[music] Rachael Burgess: Welcome to Trending Jewish. I am Rachael Burgess, here with my co-host Bryan Schwartzman. Bryan Schwartzman: Shalom, Rachael. RB: Shalom, Bryan. [chuckle] RB: You know, you can't make "shalom" sound really mischievous. BS: No? The gruff Israeli colonel maybe could, like, "shalom". I don't know. [chuckle] RB: No. Even that just sounded so pleasant. BS: All right. Maybe the word is just inherently peaceful. It feels like a hectic day though. Has it felt like a hectic day for you yet? RB: It has been. There's a lot going on, school's starting and just a lot of buzzing around. But I have to say that I'm actually very, very excited to talk to our next guest. Bryan and I, we're talking about our guests who Bryan will introduce in just a minute. We've been watching them on YouTube, they have a YouTube channel, for a long time and we feel like we know them so well yet we haven't met them in person and they have no clue who we are, which is fine. That's going to change today. So I feel like a fan girl a little bit. BS: All our secrets will come out. RB: Yes. [chuckle] So Bryan, why don't you introduce our guests? BS: Well, I am also really excited to have the hosts, the creators, the stars of the YouTube series Carpooling with Rabbi. You can find it on YouTube, on Rabbi360.com, and the hosts are Rabbi Seth Goldstein and Kirsten. Rabbi Seth Goldstein is a graduate of the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, where we're broadcasting from. He serves as the rabbi at Temple Beth Hatfiloh in Olympia, Washington. He is the president of the Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association. He's got a hefty social media presence and a lot of other involvements. He's a fellow of Rabbis Without Borders and does many other things. And we have with him his partner in social media stardom, Kirsten, who was formerly the community engagement staff person at Temple Beth Hatfiloh, an artist and someone who... We're not going to give a whole lot of big introduction for her, but we'll learn more about her as the show progresses. So, welcome Rabbi Seth and Kirsten. We feel like we know you, but we're so pleased to meet you. [chuckle] Rabbi Seth Goldstein: Thank you, it's great to be here. K: Good to be here, thanks. RB: And I think also, to get an idea of what this YouTube series is about, Carpooling with Rabbi, basically, Kirsten and Rabbi Seth are riding in a car, riding to work, riding home from work and they are just having... You guys are just having these fabulous conversations about everything. From life, death... BS: Smoothies. RB: Like every... You have all of these very interesting conversations. So how did you... This seems to be a bit of a thing now where people are doing, like Carpool Karaoke. What made you decide, "Hey, we're having all these conversations in the car. Why don't we just record these and make these into a YouTube video?" SG: I have to say that unlike all those other video series, we are actually carpooling. [laughter] SG: So, it's completely legit. [laughter] RB: Oh, you're actually going to work. SG: It's not staged. We were actually carpooling, so we were... So, Kirsten had moved into a home that was sort of near my son's school, right around the corner from my son's school and I was dropping him off everyday. And I knew she was busing it in to work. So I just said, "Look, I'm driving right past your house everyday. Why don't I just give you a lift?" And so, we had been carpooling for a bit before we started to do the series. And there was sort of a confluence because we were having these great conversations already at work, in the office. Just at various times on various things, just things that come up or questions, and we would have these pretty... Yeah, deep and intense spiritual conversations. And we would have them in the car and then we started to film them. I kind of showed up one day with... [laughter] I think I kind of surprised Kirsten though. K: Yeah. I opened the door and I went to sit down and I was like, "Oh my goodness. There's a camera lens like facing towards us." [chuckle] Like I can see myself in the windshield. And I just looked at Rabbi Seth and I was like, "Oh my God. What is happening?" [chuckle] There's actually, I think there's a promo that has the legit footage from that first ride where I sort of freak out and that's real, that's totally real. He sort of just sprang it on me. But... BS: No warning, no, "You might want to dress up that day."? SG: ... I was like, "Oh my God, it's perfect." RB: So you had no conversation about doing a YouTube video before that day? This was just, "Surprise." [laughter] K: It really was a surprise but that goes to show you how, I don't know, the willingness to try new things and we're both in this place of, "Wow these conversations we feel are really exciting and I wanted to share them with a larger community," and this was sort of the perfect opportunity to do this and plus, we have a really great time together so I think it was a perfect storm there. RB: Well it also says a lot about your trust for each other where you're, here it is this idea of, "Let's take videos of all of these deep conversations," and you think, "Okay, I trust this Seth guy, he seems pretty legit, I think I'll give this a shot," so that says a lot about your trust in each other. SG: Yeah, I think that's right. 'Cause we had developed this trust just by having these open conversations between ourselves and then just filming. It could've gone really badly when I just show up with a camera going. But we went with it and we gave it a shot and we just went through one the first time and when we pulled up to work realized, "Yeah, this actually could be a thing". BS: I took it like... Kirsten, I sort of inferred from the series that you don't identify as Jewish and we're really coming at some of these deep theological, philosophical discussions from a different perspective. Is that right, or was it sort of intentionally meant to be a little vague, or did I miss the episode where you get into that? [laughter] SG: That's a good idea for another episode. K: Yeah, a follow-up. I identify as Jew-ish. There's a hyphen in there. I wasn't raised Jewish or anything but I've been exploring and practicing Judaism for several years prior to coming to TBH. I consider myself a spiritual person who is interested and informed by many different faith journeys. And working at TBH was an incredible experience, to be able to show up as my full self and to work with something that I'm really interested in, spirituality, and to be in an environment where I can ask as many questions as I have and not be made to feel silly was really encouraging. And just to have an experience where I can deepen my understanding of what Judaism is and what it can mean for me and how I can connect to it and how it functions for other people was really rewarding and continues to be rewarding through my friendship with Seth and through the series. RB: So I'd like to actually play a clip from... This is episode 21, this is actually one of our favorite episodes, called "Not Okay", so I want to play a couple minutes of this. So this actually came out in November 2016, so I'm also curious about what your thoughts are almost a year later after you posted this. --- K: Thanks for giving me a ride home. SG: Yeah, that's all right. That was a day. K: What a day, yeah! Yikes! SG: That was a day. It was like one thing after another. K: Yeah. Yeah, that was a little rough. [chuckle] SG: Yeah. K: Yeah, but it's over now. SG: It is over, but we're still thinking about it. What was rough for you about it? Everything? K: Yeah. SG: Yeah it was a lot coming at us. K: And that's the... If someone were to ask me, "How was your day?", I would just be like, "It was okay." SG: Right. But it wasn't. K: But it was not okay. [chuckle] That is an understate... Not even an understatement, that is just wrong. SG: So, yeah. No you're right, but that's it right? We have these pleasantries and we... So is it okay to just say it wasn't okay? 'Cause that's what we say, right? K: Right. If someone were to ask you, "How was your day?" SG: I'd be like, "Well, you know, it was actually kind of hard. I had these difficult... " whatever. K: Yeah. And you don't even have to launch into it. You could just say, "Actually, today was really difficult." And then the person could be like, "Do I want to engage in this conversation or not?" SG: Right. But we end up just saying, "Okay," because we don't want to impose, or we just want to... Why do we do that? K: I definitely do it because I don't want to be burdensome. And I think I also don't like how it sounds. I like to be like, "I am strong and capable and I can handle anything." SG: To me it sounded like... how it sounds for you to have that little bit of vulnerability. K: Yeah. To admit like, "Actually maybe I'm not a superhero." [chuckle] And something got underneath my skin, or something was tough, or something made me sad, or whatever. But the thing is, I really value that in other people. I value other people being emotionally vulnerable with me. And I think that being able to own one's emotions is a real strength. So, but when it comes to myself, I feel a little uncomfortable. SG: Right, I understand. Yeah, no, I feel that way too. But it's nice, I mean, I think that there's pressure not to at times. And I think it's... K: Not to what? Be emotional? SG: Yeah, not to be emotional, not to be that vulnerable, to cover up, or to just put on a face even if there is stuff going on and... What would it be like if we sort of lowered that bar a little bit, and just made it okay or socially acceptable to be in that state of vulnerability with each other? K: Okay to not be okay. SG: Yeah. K: Yeah, I don't know. I was going to say if your doctor comes in, and you're like, "Oh, how are you?" to your doctor and they're like, "Having a hard day." Would that be inappropriate? I don't know. SG: [chuckle] "Yeah, just lost another one." [laughter] K: "I'm really thinking about a career change. I don't think I'm so good at this anymore." [laughter] SG: "I shouldn't have skipped those credits in med school." --- RB: First of all, one of the things that I'm very fascinated about is even though you started this episode out having a bad day, how calm you are as a driver, Seth. I just... [laughter] RB: I mean, in all of these episodes, you are just such a nice driver. I don't know if I've been tainted from living on the East Coast for the past 10 years. BS: Episode 42: The Accident, never aired, right? [laughter] SG: Yeah, we cut that one out. We cut that one out. If you pay close attention, there are certain times when I'm driving and I actually take my hands off the wheel 'cause I'm talking. K: Gesturing. SG: Gesturing, yeah. And sometimes, when I park, I don't put it in park right away and Kirsten... [chuckle] K: It grinds my gears a little bit, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, please put it in park!" [laughter] SG: We'd be in conversation. BS: Did you guys just block this out? Was it wrestling and all pre-planned? Or did you just kind of both have a bit of a challenging day, and it just all happened organically? SG: I think it happened organically. That one was definitely after a bad day, if I'm remembering correctly. It wasn't just a... It was one of those days where everything is sort of hitting at once, we just had a lot coming through the office, and no time to breathe, and no time to check in, and people coming to me and to Kirsten and it was just one of those days where it was like, when it's over, it's like, "Whoah, what just happened?" So that was coming off of it. Pretty much all the episodes are somewhat organic. They come from a variety of different sources. Sometimes, I would have a topic I wanted to talk about. Sometimes, Kirsten would have a topic she wanted to talk about. Sometimes, we told each other the topic, other times we didn't, and we just sort of sprung it on each other. And sometimes, we got in the car without any plan and something just developed. I think it turned out, actually the ones where we over-thought were actually terrible. We didn't even air those because we weren't able to have a genuine conversation. We were just trying to recite a script almost. So those didn't work. So yeah, all the conversations were pretty much organic. Some based on what happened that day, other things that were just on our minds. And that we just went with whatever came to us at the time. RB: So what was your goal in sharing these conversations? I mean, you're having these fascinating conversations that we can all relate to. Obviously, you both knew that this was happening. It wasn't like this was a big, there was a secret camera or anything, but what was the goal of sharing your private, deep conversations with the rest of the world? SG: I think that our impulse, our goal is that these conversations aren't exclusive to us. And I think we're having them in that moment in the car, but I think it's a lot of what people are thinking about. And I think that our intention was that people are riding along, and engaged in the conversation because it's something, it's a conversation that they're having. So this is maybe our iteration of it, but it's not something that's not outside the norm of what people are thinking about from the spiritual basis. And I think that one of the things that we were trying to capture or think about that we thought about and talked about in that conversation, in another episode about grief, is that we try to think expansively about what the spiritual response to these things are. And sometimes feeling against the norm, as it were. That's sort of the whole point of this "Not Okay" episode, which was, "No, you're supposed to be okay." You're supposed to present as okay, and things just must be okay even if when they're not. But what if it's okay to not be okay? And how different that is, but how much of a genuine spiritual response that is. And so, we were hoping to just put topics out there for us to converse about, but then for others... One, to reflect conversations that I think people were having, but also maybe to spark conversations in other people. K: I just want to say, I also feel like, I think these conversations are relatable. And I really had this desire that other people would be engaging with these topics on a larger scale, because I realize like, "Wow, this has been so beneficial for me to discuss these things." And in particular with "Not Okay" I felt like I really wanted there to be an affirming voice out there in the universe that says, "Hey, things are hard sometimes. And it really truly is okay to not be 100% all the time, and to admit that." So I think part of sharing them, came from a desire of wanting to be more honest in general, and feel like there were more voices, public voices, loud voices, that were encouraging this honesty and this vulnerability. And affirming that however you're feeling, and whatever you're thinking, and whatever you're questioning, is totally valid. BS: I feel like whether a format, whether it's in video like you're doing, or an audio, there's just been a proliferation of people essentially listening to other people's conversations in a mass format, or a mass platform. What is it about that do you think that's so fulfilling on some level? Are we just natural eavesdroppers? Are we, many of us, not having these real conversations, and getting it vicariously? Why is it just so fascinating on a podcast? Or just to really hear two people engage with each other? K: Well, first of all thanks for saying it's fascinating to listen to us. That's sweet of you. I don't know. I guess I can only speak for myself in that... Well, like when I listen to you, it's a part of what happened before. Like when I started this series, I was listening to a lot of spiritual discussions online already. And for me, that was like I was searching for something that wasn't necessarily available in my local space or I haven't yet found it in my local space. So I think part of it is just a desire to find really specific community. The internet is great for that; you can literally find anybody talking about anything. And so that desire of like, "I have this really particular urge to find out about this." And chances are you're going to be able to find someone who is talking at length, like 30 minutes on YouTube, about this particular thing. And I find that there's great comfort in that. Sometimes I just go on YouTube, and I have my favorite channels that I listen to, and I put it on, and I fall asleep. I'm like, "I think that's totally valid." I probably won't let them know that I'm listening to them to fall asleep to. [chuckle] K: 'Cause that actually sounds a little bit creepy. SG: Hopefully nobody's falling asleep to Carpool. K: Exactly. I wouldn't want to know that. Don't tell me that. RB: Well, we just said that we were eavesdropping in on your conversations in the car. So, I'm sure we're all being pretty creepy ourselves. But I think falling asleep to a chat isn't too... To a YouTube video isn't too bad. SG: I think people want to engage in conversation in general, that people don't want to hear lectures, or be passive. And I think that it's a way of doing it. Even the conversation we're having now is really engaging, and we're not sitting here talking about what we do. We're all talking about what we do, and going back and forth. And I think it's a way that we have to engage in this way. That we could be a part of larger conversations, and hear other people's conversations, and extend them in our own lives. And it's all part of a larger whole. BS: Well, you're each coming from very different perspectives. With obviously a rabbi on the one hand, somebody exploring Judaism on the other. I'm curious how having these conversations and putting them out there, what kind of impact it's had on each of you? Has it changed you at all? SG: Yeah, I was very conscious, at least me when I was going into it, that I wasn't interested in doing a series that was, "Judaism says this about this." That it wasn't an exclusively Jewish podcast. So here's the Jewish view on grief, or here's the Jewish view on dreams, on another episode we did. I was very interested in just having a conversation about spiritual issues. And yes, I'm a rabbi, I come from the Jewish framework, and that's my foundation, but yet I'm interested in the exploration. Which is why I found these conversations very powerful, because Kirsten was able to challenge me, to question me, to offer different perspectives, and different ways of seeing things that then became part of the engagement. It wasn't a debate, it wasn't me Rabbi-splaining to Kirsten about aspects of Judaism. It was a genuine conversation where we would do it, able to exchange ideas. And that's something that I've really taken to heart, and taken with me. That ability to receive, that ability to think differently, and to think more expansively about how I approach issues of spirituality. And to know that Judaism is part of the conversation, but then how could we have this larger conversation about these issues around spirituality. So that for me has been very personally enriching. Kristin? [laughter] K: You really nailed it. Yeah, I feel like... What am I trying to say here? I came... SG: What are you trying to say here? [laughter] K: I think I'm aware of... Like I said earlier, working at TBH, I was never made to feel silly or stupid for asking a question about something I didn't know. And as someone who identifies as Jew-ish, but not necessarily Jewish, there really was no separation. I didn't feel like I wasn't included, but I am aware, through having these conversations in the car wanting to know more about Judaism and how it fits in with my beliefs and how... Look, some of the episodes I love the most are the ones where I'm expressing frustration. I'm like, "I don't understand forgiveness." [chuckle] Or like, "Yom Kippur is not the best holiday." SG: Yes, it is! I think you need to go back and watch that episode again. [laughter] K: And to have that, me bring my baggage or me bring my questions and to have Seth there and being like, "Well this is another perspective." And that willingness for me to be open and to share my vulnerability, my struggles and to have him be open and say, "Well, here's this framework," or, "Here's how you can maybe interpret this one." See now, vulnerability and willingness to share, I think has been the most important thing for me. And that's really what I hope people take away from this is just the ability to yeah, share things that are maybe seemingly really private. Spirituality isn't necessarily something that everybody talks about, but it's one of my favorite things to talk about. [chuckle] K: And that it's totally great to discuss these things and that I can be totally silly, and I see them. I don't know if the videos really capture it, but just me coming into the rabbi's office and being like, "So I see this book on your shelf. Can I touch it?" As I'm already just pulling books off of the shelf and being like, "What does this book say about this?" Or, "Can you tell me about angels? Can you tell me about what divinatory devices are used in Judaism?" Any of these things, just like, off the wall questions that I have, and... SG: That's why we did the series. It's like, "I cannot get any work done... " [laughter] SG: "'Cause Kirsten keeps coming here and asking me questions, so let me just talk about this in the car on the way home." K: You gotta reign it in. [laughter] K: But he's been great. But honestly though, probably the biggest takeaway from doing this project and from working here, is the friendship that I developed with Seth and the collaborations, the community collaborations that have come out of it and are continuing to come out of it, so for that I'm very grateful. BS: You had this... You talked about an episode where at times when you were frustrated. There was this episode "Spies" where you were discussing the story of "Spies" I think from the Book of Numbers and how the Israelites, or this wandering generation ultimately doesn't get into the Promised Land for whatever failings they have. And you just expressed this real moral outrage in a story I'd never really dug that deeply into. And at first, Rabbi Seth is defensive and then you almost concede some points and it was a really fascinating give and take about a story that's thousands of years old. I don't know. That seems to be, that just doesn't seem like the conversation you think of having with your Rabbi. You think of your Rabbi as this authority figure, but that was a very different conversation. K: Oh no! [laughter] SG: Yeah, wait a minute. [laughter] RB: Everything was fine, Bryan, until you brought that up, and now... [laughter] BS: Oh no! A friendship ruined. [chuckle] SG: Well, I could just say now that Kirsten was completely wrong in everything she said. K: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! [laughter] K: No, I think he's been very great at handling... He has to be able to be in that space of, I'm coming at it with like, "Oh my God. I'm having this really strong emotional reaction." And Rabbi Seth says to the B'nai Mitzvah kids when they're studying and they're going to do their Torah portion, "It's good to get frustrated about it, to have this intense emotional reaction, 'cause that means you're engaging with the text and that's exciting." That's really exciting and that's where the learning is happening, and so I feel like I've been engaging with the Torah in amazing ways, so feeling good about that and thanks, thanks for hanging with me through that. [laughter] SG: No, it's been great for me too. I love that back and forth and the engagement and seeing what rises up for you and to say, "Well, maybe look at it this way," on one hand, but also like, "Yeah, that's a really interesting way of looking at it." K: And I hope that I've also altered some of your... SG: Yeah. No, that's what I mean, yeah. That your challenges and sometimes frustrations with the text, I think it's great, and it's a place of learning and growth. RB: We're running out of time, which is... I'm very sad about actually because it's so wonderful to finally get a chance to meet you after spending so many months listening to your conversations. [laughter] RB: From all the way out here in Philadelphia. And one of things that saddens me terribly, besides not being able to ask you more questions for too much longer is, Kirsten, you're not there anymore, the series is on, I don't know if it's on hiatus. I want to say it's on hiatus to give me hope but... SG: You can say that. RB: I'll say that to make me feel better. But the show is not, you're not recording new episodes now because you're not there anymore. BS: The movie version, "The Two Hour Drive With Rabbi", can we expect that? [laughter] K: No, road trip, "Road Tripping With Rabbi". [laughter] RB: So tell us, you're on this great new adventure and I'm very excited for you and I was wondering if you wouldn't mind telling us what your new adventures are and why you're not giving me more conversations to overhear? [laughter] K: Well, so part of it is that I'm no longer working at TBH. But we also, we recorded these 36 episodes as a little miniseries. I don't think we ever thought it would go on forever. SG: Yeah, I think there was some shifts in that as well, I mean in terms of Kirsten leaving her position. But I think that also felt to us that that provided a sort of interesting framework for this series. And I think that even the last episode was another reflection, it wasn't just like, "Here, it's over." But yeah, I think we were... We did have this notion that it was for this closed set, as it were. and it ended on 36, "double chai" and it's broken up into series. And I think that's... I mean I don't know. But it was... It's not the end, as Kirsten meant, it's not the end of our collaboration. And we've started talking about different ways of collaborating on different projects. So it's maybe this one, Carpooling, is over. But, well, it's on the internet, things never die on the internet. So it'll be there forever and hopefully people will continue to discover it and engage with it -- we're still engaged with it, we've not closed the door on it completely. So we hope that it continues to have life in that way. K: Yeah, I wouldn't mind a reboot, honestly. [laughter] SG: We can see, that's what I say, I say hiatus but I'll just say... I won't give a lifespan on it. But we collaborated on this Tarot and Omer project this past year also that was... K: On Instagram. SG: On Instagram, yeah, an extension of the carpooling, because there was another way of embodying this conversation across traditions, where we essentially took the tradition of counting the Omer between Passover and Shavuot and the kabbalistic approach to that in assigning the different Sefirot, the divine qualities, to each week in each day. And then adding to that Kirsten's practice of Tarot, and drawing a card for each day of the Omer. And then we would collaborate on a writeup of each day, looking at what does this tradition bring to that day and what Kirsten's card draw brought to that day, and having that conversation across traditions. So that's still on Instagram, and we hope to do that again next Omer period. And so we're just talking about ways of continuing that conversation. We're not in the car together but "Skyping with Rabbi"? We can figure something else out. RB: Or "Rabbi Talking To Himself"? SG: Yeah, I can just talk in the car by myself. [laughter] RB: I'm also, I see the way you're having these conversations carpooling, I carpooled with Bryan once actually going up to New York City and I was driving us through Manhattan. And here you are just having these lovely conversations and it's all friendly and I was, I think interrupting the middle of our conversations going, "Why did you cut me off?" Like road rage. [laughter] SG: That's the difference between driving in New York and driving in Olympia. RB: My road rage came out. SG: I remember there was this one episode where we got stuck in construction and the construction flagger came over to the window. So he was incorporated. He made a cameo. [laughter] BS: I think I was also folding papers and it was preventing me from eating my breakfast and Rachael got to see me at my most hangry. So something about... [laughter] K: Oh, Seth has definitely seen me at my most hangry, that's for sure. [laughter] BS: Well this was a lot of fun, I hope you do reunite and we get to do this again. RB: Absolutely. K: Yes. RB: This has been absolutely exciting, I've been fangirling because again we've been watching these episodes and to finally get to, we felt like we knew everything about the two of you and you hadn't met us yet, so. BS: And listeners can still see all of the 36 episodes on rabbi360.com. And the hosts are Rabbi Seth Goldstein and Kirsten. RB: You can also see more at our website, which is trendingjewish.fireside.fm. So I am Rachael Burgess here with... BS: Bryan Schwartzman. RB: And you've been listening to Trending Jewish. [music]