Bryan Schwartzman: Hi, folks. Just a quick note that the show you're going to hear today is a little different from our normal episodes. It was recorded live on Zoom as part of The Big Bold Jewish Climate Festival in late January. We go a little longer. We have a Q&A from our audience. But otherwise, it's the same Evolve: Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations you know and love. Enjoy the conversation. From my home studio, welcome to Evolve: Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations. (singing) Bryan Schwartzman: I'm your host, Bryan Schwartzman, and it is fantastic to be taking part in The Big Bold Jewish Climate Festival, and to be with folks from all around the world, maybe. Feel free to post in the chat or comments wherever you live. I see somebody already did that. If this is your first or only session at the festival, thanks so much for choosing this one. I know it's a pretty serious topic. What's more serious than death and burial? But that doesn't mean we can't enjoy ourselves a little bit while we're learning together. Before we really get going, I want to introduce the team, the band that's with me. I've got Sam Wachs, the show's editor who makes sure everything looks and sounds great. Bryan Schwartzman: Also, with me today is Rachel Forth, who's quarterbacking this live event, and of course there's Rabbi Jacob Staub, PhD, who is our podcast executive producer. He directs the Evolve Project, and he's also an extraordinary intellectual who's nurtured several generations of rabbis. How this is going to work today is there's going to be a normal podcast interview, which should take about 45 minutes. After which, I will be handing things over to Rabbi Staub, and he will be emceeing a Q&A session where we'll be taking questions from you, our audience. To keep things simple, we've turned off everyone's microphone except for our guest, but the chat is absolutely open. Throughout the show, you can post your questions in the chat and for comments on Facebook Live. Bryan Schwartzman: Our team's going to be monitoring those places and we'll be collecting questions for the Q&A. Okay, so now, the reason why we're here, our two guests who thought really deeply about an important topic. First, I'm going to introduce Rabbi Seth Goldstein, who has been serving Temple Beth Hatfiloh in Olympia, Washington, since graduating from the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College in 2003. He's an immediate past president of the Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association, an author of the Evolve essay, Human Composting: A Reconstructionist Rabbi's View. There's a whole bunch more I could say about him but I'll stop there and just say, Rabbi Goldstein, welcome to the show. It's so good to see you again and have you here. Seth Goldstein: Thank you. It's great to be here. Honored to be here with everybody and looking forward to the conversation. Feel free to call me Seth throughout our talk. Bryan Schwartzman: All right, I'll try to remember to do that. Next up is Rabbi Adina Lewittes, who is the founding rabbi of Sha'ar, a Northern New Jersey, New York City-based, values-driven community oriented around the call to societal, environmental and spiritual sustainability. She recently served as the scholar in residence at Congregation B'nai Jeshurun in New York City, and is also a member of the Rabbinical Faculty of the Shalom Hartman Institute. Rabbi Lewittes, thank you so much for joining us today. It's great to have you here as well. Adina Lewittes: Thanks, Byran. Great to be here and feel free to call me Dini. Bryan Schwartzman: Okay, thanks so much. All right, let's dive right in. I assume folks have, but say people here today have never been to a Jewish funeral. What are the basics of what they need to know that's involved in Jewish death and burial, and what are the values driving that? I know it's a big topic, but I think it's important to start with some grounding. Dini, would you mind taking the first crack at that one? Adina Lewittes: Sure. To keep it brief, essentially from the moment of death, the priority is to always have somebody watching over the body of the deceased and accompanying the body through all the various stages in preparation for and ultimately through burial. You may have heard the term, shomrim, those who observe or guard the bodies. In fact, the classical term for a funeral is levaya, which means to actually accompany. A body is given the gift of a ritual called Tahara, which is the ritual washing of the body. It's then dressed in very simple white shrouds. In communities that use a coffin, which is essentially everywhere outside of Israel, the coffin is specifically intended to be a simple plain pine box, both for its simplicity, its dignity and the equality that we see permeating all of our burial traditions, but also because it is a material that degrades quickly, and that is part of the returning of the body to the earth. Adina Lewittes: Generally, Jewish people are buried in Jewish cemeteries. Taking together all of these things promote the values of, as I said, simplicity, dignity, equality, and above all k'vod hamet, the honor that we want to bring to the deceased. Now, these are thought of as universally accepted requirements of the halakhic or Jewish legal tradition. That is certainly the case with regards to k'vod hamet. But how you achieve that, those assumptions are far more nuanced when it comes to the ritual requirements and for a ritual in the way they're discussed in our sources, as I think we're about to see. Bryan Schwartzman: Wow, sounds like there's a lot to discuss and delve into there. Before we go further, Seth, anything to add on the basics of Jewish death and burial? Seth Goldstein: I think that's a great summary. I think the values that are placed there, that there is a ... I guess, to add that there are a number of values that go into death ritual, and I think that Dini touched on, I think that inform the ongoing conversation that we're about to have and that are ongoing and how we might understand those values. I think that it is ... I mean, it is interesting to enter into this conversation because I think that's the default, people understand burial to be the Jewish practice around death and to think broadly about that is interesting. Of course, elements of ritual and liturgy that come into it as well that are part of the practice and how to apply those and work those in, and what are the functions of those rituals -- bring into those conversation. Bryan Schwartzman: All right. I guess before we go further, I think you both raised the idea which I think would be surprising for some, that burial is not required. It just can ... Dini, would you mind expanding on that a little? I mean, I think a lot of us assume that burial is required in Jewish law. Adina Lewittes: Sure. Almost every ancient culture emphasized burial and the need for proper burial rites. In some cultures like ancient Mesopotamia, the next world was thought to be underground. When you buried a body in the earth, it was also a way to facilitate that body getting to their next destination. We also have some hints of that in the Torah, right? The reference to Sheol, a neutral underground place where the dead are assumed to go. But the question is, is burial really required by Jewish law? On the one hand, we have verses which make it clear from dust you came, to dust you shall return, but that doesn't necessarily clarify how you're supposed to get back into that form. Adina Lewittes: One of the verses that is often called into the conversation actually is a verse about when there is someone who is guilty of a capital offense and they're put to death and they are impaled on a stake. There's a commandment not to let that body remain out and exposed that way, and to instead bury that body quickly, k'vor tik'verenu which is a sort of double verb. There are some people, some commentators who understood that the doubling of that verb is there to make clear the biblically mandated requirement for burial. But it could just as easily according to other commentators suggest that the emphasis is there to make sure that we don't leave a body out exposed in a way that is undignified. In fact, you would be surprised to see that in the Talmud, in Masekhet (Tractate) Sanhedrin, there is a fascinating conversation where rabbis are asking for not the proof even that burial is required by the Torah, but the remez, the hint. Adina Lewittes: There's already an acknowledgement that there isn't a specific commandment to bury. After a lengthy conversation, the conclusion by some is since it's doubtful as to whether it's a biblical commandment, we should just be really safe and make sure everybody gets buried. There are others though who say that at most it might be a rabbinic decree, and so we rule leniently in case somebody wants other wishes. In fact, part of the conversation actually in the Talmud, refers to burial as just a matter of folkways or customs. And archeology reveals no distinct Israelite burial practices during most of the biblical period. We can't actually- Bryan Schwartzman: Wow. Adina Lewittes: We can't conclude anything about specific religious beliefs around burial from what we know. The bottom line is, Bryan, that the legal tradition says relatively little about burial. Its main concern is about avoiding defilement and about avoiding any kind of desecration to the dead. So how's that for a beginning? Bryan Schwartzman: Wow . That's pretty wild. I guess to fast forward about 2,000 years from biblical or Talmudic times to 2021, not skipping over anything there, this is ... We are talking today as part of the Big Bold Jewish Climate Festival. My sense is [that] the Jewish practices are pretty green already, but what are the climate environmental challenges posed by Jewish burial, which is really the reason why we're talking today? Seth, do you want to take the first go at that one? Seth Goldstein: Sure. I mean, there is a notion that there are aspects that Jewish burial is a form of green burial, in a way, some of the simplicity aspects that Dini mentioned earlier in terms of preparation of the body, in terms of not very ostentatious or simple shrouds, a simple coffin, a burial in the earth. There are times, I mean, I know that even where we don't ... while it very rarely happens. I know that where I am, in Washington, you don't even need a coffin to be buried. In fact, I've officiated over folks who didn't want to be in a coffin but just with a shroud. That already is a step in that direction. But there are still things that we run up against in terms of thinking about what is considered to be green burial and Jewish burial. Seth Goldstein: I think we live in a world in which there are other ... While we have our Jewish customs, there are also laws and state laws and things like that, that we have to deal with in terms of certain things like liners and regulations that are sometimes more of a challenge. I know that that's something that we've been engaging with here. I think one of the things that ... The challenge is that when it comes to a green burial versus the traditional Jewish burial that was described, is that there's still the sense of taking up space, right? There's still the notion of space, that where we have cemeteries, even Jewish cemeteries, there's still a ... It's a designated use of land. There's concerns around that as well. Seth Goldstein: To bring in the larger scope, as we've seen over, fast forwarding to 2021 when we have different means of post-death with cremation namely, now that that people are ... that has entered into the conversation as well, as far as alternatives to burial, and that it's something that Jewish communities are talking about and Jews have been opting into, I think with the notion that maybe that's a greener alternative when potentially it's not, right? While it removes some of the space and some of the other, taking up considerations, the energy that goes into cremation is a factor that needs to be considered. Seth Goldstein: I mean, overall we're seeing this notion of how we take these traditional notions of what constitutes Jewish death ritual and taking in the sensibilities of environmental justice, environmental awareness that we're thinking of it, how do we meet? How do we bring those values together? And thinking that, well, tradition, as Dini mentioned, there's ... It's not maybe as black and white as we might assume, and then also how do we engage with that intersection of values in terms of that? Between those two, there are even shortcomings and that's why the conversation I think is expanding around that. Bryan Schwartzman: I mean as somebody who grew up in Queens, I'm well aware that huge chunks of the borough were covered in cemeteries because starting from the mid-19th century on, there was no more room in Manhattan. Dini, is space the issue here? I mean, I know it's a big issue in Israel. Is space the main thing you think about when the environmentalism and burial, or are there other issues that play as well? Adina Lewittes: It's interesting. Seth said before that when you look at the classical Jewish customs around burial, it seems like we were really green right from the get-go. When it comes to space issues, I want to add another interesting bit of information from what we know about ancient customs, which is that oftentimes families would bury their loved ones in caves or catacombs which were then sealed for a certain period of time during which the bodies would decompose. Then they would return to those burial chambers and they would retrieve the bones and take the bones and bury them in a family ossuary, something that took up much less space and a practice that also allowed those decomposition graves to be reused for other dead bodies. Adina Lewittes: There was an inherent awareness of using the land and with efficiency of being able to, in a sense, recycle the land that was needed for burial. When we see versus in the tradition of being gathered unto my ancestors, in a way, that's what it might be reflecting, that the bones of ancestors were able to be buried in smaller spaces, thereby not stressing the land in the way that we are accustomed to seeing it stress now. In fact, in Israel now, where there is, as you mentioned, a serious issue about land, they are currently building cemeteries with chambers like that to be able to re-institute that practice. Major rabbinic authorities have acknowledged that there is no halakhic, no Jewish legal impediment to that. Adina Lewittes: That is one way that even traditional Jewish burial is able to be mindful of land use. I'll just add also that the requirements around how much space exists between graves is also sometimes misunderstood to be a matter of law, when in fact it's a matter of custom and it was really those spaces were measured based on the durability of the earth, so that graves wouldn't collapse onto themselves. But in fact, according to the tradition, you can space graves much more closely together than we realize. In terms of bringing the dead back into our cities, Bryan, you mentioned how Queens was taken over, right? Whereas we used to keep our dead close to us, and cities became overwhelmed with needs for burial land. Adina Lewittes: That's when we ended up putting our dead way outside the city. I actually sit on a committee at Columbia University where I met an architect who was actually redesigning urban cemeteries using this process that I just described to you about chambers that can be reused after a body is placed in there to decompose, and even capturing the energy that is released from the decomposition in order to be able to power city lights, for example. All of this enabling us to bring our loved ones closer to us and be much more mindful of land and energy efficiency. Seth Goldstein: It's interesting to think about ... Oh, sorry. That reminds me, I mean, how it goes in one tradition but then we look at the stories and like in Bereishit, in Genesis, that talk all about the caves and Joseph wanting his bones brought up. It's a referral to the ossuaries and that we moved away from that into something else, to hear those stories and [be] reminded that no, it was not necessarily like that. Bryan Schwartzman: Natural organic reduction, human composting. It taken me a little while to get here. You might even say I buried the lead a bit. But I mentioned it to anybody that I said I was doing this and they shuddered, like, "Whoa! Whoa!" It just brought a chill up their spine. Even though natural is in the title, it didn't sound natural to them. It's no longer theory. This is practice according to the Seattle Times, as of December, this company Recompose is actually doing it. Can you take us through, what is human composting? What are we talking about? What does it look like? I mean, Seth, since you're in Washington State where this is now a legal practice, do you want to start by answering that? Seth Goldstein: Sure. Sure. It's funny, it's so new I was mentioning human composting to someone and they thought I was talking about humanure, like composting human waste to use, which is another practice. But human composting is a colloquial term to describe what it's all about. But natural organic reduction is a more technical term, but it is natural. I mean, I think when we think about it, bodies decompose, right? We know that, and I think that we are getting to the simplicity of what we understand to be a traditional burial. There's a sense of connecting to the earth and then the body returns to the dust, as the texts say, and that bodies will decompose and that there's an understanding. Natural organic reduction I think sees that we are of the earth, right? Seth Goldstein: Adam, the first human and Adamah, the earth, and that is a very intentional way of making that connection, even though it's not necessarily coming out of Jewish community, that there's that sort of connection. Essentially what it is -- and it's not ... I've learned more about it since ... I came into this not necessarily as a striver for this, but as a rabbi now serving in Washington State, where it's now legal as you mentioned. It's a question, it becomes a question and the choices that people are going to make. I've been very interested to learn about it. As you mentioned, it's not just legal, but it's now happening as one facility has come on and another is coming on very soon. Seth Goldstein: Essentially, when you die, if you'd wanted to enter into natural organic reduction, your body is placed in a vessel that ... It'd be eight feet long and four foot tall, something like that, and placed naked. I mean I know we talked about traditional burial, probably shrouds, but you would be naked and your body would also ... with your body, would be put organic material, like wood chips, alfalfa, straw, and that over a course of 30 days, your body will reduce, will decompose with that organic material into another organic material, compost. In some ways, it's like what you would do with compost in your garden, right? You have a mix of materials, browns and greens if you're a composter, different types of materials to get to a certain chemical mix and a certain heat, which allows for the decomposition and then your body is reduced. Seth Goldstein: It takes about 30 days for the process to complete. After the 30 days, the compost then has to cure for another couple of weeks in a facility. Following that, then you have compost that you could use. Essentially, how it works now is that you can either ... a family could claim the compost for themselves, or the compost could be used on public lands or conservation lands. You would use it as if you would any type of growing material, organic material, and it produces quite a bit. I mean, that's something to learn, that something I learned a bit later on. I think we're used to. If we think about alternatives to burial, when we think about cremation, and we think about a little urns with ashes, natural organic reduction actually produces quite a bit of compost that produces about a yard of compost, which is a lot. Seth Goldstein: If you're not versed in that term, you can imagine a three foot by three foot by three foot box, which is again a lot. Or another way to think about it is if you're thinking about a 10 foot by 10 foot garden plot, about three inches deep, which is a standard for composting a garden. That's where -- It comes out of people who are interested in exploring alternatives to death, ritual and alternative to burial, especially trying to capture an environmental awareness. I mean, it was done very consciously. It's actually comes out of practices that farmers would use with livestock who had died. They would end up composting their livestock. Studies were done mostly out of Washington State University about what it would look like for humans, and there were papers written and studies and that's where we are, eventually through the legislation, to that. That's the basic process of natural organic reduction. Bryan Schwartzman: My sense is this is happening in a warehouse structure and families at the end have the option of either accepting, keeping the soil or donating it. Does that sound right? Seth Goldstein: Right. Right. Yeah. There are facilities that are open around the Seattle area, and one currently open, another opening soon. Yeah, that's basically it. Bryan Schwartzman: Thanks. Thanks so much. I think that explains a lot. Dini, I guess, just no pressure on this, what's the ruling? I mean, you gave a sense that there's actually been a wide range of Jewish practice over the millennia. Is this completely outside anything we would recognize as consistent with Jewish values? What do you think when you look into consider human composting? Adina Lewittes: It's actually fascinating, Bryan. First of all, I also just want to clarify- Bryan Schwartzman: Please. Adina Lewittes: ... in sharing the background that I did, it's not that there's such a wide variety practice over the millennia within Jewish communities. But what there is is a much greater amount of fluidity or flexibility in the understanding of the tradition around whether burial as we do it is actually a Jewish legal requirement, or whether it fell into universal practice from custom, which opens the foundation for re-examining it, if we are compelled or inspired to examine it as we're doing right here. When it comes to human composting in Jewish tradition, we have many sources that emphasize the quick reintegration of the body with the earth and practices that developed in order to support that. Adina Lewittes: For example, Rabbi Judah ha-Nasi ordered that holes be drilled into the base of his coffin so that his body is made sure to touch the soil and to begin that process of decomposition and reintegration. We read about some traditions where a board was removed from the bottom of the casket or additional holes made in it in order to do exactly the same, to quicken this process of decomposition. We know in some communities, particularly in Israel, a casket is omitted altogether. In fact, actually coffins were not thought to be used in ancient Israel. The thinking is that coffins were actually an Egyptian custom that was adopted by Jewish communities. Even the custom of placing pieces of broken pottery over the eyes and mouth inside a coffin in a traditional Jewish burial is related to this because one explanation for it is that it also is a way of enabling the body to have direct contact with earthenware material so as to begin and accelerate the process of decomposition. Adina Lewittes: Now, it's interesting. There's a case that we read about in the 13th century about somebody requesting to be buried in a different location. But the day that they died, the funeral home or their family was not able to transport them. So they were put into a temporary grave and there was material placed on their body like lime, that was thought to accelerate the decomposition so that the body wouldn't lose dignity by beginning to smell or publicly have its flesh exposed, so that the waiting period for them to be able to transport the remains actually was shortened. For our discussion, the rabbi ruling over that case ruled that it's permissible to place the substances on the body so that it accelerates the decomposition, provided that it's done in order to minimize the degradation of the corpse. Adina Lewittes: Other rabbinic authorities who read about this case comment that in reality anything that we can do to honor the dead or to benefit them is not ever to be considered bizayon, or any kind of degradation. In theory, using products that can enhance or accelerate the natural process of decomposition and reintegration has some foundation in the tradition. As an aside, people talk about the sweet loamy smell of the human composting environment by placing all these organic materials over the body. Just as an interesting reference to possible Jewish burial practices back in the first century, we read in the New Testament that Jesus's disciples took his body and brought a whole lot of myrrh and aloe, and wound it in linen cloth with the spices, as is the manner of Jews to burial, according to John. Adina Lewittes: This idea of bringing those materials and making them part of the body as it's laid to rest is ... Again, we have foundations for talking about this. The question about using the composted remains in land regeneration projects, as opposed to formal burying in a cemetery, raises the question of whether designated burial grounds are required in the tradition. Yes, Jewish cemeteries are considered sacred places. We don't allow for levity or other non-burial- and mourning-related activities to take place there. But keep in mind that things like gravestones are not required by Jewish law. They're not universal. In the earliest of days, there were no markers that were necessary to be used. Adina Lewittes: Sometimes just the grave site was marked with a plain pillar to designate that there were dead bodies here, so that those who were concerned about impurity would know not to come to that area. Sometimes stones were placed on graves in order to protect those graves from animals. Again, this is a custom that developed and it developed as we know quite elaborately in terms of cemeteries, and the whole concept of a Jewish cemetery is not, as we would say, from Sinai, but it's actually a relatively recent historical development. Again, there is the foundation to talk about these things that is consistent with our understanding of how our own traditions evolved. Bryan Schwartzman: Maybe, Dini, I'll ask you but I'd like each of you to weigh in. I think you hinted at it, but my sense is that, I mean, when we think of composting, we think of gathering materials that will benefit the land, regenerate the land, help with growth. My understanding is that one of the values surrounding Jewish burial is that we don't in any way derive benefit from human remains, essentially. How do we deal with that and thinking about human composting, and if it makes sense from a Jewish perspective? Adina Lewittes: I'm thinking about where there's a conversation about deriving benefit from human remains. Certainly, in the way our burial customs have developed, there is no possibility of doing so because we place the body into the earth and we leave it to its own destiny. But I'd like to reframe your suggestion that we are deriving benefit, from the possibility of using the reintegration of human bodies into the earth as a way of healing the earth. Think of it not as a selfish acquisition of benefit, but to really understand the time and the place in which we're having this conversation, and to recognize that we are at a moment where the earth, the environment, those who are deceased, as well as the people who are affected most directly by the choices that we make, this is a moment where we need really courageous halakhic thinking and halakhic imagination to understand how to best fulfill an equally obligatory requirement of our tradition, which is to be the most loving and responsible stewards of the earth. Adina Lewittes: Far from framing it as human benefit, I want to argue too that our tradition, not unlike most religions, places humanity at the center of the story and places humanity at the center of history. What our generation is being reminded of, and quite threateningly reminded of, is that we are not the main characters in this story, and that we must live, and yes, we must die in a way that honors and sustains the many different elements and manifestations of life in our created world. Our faith system has to reflect that understanding, and our rituals and our practices have to catch up too. Adina Lewittes: We've done that, we've had these conversations around kashrut, around Shabbat and the uses of electricity, we've had these conversations around prayer and many other aspects of our tradition. I think in this realm, in terms of burial, we should continue to proudly embrace our tradition's evolutionary dynamism and always progressing towards the most enlightened and ethical expressions of gratitude for life, of humility in the face of life's fragility and of its sacredness in all of its forms. Bryan Schwartzman: Seth, I know you've -- your essay on the Evolve site is very much from a values-based perspective and you balance values. How do you look at this from a values perspective? Seth Goldstein: I think that's ... Yeah, and that was a piece I wrote as a think piece in terms of trying to come to terms with what I might think about it. Having thought about it ... I mean, I love what Dini just talked about in terms of the moving the humans out of the center. I think that's definitely something that we need to grapple with. One of my favorite texts from the Talmud is the Hillel-Shammai argument about over whether humans should have been created in the first place and they decided that no, humans shouldn't have been created in the first place. But we're here, so we have to really do what we can. I think that it allows us to think about what is our role in terms of the larger whole. Seth Goldstein: I know that the notion of deriving benefit was something in terms of some of my research and reading -- and there hasn't been that much about this from a Jewish perspective that came up -- but in terms of reframing what that even means, what do these values mean? I mean, I think that ... and how they've gotten played out or how they've been embodied, right? We can think about it in broad strokes. I think there's a lot that goes into -- I mean, I think in general, we're going back to this notion of Jewish law and halakha and burial practices. It's just been interesting to me in terms of working as a rabbi, learning over how much of this is built up in custom as opposed to law, and even from little practices to larger assumptions, are really customs. Seth Goldstein: To think about how those customs have developed to meet certain needs, right? Maybe not just affinity to tradition, but psychological needs, sociological needs and how practices are bolstered by them, but to think then that those needs could be met in different ways or those needs are changing as well. Then thinking about that, I think that we do have an environmental consciousness that we didn't have 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, and that we are being forced to confront things differently, and to think about what is that ... just the sociological makeup of the Jewish community in terms of what people expect and what people's needs are that ... Seth Goldstein: You mentioned that the Jewish communities of ... or the cemeteries of Queens, which I know as well, and just I've always been fascinated visiting those because they look like they reflect how people lived at that one point, right? It's graves on top of graves, and whenever I go there, I just imagine tenements of the Lower East Side, and people died as people lived. I think that that's still true but in different ways, and people are much more mobile. People see themselves much more part of a larger whole. People are rooted not just to each other, but to the earth, and having to be able to express those values. Seth Goldstein: We talk about bal tashchit [avoiding waste/environmental degradation] when it comes to a deep Jewish value that comes into environmental values. How could we apply that, as Dini said, to all aspects of Jewish life? I mean, death, as you opened up this conversation, there can be a lot that goes with that , in terms of what people bring to the conversation. But there's no reason why that aspect of Jewish practice should not be part of that conversation as well, sort of challenged norms of what we might have traditionally given or how we understood certain practices to expand into all aspects of Jewish life. Bryan Schwartzman: Wow, thanks so much for that. Adina Lewittes: Brian, I know we need to wrap. Is there time to just raise one other issue that- Bryan Schwartzman: Absolutely. Adina Lewittes: ... I just want to flag? I mean, one thing that we didn't talk about is actually the question of whether cremation is actually prohibited according to Jewish law. There's a little bit of myth-busting to do there too, although we can get into it maybe another time, or if anybody wants to talk about it, you can reach me directly. I do echo what Seth said in terms of it actually not having the sort of ecological benefits that people assume them to have. But even when it comes to cremation, human composting, what I think these conversations raise is yet another question that is very, very unique to this Jewish moment. Adina Lewittes: Living as we do at a time of the sort of dismantling of the hierarchies of religious authority, living at a time where people are taking much more ownership of their Jewish lives and their spiritual lives and making decisions motivated by a desire for personal authenticity, coherence in terms of their values, the role of the rabbi has changed so much as well, so that we have to ask ourselves, is our mandate really to be the gatekeepers deciding what is okay, what is not okay, really creating rigid limitations and boundaries around "this is what Jewish practice looks like and nothing else"? Or really is our role today to educate, to nurture, to guide and to lead people to the deepest understanding of their many varying ideals and convictions as Jews and as human beings? Adina Lewittes: Now, I think I hope I've made it clear that I am actually very committed to the greening of our tradition and to living much more mindfully and respectfully with the created world around us. But at the end of the day, I think this also raises that fundamental question of the nature of the relationship that we as religious leaders have to the growing consciousness of our communities, and the ways in which we want to nurture that growing consciousness Jewishly. I think that's a really important question. As I like to say all the time, my mission as a rabbi, my success will not be evaluated based on how many people I've convinced to lead *my* Jewish life. Adina Lewittes: But I really believe that my success as a rabbi, my mission will be evaluated by how many people I've been able to lead to them living the most authentic expression of *their* Jewish lives and values and ethics. I think the playing field is sufficiently diverse, that our roles can be beyond those of saying this is Jewish and this isn't Jewish, but more nurturing in the way that we've been talking today. Seth Goldstein: Yeah, I want to affirm that. I mean, I think it's a powerful point that applies to this and larger things. It's how I ... As I said, I came into this ... I was really invited into this conversation by members of my congregation. Because it's a point of where ... It's a reality, right? Where I am. The question is not is this okay? Rabbi, is this okay? But it's like rabbi, how do I make this Jewish? I want to do this for these series of reasons that I have a hard time arguing with, and because there are not [inaudible ] all these values that we've spoken about. The question is ,I'm committed to this for these values, how can I incorporate Jewish tradition into that? How can I make this? How can I apply those assumptions we've heard about Jewish burial ritual and liturgy? Why not? Let's do this new way of engaging and to really enrich it. Seth Goldstein: That's where the spiritual growth comes from. It's leading and being led as rabbis, and then giving the opportunity to lead in new ways. Yeah, I mean my go-to rabbi phrase is I just want to say yes all the time, right? I want to be ... Because I want people to live deep and enriched Jewish lives. The fact that people are asking about how do I make NOR [natural organic reduction] Jewish? Right? That's a powerful question. I think that says a lot about where people are, not just in the fact of their agency when it comes to their own spiritual path, but also the fact that there's an embrace of Judaism there, and that it falls upon us to meet people where they are in engaging with that question. Bryan Schwartzman: Wow. That's I think as good a place to any to transition. You wouldn't be surprised to know I prepared a list of questions that goes on much longer. But as I'm looking at our chat, there's been some fabulous and really interesting questions that have been popping up throughout. I think I need to tap into some of these minds for every episode. I do, because there's some great questions. We want to open this up and hear from our audience. Just give me one second, because before we get to our Q&A, one quick public service announcement. I just want to ask, were you informed? Did this make you think about this issue in a way you hadn't before? Do you want others to experience this kind of dialogue? Bryan Schwartzman: I'm just going to ask, consider making a gift to support this podcast and evolve through our website, evolve.reconstructingjudaism.org. For your convenience, if folks want to go ahead and open up their wallets right now, be my guest, we'll put up a link on the chat and you can find a donation link on our website. That heartfelt ask being said, it is now my pleasure and honor to hand the proceedings over to my friend, and executive producer, Rabbi Jacob Staub, who's going to moderate the Q&A and really give life to some of these questions. I'm sure there won't be time for all of them. So Rabbi Staub, hello, good afternoon. The mic is yours. Jacob Staub: Thank you, Brian. Thank you, Dini and Seth, for a really interesting and important conversation. The subtitle of the Evolve Project is Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations. This is a conversation that hasn't happened a lot in the Jewish world, and I'm glad to be part of it. It's part of our mission. I will begin with a couple of questions from Dina Newman, and they're related. One is, how do you think practice influences the grieving process? For example, what are we going to do before Rosh Hashanah in Elul, in terms of visiting the graves of our loved ones? How does this alter the rhythm and how can you imagine it working? Now, if we decide that this is a good thing to do, it is likely to affect our relationship to grief and memory. Adina Lewittes: Yeah, I think. Wonderful question, an important question. We have to consider the implications of these new possibilities from so many different angles, not the least of which is from the perspective of those who are left behind. I appreciate that very much, and it should be obvious that certainly none of the answers I have or comments I have are fully formed yet, because this is so new and we need time to really live with them and let them evolve. But I would say this just as a beginning, the question of what becomes of the composted remains is really interesting because there is no clear mandate what to do. Adina Lewittes: It is possible that some, if not all, of those remains can be used for some kind of project, whether it's a grove of trees or some kind of beautiful enhancement on family property, that can be visited, that can be a focus of attention and proximity and presence. Something else -- people think of using cremation remains in this way, and place them, for example, in gardens and think that trees will go grow. One of the problems of cremation is that the remains actually contain elements that are very detrimental to the soil. If you think you're going to have a beautiful tree grow from cremated remains, I think you're going to be very disappointed. Adina Lewittes: Whereas these remains may actually be more nurturing of something that can be a focused object of remembrance and a visitation. In terms of the choreography and the sequencing of our rituals, I could imagine shivah taking place during the period of the composting and some kind of other new ritual that's created when the remains are ready to be placed in whatever form the family chooses. I want to add just one more element of mourning and grief, and then turn it over to you, Seth, if you have more. But one of the deep pieces of wisdom from our tradition that we haven't mentioned yet is a statement from the Talmud, which says mitzvah lekayem divrei hamet. That it is a mitzvah, it is a sacred obligation to fulfill the wishes of the deceased. Though it might not be a choice that someone in particular might make, if their loved one for the reasons that we've been describing, makes this choice, It may be upon us to honor it and to figure out how to honor it in a way that both brings ongoing dignity to the met [deceased] and the nikhum avelim, the comfort to the mourners, that is part of our tradition as well. So I think that's important to remember. Seth Goldstein: Yeah, I think that's wonderful. I think that, to those questions, it's ... I mean, Judaism throughout our history has been creative and met the moment. I think that it's an opportunity to think about creativity around ritual and liturgy as we have over the years. I think that there are elements that line up and are connected. I think that different ways of taking the traditional rituals of liturgies around levaya, funeral, or shivah, and they might meet different. I mean, in some ways, we have with folks who have chosen to be cremated, there's already adaptation that goes on there. But this could also provide new opportunities to honor those values of environmental justice and connecting it to the earth. Seth Goldstein: I mean, I think the question about place is a really interesting one, and I think that it ... I mean, I think that when I think personally, that's just in my rabbinic role, about what I want for myself, and that sort of thing, I mean I'm drawn to that notion of place and of cemetery and stone, and it's because I think that there's something meaningful there. But I also think our notions of place have changed. I think as Didi mentioned, there are new ways to think about that, whether it be groves or trees or plants. We think about the custom of planting trees when a child is born. It could be somewhat similar in that as well, in which case there is place as well. Seth Goldstein: I think about my family in which people are scattered all over, it's hard to visit family graves around the High Holidays because people are so mobile and choose to be in different places and move throughout the course of their lives. It's not this place, the sense that we all born, live and die in the same place. Our notions of that, I think can change. But I think there's a lot of creativity and a lot of richness in the tradition as well to bring to bear to how we might label these things. The Jewish terms or liturgies for various moments, both keeping in line with traditional Jewish liturgies, but also maybe applying new ones for the specific approach. Jacob Staub: Thank you. A couple of informational questions -- I want just quick answers. Debra Brown asked why not in a shroud? Would that impede decomposition? Can we imagine a shroud that is decomposable? Any thoughts on that? Seth Goldstein: That's an interesting question. I think that, because it ... I think for that, in general, in that process, anything that would impede ... it would see something that would impede or slow down the process. Whether that's a conversation for later on, I mean that's an interesting question. I don't know enough about that and that would be having to work in consultation with folks who are actually setting up NOR, but I know that there is a ... Anything that is artificial is ultimately removed through people who have pacemakers or things like that. Seth Goldstein: But yeah. As far as I know, where it stands now, there's no shrouds and whatnot. I mean, whether ... Again, it's getting back to that. I know thinking about tahara and shrouding as part of that, whether there's opportunity to perform tahara and a shrouding, and then the deshrouding is a part of another aspect of ritual are done in private. I think that there could be means to work it in. But as far as it goes now, there's no bodies placed in them. Jacob Staub: Another point of information was about bones. Do they decompose in this process? Seth Goldstein: Everything decomposes in this process. I mean, what's interesting too, when they come out, according to the studies that have been done, the material that is produced is not biologically or micro-biologically connected to human material. It's pure compost. It's a completely different material that comes out of the process. Yes, everything that is organic in a body will decompose. Adina Lewittes: If I could just jump in for a second. I don't want us to think about this conversation in a zero sum way. It's not either we opt for natural organic composting, or we do a Jewish ritual, right? It's new, so we don't have all of the specifics, but it will end up being a synergistically enriched option. Takhrikhim, the shrouds, we know from the tradition that sometimes there were different kinds of shrouds used for different burials, and it's entirely conceivable that someone will create a bio-degradable shroud so that we can maintain some of the beautiful compassionate traditions of k'vod hamet, the honor due to the disease, even if we choose some of these alternative processes as well. Jacob Staub: Thank you. Judith, and several others, has concerns about health and safety. I assume these concerns are being addressed by the state, by the people who are doing this. But do either of you know anything about concerns about infection, particular disease transmission? Adina Lewittes: Sorry, go ahead. Seth Goldstein: Oh, go on, Didi. Adina Lewittes: I was just going to say, in my limited knowledge of this, there are clear restrictions. If people have died as a result of certain illnesses and their bodies contain certain chemicals from different medical therapies, there are people who are not candidates for this, precisely for those reasons. Jacob Staub: Okay. Seth Goldstein: But anything else, common stuff, is broken down, and again what result is microbiologically different than what came in. That's through some of the studies that have been done. Jacob Staub: There's a question from Michael Greenberg to you, Seth, about your drash Do you know what he's talking about? Seth Goldstein: Because I mentioned I think in my- Jacob Staub: [inaudible ] Seth Goldstein: In the little piece I wrote, I referred to that second paragraph of the Amidah, that talks about God as melekh meimit umekayem umatzmiakh yeshua [ruler who creates death and life and causes salvation to bloom], that the sort ... I mean, if you'll permit me, Jacob, as a Reconstructionist to use "mekhayei mameitim" [resurrecting the Dead] Jacob Staub: No, I won't. (laughter) Seth Goldstein: Okay, then I can't answer the question. (laughter). But if you're talking about the ... But I think, and this raises another reading of it, right? Think that about, well, what is mekhayei hameitim What is giving life to the dead? What is resurrection of the dead? I think the traditional liturgy gives us this beautiful little hint when it says, matzmiakh yeshua, to sprout forth redemption, right? It's the same root that has to do with plants and planting growth. Seth Goldstein: Let's say, while perhaps in the liturgy, it was meant metaphorically. Or maybe not, we don't know from the different ways. But here's this beautiful hint, the sort of thinking, well, how do we understand mekhayei hameitim, the resurrection of the dead or life after death? Well, this is in a way thinking about, as Didi mentioned, to start opening our consciousness to beyond humans into our role within the larger biosphere, right? This is a way of giving life after death by using a ... When, as I often say at funerals, individual lives and life itself continues, that this is a way of very consciously living into that ethos of giving life after death, and not just for ourselves, but for everybody. Adina Lewittes: Seth, not to get into a [inaudible] on here, but mekhayei hameitim also ,maybe this is a moment that calls for some creative parshanut and some creative textual analysis where it's not the dead that are revived, right? But it's the metim that are mekhayei, it's the dead that are actually bringing life. Jacob Staub: Whoa! Seth Goldstein: Yeah, beautiful. Jacob Staub: Interesting. Yeah. Seth Goldstein: It's giving away ... Maybe I'll [inaudible ] keep going back. But yeah [inaudible] that notion of k'vod hamet that we're talking about, right? These are the metim. We are giving them life by honoring their desires as well. But a lot of richness. Jacob Staub: Yeah. Yes. Just one last, we have only a couple of minutes. Last question for only a couple of minutes. I imagine there's a lot of resistance, and how do you ... You have quick answers on what you do with someone who's a really upset that their loved one is going to decompose? Have you run into this? Seth Goldstein: I think in some way, having this conversation is one of the first step, right? It is very new. Right now it's only reality in one state. In fact, to begin to have this conversation now, as it will probably spread, I think is important because I think that's the meta conversation. I think in the smaller conversation, it's always a healthy practice to be able to talk to your loved ones about what your desires are before death, to be able to explain and to share and to why. So it doesn't get to be a situation that somebody dies and everyone's arguing over why they wanted this or whatnot, and being able to have that conversation with family. Seth Goldstein: Yeah, it is new. I mean, it is new and there is a factor to it that I think in some ways with anything new that comes up, but also a lot of issues around death and dying that adds to the difficulty of the conversation. But I think for the ability for families to have those conversations as people make these choices, as often as needed and prior to death, I think is important. For us as a Jewish community to have these conversations, to be able to think broadly and creatively and normalize what might be a new challenge will be important as a Jewish community to do. Adina Lewittes: Jacob, I think the question actually has two parts to it. One is the technical part, and there's no question that this is something that puts much more dramatically in our faces. What happens no matter what path we choose? Right? The decomposition of our bodies and the reintegration of our bodies into the earth. That is an unavoidable part of death when there is a burial, even in the most traditional of ways. In some ways, that's a very jarring thing. In some ways, as Seth described, it's actually an opportunity for very important and healing conversation about the realities of life and mortality. Adina Lewittes: It's given us, as we've already said today, the opportunity to talk about our relationship to the planet and our place within it, and our responsibilities to continue to give to it even beyond our lifetimes. But the second part of the question raises something that can be applied to just about any conversation, which is when my loved ones choose to do something, that's not what I wish they had chosen to do. That's a larger pastoral question and a family question. I have great confidence in my colleagues across the Jewish world to help families come to terms with some of these difficult moments in whatever issue they may make themselves manifest. Again, I share what the tradition says, mitzvah lekayem divrei hamet -- it's, we have an obligation to honor people's wishes. Jacob Staub: Thank you. Thank you both very, very, very much. Thanks to the audience, the participants here. Great, great questions. I wish we had more time, but we don't. I'm going to turn this back over to Bryan, our hosts, to wrap it up. Bryan Schwartzman: Thanks, Jacob, for really handling that so skillfully, and thank you everybody out there for really bringing so much to the conversation and especially to Seth and Dini. That was really an insightful generative discussion. I'm really happy to be part of it. Thank you. Folks out there, can't wait to hear this show again, liked it that much, in a few weeks, we'll be releasing today's conversation as an episode on our feed. Be sure to subscribe and check it out and keep listening. I saw a lot of positive comments in the chat, but I'll ask, what'd you think of today's episode? Bryan Schwartzman: I want to hear from you because Evolve is about meaningful conversations. That includes you. Send me your questions, your comments, your feedback, whatever you got. You can reach me at bschwartzman, that's my real email address, bschwartzman@reconstructingjudaism.org. Now it comes to the part where I have to follow the script or else I'll get in trouble from my team. Evolve: Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations is executive produced by Rabbi Jacob Staub and edited by Sam Wachs. Our theme song, Ilu Finu, is by Rabbi Miriam Margles. This show is a production of Reconstructing Judaism. I'm your host, Brian Schwartzman, and I will see you next time. Lehitraot, Shabbat shalom, Thank you so much. Adina Lewittes: Shabbat shalom. Thank you. Seth Goldstein: Shabbat shalom. Thanks so much. Bryan Schwartzman: Thank you. (singing)