Bryan Schwartzman: From my home studio, welcome to Evolve: Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: When I leave the bris, I feel as if I have helped these parents engage in the very, very early part of their Jewish parenting in a positive way. Bryan Schwartzman: I'm your host, Bryan Schwartzman. Today we'll be returning to a topic that I said last month has been the punchline of a million jokes, but is increasingly the subject of serious conversations. I'm talking about the ancient commandment of circumcision, brit millah, bris. Last month, we heard from two critics of the practice. And this month we're speaking to a mohel, Rabbi Kevin Bernstein, whose Evolve essay is titled simply We Should Continue Practicing Brit Millah. Bryan Schwartzman: Rabbi Bernstein offers a Reconstructionist perspective on the ancient practice. And in some ways, his take is not that far off from our guests last month, the novelist, Gary Shteyngart and business strategist, Max Buckler. He certainly doesn't advocate that all Jews need to do this in order to be considered Jews or accepted into Jewish communities. But at the same time, he does offer a very different take than we heard last month. I mean, how could he not? He's a mohel performing circumcision. And this is an invaluable voice in the larger circumcision conversation. Bryan Schwartzman: So repeating what I said last episode, the Evolved Project: Reconstructing Judaism, we're not taking a position on this, sort of for or anti circumcision. When it comes to Jewish ritual and communal behavior, we think no conversation should be off the table. And it's Evolve's function, mission to really bring nuanced, respectful dialogue to the public square. Bryan Schwartzman: And though our guests last month and this month didn't appear together, it really felt to me in the two episodes like they were talking to one another in a way that the ancient rabbis like to describe as an argument for the sake of heaven. So I think that's what we're having in facilitating here. So a warning again, this episode is about circumcision. At times, it can be graphic and at times can be a little bit of a tough listen. So just be prepared. Bryan Schwartzman: As a reminder, all of the essays, all of the Evolve essays are available to read for free at evolve.reconstructingjudaism.org. You certainly don't have to read Rabbi Kevin Bernstein's essay to follow this interview today, but it certainly helps and deepens your experience. Now it's time for our guest rabbi. Bryan Schwartzman: Kevin Bernstein was a veterinarian for many years, including a long stint where he practiced in Israel. Following his 2007 graduation from the Reconstruction Rabbinical College, he's been located in the Philadelphia area, serving as a director of education in synagogues, as a school rabbi and teacher in day schools, as an intern rabbi, and also as a mohel in the greater Philadelphia area. And his mohel practice has been hallmarked by the inclusion of both interfaith and gay and lesbian parents, as well as converts. And we're really excited to have him here today as a conversation partner. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein, welcome to the show. It's great to have you. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: Thank you very much. It's great to be here, Bryan. Bryan Schwartzman: So I guess I just wanted to start. I know you and I have talked. You and I have definitely talked privately. We used to work together. But for our listeners, if sort of standing on one foot, you could take us through a little bit how you started out as a veterinarian and became a rabbi and a mohel in a process. So this is years of your life. Is there a thumbnail sketch of how that all happened? Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: Yes, there certainly is. Yes, it is a little bit unusual to have first studied veterinary medicine and to have practiced, and then afterwards to decide to become a rabbi and work in the Jewish professional world. But I am one of those rare people. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And in the process, and during the study that I went through to become a rabbi, I happened to be hired by a mohel in the Philadelphia area to tutor his son for bar mitzvah. And in the course of that relationship, he discovered and came to realize that I was a trained veterinarian. I'd like to think that he also discovered and came to recognize what kind of person I was, what kind of Jew I was, maybe what kind of rabbi I would be. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And so at the end of that process, he asked me if I would like to train to become a mohel. And to be honest, it sounded very interesting and perhaps fun. And one thing that made it easier for me to make that decision, and I assume that made his decision also easier, is that he knew that I had the medical and the surgical training and background. So that wouldn't be a piece that is very, very difficult for me to master and feel comfortable with. And that's really how it started. And I continued to train with him for a couple of years until I went out on my own. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: I will add one other piece is that the training that I undertook as a rabbi at RRC was really helpful for me to study this and do this in the way that I had preferred. I would almost say that I got a rabbinical degree with a minor in circumcision. And what I mean by that is that, for those people who don't know this, the curriculum for the reconstructionist rabbis was and still remains to be very chronological in terms of learning about Judaism and Judaic civilizations from the biblical period, to the rabbinic period, et cetera, et cetera. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And so I sort of had the opportunity to study what brit millah was like, what circumcision was like during all of those periods. And so that turned out to be really fortunate for me and very enjoyable for me. So that's kind of how my training morphed and how it began, and how it continued. Bryan Schwartzman: That's really interesting. I don't think that ... I know that the college doesn't follow that sequential model anymore. It was a very unique model. But that's interesting. So we actually have records of what circumcisions were like in the biblical period and in the rabbinic period. I mean, that's not something I've ever heard much about. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: Well, like all of our history, we don't have too much to tell us exactly how Jews practiced anything during the biblical period. What we would go by is we can go by the documents, what we have. But as most people who have studied Judaism in our ancient text, very little bit of the Bible and the Bible's narrative is backed up by archeological evidence. And the same thing goes for what circumcision was like. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: But we can certainly look and see what those who came afterwards thought that was like. And in some cases, it's kind of an imagination. The example I give is that the rabbis of the rabbinic period. I'm not sure if they imagined, or if they liked to imagine that the people of our Bible practiced Judaism in the exact same way that they did, that Abraham went and davened three times a day, or kept Kashruth or did any of these things. And in fact, we don't have really any evidence about what they would do. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: But for the biblical period, I looked at the biblical text and saw how the Bible relates to circumcision. So that was what I was able to do step by step by step by step, I would say almost to the annoyance of my classmates, who every time I was making a final presentation in class, it was, "Okay. Here we go. We're going to learn more about the biblical period and circumcision. Or we're going to hear more about pastoral care and circumcision. And we're going to hear more about texts about circumcision." So it sort of became an interest of mine, and like I said, a little bit treated as a minor in my rabbinical studies. Bryan Schwartzman: So just for some terms for our audience and for me too, I mean, circumcision, brit millah, are these terms interchangeable? Do they mean different things? Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: No, they're not. And that's a very good point. And that's really important to keep that in mind when you're having any sort of discussion. Circumcision is a procedure. The procedure involves removing parts or most of the foreskin. And brit millah is the ritual that really was not developed until ... We don't know if it was developed anywhere before the rabbinic period, in the first couple of hundreds of years after the turn of the millennial, the year zero. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: In the biblical period, there are certainly descriptions of circumcisions, but with not very much detail. And if you looked at those different descriptions, I would say with the possible exception of the first time that we get an indication that Abraham circumcised himself and his clan, and very specifically his eight day old son, that's the closest thing that we get to for a description of brit millah. And in fact, that was the model upon which the rabbis built their invention and their creation of brit millah, of a brit millah ceremony. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: The other term that we should bring in is the word bris. And bris is basically the Jewish Yiddish equivalent of brit millah. So those are the different terms that we're dealing with. There's bris, there is brit millah, and then there circumcision. And circumcision, again, is just the procedure. And brit millah is the ritual that includes the procedure. Bryan Schwartzman: So I guess I'm curious how you understand and relate to the brit millah, and if you have a sense of why so many non-Orthodox Jew continue to choose this for their sons. I think we're not, I would assume that the majority are not motivated by, or this idea that God is telling them to do it, so they must do it. So why are people still doing this in such large numbers? Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: Yes, I believe your assumption is correct. So I want to be clear that it's very difficult to get really good data on exactly what people are doing, and maybe even more clearly, more specifically why people are doing this. So your question is a great one. And it's one that I think about a lot. And I will tell you that most of my answer is based upon conversations that I've had with individuals and couples of parents who are speaking to me about this. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: I hesitate to use the word market niche, but I think that probably describes it. But the people who I serve, and actually who turn to me well in advance, and they have questions about circumcision. And the impression that I get is along the lines of what you sort of presumed and what you hinted. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: I think that there are very few current Jewish parents who circumcised their children and have a brit millah ceremony, because they feel that this is something that God commands. And they may not even be sure about the existence of God. But I think that the vast majority of people who do it and who carry on at least the circumcision part of it, they do it for a lack of a more elegant term because everybody else is and because that's what they do. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: Now, I will say that's what most Jews do. The idea of doing something that everybody else does can at first seem a little bit superficial. Why do something just because everybody else does it? God knows there are plenty of things that everybody else does that maybe we would like to stop or to think about more clearly. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: But in this case, I will say that it becomes a very tribal, not in a primitive sense, but tribal in a positive sense that it is something that is very bonding between us. And I actually think that is the strongest reason why most people continue to do this. And that I think gives the ritual, especially when it's done in a communal setting, a very powerful piece of emotions, and a powerful addition of feelings, and a sense of community, especially intergenerational. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And that's what I would guess is going through. And I don't know if it's going through the minds and the hearts of people. But that is one of the reasons why I think, the major reason, why circumcision continues to be a practice of most, if not the vast majority of Jews, and I would say around the world. Bryan Schwartzman: Can you walk us through a little bit what happens when you just arrive, and presumably you're back to arriving in somebody's home, or a function hall, and officiating a brit millah? How long are you there? What are the steps that happen? Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: Sure. I am going to take a step back because I think it's really important, especially as it relates to myself being a reconstructionist and a reconstructionist rabbi. Whenever I get a call when parents are in some stage of pregnancy, and they're asking about the possibility, and what it would mean, and what it's about, and any questions that they have, or they're just checking to see about my availability. What I always tell them is that the best thing for us to do is to have a conversation a couple of weeks before, before the due date. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And I like to do it two weeks before and have this conversation, because as I tell parents, especially if they are first time parents, that the first two weeks or the first week after a child is born is absolutely the wrong time for any human beings to be processing and to figure out and to make decisions. And so I very much encourage them to discuss what we've discussed in that conversation beforehand, and to basically have the ability, hours after they've given birth to a baby, they can say to themselves, "Okay. Remember we discussed that we wanted to do this? Well, I think I want to do that." Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And the reason I bring that up is, for me, I am not about performing and officiating at their brit millah in a way that I want to, that I feel needs to be, and that, yes, we must do this then, and we must do this here in this place., And we must do this with this prayer and that prayer. Instead, what I do, and I think this is a lot more typical with reconstructionist rabbis and with reconstructionist educators, is that I want to do this in a way that is most meaningful to them. And this is all within the context of making sure that it is a safe and quick procedure for the baby himself. Bryan Schwartzman: I have no recollection of what you actually said 11 or 12 years ago. But I just remember you were very patient and took a lot of time with us, a couple weeks before birth. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: Yeah. And I will say, look, I hesitate a little bit to be disparaging to other mohels. But I will say that one of the things that I learned about the way other mohels practice is a little bit opposite to that, is they're glad to hear from you beforehand. And they say whatever, and they say, "Okay. So let's talk when you have a healthy baby boy, and we say mazel tov, and then we'll start then." Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And I always push back against that because I think that in a sense, it's almost unfair, especially for first parents who haven't been through the birth of a child to expect them, at that point, to be able to make decisions. I always thought that it's a lot more fair, a lot more reasonable and a lot more productive to speak to them beforehand and to do that, and to let them know, "Here's the different things that you might want to consider and that you might want to discuss." Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And I very much encourage them to discuss it between two weeks before and when they're going to give birth to a child. I don't know how many of them do that. But at least it makes me feel better that I've given them the chance to do that. So that's correct. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And by the way, the other thing that I also tell anyone is that if they are ambivalent at all about circumcision at all, in other words, if one or both of the parents are really wondering whether or not they even want to circumcised their child, I tell them that that's a conversation that we should probably start immediately, just because that conversation takes a lot more to process, as opposed to a conversation about when they want to have their bris, or where they want to have their brit millah, or who they want to invite. Those are all questions that I think are fine to process a couple of weeks before. The decision about whether to either circumstance their child or not, that's a decision I think that takes a lot more thought and a lot more conversations. And so I recommend that those conversations start as soon as possible. Bryan Schwartzman: So I do want to get into it. And maybe we'll circle back and get more of a blow by blow account, if there's time. I mean, we are- Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: Do you want me to just give a very quick of what that looks like? Bryan Schwartzman: Sure, go ahead. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: So basically, what it looks like is I will arrive at the house about 15 or 20 minutes before we are scheduled to start. I will do my setup of my instruments and getting everything prepared for what I need to do. I'll usually check in with the parents, and they've have decided who are you giving sort of honorary roles, who are going to be recognized as serving this role or that role? Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: After 15, 20 minutes and allowing for, let's say, Jewish time for everybody to get there who the parents want to be there, we will then start the ceremony. The ceremony really does not take more than a half an hour total. There's about a 10 minute introduction with certain liturgy and prayers that are traditionally said. It takes about 10 minutes for the procedure from really start to finish. And I mean, start as in when I take the baby from the parents and start to put the baby down on the table, to the point where I'm picking up the baby after having completed the procedure. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: After, the last 10 minutes is actually not officially part of a brit millah, but an official announcement or pronouncement of the baby's Hebrew name is traditionally done at this point. And that maybe takes about 10 minutes. And when that's done, it's over. And then what I will usually do is I will dismiss everybody sort of to go have what is a strong tradition of having a festive meal as part of the celebration. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And while people are getting started, I'll clean up for myself, put my instruments together, and then meet with the parents and caretakers and the baby, and go over what should be proper aftercare of what they should expect over the next couple of days. And that's it. So that's what it looks like. Bryan Schwartzman: If you're enjoying this interview, please hit the subscribe button and be among the first to know when a new episode appears. If you're a new listener, welcome [foreign language 00:23:16]. Check out the back catalog for lots of other groundbreaking ... Check out the back catalog for lots of other groundbreaking conversation. And please take a minute to give us a five star rating or leave a review. Positive rating reviews really help other people find out about the show. Okay. Back to our interview with rabbi Kevin Bernstein. Bryan Schwartzman: So we're talking at a time where there's, I think, a small but growing effort to push to make sure that families, Jewish families, that don't choose to have their son's circumcised are included and embraced within Jewish life. And there's also, I think, a chorus of folks who care about Judaism, who are saying, "We should at least rethink this." Bryan Schwartzman: And there are all essays along that, along those lines. And we just interviewed one of the authors, Max Buckler, and also the author Gary Shteyngart, who's written about his own experiences getting circumcised as seven year old. I guess I wanted to get into some of the points and objections they've made as a way of really modeling discussion of a difficult topic. I guess I wanted to start with in your essay, you seem fairly convinced, or at least you seem unconvinced that a baby undergoes significant, emotional, physical trauma at the time or afterwards. Is that fair to say? And I guess what leads you to be reasonably confident about that? Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And I think that, first of all, I want to make it clear that, let's talk about the different things of trauma that you have brought up here. So first of all, I want to make it clear that, yes, it certainly is traumatic for the child. Anything where the child's response is to cry, we can say that there is some sort of trauma that's there. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: The difficulty that we have, and this is especially a difficulty with eight day old infants, and actually much beyond that as any parent will tell you, anyone who has raised infants, is to identify what the crying is about, what the trauma is about, and really the extent of the trauma. And I reject the notion that some mohelim have gone to say that it's painless, or that this actually makes the child feel better. The only way that we can really judge what the child's experience is by seeing the child, and being in the room, and seeing what the child's response is. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And yes, it is, it is there and it is traumatic. And we can do lots of things to try to make it less traumatic. And by the way, one way we can make the circumcision less traumatic is by giving a local injectable anesthetic so that the child is completely numb in his entire genital area. Well, that's fine, except anyone who has seen this injection of anesthetic given to a child sees that that's traumatic. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And so many mohelim have decided that the trade off between one trauma and another isn't severe enough that they decide, okay, so let's do this and this way. And in fact, the board, the College Of Pediatricians in the United States have indicated that circumcision is an elective procedure, and there are very little downsides of doing it or not doing it, and therefore it's elective. But they have indicated that some type of anesthetic should be used to try to minimize the amount of trauma to the child. So that's the first thing in terms of the physical trauma. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: The other thing that you mentioned, and I will tell you where I'm coming from, is the degree to which this trauma is remembered either through dreams or through later thoughts or later emotional difficulties. And I will say that most of my feeling about that is basically based upon, I don't know if it's hundreds, or it might be thousands of circumcised males who I know and have spoken to who do not relate to remembering anything, feeling that was a trauma for them. And that is where that really comes from. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And this is also backed up by psychological research that this not is not a major source of emotional difficulty or emotional trauma for adults in terms of having remembered that feeling or whatever trauma they went through. And again, I want to emphasize, I am not saying that there are not others who have had different experiences. That is understandable and perhaps I feel and I sympathize for those people. But I do believe that it is very, very uncommon for people to remember pretty much anything when they were at the age of eight days old, and even quite older. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And that comes in a little bit to part of my practice also in terms of [foreign language 00:29:35]. And I guess I'll give that. If you want, I can go on a little bit more about what that is. But it comes down to the ages that I recommend or recommend against parents dealing with any part of this circumcision or brit millah, or this other procedure that basically replaces the brit millah in kids who were circumcised earlier in their life, but wanted to complete it with a Jewish ritual. And that rituals called [foreign language 00:30:11], which I'd be glad to talk about a little bit more, if you want me to. Bryan Schwartzman: I don't even know what it means. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: So here's what it is. [foreign language 00:30:19] means literally a drop of blood. [foreign language 00:30:24] is the ritual and procedure that is done for anyone who was circumcised earlier in their life, but wants to add this to the [foreign language 00:30:42], to the commandment that they are doing, that they weren't just circumcised. And in most cases, they were not circumcised in a way for them to become Jews. But now they want to become Jews or complete this [foreign language 00:30:59] for any other reason. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: What it involves, and this is where it has an unfortunate name, and I'll explain why, it involves drawing even the smallest amount of blood from the area on the penis, where the circumcision occurred earlier. It's the scar of where the four skin was removed. And the reason I say that it is not very aptly or accurately named is because it is a very, very minor procedure. I would have to say that it is painless. And that is judging by the number of the vast majority ... All of the people for whom I have performed this on, their first reaction after I have done this is, "Did you do it yet?" Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: So the thing that I'm going to relate back to in terms of the memory and trauma is that to parents who have a young child who they are considering having this [foreign language 00:32:06] procedure done because they would like to do that in a more observant way, I strongly recommend that they do not consider doing this between the age of three and 16. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And the reason I say that is because I believe it's very, very difficult to judge children of that age, what they're thinking and what they're feeling. And I tend to prefer that they wait till a time where they can be sure that the child is not experiencing it as this strange man came and did something to my ... Who I had never met before and did something to my genitals. I think that is a little bit too fraught with other kinds of possibilities. So I recommend strongly against doing that during those ages. And to get back to my original point is before three years old, quite frankly, I don't think the kids remember it. Bryan Schwartzman: Quick timeout. Are you inspired, enlightened, want to hit share on this conversation? Want to make sure there are more of them? If you'd like to support these groundbreaking conversations of Evolve on the podcast, the website, we have web conversations, you can click donate and support us, make a statement about your values, the importance of covenantal conversation, as we like to say. Every gift matters. There's a donate link right in our show notes. Thank you for listening, and thank you for your support. Okay, back to our regularly scheduled programming. Bryan Schwartzman: I want to take us back a little bit to one of the points raised by our previous guest Max Buckler, which I have to say I've wrestled with a little bit. It's not a question of Jewish law. It's a question of as our societal attitudes towards gender are evolving and expanding, does this procedure really celebrate, prioritize, or procedure, ceremony, ritual, does it celebrate and prioritize maleness? Is there a way to reconstruct it so it doesn't do that? I mean, I'm wondering what you thought of it. I mean, it was referred to, I think, on the show, in a sense, a big gender reveal party, which maybe not all of us are comfortable with. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: Yeah. So first of all, the answer is absolutely, yes, in terms of it certainly prioritizes males. It was invented and it was formulated and created certainly by men who were getting together and deciding how they were going to celebrate or induct, I would say, new Jewish men into the Jewish fold. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: So without a doubt, that is the case. And I will say in the same way that Jewish prayer was modeled and created as something that Jewish men were going to partake in, with the understanding and what they thought was a release that they said, "Well, Jewish women don't have to worry about prayer because it is time bound. And so that's not a big [crosstalk 00:36:02], a commandment for them. They need to be concerned about other things," et cetera. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: So yes, that was the case. And I think that still is the case. And as someone who grew up and had kids who, for instance, my grandparents and some of my parents would say things like, "Well, we'll come in if there's a brit. But if it's just a daughter that's born, we're not going to make a special trip from Israel to come visit you," et cetera. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: So yes, that was definitely the case. I would hope and I think that's much less the case now, but it is one of the burdens and one of the challenges with doing this, with doing this ritual. And there have been plenty of attempts, with different amounts of success, to sort of create anequal or different or parallel ritual to welcome Jewish daughters into the fold also. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And I understand and I recognize that they may be separate, but are they equal? I don't know. I think that depends a lot on how we relate to it and much less on whether earlier generations related to it. And I will say, I don't know if we are ... No, I will say, I don't think that we are done with relating to this challenge about how we can make this so this isn't perceived or felt as preferential. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: One of the ways that I look at it is that, look, if this is something that we know is problematic, so perhaps instead of looking at it as preferential for a boy, we might say, this is challenging. And so you know what? Let's just do this for half of our babies. And the half that we will do happens to be boys, because it certainly makes a lot more sense. And it's a lot more palatable for us to do this for our boys than to do it for our girls. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And I think that to the degree to which we prefer or prioritize or privilege this as something that is done for males, that's sort of on us in terms of how we relate to it. And I will say that I believe that that is decreasing. I'm not sure if the degree of sexism that still remains and will remain in Judaism is related very strongly to, or because we circumcised boys at a ritual. I would think that it's more of a symptom of some of that racism, excuse me, some of that sexism that we might have had in previous years. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: So that's sort of the way I look at it. And I'm not sure if this is one of the bigger issues. I think the bigger issue that we have is performing an elective procedure on our children, and what the consequences and risks of that are as opposed to maintaining a tradition that we've had for thousands of years. Bryan Schwartzman: It seems to me that statistics are always fungible, but on circumcision can be hard to come by. I mean, to the extent you can talk about it in your experience, I mean, do complications ever come up from the procedure? Is it extremely rare? I mean, you've done enough of them. I'm sure you've seen the gamut at this point. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: Yes complications certainly do come up. Most of them are extremely minor. And what do I mean by really minor? I will say that minor in terms of they may require additional help or procedure done again without anesthetic by a mohel or by a pediatrician. And that I would say is the most common of the complications. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: Even less common than that is where the foreskin isn't either properly or completely removed, and it is in a way or to the extent that one needs to wait until the child can undergo general anesthesia. And this would be done by, for instance, a urologist. Again, that is even more rare than that. And the procedure and the statistics I've seen is that is less than 1% to 2% that occurs. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And again, that is something that has to wait to be resolved. And the thing that I have never heard is where there is something that permanently damages the penis or any part of the genitalia to that extent. So I have never heard of that occurring among colleagues in the Jewish community- Bryan Schwartzman: With an infant, right? Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: Yes. Bryan Schwartzman: Because on an older child or an adult, that's probably a different story. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: I'm not sure if that percentage is a different story, actually. you're right. You're right that it's not that it's never. But my guess is that it is also before that. And what we were speaking about were mohelim. And again, I do not know a mohel, unless he happens also or he or she happens to be a urologist, that would attempt or do a circumcision on a child, any human being, who is older than six to three months old. So you were asking about mohelim in kids of that age, I assumed. Beyond that, it really needs to be and should be done by a physician and a certified surgeon. Bryan Schwartzman: So I think I wanted to pack a couple of questions into one and really go a little deeper into a reconstructionist approach to circumcision. I mean, you joked you minored in it at the reconstructionist rabbinical college. I mean, my sense is that if circumcision didn't exist today, there wouldn't be an obvious need for it. Although that could be wrong, we might. It might perform a sociological function, a sort of way of bringing people together and marking time that nothing else quite does. Bryan Schwartzman: But my sense is that's not how reconstructing Judaism works. It doesn't ask would we invent this if didn't exist? It's it sort of says, is the way we look at this meaningful? And if not, how can we reexamine it to making meaningful? And only really in very rare cases does traditional reconstructionist thought say this traditional Jewish ritual has no merit. Let's stop doing it. So I guess I was wondering if you could take us through at least a reconstructionist approach to circumcision, and some of the thought process behind that, if that makes sense. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: Yeah, no, it does. And by the way, I think that we do, we do have a reconstructionist approach to this. And I'll tell you what I mean by that. I say, first of all, we think about it. We think about it. We study about it. We weigh pros and cons. We think about what this does for us, what this provides for us. And perhaps maybe one of the most important things is the phrase that we use, that our path and our heritage gets a vote, but not a veto. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And we do take into account the fact that for this has been part of our tradition, part of what we have done, part of what we feel sort of in our [foreign language 00:45:12], in our guts that we're supposed to do because we're Jews. And we take this into account. But under no circumstances, do we say, "Oh! We have to keep this because it's what our generations did, or because it's part of Jewish law," because it is part of Jewish law. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And whenever we come across something that might be uncomfortable, or we don't like it, or we're not comfortable with it, or we find it ethically or morally, or for any number of reasons, something that bothers us and that we're not comfortable with, we consider what we might do and what we might not do about it. And the same thing goes for many of our traditions, whether it's praying separated by gender, with the [foreign language 00:46:07], whether it is different forms of kashrut, that some of the things that we do and that we don't do, or even the evaluation of kashrut, even the way that we slaughter animals, all of these things are things that come into question. And I think as reconstructionists, we think about them, we study them, and then we make a decision for ourselves as to what we are going to do with in mind giving our traditions and Jewish law a vote, but not a veto. Bryan Schwartzman: I mean, it's hard to quantify, but if you read everything from tablet, to JATA, to the forward, there does seem to be a growing volume of Jewish questioning and criticism of the rite of circumcision. And I'm wondering how you react to that. Is it, "Oh, good. They're thinking about it. They're questioning this." Or do you react in a different way? And I guess I could leave it there. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: Great. That's a great question. And by the way, it doesn't matter in terms of my reaction, but I will disagree your premise. Having been keeping an eye on this for 15 years, for at least 15 or 20 years since I started rabbinical school, my impression is that no, it's not growing. I get more the impression that there is a constant, but pretty level amount of pushback. That would be more of my impression. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And like you say, it's very difficult to see whether it's growing or not. But regardless, I would have the same reaction. And I want to preface the reaction by quoting one of my dearest colleagues who said to me that I'm probably one of the most anti circumcision mohels who she knows. And the reason that she said that is not because I'm anti circumcision, but that I understand people's ambivalence with it. And I understand where they're coming from. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And I would actually say that I don't see my role as promoting circumcision. I think that if a thousand years from now, or a hundred years from now, or 50 years from now, we're not having the brit millah ceremony, I would say that I think we've lost something. But I will also say that to the extent that we have thought about it, and especially if we think that it will provide for whatever we do instead, or perhaps if we do nothing instead, if we think, if the Jewish community and Jewish people think that will provide an easier or better or a meaningful way for people to engage in their Judaism, then I think that's great. And I'm all for that. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And by the way, in a certain sense, I do see this happening even now. And what I mean by a certain sense is that I don't get the impression that less and less people are circumcising their sons are, having their sons circumcised. But what I do perceive is that less and less people are feeling like they want to mark that with a brit millah ceremony. And especially, I would put it in this terms, in this way, okay, we're all right with circumcising, but really? You want us to have a party? You're suggesting that we have a party around it? Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And I think there's a lot of that feeling. And one of the things that Jewish people and future generations will need to decide is, okay, so if one of the reasons why you're circumcising your child is because you want to be part of the Jewish people, and by the way, I can't think of any other reasons why that they might want to do that. So do we want to include some sort of ritual that we could do, that we could add this to this, perhaps something else or additional that we will do to daughters to also keep them in the fold? And I think that's great, if and when people are thinking about those things and move forward with that. Bryan Schwartzman: So along those lines, I think we're about out of time. So I wanted to close just by following up and asking about your role. What is most satisfying about this? Is it walking scared and confused parents through a difficult time? Is it sort of being a link in a Jewish chain? As a rabbi who's performed all kinds of rituals and ceremonies, there must be something about this that draws you back beyond just the fact you have the skills to do it. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: Yes, great. It's a great question. So one of my daughters used to describe class A fun and class B fun. So I will say class A, I won't use the word fun, but enjoyment and appreciation of what I really, really like, and I will tell you that. So class A enjoyment for me is, and this is somewhat rare, but it is helping a couple with a bris where they are both and their families are deeply engaged in Judaism, and they really want to, and they're really on board. And I almost only have to provide the surgical procedure because the family or families that are there are able to sing some and to support each other and know what's going on, et cetera, et cetera. So that's always fun. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: But I will say that is a little bit rare. And more so of the, what I would call, class B, which is a little bit less enjoyable for me, but to the extent that this happens much, much, much more often. So the quantity of experiences that I've had really leave me with a very, very strong feeling. And that is that when I leave the bris, I feel as if I have helped these parents engage in the very, very early part of their Jewish parenting in a positive way, that they haven't felt like some guy came in here and did some procedure and charged me a lot of money, and he didn't seem to care about what my experience was. He didn't seem to care about if I understood it. He didn't seem to care about anything, but just came in and did something that was important to him. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And instead, I get a really, really good feeling when, for instance, grandparents of another faith will come up to me and say, "Thank you for doing it in a way that I really felt included." When gay and lesbian couples, or gay and lesbian individuals will say to me afterwards that they really appreciated that they felt included, and they felt engaged by me in spite of the fact that they felt like that outside some other mohel or some other rabbi would not have engaged with them as seriously because of a lack of inclusivity. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: And that's what I get out of this. And that's the joy that I get out of having helped families under very adverse conditions. Remember where families are, remember where parents are a week after they've given birth. And to leave their brit millah after having them felt like it was a positive experience for them, it feels great. Bryan Schwartzman: Kevin, thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us, to write the essay, to peel back the curtain a little bit and also engage with some of the critical questions. I think this was a real service, and I certainly hope future parents listen and it provides some insight. So I really thank you. Rabbi Kevin Bernstein: You are very welcome. It's always a pleasure. Bryan Schwartzman: Thanks so much for listening to our interview with Rabbi Kevin Bernstein. Next month, we will be out of circumcision and into a new topic. And I guess after all this, looking forward to switching gears. So what you think of today's episode? I'd love to hear from you. Evolve is about meaningful conversations, and you're a part of that. Send me your questions, comments, feedback, whatever you have. You can reach me at bschwartzman@reconstructingjudaism.org. Bryan Schwartzman: Evolve: Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations is executive produced by Rabbi Jacob Staub, and edited by Sam Walks. Our theme song, Ilu Finu is by Rabbi Miriam. Margles. This show is a production of Reconstructing Judaism. I'm your host, Bryan Schwartzman, and I will see you next time. (Singing).