. Ode: And keep it on a coffee table somewhere. Gwyn: Absolutely. Ode: This is definitely one of those books. It’s not very long, under 200 pages, but it’s just a beautiful experience. Car: Yep. Gwyn: Mm-hmm. That’s a perfect way to put it. It is an experience. Ode: Yeah. It’s a beautiful, enriching almost, revitalizing experience. Gwyn: Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. So highly recommended. Ode: Strongly recommend that one. And then Gwyn has some things she wants to review as well. Gwyn: Yes! When we were, again, at ConjureFest, I got some products from Wildcrafters Den. Some of the things that we purchased from them were teas, which were blended and then sewn into individual tea bags by, you know, sewn by hand. So we got a variety of different teas. We then were given as, in order-- Ode: Yeah, we bought some of this, some of this was given to us to review. Gwyn: To review. Car: Just so people understand how this happens… (Ode laughs) Car: -- is that when we buy something, I usually give the proprietor a sticker and say hey, we’re gonna review this on our podcast, just so you guys know. And then this lady went, well! How about all this other stuff? Gwyn: I can give you this! Ode: Here are these things you should review. Gwyn: She gave us bath and body things like, I think there were some soaps and there was a mask that you can use on your face and all these different things that throughout the week I’ve been using different things. I use the prophecy tea, which we were planning to do some divination last night. Ode: (laughs) Yeah, so she drank the prophecy tea… Gwyn: I drank the prophecy tea, and it knocked me the fuck out. Ode: But she had apparently very vivid dreams. Gwyn: I had very vivid dreams. So I recommend the prophecy tea, but just beware if you’re anything like me, whatever’s in it, ‘cause I don’t know, it did knock me out. But it was very, very good. So I only have two of those left, so they’re gonna be used very cautiously. Ode: Very sparingly. Gwyn: Sparingly. Then we also got a headache tea, which I-- Ode: (laughing) Which we bought her out of. Car: Right. Gwyn: We bought her out of. And I used it today, ‘cause I woke up with a headache. (laughs) It is a very effective tea, and I’ve found that anytime you use an herbal concoction, it does take a little longer than like, say, taking ibuprofen, but it was very effective. I would recommend if you do any kind of an herbal tea for headaches or something like that, make a larger amount, and then kinda spread it out over a few hours, over the day. But anyway, it worked really well. I got a candle that was meant to, that had been dedicated to the element of water, and with herbs and oils, so I’ve been burning that on my altar, and that really brought me very close to my element, ‘cause I’m a Pisces. Weirdly enough, I don’t work with water very often. Ode: Although she’s always talking about working with water. Car: Yeah. Gwyn: But I’m always talking about working with water, and I love to go to water spaces, experience that. So. But anyway, I highly recommend the products. Car: Everything across the board, Wildcrafters Den is awesome. Ode: Yeah, we-- Gwyn: Is what I’m saying. Car: Yep. Gwyn: She has quality things. Ode: We were super impressed just with the display. Car: Right. Yeah. Gwyn: The display, her knowledge. She has excellent products. They’re organic. They’re high quality, and I highly recommend Wildcrafters Den. And you can find her on Facebook. Car: Yep. Ode: Excellent. Car: And oddly enough we’ll have a link to that. Gwyn: Yep. (Ode laughs) Car: So, guess what! (singing) That’s it for the reviews! Gwyn: What is with that face? (laughs) Ode: He’s making a wild face. He’s doing this… (Car laughs) Ode: And I am not sure why. (laughs) Gwyn: I am not either. It’s like, what is all up that? Car: I-- I dunno. Ode: Especially since you can’t see it, microphone, so it’s just for us, I guess. (Car and Gwyn laugh) Car: Well, let’s be honest, everything I do is just for you guys. Gwyn: That’s true. Ode: So true. Car: Yeah. (Gwyn and Ode laugh) Car: That went from being really awkward to like-- (Gwyn laughs) Ode: Awwww. Car: They’re a family! Gwyn: Nice save, nice save. (Car and Gwyn laugh) Ode: Alright. Car: Goodness gracious. Gwyn: I also like the sustained note. I just had to throw that in there. (Gwyn and Ode laugh) Ode: But then she got distracted by your face (all laugh) Car: I have a face for radio. Next thing is mental health and illness. Ode: Mm, yeah. Gwyn: Oh now that one is a big topic. Car: And I would throw disability in this as well. So whether that’s general mental health issues, body image issues, mood disorders… Ode: Spoony problems in general. Car: Yes. Gwyn: Mm-hmm. Car: Yep. But it’s something that I think because they’re not seen… Ode: Yeah. The invisible ailments. Car: Right. That we tend to ignore them, although recently-- Ode: There’s been some improvement. Car: We’ve done a little bit better about it. I think that it’s definitely something, here’s what I thought was really cool, like, just in reference to all of this is the tarot deck that we looked at yesterday. Gwyn: Mm-hmm. Ode: Yeah! Car: And I didn’t look at it harcore, Ode did. Ode: I did, yeah, I looked at all the… all the cards. Gwyn: I peeked over Ode’s shoulder. Car: Right, and… Ode: So this was, this is called the Numinous Tarot. Car: The Numinous Tarot deck, and there are cards in it like, a lady in a wheelchair, and-- Ode: Yeah, the mystic of whatever the swords equivalent is, I believe. Car: Right. Ode: So the King of Swords card is a woman, a black woman in a wheelchair. Gwyn: Mm-hmm. Car: Right. Ode: And it’s a beautiful card. I can’t explain to you why it’s appropriate because there’s a lot going on, but it’s a beautiful image, extremely powerful, just super on point for the meaning of the card. Car: Right, yep! Gwyn: Exactly. Car: I think like, slowly including those kind of things into paganism as a whole… Ode: Accessibility, I guess you could say. Car: … is a good thing. So I, we need to do more. Ode: Right, I would love to see… I would love to see a tarot deck that included braille. Car: Yep. Oh! That would be great. Gwyn: Oh my god! Ode: I have to assume that there are blind diviners out there who would like to use tarot, but can’t because it’s a purely visual medium. Gwyn: A lot of divination tools are very visually, purely visual… Ode: I mean, sometimes with runes, there will be like, an indentation that you can trace with your fingertips and figure out what it is, but-- Gwyn: Right! I have to believe that there are visually impaired practitioners out there who would like to have opportunities, or maybe they’ve come up with them on their own. Ode: Right, exactly, yeah. Gwyn: They’ve created their own tools. Ode: Yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised, yeah, if people have made their own braille. Gwyn: But they should, but they should have access to those-- Ode: But the thing is, it doesn’t really cost you anything to just add braille to a card? Car: Right. Ode: I mean, I imagine it has some like mechanical cost, like you have to have a machine do the thing, I’m sure, but-- Gwyn: But surely it would be something that could be done. Ode: It should be something that is possible. Gwyn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Car: Well, I wanna think that there is, because Jack Mercer… Ode: Oh yeah! Car: ...is blind. Gwyn: Mm, right. Car: And he does runes. Ode: Yeah, I dunno if he does tarot. Car: So, I know that he can… Ode: Right, he can feel the rune. Car: … feel the rune. Interesting, like, we should talk to Jack and find out if they have a tarot-- Ode: Is there a braille tarot? Car: Right, and if there’s not… Ode: And if no, why? Car: Right. Exactly. Gwyn: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Car: Something to dive into and we actually know somebody-- Gwyn: He was really lucky. He was at Michigan Pagan Fest. Ode: Oh my god, yeah. Gwyn: And he kept winning all of the stuff. Car: I don’t know if you call that luck or if you call that magic. Ode: That’s magic. That’s magic. (Ode and Gwyn laugh) Ode: Jack has the Midas’ touch. (laughs) Gwyn: He does. He has a Midas’ touch. That was amazing. Ode: He won like six things out of a raffle. Gwyn: He did! He did. Ode: It was amazing. Gwyn: It was crazy. They just started bringing the shit to him, you know. (laughs) So he didn’t have to just keep getting up. Ode: Uh-huh. Gwyn: Well, I think finally his companion finally won something too. Ode: Yeah. Car: Oh there is a special braille edition of the Rider-Waite tarot deck, but it’s ridiculously expensive. (Ode sighs) Gwyn: Probably because of the braille process. My understanding is that-- Ode: No, probably just because of the blind tax. This is an actual thing that I’ve seen talked about. Braille products cost more than they need to because blind people are a captive audience. Gwyn: That’s stupid. Ode: Yeah, like, braille doesn’t actually, like, I mean, like I said, there’s a mechanical cost to doing the braille. You have to have a machine do the thing. But it’s not like, prohibitively expensive, or it doesn’t need to be prohibitively expensive. It’s just that blind people can only get so many products, so they’re gonna buy what you made, however much it costs. Car: Yeah, so here’s the difference. So the regular Rider-Waite deck is $18 US. The braille version is 40. Gwyn: Wow. Ode: Jesus fucking Christ. Car: So there’s absolutely no reason for that. Ode: Yeah, see, so that’s bullshit trash. That’s the blind tax. It’s nonsense. And also, although it’s great that there’s a braille tarot, why can’t we just add the braille to all the decks? Car: Yeah, no kidding. Ode: Why can’t we just add the braille for King of Swords… why can’t we just make that a standard, just add that shit to all the cards? Car: And you could put it on the back of the card even so that you can feel it with your index fingers-- Ode: And display the face to the querent. Car: Exactly, yeah. Ode: Why don’t we just-- Car: It would be easy to do it. We just don’t. Ode: We just don’t, yeah. Dear Llewellyn, please start just adding braille to all your frickin’ tarot cards. (Gwyn laughs) Car: And don’t charge extra for it. Ode: Yeah! Like, just make it part of the process, like it doesn’t, it cannot possibly cost that much more. Car: Here’s the deal. Here’s the deal. If the normal Rider-Waite costs $18... Ode: Right. Car: But I have to pay 25 because it happens to have braille on it, I’m cool with that if all of them are 25 bucks. Ode: Exactly. Exactly! Yeah. Just raise the cost for all tarot so that all of them have braille. That is perfectly, like, I’m fine with that. Car: Right Gwyn: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Car: So when we finally do our-- Gwyn: Okay, we’re on our little soapbox right now. Ode: My rage, my rage is up. Car: So when we do our Lenormand deck, we-- Ode: We’ll figure out braille. Car: Yep, exactly. Ode: We’ll have to get together with somebody who reads braille. Car: Right. Yeah, and then have it-- Gwyn: Find out what the cost is, and-- Ode: Find out, figure out how to do that. Car: Yeah, and we’ll do it ourselves, so. We’ll make sure our deck… Ode: Has braille! Car: … has braille on it. Gwyn: (laughs) That’s right. Ode: That tangented a little, but it’s one of those things where like, just accessibility isn’t as hard as people make it seem. Gwyn: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Car: Right. Ode: It’s not that hard to add a ramp so that your place is wheelchair accessible. Car: Right. Ode: It’s not that hard to add braille so that your tarot cards are visually impaired accessible. Car: Right. Ode: You know? Like, it’s just not as hard as you make it sound. You just don’t want to. Car: Right. Yeah, that’s exactly it. Ode: And you know what? We’re actually failing on this. And I’m gonna make it a point to do better, ‘cause we don’t put transcripts up of our episodes, which means that our episodes are not accessible if you’re hearing impaired. So, I’m sorry. I apologize for that. I’ve been lazy. I’m gonna go back and make transcripts of all of our episodes. I’m going to include them so that people who are hearing impaired can access our podcast. I apologize. That was my bad. Car: Since you’re gonna jump on your soapbox, you had to, yep. (Gwyn laughs) Ode: Yeah. Exactly! Like, that’s the thing. You gotta own your own shit when you fuck up. (laughs) Car: Right. Exactly. So it’s now time for (singing) Gwyn’s Garden Gems. Ode: (singing) Yay! Gwyn: (laughs) Okay enough. Stop. (Ode laughs) Gwyn: So what we’re talking about today is rosemary. Ode: Oh! Gwyn: Mm-hmm. Rosemary is one of my favorite plants. Ode: I like to put it on potatoes. (Ode and Car laugh) Gwyn: But here’s the thing, you have like, unless you start looking into rosemary, you don’t realize it’s not just versatile for cooking. Again, it’s one of those herbs that you can have out on a balcony, in front of a door, because it’s excellent for protection. It has many uses in addition to protection. Rosemary’s excellent for healing. It is excellent for purification, love, strength. It’s excellent for memory, stress relief, and mental clarity. And it’s associated with the sun and the zodiac sign of Leo. But here’s the interesting thing, rosemary is-- Ode: That’s not interesting? I thought all that was pretty interesting. (laughs) Gwyn: No, all of that was very interesting, but it also, it has a very ancient history. Ode: Okay. Gwyn: And it also, like it was used in funerary rites. It was used in wedding rites, like, way back. Ode: So just sort of transitional moments? Gwyn: Yeah! Transitional moments of life… Car: So birth maybe even? Gwyn: I don’t know about birth, but they definitely used it, like sprigs of rosemary would be included in a bride’s bouquet. Rosemary would be tossed into a gravesite. So I found that very interesting. In fact, rosemary was mentioned by Shakespeare in one of his plays. Ode: So I should keep eating it is what you’re saying. (laughs) Gwyn: Yes. But the great thing about rosemary is that, you know, you can get it as an essential oil, you can use it as an herb that you grow, or that you get from the grocery store, ‘cause you can find sprigs of rosemary. Ode: Right, yeah, although my experience with dried rosemary is that it’s super pointy and will stab me in the mouth, so fresh rosemary is preferable ‘cause it’s softer at that state. Gwyn: That is very true. Rosemary’s also relatively, it’s actually pretty easy to care for. You can actually grow it. It is actually a shrub. Ode: Is it? Gwyn: That can grow up to five feet. Ode: Holy crap, our rosemary’s gonna get huge someday. Gwyn: Yes! And if you plant it outside, and it will, once it gets to a certain level it will bloom with blue blossoms. (Ode gasps) Gwyn: Mm-hmm. And… Ode: I’ve never seen our rosemary bloom. Gwyn: That’s because we keep it in a pot. Ode: Oh… Gwyn: We don’t have it, it hasn’t grown enough. Ode: We gotta find some land we can plant it in. Gwyn: I know. It doesn’t like harsh climates, so in the winter you do need to bring your rosemary inside, which is why if you want it to get to shrub size… Ode: It’s not gonna work for us here. Gwyn: ...it’s not gonna work in Michigan. Ode: Unfortunate. Unless we put it in a greenhouse or something. Gwyn: Unless you put it in a tub or something, and bring the tub inside. But it does like well-irrigated dirt and soil. It does like full sunlight. Ode: Okay. Gwyn: So it’s a good herb to have out in your garden, on a balcony, and it’s just easy. It’s an easy plant to work with. Ode: Yeah, some of the herbs we have on the balcony are a little finicky, need to be like, in a certain position, need to have the perfect amount of water, need to be pruned perfectly. But the rosemary has seemed very hardy. Gwyn: It is. Rosemary’s very hardy. You can just snip a sprig off of there like, this morning I brought a sprig of rosemary in from the balcony, rinsed off. I use essential oils and a mixture of a light, organic dish soap. Ode: As a pest repellent, yeah. Gwyn: As a pesticide. And then, so I just rinse it off, pat it dry, and then all I did was just snip, you know, into small, little bits of rosemary into our eggs. And so, you know, not only do you have the benefits of it tastes good, because it’s good with eggs, chicken, and in stew, and-- Ode: Everything. Gwyn: --everything, but also I have the benefit of the magical working of protection and love and-- Ode: --health. Gwyn: --health, and so it’s just a all-around excellent herb for any witch to have, and I recommend that everyone has it. Car: (singing) Gwyn’s Garden Gems. (Gwyn laughs) Ode: Beautious. Car: Thanks! Gwyn: Lovely. (Ode laughs) Car: LGBTQI. Ode: Yeah. Yeah, ‘cause we touched on this a little bit with gender issues and stuff like that. Car: Yep! Although, but not significantly. Ode: And I think that’s partly because the pagan community, not universally, but in general is sort of more comfortable space for people who are queer. Car: Mm-hmm. Agreed. Ode: So a lot of queer people find themselves wandering into paganism just because it’s more welcoming. Car: Sometimes, yes, and then there are times when they’re not. Ode: Oh yeah, there are definitely (laughs) exceptions. Car: And we really need to be better about this. Ode: Yeah. Car: ‘Cause I think that, and again, it’s just human nature to some extent. But especially the trans community. Gwyn: To reject what’s “weird,” or different to-- Ode: Oh yeah, the trans community has gotten extremely gross, unnecessary bullshit from the pagan community, and I’m mad about it. Car: Yep. Gwyn: I’m mad about it too, because I don’t understand. I honestly thought of any community that should be and would be accepting, I thought, of the transgender community, I thought surely it would be paganism, and unfortunately I have been proven wrong. Ode: Yeah. We have encountered groups that, especially Gwyn, I know went to look at a group that she was involved with previously. Gwyn: It was a goddess worshipping group, mm-hmm. Ode: Yeah, so she went to look and see what they were up to, and they had created a whole, separate trans women’s circle, because they were excluding trans women from their regular goddess circle, which is gross bullshit. Car: Yep, exactly. Gwyn: Yeah. Unfortunately I found myself very distressed by that. So I didn’t wanna continue having ties with that group. Car: Yeah, next thing is classicism, poverty, and charity. Gwyn: Yeah. Ode: Yep. Gwyn: And because in a country as rich as the United States… Ode: Which, this can be hard to see when you’re living below the poverty line, even our poor are extremely rich by world standards. Car: Right, yeah. Gwyn: By world standards. And in a country as rich as ours with as much availability as we have… Ode: We live really in a post-scarcity society. Gwyn: Where food is literally being thrown away every day. Ode: Because it’s not pretty enough. Gwyn: Thousands of pounds of food because it’s not pretty enough. Car: Yep. Well, and our government pays farmers not to grow! Gwyn: Not to grow food. We should have no problem with access to clean water. We should have no problem with access to healthy food, and yet we’ve got millions of children and families that are going without food every single day. And they are having to buy boxed food at the dollar stores or get, you know, and get food that is just filling but not nutritious. Ode: Or not even filling in some cases. Car: Right. Yep. Gwyn: Or not even filling and it’s junk. They’re getting junk food. And yeah, we have programs like WIC and all that kinda stuff. Ode: Although they’re getting defunded all the time. Gwyn: They’re getting defunded all the time, and it’s hard. We’ve had to go to food pantries in the past. It can be really hard to find the right-- Ode: There was a time we had food stamps. Gwyn: Yes, exactly, and it can be really hard to find the right food pantry for your district or you go to one that’s run by a Christian organization and you have to sit through-- Ode: You have to sit through the sermon, and then-- Gwyn: --the sermon, and then the prayer-- Ode: And then you like, renew your dedication to, yeah. (laughs) Gwyn: And it’s just very, it’s harder to get food then it should be. Car & Ode: Yeah. Gwyn: What the thing is. It’s harder to get clean food, clean water. It’s ridiculous. And it’s bad enough, you know, what we have here in the United States, and… Car: But we have the ability in the United States to feed everybody. Gwyn: Yes, we do! Ode: And we even have the bones of the infrastructure we need to do it. Car: Right. Gwyn: Absolutely. Ode: We just, again, it’s not that we can’t, we just choose not to. Car: Right, yep. Gwyn: And it comes down to honestly, it comes down to greed. It comes down to greed and it comes to-- Ode: Profit margins Gwyn: --profit margins, and what, you know, people are wanting to get money, and this blah blah blah blah. It’s ridiculous to me. Ridiculous to me that people are going hungry. Ode: Bread, that this house may never know hunger, salt, that this house may always have flavor, and wine, that joy and prosperity may reign forever. We’re delighted to welcome to the show today Bill Ehle, who is the director and sort of, just one man show of Pagans In Need, which you will have heard us talk about before because we love it. So we’ve got a couple of questions here, and we’re gonna just get going. Bill, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got involved in PIN? Bill: My name is Bill Ehle, and I got involved in Pagans In Need about four years ago. I was at Convocation, and the Universal Society of Ancient Ministries who was running Pagans In Need at the time was collecting food out in the hotel lobby for their chapter in southeast Michigan. I contacted them via their website and got a response from Gordon Ireland, and he had me fill out this paperwork for an intake form to be a partnering agency. We got to be a part of their organization. I was running all of Pagans In Need between both the Lansing and the southeast Michigan chapter, being oversight, making sure things were taken care of. Also became the secretary of the church and helped them run their day-to-day operations. In November of last year, we decided it was time for Pagans In Need to go off in its own direction. So at a board meeting I suggested that, and I resigned from the Universal Society of Ancient Ministries and here we are today, having Pagans In Need in Lansing and southeast Michigan so that we can make a difference in our community. Ode: So what are your dreams for PIN and your plans for it moving forward? Bill: I would like to get our 501c3 non-profit status, that we're a standalone organization. Currently we are under the 501c3 of Inner Ascended Masters Ministries, which is a spiritual community center here in Lansing. I would like to see more chapters of Pagans In Need, in some various cities here in the state, even in the state of Ohio, eventually across the country, but that’s time to come, not gonna happen today or tomorrow. Ode: Is Pagans In Need a religious organization? How does that affect your work? Bill: Pagans In Need is not a religious organization. We do use the word pagan and we do use the understanding that we’re out to help everybody. This both helps and hinders us in a way. It helps us because we don’t have a prescribed religious doctrine that we adhere to. Everybody is important. Everybody deserves the right to eat. We just help provide that catalyst so that they have food and a way to get the things they need. It also hinders us because some people see that word pagan, and they’re kinda shocked. It’s like, oh well, I gotta be a pagan, I gotta be a witch to get food from there, and that’s not the case. I don’t care what your religious background is. I just want you to be able to have food that you need to feed yourself and your family so that nobody’s going hungry. Ode: Tell us a little bit about your path as a pagan. How does your work with PIN fit into it? Bill: My path as a pagan. It’s a long one, been kinda changing quite a bit. Started out solitary, reading books as much as I could find back when I was about 18, 19 years old, 20. Then moved to Big Rapids and went to Ferris State, became part of a group called Earth Spirit. Practiced eclectically with a bunch of people. Then moved back to Lansing after college was done. Found some friends down here. Joined a coven. That coven dissolved and broke up. We started a new coven. Then another coven off that. I ran about two covens, then just kept being an eclectic and doing just different things that worked for me. Then found Cedar Song ADF which is a Druid fellowship here in Lansing. They’re a full-fledged grove, and I joined them and really enjoyed the sense of community. The way they did ritual was kinda freaky at first, but got to learn how it worked and what was, why it was done that way, and it made sense to me, and we have seven virtues that we go by: courage, perseverance, integrity, vision, wisdom, moderation, hospitality, fertility, and piety. Well, they all work really well with PIN, but the biggest one is hospitality and moderation and vision, because hospitality is about sharing what you have and making people feel comfortable and welcome. Moderation is knowing when enough’s enough, and the vision is to, just so we can see where we need to go and what we need to do to make the community better. I find that it works really well with PIN. I’ve had a druid, another member of the druid grove on the board for a while, but due to circumstances, needed to step off, which is understandable, because I have a rule with the pantry that family comes first. That’s important, and if you’re not taking care of yourself, how can you help others? I just find that working my pagan path, and doing the things that I need to do to make my community better fits in with the pantry really well. Ode: I know that PIN has community gardens, so talk just a little bit about that and PIN’s other sustainability initiatives. Bill: Community gardens. A couple years ago when I moved the pantry to its current location at Inner Ascended Masters Ministry, we decided to start a community garden. The first year was a very small garden that basically I ran, and with my life being crazy, it didn’t get the attention and care that it needed. We did get some food out of it to help people, but it just was a slump. So then the following year we went to the Garden Project which is part of the Greater Lansing Foodbank here in Lansing, and worked with them, went through some training classes and stuff, and grew our garden to 2700 square feet with 18 plantable plots. That year the pantry had four plots. We produced tomatoes and some green beans and carrots and radishes and squash and onions, and we had a decent bountiful harvest. This year, because I knew I was going to be busy again this summer, I didn’t put any garden space in. We do still have the community garden, and now next year, my plan is to do a bunch of heirloom seeds and have an heirloom garden where nothing is been modified genetically or anything like that. We keep using the seeds over and over again, and we have sustainability with that. Some other sustainability initiatives we’re working on in PIN is we’d like, the property that we’re on has about seven acres, and we’d like to put in some trees that fruit, bear fruit so that we can have apples and pears and peaches and cherries and things like that to help feed our people. Fresh is the best. It’s got the better nutrients for you. It’s not been cooked out. It’s right there. The problem is it’s a seasonal thing. After the season’s done, you’re pretty much done unless you find ways to preserve it. I’ve looked into some other sustainability initiatives, but don’t really, haven’t had time to dig deep into ‘em, and I’m always open to new suggestions. We also do for our community garden, have a rain barrel collection, so we collect our own water and try to get that into the garden so that we’re not using city water and costing us more money. This year we’ve purchased a pump to pressurize that so that we can actually use it through a sprinkler system. Ode: That all sounds really great. But what does the procedure look like for someone coming into the pantry for the first time? Walk us through the experience. Bill: When you first come to a pantry date, the way it works is you come in, and you bring a form of valid ID. I take the information off from that, such as name, address, date of birth, and then I ask for a telephone number. Telephone number is used in case of anything’s put on recall, we can give you a call and say hey, did you happen to take this from food pantry this week? If you did, please dispose of it if you haven’t used it because it’s been recalled. It’s a safety catch. Then we ask how many people are in your household, and then there’s a series of questions we ask. The series of questions asks if you receive food stamps, if you’ve used any other food pantries, if you’re disabled or on disability or unemployment, if the children receive free or reduced lunches at school, if you receive WIC, and then if anybody in the house that’s of age is unemployed. All that data is turned into numerical list of ones and zeroes so we just have a conglomerate at the end of the page, so we can give statistics when we apply for federal grants and things like that, and other monies to come towards us. Then depending on the size of your family, you’re given a card that has choices on it. It’s 100% a client choice pantry. So if you don’t like lima beans, you don’t have to take them. If you have a dietary restriction where you don’t eat pork, you don’t get it, you don’t have to take it. If you don’t eat carbs, you suffer from celiac disease. There’s just a whole host of things, or you’re allergic to something that you know you can’t have. It makes it where you’re choosing what you need. Then you go through, and it’s set up like a grocery store, and you pick your items and put them on a table at the end. We take the card, whoever’s working that pantry that day, looks at the card and looks at the items that you’ve pulled, matches up to make sure you haven’t taken more than you’re allotted. Then we take grocery bags from people that support the pantry. I know at my house we use paper bags from the local grocery store. When we get a bunch of them, we take them over there so that we have them for people to use to take their groceries home. We don’t put it in a cardboard box because it just doesn’t seem dignified. We put it in a bag so it looks like you went to the grocery store. The bags say the name of the store on the side of it, but it doesn’t matter. It’s the food that’s in them is what matters, not what the name of the bag is. But it gives you a sense of pride and dignity so that you don’t feel like you went to a food pantry. We do have personal care items, then we usually limit those to one to two per person. The Lansing chapter works with an organization called Helping Women Period. So we get feminine products so that we have those on hand, and I have people take at least a month’s worth so that they have some to get through their cycle, and if they need a little extra, take a little extra. So they have them. We also provide shampoo and conditioner and body wash and laundry soap on occasion, dish soap, toilet paper. The rule with the toilet paper is, every bum in the house gets one roll of toilet paper. We do have pet food available if needed. And then we have this cool shelf in the pantry called the close date shelf, ‘cause once things go out of date, we’re not allowed to give them out. So what we do is if it’s close date, we put it on that shelf, and it doesn’t count towards your totals. So let’s say we got some mac n’ cheese that’s gonna go out within the month. I put ‘em on that shelf, and if you want mac n’ cheese, limited to the amount of combination foods you get, but you know you’re gonna eat mac n’ cheese, you take what’s on that close date shelf, it doesn’t count toward your totals, and then you can go get other things out of the combination area. It makes it where we have a great experience for the clients. We don’t want them to feel embarrassed or anything like that. We want them to have, be able to hold their head up high, and make it where we can respect them as an individual. Ode: Honestly, it sounds like a really great experience. Well, thanks, Bill for coming on the podcast, and talking to me, and telling us about PIN. We were delighted to have you. Just, thanks for all that you do. Bill: Thank you guys for allowing me to have this time on your podcast to explain what the pantry is, and what we’re doing, and what we’re trying to work towards, and look forward to serving the community in anyway that we can. Thank you again, and have a wonderful day! Gwyn: That’s one of the things that I appreciate so much about Bill, and about Pagan in Need, is that their philosophy is just, people need food. Ode: May you never hunger. All: May you never thirst. Gwyn: People need food. They know what kind of food they need. They should be allowed to come in and get that food, and-- Ode: And go home! Gwyn: -- and go home without being preached at, without having to jump through a million hoops, and I love that philosophy, and I also love that they are also starting community gardens to help people learn how to grow their own food. Car: So that’s pretty much it for this episode, except for the one thing I forgot. Gwyn: What was that? Car: ODE’S! STONE! CORNER!!!!!! Ode: That was loud. (Gwyn laughs) Car: Yeah. It’s a wrestling announcer. I have to be loud. Ode: I know, I know. It was a good one, it was just loud. (Car laughs) Ode: Alright. Car: What are you saying? (whispers) Odes! Stone! (normal voice) No, it doesn’t have the same-- Gwyn: It doesn’t have the same-- Ode: Not resonant. Yeah. Car: Yeah, I have to be loud for that. Sorry. (Gwyn laughs) Ode: So today we’re gonna be talking about epidote, which, yeah, which the face Car is making right now is that’s not a rock. (all laugh) Ode: But it is, it is a rock. So epidote is actually a calcium aluminum iron sorosilicate mineral, which I know sounds like a lot of nonsense. Gwyn: Can you say that three times fast? Ode: Calcium aluminum iron sorosilicate mineral. Calcium aluminium iro sorosilic-- (blubbers) Nope! (Car and Gwyn laugh) Car: Nope! (all laugh) Ode: What that means is that it’s a rock forming mineral that’s composed of the elements calcium, aluminum, and iron in various configurations. It’s in the same sort of family, sorosilicates, as ziosite, which people are slightly more familiar with. What a sorosilicate is is just a mineral that has a silicon oxygen tetrahedron, and an ion combination of a two to seven ratio? That’s some science for you, enjoy that. (laughs) Gwyn: Okay. Ode: Quartz and feldspar are in a tectosilicate family, so they have like a three crystal framing-- nevermind. You don’t care. (Gwyn and Ode laugh) Car: No, I care! I just… Gwyn: Like, what? Car: I’m enthralled actually. Ode: Epidote is characterized by a yellow-green to middle green color, although it can come in gray, brown, and a near-black, depending on how much iron is present in the mineral. Car: That makes sense. Ode: It has pretty strong striations, a relatively wide range of diaphaneity, which is how translucent it is, so its crystalline form, epidote, can range from between completely transparent to nearly opaque. Car: Interesting, okay. Ode: And it’s prismatic, although you wouldn’t tell from the epidote. You mostly see tumbled epidote, which is almost always of the near opaque variety. It’s got sort of a mossy or a grassy appearance, and it’s usually in the middle to pistachio green range color. So, I mean, it’s a fairly recognizable stone when it’s tumbled, but in its crystalline form, it creates these extremely long crystal faces, and two faces typically will be stronger and longer than the other two, which is why it’s named epidote. That derives from the Greek word, epididonai, which means gives additionally or increase. Car: Oh, okay! Ode: So, I associate epidote with generosity and with improvement or addition. Car: Okay. Ode: Growing up things. It’s got a, kinda an earthy feeling. It’s not grounding actually, or at least I don’t experience it as grounding. But it is settling and uplifting at the same time. This is hard to describe. It’s like, epidote will get you established. It will create like, a firm foundation for you, but that foundation will be higher up than you are used to being. So it’ll (laughs), it’ll almost build scaffolding. It’ll be very, like-- Car: So growth. Ode: Yeah, exactly. Growth. So it’s not grounding in the same way that like, a bloodstone is sometimes grounding, where you feel very connected to the earth. Epidote is going to settle and establish you, but also prioritize the improvement of your situation. Car: So it would be a good stone to have if you’re working on something that requires forward movement, because you then don’t get that one step forward, two steps back. Ode: Exactly. Car: You get a step forward, and you stop, then you get a step forward, then step forward-- cool. Ode: There’s no, there’s very little plateauing with epidote. Car: Right. Ode: So epidote has what I call an up tone. It’s not like a high, what’s typically referred to as a high vibration, but it is optimistic, I guess? It’s not-- epidote isn’t gonna tell you to pick up yourself up by your bootstraps, but it will probably mom you. Epidote will tell you-- Gwyn: Hmm. I could use a mom stone. (laughs) Ode: Yeah. Epidote will tell you-- Car: No, you couldn’t. Ode: You are a mom. (laughs) But epidote will tell you that you can be the best you can be, like, and it’s gonna help you get there, like it’s just a very like, optimistic, cheery, but like, it’s also not gonna coddle you? Epidote is not gonna let you sort of wallow in your misery. It’s just gonna tell you okay, that’s enough now. Get goin’. Car: This should be the stone of the US Army. (Gwyn and Ode laugh) Car: Right? Ode: Yeah, probably. Car: Right, yeah. So, anyway. Ode: So epidote is traditionally used to boost, enhance, or elevate other energies. That’s its use in most like, mineralogy and crystal purposes. So it’s very much a team player. If you have a lot of energy going on at the same time, epidote can be brought in to mom all the other energies. Car: Oh, okay! Ode: To get everybody sort of on the same wavelength, make sure everybody’s working together, make sure that people aren’t at cross-purposes. Also in my experience epidote has a very “I give so that you may give” ethos. Epidote wants to improve your life, but it doesn’t want to do that just for you. It wants you to spread that wealth to others, and you may eventually get an instruction from epidote to pass it along. Car: Okay. Gwyn: Very cool. Ode: Yeah. Car: Would you then get another epidote? Ode: I would! Yeah, I would then go get another epidote. Gwyn: And gift it to someone? Ode: It just means that, yeah, exactly, but it would mean that this epidote, this mom was ready to go mom someone else. Car: Gotcha. Very cool. Thank you very much for ODE’S! STONE! CORNER!!!!!!!!! Was that better? Ode: Yeah, you suppressed it a little. (Ode and Gwyn laugh) Car: Right, I suppressed it the volume, and tried to keep the energy up. So that’s it for this episode. Gwyn: Mm-hmm. Car: Thank you, guys so much for listening through all of our madness. Thank you, Bill, for being here for the interview. Support your local pagan everything. Ode: Yeah, your local pagan store-- Gwyn: Do some research! Ode: Your local pagan activism communities. They probably exist. They may be small. They might have secret Facebook groups that you have to ask to join. Car: Exactly. Ode: Just bite the bullet and ask to join them. Car: Yep. Gwyn: And do some research. Find out, you know, what’s going on in your area, what are you passionate about, and then take a chance. Ode: (laughs) A piece of advice that we were given at Michigan Pagan Fest by T. Thorne Coyle, I do believe-- Car: Oh yeah. Gwyn: Oh, right, right, right. Ode: --was pick one thing. Gwyn: Right. Car: Yep. Ode: Pick-- there’s a lot happening in the world all the time and you can’t do everything. Gwyn: No, that’s true. Ode: Pick one thing to be passionate about. Make that piece of activism your focus and let everything else, assume your neighbors are taking care of it. Car: Yep. That’s a good call, yeah. Gwyn: That makes sense. Car: I think you can be overwhelmed by everything-- Ode: And then you burn out, and when you burn out, you’re not helping anybody. Gwyn: Exactly. So find your one passion, and then reach out. Ode: Yep. Car: So you can find us on 3PagansAndACat.com, that’s the number 3PagansAndACat.com. You can also find us on Facebook at 3PaaC, you can-- Ode: 3-P-A-A-C. Car: Yes, 3-P-A-A-C, because “and a.” (Ode laughs) Car: You can also find us on Twitter, which is… Gwyn: 3. Car: Underscore Pagans. Thank you. I knew I was gonna do it wrong, but I was like, hesitation? Ode: Uh-huh. Car: Discord server, which thank you very much to AkaNeko for hanging out with us today. Gwyn: Yeah! Ode: We’ve enjoyed having you here Car: Yep, we’ve enjoyed having you here, being a part of this. Ode: Mm-hmm Gwyn: Mm-hmm. Car: That’s it! Ode: Yeah, I think that’s everything. Gwyn: Oh, we’ve gotta remember to tell people if you want to support us on Patreon-- Ode: Oh yeah, we have one of those too. You can get to that on the website. Car: Oh yeah. Gwyn: You can join the Pride, and-- Ode: You can have your name read out loud. (laughs) Gwyn: --have your name read out loud, or there are various-- Car: Levels. Gwyn: --levels where you get different-- Ode: Like our kittens! Car: Right. Gwyn: Yeah, and you get different perks, I guess, for being, or rewards for the level you choose. Ode: Some of them are cool. (laughs) Gwyn: Some of them are pretty cool, I think, and -- Ode: I mean personally, I like the Hunter tier where you just get to join us in the Discord. Gwyn: Right! We like that. And, but anyway, yeah. So go to 3PagansAndACat.com to find the Patreon. Ode: Mm-hmm. Car: Yep. Gwyn: Oh, and the shop. Ode: Oh yeah, we have one of those too. We have a RedBubble. (Gwyn laughs) Car: Yeah. Ode: Where you can buy shirts with our logo on it. (laughs) Gwyn: And other stuff. Lots of stuff. Car: Yep. Ode: Mugs, phone cases, notebooks, whatever. Gwyn: So all that. Car: And not just 3 Pagans and a Cat logo. It’s got-- Gwyn: Your art. Ode: Oh yeah. There’s also some photos and art and stuff that I’ve done just because we might as well sell those. Gwyn: So just go check it out. (laughs) Car: Yeah. So there’s all that other stuff too. Are we done now? Gwyn: Yeah, I think so. Ode: I think so? Car: Okay. We’re good? Gwyn: I think so. Car: Alright, good. Did you all come up with like, some kind of ending song or anything? Ode: No, no. Gwyn: No, that has to be organic. Ode: Yeah, we’ll know. Gwyn: We can’t have you ask. We’ll just know someday. We’ll know when it happens. Ode: We’ll know. Car: Alright. Ode: You’ll never see it coming. Gwyn: You’ll never see it coming. It’ll just happen. Ode: It’ll be a dread secret. Gwyn: It will be. It will be awesome. Ode: It’ll be one of those things we never talk about out loud, because you would know. Gwyn: And you’ll cringe. And you’ll like it at the same time. (laughs) Bye! (Ode and Gwyn laugh) Car: You’ve been listening to 3 Pagans and a Cat. Find out more information at www.3PagansAndACat.com.