NOEL: Hi. Welcome to the Meetings Done Right podcast. This is a special podcast about having better meetings based on the Table XI Inclusive Meetings Card Deck. In this episode, we're going to be talking about the Angel's Advocate Card which is played in a meeting when you have to say something that is an extension of or an agreement with the person who is speaking. In order to help us talk about that concept, we have a special guest. Guest, would you like to introduce yourself?

JESSE: Why, sure! My name is Jesse Shternshus and I am the owner of the Improv Effect. Thanks for having me. 

ASHLEY: Thank you for being here. Jesse, we wanted to have you on because this card really means advocacy for what's on deck. And we think it is very similar to 'Yes, and…' - a concept in Improv. We've worked with you, we really respect your work. And so, we'd love to have you weigh in and tell us more about how to use this card in meetings. We hear of people playing Devil's Advocate all the time. So, why is the Angel's Advocate so important? 

JESSE: I think it's important to have the atmosphere of trust in a meeting and safety, so that everybody feels as if their voices can be heard. And in order to do that, you need to have an atmosphere of validation. And the Angel's Advocate promotes something called 'Yes, and…' which comes out of Improv. And it's not just a 'yes', and it's not just an 'and', but the two things go together nicely. And the reason being is the 'yes' is this idea that I am in agreement with what the person is saying. So, what ideas they're putting out there. And the 'and' is not only am I validating what you're saying, I'm in agreement with it, but I'm also going to build off of it. And that's the 'and'. So, it becomes a collaborative conversation as opposed to just like a bobblehead that's just kind of saying 'yes' but maybe not actually listening actively.

NOEL: It's a 'Yes, and…' not a 'Yes, but…' I think I remember you doing an exercise where you have people have a conversation where they have to use qualifiers other than 'yes, and…' between their statements, like 'no, and…' or 'yes, but…'

JESSE: Exactly. 

NOEL: Do you want to explain what that kind of exercise shows?

JESSE: Yes. When you take away the 'and' and you replace it with a 'but' or you take away the 'yes' and you replace it with a 'no', all of a sudden, you change the feeling in the room or the dialogue. So when you replace the 'yes' with a 'no', the person putting ideas out there becomes potentially defensive, is one feeling. So, when somebody in a meeting is offering their input and then here is a 'no', usually one of two things happen: either they become defensive or they shut down, and then you no longer receive the input from somebody who may very well have something great to contribute. And so then, you're not hearing from all the voices at the table. And then the other situation can be a 'yes, but…' which is like, "Oh, I thought they liked my idea but they didn't." So, it's a little bit condescending. It's like, "I thought they were on board, but they really weren't." 

ASHLEY: Jesse, do you want to talk about your book? 

JESSE: Sure. I have been working on another book that hopefully will be coming out this year and it's all about the concept of meetings and how they're just done really poorly. And so, the working title right now is No More **ings. So, no more meetings. And the whole idea is that each chapter will be a situation you might come where you're gathering for trying to solve a particular issue and then an experiential way to solve that problem. So, some sort of game framework or exercise to come together to make it much more meaningful, an active way to learn. And so, something where people aren't going to necessarily like roll their eyes, fall asleep, not show up at all, over time, whatever the millions of reasons that people can't stand meetings for. So, just really a different way to change things up and make it different.

ASHLEY: Outstanding. Tell me, what are the sorts of things that you do to support and encourage brainstorming.

JESSE: One, like I said, is creating that positive atmosphere in the room. The 'yes. And…' is a great tool. You don't necessarily have to use the words 'yes, and…' but it could be that mindset. So, things like incorporating other people's language, actively listening is a way to have that 'yes, and…' mindset. There's ways of kind of brainstorming by if you have people in the room who are a little bit more quiet, you could have everybody write their ideas on a piece of paper and then pass them around randomly, and then have other people read them. So, you don't know whose ideas are whose.

ASHLEY: Oh that's interesting. 

JESSE: Yeah. And that way, it gets you, again, to hear everybody's ideas. But it's a way for it to be, I don't know, just kind of quieting the bulldozer personalities, if you will, in the room and hearing from different dynamics. It just equalizes people in a different way.

NOEL: Are there some exercises that you can have a group to build up? Do you have a group of people, for example, that don't really know each other and might not be comfortable brainstorming? What are some things that you can do to sort of kickstart the tone and the feeling in the room that you need to have a safe and good session?

JESSE: I like to start with something I call Commonality Boggle where I get everybody in small groups and they have a couple of minutes to write down as many things as they have in common. So, each little group would write down as many things as every single person in that group has in common. So, maybe everybody has a sibling. If everybody in that group has a sibling, they can write it down. If everybody has traveled out of their city, they could write it down. If everybody had a job in high school, they could write it down. If one person didn't, then they can't write it down. And then at the end of a couple minutes, each group reads their list out loud. But if somebody in the other group wrote down the same thing, all the groups have to cross it out. So, they're having like a little fun competition. 

ASHLEY: That's so good. 

JESSE: After that, I'll do uniqueness. We'll do the same thing in those groups and each person in those little groups has to say something that's unique about them. And if somebody else in the group has that in common, they can't write it down. Then we have a discussion about commonalities and unique perspectives, and how all of those things are important in the room, and how those diverse perspectives and curiosity about each other and commonalities are all important in terms of brainstorming. And it kind of just gets everybody laughing and having fun but also interested in each other. And it kind of breaks down barriers very quickly, within like ten minutes. And then, I think everybody is really ready to kind of begin doing what they need to do. And then you can jump in to problem solving. 

ASHLEY: Awesome. Going back to the Angel's Advocate Card, is there ever a time when that might derail a meeting? 

JESSE: There are some times when it is appropriate to say no.  I think when you've done a lot of divergent thinking and it's time to narrow things down and you've done all of that work of brainstorming and you need to come up with a final solution, and everybody's aware of that's where you are, then I think it's OK to then say, "We're going to now edit. This is the time to edit and come up with a final solution." But that's after you've earned everybody's trust. It's after everybody's been heard and validated, and everybody's aware that that's like part of the journey that you're on and that's the space that you're in. I think when it comes at the wrong time, it's really jarring and everybody needs to know that's where you're at for it to work.

NOEL:  In the design sprints, we kind of call this divergence and convergence. There's a time where everybody goes off and brainstorms, and then it's a good time to 'yes and…' and add these kinds of things. But at some point that everybody kind of either agrees on or is facilitated to agree on, it's time to come together and pick either a course of action or the parts of this that you're actually going to move forward with. 

JESSE: Correct. And the difference is that everyone knows that they were considered. And what got them to the final solution was, like all of the things that got them to the final solution was because of everybody in the room. The way they were able to narrow it down and edit was because of everybody there. And that's why it's easier to hear those no's because they were heard. That's the difference.

NOEL: Sometimes it's not even a case of like hearing no's but it's a case where continuing to build on to the structure that you're trying to decide on, you're just getting in the way of what actually the next step is.

JESSE: Exactly. 

NOEL: What is a sign in a meeting that this process is either like working really well or not working? Is there some way that you can diagnose that the space, that people aren't contributing as well or something that might lead you to believe that you need to change the approach?

JESSE: I think when you can see people shutting down in the room. When you see like the loudest voices are the only ones getting heard, or the same three people are the only ones contributing or repeating the same things over and over again, you're not getting anywhere. I think it's up to the person facilitating to change direction and nicely move it into something else and to move it along. I think that's the role of the person leading the meeting to see that that's what's needed.

NOEL: One thing that we're also trying to ask in a lot of these is how this technique or how these ideas apply differently in a meeting where you're not co-located, where people are remote. Is there anything that makes brainstorming this kind of angel's advocacy more challenging when everyone's not in the same room? 

JESSE: Yeah. I think it's about potentially having tools like raising your hand or again, you can say that you're going to go around in each person is going to have a turn to go to 'yes, and…' So, kind of numerically pick who's going to go when in order to make sure everybody has a chance to add on to the conversation. You can also do, if you're brainstorming, you can use like a Google Doc or something where everybody can throw out ideas in an open kind of whiteboard space, too and then that's a way to add ideas. Like we talked about earlier with writing the ideas down like you would do in the room, you can do that same thing on a Google Doc or some other shared document, or in Slack, you could do the same thing where everybody's plussing each other or adding on but it's done in a way that's written. In that way, it's the same thing but you're taking out the loud voices and contributing in a way that's equalized.

ASHLEY: I've also seen Stickies.io which is a website that mimics Sticky Notes which we use all the time. And that's sort of an interesting fun one. I think people really, really like it.

JESSE: Yeah, it's a great one. I think what's nice is because so many work environments now are becoming more distributed, there's more and more really intuitive tools. And so, there are so many ways to mimic being in the room in a remote environment. And so, a lot of these exercises can be done remotely really easily. Actually some of them, it kind of makes it better in some ways. 

ASHLEY: Yeah, I think we're getting there. We certainly weren't there just a few years ago. 

JESSE: Yeah, I agree. I think some of these activities can really be done nicely. And some can't. Some really benefit from being face to face but there's certainly ways to do it.

ASHLEY: What's the best or worst meeting you've ever been a part of?

JESSE: The thing that I'm thinking of was it was just me and this woman that was interviewing me for a job. I was just mortified because it was in the beginning when I first started the Improv Effect, and I was so intimidated by this woman. I walked into the building and she's like, "Hi." She's like maybe 5' 10" and she's in a business suit. I was like sweating and then she takes me into this very large conference room, like a large conference table that could seat 40 people. 

ASHLEY: [Laughs]

JESSE: It was just me and her, and she sits. She's like, "Have a seat," and she sits me at the head of the table for 40 people and the chair is like pumped down like below. 

ASHLEY: No! 

JESSE: So, I sit down and I look like I'm about to eat the table.

ASHLEY: [Laughs]

JESSE: I was like, "Oh, my gosh! What in the world?" And so, I was literally, my eyebrows were like falling on the table. And I just started laughing. And then I looked over to the side and I just slowly pumped the thing up. [Laughs] I was like, "Well, that's a good ice breaker." And she starts laughing and I start laughing. And then I was like, "Oh, that's embarrassing." And then we just had the best conversation after that because it completely broke the ice. It turned out like that was the best thing that could have happened. So, it ended up to be a really good meeting, actually. And it's proved to me that sometimes, having those things that go wrong and just calling them out or things that break the ice that bring in laughter into a situation are the best things that can happen in meetings, humanizing a situation. And then, not being so perfectly put together are such gifts to meetings. But I will never forget being so overwhelmed. I've still never seen a conference table that long since that day. I mean, you literally could see my eyebrows above. It went from the worst thing to the best thing. I don't know if that's a good example or a bad example. 

ASHLEY: It's a great example of both. I love that you changed it around.

JESSE: Well, yeah. I was like the mistake that turned into a gift. So, that's my worst example that comes to mind. I don't know why but there you have it. Thank you, small chair and super short Jesse for working out for me.

ASHLEY: [Laughs]

NOEL: Jesse, what is one other tip that you could offer people to improve the meetings that have that they could use today or tomorrow?

JESSE: I think just listen. So simple, but people forget. The best thing you can do in a meeting is listen with your eyes and your ears because you'll get all of the things you need if you just pay attention. The people and the environment are telling you so much. If you just slow down and look around you and connect with the people there, that will go so far in every meeting, in every situation. 

NOEL: It's interesting, when we do these podcasts, we actually don't keep a visual, a video channel open which some podcasts do. But I don't specifically because I don't want us feeding off of visual cues that the audience, the eventual audio-only audience might not be able to see. That's sort of a related point. There's so much that you get from just paying attention with all of your senses in the room.

ASHLEY: That's so interesting, Noel. 

NOEL: Jesse, thank you very much for being with us and teaching us about 'yes, and…' and we're really glad to have you. 

JESSE: Thanks for having me.

NOEL: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Meetings Done Right podcast. If you would like to learn more about the Inclusion Meeting Cards, order a set of your own. To find out about other episodes of this podcast, go to MeetingsDoneRight.co. You can also find out more about this podcast by searching for Meetings Done Right wherever you listen to podcasts. Leaving a review on Apple Podcasts will help people find the show. 

The Inclusion Meeting Cards and the Meetings Done Right podcast are produced by Table XI. Table XI is one of Inc. Magazine's Best Workplaces and a top-rated custom software development company on Clutch.co. Learn more about Table XI at TableXI.com. 

Meetings Done Right is hosted by Ashley Quinto Powell and Noel Rappin, and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening.