[music] Emily Cohen: I was trying to think about, how do I tell these stories? How do I get people to share about their families and just break this ignorance that says that all Jews, if they're good Jews, come from families that are made up only of Jewish members? And then I was like, "Oh, I'm listening to a podcast right now. Oh, this podcast tells stories. Oh, maybe this is the best way to get this word out there." [music] Rachael Burgess: Welcome to Trending Jewish. I am Rachael Burgess, and here with my co-host, Bryan Schwartzman. Bryan Schwartzman: Shalom, Rachel. RB: Shalom, Bryan. [chuckle] RB: I guess that still doesn't sound... Maybe by the end of the season we'll probably get that disdain correct. We've bonded so much over the past several years working together. BS: We don't need the Newman thing today 'cause we've got our own built-in Seinfeld theme right into the episode... RB: Exactly, but maybe Bryan, you should explain where we're going today. BS: We're going today... Well, we have got a podcast episode about a podcast which reminded me anyway of the Seinfeld episode in which Kramer publishes a coffee table book about coffee tables that also becomes a coffee table. RB: That was... I completely forgot until you had showed me that clip, that the coffee table book becomes a coffee table. But I don't think there's actually any coffee in the room, so we don't have to worry about our guest spewing coffee all over us and ruining our clothes like Kramer does in the sketch. BS: Right. We can't play that in a clip. It's just the physical comedy, you have to see it. So look it up on YouTube, folks. RB: And we're also putting it up on our webpage at Trendingjewish.fireside.fm, so... [overlapping conversation] BS: That's not going to get us sued, is it? Let's consult legal on that. RB: Yes, yes. [chuckle] BS: I am thrilled to introduce Emily Cohen who is a student here at the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, and the creator, producer, host of "Jew Too: Tales of the Mixed Multitude", which is a podcast about sharing positive influences of dear ones from other faiths on Jewish family, love and life, and you guys should check it out. What's the best way for folks to check it out, Rachael? RB: I should be asking Emily that. There's a few ways. EC: Yeah, so we now have a website which is very exciting. So it's JewTooPodcast.com, and you can find all of our social media through that. BS: I totally froze and threw you on the air before we finished our introduction, but thanks for going with that. Emily's also the co-creator of the Hamilton Haggadah, which was a runaway, viral, smash parody, but not parody of the hit Broadway musical, and a star at RRC; I know, a Star Wars fanatic, and we'll find out lots more about Emily. So welcome and thanks for joining us. EC: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited. RB: So I'm actually very curious about why talking about interfaith relationships, interfaith families, why was that so important to you to make this into a project, into a podcast that you actually applied and got some grant funding for in order to help you do this. Why was this cause so important to you? EC: So I grew up in Richmond, Virginia and in that community, there were so many families that were comprised of Jewish parents and parents who were not Jewish and children being raised Jewish. And maybe it's just because of where I grew up, but it never felt like there was much of a distinction between the families that were made up entirely of Jews and the families that were not. And so it was only as a high schooler and college student that I came to discover the degree to which interfaith families were treated a little bit differently in a lot of Jewish spaces from families that were not interfaith. And last year I was studying in Israel, I was in Jerusalem in the fall, Tel Aviv in the spring, and I think because of this pretty huge divide there between secular and religious, I found myself thinking a lot in binaries and feeling like I was not on either end of the binary, feeling like I was in this space in the middle in the sense of my Jewish identity and in the sense of the way that I practice, and also in being, as so many Jews are, a part of a family that has people in it who are not Jewish. And it felt like the only way to start to break that cycle of people just saying there are this or this, was to tell stories of people that were both or neither or somewhere in the middle. And so I remember actually the exact moment when I figured out this needs to be a podcast. EC: I was walking to the central bus station from where I lived in Jaffa, I was walking to the middle of Tel Aviv, like a 45-minute walk, and I was trying to think about, how do I tell these stories? How do I get people to share about their families and just break this ignorance that says that all Jews, if they're "good Jews", I'm making air quotes that you can't see, [chuckle] come from families that are made up only of Jewish members? And I was walking through this plaza in Tel Aviv and I was like "Oh, I'm listening to a podcast right now. Oh, this podcast tells stories. Oh, maybe this is the best way to get this word out there." 'Cause I think there's something about the power of the human voice that goes so far beyond seeing something on a page, and in some ways even seeing something filmed. I think there's something about hearing somebody's story when you're not seeing them, when there's nothing visual to distract you from the story that they're telling, that's just really deeply compelling, so that's why I'm doing this. BS: It's amazing how this form has just caught fire and really in so many different ways and mediums really inspired people, moved them, it's like... I'm not a historian, but it's like the second great age of radio or something. And if anybody's checked out "Homecoming", but that was a 12-part drama on the air with famous actors including David Schwimmer and Oscar Isaac and just... I mean, I don't know, even 10 years ago, who would've thought of doing a drama on podcast? BS: But anyway, to get off my diatribe, I'm really curious, what were some of your influences in creating your podcast? You really take an interesting approach in which you have a fully produced integrated episode that tells a very tight story, and then you're releasing what you call "Rough Cuts" which are something akin to what we're doing here, which is more just like listening in on a conversation, so sort of wondering what podcast influences you drew from in creating this. EC: Sure. So, I owe a ton to "On Being with Krista Tippett." I've been listening to her show for so many years, I mean back when it was "Speaking of Faith,", and I went to college in Minnesota and have been really involved in interfaith work for a lot of my young adult life also, and so her podcast, her radio show really, but now it's also a podcast, has always been of interest to me. And she has, in addition to the produced episodes that she creates which are something akin... They're not exactly like mine because hers are much more like a conversation, but it's an edited conversation. EC: She also releases what she calls "Unheard Cuts" in which she records and releases the entire conversation that she has with her guests of the week, and you get to hear all of the random check-ins like, "Oh, how are your kids? What did you have for breakfast this morning? Let's do a sound check." You get to hear everything. And so, sometimes when there's a guest that I'm really excited about, like when Martin Sheen was on her show, I went back and listened to the entire hour-and-a-half conversation and there's just this richness that you can't get. EC: So, I would say that that's certainly where the Rough Cuts inspiration comes from for me. And for the produced episodes, I owe a little bit to "This American Life", I would say. I mean it's different, but I have that same vibe of being like I'm narrating and weaving multiple narratives together, which is something that they do on that podcast. RB: And even besides doing the multiple narratives, one of the things that really drew me in as well was your music, which is also a piece of you as well that's going into this. It's you on the guitar, and who is playing the flute? I want to know. [laughter] EC: So, I'm playing the penny whistle. So I really love music, and I was very, very fortunate to get a small grant for this podcast from the Auerbach Foundation, and I have been using that to do some promotions and have a little bit of an incentive for people to fill out feedback surveys after listening, but... And they also provided me with funds to purchase a mic and things that I needed, but I didn't have money to pay royalties or to commission somebody to write me any sort of theme music. EC: So, I play guitar not immaculately well, but I play it well enough that I was just like, "What can I do to just have a little bit of something underneath?" And then I figured for the theme music, "Well, I used to play with an Irish folk band, I have a penny whistle, may as well bring that out and see what I can do with it." So, that's where that came from. BS: By the way, if we haven't said on the air, we have Rabbi Leiah Moser to thank, our first guest, for composing our theme song which I love and... RB: Yes. BS: ...listen to just for fun. RB: Absolutely. I do that as well, so I'm glad that I wasn't the only one. [laughter] BS: So, you really get people to share personal stories in almost a journalistic vein. It sounds like something you may have wrestled with, but I'm wondering, is there a point that you're trying to drive home, or are you just sharing stories, or is it a little bit of both? EC: It's a little bit of both, I mean I will say that there's a few moments that stick out as far as why I actually decided that this podcast needed to happen. One of them was, several years ago, I was at a conference for interfaith or... Sorry, it wasn't interfaith, it was a conference for rabbinical students from different seminaries. And at this conference, there was a student from a different seminary who said during dinner, we were having a conversation about interfaith families and this person said that they couldn't imagine somebody growing up in a house with a Christmas tree, growing up to think that they were Jewish, even if they were raised Jewish, even if they were told they were Jewish, had a Bar/Bat Mitzvah, all of that. And this comment really, really stuck with me because I know so many Jews who grew up with Christmas trees, so many. And so, I guess the point that I'm trying to drive home is just not only is it possible, it's happening. And the Jews who grew up with Christmas trees are not any less Jewish because of that object in their house, the Jews who have a parent who practices a different faith and who is opting to raise their children Jewish, they are not any less Jewish than the children who grew up with two Jewish parents. EC: And so the point I 'm trying to drive home is just, we exist, we're here, we are the Jewish future. 72% of non-Orthodox Jews are now marrying people who are not Jewish. That is a huge, huge number -- about half of millennials are raised by one Jewish parent rather than two. And so it's just showing that we are the wave of the Jewish future and that's not something to be afraid of, that's something to celebrate and to learn more about. And if I can break even one person's ignorance about that, I've done my job. RB: It's interesting, that experience that you had in your conference. When I was in college, I had a rabbi who was just casually talking to us and talked a little bit about interfaith, and he had said that children of interfaith marriages end up becoming very emotionally unstable, and become sociopathic, and end up in jail. And at that moment when he was saying these things, he actually didn't know that I was a child of an interfaith marriage; my mother is Jewish, my father is a Protestant Christian, and it was very insulting to hear. Here I am supposed to be emotionally unstable and becoming sociopathic and ending up in jail, and this was this assumption that this person had having not really known anybody like this. So it's interesting that those were the kind of stereotypes. I wonder if your... If part of this is with the interfaith, I feel like when we talk about interfaith, we're more talking about Christians and Jews marrying, not so much other religions that doesn't seem to be so much talked about. What were your kind of experiences with that as you've been interviewing people, as you've been diving into this topic? Is it the real controversy between... Is it really about interfaith, or is it really about intermingling with Christianity? EC: That's an interesting question, and I think certainly there are more Jews who marry Christians than marry any other non-Jewish group. I think the last stats I saw were the largest, that the greatest percentage is Jewish and Catholic, followed by Jewish and unaffiliated, followed by Jewish and Protestant. I have interviewed one person who is married to somebody who comes from a Hindu background. I have a relative, a close relative who's in a very serious relationship with somebody from a Muslim background. And so I don't think that it's only Jews and Christians who are intermarrying by any means, but I think just because of the general Christian hegemony that holds in the United States, that is what's talked about more than anything. That seems more threatening, I think, to a lot of Jewish families, this idea that we're going to be subsumed into Christian culture if it is put into our lives in any way. I think that that is a bigger threat in a lot of Jewish minds than if there were to be Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist practices in one's life, because those practices are not reflected by the outside culture in the United States in nearly as intense way. BS: I mean there's just so much to that, I think, that we... That so many Jews that aren't knowledgeable or particularly engaged in their Jewishness, feel that their identity is somehow distinct, and giving that away is something that they're really afraid of, and I'm not sure where that comes from, but I've definitely heard that before. EC: I think it... You can see a lot of historical precedent for that, like there have been hundreds of years of Christian persecution of Jewish identity, and it doesn't always happen, it's not... But it is something where if you look at the Middle Ages, the Muslim-Jewish relations were generally much better than the Christian-Jewish relations. And so there is a lot of fear, and some of that I would say is justified and some is over-the-top, but you can understand if you look at the history of Judaism, and the history of Judaism and its interactions with Christianity, why that fear holds. I just don't think that it needs to prevent all Christian-Jewish interaction from happening, and it needs to prevent Christian-Jewish families from forming. RB: One of the things that I think that is really neat about your podcast... I mean we have organizations like Interfaith Family that has a lot of different counselling and resources specifically for couples as well who are trying to raise children and both of the partners are of different religions. And one of the things that you do in your podcast is you're not just talking to couples. You're not just talking about... You're talking about a bunch of different family members. Your very first episode is actually talking about people who had grandparents of different religions. So why did you think that it was important to tell this all-encompassing story besides just the stereotypical, "These parents are... This couple is interfaith and what happens to their children"? EC: Well so I think a lot of the fear-mongering in the Jewish community comes from, "This couple is interfaith, and here's what happens to their children." And usually in those stories when they're made into anecdotes or you're just looking at straight up statistics, you see, "Oh if there's an interfaith couple, the chance of their their children being affiliated with the Jewish community goes down significantly," and all of that. So I wanted to show that there's so much more to the constellation of any Jewish person than just the person that they happened to be partnered with or their parent or anything like that. EC: I think when you spoke about your experience in college where that rabbi said such negative things about you being, or without knowing that you were a child of interfaith marriage, but said negative things about those children, even if you had been the child of two Jews, what if one of your parents was the child of a Jew and somebody who wasn't Jewish? So many of us are connected to worlds where people in them are Jewish and are not Jewish, and decided to become Jewish at some point along the way, and we're just so much more than our partners. And so, I wanted to tell the stories of people who might be the children of two Jewish parents but still have really important relationships in their lives that are not Jews. BS: What surprised you the most so far? It sounds like you went into this having thought a lot about these issues, so what anecdote or fact has surprised you the most so far? EC: That's a great question. One thing I would say is just, I am really honored by the degree to which people have opened up to me. I didn't know how much to expect that when I sat down to do my first few interviews. And some of them were with people that I knew. I mean the first person I interviewed was somebody whom I'd actually lived with for a year when we were both rabbinical student here, she was one of my roommates, and so I expected that perhaps she would be very open. But the second person I talked to was somebody whom I'd never met, still haven't met in person, but somebody who found out about the podcast over social media and offered to tell her story, and she just opened up and told me so much about her life. And I think about the role of a rabbi as a podcast editor and a podcast producer, and that perhaps because I am also learning to be a pastoral presence like that, lets people feel comfortable with sharing very deep parts of themselves. But that's what I keep coming back to -- it's just, every time I have one of these interviews, the degree to which people trust me with their stories is really incredible and not something I take for granted at all. RB: Do you think that having that background as a rabbi or as a rabbinical student... And I think some of us kind of subconsciously put rabbi to you even right before your ordination, which is coming very soon, actually. It's right around the corner. [chuckle] Do you think that that helps people open up to you? Do you think that makes people shy away from you, thinking that you're going to somehow judge them for not being Jewish enough? Or what do you think that role does for you? EC: It's interesting. I think when people first meet me and... You can't see me, but I have dark curly hair, I look very Ashkenazi, like people look at me and probably make the assumption most of the time, my last name is Cohen, that I am of a completely Jewish background and that everybody in my family is Jewish and nobody would dare to marry somebody who wasn't Jewish, etcetera, etcetera. So I think that when people don't know my passion for celebrating interfaith families, they might be likely to be worried about being judged. If they mention something about their child dating somebody who's Christian or having an aunt or whatever. But I think that when I approach people about the podcast, they know that I hold this passion, and I think, although of course, I can't know what's going on in people's heads, that that helps them to open up more because they're aware that I am a rabbinical student, I am, hopefully, very soon going to be a rabbi, and I really care about their families and I see them, I see them for who they are and I see them for what they bring to the Jewish community. BS: So I'm one of these anachronisms that has four Jewish grandparents. I feel like... EC: It's okay, you count too. BS: I count too. [laughter] You mentioned the Jewish past and you also mentioned the Jewish future, I think it's... I mean it's fair to say a big Jewish survival technique over the centuries was erecting barriers. You could tell me better than I know, there's a line from somewhere saying "Build a fence around the Torah." You can argue that same thing was meant for the Jewish community. I mean in a lot of ways, that fence has come down and we're actively trying to bring it down, but what... Have you thought about what we as a people, as a religion, as a civilization, whatever you want to call it, look like going forward in sort of a barrier-less state? EC: Yeah, I mean there's always going to be barriers to some degree, and even the rabbis that I know who are totally welcoming of interfaith families -- everybody has their own line. Hybridity is becoming a bigger and bigger segment. It's still very small, but there are a growing number of families who are choosing to try to raise children as Jewish and Christian. Not like religiously Jewish with Christian cultural celebrations, like having a Christmas tree and getting some presents on December 25th, but really trying to be members of multiple religious bodies and having children have multiple rites. And that's something I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around, which is not to say that I'll never get there, but right now that's challenging for me. EC: And I know that there are people who are trying to figure out just all kinds of things about, I mean you can look at other elements of Jewish life that have nothing to do with interfaith status or lack thereof. I mean, how do you have a ceremony for a 12 or 13-year-old child who is genderqueer? You aren't going to call it a Bar Mitzvah or a Bat Mitzvah. I think that we are constantly having to take stock of where we are in time and where we are civilizationally, and I mean that's a Reconstructionist way of life, right? EC: We look at the American civilization, we look at the Jewish civilization and we say, "How do we put this together in a way that is holy?" And so, is it bad to have four Jewish grandparents? Of course not, and I think that it's wonderful if that's the way that your family constellation worked out, but I think it's just we are growing the tents. And is it ever going to be barrier-less? I very much doubt it. If there's somebody who celebrates Christmas and Easter and goes to church every Sunday and wants to have their child have a Bar Mitzvah because they have one Jewish grandparent but have never done anything to celebrate Judaism, I doubt there are many rabbis who would say, "Great, this is a Jewish child." But I think that we have to constantly be able to look at where our tent is and figure out how to get as many people as possible who want to be in the tent, to be inside. RB: So what can we expect coming up in your podcast? I'm very anxious to find out. [chuckle] EC: So the October episode, I hope, which I guess is going to come out before this comes out, will be about Jews who are of patrilineal descent, so Jews who have mothers who are not Jewish at the time of their birth. And so two of the interviews for that podcast are people that were on previous episodes, but they had so much to say that instead of trying to cram it all into one, I was just like, "You know what? I'm going to feature you guys in more than one episode." 'Cause these people have such amazing stories and it's impossible to tell the whole thing unless I release a rough cut. So that's October. And then November, I'm hoping, is going to be interfaith relationships, so partners who, one is Jewish and one is not. RB: So that's interesting with patrilineal descent, and this had been a conversation that I had quite a bit growing up where my mother's family was a little bit more on the Conservative, almost on the Orthodox side of Conservative, where we would talk about the logic as to why you're Jewish if your mother is Jewish, that the mother is the one that raises the children. And how is patrilineal descent being accepted into the Jewish community? EC: So it depends on what part of the Jewish community you're talking about. The Reconstructionist Movement has affirmed patrilineal descent, I want to say since the '60s, and the Reform Movement came onboard in the early '80s, early mid '80s. In the Conservative world and anything to the right of that world, patrilineal descent is still not accepted. So if you have a mother who's not Jewish at the time of your birth, or even a mother who did not convert to Judaism under acceptable auspices according to the rabbis who are going to declare your child Jewish or not, the child has to go through a process of conversion. So it's a huge issue, because when you have 72% of non-Orthodox Jews -- so not just Reform and Reconstructionist, but also Conservative Jews, I mean the number is smaller for Conservative, but they're still a part of that overall percentage -- when they're marrying people who aren't Jewish, and presumably, some of those are going to be women who are not Jewish, and you have children who are being born of those unions who are not accepted as Jews in Conservative spaces unless they go through a conversion, I wonder about the message that that sends to those families. I have two cousins, they're 11 and eight, and their dad is Ashkenazi and their mom is Japanese-American, fourth generation from Hawaii. And so they are growing up Jewish, they have a Christmas tree, but they don't celebrate Christian holidays, they are not members of a church. And in their synagogue, they're completely accepted as Jews. And my cousin is having her Bat Mitzvah in a year from October, a year from this month, which is crazy, 'cause I remember when she was born. [chuckle] But she's this great Jewish kid, her brother is this great Jewish kid, and I really worry about when they're a little bit older and they're out in the Jewish world when not everybody will accept them as Jews. EC: What's that going to do to their Jewish identities? Are they going to grow up? Are they going to go to college? They look like they are half-white and half Asian-American because they are. And when they go to their Hillels on their college campuses, or if they try to join a synagogue as adults, to what degree are they going to have trouble because their mother is not Jewish? I don't know, but I really worry about that, and I really worry about in general, all of the children who are being raised in these Jewish homes and in these Jewish communities that love them for being Jewish, who then might basically be shown the door either to the mikvah or back out to the street when they show up to a community that they want to be a part of that doesn't recognize them. RB: So I know that, as we can talk about this for a long time, I know Bryan had a question for you that was a bit off of this topic, but I thought it was so fascinating when you brought this up. BS: Well, I have a captive audience, so I figured I could seek some rabbinic counselling. [chuckle] So you and I first connected when I started my job at the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College. It was the week that "The Force Awakens" came out, big exciting moment for a lot of us Star Wars fans. I asked students, "Who is interested in writing a Reconstructionist critique of the new film?" and you jumped right in there. So here's my conundrum. I'm a little bit older. My mother actually took me to see "Empire Strikes Back" in the theater, which kinda strikes me now as a little bit inappropriate; I was four. I saw... RB: But you turned out okay, Bryan. BS: I turned out okay. [laughter] My police record is good, so... And I saw "Return of the Jedi" three times the summer it came out. My first introduction to moral complexity was when Darth Vader changes sides and becomes good at the end. Way before I knew a Bible story or had ever set foot in a Hebrew school classroom, I had this pop culture mythology sort of imprinted on my brain. And I've studied at the Jewish Theological Seminary, I've spent a lot of my adult life in sort of a Jewish world, but to me the pop cultural side and references still sort of rings stronger. And I guess I'm wondering, is that... As a pop culture person studying to be a rabbi, is that okay? Can these two sides coexist or... That's sort of what I was wondering. EC: The two sides being pop culture and religion? BS: Religion... EC: Why are they different? BS: Why are they different? I don't know. Well, first off, I guess I was bothered by the idea that at its heart, the folks who are responsible for Star Wars were trying to create or created a money-making juggernaut. We could say what we want about the intentions of the redactors of the Tanakh, but we think their intentions were pure. I mean they're coming from very different places or frames of reference. EC: Yeah. So, I just started listening to "Harry Potter and the Sacred Text," and I have no idea how it took me so long to find it, because it's the best thing. And I'm a huge Harry Potter nerd as well. And so every week they go through a chapter and they read it through, not exactly a religious lens, but they read it as though approaching it religiously, and I love that. Because I think if there's something that connects you to what is greater than you, then I think if you can connect it to your faith, that's really fantastic. And I think there are really great ways to connect Star Wars and Judaism and we can talk lots more about that, but I go back to this line in Harry Potter like, "Just because it's all happening in your head Harry, it doesn't mean it's not real." And Dumbledore said that at the end of the seventh book and... I think. Seventh, yes, yes. I know my trivia, I know it. [laughter] EC: So, it's... But I think that that moment and that line, if you watch Star Wars and you see this evil figure that you've watched be evil for three episodes, suddenly turn out to have this shred of humanity left in him, there is something powerful in that. There is a religious motif in that. And I don't think that that means that you don't then turn around and read the Torah as well, but if watching Darth Vader save his child from this horrific death at the hands of Palpatine, if that helps you to feel more connected to the essential, Yetzer Ha-Tov, the good urge, the urge to do good that is in every human versus Yetzer Ha-Ra, that's a good thing, and there's a religious tie in there. You just need to know enough about your religion to find that tie. That's always what I'm struggling with is like, "How do I take these amazing religious concepts that you can find in Star Wars and Harry Potter and you can keep listing them off, and make sure that people have the Jewish knowledge that they need to connect them?" 'Cause the connections are there. RB: I'm so fascinated to see what your rabbinate is going to be like... EC: Me too. [chuckle] RB: Being able to pull together all of these pieces where on the one hand you're pulling all the pieces that make a fulfilling Jewish experience in a interfaith family, and then as well, using all of your, dare I say nerdiness, to be able... [laughter] EC: I'll claim it, yeah. RB: To be able to create the... Or to be able to create connections to a higher purpose, a higher power in reaching potential, even though... EC: Thank you. RB: I find it fascinating where you're talking about the Star Wars being the money makers, is it okay to get moral direction from... [laughter] BS: Hopefully, you're not the only one that found that line of thought interesting. Is there any future for the "Hamilton Haggadah" that was this huge thing that sounds like you just started carpooling on the way to school? RB: Another one of those pieces that you took from your, dare I say nerdiness. EC: Yeah. [chuckle] RB: I love it! I'm definitely feeling a connection here. But you're taking "Hamilton," the musica,l and you're putting it together with the Haggadah and creating this beautiful work that was actually ranked one of the top Haggadahs to seek out and used during your Seder by, I think The Forward and JTA. EC: Yeah, it was amazing that we got such ridiculous, unexpected press and it was really delightful. But "Hamilton" is another one of those really deeply, spiritual things. I remember in Israel last year, the mixtape had just dropped and I was listening to some of the songs right before Shabbat in Jerusalem, and I knew that I needed to turn off my computer and go to services, and I had this moment of being like, "I don't want to do that, I want to listen to the mixtape. This is so good." And then I was like, "No. You're Jewish, you're here, you're going to go to this amazing musical service, you're going to have a really lovely spiritual experience. You're going to do what you need to do because you are a Jew." EC: But that didn't mean that I wasn't getting some spiritual nourishment from these words and these artists, who are pouring their hearts and souls into Hamilton. So yeah, as far as the future of the Haggadah, I don't know, I feel like Jake and I, Jake Best Adler, my co-creator, we put together the entire Haggadah last year, so you can actually use it as a standalone work right now. You don't need to have anything else for your Seder. So that kinda felt like the culmination of the project, but there are a couple songs that we never really recorded, and so it's possible, see how crazy things are for us in the spring. We're both, god-willing, graduating in June, so we might not have time to really go back and do more recordings, but we might if Lin-Manuel Miranda or Daveed Diggs or anybody else ever wants to get in touch, we'll be like, "We want to record this," "We'll give them the rights, they can have those." [chuckle] BS: You totally picked up on, I mean "Raise a Glass to Freedom" seems like it could've been written for Passover. But any thoughts on why "Hamilton" has the story, and the story as interpreted by Lin-Manuel Miranda, why it's touched so many people and become the phenomenon it has? EC: I think many people have thoughts on this, and I would just echo what I've heard from other sources, which I agree with. I was a history major and I really love American history. I have roots here that trace back to the 1630s myself and it's cool to see, kind of the progression throughout time of everything that's happened in this tiny little place that we call... It's actually really not tiny. [chuckle] It's a big place. It's tiny in scale of the universe, it's not tiny in scale of the Earth. But anyway, I think with his work, he was able... I don't think he was thinking this way, but I think it's very Reconstructionist, because he took this story that we've had for a couple hundred years at this point, and he made it into something that really hits the core of what Americans are about today. It adapts to its current circumstances. So instead of being like, "Here are a bunch of white guys and they're going to talk about all of these things," and like, "If you are not a white male, you have no place in this story," it takes actors of color, and he said that you'll be totally comfortable seeing it cross-cast, where you have women playing Alexander Hamilton and some of the other leads or more people who are not men, of other genders. EC: But I think that he is able to take this really old story, this, I would say historic myth, like there are some stretches of the truth and also there's just a ton that we don't know about exactly how everything went down, but he's able to adapt it to the America of today, in the way that I would hope that in Reconstructionist Judaism, we adapt the Judaism that we've had for millennia and make it something that still speaks to the heart of the human experience. RB: Thank you so much for joining us, especially during your very busy last year at RRC, and taking a break from your podcast for a hot minute before diving right back in again. So thank you so much for being on the show and being able to educate us about all these different facets that make up a meaningful Jewish experience. EC: Thank you so much for having me. It's fun to be on the other side of the mic. I'm really... [laughter] I'm enjoying this. It's like a meta-podcast podcast, going back to Seinfeld, it's a podcast about podcast. RB: This is our podcast about podcast. EC: Yeah. BS: Well, thanks and good luck. We look forward to future episodes of your podcast, and if we stay on, if we go for a run long enough, maybe we'll be lucky enough to have you back. EC: Thank you. RB: And you can check out "Jew Too" at JewTooPodcast.com. You can also see more at our website, which is trendingJewish.fireside.fm. So I am Rachael Burgess here with... BS: Bryan Schwartzman. RB: You've been listening to Trending Jewish. [music]