[music] Joshua Gippin: What does it mean to be chosen? It means to be a holy people treasured by God. What does it mean to be holy? What makes me holy? If I was born Jewish, I haven't done anything. I was born, that's it. [music] Rachael Burgess: Welcome to Trending Jewish. I am Rachael Burgess and with me I have my fabulous colleague and co-host Bryan Schwartzman. Bryan Schwartzman: Hi Rachael. RB: Hi Bryan. We have a very hot topic actually today, that's very... I think this is pretty trendy from... As we've still been talking about years later after the Pew study came out, talking about the increase in interfaith marriage and the decrease in people affiliating with congregations and everybody is wondering what is happening to the Jewish people. BS: So you're getting all serious. I was just excited that we get to play movie critics today, but... RB: See? I am really excited about that too. [chuckle] BS: But absolutely, we're in... RB: I'm sorry to be such a Debbie Downer. [laughter] BS: Why don't we just introduce our guest and dive into it 'cause there're so much, so much to talk about. About 30 different topics we could potentially get into. So I'm just going to launch into it. Today with us is Joshua Gippin, a documentary filmmaker whose credits include the recently released "The Chosen People", a film about Jewish identity, "God As We Understand Him", a film about faith and the 12-step movement, and "The Bubba Briefs: A Biography of My Grandmother". He holds an MA in Latin and Caribbean studies from the State University of New York in Albany, and he lives in Akron, Ohio, and is a member of the Reconstructionist Congregation Kol HaLev in Cleveland, and his films can be found at joshuatreevideo.com. So as the title of his most recent film suggests, we're going to be talking about chosenness and what that means. Are Jews the chosen people? Is this something we should even be thinking about? How does that impact people in our families who aren't Jewish? So let's go. Welcome Joshua. Thanks for appearing with us by phone in the studios of the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College. JG: Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. RB: And this is... And you've actually been here before. Came all the way out here from Ohio to interview quite a few Reconstructionist leaders actually for your documentary. JG: Yes. That was amazing. I could not believe some of the interviews... Just some of the stuff that came out in those interviews, they were so different from one another and just brilliant. I mean, it's amazing. I sometimes wonder what I would've gotten if I had interviewed different professors, 'cause I know they were even... I interviewed three professors and Deborah Waxman of course the president, but I sometimes wonder what would've come up if I'd interviewed some different professors. It would have been cool to just interview like everybody. BS: There was Jacob... Rabbi Jacob Staub, Rabbi Nancy Fuchs Kreimer, you mentioned Deborah Waxman, and there was another? JG: And Deborah Waxman. BS: Right, right, right. JG: No that was... I guess it would three including Rabbi Waxman, yeah. RB: I think what was also neat about your film as well is how many different voices that you were able to get, but we'll get to that in a second. One of the things that I had noticed, I wasn't sure if this was a stylistic thing that you did when you were exploring this idea of chosenness, you... One of the things that I had noticed actually in your film is that your title changes, your... The description... When your face pops up and you're narrating, your description changes. At first you're the filmmaker, and then you are a cultural anthropologist, so this was a three-year project that you were working on. Did you see your identity change throughout this project? Or was that a progressive change? Or do you feel pretty much the same afterwards? What was that like? JG: I am definitely changed, definitely transformed. The title change had to with wearing different hats, so I can put on my filmmaker hat, but at certain parts during this film I was getting into topics that were part of my expertise as a cultural anthropologist, because I studied cultural anthropology at the University of Michigan and even my graduate work at SUNY Albany was cultural anthropology based in Latin America. So when I was getting into topics like ethnocentrism, that was based on my expertise. So I just changed the title for that reason, I was kind of wearing that hat. But definitely, that worldview... And I feel like I share that... In a sense I think that's why I was drawn to the Reconstructionist movement and Reconstructionist worldview. I mean, the idea of the chosen people always bothered me, and really didn't just bother me, I mean it was like a deal-breaker for me. JG: And when I found out that I wasn't alone, that there was a whole fourth movement in Judaism... Honestly, I didn't know about the Reconstructionist movement at all when I started this project. But I learned that... You know, Mordecai Kaplan also studied the social sciences and studied sociology and if I'm not getting my information wrong, I think that during his studies at Columbia, one of his professors was William Sumner who coined the term "ethnocentrism." I think that that whole concept was really an important part of Kaplan's rejection of the chosen people idea. I just found that interesting because I felt innately that it was wrong, and I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but I think that's a big piece of it. BS: One of the parts of the film that really stick out for me is your conversation with Rabbi Art Green who actually is the former president of the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College. He looks at you and just said, "You have a chip on your shoulder." This is... This is something that really gets at you and you're right to say that the Reconstructionist movement has officially rejected this concept and changed some of the central prayers. But this is a topic that most Jews, I'm going to go out on a limb, don't think about everyday, even Reconstructionists. And yet it was almost like you felt the need to shake the tree and said, "People, think about this. This is serious." So what was it about it that really made this such a central topic deal-breaker for you? RB: Oh sorry, I was watching him talk and I was looking at Bryan and going, "Wait a minute, this isn't something that we don't talk about. I think this is actually probably a huge topic that I think we think about." 'Cause I remember watching your film and even thinking about the idea of chosenness, being a child from an interfaith marriage where my mother was Jewish and my father was Christian, that... This is a very big deal, especially during a time where we're worried about what is the next generation of Judaism looking like. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. BS: Wait, wait, no room for different perspectives in Judaism, right? [laughter] JG: It surprises me that it's not a bigger deal. I feel like within the Reconstructionist movement everybody is comfortable and I have to tell you, I feel right at home. I mean, when I found the Reconstructionist movement I was like, "Well, this is where I belong because I can be Jewish and not feel upset about having this big burden of being one of the chosen people." For me, what bothered me, I was born Jewish and I think Bryan, I heard from another podcast, all four of your grandparents were Jewish, same with me. BS: That is true. JG: Yeah, all four of my grandparents were Jewish too and so I'm ethnically Jewish, whatever that means. And I think that's a big part of it for me. If it wasn't that I was born that way it may not be such a big deal but I just felt it was so wrong to make such a grandiose claim based on the luck of the draw, like just born into it. It's sort of like being born into royalty. But on a broader level I think when you say, "What does it mean to be chosen?" Let me see, I'm going to quote. I'm going to do a Bible quote here, I don't do it very often but here's a quote from Deuteronomy 14:2, it says, "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a treasured people for Him out of all the nations upon the earth." So, what does it mean to be chosen? It means to be a holy people treasured by God. This is a really, really good thing. JG: What does it mean to be holy? What makes me holy if I was born Jewish? I haven't done anything, I was born, that's it. So what makes me holy? To me, that needs to be something that's earned, and what does it mean to be righteous? These are things that have to do with our behavior. A Jewish people more righteous than non-Jewish people? I think the answer to that is pretty clear, and there's a wonderful quote from Art Green, he says, "There are righteous people everywhere and there are bastards everywhere. In every religion and every ethnic group there're good and bad people and lots of people in between." And to me, that just cuts to the core of it. JG: Why is it wrong to me? Because I think it's objectively false, and I feel like especially now in the 21st century when we're so polarized between religious people and scientific people and there's all of this confusion between what's literally true, and what is myth, and what fake news is even. Is climate change even real? Did Sandy Hook even really happen? There are people that doubt whether the Earth is even a sphere, they're still claiming that it's flat. And so I think we really, really, really need to be clear about what's true and what's not true. And when we make a claim like this, that we are holy, that the Jewish people are a holy people, well what are we saying about the rest of the world? If we're holy, does that mean that they're unholy? I think that's very hurtful, very damaging and I don't know how to get around that. I don't think Kaplan did either, a lot of things were reinterpreted and this is one of those things that no matter how many... I talk to a lot of different people, Reform, and Orthodox, and Conservative Jews, and Christians and all kinds of non-Jews and atheists and it's really, really clear what it means, and people try to dance around it and say, "Well, it doesn't really mean that, it just means... " But if you're saying that you are the chosen people of God, a holy people treasured by God, it's really... There is not much room for interpretation. BS: I really... I definitely... JG: So I don't know, that in a nutshell. Yeah. BS: I really appreciate that you really brought to the fore something that I personally just never really, really took seriously, but what I have struggled with personally in all the years I've been trying to understand what it means to be Jewish, is the universalist and the particular trends within Judaism. I feel like, to the extent I've been able to investigate, it seems like a tie to me and there's no clear answer as to whether we're... Our first concern of all humanity or whether we should, as Jews, be concerned about Jews first, and if that's the case, what does that mean for everybody else? Is this a question you've struggled with? Is it related to your question? Or is it something that you're clear on? Like, "Of course, we care about everybody equally." JG: I think it's one of those things that's both. I think that we are implicitly taking care of one another as Jews and ensuring our own survival when we look outward at the rest of the world and when we care about the rest of the world because they're going to care about us and love us. I look at it historically, and I just want to mention, in this interview I'm really sharing my personal beliefs, it was really hard for me but I really try to get past my own biases and leave room for a lot of other voices in the film. So if you watch the film, you're going to hear a much more balanced [chuckle] talk on shows than this, and much more just factual and with varied opinions. But I feel like today this is kind of behind the scenes and I can share my beliefs. But what I've found and what I believe historically is that when we say we're chosen, we are separating ourselves, what it means to be chosen, it means to separate ourselves. In the same way we separate Shabbat from the rest of the week as being a holy day, we separate ourselves from the rest of society as being a holy people. And when we separate ourselves, that has really serious implications, and I think that it's had serious implications throughout history. JG: Then again, we have to say, well if we don't separate ourselves, what does that mean? Does that mean we're assimilating? Are we assimilating into the mainstream culture? Obviously we don't want to assimilate to the point where we're Christians [chuckle] or Muslims, we want to continue to be Jewish of course. But I think we need to be Jewish, or at least I do, I need to be Jewish in a way that is together with the rest of humanity. And I can't sit here and say that I'm more holy than my Christian or my Muslim or my atheist [chuckle] brothers and sisters. Because they... I've lived with Jews and non-Jews my whole life and I've known wonderful, wonderful people who are Jewish and who are non-Jewish, who am I to say... How can any of us say that we know what God wants of us, each day we have to make hard decisions about what's right and so... We all just do the best we can, that's the bottomline, we're just people, people are people. RB: One of the things that struck me especially that you talk about actually in the beginning of your film was when you were embarking on this project, there were a bunch of different voices that were attacking you and calling you antisemitic and they were calling you a kindergartener and even Rabbi Green says, "You have a chip on your shoulder." And I couldn't help even myself feeling very emotional watching your documentary as well. And I'm curious from your perspective and from this journey that you've been on. And the fact that you interview and... Like you said, you interviewed a lot of different voices, you interviewed people from an entire spectrum of Judaism, it wasn't just the Reconstructionist movement, you reached out to a wide variety of different voices, and you weren't even just talking to the Jewish community, you were also talking to the Christian and Muslim communities as well and atheist and so on. What is it about this particular topic, gets people so riled up and so emotional and you have experienced being the target of some of that emotion? JG: Yeah. I do, I do have a chip on my shoulder I guess. I think I've come to appreciate that Jewish people who feel that they're chosen channel that into really, really positive behaviors and the whole idea of being a light unto the nations or a blessing unto the nations can be channeled into philanthropy and social action. So I think the transformation for me was in becoming more accepting of other Jews that continue to feel this way, that we're chosen by God and that we're servants of God and all of that, I appreciate that. But I do feel in a sense that I'm on a crusade [chuckle] sort of and it's like, I sort of... Okay so related to climate change or anything, any other social issue or environmental issue. I mean if I feel very strongly that the science on this is right and that the climate is changing based on human action and the pollution that we're creating and all that then if I'm going to do something about it I'm going to be an activist and I'm going to stand up and do something about it. Especially in the face of people that are like, "Yeah, what are you talking about? There's nothing going on, everything's fine just settle down." JG: It seems like you've got a chip on your shoulder. [chuckle] And anytime you get upset about something and feel strongly about something and in this particular case it's kind of even a little bit ironic because I... What I tend to get upset about is religious fundamentalism, those who believe so strongly that they're the chosen people. Whether they're Christians, whether they're Muslims or Jewish or any other. I see that as kind of the big problem with this is that it can lead to extreme actions, terrorist actions. If you believe so strongly that you're doing something in the name of God and you just know for sure because your belief is so strong, that's very dangerous. JG: So what about me, I feel very strongly about this. Now mine is coming more from the social scientific perspective but I feel very strongly, from a social scientific perspective, that this is wrong [chuckle] and that this has been the source of a lot of misery for the Jewish people for a very long time and I'm trying so hard to be the good journalist and let all the sides have a voice but deep down I really would love to see this change. I think about the Reconstructionist movement as pioneers. I think about the first bat mitzvah, Kaplan's daughter having the first public bat mitzvah and then the Reform movement instituted the bat mitzvah, that's wonderful. And the same thing with patrilineal descent. The Reconstructionists were pioneers. But what about the chosen people, I mean, this is something that was a settled issue from the very beginning with Kaplan. Going back to the 20s and 30s but it never caught on, it never caught on with the Reform movement, it never caught on with the Conservative movement. Now I understand that Orthodox Jews will never change because that's kind of their role within the fabric of Jewish society but I would love to see the Reform movement and the Conservative movement at least open their eyes to this a little more. RB: I also wonder if, some of the things that I was saying, and your documentary is very... I mean as a documentary should but was... One of the things is that it was very... It goes through a very long history, or it goes through the history of the Jewish people and it's very visual. And one of the things that I was thinking about was all of the trauma that has happened to the Jewish people. This is something -- of all of the traits that the Jewish people have shared, unfortunately one of them is a shared trauma and I think that there is... That part of this narrative of chosenness is also we, like a survival of trauma. So do you think that that's... That even post-"Judaism as a civilization", do you think that these traumatic events make us something chosen? Or is it fair to take away this idea that we're special because we survived a lot of different genocides and Holocaust and wars and these very traumatic events and we're still here? So does taking away chosenness take away one of the things that's been kind of getting us through all of these different traumatic events throughout our history? JG: It's so important what you say, it's so true that I think among the interpretations of what it means to be the chosen people that's like there are two big ones. The first being that if we are chosen and we follow God's commandments that we will be protected and that we will be favored and we will be able to be plentiful and reproduce and our crop will grow and all this. And then the other big one is that being chosen by God is a burden and that it means hardship, it means yes we will undergo great hardships but in the world to come we will be redeemed and whether that means in heaven or in future generations in the messianic era and that is a very, very, very prominent interpretation of what it means to be chosen. BS: I guess I'm wondering on a more... On a less metaphysical, on a more personal level if, I know you've said like so many Jews of our generation you've chosen a non-Jew as your life partner. What impact has that had on your thinking, on your approach to these issues on the whole topic of Judaism and ethnicity? JG: On ethnicity it's interesting. Part of what we were taught in anthropology, in cultural anthropology, was that race is a cultural construct, it's not a physical... You can't trace different races, and certainly not Jews, we're so varied and we've been intermarrying for many, many millennia and you know... But it still exists as the way people understand the Jewish people. My wife always thought of me as being Jewish. And I guess in my case I... My four grandparents were all Jewish, and I happen to look more ethnically Jewish I guess. RB: Very Eastern European. [chuckle] BS: It's the beard, right? JG: Yeah. RB: It's the beard. JG: I guess so, yeah. [chuckle] RB: Watch, he shaves it after this. [laughter] JG: Yeah. I guess she, in some ways, made me feel more Jewish than I did prior because I was a curiosity to the whole family. [chuckle] I would call them kind of... What do you call it? Judeaphiles. They love Jewish people. I don't know if you've ever met people like that. RB: I actually was a child from an interfaith marriage, where my mother is Jewish and my father isn't, so genetically or in a lot of this peoplehood conversation, I count as part of the tribe. But my father was the same way, he felt that when we celebrated Passover he participated in all of those different holidays 'cause he said, "Oh, well Jesus was Jewish, and you're Jewish, and Jesus gave us Gentiles a way to be closer to God in a way that Jews were able to, and He gave us an ability to have that closeness to God, and what you're doing is basically what Jesus did." And so he would get really excited about coming to these different, participating in the holidays and things like that. So I definitely, I get that. JG: Yeah, yeah. But it's funny though, it would make me a little uncomfortable too because they would heap some of these stereotypes on me [chuckle] even though they were positive stereotypes. So they'd be like, "Oh, you know you can do the books because you're good with money." [chuckle] RB: Right, or you be a great lawyer or a doctor. JG: 'Cause I was Jewish I was automatically funny. [chuckle] JG: You know what I mean? Like Woody Allen. They would say, "Oh you remind me of Woody Allen." I don't know, it always made me a bit more aware of my Jewish identity because they would point out things and they would look at me as being different. And I look different, I am different, that's fine, I am. RB: Different because you're Jewish or just different because you're different? JG: Different because I'm Jewish. My whole heritage is Jewish and I happen to take after my Bubba. I think Bryan mentioned I did a whole film on my Bubba. And so that's a certain brand of Jewish. If you look at my Bubba, she was part of the civil rights movement, the anti-war movement, the labor movement, her father was a communist, and so very much left wing and very... And atheist. I come from a lot of atheists and agnostics in my family, but it's totally Jewish. [chuckle] It's just a certain... There are different kinds of Jewish, right? But I don't know. I've become a lot more comfortable in my own skin, and I think that's been a very nice silver lining of working on this film, is that I'm totally comfortable in my Jewish skin, whereas it made me so uncomfortable before. And I'm also actively practicing Judaism, and I love my family at Kol HaLev and I'm also a part of the broader Jewish community. That's all been wonderful, a wonderful part of exploring these issues and exploring the positive side of... For me the positive side of all of this is the covenant. And if you watch the film, I don't want to have a spoiler here, but [chuckle] it culminates in a discussion about covenant, and that's really what's wonderful about all this, and what I embrace is that covenant and that commitment to try to leave the world better than I found it. Yeah, I don't know, I probably got off track there, but... [chuckle] RB: So we're actually beginning to run out of time and I don't know if Bryan you want to ask the last question? I have a question as well, but... BS: Have at it, go ahead. RB: Okay. So one of the things that I actually... Thank you Bryan. So one of the things that I actually came across not too long ago, I was having a conversation with somebody actually out in Chicago and we were talking about interfaith and kind of going into chosenness and things like that, and I'm kind of curious from your perspective, now that this idea of chosenness if we take that out of the picture, and then you yourself are in an interfaith marriage and you have children of your own who are absolutely adorable, spoiler alert, you'll see them in the film, so what is the fate of the Jewish people if you take chosenness... JG: Oh the fate. RB: Yeah, what's that... JG: Oh my goodness. RB: What is it now that you take that out of the picture, the chosenness factor? JG: Yeah. I think that would be a wonderful, wonderful development in Judaism. I'm not scared of that at all, that doesn't scare me at all. I'm very involved in the interfaith community here in Akron, I'm part of the Akron Interfaith Council, and I've screened the film to many non-Jews. And I found that they absolutely love it. They see it as a mirror on their own space, their own interpretations of chosenness, you know? We're doing a screening at the United Church of Christ where they want to listen to me talking about chosenness and Judaism, and then they want to follow up with a discussion of chosenness and Christianity and the problems that that has caused. And really, a broader discussion about religious exclusivity. And so I see this... And he said something that offended me; the guy that's helping to host the screening. He was joking with me and he said, "Well, we blame the Jews for so many things, but this is something we really can't blame the Jews for." Because the Jews started this whole idea of the chosen people. And then the Christians picked it up and then the Muslims picked it up. But you know, I was offended but then I was like, "Well, we were the first religion." That was the parent religion kind of. Or at least a sister religion. And then this song came in my head... You know the song, "We didn't start the fire... " RB: Yes. JG: "It was always burning since the world's been turning." RB: Oh, Billy Joel. JG: Yeah. "We didn't light it but we're trying to fight it." And then I thought, this is a fire that we did light. And isn't it appropriate that we be the ones to put out the fire? Isn't it all just ego anyway? It's just saying... It's just saying... Whether it's ethnocentrism or ego-centrism, to me it would be... To finish the conversation I had with Art Green when he told me I had a chip on my shoulders, my response was... 'Cause this doesn't come out in the film. It's got thrown out 'cause I got really upset when he said that. [chuckle] But my response was, "Look at the shift from polytheism to monotheism. That really defines the birth of Judaism. That was a major major shift, and I'm sure a lot of people were scared to make that leap to an entirely different theology. But we can't be scared, we can't be afraid. We just have to do what's right. RB: Well thank you so much for your amazing work, and also for being with us today. So definitely recommend everybody check out your film, "The Chosen People" which I think you have available on your website and also on Vimeo as well? JG: Yeah. The website is chosenpeoplefilm.com. RB: Great. Then thank you so much, and... BS: It's definitely a compelling view. We recommend folks check it out. RB: Right. And we definitely would like to hear your thoughts on the topic as well, though we hope we keep it civil. But would love to know what all of you think about this idea of chosenness. Is this something that you think about? Is this something that you've talked about in your family? Please let us know. We are on Facebook, so you can see us at facebook.com/trendingjewish. For more resources and also a link to Josh's website, and as well as his biography, you can visit our website at trendingjewish.fireside.fm. BS: And people can email us, right? RB: Yes. You can also email us at info@rrc.edu. BS: Please do. We'd love to hear. This has been fun. RB: Great. [music]