Rabbi Isaac Saposnik: We're so used to saying that kids are Jewish because of what they do at home, or what they do at the synagogue, or what their parents do. And it's things that they can't always control. Part of what I think makes Jewish summer camp so powerful, is that it's a place where kids actually can control their Jewish life. Bryan S.: From the recording studios of Reconstructing Judaism, this is TrendingJewish with Bryan Schwartzman ... Rachael Burgess: And Rachel Burgess. Bryan S.: Welcome to our camp episode. Can you hear it? We're here lakeside or poolside, stream man made audio. No, just kidding. We're in the recording studio. That's how I opened it. Rachael Burgess: Before we talk to our next guest, we want to encourage you to... Bryan S.: Bribe you, beg you, plead. Rachael Burgess: Plead with you, beg, to definitely subscribe to us. We are on iTunes. We're on Spotify. Bryan S.: To Podcast Addict. Does anyone still use that? Rachael Burgess: There are some people that have the Apple Podcast, and then there are monsters, that's where I am. Bryan S.: Leave us a five star review on iTunes. It'll help us a lot, and we'll give you something. What will we give you? Rachael Burgess: We'll give you a good shout out, and- Bryan S.: I think that deserves a shout out. Rachael Burgess: We definitely will give you a shout out here on our show, and our gratefulness, and our love and respect. Bryan S.: If that doesn't work, we'll come up with something else the next time. All right. This is a fun episode where we're looking forward to the summer to talk about Jewish camp. And you said you never went to Jewish camp, and that- Rachael Burgess: Yeah. My personal experience, because I grew up in the middle of nowhere in Arizona, the closest Federation we had to us was 70 miles away, so I am sure there are plenty of great summer camps out in Arizona, but I did not hear about any of them. Bryan S.: I also basically, didn't really have a Jewish camp experience for summer to day camp. Rachael Burgess: I'm actually kind of curious, as I'm interrupting you, as is per our usual, because I think- Bryan S.: Why is today different from all other days? Rachael Burgess: One of the things that I think is really interesting is your perspective, because now you are a parent of two young children, and that's got to be something that you must think about, is how are your kids going to stay connected to Judaism in the long term throughout their lives? Bryan S.: Thoughts have occurred to me. And there's a lot to balance. I mean, I can say I'm a Jewish professional, I've read the studies, I've been to camp. I mean, this summer we're not sending our kids to a Jewish camp. Maybe next summer. A lot of forces have to line up, which I think relates to some of the challenges Jewish camps have to face in attracting people. Bryan S.: All right. Folks want to get to the reason we're here. Rachael Burgess: If we haven't kept you in suspense long enough about Jewish summer camps, we are happy to introduce you to the executive director of the Havaya summer programs, Rabbi Isaac Saposnik, who is the overall executive director of both Camp Havaya in in the Poconos, in Northeast Pennsylvania, and also our newest camp, which is Havaya Arts out in California, in the Redlands. And we're excited to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us, Rabbi Isaac Saposnik. Isaac Saposnik: My pleasure. I'm happy to be here. Rachael Burgess: And taking a little bit of a break from recruiting for camp, and getting us ready for the summer. Isaac Saposnik: Just for a moment, and then back on the road. Rachael Burgess: Knowing a little bit about your background, it seems like it wasn't a surprise to, I guess, you or anybody that you would end up working in Jewish camp. What is your camp story? How did you get here? Isaac Saposnik: My parents sent me to summer camp for the first time when I was going into fourth grade, to an Amish style farm in Ohio. It was Monday morning through Friday afternoon, and it was everything you'd imagine from a farm. We milk the goats in the morning, and the field trip was to the livestock auction. I mean, this was a serious farm experience. And, going into sixth grade, they sent me with a friend to Jewish summer camp for the first time. And, it ended up that we were in a large camp, and the friend was in one spot in camp, and I was in a different spot, I went really knowing nobody. And, that for me was it. It just changed my life in that way. It was the place where I found that I could be most myself, and comfortable, and where I had the closest friends I had any place else in life. Isaac Saposnik: And I tell people, I started going to Jewish summer camp going into sixth grade and I haven't stopped. Was a camper for years, and a counselor, and a unit head at that camp. And then, after college, worked there year round for a couple of years, and when I came to rabbinical school at RRC, I said out loud, "I really would love to be a camp director when I come out of here." And, had no expectation that it would happen quite that easily, or that it would happen, really, right when I graduated. And I had the great good fortune during my time at RRC to work for what was then called Camp JRF, and for Rabbi Jeff Eisenstat, who was our founding director. And, to work closely with him as camp was building and growing over the early years, and when I graduated, he was looking to step back from the day to day, and I was looking to step more into the day to day, and stepped into what is really my dream job. Isaac Saposnik: I can't think of anything better than getting to spend my summer helping kids have the same amazing experiences that I had when I was a kid, and also spending my time creating this welcoming, inclusive, celebratory, engaging Jewish community that I think is really what we're all about. Bryan S.: How long ago did this happen? Isaac Saposnik: That- Bryan S.: You graduated, that you started camp, that timeframe. Isaac Saposnik: Camp Havaya started in 2002. I started working there just after the first summer, and then graduated fromr RRC in 2008. And I like to say, I graduated on a Sunday afternoon, and Monday morning I was giving a Dvar Torah as the camp director. I recommend a little more time in between. But I've been been the director, and now executive director, for 12, 13 years. Rachael Burgess: And you were actually sought out by several different camps, it sounded like, and what made you want to come to Camp JRF at the time, now Camp Havaya? It was a very, very new camp, and it's actually relative to other camps, it's actually still fairly young. And, you've also just started a second camp out in California, which is also very young. Why go to, I guess, a smaller, newer camp, rather than going to something that's already established? Isaac Saposnik: It's a great question. For me, a lot of that had to do with coming to RRC. I grew up in a Reconstructionist congregation, and when I was applying to rabbinical school, I had the opportunity to look in a variety of places, and stepped into RRC and said, "Oh, this is home for me." It was just really clear that it was the place where I wanted to spend the next six years really learning, and engaging, and grappling. I remember really clearly the day that this happened, [I] was sitting in the office where I was working in Chicago in March or April, before I was starting, and the phone rang, and I said hello, and it was someone who said, "Would you be interested as you're starting rabbinical school, also in working with this camp that's just starting?" And, I jumped out of my chair and said, "Yes." Isaac Saposnik: I mean, the camp where I grew up is an amazing camp, and I wouldn't trade that experience for anything in the world, both for the experience, and for the friendships that I continue to have from it. And at the same time, I often say this is the camp where I would have wanted to go as a kid. And now that we have Havaya Arts, that's also the camp I would have wanted to go to as a kid, that I didn't as a kid even imagine could exist. And, for me, being able to be at something from the beginning, and to be part of building it, and creating a culture that is both about the kids experience, and about the organizational culture, was really an exciting opportunity that I didn't see any place else. Bryan S.: I mean, I know at Havaya you've got a zip line over a lake. Do you have a favorite activity at either ofthe camps who run, or ... Isaac Saposnik: I think that for me, personally, my favorite moments at camp is, there are moments where the whole community is singing together, and there's just a moment where everything just lifts up. it's that moment where all the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, and you go, "Oh, there's something else going on here. Something bigger." And, that happens for me with some frequency when we're in the Poconos. And last summer when I was at Havaya Arts for the first time, there were moments there, even with a small group of kids who were just creating the community for the first time, where they would sing, or be together in a way that you could just feel the sense of community. And for me, all of the fun stuff that the kids love, is part of what makes the camp experience so amazing for them, and what I know, and what we hope is that these other moments will stick with them in ways that they can't necessarily name, or explain, but will be with them far longer than the experience of the zip line, which is awesome, but it's something you do versus something that you really feel, and that feeling is so central to what we're really trying to do. Bryan S.: I think this is unscripted, but ... Isaac Saposnik: I'm okay with unscripted. Bryan S.: I think it's central, you're really in the business of not molding identities, but helping people figure out who they are, and hopefully, taking some value and wisdom from Jewish tradition with that. And I think there's an increasing realization that, that camp is doing that better than, and all camps are doing that better than most institutions. I have a bunch of questions related to that, but I guess, the first is just how does that work? How does two weeks, a month, eight weeks away from home, how does that shape someone or really make to really make a difference in their life, or feel like they're finding a part of themselves that they never found before? Isaac Saposnik: I think that's the ... Like you said, I think that's the crux of what we do, and there's a couple of responses. One of them is, there are camps that want kids to know certain things when they come out. And I often say for us, I want kids to know things, certainly, but what I really want is for them to be deeply in love with being Jewish, because I feel like, if they love being Jewish, and they love being part of the community, the rest will come. But just because you have knowledge doesn't necessarily mean that you know how to build that same feeling, and that same connection. And, part of what I often say when I'm thinking about camp, and I'm thinking about Jewish life, is that I want kids to pull themselves up to the table of Judaism. We're so used to saying that kids are Jewish because of what they do at home, or what they do at the synagogue, or what their parents do, and it's things that they can't always control. Isaac Saposnik: And part of what I think makes Jewish summer camp so powerful, is that it's a place where kids actually can control their Jewish life. Sure, we tell them now it's time for services, or now it's time that we're going to learn something, or here's the music that we're going to sing, or here's what this building is going to be called in Hebrew. We do all of that to set the atmosphere, and to set the experience, but if you're a kid, and you want to get really into services, you can do it, and it's built around you. And if you're a kid who doesn't get into services, but we offer yoga one morning a week instead, and you say, "Wait a second, why yoga?", and the response is, "Because that's also a spiritual practice for a lot of people, and how can we help you think about that in a Jewish setting?" Isaac Saposnik: We're we're giving kids the ... Skills isn't quite the right word, but we're giving kids the experiences that they can take home with them, and figure out how they want to be Jewish, and how they want to live their Jewish lives. And that's, I think, what makes it stick. There's all this research from a handful of years ago, the Foundation for Jewish Camp, had a study done that they called Camp Works. And, the research came back that kids who go to Jewish summer camp are significantly more likely than their peers to -- fill in the blank. And "fill in the blank: was things like, light Shabbat candles, belong to a synagogue, give philanthropically to the Jewish Federation, feel deeply connected to Israel, and there were a couple of other things. And, the research talked about, that kids who went to Jewish summer camp were significantly more likely to do those things than their peers who didn't go to camp, and that camp was more impactful on those kinds of things than youth group, or day school, or Israel trips, all of which are also important, but it was camp that really was the linchpin in what was going to, to some extent, guarantee Jewish commitment and connection later in life. Isaac Saposnik: And, I both love that study, and I'm challenged by it, because I'm not sure that what it measures is any longer what we would measure as Jewish commitment. We have lots of kids, and lots of families who care deeply about being Jewish, but may not light Shabbat candles, or may struggle with Israel, or may not belong to a congregation because of where they are in their life or in the world. So how do we make sure that their commitment to Judaism is deep, and meaningful, and personal, even if it doesn't look how we as a Jewish community always thought it had to? And so that's, I think, what we're really trying to push our kids to do, is to figure out what is the meaning that they find in Judaism, because that's what's going to last far longer than us saying, "You have to know, or do these particular things?" Rachael Burgess: How do you foster that, where you have two camps, and you get more than 300 campers a summer, and these are very personal, unique experiences- Isaac Saposnik: We're close to 500. Rachael Burgess: Oh my gosh, I'm sorry. My numbers are off here. Isaac Saposnik: That's totally fine. I'm happy to be able to say that. Rachael Burgess: How do you make all of those into ... How do you foster all of these very personal individual experiences with so many campers from so many different areas, and experiences, and family situations? Isaac Saposnik: I think that part of the building the experience is about, creating opportunities for kids to make their own meaning. One of my favorite educational programs from over the years at Camp Havaya was, and I tell parents about this frequently when they're asking about educational programming, I talk about making pizza is a conversation around community. If you're in a cabin of 10 kids, and you have to make a pizza together, and somebody in your cabin loves olives, and somebody in your cabin hates olives, how do you make that pizza? You could make a pizza with no olives, because if somebody really doesn't want them, then you have to keep them off. Or you could make a pizza where every kid has their own slice, and it has olives one slice, but not on the next slice. Isaac Saposnik: Both of those are conversations about community, and about values, and about living together. And I often say that kids walk out of that thinking, "Oh, look, I made pizza. Wasn't that fun?" But there's something deeper that's getting in there, and, we're not telling them what that deeper is. We're not sitting down and say, "Here's the value of community, and here's how we explain it, and here's what it means to you." We're saying, "Let's talk about community. Let's think about what's important to you.", and they get to make that meaning for themselves. I saw it happen last summer at Havaya Arts. I should step back and say, part of what makes Havaya Arts so special is that, it's one of these specialty camps that's about kids who wouldn't necessarily otherwise look for a Jewish camp, but in our case, really want to spend time deeply engaged in some art form, visual art, or theater, or music, or dance. Isaac Saposnik: And, if they can do that in a setting that's Jewish, how much better. And I walked into the visual art studio last summer, and said to a group of kids, "Tell me what you're working on,", and they could show me the canvas that they were painting on. And what they were doing, and as they were showing me that, they really, off the cuff, without any prep from their teaching artist, or from our camp director, or from their counselors, said, "Well, this is based on this text in Genesis, and here's what it means, and here's what I learned about it." And, they did it in a way that wasn't pedantic. It wasn't about saying, "Well, now I have to tell the rabbi the Jewish thing, because this is what he wants to hear." They said that at the same moments that they said, "And after we started, our teaching artist always changes something up on us. And he took us outside, and made us do something totally different." It was just part of the experience for them. And, that I think is really how we aim to do most of what we do, that we want to give kids the ground from which to have the experience, and, sure, there are parts of it that we frame in a very particular way, because we share Reconstructionist values, and we share a view of the world that we want our kids to be thinking in a particular paradigm. Isaac Saposnik: But we also recognize that, not every kid, and not every family, has exactly that same paradigm. So, how do we give them the space to do that? I think it was around Parkland, just over a year ago, when we were talking about how to reach out to families, and what to talk about. And somebody said to me, "Well, why aren't you just coming out wholesale against guns?" And I said, "Because that's not actually our job. Our job is to give parents, and to give kids the resources to talk about challenging issues, and to think about challenging issues, but our job is not to give them the answer." And, while I have a view, and I have an expectation, and I have an experience, and I have a certain set of values that I think are shared by many in our community, there certainly are pieces that are not shared in quite the same way. And if I'm giving the answer, then I'm not really doing my job. And, that was a different way for people to think. Isaac Saposnik: They said, "Well, no, but this is what camp should be saying." And I said, "No, camp's job is to be setting kids up to say what's important to them, not to say, "Oh, this is what's important to my camp." What's important to their camp, is that they learn to think for themselves, and to ask challenging questions, and to be civically engaged in ways that are meaningful to them, and will last them far beyond two weeks, or four weeks, or seven weeks over the summer. Bryan S.: Since you dipped into Havaya Arts, and specialty camps, I'll follow up and ask, can you talk a little bit about some of the trends you're seeing in either camping today, or Jewish camping today, and how your two camps are adjusting to that? Isaac Saposnik: Yeah. I think that there's a couple of pieces. In terms of the specialty camps piece, the foundation for Jewish camp, a number of years ago, began a really deep relationship with the Jim Joseph Foundation, and the AVI CHAI foundation on their specialty camps incubator, and began opening camps that were specialty focused. There are farm to table camps, and there are sports camps, and there are science and technology camps, and, now there's arts camps, which there had never been before. And, the idea there was, "How do we reach kids who aren't looking necessarily for the Jewish camp experience writ large, they're not looking for a traditional camp, they're not looking to spend four weeks necessarily in the mountains, on the zip line, and swimming, and sports, and arts, and Jewish experience, but they want much more specialized experiences with high level staff, and really the ability to dive in?" Isaac Saposnik: And, when we started looking at opportunities to open a second camp, and the foundation was beginning their third round of the specialty camps incubator, we had this great opportunity to say, "If we were going to open a specialty camp, what would it look like?" And it was really clear to us from the get go, that arts was it. Just from the beginning of the Reconstructionist movement, this commitment to the arts and culture, was this opportunity for kids to really dive in. And what we're finding are, that the kids who are coming, are in fact, kids who, either have had the, "traditional" camp experience, and said, "It's not quite for me," or kids who have never thought about Jewish camp, but see this opportunity to work with a professional dancer, or to work with an amazing visual artist, or to work with a theater specialist who's run theater programs, or a musician who's working gigs in Los Angeles, they want that experience to dive in deeper, and that's pulling new kids in. I think that's one thing that we're seeing in terms of trends in camping, and we're seeing that with both the new camps that start, as well as specialty programs inside traditional camps in certain places. Isaac Saposnik: The other two trends that I think we're seeing, one is a trend towards shorter sessions. 25, 30 years ago, and longer than that, especially on the East Coast, parents would send their kids away for eight weeks. Would put 'em on the bus at the beginning of the summer and say, "See ya." And the kid would go to camp, have an amazing time, would come home. And, that was the expectation that summer camp was an eight week experience. That's been changing over the last number of years, led in part by the fact, interestingly, that, on the West Coast, the camping experience tends to be shorter. And we're seeing that now across the country. Camp Havaya where for years we offered a one or two week experience for first time campers who were third and fourth grade, we've moved the last number of years to having a two week session for any camper who's coming for the first time. Could be third or fourth grade, or could be a high schooler who hasn't ever been away to summer camp before, and wants the experience, but isn't quite ready to go for an extended period of time. Isaac Saposnik: There are a lot of camps that we know, that pushed against this, and said, "Nope, still four weeks, seven weeks, the full experience." And we've said to parents, "We believe that full experience is the best experience you can have, to come for a full session of three or four weeks, but we would much rather a kid start camp for two weeks, or on the rare occasion, one week, than for them not to start." Because, what we know is that, once you come in, the likelihood is that you'll want to stay. Our job then is to make the experience as amazing as possible, so that they want to stick with it, whether it's to stay longer in that first summer, or to come back the following year. Rachael Burgess: That takes a certain level of bravery too. I think about it as a business point of view. That's potentially less income coming in, less consistency, and ... That can be scary for a camp to be able to say, "Listen, shorter sessions is okay if this is what people feel comfortable with." Isaac Saposnik: It's worth saying, first of all, that we're, as you said before, we're a younger camp that's continuing to grow. So, we have the space to play with that experience in some ways, in terms of length of time. But we also looked at it and said, "If a kid doesn't come to us for two weeks, they're going to go someplace else for two weeks. And if they go someplace else, that's where they're going to stay, in all likelihood." This is a long view for us. I realized this a number of years ago around recruitment, that I used to think that when we were out in congregations, or out in camp fairs, or out in other places, recruiting campers, we were looking for campers for this summer. And, we are looking for campers for this summer, but the reality is, we're also looking for campers for next summer, and the summer after, and the summer after. We have kids who signed up for camp in the last couple of weeks, who we met for the first time four years ago, and are now finally ready for camp. Isaac Saposnik: And, for us, that's the same thing with two weeks. If you're ready to try camp, but four weeks is what's getting in your way, and I know that we can provide you a stellar experience in two weeks, and that, that's part of what's going to help you dive deeper into Jewish community in some way, then, I'd be foolish not to find an opportunity for that, because what we want is kids in the experience. Bryan S.: I mean, I don't know if it's part of the reason of the trend behind shorter sessions, but clearly, the relationship between parents and kids has changed in the past number of decades. I mean, you don't see kids getting sent out for the afternoon, and told to be home for dinner, and the parents have no idea where they are. Isaac Saposnik: Right. Bryan S.: I guess, I wanted to A, get at what the electronics policy is at camp, because parents are, "Hey, where are you? be home in five minutes," that kind of thing. And B, if you're seeing changes, the campers you get, and the experience they have, and how they become their own selves in an environment where they're mostly cut off from ... Not cut off, but they're not seeing their parents, they're, I think, not on electronics, you could clarify, but ... Isaac Saposnik: Yeah, we are happy to say we have a no screens policy. That means no phones, no iPhones, no iPads, no Game Boys, PSP, none of those things, because we want kids to be fully present. Now, we know that there are kids who need music to fall asleep, or have their B'nai Mitzvah tutoring on their iPad. And so, there's ways that we figure out if kids need something for a particular reason, but big picture, at both of our camps, we say no screens, because what we know is that those screens take away from the ability to build one on one connections, and to build community. And what we hear from kids as we travel during the year when they talk about what they most love about camp, we hear from a lot of kids that, that's actually one of their favorite parts of camp, that, once they can really let go of it, they don't miss it. Now, the minute that they get it back, they go straight back into it. Don't get me wrong, but In that two weeks, or three weeks, or four weeks in between, they're able to just be present. Isaac Saposnik: And, what we've realized over the years, to your question about parenting being different, is that, we as an organization are there just as much for the parents as we are for the kids. We tell parents all the time that, while in general, we don't have parents speak to kids on the phone, that doesn't mean that parents can't call us every day. And they're going to speak to one of our camp directors, who knows their child, and knows what's going on in camp, and has built a relationship with them over the year, so that, that sense of trust is really there. If you're going to send your kid away for an extended period of time, and you're going to spend the amount of money it costs to go to camp, you want to trust the people you're doing that with. And for us, it's all about building that trust. Parents now, when they send their kids to camp, expect that they're going to see photos posted every day, or every couple of days on a secure website. They want the opportunity as they can at both of our camps to email their children. They want the ability to call camp, or email camp, and hear what's going on, and ask questions, and be engaged. And, we work really hard to be in touch with families, and parents, again, if not every day, then every other day, or every couple of days to say, "Here's what's going on in camp." Isaac Saposnik: And, that I think, allows parents to let go in a different way, and to give their child that opportunity to really explore who they are, and explore some of these things for themselves, and one of the best pieces of feedback we can ever get from parents at the end of the summer is when they say, "My child came back so much more comfortable in their own skin. So much more at ease with themselves, and so much more responsible for the world around them." That means that we're doing something right. And again, that's partially because kids pull each other up. It's not because I'm standing there saying, "Oh, you have to do X, Y, Z or A, B, C, it's because, kids will say to each other, "Come on, let's go do this" or, "Oh, we have to clean up now" or, "Oh, this is happening." And when they're not with their noses in their phones, or trying to think about what their next Snapchat's going to be, they can really engage in those conversations. Rachael Burgess: Thinking about the children feeling more comfortable in their skin, I think, one of the things that amazed me the first time, stuff from, the movement went up to go see camp, because you hear a lot of progressive organizations say that we're a welcoming, inclusive community. And, when you come to camp, you definitely see that, where every camper, every kid imaginable is at camp. You see everybody. I guess, how did camp get to be that way, and how do you keep an eye on being sensitive to the different identities of campers? Isaac Saposnik: I think, we're a movement-based camp. The Reconstructionist movement has said from the outset that it's deeply committed to egalitarianism, and to inclusion, and to what we often call celebratory community. It's not just saying, "Oh, welcome,"or "Sure, you're included," but everybody's celebrated for all that they are. it was truly a no brainer for us to say, "Our job is to be a place that's welcoming of everybody." I often say that the Jewish community is a very diverse community, but the organized Jewish community doesn't always look that way. And part of what we see as our job, is to make sure that camp actually looks like the full diversity of the Jewish community, not just what folks might "expect" to see when they walk into certain Jewish spaces. And so that means, really being upfront about being welcoming of LGBTQ kids, and kids from LGBTQ families, and kids of color, and interfaith families, and kids with some special needs, and kids from all socioeconomic backgrounds as well. Isaac Saposnik: And, part of what we really have focused on in serious ways over the last five to 10 years, is, "How do we make sure that we're doing each of those things, and thinking about each of those different kinds of diversity, in a way that is meaningful, and thoughtful, and as celebratory as possible." There's moments where we do it really, really well, and other moments where we say, "Oh, that was not our best moment.", and then we go back and learn from others, and ask for advice, and try to figure out how it is that we can be even better. I often say, "We are not the only Jewish camp that has a diverse community of kids." And in fact, it's exciting to see the ways in which other camps are beginning to focus on diversity in a variety of ways. But I will say that we're one of the first camps, and still one of our only, I think, a small handful, who focus on diversity, and celebratory community, in a way that is proactive, not just reactive. Isaac Saposnik: We'll begin conversations about "How do we make sure that we can be fully welcoming of trans campers?", long before we ever heard from a trans kid. But, that allowed us to do, when we first had the conversation was to say, "Now we have questions to ask, and things to think about, and things to figure out," but the conversation was never, "if we're going to do this," it's, "how are we going to do it well?" And the same thing if we think about socioeconomic diversity, for example. We know that we have kids from all different socioeconomic backgrounds. It's why we provide a lot of financial aid. And, we often say, "Financial aid's going to kids whose families can barely make ends meet, and it's also going to kids whose parents are both working, and have great jobs, but say, "Camp's expensive, I can't get all the way there." And our job is to say, "Okay, how do we make that possible?" And, I think for us, it's just, it's an ongoing commitment to having a diverse community, and an ongoing commitment to learning, and to growing, and to being willing to say, "Where do we have more space to build this, and to grow this?" and are open to that feedback from parents who say "This was awesome," or "Have you thought about that?" Isaac Saposnik: I think that's part of how you get that feeling when you walk in, that kids know they can be fully themselves. This tagline of "Be you, boldly", for camp Havaya, "Be you, creatively", for Havaya Arts, the "Be you" is the important part there. It's that, we want kids to be fully themselves, and that stems from the moment that they step into camp, and part of what's exciting is that, they take responsibility for building that amongst each other, so that, that becomes just part of the ethos, and part of the feeling of camp. Bryan S.: I mean, you mentioned gender identity, which I think, as you hinted, it's one thing to say, we're welcoming, it's another thing to be proactive, or to think through the practical considerations that could come up, like, "How do we deal with bunks, or communal bathrooms, or things like that?" I mean, with each kid being so individual, how do you think through those things ahead of time, or do you just have to find solutions on case by case bases? Isaac Saposnik: There's some things that we think about broadly. For example, we still have boys' bunks and girls' punks. There's conversation that's beginning in the world now, around non gendered bunks, and we've decided that for where we are right now, in terms of being a community based camp, with kids from all kinds of families, and with all different experiences, that at this moment in time, what makes the most sense in our community is to have still bunks that are separated by gender. But, they're separated by gender, so if you're a kid who comes in and says, "I'm a boy," it doesn't matter what body parts you have, that's the cabin you choose to live in, that's great. And, for some kids, they're going to say, "I want to shower in the bunk," and other kids are going to say, "I don't feel comfortable showering in the bunk, I want to shower in the health center." Or, a kid will say, "I'm okay showering in the bunk, but the bathroom needs to be more private." And so, for us, it is both, we've made a conscious effort to create spaces, and to renovate spaces as we've been updating our cabins, that theoretically, would make any camper comfortable. Isaac Saposnik: I often say, when we've redone bathrooms that used to be a big room that had two sinks, and two toilets, and two showers, we've now turned into two rooms that I often say, "Looks just like your house bathroom, except that it's not at all like your house, 'cause it's summer camp." But it's a room where you can walk in, and shut the door, and there's a toilet, and a sink, and a shower, all in there, in the space where you can really close the door and have true privacy. And, while we may have begun that conversation around gender identity conversations, the reality is, I was a kid who would have wanted that as well, so that, that there's kids who want to be more private, or there's kids who have body image concerns, or there's kids ... That the changes that we're making are not, "Oh, there's nothing on the door that says, this was made into this bathroom because of kids of various gender identity." It's for any kid, because that's part of how we build things. Isaac Saposnik: And some of it's a value statement writ large, and some of it is an understanding that every kid, like you said, is different. When people ... We get calls from other camps pretty frequently, asking how we do things around gender identity, and especially how we've been welcoming to transgender campers, and they say, "Can you send us your policy?" And I often say, "No, because we don't have a written policy. Our policy, such as it is, is to meet every camper where they are, and we'll have a conversation with their family. and say, 'What's comfortable for your child, and what makes sense?'" And there may be points where we say along the way, "We don't think that's going to work well in this environment. Let's think it through with you." The last thing we'll do, is put a kid in a setting where we don't think that we can make that the best possible experience for a kid. And so, we'll be up front with a family, if we think something isn't going to be successful, we'll say, "We don't think that's going to work." And we'd rather have a difficult conversation with a family in advance of the summer, than have a kid come to camp and be in the wrong environment, or the wrong setting. Isaac Saposnik: And, that one on one conversation is part of how we've built ourselves over the years, and it's part of what we've become known for, and it's part of the reason, frankly, that, when our board talks about how big camp will get, we've put a cap at a certain number that is not about filling every last bed, then building more beds, and growing, and growing, and growing, but, staying in a size where, we can know all of our families, and they can know us, and we can have that relationship where, again, they can call and speak to our camp director on the phone anytime over the summer on either Coast, means that they know that we're caring for their child, as a child, and an individual, and as we often say, as their most precious gift that they can give us for the summer. And so, that one on one is part of how we've built our program, and built our reputation. Rachael Burgess: Being conscious of the time, I guess, before we wrap up, I'm curious, what can we expect at our Havaya Camp programs this summer as you are actively recruiting, and planning? What can kids expect? Isaac Saposnik: Oh, the best summer of their lives. That'll be my shortest answer all day. I think that, what kids can expect at Havaya Arts is this in-depth arts experience that weaves Judaism in a way that is seamless, and in a way that they're learning from resident teaching artists who are truly experts in their fields. And, we've heard from kids who were there last summer, that they're coming back specifically to spend time with the teaching artists they were with last year. And, that ability for a kid who wants to spend three hours a day dancing, is a pretty incredible opportunity that they can't have many other places. And to do it in a place that shares their values, and where they can build friends, is all the better. At Camp Havaya, they can expect to have the full camp experience, and we're focusing more and more on building up our program. Isaac Saposnik: We've said for years that the reason you come to camp is for community, and that's true, that the community feel, and the ability to be fully yourself is truly what's core in each of our camp programs. But what we know more and more, is that families, when they're looking for summer camp, are looking for the deep level of program, and the high level of teaching, and the creativity of the experience, and so, we're looking at that, and building that on the East Coast as well. And then, as our teens get older, and they go with us to Israel for four weeks, we're continuing to find ways that, that trip can give our teens the experiences that let them make up their minds for themselves. They're going to all the places you'd imagine that you'd go on an Israel trip, but we're also taking them to more out of the way places, and to have more challenging conversations, because, and we talked about this a bit before, our job there is not to say to them, "Here's what you believe about Israel when you leave," but to challenge what they already believe, and to help them make up their own minds for themselves, because that will only help them be stronger, and more deeply committed Jews as they grow up. Bryan S.: All right. Just to put you on the spot, just a little bit before we let you out of the hot seat, so to speak. Despite all of the efforts and research, I think we're still clearly at a point where the majority of Jewish kids in this country, and the world, are not having an overnight summer experience. And I've heard talk of, "Well, if we can't get kids to camp, we can find ways to take aspects of the camp experience, and bring it to kids in their synagogue, or their youth group, or wherever else." I mean, is that possible in any way, or there's no substitute for camp in your view? Isaac Saposnik: Yes to all of those. Right now ... It's a good rabbinic answer. But, right now, about 10% of Jewish kids in North America go to a Jewish overnight summer camp. That's more than it was 15 years ago, but that leaves an inordinately large number of Jewish kids who are either not going to camp, or are going to private camps, or are having other experiences. The 10% who are going to Jewish overnight camp, there's so much room for growth there. I'm a firm believer that you can't take the camp experience, and replicate it someplace else. There's no place else where you can be away from your parents, in an environment where you are surrounded mostly by your peers, where even if there's adults around who are leading various programs, the people who you see as your closest adults, are your counselors, who are college age folks, where that idea of peer mentorship, and peer leadership, you can have it someplace else, but you have to go someplace for that to happen. During the year, kids have to go somewhere, or have to have a moment where they are Jewish, or where they feel that. Isaac Saposnik: We're having Shabbat dinner, or we're going to services the synagogue, or I'm going to a youth group event, or we're having people over for Seder or for Passover. And kids know that they're Jewish in between, but those are moments where you do something Jewish, and I think campus the place where you get to just ... Again, you're not doing Jewish, you're just being Jewish, all the time. It's Jewish to go play sports, and it's Jewish to do arts, and it's Jewish to go swimming, and it's Jewish to be singing with your friends. And, it's not always in a way that you would say, "Oh, this is why it's Jewish.", but it's living in Jewish community like no place else. That isn't to say that there aren't parts of the experience that can't come back, and inform what's happening in kids homes, or in congregational life, whether it be the music, or it be some of the programming. Isaac Saposnik: There certainly are opportunities to give kids the bits and pieces of the magic of camp, during the year if they're not at camp, but I'll say that there really isn't, in my mind, anything that takes the place of showing up for a couple of weeks over the summer, in this environment that is totally removed from your "real" life, and where you get to be fully yourself, and where all of the worry, and challenge, and angst of the outside world can disappear for a couple of weeks. That's really hard to do in two hours on a Thursday afternoon, or in a weekend long retreat. Having the time to really go, and have the fully immersive experience, is like nothing else. Rachael Burgess: Thank you very, very much for joining us. Isaac Saposnik: My pleasure. Rachael Burgess: And, as you are prepping for camp, good luck, and I hope that 500 camper plus [enrollment] continues to keep going up as well. And, send your kids to camp everybody. Isaac Saposnik: And come visit us over the summer. Always happy to see you. Thanks. Bryan S.: Thank you. Rachael Burgess: Thank you. Bryan S.: It was a great conversation. Isaac Saposnik: My pleasure. Bryan S.: That was a fun episode. If you want to know more about Havaya summer programs, either in the West Coast, the East Coast, check out havayasummerprograms.org. They've got some really fun videos and photos to check out. Again, we love those five star reviews on iTunes. We love these subscriptions on all platforms, and we look forward to seeing you next time, where we'll be continuing our conversations about the newest trends in Jewish life.