Bryan Schwartzman: From my home studio, Welcome to Evolve, Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations. Alexandra Corwin: There is a huge misconception that affinity spaces for Jews of color to learn only benefits Jews of color. The value add to Jewish wisdom is so immense. Bryan Schwartzman: I'm your host, Bryan Schwartzman. Today, I'm going to be talking with Alexandra Corwin, author of the Evolve Essay, Journey to Restorative Justice in Sunday-School Classrooms. Though right off the bat, I must admit, we really don't get into this essay in any substance. Instead, we discuss the organization that Alexandra runs, Ammud, the Jews of Color Torah Academy. By the way, I mispronounce it like three times as Ee-mud, but it's AH-mud. We get into the mission and plans for this exciting endeavor, yeshiva that Alexandra's leading. We'll get into the details, but know that Ammud provides Jewish education for Jews of color, by Jews of color, and exist to empower Jews of color by providing community and personalized support to gather and learn unchallenged in their Jewishness. That's right from Ammud's website, so I didn't make that up. Now, as part of the interview, I do ask in sort of several different ways why the world needs a progressive yeshiva that serves Jews of color, and Alexandra does a really great job of answering. I guess I just want to make clear that I'm really asking, not because I haven't been paying attention to the debates going on within the Jewish community; I mean I'm asking really as a conversation starter based on my journalistic training. I was taught to really respectfully press an interview subject to justify their mission and hopefully articulate intent in a new, illuminating way. I think we really do get there. But I guess I just want to make clear, if you've been paying attention, you probably could, to the Jewish press, to the larger world, you could hazard some guesses as to why affinity spaces are needed. I think a lot of people would point to the Beyond the Count Survey, that perspectives and lived experience of Jews of color, which was put out in 2021 by the Jews of Color Initiative -- that was housed at Stanford University - and was the largest ever data set of self-identifying Jews of color to date. More than a thousand people responded. Some of the headlines were two thirds of survey respondents said they were totally disconnected from their Jewish identity or disconnected at times, and really changed how they spoke, dressed, or presented themselves to conform in predominantly white Jewish spaces, so that, to me ,tells us a lot. Another was the vast majority of respondents, 80%, said they face discrimination in Jewish settings, particularly in spiritual or congregational environments. So I certainly went into this conversation with that in mind, but also really tried to step back and start from the beginning. So let me know what you think of the results. By the way, one more number question that came up on the show, I hazard a guests and my editor told me I was pretty close. But just for the record, in 2019, researchers at the Jews of Color Field Burning Initiative estimated that Jews of color represent at least 12% to 15% of American Jews. That number definitely hasn't been universally accepted. There were some demographer debates about it, but I think it's been proved to be a widely agreed upon basis for communal discussion and certainly illustrated the point that the numbers are growing and probably far larger than planners, people in positions of power, had thought about or acknowledged, so there's the number. Okay. You all want to hear from our guest, not me, so let's get to it. Alexandra Corwin is Executive Director of Ammud, The Jews of Color Torah Academy. She is rooted in her Ashkenazi, Peruvian, and Quechua heritages. She has directed Jewish education programs, is a former teacher, community organizer, school leader, leadership director; she has a master's in education from the Harvard Graduate School of Education, and in Restorative Justice from the Harvard Divinity School. She's also taught at the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College. Alexandra Corwin, welcome to the Evolve podcast. It's so good to have you here. Alexandra Corwin: Thank you so much for having me. Bryan Schwartzman: I am glad we get to do this. I think I just first wanted to ask, what is Ammud? What is this new or not so new yeshiva that you're running? Alexandra Corwin: Ammud, Jews of Color Torah Academy, is the manifestation of so many people's hard work over many years in creating an academy that centers Jews of color, for Jews of color, by Jews of color with Jewish education. It's a place that exists to empower Jews of color by providing community and personalized support to gather and learn unchallenged in their Jewishness. It allows JOCs, Jews of color, to access the Jewish education needed to be empowered members and leaders of the broader Jewish community. We have two memberships. One is for Jews of color, where they have access to Jewish learning classes, Hebrew classes. Our classes this month, for example, focus on amidah, tzedakah, midrashim, and classes where Jews of color are teaching and able to bring their full selves to teaching classes. Then, another membership that we have is for allies. Allies are folks who are not Jews of color but support and believe in our mission. We're working on creating more programming for our amazing allies. Bryan Schwartzman: And this all happens online? Is it a mix of online and in-person somewhere? Where are we at? Alexandra Corwin: So when we started in 2019, we began in New York City and our classes were in person. But after the pandemic, we put our classes online and now we have folks from all over the world. We have members in Australia, in South America, in Spain, in Canada, who are logging in for our classes. Right now, we have classes online, but we hope to have classes in person in the future. We're working towards that. Bryan Schwartzman: By the way, before I go on, what does Ammud mean in Hebrew? Alexandra Corwin: Yeah, Ammud in Hebrew means pillar, and that's what we want to be, a pillar for the Jewish education for Jews of color. Bryan Schwartzman: This is the first couple months for you, first half a year? What's that been like? Alexandra Corwin: Yes. It's been the first six months for me in this role, from when I took over from my predecessor. And so it really has been the beginning of a dream realized. Words that come to mind are exciting, collaboration, reflecting, listening, gratitude, and really feeling held, not only by the community, but by all our supporters and students and teachers and stakeholders. My dreams for Ammud are big. The north star that I shared when I joined, that's a vision that is supported by our board and staff and a lot of students, is that I want Ammud to be a place where every single Jew of color knows about Ammud, Jews of Color Torah Academy, and they know that there's no ceiling to their Jewish education. For that to happen, I need to make sure that we have a strong foundation before we scale. That's what the past six months has been. I've tried hard to create foundations at Ammud based in values, strong values, discover the values of the Ammud team and members as we build. We've been working hard to create policies, a handbook that matches our values, with a specific focus on ensuring that our organization is hospitable to working parents. We are creating a lot of these internal structures. A lot of building and also a lot of listening, a lot of revamping, a lot of finding this right formula and the recipe for us to get to that north star that I just mentioned. Ultimately, the past six months has been really clear to me that leading with all my identities full force, front and center, is something that I can do very comfortably at Ammud, Jews of Color Torah Academy. I'm proud of my leadership and I know what it represents. Only 8% of nonprofit EDs are people of color, less than 3% are Latina. I'm sure the numbers in the Jewish nonprofit sector are smaller than this. Representation in my leadership, it's been really, really important to me to think about it in that way. To think about that, my leadership story is me leading with all of these identities front and center. I think historically it can be hard for people to do that, not quieting one identity over another. I think it's an experiment in some ways, a really exciting experiment to see what beauty will become, will be born at an organization that centers leadership of color, Jewish leadership of color, Jewish woman leadership of color. Ammud is really a perfect place to do that. In relationship to that, I would say that it's been a combination of knowing that and centering myself in that way and then also closely knowing that this is not about me in so many ways as well. I often say that my leading Ammud, it's not all about me, and I get immediate pushback saying, "Yeah, it's important to center yourself." And it is, but part of that story is that I really do see myself in how I view nonprofit leadership as being a steward of an organization, of something that is so much bigger than myself. That's something that I keep in mind every day, especially an organization with the historical importance that Ammud is. Ammud is something bigger than myself. I want Ammud to be around in a hundred years when I'm not around anymore. It's really been an honor and something that I've kept in my mind front and center the future, the long term future of Ammud. Bryan Schwartzman: Since you mentioned your leadership, can you tell us a little bit standing on one foot how your journey brought you to this point? I know we've talked a little and you have this wide background of involving Yiddish speaking and Quechua and there's a lot there. I don't know if you can tell us a bit about how your journey brought you to this leadership. Alexandra Corwin: Well, I think there are so many ways to tell my story, but one that feels exceedingly relevant in the context of being a guest on Evolve podcast, I grew up in a progressive Jewish household that held a lot of values on equality and equity and combination with Jewish values. A part of that story is my bubbe, who was born in 1918. She didn't get a chance to have a bat mitzvah, although she helped me study for mine and was a passionate advocate for women's rights in the workplace. I know that she found reconstructionist Judaism, and it really spoke to her. One of my most prized possessions is a signed copy of questions Jews ask reconstructionist answers by Mordecai Kaplan that he signed to my father. There's no doubt that the influences of reconstructing Judaism had an impact on my Jewish upbringing, in how I see the world in combining equity and Jewish values. Bryan Schwartzman: To close that, you also taught at the college, right? For a semester, at RRC, right? Alexandra Corwin: Yes, I did teach. It was such an incredible experience. I have a background in Jewish education and education in general, and I had an incredible time teaching at RRC. It was an incredible experience and I hope to again in the future. That was one of the ways that I actually learned about Ammud. One of the students in the class invited me to a class that she was teaching at Ammud. Reconstructing Judaism is a big part of how I learned about Ammud and how I ended up here. But yeah, all of that said is that I've always been very interested in anti-racism and Judaism, Jewish tech study. I've done a lot in the past several years and I've always followed my passions and my interests and that is what led me here. I've been a high school science teacher, a middle school reading teacher, Sunday school teacher, Jewish education director, community organizer. I have a master's in education, double majored in women gender studies and African black diaspora studies. Did community organizing, was a business owner, a consultant in diversity, equity and inclusion. I share all of these things and all of these roles that I've been lucky enough to have as I followed my interest. But in reality, when I really think about it, is that a big part of my story and for me to be able to even have any of those roles was that I've been seriously invested in by learning institutions. That have given me the ability to reach my potential and to be here talking to you today. I've overcome a lot of challenges to get an education, to be a learner. Bryan Schwartzman: I think it might seem obvious, especially for those who are invested in this work, but I'll ask the obvious question anyway is, why is there a need for a yeshiva specifically geared for Jews of color? I think that gets to a lot of the work you're talking about, but why do we have this need? Alexandra Corwin: Well, I want to connect back a little bit of my own story and the power of investment as well to really get at the core of that. Perhaps we can look back to that in a minute. But I will share that as the Beyond the Count survey shared, 80% of Jews of color have experienced discrimination in a Jewish setting, which is something that you can't separate from Jews of color entering Jewish educational spaces, and what that means for belonging and being able to study and learn with shoulders relaxed. At Ammud, Jews of color, because it is an affinity space, they know that they can relax their shoulders and they will not experience racial microaggressions. It's a comfortable environment for learning. It's exhausting as a Jew of color to walk into a learning environment or an education institution and feel that you have to prove your identity or have so many personal questions shared with you. I would say that's just one level to it. That's just one level of the kind of discrimination that manifests. Beyond that, there are so many different levels that can really make it difficult for Jews of color to reach their full Jewish education potential. But I think there is a huge misconception that affinity spaces for Jews of color to learn only benefits Jews of color. I really do believe that when someone is able to bring their full self to a text to the Torah, and what I mean by that is, sharing their perspectives very deeply and you have to be comfortable to do so. All of the different types of backgrounds and experiences and multicultural identities that lead to someone to have different ideas and thoughts on a text, you have to be comfortable to do so, and Ammud is a place where that happens so consistently. I believe that when someone is able to bring their full self to the text, to Torah, because at the end of the day this is about Torah and Jewish education and Jewish wisdom. When you're able to bring your full self to the text in a comfortable place, the value add to Jewish wisdom is just so immense. I've heard allies who aren't in the classes but have heard parts of the classes and the learning has been transmitted. They've shared just how moved they've been from some of the topics that they've never thought about, but they were able to learn about because someone was able to bring their full self to the text. It's a huge contribution to Jewish wisdom as well. Another part that's really important of this is that we are not a synagogue. We're not a temple, and it's important to name that. Because a lot of the folks who come into our classes share that because they have Ammud, they're able to build up a well of resilience and warmth to be able to go back to the larger Jewish community, where they know they will inevitably, unfortunately at times, experience discrimination and racism. But being able to come back to Ammud gives them the wellspring to be able to lead in the larger Jewish community. I believe that when Jews of color are empowered and have the text and Torah knowledge to lead in the larger Jewish community as well within our Jew of color affinity spaces, then that only positively contributes to the beauty and the fabric and the vibrancy of our Jewish peoplehood. That's a positive for all. Bryan Schwartzman: If you're enjoying this interview and I bet you are, please hit the subscribe button and be among the first to know when a new episode appears. If you're a new listener, welcome. Bruchim Ha'Baim. Check out our back catalog of other groundbreaking conversations and please take a moment to give us a five star rating or leave a review. Those things really help other people find out about the show. It has something to do with algorithms and things I don't understand, but it works. All right, now back to our regularly scheduled programming. I guess going back a couple minutes, I'm wondering if off the top of your head it's possible without naming a name or anything, if you've got an example of where you really saw a light bulb just flick in someone's mind or in their face when you saw somebody really experience or unpack the Torah in their full comfort and full self. I'm wondering if you just can give us a sense of what that looks like, what it sounds like. Alexandra Corwin: I'll share that story. I think there are so many members who can share fascinating stories and we have testimonials coming up on our website, but I'll share a story for myself. For my own personal narrative and experience, is that I've thought of tzedakah in the past in so many different ways. I think part of my story that's important to center is that I'm a daughter of an immigrant as well. That's part of my story. Part of my story, which mirrors a lot of immigrant stories, is that we send money to extended family back home when we can to contribute to their education and to bettering themselves. That's a common story in immigrant families and immigrant households. Now, if I were in a space, in a Jewish space where I already was feeling questioned by my identity, questioning my own Judaism, questioning a lot of things about why I should be there, which as I shared earlier, 80% of Jews of color have experienced discrimination, would I start connecting parts of my story that really are different and unique to a lot of other stories in terms of how I bring my full self to thinking about a subject? I think perhaps there are certain spaces where perhaps I would in the past have kept certain connections to tzedakah and giving to family and answering those deep questions within myself. But at Ammud, I am excited to think about how I can lead a class like this, but to really use our text on what tzedakah is and connect it back to what does it mean to give tzedakah to family members, to bettering education? What does it say in the Torah and our texts about this? How can we connect this to the immigrant experience? Really delving deep into topics that I might have not been as comfortable as going deep into in other spaces. That's part of the example of being able to bring your full self to the text and to the Torah in those ways. I'm excited to think more about this through my own experiences as a daughter of an immigrant and what our Jewish texts say about giving tzedakah to family members to better their education. It's an exciting exploration that I can go on very comfortably bringing my full self to it. Bryan Schwartzman: Bear with me because I'm trying to unpack this in real time. I think we could take it as a given that it would, in the best of all possible worlds, it would be good for Jews of all backgrounds to hear from and be enriched by different widening perspectives like you bring. Alexandra Corwin: Yes. Bryan Schwartzman: Is that a long term goal? Is there a thought that if, like you said, if Jews of color are bolstered in Jews of color specific spaces there might be more resilience for engaging with the larger community, or is it a two-pronged approach or is it really ... there's so much harm to overcome that we're not really thinking of how this benefits the full Jewish community, if I'm saying that right. Alexandra Corwin: Well, we do believe we benefit the full Jewish community by our contributions to Jewish wisdom, and also, as just existing. But I will say this brings another important point which makes our organization so historical in so many ways, is that our mission is for Jews of color by Jews of color, Jewish education. That's our goal and that's our mission and it's our primary mission and our primary goal. Its something that we really ... Those are our members and those are our constituents, and that's who our organization really works hard to support. We're figuring out the recipe for that and all the different programs that can come into. We do believe that when Jews of color have a strong Jewish education and can bring their full selves to the Torah, then the reverberations of that will not only benefit the larger Jewish community but the world. We're really looking at ways on how we can measure that because we really do believe that. I will say that we do get a lot of questions and a lot of thoughts from, not necessarily from our allies who have already signed up and understand our mission and our purpose, but from a lot ... from folks sometimes like, "I'm not a Jew of color, but I really want to hear this, I really want to come. I really want to join." I think number one, that it's uncomfortable to be a part ... to hear of something if you're so used to things being, for you in a lot of ways to have something, that it is uncomfortable that this is actually not for people who are not Jews of color, these classes. I think that's something that can be really uncomfortable and it's important to name that. Also, the fact that so many folks who are white Jews, not Jews of color, are interested in our classes, want to learn more about our classes, feel spiritually moved about the topics of our classes. What that really shows me is that we are creating Jewish wisdom that the whole Jewish community will benefit from and needs to hear. We are excited to figure out ways to bridge that knowledge and to share that in ways that are, number one, authentic for Jews of color and that keep them safe within it and within our mission. Bryan Schwartzman: I guess, amazing to say it, but I'm wondering also, does that point to an actual dearth of Jewish education options online? Or, are you more able to say, "You might not be able to take a class with us, but have you checked out this resource, this resource, and this resource?" It certainly seems like you're encountering a thirst for Jewish knowledge and learning. Alexandra Corwin: Definitely. We have great relationships with partnership organizations so that all Jews are able to study the Jewish education that they need for their neshamah, for their Jewish souls. We are still very rooted in our mission, which is expanding the opportunities for Jews of color and their Jewish education needs. That is something that we believe because Jews of color have been historically under invested in so many ways and really thinking about what is that they need, what we need, Jews of color need to really deepen our Jewish education? We've only started since 2019 and since then we have had over close to 600 Jews of color who have just heard about us from word of mouth sign up for our classes. That really speaks to the need to be in affinity spaces and the need for Jews of color led by Jews of color organizations, where we're not building a bridge and needing to explain ourselves in so many ways, but can really just dive straight into the type of learning that is important. I would like to say that I've been very inspired by learning about Suriname Jews in the 1700s, from what I've learned from Dr. Eli Rosenblatt, who can speak much more extensively on his research and these subjects. But I learned of a group of ... There was a multiracial Jewish community at that time. I've learned that the Jews of color at that time, although they didn't call themselves Jews of color, created their own learning institution called Siva, I believe it's Latino for yeshiva. They created this institution where they could study Torah. It was an affinity space in the early 1700s, where they could study Torah. A community center where they knew that they wouldn't experience racism there like they had in the larger Jewish community. Although, they would still go because they were part of the larger Jewish community. They would go to the larger Jewish community for holidays and things like that. But they had their own affinity space. Now, we don't know much about Siva except that they only lasted a few years. One of the main reasons for that was that the larger Jewish community didn't understand the value of this affinity space. They shared, "Come on, we don't want to separate. We need to be all together." My hope and my dream for Ammud, although we started almost 320 years later, is that our beautiful collective Jewish community can understand the value of an affinity space and how it really does serve to bring us closer together to the larger Jewish community. There are times when we have so many different identities that we can connect with folks of different identities, not only Jews of color, but I know a lot of synagogues are really comfortable and familiar with the idea of sisterhood groups. In that spirit, there are times where we can come together for our different identities and then become part of the larger Jewish community as well. That's what's so important, to understand about the value of Ammud and affinity spaces in general. Bryan Schwartzman: While we have another couple seconds of your time, if you'd like to support these groundbreaking conversations of Evolve on the podcast, on the website, in our web conversations, you can engage in citizen philanthropy and support us. Every gift matters. There's a donate link right in our show notes. Why not start with high, $36? Good place to start. Any gift to that size, it'll make a difference. Thanks for listening and thank you for your support. All right, now back to today's interview. It's my experience and understanding that the larger, if you can quantify or talk about the larger Jewish community in one- Alexandra Corwin: Totally. Bryan Schwartzman: Which is probably a fallacy, it's come a long way in the last decade or so in understanding the challenges and roadblocks that Jews of color were facing, have faced, continue to face, and the need for affinity spaces and initiatives. Is that your sense? Is there a way to talk about where things are versus where they need to go? Alexandra Corwin: Definitely. I think that so much of that progress has been so exciting for me to live through and watch. I'm 30 years old and I remember when I was a kid, I never heard of the term Jews of color, although there was so much activism from Jews of color working on that term, Shahanna McKinney-Baldon, Yavilah McCoy, and many other amazing Jewish women who were doing, who've done so much incredible work in those regards. April Baskin, Ilana Kaufman, I so admire the Jewish people of color, Jewish women of color, black Jewish women who have came before me and really paved the way. But when I was a kid, I knew that I had varying identities and they were somewhat ... They were unique and I would get excited whenever I would see another Jewish kid of color in Sunday school or temple, but I didn't have the language Jew of color. That was something that I was looking for community and searching online and grappling within my own way while simultaneously growing up and understanding, experiencing racism, not necessarily in Jewish settings, but in the broader world. Then, also having my identity as a little Jewish Latina girl in a predominantly white Jewish community. All of that came with that. There was a lot of growing and a lot of thinking and a lot of understanding and grappling and making sense of, but not until I was around several years ago, actually in my 20s did I hear of the word Jew of color. I understood deeply the power of what it meant to be in an affinity space with folks who had similar experiences as you and the power of language in that way and community. I wonder what we can do today knowing what we know about discrimination and how it manifests to support Jewish children of color, to grow up in a world where their full identities and their full selves are welcomed and celebrated and nourished and welcomed at the door. One of my goals with Ammud is to really grow into a larger organization, a legacy organization in so many ways, for all the folks who will continue to grow into adult Jewish people of color, but now who are Jewish children of color, which is, I know in the Chicagoland area, which is 17% of Jewish children are Jews of color. I believe that that mirrors larger national studies as well, is to really think about how Ammud can be a place for the future. How we can start supporting the Jewish education of Jews of color today to grow into the Torah and education scholars that we need, not only today but for tomorrow as well. Thinking about the future is something that's very important in that way. Yes, we've made a lot of progress, but there needs to be more done. I think a huge way of doing that is centering the leadership of Jews of color, because at the end of the day, I think those who are most impacted by the problem know the best solutions in a lot of ways. That's what we're doing here at Ammud. Bryan Schwartzman: Speaking of solutions, is there any way in a non-graduate level terminology to talk about Ammud's pedagogical approach, it's teaching methods and anything that ... How do you design a class, whether online, in person, that enables people to be their full selves and connect with this tradition that could be in another language that could seem opaque. There's probably not a one size fits all, but I know you're a teacher, there are a lot of teachers listening. I wanted to ask a teaching question. Alexandra Corwin: I love that question. So far, we have had tremendous success in sharing with teachers that we want them to be able to bring their full selves to the curriculum and share their Torah that they want to share. Really working on investing in folks, as I talked about earlier. But this next year is that we really are working on answering the question, what does it mean to teach at Ammud? What is Ammud's unique pedagogical approach? We're going to be embarking on a collaborative process to really hone in deep on what that looks like. You'll have me back on next year, and we're really excited to seriously answer this question. As a teacher myself and someone who is pretty excited and invested in how, and I say this for lack of a better word, but what we can learn from education in general, like secular education, what I learned in graduate school that's not necessarily always transferred into Jewish education settings, is how to take a lot of those different exciting theories like ethnic racial identity development and studies on belonging and incorporate it into the unique way that we can teach at Ammud. We're going to be starting along process of that, which is very exciting. Bryan Schwartzman: Faculty is full time, or you have different experts teaching different classes? How is the faculty assembled? Alexandra Corwin: Our recipe so far has been investing in Jews of color teachers in varying different ways. It looks like having perhaps 10 different teachers a year who share their Torah on 10 different subjects. It also looks like having part-time faculty, but I would be really interested in having faculty that are in a more long term level as well. We have amazing rabbis as well who teach classes. We have Rabbi Mira Rivera, Rabbi Kendell Pinkney, and not only do they teach classes, but they provide pastoral care to our students. Because what Ammud founders have realized is that coming into Jewish education for Jews of color, sometimes there's a lot there. I'll speak to experiences where if you were growing up as a kid and you experience racism in Hebrew school, when you go into a Hebrew class, there's going to be a lot of stuff there to unpack. A lot of things that you want to perhaps explore to make sure that it's a safe environment for you. Our pastoral care team are amazing rabbis. They're able to be here to talk to Jews of color, who can support them in all the different ways that a rabbi does support members. That's an important part of our model as well. Bryan Schwartzman: Oh, yeah. Folks know I'm, I guess, about as white Jewish as you can get, so I don't have any of that stuff to think about. But you just mentioned Hebrew school and I still think about getting pelted in the back with erasers and pencils, so we all have our stuff, I guess. Alexandra Corwin: Yeah. There's a lot there. Yeah. Bryan Schwartzman: But I understand the need of pastor. I wonder if that's something that the rest of the Jewish community can learn from, because if we're adults, so many of us come and want to engage with Jewish tradition on an adult level, there's baggage and whatever there. How do we get past that? Obviously, the level, the intensity, the issues are different. Alexandra Corwin: I would say too is that I'm very passionate about the education principles in adult education and best practices for why adult learners come to learn in general. Then, incorporating those different best practices for teaching adults, which is very different than teaching children in a lot of ways and making sure that that is normed at Ammud and that we're really using best practices and incorporating our own unique perspectives on the Torah, but focusing on adult education and really high quality programming, which is something that I'm passionate about. Bryan Schwartzman: You talked about percentages before. We've seen in recent years estimates range 15%, 20% of Jewish households have a member of Jews of color, who identify as a Jews of color. I don't know if I'm getting that exactly right. We'll check it in the show notes, but clearly that percentage is only going to increase. Does that make your work even more important, or do you think of it in those terms? Clearly, the Jewish community, you talked about the future and the future is not going to look like either what it actually was in the past or what some of us may imagine it looked like in the past. Alexandra Corwin: There's one part of the story that's important and that leads to where Ammud is going strategically in the future, for how to accomplish our mission. That is the fact that right now our spiritual and rabbinic leadership as a Jewish people does not mirror the beautiful racial and ethnic diversity that we have as a Jewish people. I believe that that is a problem for many reasons. One, is that if you are a child or a person growing up and have dreams of the highest levels of Jewish education in a lot of ways and becoming a rabbi or becoming a cantor, and if you don't see anyone that looks like you or who is in that leadership position, it becomes harder to see that for yourself. One issue is representation, and then another issue is really answering the question. There are so many ways to answer this, so I'll just ask the question is, what does the whole Jewish community lose when our ethnic and racial diversity as a Jewish people is not represented in our spiritual and rabbinic leadership? I think the answer to that is, we have a lot to lose out, not only on the beautiful Jewish wisdom, but it's not telling the full story of our Jewish peoplehood. Right now, I believe that we need to make urgent and significant investments in Jews of color to be able to move forward on any rabbinic dreams that they might have, so that in 10, 20, 30, 40 years that the rabbis that we support today are able to represent the ever growing beautiful racial and ethnic diversity of our Jewish future. Bryan Schwartzman: It's your hope that at least some of your students find their way to be Jewish educators, to be rabbis? Is that part of your hopes for some of the learning that goes on? Alexandra Corwin: Well, when we reflect back over the last couple years that we've existed, we have heard from a lot of our students that because of how empowered they felt at Ammud, to be able to have an opportunity to teach, and/or that they know that Ammud will always be here for them as a Jewish learning community, that they've been able to move forward and either apply to rabbinical school or go to a rabbinical school. Ammud has been part of their journey in a lot of ways. This has happened very organically. My question is, since this has happened organically several times already without having a strategic plan for it, how can we move forward to create a strategic plan based on the community needs for Jews of color who dream of rabbinical school? Bryan Schwartzman: I have spoken to more than one [inaudible 00:47:45], with a Yemenite or Moroccan background that has trouble connecting to the term Jews of color. I'm wondering if that's been an issue in recruiting students from all around the world if this particular population or others have been harder to reach or connect with? Alexandra Corwin: The term Jews of color, race at the end of the day is a social construct. At the same time, it concretely affects people's lives. A lot of folks are sitting in the messiness of trying to decide if they identify as a JOC, if they are grappling with the concept of being white passing. We welcome folks into the space in all that messiness as a JOC member. If someone identifies as white, then they're able to join the community as part of our ally circle. If folks are struggling with whether or not the space is for them, if they identify as Sephardi or Mizrahi but not sure about the race part, they are invited to reach out to us and have a conversation with us so we can unpack that together. At the end of the day, Jews of color, what binds us together in so many ways, as Shahanna McKinney-Baldon says, is that it is a political construct in a lot of ways. Because what binds us together is our experiences with racial discrimination in a lot of ways. If someone identifies as feeling discriminated because of their racial or ethnic identity, then I think there's a lot of room to explore if they can feel part of a Jew of color identity. I would invite them to explore our programming. Bryan Schwartzman: If a defining characteristic or unifier is negative experiences of discrimination, is it a challenge to turn around those negative experiences into positive affirmation and identity? Is that part of your mission? Alexandra Corwin: Definitely. I think that's where it starts. When I think of my own journey and understanding what my Jew of color identity means to me. It's the first place perhaps when I was really excited and I was 22 or 23 and I met another Jew of color who I just ... we're immediately drawn to, and we were able to talk about those experiences. I definitely think that healing and those shared difficult experiences are the first place a lot of that starts. But once you get deeper into it, it becomes so positive in so many ways because ... and I say this so much and I'm going to say it again. But when someone feels comfortable to bring their full self and all their ethnic and racial identities and all the varying cultures they come from within the container of a Jewish space. When they're able to do that, the vibrancy and the fullness and all the positives and celebration and positive racial, ethnic and Jewish identity that comes out in these spaces is huge and so positive. I would say that focusing on that, the discrimination is just one small slice of it, but it's been overwhelmingly positive in a lot of ways, these spaces. Bryan Schwartzman: You've mentioned forth a century and said you hope Ammud is still here in a hundred years. I imagine you haven't been asked to map out what the organization looks like in a hundred years, that'd be a serious long term plan. But I guess you see, even if you meet all of your goals and then some, and the Jewish communities are dramatically transformed into much more welcoming spaces, you'd still see a need for a space for Jews of color to learn together, that there's a joy and comfort there that will have value beyond combating what needs to be combated. Alexandra Corwin: I believe so. Another part of this story is that, as we will continue to become a more racially and ethnically diverse Jewish community in the United States and beyond, it's also important that not only our rabbinical leadership matches that, but also our Jewish nonprofit leadership there. I would hope that in a hundred years or in now, well, we're continuing this journey now, but in 20, 30 years, is that there will always be spaces that center the unique identities of our community and to elevate and foster that leadership as well. There's so many unique, beautiful identities in the Jewish community. Marginalized identities, so many that we can say, and there are lots of analogous Jewish institutions that are being led by folks who understand that problem very intimately. That's no different with Jew of color leadership. I hope that our Jewish nonprofit sector and our Jewish education leadership sector will place value in being led by folks who are closest to the problem. That is a long term dream. Another long term dream is, yeah, for us to continue to elevate the leadership of Jews of color. I think that's something that will always be relevant. Bryan Schwartzman: With Ammud, what are you looking forward to the most over the next year or two years? What excites you the most? Alexandra Corwin: I'm really excited about Ammud raising our public profile, and with the goal of Jews of color and folks and allies to come and join Ammud because I believe that when we get more love and more press and more people know about us, that they can see the impact that we're making. We'll be able to make a larger impact when we have even more folks who have joined our community and not only support us spiritually and morally, but also with resources for us to be able to grow as well. That's something that's really exciting to me. I'm really excited about answering the question of where Ammud, Jews of Color Torah Academy, what our unique role is in supporting Jews of color who dream of the rabbinate. I'm really excited to launch a strategic direction for that, which is very exciting. I ultimately am excited to grow Ammud and to continue to build our foundation so that we can be really awesome and values-based place to work. Bryan Schwartzman: Alexandra Corwin, thank you so much for your time, for a wonderful conversation. I love your idea. I hope to come back and do it again and see where this goes. Alexandra Corwin: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful to share about Ammud, Jews of Color Torah Academy, and anyone who's interested in becoming a member, whether they're a Jew of color or an ally, please go to ammud.org, A-M-M-U-D.org and sign up to be a member. You'll be on our email list and get all of the information about the amazing programming we're up to. Bryan Schwartzman: What did you think of today's episode? I want to hear from you. Evolve is about curating meaningful conversation, and that includes you. Send me your questions, comments, feedback, whatever you got. You can reach me at BSchwartzman@ReconstructingJudaism.org. We'll be back soon with a brand new episode. Evolve, Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations is executive produced by Rabbi Jacob Staub and edited by Sam Wachs. Our theme song, Ilu Finu is by Rabbi Miriam Margles. This show is a production of Reconstructing Judaism. I'm your host Bryan Schwartzman, and I will see you next time.