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Sure. Thank you so much for joining us on the show. And we just wanted to start out by asking you about yourself about why you picked a journalism, and and why Russia especially. You know. Just kind of give us. Give us the overview of your of your history.

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pjotr sauer: Sure. So my name is, I'm a Russia correspondent for the Guardian. you know I've I've so quite a long history with Russia, because that's where I grew up. You know, I was.

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pjotr sauer: basically, born in Russia in 1,992

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pjotr sauer: my parents are Dutch but they were also journalists who moved to to Russia, or the what was at the time the Soviet Union in in 1,989 as journalists. And they decided to stay

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pjotr sauer: so you know, Russia was always, you know, growing up. There was everything I knew. Ii went to Russian school. My native language became Russian, you know, at home I'd speak Dutch, but otherwise, you know, I'd I had a Russian childhood

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pjotr sauer: and then eventually I did do some of my studies abroad in the Netherlands due to to get some sort of connection with with the that country. But Russia always you know, fascinated me. And I knew I always would end up back in in Russia.

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pjotr sauer: And eventually, in 1,015, I moved back to Moscow after studying abroad and started first as a young journalist at the most good times.

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pjotr sauer: Which so this Moscow based English language newspaper, which, is really training school for journalists? I think. Many, many of the journalists have now worked for bigger papers. They started at the most times, and it's like amazing place and after a few years I I joined the Guardian and unfortunately, when the war started II had to leave, and since then I've been in Amsterdam.

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pjotr sauer: This is, in short. my short bio.

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Michelle Daniel: So you started your journalist career in 2,015 already after the Crimea. So what were your expectations professionally about being a journalist in Moscow?

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pjotr sauer: Yeah, I mean

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pjotr sauer: I started

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pjotr sauer: You know, II actually never really wanted to go into journalism. Because I thought it was a bit cliche. My, my family worked in in journalism journalism. So II think many don't always want to do exactly same as your parents. So III did some work for international organizations some internships at the Dutch Embassy. I worked as diplomat for a bit. I worked at the political consultancy for a bit.

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pjotr sauer: You know everything surrounding Russia and the post Soviet region, but not in journalism. But still so at the back of my mind I always had journalism,

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pjotr sauer: and something that maybe II would end up doing. And and I think the moment I started with most of the times I you know, I realized that, you know, writing stories investigating stories was by far the thing I enjoyed most.

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pjotr sauer: So when I arrived in Moscow, I actually started a bit later, in 2,017, I came back to Moscow until I was 15, but I started with most time. So on 17. Of course it was a complete different Russia than it is today.

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pjotr sauer: you know it was it was. It was not a free country, but you could do you could do a lot you could do things that now seem completely unimaginable. Of course

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pjotr sauer: I can talk a bit more about. You know those days, if you if if you if you want

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Michelle Daniel: well, yeah, it it would be cool. Just tell about your first impressions, about being a journalist, and most probably what was the most challenging assignment for you all the complicated, the heart of funny.

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pjotr sauer: you know. I think. You know, starting 2,017. You had

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pjotr sauer:  You know you've

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pjotr sauer: was the time when when

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pjotr sauer: street protests were something that you know was considered normal and and frequent, you know every weekend for example, in the 2,019 summer protests in Moscow, every weekend you come together you cover the protests.

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pjotr sauer: You know, you see your your fellow journalist friends there?

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pjotr sauer: You know some people get arrested, but in the end you they get detained. You know, there's all these soft cat to mouse games with the police. You know it felt of course you know the seriousness of of what people were protesting.

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pjotr sauer: But you know, felt it like a really different era, where where people, you know in Moscow could still go out on the streets, and and voice their opinions and shout, and often it was a quite a uplifting atmosphere. You know. So these were, I think, in the beginning. You know, looking back on the now to think that you know 2030,000 Moscoists would come every weekend in the summer to, you know, to voice their opposition to the regime. Seems, you know, completely unimaginable right now.

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pjotr sauer: Of course. A a lot of that changed after you know, I think the the first thing that changed was Covid, which which made everything much harder, and it changed my work completely. You know, from going out and talking to people. It was much more focused on, you know, investigative stuff stuff online. And and and you know, calling and using the Internet. But I think before Covid.

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pjotr sauer: I really enjoy the the the way you could report in Moscow.

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Michelle Daniel: Interesting. Let me ask you about the protest, because it's actually interesting one of the big questions now to Russians being in Russia, why do not they protest against the war?

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Michelle Daniel: What big expectations in the beginning that. There's gonna be big protests on the streets of Moscow. But the porches.

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Michelle Daniel: thousands of people, basically pro possibly 100. So why is it massive?

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pjotr sauer: Well, I think the risks are just too big. the Neanderthis versus the reward element.

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pjotr sauer: You know. I think I don't think Russia is unique in this, in, in in that sense, you know, there are countess of authoritarian countries where a lot of people are against what's going on. But in the end. You know you choose

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pjotr sauer: your own safety and and and and when you realize that if you go out and and only voice your opinion. You know you can get up. You can get jailed for 5, 6, 7, 8 years without obvious reward. That something will change in Russia, I think, for many people. It's very discouraging. I think many people did show their position by, you know, by leaving the country by refusing to pay taxes. You know, by fleeing mobilization.

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pjotr sauer: So I think that they find they find different ways to express opinion. But I think it's it's you know it's a bit arrogant and unfair, I think, for many in the West to, you know, criticize all Russians for for not protesting. Of course I think many expected more position, and I think many in in Russia did buy into, you know, in the into the propaganda about the war.

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pjotr sauer: But you know, I think there's just a lot of people that are against the war, but

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pjotr sauer: to find it just too dangerous for various reasons, to go out and protest, and and you know I'm a journalist, I can. I I'm not supposed to judge, but if I was a Russian would I go out and protest. I'm you know. I don't know, because there's a lot of risks.

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Michelle Daniel: Yeah. Well, since you switched gears to talking about the war, where were you, you know, on February twenty-fourth, and and you know, what was it like those first days after the invasion? And how soon were you forced to, or did leave Russia.

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pjotr sauer: Ii was, you know I was behind my desk. You know I still remember.

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pjotr sauer: You know, II think I'll remember that day

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pjotr sauer: forever. You know, I think, leading up to the war.

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pjotr sauer: It's it. It started to become more real. And you know your sources are starting to tell you that it it's probably will happen. And then, the day before all you know, all all our sources said that it will happen at, you know, 20

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pjotr sauer: fourth February at 5 am.

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pjotr sauer: so we actually knew the exact timing as well, you know, it's so based on us intelligence. So then, I think I stayed up till till 2 am. And I told my colleague, Andrew Ross, at the garden to, you know, to call me

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pjotr sauer: when it happens. But of course you hope that you never receive that call. You know you hope that never happens. But then, you know I go. I fall asleep into our state. I get that call. And then and you know, you know, we're we're started.

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pjotr sauer: There was yeah devastating feeling, because you know, everything you know about your country will will change, and the way you live will change.

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pjotr sauer: And the lives, of course, for millions of Ukrainians will change forever, which which is most important in in this whole story. but yeah, but the next I don't know. Week, 2 weeks, which is constant work, you know. So you sleep a bit and you go back to to work and update the the your stories, the blogs, etc. features. So yeah, there's definitely a moment where you you know, I don't think I've ever worked as hard as those 2 weeks which kinda helped as well cope a bit with with all the

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pjotr sauer: with all the feelings of I guess, power, you know you feel powerless about this war, and and at least with the work you, you had an outlet where you could put put your.

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pjotr sauer: I don't know your your fault, team.

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Michelle Daniel: Yeah.

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pjotr sauer: And how did you, you know, with all this work like, how did you keep your your keep up your motivation, you know, cause II imagine you felt very demoralized, you know, by what's going on, and you are personally invested in Russia as well as you know Ukraine and and and the the outcome here. So how? How did you keep? How did you keep your spirits up? Beginning?

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pjotr sauer: Yeah. Where the questions whether Ukraine is the state will survive, and you know what's what's going on next is, I think, no, as a journalist there was just so much happening that that was never sort of demoralized or

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pjotr sauer: feeling like, I didn't want to work. It was more. Yeah. Coping emotionally with with the with with these events that impact, you know, just as a journalist, but as a person, as someone who's friends in Ukraine, as someone who knows the country as well. So yeah, it's something that you have to deal with. But I think, as journalists, you also know I mean the the. These are the moments. Why, you become a journalist for these, kinda you know, tragic events. But this is when you're most needed. So you definitely feel motivated, you know, to tell the world what's going on.

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Michelle Daniel: And when have you left Russia?

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pjotr sauer: I left Russia in the beginning of

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pjotr sauer: march I'm I think it's 7 or 8 march. It's all a bit of a blur that period. But at some point, you know, Russia introduced a series of laws criminalizing

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pjotr sauer: you know they call the fake news laws right? That the people who could be charged with real prison sentences for not reporting the word away. The the Kremlin wanted us to report and there was a lot of insecurity about you know. What does that mean for foreign journalists? Not just for Russian journalists?

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pjotr sauer: And I think many foreign journalists decided to leave temporarily. And you know II did, too. I flew to Istanbul first, and then to amster them my plan was to return eventually. And then.

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pjotr sauer: because other journalists started to return slowly. You know, I think, Max. And you know other other like people. You talk to the in this podcast have returned. I tried to return, but then, I was waiting for the right documents from the Foreign Ministry bit of a bureaucratic problem, and in the end I did get them. But then but then my friend Evan Ger. Scott arrested, which is.

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pjotr sauer: if I'm sorry if I'm speeding ahead. But after after that it sort of became for me clear that going back right now is not an option.

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Michelle Daniel: We will definitely talk about Evan a a bit later. But now one more question about you. So you do. Having got any messages or signals from intelligence that you have to leave, that it's not safe for you to stay. Oh, it was your decision. No, it was my decision, I think, in early March. It was such a chaotic period that

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pjotr sauer: I think the Russian intelligence had other things to do than chasing us, but you know there was a law of uncertainty whether the borders will close you know, I think we're Russian journalists. It wasn't even a question whether to leave or not, because for them it was, you know, there was 100% danger that they could be jailed, and they started jailing other journalists for us as foreign journalists. We always thought we're bit more protected.

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pjotr sauer: but I think everyone just decided that, for now it's better to to to leave and then see you know what's next. So no, I didn't. I didn't get any threats. But you know some. It was sort of the in the chaotic atmosphere of that period. It was decided. It's better to to leave, for now.

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Michelle Daniel: Do you think it's still possible to be a journalist in Russia today? You know whether it's foreign journalists or or a Russian journalist? Is is it possible?

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pjotr sauer: Well, I mean

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pjotr sauer: it's it's it's it's complicated. I think there are a few Russian journalists left. You know, a few brave friends of mine who are left, but in the end they are and they admit this. They are playing by the rules of of the Russian Government. You know, they're not calling the war to war and

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pjotr sauer: you know, being careful with with what they report, and of course, choice they make, I think in their calculation. It's better to do that, but be able to tell the story from from Russia than than to leave you know, I think there's definitely great truth in in what they say. On the other hand, you know Russian, the the rules of the government always change. So you know, if they they may. They might play by the rules today. But tomorrow's those rules are different, and they they'll get in trouble. So you know, I am worried about them.

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pjotr sauer: With foreign jurors. In a way, it's it's even trickier, you know, after the arrest of Evan.

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pjotr sauer: it. It just shows that that anyone can. They can take anyone if if they feel that's politically viable and and needed at the time, you know, if they need a new

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pjotr sauer: person to trade in in in in a in weeks or months. It doesn't really matter how you behave in Moscow. They could. They could just take you? So I think it's it's a it's a moral dilemma that many of us have. I mean, I would always like to report from the country as a journalist. You always understand what's going on better when you're inside.

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pjotr sauer: But you know you won't be able to tell your story if you're behind bars, and I think no story is worth it for you to to, you know, to be in prison. So at this point.

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pjotr sauer: it's it's a complicated. Everyone's making this own decision on

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Michelle Daniel: I have one more question on on on that topic. So I've actually met some young Russian journalists who are writing for Noega and Medusa, and you know these outlets that are considered not in alignment with Putin's you know.

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Michelle Daniel:  platform and so. But but they are still living in Moscow or Petersburg, or whatever, and they tell me that they write using a pseudonym.

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Michelle Daniel: And and and and yet, you know, I actually one of them just just came to the Us. On a State Department program and exchange program here to the University of Texas.

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And it just blew my mind like he's he's telling me like he's writing for for all of these outlets and using a different name. So like, is this actually an effective practice. I've heard that others are doing it as well. Do you know of any journalists yourself who are using pseudonyms and getting away with it?

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pjotr sauer: Yeah, I mean, II think, as a foreign journalist, that's not what we do like. We can't use pseudonism. It's just not I don't think the Guardian I don't know any big outlet that does that.

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pjotr sauer:  there's something to say for it, you know, in in in in if, of course, for journalists. And you know, writing from Medusa, it's extremely dangerous to write under their own name. It's it's actually criminal, according to Russian law, because, you know, Medusa is and a foreign agent, and and banned in Russia. So I understand why they do it.

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pjotr sauer: And I think they'll be able to get information out that we can't.

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pjotr sauer: But yeah, as I said, as a foreign jurors, we can't. We just. We're not allowed to do it. I think there's some questions about credibility as well. If you if you don't write under your own name. So it's all these sort again. Moral dilemmas

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pjotr sauer: But you know, I think these people who are still on Russian have to be extremely careful. Because, you know, the the Russian security services they're always looking for for new case start. And you know it's a machine that wants to start. It doesn't stop. And I think we're only going to like to see more arrests of of journalists, activists and human rights workers.

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Michelle Daniel: Okay, now, let's talk about Evan Gersh College, the journalist from Wall Street Journal. So what happened to him.

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pjotr sauer: Kenya.

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pjotr sauer: Yeah, what that tell us. Tell us your version, how it happened, what you remember about those days.

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Michelle Daniel: because I'm pretty sure that the that most West, like our our Western audience would probably have forgotten. So you know.

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pjotr sauer: Yeah, give us give us the details.

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pjotr sauer: Evan gesers, who is my colleague at the Moscow Times. We worked 3 years close together and became very, very close friends. He was reporting in Moscow. So he's one of the journalists who he's American, who came back after the war started. He had to write documents. He was acquitted with the Foreign Ministry and he was on a reporting trip in

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pjotr sauer: on March twenty-third. When they detained them in your canberra and charged them with espionage

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pjotr sauer: he became the first American journalist to be charged with espionage since the the end of the Cold War. His paper denied the charges. Evan denies his charges. I know that the charges are bogus, I think. Everyone who knows Evan is a journalist. No, they're bogus. Evan has never worked with the Us. State. I mean, it sounds even bizarre to talk about it. And and that's

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pjotr sauer: way yeah. And since then it's been almost 7 months Evan is spent in in in a Russian cell in Moscow. The. He's still in pre- detention, and and the Fortua. It's a prison in in Central Moscow. It's very notorious for for the way it isolates you and tries to break you mentally and physically. So it's been very tough on Evan. It's been tough on his friends and and his family.

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pjotr sauer: but did, you know, I think, by arresting him, they, the Russian authorities showed that they don't really play by any rules anymore. Foreign journalists. Back in the day they they were at a special status. They were sort of protected worst case, what would happen? You know you would be kicked out of the country. You lose your accreditation, but you could, you know.

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pjotr sauer: for majority people could do their work. I think Evans, arrest changed everything. And it seems like that he's being used as a you know poem that the Kremlin's hoping to exchange him for a real spy that that is in jail, in the Us. Or or

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pjotr sauer: anywhere else that they're looking for. So yeah, it's it's it's a very grim milestone for for Russia, unfortunately.

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Michelle Daniel: So do you think he just basically a hostage, or there is anything else behind that denial, I mean

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pjotr sauer: we don't know why exactly. They target him over other journalists. We know he's American, which makes him more valuable and very few Americans in the country at that time. American journalists. You know, everyone was a good journalist. He was going out to places. So maybe they? They decided to both. You know, catch a journalist that is exposing many problems for the Kremlin, you know, as a good journalist is, and at the same time use him as as a hostage.

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pjotr sauer: But of course, all those spy charges are completely absurd. I mean, everyone who knows Evan will will attest to that, and you know the Government has not presented any evidence yet again in his case, and I know they won't be able to so

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pjotr sauer: do you think he will be free anytime soon?

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pjotr sauer: Oh, you will be free. The question is, when you know, unfortunately it it, you know, espionage cases. Take a while. Before sentenced. Russia usually only exchanges American

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pjotr sauer: yeah, prisoners after their sentence.

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pjotr sauer: So hope we're hope you get sentence, you know, by by the end of this year, or more likely next year, and from there we hope that you know, the Us. State Department

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pjotr sauer: organize an exchange as soon as possible, but you know, I think evident we are prepared, that this won't end very quickly, but in in the end we know that. You know Russia wants to exchange him because they know he's not a spy, and there's no use for him to be in a Russian jail

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Michelle Daniel: are. Are there actual

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Michelle Daniel: negotiations happening? I mean, is the state of. Is this even on the State Department's radar? Do do you have any sense of that

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pjotr sauer: it is I mean Biden is is public. He said, that that he that that he's looking to exchange Evan as well as Paul Whelan. It's another us citizen who's been in jail for

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pjotr sauer: a bit longer for a few years in Russia, also on Espn's charges, you know, Blink and I said it a few times from the Russian side. They say they they've said it, and they sort of urge not to discuss it publicly, because negotiations negotiations happen behind closed doors. So it's definitely on the agenda is just that there are a lot of things on their agenda right now. The Us. Which you know the Middle East elections coming up.

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pjotr sauer: So you know, I think it's up to us to make sure that Evan stays in agenda, and and and that the the Us. Department. Knows that that that he needs to be free to, I mean, luckily, he works for very powerful and you know, prominent news organization that's also doing everything they can to, you know. To make sure everyone gets released.

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Michelle Daniel: Yeah. Now, few questions about future.

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Michelle Daniel: Sure.

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Michelle Daniel: what do you foresee happening to Russia in 5 and 10 years from now.

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pjotr sauer: I'm a journalist. I'm not sort of a geopolitical analyst, I think, as journalists, you always have to be careful not to make predictions. Otherwise you look stupid going forward. But you know, I think

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pjotr sauer: I think it's hard, I think.

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pjotr sauer: the system, for now looks stable. I don't see any any signs that that that the the Putin system will fall apart as long as he is.

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pjotr sauer: Ha! You know, in in good health and and in charge of the country. Of course you know bearing black swans and other events. I think, in there, if we're looking shorter term, I think everyone expects putin to run for elections. Next year. Which of course, will be not fair, and which he will win

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pjotr sauer: But I think a lot depends also on how the war in Ukraine goes. You know, I think if Ukraine manages to, you know, to make a major breakthrough that will create instability in Russia. If the war still stays in the stalemate. That's only something that's favorable for Russia.

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pjotr sauer: But I think in the end, knowing Russian and Soviet history, Russia goes to sort of these periods of relative freedom and relative on freedom. And right now we're definitely in a period of on freedom.

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pjotr sauer: So let's hope that you know it gets it's gets better, and we'll see. Serve some sort of democratization at some point, because there are a lot of young, smart Russians that that would want to see their country get get better and get more free.

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Michelle Daniel: Yeah. Speaking of these young smart Russians we had.

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Michelle Daniel: as I mentioned previously, we had a State Department exchange program for young Russian journalists actually from Russia. Yeah. And they they came here just a few months ago and talking to these people, I mean. They were literally ages 18, through 30 and

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Michelle Daniel: it. It was quite fascinating to to listen to this, you know. On the one hand, they seem so bubbly and so like happy about the way life is in Russia. But then, if you are, because there are no in Moscow or Petersburg, or or but then, on the other hand, you dig a little deeper, and then you know you, you ask them well, how do they feel about the war. How do they feel about you know their their integration with the world. And you know, they they start talking about things like, Oh.

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if they even hit like on a post that is somewhat anti putin, or something like that, like, you know. Fsb will come to their door, or or something, or or they'll see repercussions to their family, to their friends, I mean even the 18 year olds who are just just starting at, you know Hsc. Or something, or we're very. We're very wise to this. And so they all talk about how they have to practice.

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You know self censorship. I mean, they didn't use that word, but that's essentially what what they're doing. So

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Michelle Daniel: you know, with with this generation practicing self-censorship. And and this this continuing, I mean, it's kind of like a continuation from Soviet days.

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Michelle Daniel: How is Russian society going to look, you know, in in your in your journalistic view, you know. Is it? Is it going to just continue just being okay with this war being okay with the state, the status quo, this normalization of of everyday war. You know what? What is what is going to happen to Russian society?

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pjotr sauer: I think Russian society in general has been conditioned to be quiet, apolitical, you know, to to be as little involved in in, in, in state politics as possible. And if I think if we look at polls opinion polls on the war that majority of Russians say, don't they don't actually follow the war? And you know that I think it's a con a comfortable condition for many Russians, because you know, they would rather just be left alone and and not follow something that

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pjotr sauer: deep, deep inside feels extremely nasty and and uncomfortable. They know that your country is an aggressor and and has invaded another country. So I think for many. You know, this state of sort of trying to just dissociate from what's going on outside works for now.

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pjotr sauer: You know, we see that people are extremely unhappy when this state is disrupted like like we've seen during the mobilization. When Putin called up 300,000 men which is the first time. So if he actively asked Russian to participate in the war, and we saw a sort of affected head on the country, with hundreds of thousands of Russians fleeing

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pjotr sauer: and other hiding. So I think you know, as long as the Putin regime manages to to keep this sort of dissociation between the war and what's going on on this for normal people.

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pjotr sauer: Then, you know, I think I'm not seeing any big changes. But you know the I think that's what they're so scared of calling another mobilization. So I think if if if it becomes, you know, more tolerant where they a act, we ask questions to participate in something they don't actually like them. Then we might see some unrest and for young people.

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pjotr sauer: I think as long as you know, young people have

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pjotr sauer: access to to Internet, to Youtube. You know the to Vpns, they will be able to, you know. Get, you know, information, get their information same time. But we're seeing in schools is extremely worrying where rush is completely changing the education system.

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pjotr sauer: you know, increasing these soft pseudo patriotic courses and and and you know, I think that's one of the signs of the the country, of course, is is education, and I think that's definitely a worry. For now. The question is whether teachers go along with it. But if we do, you know, then we get a whole new generation. That's sort of brought up on these anti western anti liberal ideas. Which is a bit more worrying. But

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pjotr sauer: it's it's it's it's hard to say. How how? What response this of youth will have on that we'll see.

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Michelle Daniel: You mentioned that you had worked in an embassy. You did some work and such

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pjotr sauer: so I guess, putting your diplomatic hat on and and keeping in mind your your journalistic experience as well

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Michelle Daniel: you know you're as a non as a non American. What do you think the Us. Is doing wrong right now? And what should they be doing? Through, you know, either through negotiations or or discussions, and how? How should they be approaching the situation with Russia? Ukraine?

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Michelle Daniel: you know. And and also

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pjotr sauer: now this this new eruption, and with Israel Palestine, like all of it, is, is deeply entangled. So what what should the Us be doing in your in your view, I mean definitely, should try to help Russian. So society by offering runs to Russian

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pjotr sauer: journal. Young journalists, students, you know, help Russian dissidents that that want to flee. You know, Russian soldiers that they don't wanna fight, you know. It's it's a relatively cheap thing to they can do, but to really help.

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pjotr sauer: You know, smart young Russians that that don't want to be part of the putin regime. You know, I think that's definitely something they can do, I mean, on a broader level.

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pjotr sauer: you know, I think it's extremely complicated. The the the war in Ukraine at the moment. Because we've reached a stalemate. You know, I think Ukraine will say that that us should have arm them quicker that that Russia never really had any red lines.

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pjotr sauer: you know that they should have given them the long reach weapons lot quicker, the the planes quick, and that way they could have forced something. You know, that's one way of looking at it. Maybe they're right

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pjotr sauer: same time, you know, Biden says that he was. You know, he's trying to be careful. So you know, it's it's it's complicated. I don't think there's an easy answer. You know, but I think it's what they can do is, you know, keep keep the points of contacts open with the Kremlin and and with people around Putin who who might start, you know, be so unhappy with the fact that this war is going on for so long and who are also might be looking at regime change from within.

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Michelle Daniel:  Think we don't have much time left.

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Michelle Daniel: So along these same lines. Do you think, then, that the Western world should be supportive of Russians who are immigrating? And also even, you know, maybe

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Michelle Daniel: more. It's it's a it's a more difficult question. But what about the Russian soldiers who defect and who battlefield? II know you wrote a piece about that recently. And so I mean, what? What is your view? And and how should America and the West in general, you know, treat Russian immigrants?

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pjotr sauer: Yeah, I mean, I think you'd or is the difference between soldier and emigrate in general? But yeah, as I said, you know, I think

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pjotr sauer: those that. That's that actively. Leave the war, you know, because they're against the the regime. They should get the West Western help, you know, at least visa support, and you know other ways for them to to to to leave ease more easily. Europe recently banned

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pjotr sauer: Russian cars from leaving the country, which I think, was quite silly, because, you know, it prevents a lot of Russians from from leaving the country by by car. With soldiers. I mean, this is a huge question. I think many post themselves.

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pjotr sauer: you know, soldier by definition, is not a a war criminal in in no war. If a soldier wants to leave the war, especially if it's been mobilized against his will, you know, or a contract soldier, and you couldn't leave I don't think these you know, I think they should go through procedures of being checked whether they've committed any war crimes.

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pjotr sauer: But if a soldier defects. II think you should be given, you know, by by international law you should be giving a save save heaven, and and and then gone. Go through all the checks. But it's definitely a complicated issue, and I understand why it's very emotional for Ukraine through.

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pjotr sauer: You know, they don't want to see these Russian defectors be glorified either. You know, because these are people that invaded that country. So it's a extremely sensitive subject, but I think it's clear that every soldier that isn't fighting in in in Ukraine means that he's not killing any Ukrainians which which

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pjotr sauer: you know is the main goal of. I think the West and and Ukraine?

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Michelle Daniel: Yeah, actually forgot to ask this question earlier

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Michelle Daniel: when we talked about the event.

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Michelle Daniel: Have you personally ever been interrogated by Russian intelligence, because garden journalists have a heater of being interrogated in.

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Michelle Daniel: No, I don't.

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pjotr sauer: No, I haven't been interrogated. by brushing

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pjotr sauer: Fs besodges, or at least, not that I know of.

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pjotr sauer: Yeah, we I mean, I think everyone's been harassed and followed before. You know, when you're on reporting trips outside of Moscow. They follow you a bit. But no, personally, I've not been harassed or interrogated.

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Michelle Daniel: Okay, and and generally, how hard was it to for you to work with sources.

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pjotr sauer: with people talking to you off the record in in Russia. I was way way easy before the war before it became, you know, criminal offense to talk to Western journalists. So now it's much more complicated. Back in the day you could really talk to a lot of people who were unhappy for for various reasons, you know whether talking to doctors during the Covid crisis.

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pjotr sauer: They're they're being forced to work in very dangerous circumstances. You know, or or just people in complaining about corruption, or, you know, regular Russians it was. People were less scared doing protest. People would give their full name now, experts would also, you know, give, you know, experts closer to Kremlin would be open to talk to you now. It's completely different now. It's very hard to get people on the record. You know. Sometimes you also think yourself whether, even if someone wants to go on the record, whether it's

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pjotr sauer: worth it because you don't want to get them in trouble. You know there's that extra layer of responsibility. So doing. Journalism is much, much harder now than than it used to be for sure, and trying to do honest journalism.

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Michelle Daniel: Yeah, no.

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Michelle Daniel: yeah. The last question, yeah. When do you think you can come back to Rush and what should happen?

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pjotr sauer: Oh, you know, I hope as soon as possible. But II need to need to know that that it's safe for me that it's not something that I just want to do, for you know, for journalist reasons, but also just, you know, it's it's it's justified by by the security, and that it's in the country.

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pjotr sauer: I don't know whether it's under putin or not under putin. It's hard for them to say, you know, Russia is surprisingly 4 but for now I think I'm just trying to take it a step up by the time, and not think too much ahead.

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pjotr sauer: Alright. Well, Pyotr, thank you so much for your time. It has been amazing getting to talk to you and hearing your insights, and we wish you all the best.

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pjotr sauer: It was. It was very interesting.

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pjotr sauer: Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot. Yeah. I'll take you down.

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Michelle Daniel: Yes, please. Thank you. Thank you. This is awesome. Appreciate it.