NOEL: Hello. On this episode of the Meetings Done Right podcast, we're talking about the Speak Up Card in our Inclusion Card Deck. Ashley, would you like to tell everybody what the Speak Up Card is for and what it does?

ASHLEY: Sure. Have you ever been in a meeting and someone is like, "[Murmurs]."

NOEL: I'm sorry, I didn't get that. Could you speak up? 

ASHLEY: I know. You didn't get it. You could flash the Speak Up Card and ask them to enunciate and be loud enough to hear through the whole meeting. Especially when you're in a big room, that can be really tricky. So, the Speak Up Card is perfect for that.

NOEL: We're not just talking about speaking up in terms of volume, we're talking about speaking up at all, too. And we have a guest with us to help us talk about the Speak Up Card. Would you like to introduce yourself?

KATIE: Sure. I am Katie Gore. I am the Founder and Director at speechIRL which is a speech therapy and inclusion consulting firm which is always a really fun byline to give folks. But the short version is I love talking about talking especially from a behavioral science background.

ASHLEY: Katie, we're so grateful to have you on. We've worked with you in a number of capacities and have always been very impressed with the work that you do and are excited to talk about speaking up with you.

NOEL: Katie was also one of the people that was a consultant on the Inclusion Cards themselves.

ASHLEY: Katie, do certain groups of people have trouble being heard in meetings?

KATIE: The short answer is yes. My speech therapist brain is going there are many, many, many groups of people or I would just say there are many, many people, I wouldn't put the people into groups. But I would say there are groups of reasons why people might have trouble speaking up. And maybe I would ask you to clarify the question. Do you want to know, are we talking about trouble speaking up or trouble being heard?

ASHLEY: Ooooh, what a good distinction. Let's talk first about trouble being heard. I think that one is really fascinating because if it's a volume issue, that's certainly different than speaking up at all. So, tell me about the volume issue first. Is it just a matter of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and yelling?

KATIE: Great question. And I think what you just provided as a suggestion is what a lot of people think when they think of being loud. But being heard in terms of having people pay attention to you when you open your mouth could involve a number of different things. Often, people associate being heard with volume [in a whispering voice: and yes, certainly even speaking really quietly, it's hard to hear]. But there are [speaks undecipherable words] like that. So, what I did right there was I changed my articulation and my resonance of my voice a little bit. Even though the volume was exactly the same. Without getting too technical, there are a ton of very technical parameters of things that people can do with their voice that allow for projection or not. And you'll encounter this. You have met people and you're like, "Wow! That person just naturally projects really well." Projection isn't necessarily about volume, it's how you're putting all these different components together. Most people do this subconsciously. And I can give a whole talk on this topic. 

But in terms of that, if there is something that you're doing physically with the way you produce your voice or the way you speak, it can make it difficult for other people to hear. What you're actually might be doing is dampening the sound waves that are coming out of your mouth. And it is not other people's fault that they can't pick those sound waves up. They're just not traveling across the room. So in that case, yes, it would be incumbent on the person who's doing the speaking to learn how to use their voice in a more effective and powerful way so that they can be heard. If your sound waves aren't reaching other people's ears, it's going to go right down there. 

Outside of that component, there are all kinds of social and cultural reasons why people might not be heard. There are things you can do with your body language and how you're getting attention. You might be really good at getting attention physically before you start speaking. And if you get attention silently but physically or maybe visually, that might get everybody else in the room to stop talking and give their attention to you so you don't have to work as hard with your voice. If you're not getting attention visually, if you're just going to solely rely on your voice, you might have to throw a really powerful sound out there right out of the gate to get everyone to stop what they're doing and listen to you. 

ASHLEY: Huh!

NOEL: What are some specific pieces of advice that you can give to people, first of all, on the things that they can control. If I'm a person and I'm having trouble being heard in meetings, what are some of the things that I can specifically, that are specifically under my control that I can do to improve my vocal quality?

KATIE: In terms of significantly changing vocal quality, that is the sort of thing that is actually kind of difficult to do on your own. Some people just have these very naturally strained-type, quiet-sounding voices and if you try to talk louder, it just gets harder and harder. And those are folks who will typically go to a vocal coach or a voice therapist to get that training. It is very difficult for me to tell you how to do that online.

NOEL: It actually starts to hurt. As somebody who has that kind of voice, often, it actually starts to hurt if somebody just says, "Speak louder." 

KATIE: Yup. There's a lot of technical stuff that involves learning how to feel what you're doing in your throat and changing those muscles differently. It's equivalent to singing lessons. That would be like, one or two things I could do is sing better.

ASHLEY: [Laughs]

KATIE: And it's difficult for me to tell you in a 20-minute podcast. What I would say if you are someone who has a naturally quieter voice and you do find that no matter -- whenever you're told to speak up, you just can't get your volume louder. I would recommend a quick tip - doing what we call compensatory strategies. So, doing other things to make sure you are optimizing the environment in the room for that quieter voice that you have. So, that would be something like being very intentional about when you're going to speak up, raising your hand, maybe getting the attention on the person on either side of you so that they're going to be your ally and draw their attention to you to lead other people in the room. Those sorts of things so that when you speak, you're not having to talk over people. Maybe using your hand if there's an interrupter in the room because you aren't going to be able to rely on your voice to keep talking over that person. So, using more of those non-verbal cues.

ASHLEY: Outstanding. What can you do if you're leading a meeting to make sure that everyone is heard?

KATIE: I think a lot of that is just very good self-awareness and structure. Understanding as the leader being aware of who has been talking, who hasn't been talking, the amount of time that people are talking. The more structure you can set in a meeting, that makes it clear to the people in the meeting what the expectations are. "So, we want to hear from everybody. In this meeting, we're going to be asking everyone to speak up." And then tracking that as the meeting goes. That is a basic facilitator or meeting leader skill, I think.

ASHLEY: Wonderful.

NOEL: I think that with respect to what you said previously, I think setting the meeting so that the expectation is that people are not going to talk all over each other, helps a lot, too, because if there's a culture of people talking all over each other, the loudest voice tends to carry in that kind of structure. But if people are taking turns, I think it's somewhat easier for somebody with a quieter voice or a subtler aspect to get attention.

ASHLEY: You know, when I was a little girl, I met this famous trader named Linda Raschke. There's some distinction, like she was the first female trader on the open outcry floor of the Chicago Board of Trade. It was like a 'Take Your Daughter to Work Day' at the Chicago Board of Trade and she explained to all of us, little girls at the time, that it had been such an advantage to her having a voice that went higher when she got excited or stressed out because you could hear her tone over all of these low, grumbling, angry, loud male voices. I mean, it's been a couple decades since she told me about that and I still bring it up because it's amazing.

KATIE: High pitches carry further than low pitches. So, we typically associate a low pitch with this kind of deep rumbling. And if you have a lower sort of anatomically male voice that can boom, that can carry really well. But a [in a high-pitched voice: really, really high pitch can carry very, very far]. And I think sometimes where some of the gender stuff with voice gets into play is that really high frequencies can be quite grating for us to listen to. So I think for women, sometimes, it can be a huge advantage because it does cut through background noise very effectively. But if it's too high, it can kind of have a painful effect on the listener. And that's not a sexist thing, that's just the way humans react to different sound frequencies. So, it's very interesting.

ASHLEY: No kidding. Any remote meeting tips or remote setup tips. You too, Noel, since you do remote meetings pretty frequently.

NOEL: There's a couple of structural things. One thing that is easy to lose in a remote meeting is the kind of context that lets you make sure that everybody has spoken, especially if you have a meeting where like five people are in one place and one or two people are not there. You have to be really careful to make sure that those people are getting the chance to be heard, that you are making that opportunity. Because there's a visual cue that you may not be getting or may not be getting with the same force that you would be getting from somebody that's sitting right next to you or right across from you. Beyond that, a lot of these things are technological solutions. If you are the remote person, making sure that you have a setup that will transmit your voice at least, and possibly your face, is very helpful. And I think that if you are in a big room, if you're in a room where you're the five people, that we tend to overlook the audio needs there because the people in the room can hear just fine. But that's very tricky. It's actually, on a technical basis, kind of tricky to mic a conference room, unless you're giving everybody an individual microphone in such a way that it picks up people's voices but doesn't pick up like all sorts of background noise too loud. If you're running that kind of meeting, making sure that you have that kind of setup where everybody's voice is just being transmitted, that's a big first step and can make all of the other things we've talked about easier or harder depending on how you have it set up.

ASHLEY: I was at Shure, the headquarters of Shure here in the Chicagoland area earlier this week and they make microphones including all the ones anyone's ever spoken. They just have an enormous amount of market share. They were showing me a series of microphones in a panel on the ceiling that looked exactly like all of the other. I mean, fundamentally the same as the other panels in the ceiling. It was pretty fascinating. But the idea was that it gets rid of all of the sound of somebody tapping or setting a drink down or something on a table. Because all those table mics pick up all of that nonsense.

NOEL: Yeah.

ASHLEY: We need one. 

NOEL: [Chuckles]

KATIE: I don't think I would add too much there other than maybe reiterating the other point earlier of just as a leader, also being really, really highly aware. So, the technology component is huge. But explicitly giving opportunities to remote people if ever I'm in a meeting, using the video is a huge component because when you have someone who's remote and you can't see them, I feel like as though, as the meeting leader, if I'm there in person, that person feels really distant. And I feel awkwardly disconnected from them. So, it's a lot of just active, explicit solicitation, "Hey, did you have anything to say?" Sometimes, since I facilitate a lot and I'll be facing a live audience of people but the screen might be behind me, so I can't see the remote folks, I will actually ask somebody else in the audience of, "Hey, can you really be watching the people whose faces are on the screen and signal to me if they look like they have a question." And I do that publicly just so that everybody knows we really want these folks to be included. But just being explicit and intentional, potentially to the point of being a little bit wooden or awkward compared to how you might think of the "natural flow of conversation", but just to really make sure that all those opportunities are there.

ASHLEY: That's a solid tip. I like that a lot.

NOEL: The whole premise of this Inclusion Deck is you have these cards that you are actually playing during the meeting. We have the Speak Up Card which specifically is sort of meant to be kind of an unobtrusive way to say, "I didn't quite get that." If you're on the receiving end of that, what should you do? How should you approach being carded, I guess, with the Speak Up Card? How should we think about that on both sides of that interaction?

KATIE: That's an interesting question because certainly, if you are the kind of person -- so my mother actually, is someone, ever since I was a little girl, I remember her talking to me about how she has a really quiet voice. And even in elementary school, when she would be giving a book report at the front of the classroom, the teachers would say, "Linda, speak up! Linda, speak up!" And just how frustrating that was because she had a naturally quiet voice and it was really hard to make it louder. And if you are someone who has a naturally quieter voice, when someone says that to you, you're like, "I'm doing the best I can!" And that can be really, really frustrating and demoralizing. So, I think that is something to be sensitive about if you are playing the card.

If you work with this person and you're aware that they tend to have a quieter voice, it could still be worth playing the card but it might be worth, I don't know, having an understanding or conversation with that person ahead of time so that you're not asking them to do something that might actually be very challenging. Now, on the flip side of that, I think a really good use case for this card is people who have the ability to elevate their voice, but sometimes, they're so thoughtful about what they're saying or they're just kind of pontificating in a meeting. And so, as they're talking, their voice just gets really quiet and they kind of forget that they're speaking for the benefit of other people, not just themselves. And to bring attention for that person being like, "Hey, presumably the reason you're talking is so that all of us can hear you." And in that case, if the card was played for you, I would recommend re-attuning yourself to the room, usually doing something with your physical carriage. So, sitting up a little taller, leaning in rather than if you're being like slumped in your chair, kind of looking down, really bringing your vocal mechanism which should be your chest, your throat, your face up and into the speaking space so that your voice is going to move out as much as possible into the room. If you're speaking and your head's down into your lap, that's the direction that the sound is going to go and it's going to get absorbed in your lap.

ASHLEY: Excellent. Katie, tell me what's the best or worst meeting you've ever been a part of?

KATIE: The worst one I was ever in was for a large project I was a part of, or helping out with. And everybody in the room -- I was one of the most, if not the most junior person in the room. And a lot of the folks in the room were extremely senior. We were all coming together on this project. So, they're used to having the most authority in the room. Very, very comfortable in their positions. And the entire meeting, I just sat there thinking, "This is the worst meeting I've ever been in." Lots of loud voices. Very friendly relationships between the folks. It wasn't confrontational at all. But in terms of getting anything done, I think the meeting was like two and a half hours long and easily could have been done in a few minutes kind of thing. Because even though there was an agenda that had been provided at the beginning of the meeting, nobody paid any attention to the agenda.

ASHLEY: No!

KATIE: It was, "You know, that makes me think of this other thing. We should talk about that." "No, we shouldn't." And everything from, "Oh, this is a random thing that is connected to the project, so here's a personal story I'd like to tell." Very little refereeing. My experience of it was just not as much self-awareness in terms of how our individual communication choices and behaviors lead into the flow of a meeting. So, just sort of your classic overall meeting chaos with a lot of loud voices that talked over each other which was fine because everybody in the room was able to do that. But it was just a very exhausting situation.

ASHLEY: For two and a half hours, that's a really long meeting.

KATIE: It was a long meeting. And then conversely, the best meeting I've ever been in, and this is a little bit of an unusual situation. You both probably know this, but as a speech pathologist, one of my specialties is stuttering and I've been heavily involved with a lot of stuttering nonprofit organizations. So, I was in a meeting where we were collaborating on a particular project and I was the only person in the meeting who was not a person who stutters. Being in the stuttering community, everybody is extremely aware of time, patience, interrupting, and giving everybody as much time as they need to talk, but also being mindful of giving other people an opportunity to speak. And so, often in meetings of all people who stutter, there are very long pauses in between individuals' turns because it's often very difficult to start talking if you're a person who stutters. You can be trying to talk but there could be the silence at the beginning of an utterance. So, everybody is very, very attuned. This was an entirely remote meeting, as well. So anytime somebody is done talking, everybody is visually scanning the faces of every other person in the meeting to see if it looks like that person is trying to talk or has something to say. And we'll sort of collectively say, "Oh, we can tell that you have something to say and we'll all wait for you to do it." So, the pace of the meeting is very, very slow, very, very measured, but in a really steady and welcoming way, not in a tedious way at all. And whenever anyone speaks, everything they're saying, just the fact that they're saying it, is so valued. And there's also the understanding that different people like to talk to different amounts. So just because someone isn't speaking a lot doesn't mean you need to pick on them per se. They might be someone who says a couple of sentences and then they prefer to listen. So, those are actually the best meetings that I'm ever in, are the ones where people have speech disabilities because everybody is so wanting to support the speaking of everybody else in the room. I often find it ironic and I reflect on this that being in a meeting with people who have communication struggles are, by far, the most productive, efficient, comfortable meetings I've ever been in because everyone is working so hard to support other people speaking and also be aware of when they're speaking, how what they're saying is impacting other people.

ASHLEY: That's incredible.

NOEL: Yeah, that's really great, Katie. One other meeting related tip that people could take from this and use in their meetings today or tomorrow?

KATIE: My favorite tip, this is both for meetings, for even one-on-one conversations, is using meta commentary, especially if you're leading a meeting. But even if you're not the leader of the meeting, this is what helps keep meetings on track. Like you were saying, Noel, having a really good structure or having an agenda, making sure everybody is very clear on the expectations for the meeting at the beginning, what are the sort of rules or etiquette of that meeting space going to be. And that's why the Inclusion Deck is so great because it really helps facilitate that and set that up. But same things frequently like, "OK, we've been talking about this topic for 10 minutes. I can see, Nancy, that you are really passionate about this topic, but it looks like Joe has something to say. So, I'm going to interrupt you and move it to him." As a meeting leader, I think, interruption is an incredibly important skill because there are people who go on and on. But if you're going to interrupt someone, I think, it's actually more natural and less awkward to acknowledge that you're interrupting them. So you say, "Ashley, I'm going to interrupt you right now, so we can hear from Noel."

ASHLEY: [Laughs]

NOEL: Oh, hi. 

ASHLEY: Hi.

KATIE: That would be an example. Those are some examples of that meta commentary as a facilitator that you can use. Or even as someone who is not a facilitator but saying, "Oh, hey. You know, I'm sitting right next to you and you've got some really cool notes. Would you be willing to share those?" Just stuff like that to get people participating. And again, that's what the cards do. That's why I love them so much.

ASHLEY: Thank you.

NOEL: Katie, thank you very much. Yes, thank you for being on our Meetings Done Right podcast. It was great to hear from you.

ASHLEY: Yeah. Thanks, Katie.

KATIE: Thank you both so much. This was really great to be here. And I am so excited to hear how the cards work out in real life for everyone. 

NOEL: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Meetings Done Right podcast. If you would like to learn more about the Inclusion Meeting Cards, order a set of your own. To find out about other episodes of this podcast, go to MeetingsDoneRight.co. 

You can also find out more about this podcast by searching for Meetings Done Right wherever you listen to podcasts. Leaving a review on Apple Podcasts will help people find the show. The Inclusion Meeting Cards and the Meetings Done Right podcast are produced by Table XI. Table XI is one of Inc. Magazine's Best Workplaces and a top-rated custom software development company on Clutch.co. Learn more about Table XI at TableXI.com. Meetings Done Right is hosted by Ashley Quinto Powell and Noel Rappin, and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening.