[music] Rabbi Jon Cutler: Part of my job was to actually be the 7th Fleet rabbi, and I would literally fly out onto aircraft carriers and land on the decks of an aircraft carrier. [music] Rachael: Welcome to #TrendingJewish. JC: Well thank you. [chuckle] Rachael: I am here today with my amazing co-host Bryan Schwartzman. Bryan Schwartzman: Hello, Rachael. Rachael: Hello, Bryan. BS: I can't even do the fake thing because I'm just nostalgic. Rachael and I used to be in offices right next door to each other here at RRC. And now Rachael has literally moved up in the world to the third floor. So now I can't even... JC: The third floor, wow. [laughter] BS: I can't even pretend like there's animus because there's nostalgia here. Rachael: I know. Now we're so far apart, and when I was talking... I've just moved actually to the Development Department so I'm going to be helping with fundraising, and I'm not in the Communications Department, which is where Bryan is, and every time I was talking about the Communications Department I kept referring to it as "we" and I had to say, "No, that's not us anymore," but I am very excited this morning that we have our guest, Rabbi Jon Cutler. Thank you so much for pausing your morning routine run to talk to us today. BS: I'll just give folks a little... JC: It's my pleasure. BS: We're so glad to have you and full disclosure, Rabbi Jon and I know each other. He's even been kind enough to take me running a couple times in the suburbs of Philadelphia with his wonderful dog, Izzy. Let me just give a little bit of an introduction. If we gave a full introduction we'd take up the whole podcast talking about Rabbi Jon's credentials, but he is a recently retired captain in the US Navy Reserve where he served for over 25 years, bringing him to places like... JC: No, actually 32 years. I have to correct that if I can. BS: Okay. So 23 years. JC: 32 years. Rachael: No, 32. BS: 33 years, okay. Rachael: 32 years. JC: 32 years, yeah. BS: We're gonna have to edit that. JC: Three-two. [laughter] BS: We're gonna have to edit that, but for 32 years in the Navy, bringing him to places like the Philippines, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, Djibouti, Uganda where he interfaced and had extensive visits with the Ugandan Jewish community, and he's got an equally impressive resume in civilian rabbinic work. He's served a number of congregations including Beth Israel Congregation of Chester County now, and he's started his own havurah. So if we have a question about the military, Jewish life, whatever, Jon can answer it, so we're thrilled to have you here. JC: Well thank you very much. Rachael: And we should also add that you're also an RRC graduate. BS: Oh, absolutely. JC: Yeah, actually I think that's why you're actually interviewing me for this podcast, right? BS: And it's 30 years this year, correct? JC: Yeah, June 7th was 30 years when I graduated. Rachael: Wow. You were already in the midst of your military career when you graduated from rabbinical school. How did you balance that? JC: It actually was two years. What it was was that it was called a Chaplain Candidate Officers' Program where I went in the summer of 1985, which at that time was my Modern Year. Do they still have that? Modern Years? Contemporary years? Rachael: They actually started changing that up but I understand... So this is kind of close to the end of the program. RRC's rabbinic program used to focus on periods of time, so you started from the biblical period in your first year, going all the way up to the modern era. That system has changed within the past couple of years but this was towards the end of rabbinical school for you? JC: Correct, exactly. My last years of rabbinical school I joined the Navy, and it was just summer obligations, and I went up to Newport, Rhode Island for chaplain school in 1985 and then returned back in '86. And then I graduated in 1987 and from there I went right to the Philippines. So you're correct, it was two years when I was a rabbinical student, and then 30 years in the Navy itself as a chaplain. BS: I guess I wanna start out by asking, now that your retirement ceremony is in the very recent past, the large majority of your military career you really had to hide the fact that you were a gay man, that you were in a relationship, and I was wondering if you could contrast that part of your military career with what it was like to live more openly and be able to be your full self and serve your country at the same time? JC: Wow, how long do you have for that? [chuckle] BS: About four hours, what do you think? Rachael: Yeah, something... We could do that. BS: That's the ideal podcast length. JC: I was gonna say, wow. BS: We try to keep it light here. JC: Well first I need to explain why I decided to join the military knowing very well... Actually in 1985 I came out, and the first person I spoke to was Linda Holtzman, and she was really helpful in guiding me in dealing with in the whole process of coming out. And in 1985, it was actually RRC, then it was in that year, they officially recognized gays and lesbians as that could be admitted into rabbinical college. So even when I started rabbinical college, it wasn't officially recognized and there wasn't even any statements about it. And I remember the debate that went on among the students and the faculty at that time to a point that there was one professor... And I don't mean to digress but it's just some history, there's one professor, Ivan Caine, I don't know if you know the name, who put... This biblical year was so adamantly opposed against admitting gays and lesbians. It was a real bone of contention at RRC. So, I was living through that year of the whole debate going on. Rachael: So, you're going through that kind of debate going through school and then you enter into an institution -- I hate saying that, about the military -- but you're going into a career where up until very very recently and even then some of that culture is still kind of slowly beginning to change, that's not an institution that's particularly gay friendly either. JC: No. It was not gay friendly at all. [laughter] As a matter of fact, that institution would have kicked me... Actually, potentially would've discharged me as an administrative discharge where I would never receive any of the benefits, that as an honorable discharge such as medical benefits or any pension, or... even possible jobs because of you... So you probably have some, "Why did I do this?" Rachael: That's a lot of strain to really push on when there's these institutions and people around you that don't accept you for being yourself. JC: Well, and a big part of it, the fact is that the difficulty piece was that I... You learn as a gay man, at least I did, how to hide and what to be public with, and what to be private with. And you just really know how to become really, really acute in knowing how to navigate that and to negotiate that. And that's one of the skills that I really learned is how to, as they say, using the metaphor, navigate those shoals of how to be private and how to be public. I guess then it goes back to the reason why I really joined the Navy specifically was, #1, I saw it as a temporary option. I didn't see that I would end up actually being there for 32 years. So, as a temporary thing I said, "I could do this for a couple of years. I was hidden, but -- look. It was hidden most of my entire life for a really good chunk of my life so I can hide for a couple of years in the military, and then come out, and then figure it out at that point." Being a gay person, you figure it out pretty much day by day how you're going to negotiate all of this. So, I saw the Navy as a temporary stint. 'Cause what I really wanted to gain from was a couple of things. One is, I love the travel piece of it. So when they said I had an opportunity to go into the Philippines for two years I said, "When am I ever gonna get an opportunity to really be in Asia and live there, and know the culture, and still be part of the military?" JC: And the big piece behind that, too, is I really do believe in service, was to serve the Jewish military personnel who are in the far-flung places of the world because they're... When you're looking at the Philippines, I was the only Jewish chaplain for the entire Southwest Pacific and Indian Ocean. Rachael: Wow. JC: So, I travelled extensively throughout Southwest Asia as well as the Indian Ocean. So, I would be flying out to aircraft carrier, I landed on aircraft carriers, I took off on aircraft carriesr. I went on the smallest ship. I saw the personnel boat at Clark Air Base in the Philippines as well as Subic Bay Naval Station and a lot of little smaller installations throughout. And I cannot tell you the amount of joy or appreciation that Jewish personnel had when I went to visit them. I never forget one time, I went out... Again, part of my job was to actually be the 7th Fleet rabbi and I would literally fly out onto aircraft carriers and land on the decks of an aircraft carrier. Rachael: Wow. BS: I've heard that's a stomach turning experience. JC: Yeah. It really is. 'Cause of all the Gs and everything else that's involved with it. But I'll just give you one example. I was out on the USS Constellation which was an aircraft carrier. I flew out on there and there was a Catholic chaplain. I'll never forget him, Chaplain Brown. The Roman Catholic chaplain. It was the time of Hanukkah and Christmas. A carrier has 5,000 personnel on it. 5,000. It's a city. Rachael: Wow. JC: And he came to me and he said... And the reason I went out onto these ships was because Jewish personnel will not identify being Jewish because they don't feel very comfortable with it. The only time they'll identify being Jewish is if there's a Jewish chaplain present. So here's Chaplain Brown, a Roman Catholic. Steve Brown, a Roman Catholic priest. And he said, "I can't find any Jews out of the 5,000 personnel on this ship." I said, "That's impossible. There had to be some Jews." He says, "Okay. Come with me." And he was brilliant. It was a really funny thing. So, we went from bow to stern and we went to every space on the ship and he would be handing out Christmas cards. And then there were some people who say, "Oh, I don't celebrate Christmas." And then he said, "Rabbi, I have one for you." [laughter] So, at the end of a couple days, we're going, of course the entire ship, we actually were able to locate 26 Jews. Rachael: Wow. JC: That's -- the 26 Jews didn't even know each other, but we brought them together for a Hanukkah party and we had a big Hanukkah celebration where the mess deck made latkes and we had a traditional Hanukkah celebration with the menorahs. And ever since then, these 26 people would then organize, these 26 Jews would then organize to have weekly Shabbat services. And then we get together once a week and do a service. So this is the reason why I joined the Navy, is because to have these type of experiences. To be the conduit, to be the mediator, to bring people together. BS: Did you see a change in your time, in your several decades in the military? Do Jewish service men and women today feel more comfortable in displaying their Judaism? Or is there still kind of a little bit of that hidden aspect like you were talking about? JC: It's still a hidden aspect and I don't know if it's so much "anti-Semitism" because I never really saw that publicly displayed in my 32 years in the Navy, which is really amazing. Maybe on a subtle level it's there, on a more subtle level it's there but I never saw it overtly, any anti-Semitism. But what it is is that Jews, yeah they still feel to a certain extent as an outsider. It hasn't changed that much that you still need the Jewish chaplain to be out there. Rachael: One of the things I was thinking about, my father was actually Army and he was an officer in the Army and I actually grew up... JC: Oh really, okay. Rachael: I actually grew up right next to a military base in Southern Arizona almost right on the Mexican border and I grew up there most of my life. We would go to services in this chapel and I was wondering if that was actually something that you had experienced because we never quite experienced anti-Semitism flat out. It seemed as if some of the chaplains didn't quite know what to do with this Jewish population. JC: Exactly right. You hit the nail on the head, you're right. Because it's, the culture is so different. It's not so much the religious faith, I think as a part of just the culture. And you're right they don't know what to do, I feel like, to be pretty... Rachael: Actually just this past year, I went back to my hometown and we had High Holiday services on the military base. My mother was a volunteer lay leader and there was a bit of a dispute between us and the chaplain because they were actually trying to move us into a different room with crucifixes all over the wall and then the room wasn't sanitized and that's something that... I didn't think that that was something blatantly anti-Semitic, it just seemed like an oversight of, "Oh, wait a minute, this is a different group of people, the rooms have to be sanitized in a certain way." I wasn't sure if that was something that you had experienced or did you have to change the culture in places you have been in order to make sure that there is a fair environment for all different kinds of religion even besides just the Jewish groups. JC: Actually, Rachael, you bring up an excellent point because that's one of the major functions. It's not just serving Jewish personnel but you really made up a very good point because what a Jewish chaplain really has to be, is to be the voice, the other voice that's not Christian. So in other words, you're right. There're many times I have had to go to Christian chaplains and say exactly what you experienced. Because I then became the voice of not only the Jewish community, but because I was only one at usually the major installations, I became the voice of the Muslims. Actually had to be a voice of the Wiccans or whatever voice I was, was that of the minority faith so it wasn't just Jews. So in other words, you're right. And there'd be times I'd have to go into a chapel and use it as a Jewish space for services and then I would have to really deal with the command chaplain or the chaplain and say, "Hey look, you need to do X, Y, and Z." I would say 99% of the time I found them to be accommodating. JC: But it's a lack of the awareness because, you're right, when you're in a dominant Christian culture, you're not aware of minority faith groups. And just using another example, when I was in Iraq I was the command chaplain for Al Asad which was a base of 18,000 people. And I was also, in conjunction with that, the wing chaplain for the Third Marine Aircraft wing. In other words, I was the most senior chaplain, one of the most senior chaplains for the Marines in Western Iraq. And as a senior chaplain there was a group of Wiccans who came and said that, "We want a space and we want literature," and I provided them with space and literature. Some of the Christian chaplains opposed the Wiccans. I mean they're not really, you know, fake religion. I said, "No, they have a right to worship the way they need to worship." And because of understanding the sensitives of being the minority faith, I can then empathize with all the other various minority faith groups out there. And that's a very important role that a Jewish chaplain plays beyond just administering to the Jewish personnel and their families. BS: One thing that's sticking with me is you mentioned earlier that you saw this as something you would do for a couple years. So I was wondering, what kept you in it and how did you muster the spiritual strength to sort of live in a hidden fashion, so to speak? JC: Okay, so getting back to that. Getting back to the original point is that... So that's the reason I joined the Navy, was again, to minister to the Jewish personnel, the minorities. And then again later I learned...to be the voice for the Jewish personnel as well as for other faith groups. So then from Philippines I went to Camp Lejeune with the Marines, and then I went to Desert Storm and I was the only Jewish Chaplain for the entire Marine Corps over in Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait, during Desert Storm. And that's a whole another story there in and of itself. But getting back to specifically your point. Then I was transferred, then I did my last tour in Okinawa and I realized at that point I needed to get out, because that was... I put five years into the Navy, and in order to live the life that I wanted to as a gay man, I would have to get out of active duty, because the consequences of being found out were just too pervasive. I was always living in fear that I would be found out, that CNIS, the whole... You have this great program of Criminal Naval... NCIS. NCIS, Naval Criminal Investigative Services, like that TV program? Rachael: Yes. [chuckle] JC: What they did is, during that time they also were doing witch hunts against gays and lesbians. So if they found out or even had any inkling, just 'cause someone tells you that you're gay, then they would come and do a whole investigation. And then I decided, "I can't live on this cloud any longer." So I decided to stay in the Reserves, 'cause the Reserves I still... 'Cause once a month I would do my.... That's easy to be hidden, and then... So that was easy to hide as a Reservist. And then I would have my civilian life and my private life, and I made sure to keep the two very separate for 30 years... 27 years I kept it very separate. It wasn't 'til 2011 when the whole ban was lifted. So again, getting back to your point, it's a lotta... I would have to... In active duty and even in the Reserves I would be very careful about the pronouns I used. I would be very, very closed about my personal life. People would ask and I would change the subject. JC: I was very vigilant about how I said, what I said. And you're constantly monitoring yourself to make sure that there can be never any inkling. There were couple of chaplains who I really trusted and I came out to, and they were very supportive, only a handful of chaplains. The worst experience I had was in... Thierry and I, my husband and I, we've actually been together for 16 years. We met in 2001. And within that period of being together, in 2008 I was in Iraq for an entire 13 months, and we were separated for 13 months. But he was totally invisible to the point that if anything happened to me, 'cause he's not next of kin, obviously, my brother would've found out first, and then my brother would've had to tell Thierry, that if anything ever happened to me. But the other side to this whole thing about being found out was that if anything ever happened to Thierry back in Philadelphia, this whole area. And I could not go home on emergency leave because he wasn't recognized, which means I would've had to come out at that point so I could get home. Plus I would've had to pay for my own airfare back home, because he was not officially a dependent. You know what I mean? That scared me. That was the one that really where... That's the stuff that I lost sleep over. Rachael: What's interesting is that there was this big fear that you had, 'cause the consequences were so great, should you ever be found out. Yet, when you said, "I needed to get out," you didn't just leave military life, you actually went into the Reserves instead. Why didn't you just leave the Navy altogether? Why did you want to at least stay in the Reserves? JC: Well, one is because I've already invested five years, simply from a very practical point of view, 'cause I was going to get pension. Rachael: That makes sense. JC: Two is I really... Yeah, really. And I also got... From a very practical point of view, I would have gotten a pension which now I'm gonna get after 32 years. Two is the medical coverage through Tricare is excellent. So I got all my health benefits through the military. And three was the fact of that hopefully at one time it would change and I needed to stick it out. But outside of the practical pieces there was also the really, just that personal satisfaction that I gained for being a Navy chaplain; helping people, doing service. And also the other piece from my own point of view, my own selfish point of view, is the extensive amount of traveling that I still was able to do. 'Cause as a Reservist I went to Guam, I went to Japan, I went to Europe multiple times. So from that point of view it was really... The benefits still outweighed any of the necessary risks at that point. But what I did was mitigate the risk by being a Reservist. BS: And correct me if I'm wrong, in the end at your retirement ceremony, Thierry was honored and recognized as part of the ceremony. Is that right? JC: I'll tell you one thing. That was the highlight... I would say, that was one of the highlights of my life if not the highlight of my life, is that after 32 years, and after 2011 when Don't Ask Don't Tell was repealed, that this was worth it all. There's one moment on April 30th when I retired from the United States Navy, and the Deputy Chief of Chaplains, an admiral, who's a Southern Baptist, and I know personally, okay? Got up there and recognized Thierry as my husband. That was the pinnacle, that was the highlight of everything, of my entire career. And then at the end of the ceremony, it's a very, very formal ceremony, where you have whistles and bells and the whole thing. And it says that United States Navy Chaplain, I mean United States Navy Captain retired. While I walked the center aisle, where I'm getting salutes from officers, and it's, and the saying was, "United States Navy Chaplain retired with husband." Rachael: Wow. BS: Well, I mean a lot of folks would consider this a difficult time now politically, socially, certainly the feeling we don't know what's gonna happen, I mean, was that just proof to you in some sense that that things change, things can get better because [there's] really dramatic difference in certainly the culture of the military, of society at large from 1985 to now. I mean I guess, was that a moment where you really felt things things can improve? JC: Absolutely. And especially the interesting thing is that all the social, you know, changes, first take place in the military. It's not in society as a whole. When you look back at the history of the military, full integration was back in the 1950s way before the civil rights movement. Women being fully integrated into the military was in the 1960s and the 1970s before women were fully integrated in many aspects of society. Now when you're talking about, which is fascinating, right now at this very moment, in 2017, transgender is now being fully integrated and being implemented right now. The whole issue around transgender and look at the fights that go on in society about this, in the civilian world. Rachael: That's actually a big contrast from what I thought it would be. You would think that, the military is such an old institution that's set in its ways and that's a completely different perspective that somehow that is a cutting edge to social change. JC: Believe or not. I know this is a misconception about the military, that the military is really at the very forefront of social change. BS: At at the same time, you could argue that society as as a whole, American society at least, is more distant from the military than at any time in the recent past, I mean with an all volunteer service, I mean fewer of us knew people who served abroad, it was something maybe we encountered more through the media than direct, personal relations. I mean what would you want the folks who might not have that direct personal relationship, what would you want them to know or think about the military? I mean, I feel like some folks just kind of write the military off as whatever they want to project on it but, I mean, that's not the clearest question I've ever asked, but do you see yourself as a... JC: Yeah, I understand what you're saying, I think what you're saying is the fact is that there are a lot of misperceptions about the military because everything, you know, "military equals war", and it really doesn't. I mean the one thing about the military, again, in my experience of being there for so long is that everything equals really trying to really prevent war. I mean we have plans in place and I mean there's constant plans in place about if there's a war that breaks out. But there's always a lot of pushback on really trying to have a war. Ultimately it's up to the President and the Congress of the United States, which means it's up to the people of the United States. The thing that again, I'm very impressed about my experience in the military and just seeing it as whole. The military is not a separate entity from the population because the population, voters, along with the President can be very influenced by the constituents, and then the military, that's in service of those institutions. JC: So for example with Iraq and going into Iraq, if there was a bigger outcry from the population, like in Vietnam, maybe we wouldn't have gone into Iraq. I mean look what happened with Vietnam. The whole fact is that when the people started protesting then there was forced negotiations with the Vietnamese. I mean we could go on and on and on. So it's not an entity that makes decisions in and of itself by itself. Legally it can't. So what you get, is a real, high level professionalism in the military. A respect for the institutions, governmental institutions, respect for the law. And it's really, it's very much governed by the law. I mean it gets really tedious because it becomes so bureaucratic after a while. But it's still foundationally governed by the law. Unlike when I was in Africa, 'cause I was in Africa for 13 months and I saw the way, and I lived in Djibouti, as Bryan was talking about, but I was also the Director of Religious Affairs. And I traveled extensively to Uganda, to Tanzania, Ethiopia, and Kenya. And I observed militaries in those countries and those militaries do not function like the United States. It's not about the law, it's about the whims of whoever the "leading president" is at that time or the whims of the general. But its not about the overarching understanding and respect for the law. Does that help answer your question? BS: It does definitely and and I just feel like we could go on and on and on, and I'd love to, there's so many questions I wanna ask. We're supposed to be a little lighter on our podcast but we've definitely been on the heavier side today because of the subject matter. So, I wanted to ask something that I hope is at least moderately lighter and that's as somebody who's devoted years to running and spending four, five, six days a week out on the trails, I'm wondering, do you find a spiritual aspect to running and is that something you try to share with others? JC: Actually, it's when I come up with my sermons. [laughter] Rachael: And this was also a practice that you did throughout your time in the military, and you ran marathons while you were in Iraq, which I think is incredible. And this is something that you've maintained as well in your civilian life. So, what does running do for you? JC: Well, I mean, it gets me outside, so that's a big thing. I mean, I hate running in the gym on a treadmill. So, it's not running for the sake of running. But it's multiple reasons. One -- in the very beginning when I started running, I run with friends. So, it becomes a real social occasion for me and real connection with friends. I've had running partners. Actually, I went out for lunch with a friend of mine, Allan Curry, which is quite interesting, who is a Presbyterian minister. And we met at Forbidden Drive 40 years ago. And we ran for 15 years, and then he moved out of the state and then he just recently moved back in and now he can't run because he has back problems. But, he became a very close friend of mine and then I ran with another friend for 18 years and then I ran with some friends for five or six years. So, the big thing is that this is a big social piece for me. So, it's not that I run alone. I mean, it's only recently that I'm running alone, so I'm just trying to get Bryan to become my new running partner. Rachael: [laughter] You're trying to groom him. JC: I'm grooming him. I need a new running partner 'cause all my other running partners have stopped running. [chuckle] So, I have to make public profession so that's why I said every Sunday, you know. BS: If I fall into that role, I don't know if I bring the same spiritual heft as some predecessors though, so... Rachael: I don't know, Jon, it sounds like you have a tendency to wear out all of these running partners. [laughter] JC: Well, the good thing is that it takes like 18 years to wear them out. [laughter] So, at that point I'll be... So he has a little time before I can wear him out. BS: So, I can book my knee replacement for about 10 years from now. [chuckle] JC: Yeah, 18 years from now, you'd be okay. You can do that. BS: All right, all right, okay. Rachael: So, I do have one more question, I know we're definitely going a bit long but one of the things I think is such a fascinating transition, and I know that it tends to be a bit of a challenge I think in military life, because here you were moving all over the world and you had a very strict system that you were working within and now you are a civilian, you are working in a synagogue, which is a whole bunch of bureaucracy and it's its own animal. So, how did you make that transition from that military life to a civilian, quiet life in the suburbs of Philadelphia? JC: Well, I've actually been a congregational rabbi since 1992 when I got out of the military. So, I've had four congregations since 1992. So, I think to answer your question, in 1992, the transition was very difficult for me because I thought I could tell my congregants what to do and when to do it and they would listen to me. And I found that they don't. [laughter] And then I learned through a lot of trial and error on my part, and learned how to really again to negotiate between civilian and military. I probably admit that there were many times where my military piece of looking at chain-of-command and expecting people to do things because I said so, sort of, it bleeds into my civilian life and then sometimes I had my hand slapped by that. You learn through the experience. But on a different note, a serious note, what I really learned from the military and the civilian life is that I learned a lot about myself and to take things slowly and to really respect other people and to hear what their voice is. JC: And because of the diverse community and the diversity and the pluralism of the society that I lived in, in the military, I was able to really bring that into the civilian world. So, just for one example, tonight, matter of fact... I started in Chester County, my synagogue, a ministerium where we have two Lutheran Churches, an Episcopal Church, and a Roman Catholic Church, an Islamic Center, and my synagogue. Tonight we are at Saint Elizabeth's Roman Catholic Church, across the street from my synagogue. We're actually, all these churches and my synagogue is sponsoring an Iftar dinner for the Muslim community. In the Roman Catholic Church, they are going to do the evening prayers, the Muslim community, and we're gonna have a panel discussion on Judaism, Christianity, Judaism, Protestantism, and Roman Catholicism, and Islam. We're having a panel discussion, followed by prayers and followed by an Iftar dinner, where each community is providing meals, a whole meal for the Muslim community. BS: It does sound like this is something we need more of so thank you for doing this. JC: And the thing is I can't imagine not doing it anymore in my life, because I was so influenced by the military. The interfaith dialogue that takes place every single day. I mean that's the thing about the strength of the military and, again, this is another major institution that doesn't happen in the civilian world, where chaplains from various faith groups have to work with each other on a day-to-day basis. Rachael: And you have to create these spaces that are... Because you have limited spaces you have to make sure that the shared space that you have is something that's fair and equal for everybody. JC: Right but I mean, as a chaplain for example, when I'm a Jewish chaplain, I have to work on a day-to-day basis... When I walk into the chaplain's office... There's a Catholic chaplain; there's a Southern Baptist chaplain; there's a Nazarene chaplain. I mean, so the fact is... A Mormon chaplain. So you learn to work with people from various different faith groups. And the overarching thing about it, it's not because of their faith group, but it's who they are as a person. And that's what you really get to connect with. Rachael: I definitely agree with Bryan. I feel like there's so much depth to the things that you've learned and the experiences that you've had, it's like you've lived so many lifetimes. And you've seen such major transitions even, socially, within the military, and constantly being on the front lines of debates and it's great that you were able to end your military career with the celebration for everything that you've worked for and now you don't have to hide and it's amazing all of the work that you've done. JC: Well thank you. I appreciate that. BS: We both thank you for your service and for spending some time on your day off with us in our podcast studio. And maybe we'll have you back in season four, right, [chuckle] when we've got one million listeners. Rachael: And then we can also see how long this grooming process for Bryan being your running partner. I would love... I would love to... JC: Yeah that's what I'm really. Have him confess. Make a public confession now. That's my hidden agenda, which is not hidden anymore. Rachael: No, that's good, because now the wider world can make sure to support you in your goal and make sure that we encourage Bryan to get out there and run with you and... Izzy is your dog? JC: Yeah, Izzy is my dog. Rachael: See, so now you have to go out there with Jon and Izzy. It's committed now. It's in the public. This is public knowledge, now. BS: When the dog wasn't hunting rabbits, she turned around and looked and checked to make sure I was okay because I was falling down. [laughter] So I owe a debt to the dog. JC: She did. She did. Yeah. Rachael: Again, thank you very much for... JC: You're part of the pack now. Rachael: Oh, see? Now the dog says that you're part of the pack. It's definitely a... BS: The circle of trust or something. Rachael: Right. Now you are committed, so we're looking forward to when you start taking Bryan out on marathons. JC: That's the next goal. Oh, I'll let you try a 10k first... BS: No comment. Rachael: Oh, 10k? You're not even doing the 5k with him. You're just jumping right to 10. JC: Yeah, we're just jumping to a 10k. Yeah. Rachael: And you can't see this but the color from his face is just kind of draining a little bit. [laughter] BS: In my defense, it's about 90 outside and we're in an un-airconditioned studio. That's the reason. Rachael: Yeah. Yeah, that's what -- you can continue to say that even though we're, you shouldn't really lie in a rabbinical school, Bryan. BS: Yeah, my nose might have just hit the wall or something, growing. This was fun, Jon. Thanks again and thanks for sharing just a smattering of your experiences. JC: That was my pleasure. [music]