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[Applause]

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[Music]

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next up we have Mike and Tor think we

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are your slides up here Mike and T work

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for a law firm that is defending

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the guy who was running uh Bitcoin fog

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it was a it was the Bitcoin

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mixer and uh they they have come

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to realize that chain analysis and the

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chain analysis

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ecosystem may not be looking out for all

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of our best interests so they're they're

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going to be doing a a fantastic talk on

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that and then we're also going to have

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them on the Chain analysis panel which I

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I think is tomorrow I think that's

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tomorrow so guys come on up really

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appreciate it guys like I said if you

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get that cup you get coffee all weekend

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you're gonna need it you're gonna need

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the all you can drink coffee I guarantee

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it uh this is gonna be Marathon uh thank

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you guys take it away do we have two

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working microphones how how do you guys

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want to do

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it all right y

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hey everybody thank you for coming out

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tonight to hear this important case and

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first off I'd like to clear something up

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Doug said that he uh he was the operator

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of Bitcoin fog I'd like to say that he

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was not the operator of Bitcoin fog this

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story is how an innocent user of a

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mixing service can get caught up in the

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apparatus of the United States

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government courtesy of chainalysis and

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wind up in an absolute Kafka s nightmare

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my name is Mike Hazard this is tor Ean

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the story about Roman

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Sterling and um there's not a single

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piece of evidence nothing in anything

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that we've been given by the United

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States government that ever shows Roman

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Sterling off operating BL so how did we

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get here um

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this starts from 2003 when Roman

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Sterling off was 14 years old and he

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moves from Russia to Sweden with his mom

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leaving his dad behind and I mentioned

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that because the United States

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government was for a while obsessed with

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Roman being a Russian and everything in

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this case was Russian this Russian that

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and this case actually starts at the

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national security desk in Philadelphia

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the Russian

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division but jump forward a little bit

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to about 200920 Roman is an early

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adopter of Bitcoin um in January 1st 20

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akti now akti omu means happy new year

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in

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Japanese and this is the pseudonym that

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was used for the creator of Bitcoin fog

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to promote his new mixing service on the

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Bitcoin talk forms and it's ACR of the

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evidence that the government uses the

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say that Aku is communicating and

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sharing knowledge with the darket

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marketplaces darket very scary right

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like a Goro Silk Road and the like this

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is where the criminality comes from the

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mixing

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services so one thing about Amo his name

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I'm never gonna remember blow that at

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trial um that's happy news in Japanese

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you might notice that there's some Mount

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gaau accounts up there well Roman

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because early on there's really no

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exchanges he's he gets a m Mount GA

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account early on they're taking all of

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their like IP address matches saying

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that basically what they say is that he

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used the same IP address as the shint

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hotmail.com email address which actually

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if you look at the Microsoft search War

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returns registered in someone else's

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name a person named Andrew White in San

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Francisco who did the crypto

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and there's all this stuff in in in Sky

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throughout case you have evidence

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pointing to other people but the

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investigation be with Roman as a Target

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and the confirmation bias perpetrates

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and lies throughout the investigation

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pain the

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investigation so Mount goau which

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everybody probably knows is run out of

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Japan and was run by somebody named Mark

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carpus

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um Mark carpus interestingly enough is

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is um arrested in Japan and convicted

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for um falsifying mount gox data so

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mount gax data we have in this case is

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all on spreadsheets and we read if

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you're familiar with Andy Greenberg's

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book that just came out tracers on the

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dark the global hunt for the crime Lords

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of cryptocurrency some crap like that um

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in it there's a story about r g

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everyone's favorite firm Jan Allison

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because this place is very much the

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story of CH analysis is rise and how

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they go from a company with a zero

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dollar relation to the Black Box

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government surveillance firm they are

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today with an 8.6 billion doll valuation

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in 2014 Michael Groner is over in Japan

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he's working on the mount go hacks and

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um Mark capis who the government just

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refused to sub for today

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um gives Michael grer a thumb drive of

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all the mount go data Michael grer looks

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at it it says there's missing files here

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there's files that have been deleted

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this data is corrupt and he says what's

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up with this do you what's up with this

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and he oh yeah our servers got hacked

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they physically got access and Michael

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gruner asks him do you have a backup of

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the data and he says

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no okay well this mount gaau

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data almost the entire prod of the

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government's because that's what they

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use to say that Roman is using to talkit

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talk and

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when when this Amad am whatever Happy

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New Year's on he's talk he talks about

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running Bitcoin TR and how they keep

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silver logs how he's got a whole staff

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they do all sorts of stuff well you

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guessed it there's no server logs in

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this case there's nothing there's no

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servers there's no

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Communications there's nothing we're a

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little bit mystified how they even

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called in on Roman like one of our

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guesses is that Maris is trying to throw

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somebody under the bus and just like

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grab somebody randomly from out gox well

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it does appear it does appear that the

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investigation started with a Target on

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Roman's back because this investigation

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starts at the Philadelphia desk of the

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Russia Security Office of the United

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States

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the agent on that case who initiated it

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and sent the intelligence love to the

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FBI internet targeting investigation for

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money Laing criminal Enterprise money

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and listing Roman as one of the people

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who they think might have done it would

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set up and and set around by a woman

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named Katherine helker now this is in

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2014 now in 2023 cther pelker is the

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lead prosecutor on this case so this

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puts us in an interesting position

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because in the United States you can't

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call a prosecutor as a witness you have

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a right to call an FBI agent who's your

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accuser under the Sixth Amendment as a

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witness so what happens with a person

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who original and originating FBI officer

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your accuser who then goes to the law

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school where the case is transferred to

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to Washington she went to Georgetown and

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then she gets submitted as a lawyer and

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becomes a prosecutor on this case Cas is

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her baby and she's been building her

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career on this on the back of an men so

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in the United States you you can't you

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represent somebody as a lawyer in a case

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that you're material fact

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witnessing every I've been doing

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computer law for 10 years uh defending

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people accused of computer crimes in

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Federal Criminal Court and in every

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single case I've had I have

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cross-examined the FBI agent who

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investigated the case so kathern Alden

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pelker who is now the lead prosecutor on

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this case was the originating FBI

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investigative agent and so when we first

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met with the government uh I looked at

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her and I said you can't be a prosecutor

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on this case you're a material fact

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witness and she just looked at me and

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said no no and I don't know what to say

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to that so right now there like a big

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battle about whether or not she's even

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gonna uh testify but it's just one of

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the like really the numerous insane

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things about this case and it goes on

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and on there's so many things like this

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that just do not add up other than the

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fact that everybody involved with it

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from the prosecutors the government

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agents to chainalysis have been doing

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this entire and conducting this entire

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investigation and prosecution with

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dollar signs and stars in their eyes

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yeah so chain analysis comes in in 2015

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this is one of the first cases that they

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ever work on and if you know anything

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about chain analysis the way that

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they've made their money essentially

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they've built relationships with the

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United States Department of Justice

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which has a $44 billion budget and the

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serious crime office in the UK which has

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a a similarly huge budget and so you see

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them working on this case but one of the

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interesting things to me is they're

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working on this case they're working the

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relationships um it starts with Treasury

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and it goes from Treasury and the IRS

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over to the FBI because helker brings it

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over there is that they're talking to

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Andy Greenberg and basically the press

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the entire time which is a big no no on

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appending shal criminal investigation

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this has not gone to trial yet goes to

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trial in September and

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um when wman is finally arrested in 2021

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after what is like seven years of

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Investigation oh by the way they uh in

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2017 Roman goes to the United States he

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goes to Miami with his girlfriend they

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put him under physical surveillance you

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know they put him under wir tap and then

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they do something called a pen trap

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which is where they they catch all your

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internet signal traffic you know what

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evidence they got there of him operating

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Bitcoin fog nothing absolutely nothing

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so fast forward to 2021 when they decide

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to arrest him at the

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airport

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um doj always does press releases when

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they arrest somebody but before the doj

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press release comes out uh the Wired

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Magazine runs an exclusive because

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they've all been talking to Andy

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Greenberg because they've all got stars

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in their eyes and that press release

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features Jonathan Lan who's can't

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remember he Co or CTO co-founder of

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chainalysis Michael grer and Coy even

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though that chain Alys has been working

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on this case since 2015 he doesn't say

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oh you know this is a victory for

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chainalysis he doesn't even mention that

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chainalysis has been working on the case

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what he says is this proves that this

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type of blockchain forensics Works about

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uh four weeks later they do a Series E

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fundraising around for $150 million and

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if you look at doj press releases and

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you match them up with chainalysis

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fundraising rounds you see that there's

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a correlation right and if you're a

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company this is kind of obvious that is

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trying to sell software uh tracing

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software to a big client like the United

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States government you're not going to

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sell any if you're not successful so I

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00:12:21,279 --> 00:12:25,560
think one of the key problems with this

277
00:12:23,639 --> 00:12:27,720
case is that the profit motive has

278
00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:30,320
distorted everything in it and they've

279
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:34,560
just turned their eyes away from

280
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:36,240
anything that contracts them and I think

281
00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:37,519
they thought that when they arrested him

282
00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,639
or at some point they would find

283
00:12:37,519 --> 00:12:42,240
evidence that he was operating bitcorn

284
00:12:39,639 --> 00:12:44,240
jog but they've absolutely absolutely

285
00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,279
failed in that they've fallen on their

286
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:49,440
face every single time when Romans in

287
00:12:47,279 --> 00:12:51,560
Miami in 2017 they have them under

288
00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:54,519
pentra they have them under surveillance

289
00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:56,440
they fly nothing when Roman lands in LAX

290
00:12:54,519 --> 00:12:58,199
and sees all of his computers they get

291
00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,079
his backup codes for his crypto accounts

292
00:12:58,199 --> 00:13:03,120
they have a h huge bag with all of his

293
00:13:00,079 --> 00:13:05,480
hard drives in it nothing and you see

294
00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,880
this in the discovery every time the

295
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,079
government thinks they're gonna make

296
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,360
something you know if they think they're

297
00:13:08,079 --> 00:13:11,160
gonna find something they're gonna find

298
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:14,240
the golden knife to be able to prove

299
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:16,880
that he ran Bitcoin fog they fall flat

300
00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,560
on their face and it's repeated times in

301
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,279
the discovery where we have agents

302
00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:21,720
working on the case particularly a

303
00:13:20,279 --> 00:13:24,680
character named Aaron

304
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:27,000
BCE and every time they fall on the face

305
00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:30,320
you know and he starts to question do we

306
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:33,720
have the wrong guy investigation

307
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:35,959
misguided well yes it is but they

308
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:38,160
continue anyways because this book is

309
00:13:35,959 --> 00:13:41,560
being made because they're getting jobs

310
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:43,920
at analysis and it just goes on and on

311
00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:45,560
and on and and the victim of this entire

312
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,639
insestuous relationship between CH

313
00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:50,160
analysis and the federal government has

314
00:13:47,639 --> 00:13:52,240
resulted in an innocent man being locked

315
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,759
up pre-trial for over two years waiting

316
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:57,759
his day of Court eron Bice is one of my

317
00:13:54,759 --> 00:13:59,560
favorite parts of this case and the the

318
00:13:57,759 --> 00:14:02,800
the the doubt that he was expressing

319
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:04,759
that Michael's talking about see him he

320
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,800
he there there he's like oh my God you

321
00:14:04,759 --> 00:14:09,240
know what if what if what long here what

322
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,480
if it's this other person that we're

323
00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,839
looking at has a lot of I'm not gonna

324
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,839
look at it I'm not gonna look at and he

325
00:14:13,839 --> 00:14:16,279
does something else it's very

326
00:14:14,839 --> 00:14:18,360
interesting and I've never seen in AAL

327
00:14:16,279 --> 00:14:20,240
criminal Kings before he's working for

328
00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:25,399
the IRS as a criminal investigator and

329
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:28,000
he starts a private company called exit

330
00:14:25,399 --> 00:14:29,600
LLC and it works on this case and we

331
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,680
can't find any contracts they're not

332
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,920
giving us any information on it but when

333
00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,880
Wellman's arrested and the press release

334
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,920
comes

335
00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:39,600
out uh the Press relas thanks all these

336
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,680
government agencies all these you blah

337
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,839
blah blah blah blah at the top of the

338
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,839
thank yous like you know idle page

339
00:14:43,839 --> 00:14:50,399
billing as they would say in the theater

340
00:14:45,839 --> 00:14:51,839
um it thanks exent LLC well guess what

341
00:14:50,399 --> 00:14:54,519
happens five months afterwards

342
00:14:51,839 --> 00:14:56,880
chainalysis bies exent they're an

343
00:14:54,519 --> 00:14:58,680
undisclosed sum which we think is

344
00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,240
probably millions of dollars and exent

345
00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,839
now has a $10 million web stream and uh

346
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:07,480
from the United States government and

347
00:15:02,839 --> 00:15:10,360
chenis has about a $330 million Revenue

348
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:12,600
stream and it's worth 8.6 billion

349
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:15,440
dollars as the last accounting and

350
00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:17,240
chainal is also hires one of the

351
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:20,720
prosecutors on this case who is another

352
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:24,160
senior legal and lier Julie

353
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:25,360
Le so going back to what kind of

354
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,040
evidence is the government building

355
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:30,160
their case on they're claiming that

356
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:33,680
Roman in 2011 Reg the domain name to the

357
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:35,160
Bitcoin fog.com website not illegal and

358
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,040
the statute of limitations on what

359
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,639
they're they're charging them with is

360
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,519
five years so it's six years outside of

361
00:15:38,639 --> 00:15:43,880
the statute of limitations even if

362
00:15:40,519 --> 00:15:46,000
somehow you construe it as illegal which

363
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,240
I don't understand how you could um the

364
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,480
other thing they're saying he did is

365
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:52,839
they're saying that he sent some

366
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:55,079
transactions uh to bitcoin fog like

367
00:15:52,839 --> 00:15:57,839
they're calling them beta transactions

368
00:15:55,079 --> 00:16:01,160
before uh the coin fog was announced to

369
00:15:57,839 --> 00:16:03,440
the public in oer 2011 but uh the

370
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,079
tracing on that a complete [ __ ] mess

371
00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:08,000
and everybody who youve had look at it

372
00:16:05,079 --> 00:16:09,319
says this just not interesting we're

373
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,920
working with some very competent

374
00:16:09,319 --> 00:16:12,759
blockchain experts and every time they

375
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,880
take a look at the evidence in this case

376
00:16:12,759 --> 00:16:16,800
and every time they take a look at the

377
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,959
work analysis is done they're coming up

378
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,839
to us and they're saying this is

379
00:16:17,959 --> 00:16:23,279
ridiculous this is completely false this

380
00:16:19,839 --> 00:16:24,560
is misguided this is not correct and so

381
00:16:23,279 --> 00:16:27,279
the

382
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:30,880
other piece of evidence that they say

383
00:16:27,279 --> 00:16:32,399
that they have is in 2014 Roman he's

384
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,680
been working for a Swedish marketing

385
00:16:32,399 --> 00:16:35,759
company right he works for this

386
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:38,560
marketing company uh doing internet

387
00:16:35,759 --> 00:16:41,279
stuff uh bitcoin's appreciating enough

388
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:45,279
so he can quit his job so he quits his

389
00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:46,399
job and um he is a user of Bitcoin fog

390
00:16:45,279 --> 00:16:48,600
because somebody tells him at one of the

391
00:16:46,399 --> 00:16:50,639
meetups you should do this for privacy

392
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,560
and security concerns and even

393
00:16:50,639 --> 00:16:54,600
chainalysis and let this report CH

394
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,639
analysis has this report that says 90%

395
00:16:54,600 --> 00:17:00,240
of people who use mixers use them for

396
00:16:56,639 --> 00:17:02,560
legitimate privacy reasons so he takes

397
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,839
the the the Bitcoin he's accumulated

398
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:07,240
right and Bitcoin that he bought with

399
00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:09,039
his paycheck which the government knew

400
00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,199
nothing about his job or anything his

401
00:17:09,039 --> 00:17:12,640
paycheck which is like bizarre too

402
00:17:11,199 --> 00:17:14,799
basically this entire there's no

403
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,240
eyewitnesses in this case everything in

404
00:17:14,799 --> 00:17:18,959
this case is people sitting in a desk

405
00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:21,000
6,000 miles away from Sweden so he

406
00:17:18,959 --> 00:17:24,679
starts coming some of that money and

407
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:27,799
putting it to a kyc kraken account it

408
00:17:24,679 --> 00:17:30,520
has his name it has his ID and he starts

409
00:17:27,799 --> 00:17:32,039
to inst as his regular crypto account he

410
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,960
had Consolidated all the different

411
00:17:32,039 --> 00:17:36,080
wallets that he had put them through

412
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,039
Bitcoin fog and into his Kraken account

413
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,840
between 2014

414
00:17:38,039 --> 00:17:43,039
2015 now this Kraken account was seized

415
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,840
by the US government and they refused to

416
00:17:43,039 --> 00:17:46,480
give it up to him to pay for his lawyers

417
00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,360
this is the whole other part of the the

418
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,120
case so this cracken account the

419
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:52,000
government is saying because it came

420
00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:53,880
from Bitcoin fog and we can say it show

421
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,400
you to the chainalysis reactor software

422
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,080
that it came from the Bitcoin fla

423
00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:01,120
cluster like what's a cluster right

424
00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,159
cluster [ __ ] if you ask me and uh

425
00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:04,919
they're saying that because he sent his

426
00:18:02,159 --> 00:18:07,400
money through Bitcoin fog that that's

427
00:18:04,919 --> 00:18:09,320
per that he was getting the service fees

428
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:12,159
now take a look at how much money was

429
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,760
going through Bitcoin fog it's net worth

430
00:18:12,159 --> 00:18:15,799
the amount of money that's in that kyc

431
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:19,840
Kraken account should be astronomical

432
00:18:15,799 --> 00:18:22,080
over 96 billion dollar you knowly modest

433
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,799
it's less than $2 million and he and got

434
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,880
it because Bitcoin had appreciated from

435
00:18:23,799 --> 00:18:27,880
2011 through

436
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,360
20145 now when you take a look at the

437
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,559
nature of the cing account look at the

438
00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:33,200
transactions on it you can see that it

439
00:18:31,559 --> 00:18:34,799
very clearly shows somebody who is

440
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,039
living off the appreciation of their

441
00:18:34,799 --> 00:18:39,120
wealth at the beginning there's some

442
00:18:37,039 --> 00:18:40,919
deposits in deposit deposit deposit

443
00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:42,520
deposit right and then you can see him

444
00:18:40,919 --> 00:18:43,960
when he quits his job start withdrawing

445
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,400
from it he starts living off for that

446
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,280
Bitcoin and the appreciation when when

447
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,600
the amet starts to go down a little bit

448
00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,120
around 2017 and he's not accumulating

449
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,799
any more Bitcoin he starts to get

450
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:55,840
worried you know he's like he starts

451
00:18:53,799 --> 00:18:58,520
trading it and then around 2017 you

452
00:18:55,840 --> 00:19:00,280
start to see the trades right so all the

453
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:02,360
evidence is completely consistent with

454
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,039
Roman's story that he had put his own

455
00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:06,799
money into the Kraken account and was

456
00:19:04,039 --> 00:19:08,880
living off of it now in his trading is

457
00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:11,080
working out he begins a couple of

458
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:13,480
businesses he starts a music studio in

459
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:16,440
his hometown of Gothenburg Sweden he

460
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:18,919
starts a VPN business with servers in

461
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,720
Romania and the government found out

462
00:19:18,919 --> 00:19:22,720
about these servers and it's one of

463
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,840
those moments in the case where the

464
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,159
government Falls flat on its base once

465
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,760
again they go to Romania they seize the

466
00:19:27,159 --> 00:19:29,919
servers you can see in their indications

467
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,080
they're all excited they're like we're

468
00:19:29,919 --> 00:19:33,640
going to get the Bitcoin Fox Serv we're

469
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,280
going to be able to prove that he

470
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:39,559
operated Bitcoin fog and then it comes

471
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:41,880
back with the the relatively lame VPN uh

472
00:19:39,559 --> 00:19:44,640
business it kind of go anywhere and once

473
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:47,360
again the government just Falls B on

474
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,919
space so how do we end up with Roman

475
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:53,840
sitting in jail for two and a half years

476
00:19:49,919 --> 00:19:56,480
awaiting trial in Washington DC a town

477
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:59,080
where he's never set foot in he's never

478
00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,799
done business in and he's got no family

479
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,960
and friends in and this is where

480
00:20:00,799 --> 00:20:05,039
everybody in this room who's involved

481
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,520
with any kind of digital currency this

482
00:20:05,039 --> 00:20:10,640
is where you should be worried is scary

483
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:13,440
because it could be anybody in this road

484
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:15,080
what they do is they decide in 2019

485
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,960
after spending millions of this

486
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:20,720
investigation and going nowhere they

487
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:23,880
decide some IRS agents decide all right

488
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:27,280
we're going to go mix some government

489
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,880
Bitcoin or Bitcoin fog from Washington

490
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,640
DC so they

491
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,480
they interact with whatever the Bitcoin

492
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,159
what they think is Bitcoin fog help desk

493
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:37,000
or whatever they send a message that's

494
00:20:34,159 --> 00:20:39,240
basically like oh hi I we like to laer

495
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,520
some drug money we just sold some Molly

496
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:46,039
is your mixing site a really good site

497
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:48,880
to mix this drug money on no response

498
00:20:46,039 --> 00:20:51,960
they mixed the money uh they put it back

499
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,760
in the government wallet and two years

500
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:56,760
go

501
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:58,880
by and uh the government gets an alert

502
00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:01,000
that Roman who is now concerned about

503
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:04,000
his future because of the volatility of

504
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,520
Bitcoin and decides that okay you know

505
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,320
he's turning when he's like 30 turning

506
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:10,440
30 like I need to get a backup career or

507
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,320
something in case you know everything

508
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,799
falls apart so we decided this K to

509
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,159
become he wants to become a commercial

510
00:21:13,799 --> 00:21:18,400
airline pilot so he signs up for a

511
00:21:16,159 --> 00:21:21,679
flight school intensive in

512
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,080
California he flies to California he

513
00:21:21,679 --> 00:21:25,559
lands at

514
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:27,039
LAX FBI agents are walking down the

515
00:21:25,559 --> 00:21:28,320
aisle on the plane and you know he

516
00:21:27,039 --> 00:21:30,760
doesn't think it's for him of of course

517
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,840
when they get to his seat Roman will he

518
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,840
come with us you know put the cuffs on

519
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,559
him take him to a back room and LAX and

520
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,520
start accusing him all these crimes that

521
00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:42,480
he's committed he's like what the [ __ ]

522
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:44,559
what the [ __ ] is this you know and all

523
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,400
of this was based on these government

524
00:21:44,559 --> 00:21:48,760
transactions these IRS transactions

525
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:51,320
because the United States is trying to

526
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:55,039
expand its jurisdiction for criminal

527
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:56,799
charges through the internet globally

528
00:21:55,039 --> 00:21:58,720
they're saying that they interact with

529
00:21:56,799 --> 00:22:00,000
your website they're sitting in DC and

530
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,159
you happen to be flying to the United

531
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:06,120
States that they can take you arrest you

532
00:22:03,159 --> 00:22:06,120
and put you on trial in

533
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:16,080
DC do you love coffee and Monera as much

534
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:18,400
as we do consider making gratuitous dorg

535
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,520
your daily cup pay with Monera for

536
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,840
premium fresh beans and if you like what

537
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:25,279
you taste send a digital cash tip

538
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,720
directly to the farmers that made it

539
00:22:25,279 --> 00:22:28,520
possible use Monera to buy gifts this

540
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,360
year

541
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:33,760
everyone has coffee drinkers on their

542
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:38,760
list for limited time only get 10% off

543
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:41,159
of 3 6 and 12mth gratuit us.org coffee

544
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:44,330
subscriptions proceeds help us grow this

545
00:22:41,159 --> 00:22:47,480
channel gratuitous and

546
00:22:44,330 --> 00:22:47,480
[Music]

547
00:22:50,159 --> 00:22:54,600
Monero and that's a little

548
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:57,360
constitutionally problematic very

549
00:22:54,600 --> 00:23:00,720
constitutionally problematic for an US

550
00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:02,120
Constitution nerds like me um there's

551
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,880
something in the United States

552
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:08,039
Constitution called The Venue Clauses

553
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,880
and what those Clauses say that uh they

554
00:23:08,039 --> 00:23:12,760
say that any federal crial trial has to

555
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:15,039
be this in the state and the district

556
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,559
where the crime occurred and the reason

557
00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:18,480
that the framers put that in the United

558
00:23:16,559 --> 00:23:20,760
States Constitution is in during the

559
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,919
Revolutionary War the British crown was

560
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,880
arresting American revolutionaries in

561
00:23:22,919 --> 00:23:28,000
Philadelphia and then putting them on

562
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:31,039
trial in London when you get a very very

563
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,120
very different jury right but so what

564
00:23:31,039 --> 00:23:34,000
the United States government is

565
00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:35,600
essentially claiming in this case is

566
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,880
basically what Mike just said Universal

567
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,640
jurisdiction over the Internet for any

568
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:43,360
prosecutor who logs on to the internet

569
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:46,520
goes to your website or whatever or not

570
00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:48,240
even your we TI get to your website and

571
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:51,320
you don't even know about it and then

572
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:53,480
you go L at a US airport and you jail

573
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:56,400
for two and a half years pre-trial like

574
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,440
K now the United States there's only two

575
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,240
reasons that you can be held with or

576
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:03,159
held pre-trial incarcerate incarceration

577
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,840
the first is that you're a threat to the

578
00:24:03,159 --> 00:24:06,640
community commit a very violent Act and

579
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,720
the government's worried that you're

580
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,000
gonna go out and do it again or hurt

581
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,240
somebody else you know they can detain

582
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:13,559
you and not give you Bond the second

583
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,960
reason is that they're considered a

584
00:24:13,559 --> 00:24:19,679
Flight Risk in this case the government

585
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:22,880
in the bond hearing said Roman is a

586
00:24:19,679 --> 00:24:25,320
Flight Risk why oh because he had four

587
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,279
passports on him now any of you who are

588
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,320
familiar with either Russia or Sweden

589
00:24:27,279 --> 00:24:30,440
know that

590
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,960
in Russia you're given two passports one

591
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,480
for internal travel between the

592
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:37,039
different oblas and the second distinct

593
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,640
passport for international travel in

594
00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:39,840
Sweden they're kind of internationally

595
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,320
oriented you know they want to make sure

596
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,320
that their citizens can go visit any

597
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,120
country that they want and please to so

598
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,159
they give their citizens a passport as

599
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:48,440
well as a backup passport in case you

600
00:24:47,159 --> 00:24:50,399
want to go to let's say a country like

601
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,640
Saudi Arabia around and go to Israel you

602
00:24:50,399 --> 00:24:54,600
can use a different passport so all four

603
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,760
of these passports were completely

604
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,840
legitimate and the government could have

605
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,480
found this out simp by checking to see

606
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,320
if they're real by reaching out to

607
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:06,120
Sweden reaching out to Russia they chose

608
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:08,799
not to do that they told the court that

609
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:11,399
the passports were fake and I think that

610
00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:14,559
typifies their entire approach to this

611
00:25:11,399 --> 00:25:17,000
case where they're desperate and they

612
00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:19,440
need to play dirty pool and that's what

613
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,760
we're dealing with every step of the way

614
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,120
through the case before I mentioned

615
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,399
earlier Mr deated Mark carpus because we

616
00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:27,559
need his testimony at the dber hearing

617
00:25:25,399 --> 00:25:30,559
which is on the validity of the evidence

618
00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:31,840
of government use that trial and they

619
00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:35,080
say

620
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:38,360
accept supr chysis SCE code will refuse

621
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:40,039
to give it to us that we tell Miss toer

622
00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:42,279
that you're a material fact witness in

623
00:25:40,039 --> 00:25:46,000
this case you're the initiating FBI

624
00:25:42,279 --> 00:25:48,320
officer who starts this invation Roman

625
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:51,080
confirmation ball rolling with this

626
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,840
investigation again sandbagged nothing

627
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,720
we Suba Jonathan Levan and Michael

628
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,720
Groner and CH Al's lawyers who were

629
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,240
fighting with them on this too told us

630
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,080
that they're basically too important to

631
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,760
testify at a Federal Criminal tribe try

632
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,440
to get the money out the money that was

633
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,559
seized from Roman's tracking account

634
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,960
show them the evidence of the how was

635
00:26:07,559 --> 00:26:10,159
deposit deposit deposit you know

636
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,960
withdraw withdrawal gets worried that

637
00:26:10,159 --> 00:26:14,760
it's losing starts trading again the

638
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,640
court and the and the government says

639
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,440
that you know it can't be released now

640
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,640
one thing did come out of that here Amil

641
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,960
one thing that I think everybody in this

642
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,480
room is going to be interested in it was

643
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,200
the first time that an article three

644
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:28,159
judge looked at the evidence around

645
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,880
mixing services and said mixing

646
00:26:28,159 --> 00:26:31,799
per se without anything more it's

647
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,880
completely legal in the United

648
00:26:31,799 --> 00:26:37,039
States that's big it's the first time

649
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,399
that a judge or any government officer

650
00:26:37,039 --> 00:26:41,559
has come through and actually defined

651
00:26:38,399 --> 00:26:44,039
and said mixing is

652
00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:45,919
legal you need more you need more you

653
00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:48,559
need to be mixing illegal funds for it

654
00:26:45,919 --> 00:26:50,279
to be illegal that that that was a big

655
00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:53,080
thing and I can Al you can also see the

656
00:26:50,279 --> 00:26:57,000
judges skepticism um about the

657
00:26:53,080 --> 00:27:00,399
government's case but uh he had to just

658
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:02,080
protect the reasons assume that rman was

659
00:27:00,399 --> 00:27:03,679
the operator Bitcoin fog for the

660
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:07,440
purposes of that decision but it's going

661
00:27:03,679 --> 00:27:08,720
to be a very different standard at trial

662
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,760
but uh one of the reasons we've been

663
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,320
going around is because they seized all

664
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:16,120
this money we're doing this case with

665
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,399
absolutely uh no money but you know so

666
00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:20,240
lot I'm committed to it and that's what

667
00:27:17,399 --> 00:27:24,000
we've been doing our cases for years and

668
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:26,640
um so anything anybody could do to help

669
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:29,399
fund woman's defense some the appreciate

670
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,720
we did get um what's called criminal

671
00:27:29,399 --> 00:27:34,840
justice act funding which is like Cut

672
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:36,120
Rate funding and so I was all excited

673
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,039
about this and I'm doing all the

674
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:43,320
paperwork and then they told me you know

675
00:27:39,039 --> 00:27:44,440
um probably get paid maybe after trial

676
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,440
I'm like that's great this is going to

677
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:49,960
be a month-long trial in Washington DC

678
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:53,000
on September 14th with you know multiple

679
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:55,360
experts and curiously no Witnesses

680
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,919
because this is something that Z icates

681
00:27:55,360 --> 00:28:00,320
me about this case now one of the

682
00:27:57,919 --> 00:28:02,039
interesting things also is that all the

683
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,600
block sheet analysis that the analysis

684
00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:06,799
is coming forward and and the government

685
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:09,240
is using to identify Roman as a ported

686
00:28:06,799 --> 00:28:12,279
operator of Bitcoin fog the entire

687
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,519
blockchain forensic industry completely

688
00:28:12,279 --> 00:28:16,840
standardless and they're completely

689
00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:18,360
refusing to show us any of their math

690
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,760
we've been sandbagged on that front as

691
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:22,519
well we asked the see chain reactor we

692
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,720
asked to see the input data sets that

693
00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:27,200
they use we asked to see that everything

694
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,799
and and and they've said No in fact none

695
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,760
of it been turned over and Discovery so

696
00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:34,080
in many ways T analysis is acting like

697
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,000
this wizard behind the curtain and we're

698
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,279
just supposed to trust them trust that

699
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,880
their analysis is correct even though we

700
00:28:38,279 --> 00:28:43,159
know that nothing in the blockchain

701
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,960
forensics world has accepted standards

702
00:28:43,159 --> 00:28:47,279
we've come across this in other cases as

703
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,320
well if you're dealing with uh let's say

704
00:28:47,279 --> 00:28:51,039
e Discovery you know these standards on

705
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,720
how e Discovery is supposed to be shared

706
00:28:51,039 --> 00:28:54,799
and presented and what what it's worth

707
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,720
at trial these standards are thought

708
00:28:54,799 --> 00:28:59,240
about at a conference in Sedona Arizona

709
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,679
know they release uh peer-reviewed

710
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,960
papers where they talk about the

711
00:29:00,679 --> 00:29:03,720
standards that are made and why they

712
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,960
should be this way for blockchain

713
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:08,159
forensics there's none of them there's

714
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,200
an interesting book by Chris Faber Camp

715
00:29:08,159 --> 00:29:13,440
from the Innocence Project called junp

716
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:15,320
science and he talks about how new kinds

717
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:18,840
of forensics when they're coming out you

718
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:21,600
know fingerprint forensics DNA forensics

719
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:26,159
Dental record forensics when they're

720
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:28,279
new they're often inaccurate in fact 51%

721
00:29:26,159 --> 00:29:30,720
of the of the wrongful convictions that

722
00:29:28,279 --> 00:29:32,840
the Innocence Project is able been

723
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,679
overturned have been the result of this

724
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,159
kind of junk science and that's exactly

725
00:29:34,679 --> 00:29:37,320
what we have here with ch analysis

726
00:29:36,159 --> 00:29:38,480
because they're trying to make up their

727
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,480
rules and they're not they're not

728
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:44,760
showing us to work and this is the first

729
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:47,519
time uh that CH analysis is going to be

730
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:50,519
challenged in the US federal court at

731
00:29:47,519 --> 00:29:53,720
trial um if you're familiar with the US

732
00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:55,399
system at all 90% of the cases go to a

733
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,720
plea people just take a guilty plea

734
00:29:55,399 --> 00:29:58,880
because they don't have the2 to four

735
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,399
million doll should need fight the

736
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:03,640
United States government a lot of people

737
00:30:01,399 --> 00:30:06,000
in the United States who are innocent

738
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,480
take police for that reason it's it's

739
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,640
just basically turned into a police

740
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:14,399
system of rest of the other 10% of the

741
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:18,600
cases 8% are dismissed 2% actually go to

742
00:30:14,399 --> 00:30:20,919
trial less than 1% result in the quiddle

743
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:23,200
you can see the there because uh that's

744
00:30:20,919 --> 00:30:25,600
just a [ __ ] rot system and i' been in

745
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,760
it 10 years but we do have an

746
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,320
interesting opportunity here

747
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:32,159
because in a lot of the cases you know I

748
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,960
don't want to say you know but the

749
00:30:32,159 --> 00:30:35,440
Govern the defendant is guilty you know

750
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,200
there's TR operating evidence to prove

751
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:41,640
it here we have somebody who is

752
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:43,799
completely clean this is our chance to

753
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:46,159
challenge chain analysis this is our

754
00:30:43,799 --> 00:30:47,840
chance to challenge how they manipulate

755
00:30:46,159 --> 00:30:49,960
data transics in order to support the

756
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,799
government's op and and get those big

757
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,360
contracts and get those jobs at CH

758
00:30:51,799 --> 00:30:57,880
analysis when they leave doj the fact

759
00:30:54,360 --> 00:31:00,200
that Roman is innocent is incredible

760
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,919
yeah I me when we got this case on our

761
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,120
desk a little bit because we kind of

762
00:31:01,919 --> 00:31:06,159
thought oh like everybody does this is

763
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,320
the natural reaction you must have done

764
00:31:06,159 --> 00:31:09,919
something you must have known somebody

765
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,399
right I figured okay well we'll just cut

766
00:31:09,919 --> 00:31:14,080
some [ __ ] deal even didn't do this

767
00:31:11,399 --> 00:31:15,919
[ __ ] we know somebody or whatever and

768
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,360
then we went down to talk to him in jail

769
00:31:15,919 --> 00:31:19,919
and we talked him five minutes and we

770
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:22,799
were like holy [ __ ] dude you're

771
00:31:19,919 --> 00:31:25,120
innocent in Z that's a game changer

772
00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:27,000
we've just been on aade since and

773
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,639
everybody we brought in on this case and

774
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,720
now we've unfortunate to have some very

775
00:31:28,639 --> 00:31:32,360
very good people working on we tell them

776
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,320
we just say listen if you see one thing

777
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:38,639
that makes you he's guilty you let us

778
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,960
know to dat nobody's pointed out any

779
00:31:38,639 --> 00:31:41,559
people just get really really pissed off

780
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,840
and work on this case

781
00:31:41,559 --> 00:31:47,559
harder the really thing doug because

782
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,159
Doug put us on the Monero podcast and

783
00:31:47,559 --> 00:31:50,919
that was the first podcast where he

784
00:31:49,159 --> 00:31:53,639
actually got a chance to tell Roman's

785
00:31:50,919 --> 00:31:55,880
story once that podcast got out we got

786
00:31:53,639 --> 00:31:58,000
invited by a man named Lucas bear who

787
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,840
runs a Swiss Association he said you

788
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,720
know what this is really [ __ ] up and

789
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,840
we want to help us the word so he

790
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,519
invited us to Europe put us in touch

791
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:09,600
with the other Bitcoin meetups we went

792
00:32:05,519 --> 00:32:11,039
to Durk Munich Berlin Stuart and these

793
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,559
were the people these were the same

794
00:32:11,039 --> 00:32:15,960
meetups that Roman was attending back in

795
00:32:13,559 --> 00:32:18,840
2011 and it gave us an opportunity to

796
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,919
get to know his tribe where he comes

797
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,840
from what kind of ideas are being passed

798
00:32:20,919 --> 00:32:24,559
around and we've been on a couple other

799
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,440
podcasts since and now you know the

800
00:32:24,559 --> 00:32:28,720
momentum behind Roman's case it's really

801
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,399
just starting to build you know and and

802
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,399
it's because of people like you in this

803
00:32:30,399 --> 00:32:34,440
room who are hearing this story and

804
00:32:32,399 --> 00:32:36,760
thinking hey that's [ __ ] up you know

805
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,279
we can't let this

806
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,880
happen so I think we're reaching the end

807
00:32:39,279 --> 00:32:44,200
of our lot of time here I mean we're

808
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,600
happy to answer questions we're also G

809
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:49,320
to be around all weekend at we have one

810
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,320
person back

811
00:32:55,159 --> 00:33:01,200
want sure sure sure of course

812
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:03,799
hey first off like Round of Applause for

813
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,840
these guys for fighting

814
00:33:03,799 --> 00:33:08,639
for

815
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,440
um I I didn't I didn't mention this

816
00:33:08,639 --> 00:33:12,760
during my talk but I mentioned report on

817
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:15,080
the crypto space I was in New York City

818
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,840
during Ross s Rick's entire trial and

819
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,600
Andy Greenberg was responsible for all

820
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,600
the horrible stories about Ross paining

821
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,559
him as a Kingpin you know all this

822
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:25,360
criminal activity so it doesn't surprise

823
00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:27,880
me to see that journalist is on Roman

824
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,840
story um it's I'm happy to help in any

825
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,240
way I can to amplify this story as well

826
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,679
but is there a main website that people

827
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,840
can find to find perect if you just got

828
00:33:34,679 --> 00:33:38,720
it

829
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:41,000
t.com there's a link with info on the

830
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:44,039
case and how to donate you got you guys

831
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,440
need a Monero donation address we do we

832
00:33:44,039 --> 00:33:47,600
we have one we have one if you go to the

833
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,519
website there is one we we put one on

834
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:52,679
perfect example right I may not want the

835
00:33:49,519 --> 00:33:54,279
world to know that I I've donated this

836
00:33:52,679 --> 00:33:58,080
campaign right and we've been getting

837
00:33:54,279 --> 00:33:59,799
mon donations thank you everybody

838
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,919
yeah

839
00:33:59,799 --> 00:34:05,799
no and but and by the way my my opening

840
00:34:02,919 --> 00:34:08,480
FAA where I basically said he created

841
00:34:05,799 --> 00:34:12,800
bitcoin that's the problem right so it's

842
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:16,000
guilty it's guilty to

843
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:18,359
right right it's it's no more innocent

844
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:21,720
until proven guilty right and they they

845
00:34:18,359 --> 00:34:23,879
win by by owning the Mind share and

846
00:34:21,720 --> 00:34:27,480
getting getting the work like all of us

847
00:34:23,879 --> 00:34:30,200
here right we're we're we're you know we

848
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:32,520
are by far the this the super minority

849
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,879
right we're very suspicious but the vast

850
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:38,440
majority reads a headline and just

851
00:34:34,879 --> 00:34:41,399
assumes this guy's a

852
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,679
criminal hearings know we're saying that

853
00:34:41,399 --> 00:34:44,200
the government has to prove Beyond a

854
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:45,679
reasonable doubt that this guy's guilty

855
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,520
there's no evidence like why is this

856
00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:49,839
going on like just release them already

857
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,399
right the prosecutors come up to us and

858
00:34:49,839 --> 00:34:53,159
they say no no this thing wasn't coming

859
00:34:51,399 --> 00:34:55,639
up to us this was on the [ __ ] record

860
00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:58,200
dude this just to the judge this and

861
00:34:55,639 --> 00:35:00,359
they say you you know the defense has

862
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,960
Pro that he's innocent and we're like

863
00:35:00,359 --> 00:35:04,640
wait what you know I I heard that you

864
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,680
heard that at Federal Federal Criminal

865
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:10,640
Court the transcripts a prosecutor said

866
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:13,640
that the def has to prove what he's

867
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:15,119
innocent this your shows like they're

868
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,240
not used to trials you know they're not

869
00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:19,200
used to Guys Like Us coming back up in

870
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:20,520
person and go so gungho when the

871
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,920
government takes all of its money you

872
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,560
know we're going mon with r we're

873
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,920
fighting the case we're going around the

874
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:28,200
world to tell people like you you know

875
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,280
every's not used to this the police

876
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,760
system you know they better get used to

877
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,920
it

878
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,359
though any any other questions what what

879
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,480
is you know I just want to do the what

880
00:35:36,359 --> 00:35:41,920
do you guys think this means for Monero

881
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:44,680
right which is default private doesn't

882
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:46,880
require any mixers but there's this

883
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:50,240
worry that the government may just try

884
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:53,560
to ban something like Monero you spoke

885
00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:56,680
about that mixing itself uh has been

886
00:35:53,560 --> 00:36:00,599
defined legally defined as being legal

887
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:02,160
um is there should be concern that

888
00:36:00,599 --> 00:36:05,520
perhaps the United States might try to

889
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:10,200
ban Monero or or some other some other

890
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:12,640
major state or is is it an absurd

891
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,640
notion I think that uh it's much more

892
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,359
likely that the government is going to

893
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:20,040
use these standardless junk science

894
00:36:17,359 --> 00:36:21,160
forensics justification and try to

895
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,839
convince the government and try to

896
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,079
convince people that they could trace it

897
00:36:22,839 --> 00:36:25,240
whether or not they can't because

898
00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:27,079
apparently they don't have to show their

899
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:28,160
data show their map you know I think

900
00:36:27,079 --> 00:36:31,040
it's much more likely that they're going

901
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:33,280
to use a company like chainalysis to you

902
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,760
know shut it down to these kind of cases

903
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,079
and that that's the most dangerous thing

904
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,520
I think the United States government um

905
00:36:38,079 --> 00:36:43,240
wants to control all the currency in the

906
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:46,240
world and they're losing their mind when

907
00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:47,960
Bitcoin and then monar and everything

908
00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:49,960
and they seem to think that anything

909
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:52,359
involved with the digital cency is

910
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,720
somehow criminal it's it's just it's

911
00:36:52,359 --> 00:36:57,040
this weird psychology to have so I would

912
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:58,319
be concerned about that and I I see

913
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,560
there's a lot of questions which is

914
00:36:58,319 --> 00:37:01,200
great and these guys are going to be on

915
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,480
our chain analysis panalty so there'll

916
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,880
be another hopefully another we'll be

917
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:08,960
hanging out all weekend go

918
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:11,400
ahead um a few years ago there were a

919
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:14,119
lot of um people using algorithms for

920
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:16,000
sentencing and all this sort of and the

921
00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:18,560
case got pushed up to the US Supreme

922
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:21,480
Court and Justice uh chief justice

923
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,240
Roberts issued an opinion that said that

924
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:26,000
you know all this machine learning it's

925
00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:28,359
basically a bunch of gapa leuk and are

926
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:31,119
you g to be to use that higher Court

927
00:37:28,359 --> 00:37:35,040
opinion in order to force the source

928
00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:37,000
code for G analysis to be revealed uh

929
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,400
I'm our argument is essential if you're

930
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,720
not going to show us the source Court

931
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,160
you should none of this comes in as

932
00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:44,720
evidence and and they they're saying

933
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:47,119
they came back in in their they moved to

934
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:49,400
quash Suba and they were basically like

935
00:37:47,119 --> 00:37:52,240
our stuff's proprietary and we were like

936
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,920
[ __ ] you don't you voluntarily chose to

937
00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:55,760
go into the law enforcement business and

938
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:58,680
if you want to put somebody away for 50

939
00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,160
years to life show the damn math and and

940
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,599
one of the things the themes for us in

941
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,880
this case is Wan's not hiding anything

942
00:38:02,599 --> 00:38:06,520
it's the government hiding anything W's

943
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,760
not making any money it's the government

944
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,040
and chain houses making all the money

945
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,599
you know so yeah I mean I'm totally down

946
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,119
with that I hate I hate those sensing

947
00:38:12,599 --> 00:38:15,480
algorithm the other thing with the

948
00:38:14,119 --> 00:38:17,480
sentencing algorithms is that the

949
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,560
sentencing guidelines are completely

950
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,160
arbitrary and they don't really make a

951
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,400
lot of sense you know you might have

952
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,200
somebody who committed like a really

953
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,119
heinous crime and he can out the

954
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,680
sentencing guidelines doesn't get nearly

955
00:38:26,119 --> 00:38:31,280
as what somebody who did a very

956
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:33,359
relatively minor crime so when you imp

957
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,720
guidelines into AI you're just going to

958
00:38:33,359 --> 00:38:37,319
get like convoluted like terrible

959
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:39,359
results nobody would really think is

960
00:38:37,319 --> 00:38:41,440
just and I think that's one of the major

961
00:38:39,359 --> 00:38:44,079
themes of this case overall is that

962
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:46,400
there are being profits Fame are being

963
00:38:44,079 --> 00:38:48,079
placed over top of Justice when you have

964
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,160
private companies like Al that's coming

965
00:38:48,079 --> 00:38:51,520
into the law enforcement States and

966
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,359
trying to hide their work and trying to

967
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,560
make money and go on for private Equity

968
00:38:53,359 --> 00:38:56,800
funding rounds every time there's an

969
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,079
arrest release and then Co Le saying

970
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,400
that oh because there's an arrest that

971
00:38:58,079 --> 00:39:03,440
means that our software works you know

972
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:05,560
this is dangerous Justice and Andy's

973
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,839
book by the way has been optioned uh by

974
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:10,560
Hollywood an Oscar womaning documentary

975
00:39:07,839 --> 00:39:13,359
filmmaker named Andy kidney was Andy

976
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:16,720
Andy kidney right Alex KY thank you Alex

977
00:39:13,359 --> 00:39:19,119
K we thought about subing him too

978
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:21,839
but I have a couple of questions here I

979
00:39:19,119 --> 00:39:25,960
mean I've been studying What I Call F

980
00:39:21,839 --> 00:39:29,920
surveillance which in fact isit my in my

981
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:32,800
in kind of claim to C reception analysis

982
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:35,040
do that um and and I'm actually of the

983
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,520
opinion that it doesn't work on bitcoin

984
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,640
um one of the main reasons of motivation

985
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,520
for this and it is that one of the

986
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,319
justifications of the list monara for

987
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:46,720
exchanges has been the fact that it

988
00:39:42,319 --> 00:39:48,800
breaks this type of um Blain sance my

989
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:52,440
question is have trouble are you aware

990
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:54,560
of any evidence of failure of blockchain

991
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:57,200
surveillance in other cases of

992
00:39:54,560 --> 00:40:00,720
situations or data that would indicate

993
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:02,119
to go add questions to that failure

994
00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:04,760
that's a really good question because

995
00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:06,960
what's interesting about every other

996
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:10,160
case except for this one is that they've

997
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:13,440
got some kind of collaborating evidence

998
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:16,920
that confirms what they were saying that

999
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:19,520
that they tracing showed so it's hard to

1000
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,720
tell actually how good the tracing is

1001
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,960
because when uh for instance like Ross

1002
00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:26,839
Alber he's arrested in in a public

1003
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:29,240
library with his laptop open to the

1004
00:40:26,839 --> 00:40:30,839
admin panel for silk road right there's

1005
00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:33,119
another case called Harmon where a guy

1006
00:40:30,839 --> 00:40:36,040
accidentally takes uh he takes his GL

1007
00:40:33,119 --> 00:40:38,079
glasses off he accident takes a photo of

1008
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:41,440
the Advent panel so it's not clear to me

1009
00:40:38,079 --> 00:40:43,480
actually how effective tracing has been

1010
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:47,119
in these cases because almost all of

1011
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:50,040
them are also plea deals so on a plea

1012
00:40:47,119 --> 00:40:51,800
deal because the standard is so low like

1013
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:56,359
nothing gets tested and that's why this

1014
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:58,720
is the first case where anybody's going

1015
00:40:56,359 --> 00:41:01,040
get one for real so it's it's hard to

1016
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:03,880
tell because you know I mean the whole

1017
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:06,319
analysis is a probability analysis which

1018
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,800
is basically [ __ ] guessing and we are

1019
00:41:06,319 --> 00:41:10,280
seeing all sorts of mistakes all over

1020
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,599
the place so I can imagine that being a

1021
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,599
problem

1022
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:18,200
elsewhere yeah those cases you know like

1023
00:41:16,359 --> 00:41:19,560
kman is just such a funny one that's

1024
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,319
what I was trying to mention you know

1025
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,720
how he takes the Google Glasses off and

1026
00:41:21,319 --> 00:41:25,079
that's their main piece of evidence you

1027
00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:27,520
know but here there's nothing there's

1028
00:41:25,079 --> 00:41:29,480
absolutely no corroborating evidence you

1029
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:32,040
know there's no logs there's no nothing

1030
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,560
and you know this is almost working

1031
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,040
against us because the government is

1032
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,280
coming out and they're saying because

1033
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,960
there's no evidence it's evidence that

1034
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,800
he's a mastermind cyber internet

1035
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:43,160
criminal you know he was so good at

1036
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,400
hiting it that he must be the creator of

1037
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,760
Bitcoin fog because it's so

1038
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:50,400
sophisticated and they

1039
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:52,599
sophisticated because they can't trace

1040
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:55,000
through it that's why Roman wound up in

1041
00:41:52,599 --> 00:41:56,839
the situation because through all even

1042
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,960
through CH analysis is Li and their

1043
00:41:56,839 --> 00:42:00,960
misguided blockchain approaches you know

1044
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,680
they still can't find the real operator

1045
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,560
Bitcoin fog with that an analytical

1046
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:08,839
methods that they're using mixing

1047
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,839
service work and it scares the living

1048
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:14,480
[ __ ] my my my second question referring

1049
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:17,760
evidence outside of the of the legal

1050
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:20,400
realm um and in particular there was a

1051
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:24,440
um a report put out by the financial

1052
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:25,800
acction task force where they send um H

1053
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:29,599
I think seven different blockchain

1054
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:32,960
surveillance companies to measure the

1055
00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:36,480
percentage of the listed activity in the

1056
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:38,800
Bitcoin blockchain and and I think was

1057
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:41,280
about four or five year period for each

1058
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:44,280
year and the ranges for the averages

1059
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:46,440
that they got range from 0.4% so like

1060
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,800
12.5% are you familiar with this report

1061
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:52,359
at all no I don't know that but I

1062
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:56,240
haven't found any peer reviewed papers

1063
00:42:52,359 --> 00:42:58,720
on any of this crap like Jane alysis

1064
00:42:56,240 --> 00:43:01,160
thing like it's one of the I think

1065
00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:03,359
problems with the this whole field is

1066
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:06,559
it's based on juristic which is the

1067
00:43:03,359 --> 00:43:09,040
Greek word for ging and it's incredibly

1068
00:43:06,559 --> 00:43:10,760
subjective well the the reason I'm say

1069
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,240
this is because what that would indicate

1070
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,480
to me is that the average istically are

1071
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:18,640
so far off it's quite impossible toate

1072
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:20,640
any reli evidence of case I mean that

1073
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:23,200
that's why I'm saying and so it comes to

1074
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,880
the next question um apart from

1075
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,880
obviously fundraising are there other

1076
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:30,640
ways where we and the Monero can help

1077
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:33,079
you gather or at least B

1078
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:35,559
information on this sort of the

1079
00:43:33,079 --> 00:43:37,880
flawlessness of surveillance in the

1080
00:43:35,559 --> 00:43:40,319
general sense that will be helpful for

1081
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:43,119
the case and how will we go about doing

1082
00:43:40,319 --> 00:43:46,200
that absolutely we've already you've

1083
00:43:43,119 --> 00:43:48,480
already gotten a lot of great ideas from

1084
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,520
people because you first all you just

1085
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,599
email us if you go to our website

1086
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:55,200
there's an email it's

1087
00:43:52,599 --> 00:43:57,559
info.com reach out to us because we've

1088
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,359
got our heads in this so deeply we miss

1089
00:43:57,559 --> 00:44:01,359
the obvious sometime I think it was like

1090
00:43:59,359 --> 00:44:03,359
like a Zer or someone just made this

1091
00:44:01,359 --> 00:44:06,119
great point they were like if this guy's

1092
00:44:03,359 --> 00:44:08,160
such a criminal mastermind and he's such

1093
00:44:06,119 --> 00:44:10,079
a genius and he's like cleared all his

1094
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:13,000
tracks and there's no evidence why the

1095
00:44:10,079 --> 00:44:15,480
[ __ ] is he using a kyc crack in account

1096
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:18,720
to take the royalty payments and you're

1097
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:21,359
like yeah right like

1098
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:22,760
like yeah right like there's stuff in

1099
00:44:21,359 --> 00:44:25,680
his Diaries where he's talking about how

1100
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:28,319
broke he is right like because like just

1101
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:30,240
sort of like the cloud mind anything

1102
00:44:28,319 --> 00:44:31,720
take a look at it if you've got if you

1103
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:33,640
think something just reach out to us and

1104
00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:36,640
talk to us about it because we're not

1105
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:39,359
like super Geniuses or anything stuff on

1106
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:41,480
you know missing it's just like you know

1107
00:44:39,359 --> 00:44:44,160
we welcome the

1108
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:47,119
help thank you guys for speaking today

1109
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:50,119
um my question is so a little advertised

1110
00:44:47,119 --> 00:44:52,800
fact is um that the CEO of Kraken Jesse

1111
00:44:50,119 --> 00:44:56,240
Powell is a co-founder of CH

1112
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,880
analysis uh any plans to subpoena him

1113
00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:59,760
and try to make it uncomfortable for

1114
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,960
exchanges to associate with chain

1115
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:04,240
analysis and rely so heavily on their

1116
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,720
analysis yeah so we found the same thing

1117
00:45:04,240 --> 00:45:07,800
in particular we've taken a Michael

1118
00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:09,400
Groner you know in fact we sent him a

1119
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,520
subpoena today which are waiting to hear

1120
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,680
back from because we want him to testify

1121
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,280
as to the Mount Go's records that he got

1122
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:18,000
from Mar carpis when he was trying to

1123
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:21,079
build chainalysis see Michael Groner

1124
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:23,000
co-founded chainalysis with Jonathan L

1125
00:45:21,079 --> 00:45:25,000
and they did so on the back of trying to

1126
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:27,720
find the missing Bitcoins from the mount

1127
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:30,839
gox hack and it was only through this

1128
00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:33,920
book that we learned this story you know

1129
00:45:30,839 --> 00:45:35,800
nothing in the government's Discovery so

1130
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,880
where the M go Circ came from how they

1131
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:40,440
were messed up but we have to find it in

1132
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,960
a in a public from our regular bookstore

1133
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:45,480
that's going around so yes we are

1134
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:47,680
targeting Michael groer because he uh is

1135
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,920
affiliated with C but also because he

1136
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:52,079
built chainalysis with the same Mount

1137
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:54,880
dark records the government is now using

1138
00:45:52,079 --> 00:45:58,280
to accuse Roman of theu

1139
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,280
act it's a

1140
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,880
mess that's it's the the mount go stat

1141
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:09,520
is a total mass and so when we read in

1142
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:12,000
the book that uh it had been given to

1143
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,800
grer and grer was like it's corrupt we

1144
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,440
like oh you know that makes sense you

1145
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:19,880
know that's a good

1146
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,880
question all right

1147
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:29,640
pav things I I have just two short

1148
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:33,200
question the first question is uh

1149
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:36,160
apparently for uh chain chain analysis

1150
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:39,480
this was or it should be like the huge

1151
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:41,760
repetition Scandal so my question is did

1152
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:44,599
they apologize

1153
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:48,119
him a stupid question I do not expect it

1154
00:46:44,599 --> 00:46:52,040
from the US government but but uh but

1155
00:46:48,119 --> 00:46:55,920
from this private company if it just

1156
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:58,559
might come would do that for um they

1157
00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:00,839
been uh really contemptuous to us they

1158
00:46:58,559 --> 00:47:03,400
told us that they were too important to

1159
00:47:00,839 --> 00:47:04,839
testify they quoted some of my [ __ ] from

1160
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,880
my Twitter feed at me which I always

1161
00:47:04,839 --> 00:47:10,599
love it when people do that um but

1162
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:13,359
they've been really arrogant they've um

1163
00:47:10,599 --> 00:47:15,040
refused to cooperate at all uh my

1164
00:47:13,359 --> 00:47:17,760
impression is that they don't give a

1165
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:20,079
[ __ ] about whether or not they've got

1166
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:22,440
the right person the most important

1167
00:47:20,079 --> 00:47:26,440
thing to them is their money and their

1168
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:30,359
government contract and and uh if get qu

1169
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:32,200
all they're the first company we're

1170
00:47:30,359 --> 00:47:34,960
suing

1171
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:37,440
yeah yeah I don't have yeah yeah they

1172
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:39,800
hired like bunch of people from okay

1173
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:42,160
thanks a lot for this I would expect it

1174
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:45,119
um and the last question is probably you

1175
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:48,200
know the the technical details of Ros

1176
00:47:45,119 --> 00:47:51,200
brick process legal process I know that

1177
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:55,319
in his legal process or a lot of like

1178
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:56,440
mistakes like a gathering the the proofs

1179
00:47:55,319 --> 00:47:59,000
and everything

1180
00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:01,280
so do you believe that it's likely in

1181
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:06,880
the near future that his case will be

1182
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:09,640
open G and in change and he like and the

1183
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:13,640
the I think he has like a double life

1184
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:16,040
pron I think R um and it's fortunate I

1185
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:18,440
know like I I've spoken to Ross I I

1186
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:20,319
talked to him briefly when he was GNA do

1187
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:24,720
his Supreme Court appeal I know his mom

1188
00:48:20,319 --> 00:48:26,319
I know um I almost actually had took

1189
00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:31,200
that case and

1190
00:48:26,319 --> 00:48:33,680
I'm not g on how that was handled um but

1191
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,680
um

1192
00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:39,480
I with there's this when it comes to

1193
00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:40,599
this kind of stuff and these kinds of

1194
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,200
computers and the kind of stuff that

1195
00:48:40,599 --> 00:48:44,359
everybody in this room is doing and like

1196
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:47,000
Doug you were saying you know you're the

1197
00:48:44,359 --> 00:48:48,480
minority the majority of people don't

1198
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:51,440
know anything about computers they view

1199
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:54,200
it as a kind of black magic don't

1200
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,599
understand it and and it's it's a an odd

1201
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,839
phenomena but I've seen it in every

1202
00:48:55,599 --> 00:49:00,480
every single case I've had in the last

1203
00:48:57,839 --> 00:49:04,119
10 years they they do like it's a kind

1204
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:06,440
of Witchcraft and Ross got demonized and

1205
00:49:04,119 --> 00:49:10,000
he got demonized as this you know evil

1206
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:12,680
guy killing people and and all this this

1207
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:14,040
stuff and I think well I know is the

1208
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,640
fact that when you get in prison if

1209
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:18,440
you're like I've had hacker clients who

1210
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:20,680
go into prison they'll I've had clients

1211
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:23,079
who got like uh were convicted for

1212
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:24,880
copying the email addresses laa silver

1213
00:49:23,079 --> 00:49:27,760
who spent the majority of their time in

1214
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,960
solitary find that because there's this

1215
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,960
they think that oh my God they're going

1216
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:33,000
to get on a computer and they're going

1217
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,880
to end the world from the jail it's

1218
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:37,720
completely irrational um I hate to say

1219
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:40,400
it I mean people should keep fighting

1220
00:49:37,720 --> 00:49:43,040
for Ross I know people who helped get

1221
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:46,040
him out of the supermax don't give up

1222
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:47,520
you because I I hope I'm wrong but I

1223
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,319
think he's kind of [ __ ] just because

1224
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,839
of the Prejudice and this view of

1225
00:49:50,319 --> 00:49:54,559
anybody who's good with computers as

1226
00:49:51,839 --> 00:49:56,359
being some kind of like Evil dark wit I

1227
00:49:54,559 --> 00:49:58,079
mean

1228
00:49:56,359 --> 00:50:00,640
hackers and the computer crowd that

1229
00:49:58,079 --> 00:50:02,960
they're the new witches as far as you

1230
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:05,480
know and doj sees anything any kind of

1231
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:08,119
digital currency anything they just see

1232
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:10,040
it as criminal and and also just a

1233
00:50:08,119 --> 00:50:11,119
threat to their their control the

1234
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,040
financial

1235
00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:14,400
system we have to prove that it's

1236
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,440
criminal you know this is where we have

1237
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:18,920
an opportunity you know like we

1238
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:21,440
mentioned earlier there's no there's no

1239
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:23,799
standards in these digital forensics

1240
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,960
through this case we have a prime

1241
00:50:23,799 --> 00:50:28,440
opportunity lined up you know the line

1242
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:30,040
up on the tea for us to really challenge

1243
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,480
ke analysis and their relationship with

1244
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:34,760
the government the government's used

1245
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:37,440
this inaccurate blockchain eristics to

1246
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:39,440
block people up now this is the first

1247
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,720
time that's ever come about and you know

1248
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,920
who knows when the next time will be

1249
00:50:40,720 --> 00:50:43,920
because all these to go to

1250
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:52,119
pleased so there's there's a lot of uh

1251
00:50:48,559 --> 00:50:56,119
people here who know quite a bit about

1252
00:50:52,119 --> 00:50:58,960
digital opsc and uh you know

1253
00:50:56,119 --> 00:51:01,079
everybody might focus on things like guy

1254
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:04,240
getting burned by his own Google Glasses

1255
00:51:01,079 --> 00:51:07,839
or you know uh people buying and selling

1256
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:10,839
drugs using crypto via text message or

1257
00:51:07,839 --> 00:51:13,240
something that's already compromised but

1258
00:51:10,839 --> 00:51:16,160
I would very much appreciate if you guys

1259
00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:18,400
could comment on the old school

1260
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:21,799
techniques of just keeping yourself off

1261
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:24,799
the radar I'm old enough to remember

1262
00:51:21,799 --> 00:51:27,200
like the how to never get arrested again

1263
00:51:24,799 --> 00:51:29,079
because know you they used to have this

1264
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:31,119
vog about weed I don't know if I

1265
00:51:29,079 --> 00:51:33,400
remember you know people couldn't smoke

1266
00:51:31,119 --> 00:51:35,119
weed back in the day like but if you

1267
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,839
could just bring up so there's a lot of

1268
00:51:35,119 --> 00:51:38,520
young people watching this right now who

1269
00:51:36,839 --> 00:51:41,480
don't know about the old school

1270
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:43,599
techniques of just not getting on the

1271
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:45,839
radar in the first place we got we gotta

1272
00:51:43,599 --> 00:51:49,440
give this one to the

1273
00:51:45,839 --> 00:51:52,079
OG don't put yourself on the

1274
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:55,040
radar should

1275
00:51:52,079 --> 00:51:57,240
well well you know this thing just like

1276
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,680
with um what's so crazy about this Kings

1277
00:51:57,240 --> 00:52:00,920
is he wasn't putting himself on the

1278
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:04,280
radar he wasn't doing anything and that

1279
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,280
that's what I think is

1280
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:13,599
so other K you

1281
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:20,280
know a lot of the guys who I I've wed

1282
00:52:17,799 --> 00:52:22,480
who got popped mou off a lot or they

1283
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:25,680
bragged and and and there's something

1284
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:27,920
else man like um you could be real

1285
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:29,880
really really really good but the really

1286
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:33,000
really good people that I W to got

1287
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:35,799
popped they made one mistake they made

1288
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:38,720
one mistake and you make one mistake in

1289
00:52:35,799 --> 00:52:40,920
in this world in in computer land and

1290
00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:43,119
then they got you and then other times

1291
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:45,760
people be with explicable stuff like um

1292
00:52:43,119 --> 00:52:47,480
I had a guy who did this all this really

1293
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:50,119
cut of really interesting work but he

1294
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:53,040
painted for his you know secret European

1295
00:52:50,119 --> 00:52:54,920
server uh with his own credit card

1296
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,000
adding his own name or the other thing

1297
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:59,040
you see happened is people they they set

1298
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:01,799
up accounts before they even got into

1299
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:03,760
stuff or whatever and they forgot about

1300
00:53:01,799 --> 00:53:05,200
them like it's and that's what's

1301
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:07,799
incredible to me about this case when we

1302
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:12,960
seized all this computer there's not a

1303
00:53:07,799 --> 00:53:15,920
trace on any Stu of him

1304
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:17,280
doing people I talk to have never seen

1305
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:20,440
that

1306
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,799
before like yeah keep a low profile

1307
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:25,319
because I mean I think the lesson of

1308
00:53:21,799 --> 00:53:28,599
this case is is again going to mano and

1309
00:53:25,319 --> 00:53:30,280
privacy is like they just grab you if

1310
00:53:28,599 --> 00:53:33,440
they just see you you don't even want to

1311
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:35,160
be seen and I think that's why you

1312
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:38,079
people are here I think this is

1313
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:40,839
important because it it's like you're

1314
00:53:38,079 --> 00:53:42,799
innocent people get drowned by the

1315
00:53:40,839 --> 00:53:45,559
government I know that for a fact and

1316
00:53:42,799 --> 00:53:48,119
that's what this case is not and so you

1317
00:53:45,559 --> 00:53:50,440
should just be laying low man and like

1318
00:53:48,119 --> 00:53:53,040
covering your tracks even if you're PS

1319
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,040
The Driven

1320
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:58,240
sow yeah

1321
00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:01,280
um everybody's support on this one you

1322
00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:03,000
know the $50 $100 donations you know

1323
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:06,359
from everybody really adds up and

1324
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:08,119
supports room because you know he was

1325
00:54:06,359 --> 00:54:10,079
feeling terrible a couple of weeks ago

1326
00:54:08,119 --> 00:54:12,040
you know he was just so D you know it's

1327
00:54:10,079 --> 00:54:13,599
locked up in this prison Virginia and

1328
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,480
we're over to Europe and and he get to

1329
00:54:13,599 --> 00:54:16,559
hold a tour cell phone and you know tell

1330
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,040
him about all the support that's

1331
00:54:16,559 --> 00:54:19,319
starting to come up for him how is how

1332
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,960
his words starting to spread you know

1333
00:54:19,319 --> 00:54:22,200
people are making t-shirts over there

1334
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,480
people are going on radio shows and

1335
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:26,760
podcasts and TV talking about this you

1336
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:29,040
know about Roman you know you can see

1337
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:30,400
fight and you he fight and spirit coming

1338
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,400
up looking forward to this trial you

1339
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,880
know and then it it's built right and

1340
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:37,640
then a couple of days ago we get this

1341
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:39,119
plea offer from the government right and

1342
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,599
Rowan calls us we're talking about the

1343
00:54:39,119 --> 00:54:41,880
plea I want to hear about the plea you

1344
00:54:40,599 --> 00:54:43,240
know I want to talk about the case for

1345
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,960
taking this [ __ ] you know I'm like

1346
00:54:43,240 --> 00:54:47,040
that's the [ __ ] right attitude man

1347
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:49,559
let's [ __ ] go let's take down Shan

1348
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:50,839
alysis let's take down doj on this on

1349
00:54:49,559 --> 00:54:55,920
you

1350
00:54:50,839 --> 00:54:57,640
know that's great uh so there's this uh

1351
00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:00,839
wallet called Samurai wallet they have a

1352
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:03,839
wh poool and these people insist that

1353
00:55:00,839 --> 00:55:05,640
they're bulletproof from any kind of Us

1354
00:55:03,839 --> 00:55:09,319
action I well I know it can be kangaroo

1355
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:11,680
court and all that but um is is that but

1356
00:55:09,319 --> 00:55:14,920
I've also seen a lot of mixing sites go

1357
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:16,760
down even outside of this one and so is

1358
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,160
the problem with the other mixing site I

1359
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:20,319
mean there's also this come from this

1360
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:22,839
judge you mentioned that said that

1361
00:55:20,319 --> 00:55:25,359
mixing is not illegal in the States but

1362
00:55:22,839 --> 00:55:26,799
is the problem with all the all thex

1363
00:55:25,359 --> 00:55:29,880
that have gotten arrested that they

1364
00:55:26,799 --> 00:55:32,640
actually take custody of your coins and

1365
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:34,640
then give them back to you or is is that

1366
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:36,039
has that been the problem well it it it

1367
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:40,319
appears that every

1368
00:55:36,039 --> 00:55:42,319
time a mixer like helix or or a bank

1369
00:55:40,319 --> 00:55:44,200
like Liberty reserve from Costa Rica

1370
00:55:42,319 --> 00:55:45,799
that gets taken out with the United

1371
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,520
States government they're taking that

1372
00:55:45,799 --> 00:55:49,200
entire data set and giving it to chain

1373
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:52,480
analysis to try to make chain analysis

1374
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:54,720
stronger you know and these other uh

1375
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:57,520
analytical firms like oxt wallet you

1376
00:55:54,720 --> 00:56:00,319
know breadcrumbs you know their data

1377
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:03,039
sets show a different story so we can

1378
00:56:00,319 --> 00:56:05,280
take the same wallet address and we can

1379
00:56:03,039 --> 00:56:06,400
put it through oxt and it'll have a

1380
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,119
different result than when we put it

1381
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,880
through breadcrumbs and I would love to

1382
00:56:08,119 --> 00:56:12,000
try CH analysis reactor but you know

1383
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:14,920
they don't give us any access to it they

1384
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:17,280
a black box government surveillance chm

1385
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,400
but uh you know I think that s wall they

1386
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,559
they're doing great things you know they

1387
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:20,760
they're trying to help us on the case

1388
00:56:19,559 --> 00:56:22,240
these are the kinds of people guys from

1389
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:25,000
o guys from breadcrumbs these are the

1390
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:26,960
mindes that are behind us that these are

1391
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:28,280
people who are invested in taking down

1392
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,359
chainalysis because they're a

1393
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,640
chainalysis editor and we're kind of

1394
00:56:30,359 --> 00:56:33,200
just letting them take it and run with

1395
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:34,799
it and you know if they find something

1396
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:37,359
great show it to us we'll try to present

1397
00:56:34,799 --> 00:56:40,640
it in court and free it in

1398
00:56:37,359 --> 00:56:44,359
man I would use a cial

1399
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:48,640
mix I just based on this case just to

1400
00:56:44,359 --> 00:56:51,839
take it full circle back to Monero

1401
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:53,920
motopia would you suggest using Monero

1402
00:56:51,839 --> 00:56:56,599
does does Bitcoin put you at risk of

1403
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:59,359
being FSE ly accused of

1404
00:56:56,599 --> 00:57:01,079
crims yeah and actually was some of the

1405
00:56:59,359 --> 00:57:03,680
only digital currency that the

1406
00:57:01,079 --> 00:57:06,280
government didn't seize was mon out and

1407
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,960
we were actually able that was great we

1408
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:10,839
were actually able to get his Monero and

1409
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:15,000
fund the case a little

1410
00:57:10,839 --> 00:57:17,520
bit yep yeah yeah had yes on an old

1411
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:18,960
account the government uh they didn't

1412
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,359
they didn't seize it you know and we put

1413
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,400
it on his financial statement and we

1414
00:57:20,359 --> 00:57:24,280
transferred it into uh the firm's crypto

1415
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:25,760
accounts and then the government comes

1416
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,559
out us said they're like where's this

1417
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,319
money coming from for his defense we're

1418
00:57:27,559 --> 00:57:31,760
like it's it's his own money man you

1419
00:57:29,319 --> 00:57:36,200
know it was that was bizarre man like I

1420
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:37,960
it's it's what's the they had to ask the

1421
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:40,640
problem there's it's like really

1422
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:43,079
irrational it's not a rational process

1423
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:44,599
and that's the one thing people don't

1424
00:57:43,079 --> 00:57:45,720
understand because they think oh doj all

1425
00:57:44,599 --> 00:57:47,680
these people they see all these shows

1426
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:50,359
that these people are rational

1427
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:50,359
completely [ __ ]

1428
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:55,960
irrational guys I think when is the

1429
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:57,200
trial when is the September 14th it's

1430
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:59,839
probably going to take about a month in

1431
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:02,359
Washington DC please come if you're in

1432
00:57:59,839 --> 00:58:05,200
DC because we need people to fill our

1433
00:58:02,359 --> 00:58:07,400
side of the courtroom um and we'll be

1434
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:10,079
we've got what a Blog going on the

1435
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:11,720
geyser uh site if you go to our website

1436
00:58:10,079 --> 00:58:13,440
we'll have updates and everything and

1437
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:15,720
you can we'll be around all weekend the

1438
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:19,319
website has donation links for regular

1439
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:21,720
old Bitcoin lightning Bitcoin Monero and

1440
00:58:19,319 --> 00:58:24,799
Fe it so in any way you guys want to

1441
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:26,280
support we love it I know Roman needs it

1442
00:58:24,799 --> 00:58:27,920
you know and the more money we get the

1443
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:29,559
more moneyy we have to fight these guys

1444
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:31,119
they have an unlimited budget so it's

1445
00:58:29,559 --> 00:58:32,640
kind of like you know David and Goliath

1446
00:58:31,119 --> 00:58:34,480
kind of fight we're dealing with here

1447
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:35,480
but thank you all for coming out and

1448
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:38,359
thank you for the interest you're

1449
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:39,200
showing with da I know ran appreciate so

1450
00:58:38,359 --> 00:58:42,039
thank

1451
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:44,760
you thank you guys awesome job greatly

1452
00:58:42,039 --> 00:58:44,760
appreciate it

1453
00:58:46,350 --> 00:58:51,760
[Music]

1454
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,720
guys

1455
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:09,559
[Music]