NOEL: Welcome to the Meetings Done Right podcast. This is a podcast in support of the Table XI Inclusion Meeting Cards. In every episode of this podcast, we discuss topics around one of the individual cards in the deck of cards that represent a role in a meeting or a behavior that you want to encourage or discourage. In this episode, we are talking about the Devil's Advocate Card and how we can turn that from a negative into a positive. And we have a guest. Our guest is Rachael O'Meara. Rachael, would you like to introduce yourself to our audience? RACHAEL: Hi. Yes. Hello, everyone. I'm Rachael O'Meara and it's great to be here today. I am a little bit of an entrepreneur, a little bit of a corporate person. I live in San Francisco. I've been at Google for the past 11 years. I work in the world of literally the sales in programmatic buying, to be specific. I've also authored a book called Pause: Harnessing the Life Changing Power of Giving Yourself a Break. And that is based on my own experience from burning out of Google earlier in my career, as well as a lot of emotional and social learning that I have been studying in the past few years. So, I'm really excited to be here. I'm a big fan of supporting innovation and I think as us all being humans, we all have that capacity within us. So, I'm excited to be here today. ASHLEY: Thank you so much for being here. Rachael, you and I met in Madison, Wisconsin when you came to promote your book Pause, and we had so much fun. We had events with the Women in Tech and the Google developer group and culture community up there. You were on quite a book tour. RACHAEL: Yeah, I know. That was around when my book came out. I still have a lot of memories that were so helpful from that time where I did the Disrupt Milwaukee and then went up to, as you said, talk about culture. So, I definitely feel like there's a synergy there between our work, Ashley, you and myself, and it's been really great to co-create with you along the way, even overall, like multiple years now. So, it's exciting to share more about the background of what I have, and I think that will apply today to our topics. I'm really excited to dive in. NOEL: Ashley, would you want to start maybe by explaining what we mean in the Inclusion Meeting Card world what the Devil's Advocate Card means, because it doesn't just mean you get to play the card and be a jerk to everybody's idea. ASHLEY: Right. Yeah, absolutely. RACHAEL: What?! NOEL: Yeah. ASHLEY: [Laughs] This is actually one of my favorite cards. The 'be a jerk' card, it doesn't exist either. [Laughs] RACHAEL: It didn't make the final cut. NOEL: Yeah, we left that card out the deck. Yeah. The artwork was amazing though, and maybe we'll release it as an extra. RACHAEL: That's like a bonus a card you get later. ASHLEY: Yeah. Well, there are six cards where you can make your own, and we've had some suggestions for like a Jargon Card which is a really good suggestion. RACHAEL: Oh, that's a good one. ASHLEY: But definitely another, you have a whole space for 'I get to be a jerk right now' card. But the Devil's Advocate Card is one of my favorites because the intention is to give it to a junior person who's likely to be a little intimidated by a meeting with hippos in the room, the highest paid people, and have them really participate actively by playing the devil's advocate on all of the major issues. So, as you're going through topics, you have the junior-most person who's assigned and this is their job, and they'll play the devil's advocate for all the things on deck. NOEL: Yeah. So, unlike some other cards in the deck which are encouraging or discouraging behavior, this is actually a role. What kinds of things do you like to do to encourage people who might otherwise not feel empowered to give their opinions in meetings to speak up? RACHAEL: I think it's a really powerful way to think about this. And my first thought is around asking a question around, even for ourselves and listeners, think about a meeting you were in where someone said something potentially that sounded a little strange or off the cuff, even maybe different. And it changed the entire direction of the meeting or entire direction of a conversation which influenced an outcome that maybe wouldn't have happened. Think about that for one moment. Jog your memory maybe in the last week, two weeks, a month or something like that. I feel like that is one of the most powerful things that can be done in a meeting and really has a big potential impact. So for that, I know as a junior person, we've all been there and have started our careers. It can be really intimidating. But what I like to think about, there's a couple of things as a devil's advocate. I also like to think of this as the critic. Literally, you are a critic. You're there to poke holes in things, maybe ask questions that others wouldn't say. And this is a potential to shine, like this is your role that you could choose, even if you're junior, to be seen and to make an impact in a meeting that you may not otherwise have that opportunity or courage or thought to do so. So, I think of it as a humungous way to show up. And if you're willing to take it on, it could really change the course of not only the meeting or the talk at the time but also your career. It could be a game changer. And to me, like who wouldn't want to participate in that? If you have the opportunity to influence and say something, I think that role gives you permission that that card is great because it really allows anyone who has it, whether you're entry level or a 20-year veteran or the hippo, to chime in and know that you're safe. Know that you're okay, "Hey, this is the role I have. This is where I'm supposed to be right now." So, to me, I think that is a gift and it isn't something we're normally used to, especially if you're kind of quiet or you're not used to speaking up and you're new, let's say. So, why not seize that opportunity? That's pretty cool. NOEL: Yeah. One of the things I like about the structure of this is that the idea here is that it depersonalizes it a little bit. Like, "Yes, I'm critiquing it but this is my role here to critique it. It's not a personal attack. I don't have to put necessarily my personal self on the line but it's just the role I have here. Like, I'm being called upon to do this for the group." I think that makes it a little bit easier. RACHAEL: Definitely. Yes, it gives that permission. But what I also think that's really valuable is the role of the critic in itself, whether you've got the card or not. And being a critic, this is something I've learned over time, doesn't come natural to me but others might. Think of a critic as a truth teller. You're there to tell the truth. And if you don't like something, maybe you don't say it like, "I don't like this." But you could say, "I'm not sure I really believe this could work. Can you share more?" And asking open-ended questions, not making it personal. So again, it's business. Most of us are there to better our worlds. And that means your job is to show up, and in this case, as a devil's advocate. But think of it as you're responsible as well to change the course of what this is because you're potentially seeing things that others aren't catching because you just got that watchful eye. And that, to me, is a really, really interesting role to have. And also the gift of the critic is to shed light on things that others maybe won't see. And instead of thinking of it like, Oh, I've got to be the jerk," or, "I'd share something that no one wants to hear." Don't worry about that. Instead, I would invite anyone to rethink this as an opportunity to be the critic, but you are the truth teller. So that, "Man, how much better would that product be if we really vetted it and knew that maybe this won't work. Maybe we do need to rethink something. Maybe we need to test XYZ." And that is what the critic can spot and potentially lead to. And I think that's where I would go if I had that card. NOEL: Yeah. I think, oftentimes, if we take it outside of the meeting, the role of a critic, somebody offering a critique of some work is even not so much to say mean things about it necessarily but to sort of accurately and objectively describe it from a perspective that's not the perspective of the person whose idea it was. It's not a license to be a meanie. And there are ways to do it that don't involve being a meanie but it is, I think, taking away from the person who had the idea to try and restate the idea in a way that potentially raises some questions or sheds a different perspective on how the rest of the group should talk about or think about that idea. RACHAEL: Yeah, I agree. I think that that is a large significant way to play the role. My thought around the meanness part is interesting because the thing with the critic is yeah, you're there to poke holes, that's how I like to think of it, and be the truth teller and ask those really provocative questions that would change the course of what's happening, which I think is, again, really powerful. And maybe it means you're not nice about it, maybe you are a little mean, but not in a personal way. You just might say, "This isn't working for me. Hang on, guys. Hang on. Let's look at this in more detail. Can we go over that again?" There's nothing mean about that. That is an objective statement. And it's also about the delivery, of course. But I think you can have an intention to be really impactful and use your own voice in whatever way that works. You might think it sounds mean but in reality, it's probably not. It's probably just something that's helping others, as well, learn and think about something differently. I would think of mean being like an attack on someone personally. No one's probably going to do that in a meeting. So, being a critic means you've got that really watchful eye and you're popping up someone's radar because maybe there's not something you 100% agree with. Maybe you agree with it 80%. But just saying 'hang on', it's a great phrase, like, 'hang on', 'hang on, guys', 'wait a minute', 'let's think this through', what do you mean when you say this', or 'how do you expect this to happen'. To me, when you hear that, I'll ask you, Ashley, does that sound mean to you? ASHLEY: That's a great question. There's a lot of talk lately about building cultures of feedback and how important that is. And it's sort of the difference between somebody telling you, you have spinach in your teeth. I absolutely want people to tell me there's spinach in my teeth. I don't think it's mean. I think it's mean to allow you to go on thinking that everything is fine when you have something green stuck in your teeth or you're going forth with an idea that is flawed in some way that could be made better. And so, we are in business. We will fail occasionally but I think it's really important to be really honest and open to feedback when you have it. So, I don't think it's mean. I think there are a lot of company cultures that are so afraid of that perception that it is mean that they fail to give really valuable feedback and that's not someplace I want to be either. RACHAEL: Totally. NOEL: At the same time, there are also cultures that are so hyper aggressive about giving feedback that it is a deterrent too, and you don’t want that. I remember a long time ago when I was choosing, I went to visit a research center. People would present their work on a weekly basis and the goal of the meeting for the rest of them was to disrupt the person by asking so many questions that they couldn't get through their presentation. That was the accepted culture and I was like, "Nah, this is not for me." ASHLEY: That's so terrible. NOEL: Yes, somewhere in between that. [Laughter] RACHAEL: I don't think I'd want to be doing that myself. Yeah. Somewhere in between, I think, is good. What's coming to my mind is having either agreements. So, meeting agreements where we all agree to operate in a certain way and maybe that's with the cards. And that could be a values exercise that's already existing. You just bring it up and remind people in the beginning. That's a great way to go. Here's our three rules here. Here's the opportunities. Here's what we stand for. And in getting buy-in and making sure everybody agrees with that, especially if you're starting this and it's a new concept. And then the other thing is it's easy to judge and to make judgments in our own minds. So, instead of really having a judgment, I would offer the invitation to just think of things as data, like see things as data as people present them and offer your two cents. Be the critic, be the devil's advocate, be whatever card you have in the best interest of knowing there's goodwill in the meeting and knowing we're all in this together to try to get something done. I think when we have those tenets in mind, things can move in a really smooth way. You are able to really provide the best of the best for feedback and opportunity to improve anything or brainstorm in whatever stage you're in. Ultimately, that can ideally lead to a really good culture where people feel included and have a really good representation of what's possible in that meeting. NOEL: Yes. Starting meetings with a discussion of the values, the rules of the meeting actually is something we do here quite a bit, at least for certain kinds of meetings. And it's also something we do at the beginning of projects where a team will get together and sort of discuss their, for lack of a better term, rules of engagement throughout the rest of the time, and we find that to be pretty effective. Rachael, do you have any specific advice along this line for meetings that are remote? Is there any part of this that you need to be more careful about? RACHAEL: I know all about remote meetings. I feel like most of my meetings have been remote or they're in some way not in person 100% of the time. So, that's just, I think, a reality of where our world is going. So, I think we all need to be really up to speed on what can work and how it works better. I think the biggest thing about being remote is you really just see, for the most part, a talking head or someone who's like a neck up from a screen potentially. If you've got a room, it might be people in the room, but there might be distance. You can't really read expressions great. So, I think it's really important to pause and listen first to others, allow people to finish what they're saying. Have those rules potentially be like if there's a need to go over, then you can. But maybe there's like a timer even set for that stuff. I think from the remote side, it's really easy to misinterpret people and what's happening because you're there but you're not there 100% in the room. If you're in a room, how different is that then being on a screen? And it does feel different. As much as we wanted to be the same and we try, and it might even be a phone call. So, there's a loss of the visual. If you're on there, you might not be able to interpret how things are really going. So, I think it's good to ask clarifying questions, and again, open-ended questions to say more. And I know from my experience, I participate a lot in team meetings where we've got multiple offices in a joint video conference. For those meetings, I think it's good to chime in when there's questions. You want to be someone who can be additive to the meeting. So, if you've got the cards, whether you're doing that or if it's just something that you want to share, that's great. But it's also that there might be 90% of the people in one room, so making sure you ping an organizer maybe an advance, "I have this idea I want to share today," or, "Do you mind if I have a minute to respond to this," or something like that, if you can. It's not always possible. And then on one-on-one meetings, I think that's really where a lot of the listening can be really genuine and important but it takes extra effort. It takes more conscious learning. And again, it's so easy to want to multitask whether you're on the phone or doing something else. And I know, I'm a recovering multitasker myself, I think that there's a lot of just really being focused and having an effort and an agreement for everyone to maybe have laptops down or not to be multitasking because I think in remote situations, that's a really easy thing to do and it's hard to control it. ASHLEY: Rachael, tell us more about the Pause that you took and sort of how our listeners can get a sense of that for their own lives? RACHAEL: Long story short, I burned out of a role. I was in a customer support manager operational role several years ago with Google and I just felt like I wasn't doing well. I was getting feedback, I wasn't meeting expectations yet. Despite that, I was trying really, really hard and couldn't really figure out what was going wrong. And I call a 'pause', any intentional shift in behavior. So, it doesn't mean it's a long break. But in my case in that point, I felt very mentally drained. And so, I asked for a three-month unpaid leave and I got approval for it. I know that that's not an option that most companies offer or even individuals get where only 14% of companies globally offer any type of paid or unpaid leave. I think it's growing. But in my case, I was very fortunate. I chose to take that time to really learn and take a look at myself. I had never done that before where I wanted to see where and who I really was, like, "Who is this woman who works in tech but maybe isn't really on the right path? Is this where I'm really supposed to be?" And so, I did return to Google, as we know, I'm there now. And I actually looked at a role that aligned with my strengths. I did the strength finder assessment which is from Gallup and Tom Rath, and I learned that my strengths weren't really aligned with the role that I'd had previously. So, that was one of the things and other things I realized more about personal responsibility of really owning that, "Yeah, this isn't a fit. Maybe I'm not living up to these expectations. How can I change that? What could I do differently? And not beat myself up for it, is part of it too. So, all of that happened. And as a result, I started doing things that brought me more joy at Google. One of them was hosting speakers and I ended up hosting a speaker who wrote a couple of books on emotional intelligence who invited me to their training, and that's where I have been studying Emotional and Social Learning at the Wright Foundation in Chicago for the last seven years. So, to me, a pause was what I needed then, but I really helped people now understand what they could be doing that helps them be more self-aware, whether it's intentional shifts in behavior that are a moment, just kind of detoxing of digital devices and turning your phone off after 9:00 p.m. Or maybe it's a risk or something out of your comfort zone that you wouldn't normally do that feels really nourishing, or maybe it's actually a week off that you take, intentionally learn about what did you want to do in your next step in your career because maybe you want to do something different or add more or align in a different way. And so, I wrote the book based on my experiences but also a lot of the research that I have been learning over the last few years in emotional and social learning. And my goal is to help people learn that it's OK to pause and not have to be on an 'always on' mode because that's just not a sustainable way of being, as most of us have probably experienced it in some way, shape, or form. NOEL: Rachael, we've been asking all the people that have come on the show with us to share either their best or their worst meeting stories or both, if they have them. What stories would you like to tell us? RACHAEL: That's a good question. I love that question because it makes me jog my memory of what is the best meeting, because I don't typically think of those things. But what is coming to mind is -- I don't have a specific meeting, but I can just give you one example recently and it has to do with speaking freely, like just flowing with what I want to share. And I think it ties in really well with the Devil's Advocate Card where you feel like you want to interject, that you feel like a 'free to share the truth' for what you really want to say. So I say, go for it, say what matters. And I ended up sharing about an idea that I had with a colleague that I thought of about five years ago for a way to make advertising more inclusive of brands and giving back. She wants to run with it and try it out in a product we have at Google. And so, that was just something I kind of mentioned but it was something I was flowing with, wanted to share, and followed my desire to share it with her and connect. Now, this could be an entirely new pilot project we do and it would never have happened if I hadn't spoken up. So, I think that's a big takeaway for me, no matter what meeting I'm in, I can share what is on my mind in a way that is effective and ideally someone or others would benefit from it. And so, it was really cool. And that just happened, it was actually, I don't know, off-site two weeks ago. So that was one that I had. ASHLEY: That's so great. RACHAEL: Yeah. And I think that if you give yourself permission to speak up and have that, I think there's lots of opportunities for really great meetings like that. So, that's one of my good meetings. Was there another part of the question? NOEL: Do you have a worst meeting story? RACHAEL: OK. I thought that's what it was. Worst meeting. Luckily, I don't have a blaring disaster stories, I think, where I work. And the meetings I've had, I think, have been very fortunate not to have anything crazy. But there was a personal story I remember when I was burning out and my manager sat me down on a one-on-one and said, "Hey Rachael, I don't think this job is a fit for you." To me, that was a pretty bad meeting because I was literally getting the proverbial pink slip, like I need to figure something out for myself. To me, even a bad meeting can be a wakeup call. In my case, that was a wakeup call to look at myself and figure out what to do because what I was doing wasn't working. But again, she was a critic. She was an advocate for me and a devil's advocate saying, "Hey, I care about you and I think this isn't the fit that you want." And I didn't really know it because I wasn't in it at the time. I was in it but I couldn't see that. And so looking back, I'm so grateful for that. Oh my, gosh. Everything that's happened in my career has been almost as a result from that "terrible meeting" I had. I think that good, bad are our ways that we frame things. Something that's bad, I would ask the question: what is the positive outcome of this or what is something that can be good from what just happened? And there's always something. And our brains love to harness the negative and this is also emotional training. So, if you can actually force yourself to think of what's positive, even if it's the worst meeting ever, you're going to be benefiting long term and so will others, as well, because you're going to learn something. And maybe you'll never do that again, or maybe like, "Hey, that was actually a great way to get something out we would never have gotten." Who knows? And it might lead to other things. So, that's what I'm thinking of right now. ASHLEY: That's such a great answer, Rachael, and I think such a testament to who you are as a person because I can tell you that literally, every other guest has said like, "I don't know that I have a best meeting but I definitely have a worst." [Laughs] RACHAEL: Really? How funny. NOEL: People have been very, very -- we're recording these out of order. This is going to be one of the first ones that's going to come out. But yeah, people have generally been much more emotional about their worst meetings. ASHLEY: Right. RACHAEL: That's hilarious. RACHAEL: Well, that's what I'm talking about. I mean, it's easy to focus on the negative unless you're really thinking consciously about it. And if we're just all a little more conscious, then hopefully we'll have better meetings in general. NOEL: Rachael, was there some place online where people could get some more information about your book and the other things that you do? RACHAEL: There is, yeah! I'm so glad you asked. I have a web site, it's RachaelOMeara.com. It's just my name, and that has all kinds of goodies on it. I'm offering a blueprint which is a guide to three steps to turn overwhelm into thriving at work and beyond. So, if anyone wants to go to my website, RachaelOMeara.com, you can download that free blueprint and ideally learn how to get out of overwhelm, and other things on that site. I also have a podcast called the Pausecast. You can find that on iTunes and other channels, as well. That's where you can find me. ASHLEY: Awesome. Thank you so much. NOEL: Yeah. Thank you for being here. RACHAEL: Thank you. It was fun. What a pleasure. Thank you so much. NOEL: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Meetings Done Right podcast. If you would like to learn more about the Inclusion Meeting Cards, order a set of your own. To find out about other episodes of this podcast, go to MeetingsDoneRight.co. You can also find out more about this podcast by searching for Meetings Done Right wherever you listen to podcasts. Leaving a review on Apple Podcasts will help people find the show. The Inclusion Meeting Cards and the Meetings Done Right podcast are produced by Table XI. Table XI is one of Inc. Magazine's Best Workplaces and a top-rated custom software development company on Clutch.co. Learn more about Table XI at TableXI.com. Meetings Done Right is hosted by Ashley Quinto Powell and Noel Rappin, and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening.