Jack Wertheimer: This is not a zero-sum game. Support is needed both by the legacy institutions, which have a lot to offer, and clearly by these startups, which also have a lot to offer. Bryan S.: From the recording studios of Reconstructing Judaism, this is Trending Jewish with Rachael Burgess. Rachael Burgess: And Bryan Schwartzman. Bryan S.: I don't know why we do that. Rachael Burgess: You can be Rachael for a while. It's fine. Bryan S.: All right. I can try it. I definitely do voices when I read to my read to my kids at night, although they don't always like it. Rachael Burgess: They don't always appreciate your talents and dramatics. Bryan S.: Talent is going a bit too far. So, yep, you can still find us all the same ways, iTunes, Google Play, Overcast, Castro. I've never used Castro. Did you ever use Castro? Rachael Burgess: I don't. I just use ... I have an iPhone. Bryan S.: We love you Castro though. And if you like what you hear today or any other day, don't be shy, you can feel free to support our work on Trending Jewish and Reconstructing Judaism at www.reconstructingjudaism.org/donate. Right? Rachael Burgess: Yeah, you did it. You are now a fundraiser. Bryan S.: That is. I've crossed over the- Rachael Burgess: You've crossed the threshold- Bryan S.: The Rubicon? Rachael Burgess: Yes. So we've got a great episode for you today. And for Bryan, this was a blast. Bryan S.: This was kind of fun because I got take my co-host Rachael with me back in time to grad school to meet my old professor. That was kind of fun. I got accused of having a late paper, but I- Rachael Burgess: Yeah, that's pretty late by now, right? Bryan S.: 15 years. I attest I did turn them in, but it was fun having a chance to revisit Dr. Jack Wertheimer, who is definitely very vocal out in the Jewish press, but was certainly a mentor to me, who kind of helped somebody without much more than a bar mitzvah education really understand the modern Jewish landscape. So I don't know. What did you think? Rachael Burgess: It was one of the things I think that we touch on quite a bit in our podcast is basically what is happening in the Jewish world. And if there is a person to talk to about what is happening, somebody who really has their finger to the pulse, of especially the American Jewish life, that is definitely Dr. Wertheimer. We got to delve into a lot of those topics between emerging communities, the divides, polarization and what that does to the Jewish community and he really just took a very in-depth look about what is going on in the Jewish world, which is what I'm interested in and one of the reasons why we started doing this podcast. Rachael Burgess: It was really just a pleasure talking to one of the leading experts in this particular topic. And his book, which is out now, you can purchase it now, is _The New American Judaism: How Jews Practice Their Religion Today._ Bryan S.: Yeah, that kind of seems like just really in line with the themes of our show, which is why we invited him to come on. I know how much our audience loves just listening to Rachael and I banter, but why not ... Let's just do it. Rachael Burgess: Let's just dive in. Bryan S.: Let's dive in today. So we have got Dr. Jack Wertheimer. As I said, my former professor at the Jewish Theological Seminary. He is the author of The New American Judaism: How Jews Practice Their Religion Today. He is a professor of American Jewish History at the Jewish Theological Seminary and his area of specialization is modern Jewish history, focus[ing] on trends in the religious, educational and organizational sectors of American Jewish life. Bryan S.: He is the author of too many books to list here, scholarly articles, studies, and a lot of pieces in the popular Jewish media, which may be how our audience is most familiar with him. Most recently he's written a number of studies about the rapidly evolving field of Jewish education. And from 1997 to 2007, Dr. Wertheimer served as the Provost of JTS. So welcome to Trending Jewish, Dr. Wertheimer. We're thrilled to have you here. Jack Wertheimer: Thank you. I'm delighted to be with you. Bryan S.: So we're here primarily to talk about your probing, really interesting new book. The New American Judaism. I want to start by asking, you've sort of -- as a historian, you've sort of touched on the broad scope of the American Jewish community, the organized American Jewish community. I'm really curious why or how you came upon the idea to approach the topic that you did, the slice of the American Jewish experience that you did and also how you decided to approach it, because it could have been approached 100 different ways. You could have spent a weekend as Shabbat in a different place every weekend. I'm sure your family would have loved that. So I guess the why and how I'm really interested in. Jack Wertheimer: Sure. I'm happy to address that. A good part of it actually comes down to my own personal experience. I published a book that appeared 25 years ago called A People Divided: Judaism in Contemporary America. And as I thought about that book 15, 18 years after it appeared, I realized that if I were to try to revisit that topic, I couldn't just write an epilogue to that book, that an entirely different book needs to be written because the Jewish religious scene looks so different today than it did in the past. At that point I thought to myself well, why not go for it? Jack Wertheimer: As to why I'm interested specifically in American Jewish religious life, it has been an interest of mine. I just mentioned an earlier book that I wrote on that topic, but also for a more, I don't know, substantive side, I would add that an argument that I make for the end of the introduction to this book and that is from everything that I know, the greatest determinant of the American Jewish future, leaving aside antisemitism and the way in which Jews are treated, will revolve around their relationship to Jewish religious life. Jack Wertheimer: I say that not to denigrate secular Jewish life, for example, Jewish culture, Jewish ethnicity. I value them, but from all the indications we have from many years of survey research, for example, what we know is that the connection that people have to Jewish religious life seems to be the sturdiest. It's not a guarantee of Jewish continuity, but it is indicative of a kind of vitality and sense of connection and most important of all, something that can be transmitted. Not in all cases. So that's why I focused on religion. Jack Wertheimer: As to the approach that I took, which was the second question that you posed. My earlier book, A People Divided focused very much, though certainly not exclusively, on the various denominations. And I had a chapter on each of the major denominations including, I should say, a chapter on Reconstructionism. And what I realized was that in writing that book I captured some very important developments, but I also missed what I think are much more important, but I'll call subterranean developments, developments that were occurring beneath the surface that really have shaped American Jewish life much more profoundly than perhaps the pronouncements of this movement or that movement, this rabbi of that rabbi, the debates between rabbis. Jack Wertheimer: To what extent do those really affect the day-to-day lives of American Jews, let alone their religious lives?" So I became much more interested in trying to capture how this plays out for in "the average Jew", "the ordinary Jew" as opposed to the elites and what they're thinking and what they're saying. Now, I know that I can be challenged and I've challenged myself on this, "but if that's really what interests you Jack, then why didn't you interview 500 or 1,000, 2,000, you name the number of American Jews and ask them about what their attitudes are about religion, how they relate to religion." Jack Wertheimer: And very simply there was a question here of feasibility, of time that I'd need to invest --it takes a lot of time to interview people, let alone hundreds of them. It also takes a lot of money, would require a lot of travel potentially. So I came up with an alternative approach, which is not necessarily the definitive one, of interviewing rabbis and significant observers of American Jewish life. Rabbis across the spectrum. I did speak with Reconstructionism rabbis. Jack Wertheimer: I spoke with rabbis, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, nondenominational rabbis as well to hear them report not so much about what they think their Jews ought to be doing, but rather their sense of what is happening in the lives of the Jews they encounter, what's important to them? When do they turn to the synagogue? When do they come to the rabbi with questions? And their perceptions of how religion -- that is the perceptions of these rabbis and other observers -- of how religion figures into the lives of ordinary Jews. Jack Wertheimer: I found that the people whom I interviewed were remarkably candid with me, I felt, not trying to sugarcoat. They're not seeing things through rose-colored glasses, but rather telling things the way they saw it. Rachael Burgess: One question I had for you, especially going through your book is it seems like I've heard this part of American Jewish history, the part that we're living in right now. It's not history yet, but this present moment is a very crucial time for the Jewish community, and you bring up different things that Jewish communities are doing where people are gathering for Kabbalat Shabbat services out of Burning Man gathering or you also mentioned gathering for services during a marathon, but you also bring up that there are a lot of challenges that are going on in the Jewish community. Is this a good time for the Jewish community or is there a problem that isn't quite being addressed. Jack Wertheimer: Is it a good time? I think the preponderance of opinion based upon a lot of research that we have is that the American Jewish community is going through a major transition at best. Is that transition going to lead to a new positive phase? You don't really know the answer to that yet, but there's been a lot of writing, including by me, about some of the evidence we have of negative trends, of indifference, of people checking out in one way or another. Jack Wertheimer: In this book I decided that I was much more interested in writing about those Jews who are in some way connecting with Jewish religious life in the United States rather than focusing on the data that we have about those who are checking out, the so-called nones, N-O-N-E-S, that the Pew study refers to for example. And I'm not suggesting, I don't suggest in the book that these populations don't exist. They certainly do. They're important, they ought to be paid attention to, but in this book, I was interested in what it is that those Jews who are engaged do and what's their level of engagement. Jack Wertheimer: And of course, it varies greatly, which is why I try to cover the spectrum. And it varies not only, as you pointed out, not only in terms of what I referred to in the book as more conventional settings for Jewish religious expression such as synagogues, but also we find it in unconventional spaces, whether those unconventional spaces are havurot, which have become more conventional given their long history now or whether it's various types of religious observance, ritual observance in unexpected places, bars for example, pubs, or as you mentioned, the Burning Man or other sites that we might not expect to find it in. I wanted to try to capture this as well, this whole phenomenon as well. Jack Wertheimer: As to the question of whether the Jewish leadership is addressing the challenges adequately, here I come at a different place than do many critics. I'm not bashful about criticism and I never have been, but what disturbs me is that the focus tends to be on what I'll call the supply side as opposed to the demand side. What I mean by that is what is it that synagogues are providing? Are they good enough? Are they stimulating enough? Are the rabbis reaching the population? Jack Wertheimer: And those are important questions clearly, but there's another question to be asked and that is, what is the quality of the Jewishness of ordinary Jews, the range of ordinary Jews, their level of knowledge, their level of interest, how accessible are they really, how open are they? And I'm interested in both of these dimensions. So, yes, we have to think about whether Jewish leaders of various sorts, especially rabbinical leaders and cantors and the like are connecting with the larger population of Jews, but we also have to ask about how open many Jews are to be connected with, and that complicates the story considerably. Bryan S.: I think to really get into it, I think we have to understand some of the trends you identified in the book and why you think they are significant. The way I read it, you identified three really interesting trends, which [were] synagogue revitalization or attempts to revitalize the worship service in traditional synagogues, Orthodox Outreach and the emergence of Judaism in unconventional spaces. I think you list a term for it that I'm not recalling. Are those- Jack Wertheimer: No, that was the term I used, yes. Bryan S.: I mean, are those what you saw as some of the most interesting noteworthy trends and why do you think they're different and interesting and important for sort of the larger questions where we're trying to grapple with? Jack Wertheimer: Right. So just to take a step back for a moment, the book consists of three sections. The first section is my attempt to capture the religious lives and experiences of ordinary Jews across the spectrum and what do we know about that. We have some data about that in survey form. We have other kinds of research that's been done, that would indicate where Jews are and what Judaism means in their lives. Jack Wertheimer: In the second section I focus specifically on the various denominations and what's been happening in those denominations, less from the perspective of their pronouncements about what the people ought to be doing than the challenges that each faces, none of them is in necessarily in terrific shape at one point. I use it as a metaphor that I came across actually decades ago in an article that referred to the denominations as leaky vessels. They are vessels, they do contain things, but they're springing leaks. Jack Wertheimer: In the third section, I write about the things that you just mentioned, Bryan, and that is those areas where we find the most evidence of revitalization at work. And a lot of this clearly stems from the initiative of Jewish leaders, rabbis in particular, who are involved for example in rethinking the synagogue religious services along with cantors or musical directors or whatever they happen to be called, people who are involved in the musical side of the prayer service. Jack Wertheimer: And there've been enormous changes. People who still see the synagogue today as it was in the 1950s and 1960s are missing the boat. While there may be some synagogues that still are like that, the vast majority, especially the more successful ones have moved on and they've gotten much more concerned about what they refer to as the choreography of religious service, about the place of music, about the place of spirituality, of meditation, of connecting with people, of building community, a religious community within their buildings. Jack Wertheimer: The second section deals with Orthodox outreach, which is a phenomenon that has exploded over the course of the past two decades. It started clearly before that. It started already in the '50s, but it has really taken off in the last few decades, enormous investment on the part of Orthodox Jews of different types in outreach activities. And what I want to stress about that is that while some of these activities are perceived as a direct challenge, threat, competition to conventional synagogues, there are many people who belong to those synagogues, who also go to Chabad for example for a class or for a particular program. Jack Wertheimer: We're finding that people are not confining themselves to boxes: "I'm in the Reconstructionist box, therefore I want nothing to do with any other kind of synagogue or any other place." "I'm a Conservative Jew and therefore I only will step foot in a Conservative synagogue." There's less of that that's happening and for that reason I see these Orthodox Outreach activities as nourishing Jews across the spectrum. Jack Wertheimer: And the third area that I emphasize has to do, again, with these unconventional spaces. Especially innovative rabbis who are going out and trying to meet people where they are and run -- whether they're religious services or study programs in unconventional spaces. They will meet, I mentioned pubs before. They will meet in a bowling alley, for example for a High Holiday service. They will meet in warehouses, in bookstores and they will try to meet people and they position themselves especially in a week like this, the week of Hanukkah, they'll position themselves in supermarkets and try to talk to people and see whether they can connect with them in some way. Jack Wertheimer: So again, I realize that a lot of what I've just described is a kind of top-down phenomenon of leaders who are trying to reach out, but we also know that they're attracting significant numbers of Jews who might not otherwise connect with any aspect of Jewish religious life. Jack Wertheimer: I'll just give one other example of this, OneTable, which offers a free Friday night meal. That's especially designed to attract singles of the Millennial generation, younger couples and enable them to have the experience of a Friday night Shabbat meal with some ritual elements included -- Kiddush, Hamotzi, things of that sort, and then open a conversation about what being Jewish means to me. Bryan S.: I have so many questions based on what you just said. We'll probably run out of time before I get to them all. I'm really struck. I mean, you had the unique opportunity to speak to Jewish leaders, ranging ... I think you spoke to some folks from the Satmar Hasidic sect if I recall all the way to- Jack Wertheimer: Yes. Bryan S.: ... to Jewish Renewal rabbis, secular ... I think there were a few secular humanist rabbis in there. Certainly Reconstructionist leaders were well represented. I mean, you referenced a famous essay from the '80s by Rabbi Yitz Greenberg: looking ahead, will Jews be one people in the year 2000. I mean, in the year 2018, speaking to all these different voices, did you have, if not a historical take, a visceral gut take? Asre all these people you spoke to involved in the same enterprise or are we really Jewish peoples at this point? I know that's a big question, but I'm wondering if this provided any insight into that? Jack Wertheimer: Right. Well, it's certainly no secret that American Jews are highly polarized, no less than American society at large is highly polarized. And I did not in fact write a good deal about politics in this book for a variety of reasons, including the fact that the book was basically completed even before the last election results were in, let alone some of the developments since then. But we know that Jews are polarized about other kinds of issues too. There is some polarization around Israel, for example, and I certainly include that in my discussion. Jack Wertheimer: But what's conventionally said is that the great divide in American Jewish religious life is between the Orthodox and everybody else. And there is some truth to that, especially because we see a good deal of boundary crossing between those in the "everything else" category. I mentioned this just a moment ago, that there are people who will attend Reconstructionist synagogue or havurah or a Reform temple or a Conservative synagogue, and they will also make their way to a Chabad on occasion. Jack Wertheimer: And they'll make their way to some other kind of Orthodox outreach educational program, or they may attend something called SVARA, which is a learning -- Talmud learning center in the Chicago area that bills itself as presenting Talmudic learning from a queer perspective. And so the point is that they will move in and out and not limit themselves to one place or another. That doesn't necessarily mean that we're a terribly divided people, because those people simply don't want to be placed in a box, but they are connected, which leads me to saying that there is another great divide that we don't really want to acknowledge because we don't want to believe it. Jack Wertheimer: And that is there's a divide between those Jews who are involved, engaged, interested in Jewish religious life and beyond that in Jewish life in general, and those who are becoming increasingly indifferent. We don't want to acknowledge that because we don't want to write anybody off. And if anybody promotes this notion of not writing off any Jew, it is Chabad as an example, but certainly that's true of the other movements who struggle to be inclusive and struggle to be welcoming. Jack Wertheimer: But that said, and as I said before, we don't want to give up on any Jews, but let's also understand that we are living in a time in which there are Jews who are spinning away from Jewish life and don't seem to be interested in any aspect of it. And my question is, to what extent can they really be attracted back? So that's another kind of division that does exist. Jack Wertheimer: Are we still one people? Today that revolves a lot around questions of Israel and connection to Israel, and also the sense of connection that these two big blocs that I referred to, the non-Orthodox and the Orthodox, are prepared to interact with each other. And interestingly, on that note I find that ... I did after all I write a book called A People Divided and I expressed deep concern about that. I took off from the Yitz Greenberg article that you alluded to, Bryan. Jack Wertheimer: But in some ways I find that those lines are blurring much more today in part because Orthodox Jews are far less anxious and far more secure and therefore feel they can interact with much greater confidence with non-Orthodox Jews. Bryan S.: I guess you mentioned the folks that aren't involved. Did your research give you any sense of whether all this effort, all this innovation is moving the needle in any sense? Jack Wertheimer: That is -- I was going to say the $64,000 question, but I've learned from my students that they don't have a clue as to what that means because they never heard of the game show, but it's more than $64,000 obviously at this point that's involved. I do for example, when I in the chapter that I wrote about synagogue renewal efforts, I try to capture these various activities and the areas in which efforts are being made, but at the end of that chapter, I also note that we've been living now for a good 20, 25 years of synagogue renewal efforts. Jack Wertheimer: And the truth is, according to survey research, that the population of Jews who rarely if ever step foot into a synagogue is growing despite those renewal efforts. What we are seeing is that there are more Jews who are coming with greater frequency to synagogue, but those Jews who are the least frequent attenders, they continue to be the least frequent and if anything, their proportions are going up. So when you ask about moving the needle, I think this is very much a retail enterprise rather than the wholesale enterprise, by which I mean ... Jack Wertheimer: I'm using business terminology regarding religion and maybe that's not appropriate, but basically to try to reach people involves building relationships with individuals, that is a slow process and we don't have evidence yet of a major transformation in the works. Jack Wertheimer: I should just add one little footnote here and that is, I happened to be teaching a class yesterday and one of my students said, "But what about the uptick in antisemitism in America? Is that going to force Jews to kind of rethink and perhaps throw them back upon their heritage?" At this point, we really don't know. We certainly know that in the week after the terrible events in Pittsburgh, there were more Jews who attended synagogue, but I think the drop-off occurred two weeks afterwards already. Rachael Burgess: Going back to something that you said a little bit earlier where you were talking about the two groups that were really almost afraid to talk about, but I think in some other research that you've done, it seems like philanthropically we're trying to see if we can close that gap between the nones and the engaged Jews because in a previous article I had read of yours from the Jewish Review of Books, you're talking about how philanthropic dollars are increasing for more of these emerging communities. So are we seeing that question sort of being addressed now if people are [more] willing to throw support at emerging communities than current institutions. And what does that mean for our current institutions? Jack Wertheimer: Okay. Okay. So you certainly are correct in noting that what I refer to as engagement programs, efforts to engage people perhaps just episodically, every once in a while, people who have no other connection, and try to get them to participate a little bit more frequently -- those types of programs are receiving funding and are attracting funders who are especially interested in younger Jews, all the hand-wringing, as you know, revolves around the millennials and there is investment that's being made there. I alluded to OneTable as an example. Jack Wertheimer: The spread, the phenomenal spread, spread of Moishe Houses around the world in fact is another expression of that there are various kinds of programs, Honeymoon Israel and other programs, to bring younger Jews, younger couples, married couples, not-married couples to Israel as a kind of Birthright experience of their own. So yes, there is investment being made and I'm glad you raised this because I didn't want to suggest, and I used the term before that we're not writing people off, we don't want to write any Jews off. The question is to what extent do we accept that there are going to be some populations that don't want to be reached, and that makes it much more difficult clearly. But there is investment going into those programs. Jack Wertheimer: And the other part of your question is one that concerns me a great deal, and that is, I have done research on funders and I've spoken with funders and their general tendency, especially the larger foundations, is to invest in the new, the innovative initiatives that are fresh. And they look, they frown upon the so-called legacy institutions. Believe it or not, The Recon College is a legacy institution. Where I teach at JTS, that's a legacy institution, as is the Hebrew Union College. Synagogues are legacy institutions for the most part. Jack Wertheimer: And yet, the large majority, the overwhelming majority of Jews who are involved in Jewish life and certainly those who are involved in Jewish religious life do make their way into synagogues, into these legacy institutions and it's been troubling to me that there isn't an understanding that this is not a zero-sum game. That support is needed both by the legacy institutions, which have a lot to offer and clearly by these the startups, which also have a lot to offer. Jack Wertheimer: These episodic engagement activities will only work or have success in my view if they succeed in drawing people into much more frequent engagement, much more frequent participation, including eventually drawing them into synagogues of various sorts and other settings of study for example and religious experience. Bryan S.: One thing I was really curious about: rightly or wrongly I think you're sort of seen in the Jewish space as something of a traditionalist advocating more of a communal approach than an individual autonomy approach. You can certainly feel free to correct that. I was wondering if in exploring, especially in the non-Orthodox settings in this synagogue revival in the alternative spaces, if you encountered anything that really felt like, yeah, this really works or this is really meaningful or maybe changed or deepened some of the perspective that you have. Jack Wertheimer: That certainly has been the case, yes. On the most basic level, what was striking to me and to be honest with you, moving to me, were these conversations with rabbis of different types about both their sobriety in the way in which they understand the challenges that they face and in the face of those challenges, their efforts and their enormous output of energy and of thoughtfulness to try to draw people in and think about ways of delivering a synagogue service, for example, a religious service, of drawing people into the synagogue, employing new technique that speak to people. Jack Wertheimer: I found that very moving to hear about and gained a lot of respect for rabbis across the spectrum who are engaged with heart and soul in those types of activities. I don't have a good answer for you about what works and what does not work. Clearly, we have examples of specific types of programs that have attracted more people. So for example, the introduction in the Reform movement, and for that matter, in the Reconstructionist synagogues and havurot, of new forms of music and choreography and much more attention to the arts. Jack Wertheimer: Those are attracting people to come more frequently. As I said before, not necessarily attracting more people in total, but those who attend are more inclined to attend with greater frequency. The problem is that there's a limit to how often people are prepared to attend. One of the examples I give in the book is of speaking with rabbis who talk about their delight in the large turnout for once a month Rock Shabbat Friday night services. That draws in two, three, four times as many people as on an average Friday night service. Jack Wertheimer: So I asked them, "Well in that case, why don't you do this every other week?" The answer was, "Because people are not prepared to come that often." So does it work? Yes, but it works within limits. People are not prepared to invest that kind of time and that's why I do underscore the point to that, about the importance of frequency. I think we are deluding ourselves if we think that a once a year shot in the arm is going to be sufficient. Jack Wertheimer: I have in fact written about the so-called ""two or three day a year Jews and what they seem to be getting out of it, and I've learned that they really are getting something out of that experience. I'm not denying that and I'm not negating that, but at the same time we're talking about building community, building religious community. It can't be based upon these very episodic types of encounters, but we need people to incorporate Jewish religious life into their daily lives or certainly weekly lives with much greater frequency. Rachael Burgess: As somebody who studied the Jewish experience for so long and I'm fascinated also by the fact that in your book you're talking with so many rabbis. It's really an impressive number of rabbis and spiritual leaders you're speaking to. What is the role of the rabbi in the new American Judaism and how has that changed over the past couple of decades? Jack Wertheimer: There was a time in which the role of the rabbi was understood by synagogue boards as being a CEO, a very kind of business-minded approach, and I'm not sure that that has disappeared. Rabbis are under enormous pressure to keep up membership numbers. And if membership numbers decline, that means that the rabbi is failing. That's what the perception is, but synagogues and other settings for religious experience are not business enterprises. Jack Wertheimer: And one of the things that I rail against in the book, not too much, but to an extent, is this notion of trying to superimpose on religious life, a business model, which I don't think is helpful at all. And I think that the more thoughtful rabbis, and there are many of them out there across the spectrum, understand that synagogue is not a business enterprise. To pick up on Ron Wolfson's locution, relationships are very important, building relationships are very important. That's true especially, going back to your point before Bryan, about individualism. Jack Wertheimer: In an age of individualism people want to be acknowledged, they want to be recognized, they want to be known, so that is important. But we're also living in an age in which the people have questions. There are people who are seekers, who are people struggling with issues. Those are not business issues. Those have to do more with trying to find ways of connecting with those who have questions. Jack Wertheimer: I had a fascinating conversation years ago with a Chabad rabbi whose ministry, if I may use that terminology, is to millennials, post-college students, post-college young people rather. What he said to me was quite memorable. He said to me, "A lot of young people today have lived fairly charmed lives. They have been privileged and they've done very well and it's very hard to reach that population because they don't have questions yet, but then when they encounter setbacks in their lives, whether it's a failure at work or health issue that they themselves encounter or a family member encounters or death in the family or some other disturbing experience, they become more open. They want to understand. They have questions." Jack Wertheimer: And it was fascinating for me to hear how many of the rabbis I interviewed said that when I asked them, "What kind of questions do you get?" Very few of them said, "I get questions about how do I separate meat and milk? How do I observe this particular ritual or that ritual?" The most frequent questions they talked about were questions that were posed by people who were in crisis of one sort or another and who were asking very basic kind of existential questions about their mortality, the mortality of a loved one, how do I explain to my children about an illness in the family. Jack Wertheimer: So those are very different types of issues than one would encounter in a business environment. And rabbis, I think are understanding that they have to touch people at that level and that's also why meditation and healing services are attracting people and certainly are attracting the attention of rabbis. Bryan S.: That was a perfect segue into what I think is probably going to be our last question. For the record, we did not plan it out in advance. I'm sensing that a number of religious leaders really feel the need to reframe or articulate strongly "Why Jewish community? Why Jewish observance? Why Jewish participation?" Were you sensing that in your conversations with religious leaders, and are we going to enter an age where the answers are so variable that it may affect our abilities as Jews to cohere as one community? Jack Wertheimer: Right. Have I encountered the phenomenon you described of rabbis seeing that they need to reframe, they need to answer questions? Very much so. I write for example about rabbis who are very publicly upfront about their awareness, that there are members of their congregations who don't believe in God. And these rabbis will say, "You have a place here in this synagogue and I'm eager to speak with you, not to persuade you about the existence of God, but rather there are other reasons to attend our synagogue." Jack Wertheimer: They were rabbis who were very upfront about their own doubts. And when people come to them and say, "You know, I have difficulty believing in the God as pictured in the liturgy or in the god that's portrayed in the Bible." Rabbis will say, "Well, you know, I have problems with that too. And this is how I think about God as an example." And similarly observance, helping people to relate to ritual practices and see how that can enrich their lives and the lives of their families and especially the lives of their children. Jack Wertheimer: I think a lot of that is going on, again, across the spectrum as part of this recognition that we can't just assume that people are going to go to synagogue because that's what they're supposed to do. There is no "supposed to" anymore at anything in American life. There's also recognition of just how busy people, how distracted people are. Rabbis talk about looking at their out congregants and seeing any number of them with their noses in their smartphones during religious service. So, how do you then help that person put the smartphone down for a few moments or half hour or an hour to concentrate on what's going on here? Jack Wertheimer: And that requires figuring out ways of touching people and speaking to what they really care about. The tricky part of that is does it then just become a matter of talking to individual needs or can you also talk about community? I don't have to remind you that Jewish peoplehood was extremely important to Mordecai Kaplan and it's extremely important to Reconstructionism. So, how do we bridge the needs of the individual with the needs of the community in trying to help people connect the community and seeing how being in community is actually enriching my life. And that's part of the message that's being delivered. Jack Wertheimer: I think the second part of your question had more to do with what works, again, and I don't know that we're at the point yet where we know precisely what works, but I will say that synagogues and their counterparts in the non-conventional sectors need to be about religious community and not solely about the needs of the individual. Bryan S.: Well, the book is The New American Judaism. Dr. Jack Wertheimer. Thank you so much for fascinating, in-depth conversation. We really enjoyed having you. Jack Wertheimer: And as I've enjoyed the conversation, pleasure being with both of you. Rachael Burgess: Thank you so much for being with us. And that was Dr. Jack Wertheimer talking to us about his new book, The New American Judaism: How Jews Practice Their Religion Today, out in stores now. So definitely get yourselves a copy, take a read. It's really, really an insightful book. You can find out more information about Dr. Wertheimer and some other resources, you can go onto our website at trendingjewish.fireside.fm. And make sure that you leave us a great review on your iTunes or Overcast or Castro or Google Play so other people can also discover this great and wonderful podcast. Rachael Burgess: If you like our podcast, you like what we're doing, you like what Reconstructing Judaism is doing, please feel free to support our work and you can do that by going to reconstructingjudaism.org/donate. Thank you so much for joining us. Bryan S.: Lehitraot. See you next time. Rachael Burgess: Hasta la vista. Bryan S.: Baby.