Brian Schwartzman: From my home studio, welcome to Evolve: Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations. Marc Overbeck: Maybe this is what has me being a Reconstructionist Jew in my mid 50s. I've never really given up my idealism about the possibility that government can be for the benefit of all. Brian Schwartzman: I'm your host, Brian Schwartzman, and today I'll be speaking with Marc Overbeck about his Evolve essay, Kaplan, Hertzel and the Current State of Israeli and American Politics. Now, Marc is a board member of Reconstructing Judaism who identifies as a progressive American Zionist. He wrote this essay in reaction to Israel's election back on November 1st, with Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition taking a clear majority. We're recording this intro December 22nd. We spoke with Mark exactly one week ago on the 15th, and just about 12 hours ago, Netanyahu announced he'd actually formed a government. Throughout most of the interview, we talk about this as something that's going to happen. Unlike in past iterations of Netanyahu governments, this time Netanyahu and his Likud party is aligned with several parties and individuals that have been described as extreme, racist, beyond the pale. The example most often cited is Itamar Ben-Gvir, who is the leader of the far-right Otzma Yehudit party. Just really quickly, he's called Arab members of Israel's parliament, the fifth column, and said Arabs should be expelled from Israel. Well reported until just a couple years ago, he's displayed in his home a picture of Baruch Goldstein, who back in '94 gunned down 29 Muslims worshiping in Hebron's Cave of the Patriarchs. A whole lot more could be said about Netanyahu's coalition partners and some of the actions the new parliament appears set on taking. Netanyahu, for his part, is telling the world and American allies, "Don't worry. Trust me, I'll keep these folks in line." Is what he's been saying. We'll share a recent NPR interview he gave in the show notes. A reminder, all of the essays discussed on this show are available to read totally for free on the Evolve website, which is evolve.reconstructingjudaism.org. The essays are certainly not required reading to listen and get a lot out of the show, but we certainly recommend checking them out for a deeper listening, learning experience. Marc's Evolve essay draws heavily on the writings of Mordecai Kaplan and Theodore Hertzel to frame his analysis. And so I just wanted to give you some bearings if those names are unfamiliar. Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan, who lived from 1881 to 1983, a good long life, was the intellectual founder of the Reconstructionist movement who had big impact on American Judaism broadly. And he was a Zionist who spent a great deal of time in Israel and rather than focus on the building of a political entity, he was concerned, yes, with a safe and secure home for Jews, but one that would serve as a wellspring of Jewish culture that would be in dialogue with Jewish communities from around the world. Theodore Hertzel, who lived a much shorter life, 1860 to 1904, was an assimilated Jewish Austrian playwright and novelist who, in one of history's great twists, became the galvanizing force behind modern political Zionism. And he organized the first international Zionist Congress in 1897 in Basel, Switzerland. Tennis fans, any of you out there, that's also the birthplace of Roger Federer. Also, in naming people, we've mentioned Robert Putnam, the prominent sociologist whose most famous book Bowling Alone details the decline in Americans participation in voluntary organizations and what that means for democracy. The short answer is it's not good. So, there's a whole bunch of links we're putting up, resources in our show notes. You can find it at evolve.fireside.fm and look for this episode. Okay, let's get to our guest, Mac Overbeck. So, Marc Overbeck, as I mentioned, serves on Reconstructing Judaism's Board of Governors, reconstructing Judaism is the central organization of the reconstructionist movement, and has twice served as president of Temple Death Shalom in Salem, Oregon. Mark works for the Oregon Health Authority as Oregon's designated director of the state's primary care office. He works to expand healthcare access for rural and other underserved communities through a multimillion dollar program to expand the size and diversity of Oregon's healthcare workforce. He's also worked in the governor's office in Oregon and once served as a research assistant to former British Labor Prime Minister Gordon Brown. Marc Overbeck, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you here. Marc Overbeck: Thank you, Brian. Absolutely, my pleasure and my privilege to be here with you. Brian Schwartzman: I'm really looking forward to it. So, whenever I sit down and make out a list of questions, I always have some version of where did this essay come from? And Sam Walks, my editor, partner behind the scenes, usually asks me to scratch it. But I think for this one, it really is an appropriate place to start. You are following the Israeli elections from afar, like millions of people throughout the world. You've got your own busy schedule, the American elections to follow, which came a week or two later. In the aftermath of these results, what inspired you to sit and write a very, I think, a different and informative piece about the Israeli elections and the context in which we're all living? Marc Overbeck: Yeah, Brian, thanks for that question. I don't know when I started to write that I set out to accomplish anything. It really was a point, it was an activity of combined inspiration, defiance, and angst when in fact I was sitting at my computer one evening in very early November on the cusp of the American midterm election, November 8th, and watching the results of the Israeli election like many American Jews have been following and seeing the results of the Israeli election for Knesset and thinking to myself, "We are really headed in a direction that is not true to the values of Hertzel or Kaplan." And I just started writing and writing and writing and maybe a couple of hours later I found that I had penned out this short essay that really captured what was in my soul in that particular moment. Brian Schwartzman: Before we get to the specifics, a little bit behind the curtains. You and I have talked before where we're recording and one of the things you said to me was, if you have a perspective, especially on something as important as the future of Israel, you should share it, whatever your background. Because it's important, because it builds to Israeli-American dialogue, a Jewish-Israeli dialogue. Can you say anything more about that? Marc Overbeck: Sure, and I think I had shared that with you, having found or maybe rediscovered my own passion for Zionism, which I'm happy to explain in a moment what I actually mean by that and I do mean Zionism in a very Kaplanesque way, but rediscovered my own passion for it. Look, I'm an American Jew. I care deeply about the Jewish people. I care deeply about the state of Israel. I care deeply about democracy as an American and somebody who grew up as a progressive Jew. And I want to express myself. And as far as people having to agree with my particular perspective, they don't have to. But what became very evident to me is that Jews, particularly American Jews, particularly progressive American Jews, it really is incumbent on us to express our commitment, our aspirations even, yes, our fears and angsts about Jewish peoplehood and the state of Israel. And I think, Brian, too many Jews are reluctant to do that. There's clearly a wave of anti-Jewish bigotry that can make that really challenging to even identify as Jewish, to be willing to say, "I stand with Israel. But let me tell you what I mean by that." And I am very, very fervent that American Jews, whether they agree with the points in my essay, whether they disagree with those points, absolutely should be expressing themselves because that's part of the expression of Jewish peoplehood. Brian Schwartzman: Lot to unpack there. I think I want to ask about some of the specifics. So, we're talking in mid-December. Folks in the world will hear this in a couple weeks. You and I are talking as it appears Benjamin Netanyahu is expected to form a government again. Marc Overbeck: Any day now, yes. Brian Schwartzman: So, he likely will have already done so by the time we talk. What has your reaction been to developments since the election? There's almost too many possibilities to mention. There's been talk of a high court override law. There's been talk of a new ministry position just for the West Bank, changing the law of return. Taken together. It seems like a possibility for some major changes within how Israel's governed, even as Prime Minister designate Netanyahu has said repeatedly, "Things aren't going to change that much." So, I guess that's a long-winded way of saying what has your reaction been as you've followed events since the election, since you've written this essay? Marc Overbeck: Yeah. Well, a few things. One is I don't think it's really a surprise to any of us who've been watching that Netanyahu is going to form a coalition. I think that was pretty much a foregone conclusion, at least within a week of the Israeli election of 64 members of the Knesset. Of course, I have watched, like many others, what the new policy seemed to be, what concessions his new allies in the Knesset seem to be asking for and their own aspirations. And it's not lost on me that it's not too much different necessarily to the drama that's been playing out around the Republican party's retaking of the House of Representatives in Congress and Kevin McCarthy, who intends to be the speaker, going to those who could help make him the speaker, and what concessions are they extracting from him. And at the same time saying, "Oh no, no, this is all under control and you don't have anything to be concerned about." I think that those of us who care deeply about democracy and the spirit and the face of Jewish peoplehood as represented by a government in power in Israel, I think we do have things to be concerned about for sure. And yeah, I've heard the, "Oh no, no. Israel's democracy, nothing Draconian is going to happen or nothing dramatic." But that's not actually what's being said by many of the coalition partners in terms of, "Oh yeah, we don't need these laws." For example, around if you've been convicted of a felony, it's fine for you to be a minister or, "Yeah, we're going to give the police these additional powers, but don't be concerned about that." I think any thinking person ought to be concerned, certainly aware, and reflect on what does that mean for the character of the state of Israel? Just like those of us in America are concerned, okay, well if the majority in the House of Representative says this is now our position, or that this person who's been diametrically opposed to the rule of law is now chair of the House Oversight Committee or the House Judiciary Committee, what does that actually mean to the character of our government? I think the possible comparisons are really striking. Brian Schwartzman: It was interesting. You addressed this point directly in your assay, but I've certainly heard when the political left says, "Democracy's in danger." The side on the right says, "Well, you're just saying that because you lost." I've heard that repeatedly. So, you mentioned that in your essay, you've thought about it, how do you respond when that comes up? Marc Overbeck: Brian, I was listening to the radio this morning and I heard a survey was conducted of Americans, and what I heard was that the number one concern of Americans right now is inflation. We can understand that. I was surprised and not disappointed to hear that the number two concern was preserving democracy. I think that's the right concern for Americans. I think it's the right concern for Israelis of all religions and ethnicities to be concerned for. I think it was Winston Churchill who famously said, "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the other forms." And it's messy, representative democracy is messy, pure democracy is probably chaos. And yeah, I can understand those who may wish to weaken what have been the traditional notions of representative democracies saying, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You're just overplaying that. You're trying to scare people." I can understand that because that's how that concern gets deflected, is, "Oh, it's not a real concern." But I would say for those people who really do care about representative democracy, around a liberal style, self determination of people to decide how they are going to together promote the welfare of a country, that is a real concern. And I was really delighted to hear that that's a concern, apparently, of a lot of people in America. I hope that's a concern of a lot of Israeli citizens. Brian Schwartzman: So, you have a fair amount of experience in government, in politics, in two countries. You worked with the Labor Party, I believe, in Britain and had interactions with Gordon Brown who would later become the last or the most recent labor Prime Minister of Great Britain, you've worked for the Governor of Washington State, and you work in a position now where you frequently deal with folks across the political spectrum. So, I guess I'm just wondering how has your various government experience shaped how you view and understand the Israeli political process? Marc Overbeck: Sure. And by the way, just a slight correction, it's of Oregon. Brian Schwartzman: Yes. Apologize for getting the state wrong. Marc Overbeck: No worries. Yeah, I'm proud to be a third generation Oregonian. My great-grandparents all traveled from Europe after the pilgrims, mostly landing in the Pacific Northwest, and one who came to New York and made their way over from Ellis Island to the Pacific Northwest shortly after. But I really was both astonished, saddened, and steeled in my vision when I worked as a young adult in the House of Commons as a research assistant to watch the goings on of the British Parliament and to see what seemed to be so many members of parliament who had been elected by people to make a better life for them, really treated it as quite a game and many people quite dismissive of their constituents behind closed doors. And that was really intriguing to me. And then coming back to my native state of Oregon, watching the members of the legislature deal with politics and attempting to make a better life for the citizens of our state and our citizen legislature and really being quite proud of that while at the same time despondent about some of the very silly decisions that I as a young adult thought were being made. And then over the course of 30 years, Brian as somebody who's worked in a governor's office, worked in a legislature as a staffer, and worked largely in the bureaucracy, I don't know, maybe this is what has, me being a reconstructionist Jew in my mid 50s, I've never really given up my idealism about the possibility that government can be for people. I have plenty of cynicism, a lot of skepticism. I've seen a lot that would argue for nothing's really going to be better, while at the same time understanding that many things actually are better. But I'm one of those people who grew up with Schoolhouse Rock in the '70s and '80s and learned We The People and the preamble to our nation's constitution. It is, "We the people in order to form a more perfect union." And to paraphrase, establish domestic tranquility and the common defense. All of that have not left me as a north star for how government ought to operate, and that's for the benefit of all. And I absolutely see that in Israel there are leaders, there are leaders in the Knesset who really do aspire to work for all. And unfortunately, as is I just think the case in politics anywhere, there are those who like to be in office and will do what they feel that they need to do to stay in that particular position. I think it's incumbent on those of us who really do aspire to that vision for the benefit of all to realize that representative democracy is fragile. Benjamin Franklin famously was reported to have said in response to some kid asking, "Well, what form of government is it?" "It's a democracy, if you can keep it." Brian Schwartzman: I think it was a republic, but yeah. Marc Overbeck: A republic, if you can keep it. Thank you. A republic if you can keep it. And the notion of self-determination for the benefit of all, which I think the founding of Israel was in honor of, the founding of the United States under its current constitution was founded in honor of. It takes work. Being Jewish takes work. We have 15 million Jews in a world of 8 billion people. And it takes work, it takes work to be here in service of the continued evolving of the Jewish peoplehood as a religious civilization. It takes work to be Jewish if you do that work in an America that is not predominantly Jewish, particularly in these times. But the work, just of continuing to stand for a representative democracy, to continue to stand for government that promotes the benefit of all. It's worth it. That was a lot. Brian Schwartzman: No, I was just going to say, a lot's been written, sociologist Robert Putnam and others, how we're not volunteering at all as much as we used to, Americans. We're not the society of de Tocqueville. We're not sitting on those committees. A couple years ago, I was on a little synagogue committee, but you're coming together to make a decision on behalf of a larger group of people. And just that little thing was work and it was messy, let alone running a country. But I don't know, there's something about participating in little things like that give you respect for the decision making process where you don't get everything you want, but you come together for the common good. Marc Overbeck: I think that's a great point, Brian. I had the opportunity to meet Robert Putnam, actually. Brian Schwartzman: Oh, wow. Marc Overbeck: I don't know, maybe, 20, 25 years ago, after Bowling Alone was published. And I totally agree with your point. I believe that coming together, participating in shared governance is self-actualizing work. And to me, that is much of the tragedy of the division in politics. Whether it's in Israel or whether it's in the United States, that that self-actualization for our best selves, it just gets lost. Back to something that you had asked earlier about my experiences, it's very easy to be cynical and decide that nothing is possible, or to curl up and say, "I've got to protect mine. I've got to become part of my tribe and only for my tribe. America first, or Israel first." It's very easy to do that. Not much really pulls for mutuality. But who we are as human beings really wants to be expressed. I don't think it's any accident that the founder of modern Zionism, Theodore Hertzel, wrote a utopian book about the Jewish state as a shared land where Arabs and Jews lived together in a thriving economy, there was no rancor. In fact, in The New Old world that he wrote, I think he was in his early 40s, it was shortly before his death. Brian Schwartzman: That was the novel he wrote, as opposed to- Marc Overbeck: Yes, the novel he wrote. Exactly. Yeah. Brian Schwartzman: ... Jewish state. Marc Overbeck: I think that state didn't even have a standing army. Now I would never go that far, but I don't think it's an accident that the visionary who founded that the Jews have a valid aspiration to a homeland actually penned a novel that was utopian in its outlook for what could be. Brian Schwartzman: That was also on my list of questions. I might as well jump to it now, is what inspired you to go back to these two particular sources? I think as a reconstructionist, it makes sense why you would go to Kaplan. Hertzel's an interesting choice. On the one hand, Hertzel is certainly venerated in modern Israel. On the other hand, I've wondered how much influence Hertzel has on the modern state. He died very early, 1904. He was in many ways a figure of the 19th century. He even went so far as to suggest that the Jewish state could be in Uganda and was definitely coming from a much less Jewishly immersed place than some of the States's founders, than the Heim Weitzmans, the David [inaudible 00:27:03] So, what made you go back to Hertzel, because it seems like you have, and what did you find in his writings? And he was a writer. He wrote a novel, he was a playwright. So, he certainly had a way with words. Marc Overbeck: Yeah. Almost all of his plays, interestingly ... I'm a very, very amateurish Hertzel scholar, but I was also really surprised and delighted to see that almost all of his plays that he wrote were comedies. Only a little bit of drama. But I think, Brian, why I went back to Hertzel, is my commitment to getting to the source of something. Now we toss around phrases like Zionism, and I actually was interested to set aside what I know about Zionism and go back to the source. Hertzel is seen as the founder of modern Zionism. Let's see what he actually had to say. And yes, you're right. His first idea was Uganda, give Uganda to the Jewish people, Britain as a home. And he died before Palestine was held up as the answer. So, he didn't have the opportunity to respond to that. And we never know, I think, exactly how he would've responded to that. But it was important for me to go back to the source to see what could I discover? And as good reconstructionist, the past does not have a veto. It's not necessarily the case that, "Well, what Hertzel said has to go." And certainly I don't think it has gone. I think you've made a point in some of our earlier conversations that Ben-Gurion had a vision for Zionism that was different than Hertzel's. Okay, fine. But I think what I found ... Kaplan and Hertzel, really interesting in similarity and also difference. Kaplan spoke passionately about Judaism as the religious civilization of the Jewish people and Hertzel, not so much in the religiosity of it. But in terms of seeing a non exclusive, or I'll say it the better way, inclusive opportunity for Jews to have a state. I think in that they share far more than they differ. Brian Schwartzman: Right, yes. And just to clarify, a lot of the most prominent founders of the state of Israel were secular. They weren't religious, but they came from an eastern European tradition. They were much more steeped in Judaism and Jewish tradition, even if they rebelled against it. What I meant. But I am wondering, you alluded to it earlier. You're an American Jew, you're a leader of the reconstructionist movement. What is your personal Zionism engagement with Israel? What does it look like? What do you think of when you think of your Zionism as you understand it? Marc Overbeck: Yeah, Zionism for me is the commitment to the reality of a home for the Jewish people. A state where the Jewish people can be free from persecution, free from expulsion, free from harassment, from extermination, from forced conversion, where the Jewish people can be. That's Zionism. Zionism is that there can be the establishment and maintenance of a Jewish state. For Kaplan, the establishment of a state was not in and of itself the goal, but really a step toward the success of the Jewish revival, which I also absolutely share. Now as a good reconstructionist, I really value taking our foundational documents, our work, our precepts, including those of Hertzel, and repurposing those for life today. And from the question of what will vitalize the Jewish people? What will vitalize Jewish peoplehood? What will help the Jewish people fulfill on our intentions and aspirations? And having a secure democratic state of Israel absolutely fits into that. There's no two ways about that. My concern is that we have a state that may appear at one level to be secure, but is actually not. There may be a military security to it, but not a humanistic security to it. And I certainly have concerns about Israel remaining a fully representative democratic state. Rabbi Deborah Waxman, the leader of our movement, wrote I think just this week, and she's visiting in Israel last month, and she saw firsthand what is happening in the country. And she wrote that was is unfolding and [inaudible 00:33:01] is a realization of an ethnonationalist vision that's qualitatively different from security. I could not agree more. My view of Zionism is that Jewish people have a place to be secure, to be fully Jewish, to express their Jewish peoplehood in a secure way. I don't think that's happening right now. I don't believe that the military security measures that are being taken aggressively against other human beings support that outcome. So, when I hear Zionism, I don't think, "Yes, a state for Jews only." I think a state where the Jewish people can be free and secure to express their Jewish peoplehood. And that's a different view from what the facts on the ground look like in many cases today. Brian Schwartzman: Okay. While we have a couple seconds of your time, if you're enjoying this episode, please take a moment to give us a five star rating or leave a review in Apple podcasts. And if you'd like to support these groundbreaking conversations of Evolve on the podcast, the websites, in our web conversations, there's a donate link in our show notes. Every gift matters. Thanks for listening and thank you for your support. All right, now back to our interview with Marc Overbeck. You mentioned Rabbi Deborah Waxman, who is the president and CEO of the organization I work for. So, I don't want to quote her and get her wrong, but I've heard her express frustration that there's often a human rights conversation about Israel and a security conversation about Israel and they always happen on different fronts and that two things aren't informing each other enough. And you could say there clearly are security threats to Israel. It seems like it's hard to dispute there is on some systematic level injustice and harm done. And how do you find the balance? I guess if I had a question, it seems like right now the concern about Palestinian human rights is just not on the Israeli political horizon. It's got a very small place in the dialogue for lots of reasons. Do we have, as American Jews who care about Israel and democracy, is there a role for us in trying to something about that? Trying to influence the conversation? I don't know how much we're listened to. Marc Overbeck: Well, there's a lot there. I'll start, Brian, with- Brian Schwartzman: Sorry. Yeah, as a journalist I'm supposed to ask quick short questions, but I got carried away a little. Marc Overbeck: That's okay. You're a reconstructionist journalist. I understand. Brian Schwartzman: We have a lot of words, yeah. Marc Overbeck: Well I think for sure, to one of your earlier questions, security, democracy, human rights, they have to go together. They can't be separate. And I think I probably share the views of many progressive American Jews when I express real concern about the human rights abuses that are happening. I absolutely do. The human rights discussion, in my view, can't be separate from security. It also can't be that or should not be that, well, we can't talk about Israeli security until Israel stops its human rights abuses. Those really are linked. The abuses that are happening, I'm not saying that it's a caused phenomenon, but I think anybody really looking can understand the correlation and the interconnection between a real sense of being attacked, persecuted, survival being threatened, and the need to lash out or the perceived need to lash out to try to prevent that which is being foisted on the state of Israel. I get that. I think everybody needs to acknowledge that Jews have a right to exist and I certainly understand that in the absence of that, it's hard to have a conversation for, "Let's treat everyone with dignity and respect." But it's got to be a core principle. And to go back to my analogies and my looking at similarities between what's happening in America, what's happening in Israel, although we don't have near the level of violence in the US, we've clearly seen an increase in the level of violence. And I think it's arising from the same type of a source, in a way. It's not that there's political violence in America specifically because of antisemitism, although there is. But this notion of the other and this demonization of the other and who I see isn't me. That's the real tragedy. Now there have been countries where, after a prolonged period of conflict, there have been truth and reconciliation commissions that have been established for the purpose of a national healing. And that may well be what's required in Israel for Arabs, Christians, Jews, to be able to come together and share their stories and to have a safe space to say, "Look, you took my family's property." Or to say, "Look, you took my daughter's life." That's hard stuff. And in our country, we're beginning to reckon with that kind of a dialogue required now with native people and with Black communities where our history as a country has not been great in terms of whom has been demonized as the other and oppressed. So, I've gotten a little far aside, I think, from where you began with security and human rights. But to bring it back, I think they're intricately bound up. We can't have real security until there's a shared understanding of what we're going to acknowledge and not acknowledge. A shared set of facts. And fine, you've got views about how this is, okay great, but we're going to respect one another. And that's what's missing. That was always a part of Hertzel's vision as I was doing some scholarship and I put this in my essay about, whether it's in Uganda, whether it's in Israel, Palestine, the notion of other nations and peoples living alongside the Jews in security. That was the plan. And that's real security. We can't have real security with human rights abuses. We can't have real security with political violence as the norm. And that's something we've got to transform. And we can't do that by only focusing on one side of the equation over the other. Brian Schwartzman: There's a growing number of, certainly within the Jewish community, of folks who are active, committed Jews, really care about social justice, who are really starting to question the idea, can Israel and can Judaism and democracy coexist? Is Israel something we can place hope in? Which pains me as somebody whose life has really been at impacted by my time in Israel and the ideals I think for which it aspires to. But it seems like you also share some of those ideals. So, what do you say to folks within our movement, outside our movement, with really good motivations, but seem like they might be giving up on that idea of a Jewish and democratic state? Marc Overbeck: Yeah, well, as I said in my essay, my assertion is that Zionism and democracy really are interlinked. They're not mutually exclusive at all. And I can really understand, and I have shared angst and real deep cynicism at times, when an Israeli government makes policy that seems diametrically opposed to what's really in the Jewish people's interest and certainly not in keeping with what a lot of American Jews would want from the state of Israel. I can understand the feeling of the need to pull back, I can understand the cynicism because I've been there. The resignation, the, "Oh, well, the Israeli government's going to do whatever it's going to do." The deep despair of, "How could the IDF kill all of these human beings and say it was necessary?" I really do get it. I would say back though, "It is more important than ever for Jewish peoplehood that the circumstances of today and the pull to disassociate from that, which seems hard, it's more important than ever that we not do that." And that's why I said at the very beginning, I want every Jew, regardless of your ideology, to be passionate, expressed in your love for the Jewish people, your commitment and aspirations for a state of Israel, even if it looks like the government of the state of Israel is not meeting those right now. Okay, that's what's happening. But I think a real threat, Brian, is if too many American Jews living outside of Israel become so disenchanted and let ourselves stay disenchanted and resigned, it will actually break the Jewish people. And that's the opposite of what the Jewish state of Israel was for. It was not to create two kinds of Jews in the world, one living in the land and the other not paying attention, disenchanted, disaffected from the other group Brian Schwartzman: Right. Now, that makes me think of the thinker a little bit later than Hertzel, Asher Ginsburg known as Ahad Ha'am, one of the people who, almost in Kaplanian terms, talked about a cultural Zionism as the Jewish community within Israel serving as a spoke, as center that yes inspires and dialogues with global Jewry. And that's the ideal. I don't know if we're there, but I heard that a little bit in what you were saying. Marc Overbeck: I think that's one really important expression. There are many Jews who consider themselves to be not religious, but very proud of a Jewish identity and for them it is largely cultural and it doesn't include a lot of spirituality necessarily in a religious or observant sense. I happen to be a somewhat observant Jew for a progressive Jew, and I came to really have a reawakened spirituality and connection to my Jewish roots and religious practice in my late 20s. And I'm so grateful that I had that spiritual rediscovery and it's part of what has me really be at home in the reconstructionist movement, that that spiritual expression is welcomed as a possible expression and not outside the norm. Even where many, many, many other Jews who identify as reconstructionist may be completely secular, but the point is not, "And do you cover your head when you go here?" It's not, "Do you abstain from eating certain foods?" It's, "Can we identify together as part of a Jewish peoplehood?" And how do we continue to perfect and evolve and co-create what it is to be Jewish in society today? Brian Schwartzman: As we're winding down, I think I wanted to bring us back to politics. Marc Overbeck: Great. Brian Schwartzman: I think that's a line from the show Hamilton. "Can we get back to politics, please?" We just had a year, year and a half, of a wide ranging anti-Netanyahu coalition, the first majority Arab party in Israeli government. As a government person, did you see that year and a half as hope for what can be? Was it just a mess? We know that the opposition really exploited its fault lines to bring it down. But did that point to anything? Is there anything to hang hope onto? I'm wondering, as somebody with your government experience, what you made of that experiment. Marc Overbeck: Sure. A few things I'll touch on, Brian. Thanks for asking that. First of all, I really was delighted by the coalition that came together as an expression of what could be. Particularly seemingly getting rid of a powerful, may I say, authoritarian figure, leading a government for a long period of time. Somebody who falls less on the side of "security" and more on the side of individual expression, experimentation, messiness. I think that authoritarianism is ultimately very, very dangerous for the wellbeing of a people and the expression and celebration of differences. We've just had too many historical experiences to, I think, think anything else. And yet people do long for security in a way and often seem to try to find that in authoritarian or autocratic leaders. And Kaplan said, "Trust not in powerful leaders to help us do everything, but trust in ourselves and our interactions." So, I was really delighted that after a very, very long period with one person at the helm, that it looked like Israel was ready for something else. Now, we just had the election where it seemed like, "Oh, maybe it wasn't so bad under the old days." We'll watch that play itself out the way it does and my hope is that the Israeli people really will recommit themselves to a pluralistic, non authoritarian form of governance. And by the way, I think it's harder to have hope in government now, but it's far more important to have hope in government now, to return to a theme. In the U.S., we've seen, I think, a similarity play itself out where those on the right have said, "Oh, the left is all a mess. They're trying to take all of your rights away. We need to secure our rights in the form of one or two or three important figures who are going to protect it for all of us." And I don't think many people on the left believe that line, but apparently enough people do. I was reflecting, I think yesterday, that maybe in this country, the last three elections, the 2018 midterm election, the 2020 election, the 2022 midterm elections, actually representative democracy may be actually springing back and we're going to have some setbacks. In Israel, people just elected a government that arguably does not look more democratic than the one that preceded it. But again, Kaplan said, "Judaism is the evolving religious civilization of the Jewish people." I am inclined to believe and certainly hope that while representative democracy may undergo some seeming setbacks, over the course of history, there is actually an arc that goes toward self-determination, towards self-actualization. I'm old enough and I've been around long enough to know that you don't always get the results that you want in any election. And I've seen real impact in government and the bureaucracy where you have somebody who has a very different notion of what government should and should not do and I've seen real impacts on people. Now when we limited property taxes dramatically in our state in the early 1990s, the Governor elect said infamously, "People will die." And she was laughed at and she was scorned, but in fact she was right. Government, when it's oriented to providing for the common defense, for promoting the general welfare, can help us all be our best selves. We now have a new Israeli government, or we're about to have a new Israeli government, or by the time that people listen to this, we probably will have a new Israeli government. We should not give up just because one election went a certain way on the very ideals to which we aspire that there can be, in the Middle East, a land where Jews, Arabs, Christians, others can live together and prosper together. Brian Schwartzman: Marc Overbeck, thank you. Thank you so much for the conversation. It was wonderful to have you as a guest. Marc Overbeck: Thank you. Thank you, Brian, so much for the opportunity. I think I will just close with one of Hertzel's most famous lines that, "If you will it, it's not a dream." That as long as we can still speak the possibility of a Jewish state where all can live in security, it's not a dream. It may seem far off, but it's available and possible. So, thanks for the opportunity for me to come and speak with you about something I've just become very, very passionate about for the future of the Jewish civilization. Brian Schwartzman: Hope to do it again someday. Hope to meet you in person off the Zoom screen and safe travels. Marc Overbeck: Thanks. Brian Schwartzman: Thanks so much for listening to our interview with Marc Overbeck. So, what did you think of today's episode? We want to hear from you. Evolve is about curating meaningful conversations and that includes you. Send me your questions, comments, feedback, whatever you got. You can reach me at bschwartzman@reconstructingjudaism.org. And don't worry, we'll be back soon with a brand new episode. Evolve: Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations is executive produced by Rabbi Jacob Staub and edited by Sam Walks. Our theme song, [inaudible 00:55:04] is by Rabbi Miriam Margoles. This show is a production of Reconstructing Judaism. I'm your host Brian Schwartzman, and I will see you next time.