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if you are running a business you are

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supposed to follow these sanctions you

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know you are supposed to check if you're

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not um not helping this sanctions person

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to use their money um and with Monero

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you just have one less problem because

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there's no way to tell so you know you

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did all you could to tell if you're not

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helping sanctioned persons uh you looked

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at the transactions all look the same so

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uh no problem so so

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yes it is easier as long as it is not

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bent

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completely Monero talk is sponsored by

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Monero with crypto

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tip

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this week on Monero

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talk Douglas tuman interviews URI Bednar

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an OG crypto Anarchist and entrepreneur

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active in the Bitcoin and hacking

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communities together they discuss

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censorship of certain Bitcoin

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transactions such as coin join what

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would happen if a group of censoring

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mining pools would exceed 50% of the

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hash rate how monero's total fungibility

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gives centralized actors deniability

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when questioned by the government

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compared to bitcoin possible solutions

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toit bitcoin's fees and scaling problems

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whether Bitcoin is living up to its

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crypto Anarchist roots and much

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more narrow Talk starts

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[Music]

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now all

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right you're good morning good morning

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deck my morning your afternoon or

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actually I don't know where you are

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these days yes it's afternoon 1 M okay

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right now you're you're you're back in

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uh you're back in the

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Homeland yes yes for a few

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days I'm getting prepared there's the

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largest European Hecker conference uh

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between Christmas and New Year in

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Germany all right and it's four uh it it

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was run uh running it was supposed to be

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40 uh uh year so it's as old as me but

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unfortunately during covid the it didn't

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happen because of the German

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paranoia and uh I'm excited after three

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years I get to see thousands of

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hackers otherwise it would have been the

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40th Year yes wow I didn't realize it

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was that that old wow who it is it is

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who who started

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that uh it's um uh chaos communication

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Congress so there they have been uh they

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had something like um um like a hacker

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space or something like that uh movement

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in Germany for quite a long time um uh

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they have clubs cares communication club

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uh and you can actually it's very

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interesting um Hecker history in Europe

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uh there's a

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um there's a really interesting book

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about it um because the KGB used to pay

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um East German and West German hackers

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with money and cocaine to hack into like

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us

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um uh us uh like um nuclear research

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facilities and stuff like that it's a

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fascinating story and there has been a

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movie about that which is called 23

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like the number 23 uh and it has quite a

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lot of European Hecker history so I

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highly recommend uh watching it and

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there's this story of of hacking of the

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US nuclear program but also of the of

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the like early heck Hecker culture in

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Germany so a good watch for the for the

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holidays that is a good watch that's

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amazing I didn't realize I didn't

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realize it was that old um I know we we

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interviewed people from there a couple

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of years ago when uh there were some

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Monero speakers uh Monero talks going on

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over there at the Packers Congress but I

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never realized it was that old 40 years

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old that's amazing yes although you know

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I look at Bitcoin and it's like you know

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we're not talking three years five years

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we're we're we're in decades now right

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like yes yes like I can't believe yeah

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we're this far along right before you

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know it we're be like H 20 years in

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Bitcoin uh which is why I want to bring

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you on man um you're obvious you're one

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of the most uh I guess one of the most

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well-versed bitcoiners I know um one of

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those that's you know truly sticking to

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this the cipher Punk crypto crypto

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Anarchist

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ideals um you have an ability to I feel

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like like to really have that aders

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Arial mindset and understand the

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ecosystem and what the attack vectors

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may be uh so I want to bring you on

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because I feel like there's a lot going

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on in Bitcoin land right now obviously

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you have like the ETF that's happening

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and I feel like 98% of bitcoiners are

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focused on that but then you have all

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this this other stuff that's happening

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on on the side like we're seeing

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potentially more ofac compliant mining

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happening we're seeing um uh kyc mining

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pools become popular we're

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seeing uh you know miners potentially

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trying to censor certain certain types

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of transactions not even just ofac

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complying transactions but uh

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transactions that don't have ordinals in

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them or nfts so I want to bring you on

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to get get your take and understanding

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of how you currently see the Bitcoin

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ecosystem I actually haven't been

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following that closely I'm over here in

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Monero land using my my digital cash

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talking about that all the time uh but I

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see these things going on and I want to

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try to have a better understanding of of

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what what is really happening that's

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that's why I wanted to reach out to you

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sure let's do it I haven't been

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following the monkey jpex on bitcoin

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that much either but the mining stuff

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and everything is interesting so yeah

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let's let's start with that because I

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think the first time I had you on was I

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don't know was maybe three years ago now

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I don't know like like we say

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everything's moving so fast and we had a

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fantastic conversation it was about an

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article or a Blog you had posted where

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you laid out um what ofac compliant May

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compliance may look like on the Bitcoin

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mining Network and you kind of played

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out the game theory of how it could

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happen uh and this was this was early on

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this was before we had even I think I

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think even seen the first attempts at

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doing it and you kind of described how

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it could could happen and then how

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perhaps the larger mining Network could

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start could start to adopt it and do

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that so why don't we talk about that

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issue because I think recently we saw

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some other uh attempts at mo mo you know

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moving the the the Bitcoin mining

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ecosystem in this direction what is your

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current take there have things kind of

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played out to what you had originally

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theorized or are they starting to play

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out in that in that way so

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uh not necessarily I think there's a

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qualitative switch uh which happens when

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more than half of the miners start

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sensoring and they start sensoring also

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blocks of uh of the non- censoring

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miners that's the that's uh the point

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when you will have completely censored

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Bitcoin so I will I will explain what

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that means that would mean basically a

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soft Fork uh so for those who are kind

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of Lo lost in terms of soft fork and

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hard Fork so Monero does hard Fork um I

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think roughly every six months if I'm

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not mistaken or maybe once a year and

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hard Fork um is um relaxing of the rules

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so it introduces a new feature by saying

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okay uh now uh something that was not a

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valid trans C setion or a valid block

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will will be a valid block a soft Fork

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um is relax uh uh is um not relaxing but

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it's making the rules more strict so

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that would be censorship for example uh

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but uh it's

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also uh also a way to introduce new

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features for example uh segit was a was

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a soft Fork um on on bitcoin so um so if

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let let's say all the miners at the at

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the same time they decide okay uh no

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monkey jpex you know if we identify that

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this is a bad transaction we will just

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not mine it uh so all the users that are

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running their node

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software they see a valid chain uh it

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passes all the checks because uh it just

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doesn't include some transactions but uh

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the transactions that are included are

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all valid so miners can introduce soft

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fork for hard Fork you need to convince

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every note Runner to actually upgrade as

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well uh So Soft Fork is backwards

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compatible you don't have to touch your

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Note

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software uh and uh you

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basically uh like uh unless you were

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looking at the M Pool and some auditing

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P Pages you wouldn't even notice that a

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soft Fork happened without without you

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doing anything so it's basically not

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including um

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transactions of certain type or um or

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based on some kind of rule for example

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uh the uh ofc U sanction address or

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monkey jpeg or whatever uh to Big op

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return op return is a way to include

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data so some some notes allow only 40

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bytes some notes allow 80 bytes and

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don't propagate don't mine um so uh for

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soft Fork uh you need uh compliance of

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more than half of the hash hash rate

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that's the that's the rule uh other than

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that uh what would happen is that uh a

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sensoring minor could say okay I'm not

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including the monkey jpeg but uh the

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next minor will include it because it

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pays the fee so what is happening right

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now is that there's a mining pool uh

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called ocean uh which uh doesn't include

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certain transactions it's based I think

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one one of the rules is uh it's based on

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the length of the oper turn uh which uh

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uh covers not only monkey jpex but uh uh

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if I uh understand it correct irly or

255
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also uh the first transaction in Samurai

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coin joint for example the world so

257
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so s yeah the whirlpool transactions

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right in Samurai are effectively being

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filtered

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out uh I'm not yes yes yes you're right

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um so uh so what happens is okay uh the

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ocean pool um is is mining it sees some

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transactions in the mempool but it

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decides according to its rules I am not

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going to include this transaction

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because uh uh I'm configured to reject

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these kind of

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transactions uh so they mine a block

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without these transactions included even

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though they pay uh large enough fee high

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enough fee and uh what happens uh

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because it's a minority pool what

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happens is that uh the next Miner will

274
00:13:29,839 --> 00:13:35,440
probably mine

275
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:38,320
it so there are a few things to uh to

276
00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:42,320
unpack here so first of all

277
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:44,880
um the only thing that happens is that

278
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,199
uh the transactions are mined a little

279
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:51,560
bit later I don't know what's the

280
00:13:47,199 --> 00:13:53,639
current hash rate of ocean but uh but uh

281
00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:56,199
when when I was looking at it they they

282
00:13:53,639 --> 00:13:59,560
created one block per week or something

283
00:13:56,199 --> 00:14:01,759
so it's not like you know you're waiting

284
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:05,519
twice as long or something for for your

285
00:14:01,759 --> 00:14:08,160
transaction to it was actually um a bit

286
00:14:05,519 --> 00:14:10,680
of research um of people who who were

287
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:12,360
looking at mempool and seeing what

288
00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:14,720
transactions should be included in the

289
00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:18,079
next block and why they were not

290
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:20,720
included to figure out that what kind of

291
00:14:18,079 --> 00:14:23,880
transactions they're uh they're not

292
00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:27,040
including uh from the point of view of

293
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:29,800
for example Samurai warple

294
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:32,639
user uh it's not a big problem they they

295
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:34,759
will just wait one more one more block

296
00:14:32,639 --> 00:14:39,440
and it's okay so far because of the hash

297
00:14:34,759 --> 00:14:42,519
rate uh from the point of view of Miner

298
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:47,120
uh that is using the ocean mining pool

299
00:14:42,519 --> 00:14:48,720
uh they're losing on fees because uh the

300
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,639
the mining pool the software of the

301
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:54,639
mining pool decided okay uh we are not

302
00:14:51,639 --> 00:14:57,199
mining this transaction even though we

303
00:14:54,639 --> 00:15:00,360
would make more in fees by including

304
00:14:57,199 --> 00:15:02,600
this transaction so basically if you are

305
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:07,000
a user of this pool you're not

306
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:09,279
maximizing your profit so uh so um first

307
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,560
of all I think it's not a good service

308
00:15:09,279 --> 00:15:15,839
for the miners right now because they're

309
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:20,959
losing some Revenue uh probably it will

310
00:15:15,839 --> 00:15:25,560
not be much but uh but still I think the

311
00:15:20,959 --> 00:15:29,759
service that the pool provides is uh

312
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:32,959
um well they they they provide um uh

313
00:15:29,759 --> 00:15:38,120
kind of reducing the V variability of

314
00:15:32,959 --> 00:15:41,399
rewards uh by splitting the rewards of

315
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:45,519
the proportional to the hash rate uh to

316
00:15:41,399 --> 00:15:47,639
all the miners so normally if you are if

317
00:15:45,519 --> 00:15:50,680
you would be a solo Miner if you would

318
00:15:47,639 --> 00:15:54,319
not mine in a mining pool you would find

319
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:57,440
you know one block for per I don't know

320
00:15:54,319 --> 00:16:00,199
five years depending on your hash rate

321
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:02,680
um if you use a mining pool the goal is

322
00:16:00,199 --> 00:16:07,440
to have the have basically the same

323
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:09,440
reward but split over the time uh um or

324
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,480
distributed over the over the time as

325
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:15,639
you're as you're

326
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:17,920
mining so uh right now um it's I think

327
00:16:15,639 --> 00:16:22,040
not a very good service for the miners

328
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:25,519
but uh but it's not a big problem so my

329
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:31,440
article was about this this qualitative

330
00:16:25,519 --> 00:16:34,600
switch so what if um ocean said uh that

331
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:37,880
not only I do not M these transactions

332
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,920
but if anyone else Minds them I will

333
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,000
discard the block that's the soft Fork I

334
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:45,959
will say

335
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:48,440
okay someone else might uh uh whatever

336
00:16:45,959 --> 00:16:50,759
Let's uh let's pick the warpool

337
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,920
transaction someone else mind the

338
00:16:50,759 --> 00:16:54,880
wordpool

339
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:57,079
transaction and because of my

340
00:16:54,880 --> 00:17:00,079
configuration I decided that this is not

341
00:16:57,079 --> 00:17:03,319
a valid block so I will throw it out and

342
00:17:00,079 --> 00:17:07,439
I don't I don't care about the block and

343
00:17:03,319 --> 00:17:10,439
I will continue uh mining the chain uh

344
00:17:07,439 --> 00:17:15,760
that doesn't include uh this block so

345
00:17:10,439 --> 00:17:17,880
right now because ocean has almost uh uh

346
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:20,679
it it has very very small hash rate

347
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:25,199
compared to the rest of the network like

348
00:17:20,679 --> 00:17:28,480
0.4% or something um what would happen

349
00:17:25,199 --> 00:17:30,280
is that ocean would not mine any any

350
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:34,000
blocks and they would basically

351
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:37,760
disappear from the radar but what if uh

352
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:42,799
ocean became part of a cartel or part of

353
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:45,559
a similarly configured um U mining pools

354
00:17:42,799 --> 00:17:48,200
that would have more than half of the HH

355
00:17:45,559 --> 00:17:51,720
rate then the situation would flip

356
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:54,679
completely because the minority miners

357
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:58,840
would include these transactions but the

358
00:17:54,679 --> 00:18:01,880
majority would reject them so actually

359
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:04,240
the miners that were not sensoring would

360
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:09,320
be left out they they would not be part

361
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:12,840
of the of the longest proof of work uh

362
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:16,799
uh chain or didn't include the the most

363
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:18,919
work which is the Criterium for uh for

364
00:18:16,799 --> 00:18:22,000
which chain is actually the truth as

365
00:18:18,919 --> 00:18:24,080
seen um by the network so even though

366
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:30,559
they would be sensoring uh what would

367
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:33,679
happen is that U uh that uh basically

368
00:18:30,559 --> 00:18:35,880
even even if my note would see okay

369
00:18:33,679 --> 00:18:37,080
these guys are not including some some

370
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,320
of the valid

371
00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:43,799
transactions uh the rule is I follow the

372
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:48,280
longest chain that follows the rules so

373
00:18:43,799 --> 00:18:52,480
I would uh um so my note without again

374
00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:54,480
any sensoring changes um uh in

375
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,159
configuration in my node my node would

376
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,960
just follow the sensoring

377
00:18:56,159 --> 00:19:02,799
chain um so right now now it's not a

378
00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:06,799
problem uh there are there is uh

379
00:19:02,799 --> 00:19:09,360
actually to the to uh credit of uh ocean

380
00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:11,720
what they are uh trying to implement as

381
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:12,799
soon as possible is a protocol called

382
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,720
stratum

383
00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:18,240
2 uh I think I mentioned it last time I

384
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:22,720
was on the on the show as well and there

385
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:24,799
are there is uh I think one or two um

386
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:28,400
one or two pools that already

387
00:19:24,799 --> 00:19:31,720
implemented it um it's a new protocol uh

388
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:34,559
for mining uh which allows the end

389
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:36,280
miners to construct the block so it

390
00:19:34,559 --> 00:19:39,200
doesn't it wouldn't matter if you use

391
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:41,799
this protocol to connect to the pool uh

392
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,640
The Miner itself would provide a block

393
00:19:41,799 --> 00:19:47,200
template and it doesn't matter how the

394
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:50,000
how the pool is configured because uh

395
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:52,360
The Miner would mine a valid block and

396
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:55,559
they would just broadcast it uh uh to

397
00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:59,559
the network and uh it does so so in this

398
00:19:55,559 --> 00:20:01,559
case um uh uh what matters is the

399
00:19:59,559 --> 00:20:04,360
configuration of the of the end minor

400
00:20:01,559 --> 00:20:07,559
not of the pool so that that would be

401
00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:10,720
great uh it's being slowly deployed uh

402
00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:12,799
it's uh I'm joking that it's a little

403
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:16,559
bit like the light Network that used to

404
00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:19,640
be 18 months in the future for a few

405
00:20:16,559 --> 00:20:21,720
years now now now lightning is quite

406
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:24,360
okay so so stratum has been in

407
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:26,880
development for stratum 2 has been in

408
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:29,960
development for quite a long time too

409
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:35,679
but now it's slowly being deployed and

410
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:39,240
um as um uh as uh miners start using it

411
00:20:35,679 --> 00:20:43,000
I think um I think it's going to help a

412
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:47,480
lot uh so that's the that that's the

413
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:50,880
kind of first overview uh and one major

414
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:53,280
question right now is who are the miners

415
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:55,919
or pools depending on who creates the

416
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:58,640
block templates where are they and what

417
00:20:55,919 --> 00:21:03,440
do what do they have to do

418
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:07,159
because if I was for example in the US

419
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:11,039
and the state told me you cannot Mine

420
00:21:07,159 --> 00:21:13,400
Blocks uh that include the sanction

421
00:21:11,039 --> 00:21:15,400
transactions otherwise whatever you'll

422
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:19,400
go to jail or you'll have to pay a fine

423
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:23,159
or something I wouldn't want to threaten

424
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:25,559
my business by including some you know

425
00:21:23,159 --> 00:21:27,480
North Korean moneyer or something like

426
00:21:25,559 --> 00:21:30,039
that so I would say okay screw them I I

427
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,679
will not earn this little fee and I will

428
00:21:30,039 --> 00:21:35,880
just not mind the

429
00:21:31,679 --> 00:21:37,720
transaction um so some of the pools uh

430
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,799
that were not including these sanction

431
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:44,120
transactions we doing it because of this

432
00:21:39,799 --> 00:21:46,520
okay I I I'm running a business uh I'm

433
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:51,679
um I need to mine the blog reward and

434
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:57,039
the fees and uh and um

435
00:21:51,679 --> 00:22:00,039
uh uh and I pay for electricity so you

436
00:21:57,039 --> 00:22:00,039
know

437
00:22:01,279 --> 00:22:09,279
why make 20 bucks by including business

438
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:11,159
let someone else mine it so so this is

439
00:22:09,279 --> 00:22:14,159
kind of the situation right now it's not

440
00:22:11,159 --> 00:22:17,679
a problem because um some other minor

441
00:22:14,159 --> 00:22:21,279
whatever in Russia in China or wherever

442
00:22:17,679 --> 00:22:23,919
else in Europe in Paraguay uh will mind

443
00:22:21,279 --> 00:22:28,480
this transaction so right now it's not a

444
00:22:23,919 --> 00:22:31,000
problem what will be a problem is if if

445
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,960
uh the state comes to the miner and says

446
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,799
not only you can't mine a block with

447
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:38,480
these transactions but if someone else

448
00:22:35,799 --> 00:22:40,360
does you have to treat it as invalid

449
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,240
block you know it's not a valid

450
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:45,440
transaction and if you continue with

451
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:47,480
this chain uh you have a problem you

452
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:52,559
know jail or

453
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:55,799
fine um uh then the question is uh okay

454
00:22:52,559 --> 00:22:59,240
uh so what's the hash rate of people

455
00:22:55,799 --> 00:23:02,960
that uh that have this rule forced upon

456
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:05,240
them you know it doesn't have to be uh

457
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,720
you know evil minor or something like

458
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:11,200
that you know probably you if you were

459
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:17,440
mining you you invested in A6 and a Data

460
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:20,320
Center and if some some whatever SEC FBI

461
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:23,720
of or whatever kind of Agents you have

462
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:27,000
comes with a gun and says okay do your

463
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:29,080
thing but except of this transaction and

464
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,240
except of blocks that contain these

465
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:34,600
transactions you will probably comply I

466
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:38,520
I I know that I would definitely uh I'm

467
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:41,200
not uh in the mood for going to jail for

468
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:46,400
for including some transaction

469
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:50,240
so so this is the reason why actually uh

470
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:54,200
people have been working on stratum 2 uh

471
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:57,559
uh in order to say I didn't mind this

472
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:59,880
you know we only coordinate payouts for

473
00:23:57,559 --> 00:23:59,880
the

474
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,400
I mean for the mining pool you know so

475
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:07,640
the mining pool can say okay we didn't

476
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:10,279
mind the transaction The Miner actually

477
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,720
does the mining and creates the blocks

478
00:24:10,279 --> 00:24:15,720
we only distribute rewards that's our

479
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,880
business we don't do anything else so we

480
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:21,279
have no control of what kind of

481
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:24,279
transactions the the miners include so

482
00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:27,520
that's kind of the high level overview

483
00:24:24,279 --> 00:24:30,360
okay okay maybe more than high level oh

484
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:33,760
that was fantastic so how do you see

485
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:36,120
things now compared to when you first

486
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:40,120
started uh talking about the the

487
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:42,039
direction things may go um is so is

488
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:45,679
stratum there as a solution and we don't

489
00:24:42,039 --> 00:24:48,799
have to worry about it or is there a

490
00:24:45,679 --> 00:24:51,640
scenario where we potentially do start

491
00:24:48,799 --> 00:24:53,120
to see censorship on the mining Network

492
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,120
because of these things playing out

493
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:57,240
where governments come down they mandate

494
00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:58,919
they M mandate ofac compliant

495
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,960
transactions

496
00:24:58,919 --> 00:25:04,200
uh and they mandate that miners can't

497
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:07,720
mine on top of uh transactions that

498
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:10,880
aren't ofac compliant or it's not a it's

499
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:13,240
not a problem um stratum or something

500
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:16,480
else will solve

501
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:19,799
it uh I hope Straton will solve it now

502
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:23,679
it's used by only some first pools so

503
00:25:19,799 --> 00:25:25,679
it's very very early on so uh the the

504
00:25:23,679 --> 00:25:28,559
answer we don't have to worry about it

505
00:25:25,679 --> 00:25:32,880
will become when um majority of hash

506
00:25:28,559 --> 00:25:34,039
rate switches to to this kind of um uh

507
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:39,320
this kind of

508
00:25:34,039 --> 00:25:42,600
protocol um also if it is just us who uh

509
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:44,799
mandates this I don't think us has

510
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,200
majority of hash rate right now so I

511
00:25:44,799 --> 00:25:49,679
wouldn't worry about it uh it's

512
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:52,320
basically uh miners would probably move

513
00:25:49,679 --> 00:25:55,640
somewhere else because if with this rule

514
00:25:52,320 --> 00:26:00,360
they will uh they will not be

515
00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:04,120
profitable uh but uh the problem is not

516
00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:08,080
local uh local rule by local I mean

517
00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:11,240
Federal us wise uh but the problem is if

518
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:14,120
this is enforced by uh by an

519
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:17,520
organization such as the the financial

520
00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:20,600
action task force which makes Global

521
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,799
anti-money laundering rules I don't know

522
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:27,760
how well they can enforce

523
00:26:22,799 --> 00:26:29,960
this uh but this is possible uh I think

524
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,840
usually where those rules derive from

525
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,960
right it usually starts with with them

526
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,000
and then countries start adopting from

527
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,200
there

528
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:41,559
right depends on the rule but that's one

529
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:44,080
of the that's one of the ways that these

530
00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:47,279
rules are introduced sometimes it's us

531
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:49,960
or Europe introducing it and then uh

532
00:26:47,279 --> 00:26:53,159
Financial action task force adopting it

533
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:56,559
sometimes it's the other way around uh

534
00:26:53,159 --> 00:26:59,679
for example the the latest uh European

535
00:26:56,559 --> 00:27:05,200
anti-money laundering in

536
00:26:59,679 --> 00:27:07,880
directive uh is based on um on these

537
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:10,000
fat recommendations they call it

538
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,320
recommendations because you know it's

539
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:15,200
it's not a regulation it's just a

540
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:19,159
recommendation um so they were enforced

541
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:21,039
even before this uh uh this rule U was

542
00:27:19,159 --> 00:27:24,200
adopted by European

543
00:27:21,039 --> 00:27:27,559
Parliament uh and the the way uh that

544
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:31,840
these rules can be enforced because um

545
00:27:27,559 --> 00:27:37,120
fincial action task force is a nonprofit

546
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:39,480
U uh they sit in in offices of um oecd

547
00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:42,120
in Paris you know and it's I don't know

548
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,440
15 people or 30 people I don't know how

549
00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:46,760
how many and they have no you know no

550
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:49,000
one voted for them they're just there

551
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,760
and they're writing their papers

552
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:55,000
so why do they matter you know why why

553
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:57,960
should I comply uh with what they write

554
00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:02,159
in in in their PDFs and publish on the

555
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:04,679
website um and the thing is that uh it's

556
00:28:02,159 --> 00:28:08,480
enforced uh through Network effects of

557
00:28:04,679 --> 00:28:14,039
the payment networks uh so this uh this

558
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:18,880
strategy was actually uh I think used um

559
00:28:14,039 --> 00:28:21,519
in in context of Finance um uh and tax

560
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:26,080
enforcement I would say by the US with

561
00:28:21,519 --> 00:28:28,080
the uh with the fatka uh law uh which

562
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:31,519
was made in the same way

563
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:34,000
uh I don't know if you if the the um

564
00:28:31,519 --> 00:28:39,679
viewers and listeners are familiar with

565
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:42,440
um with fatka um it's a US law that uh

566
00:28:39,679 --> 00:28:45,320
is uh for tax compliance and for

567
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:49,200
reporting of us tax residents and

568
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:52,720
citizens or us persons as they call it

569
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:55,320
they always make up this weird words

570
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:59,399
that you know but I I know I'm

571
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,399
definitely not a US person that

572
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,440
I still have to fill the form though so

573
00:29:01,679 --> 00:29:06,720
that pisses me off a little bit anyway

574
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:10,760
um so the way that it's enforced is they

575
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:12,760
say um dear foreign Banks you have two

576
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:15,240
options you either

577
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:18,039
comply or you don't have to comply you

578
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:21,039
know we have no leg legislative power

579
00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:23,960
over you but if you don't comply if you

580
00:29:21,039 --> 00:29:26,840
touch the US Financial system we will

581
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:29,080
just tax it 30% by default so it's your

582
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:33,039
choice you're free to

583
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:34,919
choose uh but let us know if you if you

584
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:37,399
are complying and if you're not

585
00:29:34,919 --> 00:29:40,720
complying we will just text you uh if

586
00:29:37,399 --> 00:29:44,120
you whatever if a customer buys a US

587
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:48,440
Treasury or US Stock or anything we will

588
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:51,039
just by default uh uh uh take 30% give

589
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:53,240
it to the IRS and then you can stay non

590
00:29:51,039 --> 00:29:56,799
compliant so everyone compli there is

591
00:29:53,240 --> 00:30:00,159
not a single entity in the banking

592
00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:04,279
system right now who didn't comply uh

593
00:30:00,159 --> 00:30:07,039
with the uh with the fatka regulation so

594
00:30:04,279 --> 00:30:09,399
uh so it's the same with this financial

595
00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:13,279
action task force uh these are

596
00:30:09,399 --> 00:30:14,480
recommendations uh but uh if you want

597
00:30:13,279 --> 00:30:16,600
let's say you have a financial

598
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:19,559
institution you are whatever electronic

599
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:22,000
money transmitter such as venmo or you

600
00:30:19,559 --> 00:30:26,279
you uh want to join the payment Network

601
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:28,559
sepa payment Network a wires or whatever

602
00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:30,519
kind of payment Network work you will

603
00:30:28,559 --> 00:30:33,720
probably connect to another financial

604
00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:36,720
institution and their first question is

605
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:39,519
okay what is your AML policy what kind

606
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:42,679
of recommendations do you follow oh you

607
00:30:39,519 --> 00:30:44,640
don't follow the industry standard

608
00:30:42,679 --> 00:30:46,440
Financial action task for regulations

609
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,679
sorry we cannot connect you to the rest

610
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:53,799
of the banking system

611
00:30:48,679 --> 00:30:57,320
goodbye um so the question why I'm why

612
00:30:53,799 --> 00:31:01,440
why this super long tangent uh the

613
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:05,320
question is how connected uh do the

614
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:08,279
miners have to be to the financial

615
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:11,600
system so if I'm a

616
00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:13,039
minor I probably need a bank account uh

617
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,320
to pay for

618
00:31:13,039 --> 00:31:19,639
electricity if I come to a bank and I

619
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:22,720
say hello I'm a company uh they ask me

620
00:31:19,639 --> 00:31:25,279
first okay so what do you do uh so I

621
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,279
will have to say that I'm a minor

622
00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:28,360
because they will see transactions from

623
00:31:27,279 --> 00:31:31,799
changes

624
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:34,760
probably uh and of course you're not

625
00:31:31,799 --> 00:31:36,559
supposed to lie and defraud the banker

626
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:39,880
you should always answer

627
00:31:36,559 --> 00:31:41,559
truthfully um by the way this is kind of

628
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,760
weird because when I was starting my

629
00:31:41,559 --> 00:31:46,159
first business no one asked me what I do

630
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:49,720
you know they were they are my service

631
00:31:46,159 --> 00:31:51,720
provider and they I'm paying them to

632
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,799
send and receive money and store money

633
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:56,320
for me what is their business what what

634
00:31:53,799 --> 00:32:00,480
I do that's there was no opportunity for

635
00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:02,399
you to lie just yes yes hello ah you you

636
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,720
started a new company here you go here's

637
00:32:02,399 --> 00:32:08,919
a bank account now they ask a bunch of

638
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:11,760
questions which is kind of weird I think

639
00:32:08,919 --> 00:32:13,919
anyway so they ask you this and uh and

640
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:17,880
when you say okay I'm a minor they say

641
00:32:13,919 --> 00:32:19,840
ah okay so do you comply with this uh uh

642
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,600
anti-money laundering what what kind of

643
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:25,480
transactions do you mine have you do you

644
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:28,840
have a policy that you uh that you are

645
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:31,360
not mining this uh bad transactions do

646
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:34,200
you have a policy that you don't follow

647
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:36,240
um follow the bad chain with with the

648
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,519
money laundering and and all these

649
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:41,279
things so this can this can definitely

650
00:32:38,519 --> 00:32:44,880
happen uh in my original article it was

651
00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:47,919
not actually about sanction transactions

652
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:52,600
that much um my first question was this

653
00:32:47,919 --> 00:32:55,080
all this ESG craze of uh uh

654
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:58,080
environmental social and governance

655
00:32:55,080 --> 00:33:00,840
things that is I don't know about us but

656
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:04,159
in um in Europe it's getting kind of

657
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:08,639
crazy so uh so what I can ask you is

658
00:33:04,159 --> 00:33:11,880
okay uh can you um uh can you prove that

659
00:33:08,639 --> 00:33:14,399
uh that you use whatever sustainable

660
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:17,159
green energy oh okay so you're a minor

661
00:33:14,399 --> 00:33:20,200
you're not using green energy goodbye we

662
00:33:17,159 --> 00:33:23,639
cannot open a bank account for you so

663
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:27,480
this is a way how this can be enforced

664
00:33:23,639 --> 00:33:28,880
without a single law passed so that's

665
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,480
that's interesting you know because we

666
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:34,480
are often thinking in these terms okay

667
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,840
so politicians you know they they

668
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,799
introduce these bills they vote for them

669
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,080
the president signs them and all these

670
00:33:38,799 --> 00:33:45,960
you know Democratic

671
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:49,240
dance but uh but the rules uh in finance

672
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:51,519
are actually a bit faster than that

673
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,919
sometimes so it's really really would

674
00:33:51,519 --> 00:33:56,720
just be the banking industry

675
00:33:53,919 --> 00:33:59,760
self-regulating right like like you said

676
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:03,039
um yes Financial action task force

677
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:05,320
coming up with these rules or some other

678
00:34:03,039 --> 00:34:07,840
organization uh and then the

679
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:10,359
banks adopting them and then if you want

680
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:14,440
to work with the banks in any way you're

681
00:34:10,359 --> 00:34:17,839
forced to to comply yes and as as you're

682
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:22,399
pointing out Mo as much as we the goal

683
00:34:17,839 --> 00:34:25,119
is to opt out uh practically speaking if

684
00:34:22,399 --> 00:34:28,119
you're running a large mining Network

685
00:34:25,119 --> 00:34:30,960
you have to usually interface

686
00:34:28,119 --> 00:34:32,599
with the traditional system in some way

687
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,200
right whether it's paying your electric

688
00:34:32,599 --> 00:34:38,320
bill whatever it is you're running a

689
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:40,520
business um right so it's it's very hard

690
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,679
to avoid that interface with the

691
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,440
traditional system and that's well

692
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:46,720
that's why that's why I like Monero

693
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:49,040
because the the point of Monero is you

694
00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:53,079
know everyone should be running their

695
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:55,879
own minor and uh right then you know

696
00:34:53,079 --> 00:34:59,160
like if you are U if you have a

697
00:34:55,879 --> 00:35:02,359
residential you know property uh you're

698
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:05,280
just paying electricity and uh and the

699
00:35:02,359 --> 00:35:08,920
worst thing that can happen to you is

700
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:11,040
you use uh more energy than usual and

701
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,560
they come and check if you're growing

702
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:18,040
wheat which is what is happening quite a

703
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:19,200
lot uh but uh for example they care more

704
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,839
about whether or not you're running a

705
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,520
minor than what than whether you're

706
00:35:20,839 --> 00:35:24,480
growing weed I think it's it's become a

707
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:28,119
larger potentially a larger

708
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:32,359
CME yeah yeah I for example I produce my

709
00:35:28,119 --> 00:35:34,960
own energy or part of it uh I I have

710
00:35:32,359 --> 00:35:37,000
recently installed a photovoltaic system

711
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:40,880
and it's and it's great so even even

712
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:46,200
this is you know with with uh uh with

713
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:50,520
Monero it's more um the idea is okay if

714
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:53,160
it's peer-to-peer cash uh maybe you know

715
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:56,280
Piers should be should be mining so at

716
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:58,960
at least uh in theory uh I think in

717
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:01,960
practice a lot of mining is done by some

718
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:04,880
bot Nets or something and I I'm not very

719
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,079
familiar but I think it's uh also what

720
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:10,160
is happening in

721
00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:12,839
Monero um but uh this this ship has

722
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:17,400
sailed in Bitcoin there there is no way

723
00:36:12,839 --> 00:36:19,480
you can be a profitable minor uh at home

724
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:22,960
uh at scale you know you need expensive

725
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:26,119
Hardware that takes like uh I don't know

726
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:29,160
kilowatts of electricity and it's not

727
00:36:26,119 --> 00:36:31,839
something can do in your camper van

728
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:34,560
or well the the other issue too so you

729
00:36:31,839 --> 00:36:37,079
have the the the tendency towards Asic

730
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:41,040
mining right um and that like you said

731
00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:42,119
ship a sale there it's that's forever

732
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,400
that's the way it's going to be if

733
00:36:42,119 --> 00:36:45,640
anything I don't I don't know how you

734
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,440
how bad you see it getting in terms of

735
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,880
centralization of

736
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:52,319
miners um but the other issue is just

737
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:55,040
the transparency of the chain so they H

738
00:36:52,319 --> 00:36:57,240
you you have this ability to censor

739
00:36:55,040 --> 00:37:00,319
transactions because you can

740
00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:03,880
peer into them and see the transactions

741
00:37:00,319 --> 00:37:06,839
themselves um which I don't foresee

742
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:11,200
Bitcoin ever overcoming that issue as

743
00:37:06,839 --> 00:37:15,200
well right me neither um uh what a

744
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:19,640
bitcoiner would say to this is that uh

745
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:23,160
uh for example uh if uh someone says

746
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:24,839
that uh uh Monero is basically doing

747
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:28,560
coin join on every

748
00:37:24,839 --> 00:37:31,200
transaction uh or kind of privacy way

749
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:34,280
they can say okay then then if you

750
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:37,720
cannot exclude sanction transactions

751
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:41,040
then mining Monero itself is il illegal

752
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:43,200
so so it turns it the the fungibility

753
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,800
basically turns it into either you can

754
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:48,400
mine it or you cannot mine it you know

755
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:52,560
you cannot differentiate among

756
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:55,599
transactions because they um not exactly

757
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:58,520
but they mostly look the same so mono is

758
00:37:55,599 --> 00:38:00,680
fible um but it doesn't mean they cannot

759
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:04,920
say okay

760
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:08,480
uh you have to enforce you know yes it's

761
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:10,839
the same way so so for example um it's

762
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,920
the same with exchanges so many

763
00:38:10,839 --> 00:38:16,319
exchanges uh would refuse uh you know

764
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,880
coin joint transactions for example on

765
00:38:16,319 --> 00:38:21,760
bitcoin um and Monaro people said oh we

766
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:24,520
don't have this problem uh but yes you

767
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:27,000
do have this problem because they will

768
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:30,200
just delist Monero on the exchang not

769
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:32,440
supported at all so so that that's their

770
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,440
solution for the for the coin coin join

771
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,800
so that's that's what happened I think I

772
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:42,040
I was telling the story

773
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:46,400
um uh uh last time I was on here um that

774
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:50,119
uh my friends were running U an ATM

775
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:52,880
network Bitcoin and Monero ATM network

776
00:38:50,119 --> 00:38:55,680
and at some some point The Exchange

777
00:38:52,880 --> 00:39:00,040
which supports Monero by itself it has

778
00:38:55,680 --> 00:39:01,960
Monero Euro mono USD pair said oh you're

779
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,680
running uh an

780
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:07,599
ATM uh you don't know who your customers

781
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:10,880
are because you allow Anonymous deposits

782
00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:14,319
and withdrawals all good but you need to

783
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:16,720
delist Mono we will not uh support you

784
00:39:14,319 --> 00:39:18,760
as a company using this pair even though

785
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:22,240
we allow it on the on the exchange you

786
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:24,480
know uh because you cannot show that the

787
00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:27,040
transactions are not Co joined that you

788
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:31,760
know it's not used for money wering and

789
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:33,920
so on um because of this uh sorry uh you

790
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:36,280
can be our customers as long as you

791
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,640
don't support Monero so this is what

792
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:42,920
what happened so it's the same that can

793
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:45,880
happen for mining on the other hand it's

794
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:48,920
um if it's not banned it's a very nice

795
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:51,920
plausible deniability know because now

796
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:55,240
you're kind of um

797
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:57,359
um well you if you are running a

798
00:39:55,240 --> 00:39:58,560
business you are supposed to follow

799
00:39:57,359 --> 00:40:02,119
these sanctions you know you are

800
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:05,960
supposed to check if you're not um not

801
00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:09,359
helping these sanctions person to use

802
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:11,520
their money um and with Monero you just

803
00:40:09,359 --> 00:40:14,000
have one last problem because there's no

804
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,400
way to tell so you know you did all you

805
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,960
could to tell if you're not helping

806
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:22,680
sanctioned persons you looked at the

807
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:26,079
transactions all look the same so uh no

808
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:28,160
problem so so yes it is easier as long

809
00:40:26,079 --> 00:40:31,720
as Is Not Bent

810
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:33,839
completely that's that's kind easy

811
00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:36,079
decision and we don't know how that

812
00:40:33,839 --> 00:40:39,319
would play out either right I mean at

813
00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:42,240
that point I I I personally think here

814
00:40:39,319 --> 00:40:43,880
in the us if we were to move in that

815
00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:46,119
direction there would at least be some

816
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,960
kind of Supreme Court case or or

817
00:40:46,119 --> 00:40:52,040
something that would have to happen uh

818
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:54,880
for for us to get to the point where

819
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:57,359
Monero is actually banned by the United

820
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:59,720
States government and then I think you

821
00:40:57,359 --> 00:41:01,640
start to go into the territory of you

822
00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:04,240
know you're it's equivalent to Banning

823
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:09,800
the use of just encryption tools overall

824
00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:12,960
right um so for example this happened in

825
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:16,880
um I'm not sure if only Dubai or whole

826
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:20,440
United Arab Emirates they ban uh privacy

827
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:23,119
coins yes what is interesting they

828
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:25,839
explicitly allowed

829
00:41:23,119 --> 00:41:28,079
Litecoin so it's it's written that

830
00:41:25,839 --> 00:41:30,040
Litecoin is allowed which has the mimble

831
00:41:28,079 --> 00:41:33,079
wimble extension blocks which are pretty

832
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:35,599
private as well I didn't real okay it's

833
00:41:33,079 --> 00:41:38,160
kind of weird I don't know how that

834
00:41:35,599 --> 00:41:40,560
turns out but somebody there somebody

835
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:43,720
over there owns a lot of Litecoin

836
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:45,760
perhaps yeah or or maybe they wrote the

837
00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:48,079
law before before the mimble wimble

838
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:51,040
extension block I don't know uh but

839
00:41:48,079 --> 00:41:53,960
there are definitely countries that that

840
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:58,119
went this uh went on this path of

841
00:41:53,960 --> 00:42:02,520
banning private um transaction I still

842
00:41:58,119 --> 00:42:06,280
hope that us uh will not go this way and

843
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:10,880
will uh will keep parts of Freedom not

844
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:13,280
sure about Europe anymore uh but um well

845
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:16,280
um I'm very hopeful for the for the

846
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:19,839
courts in the in the US not so hopeful

847
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:21,920
when I read uh this uh lady that you

848
00:42:19,839 --> 00:42:24,559
have there Senator

849
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:28,960
Warren oh my

850
00:42:24,559 --> 00:42:33,520
god did see did you see that she's uh

851
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:35,599
she's uh she has an un hosted wallet in

852
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:39,359
her

853
00:42:35,599 --> 00:42:41,960
brain she wants to B ban our our our our

854
00:42:39,359 --> 00:42:45,000
thinking in our brains right ban our

855
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:48,040
memories oh I I I've read that some

856
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:51,079
someone took some words that she said uh

857
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:54,280
and created a wallet out of the words

858
00:42:51,079 --> 00:42:58,599
and sent some uh some money there some

859
00:42:54,280 --> 00:43:01,760
Bitcoin there so now she's so she is she

860
00:42:58,599 --> 00:43:05,000
operates an unhost wallet in her own

861
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:08,400
brain which she wants to ban so quite a

862
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:11,319
nice nice

863
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:13,559
joke yeah I don't see her I haven't been

864
00:43:11,319 --> 00:43:15,839
following that super closely either but

865
00:43:13,559 --> 00:43:18,160
I don't see that I know I know she

866
00:43:15,839 --> 00:43:19,920
gained some traction with that there's

867
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,520
she has some people like you know

868
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,880
whatever co-signing the bill that have

869
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:27,359
come behind her um but I don't see that

870
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:30,720
passing the the way it is I mean I would

871
00:43:27,359 --> 00:43:34,559
be what that shock right she basically

872
00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:37,480
wants to extend the bank secrecy act to

873
00:43:34,559 --> 00:43:40,359
include cryptocurrency where all

874
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:43,839
transactions have to be you know

875
00:43:40,359 --> 00:43:47,520
everybody using Bitcoin have to be kyc

876
00:43:43,839 --> 00:43:49,400
AML and and you know no miners are are

877
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:53,000
considered money transmitters at that

878
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:55,880
point nodes anybody running a node um

879
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,880
and anybody making a Bitcoin transaction

880
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,359
is

881
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,200
of making you know a banking transaction

882
00:43:59,359 --> 00:44:03,079
at that

883
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:05,400
point I don't see it passing either

884
00:44:03,079 --> 00:44:09,760
although I'm not as you know I don't

885
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:12,440
follow it in such a detail in the US uh

886
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,520
but the problem is that uh it's kind of

887
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,760
normalizing the conversation you know

888
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,480
it's uh it's like oh we should be

889
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,960
talking about this this is really a

890
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:25,440
problems and you know some people even

891
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:27,359
introduced the bill um and uh okay if he

892
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,559
doesn't p we should at least be talking

893
00:44:27,359 --> 00:44:31,680
about it and you know it it kind of

894
00:44:29,559 --> 00:44:34,680
changes the conversation so I I think

895
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:39,160
this is the main problem of uh of these

896
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:39,920
bills is that they basically normalize

897
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,119
this

898
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:47,119
conversation of uh it's okay for

899
00:44:43,119 --> 00:44:51,599
governments to force identify you and

900
00:44:47,119 --> 00:44:53,720
look at your every move uh so I don't

901
00:44:51,599 --> 00:44:54,960
like it even though I'm pretty sure it

902
00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:57,960
will not

903
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,960
pass

904
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:07,119
do you love coffee and Monera as much as

905
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,119
we do consider making gratuitous

906
00:45:10,119 --> 00:45:15,160
toorgle digital cash tip directly to the

907
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:17,520
farmers that made it

908
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:20,880
possible proceeds help us grow this

909
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:24,019
channel gratuitous and

910
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,019
[Music]

911
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,880
Monero

912
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:33,680
so kind of um you know give us your

913
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:37,319
overall conclusion then on this topic of

914
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:38,920
essentially censorship in the Bitcoin

915
00:45:37,319 --> 00:45:41,520
mining

916
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:44,400
network is it a problem or is it going

917
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:48,599
to get worse uh ultimately does it does

918
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:51,119
it not matter um and you know if we do

919
00:45:48,599 --> 00:45:54,880
if we do see it

920
00:45:51,119 --> 00:45:57,800
becoming um a part of all Bitcoin

921
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:59,920
transactions what does Bitcoin then

922
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,880
become what what is bitcoin like I don't

923
00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:04,040
I don't see Bitcoin going away anytime

924
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:06,640
soon right uh like we said the you know

925
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:09,680
the the ETF is about to happen it seems

926
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:12,760
like if anything it's it's gaining more

927
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:15,520
adoption but through that process it

928
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:18,480
also seems to be becoming

929
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:21,599
co-opted um do you agree with that

930
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:24,720
overall kind of analysis that that

931
00:46:21,599 --> 00:46:27,160
Bitcoin is is becoming more adopted but

932
00:46:24,720 --> 00:46:33,079
also more defense anged in terms of it

933
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:33,079
its purpose of being uh you know

934
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:39,000
Unstoppable yes you're completely right

935
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:42,319
I don't know what will prevail uh the

936
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:44,440
freedom properties of Bitcoin uh getting

937
00:46:42,319 --> 00:46:47,079
into hands of more and more people

938
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:49,559
that's the adoption on one hand which is

939
00:46:47,079 --> 00:46:53,280
great you know if it's free enough and

940
00:46:49,559 --> 00:46:58,720
it's spreads enough then it will overall

941
00:46:53,280 --> 00:47:00,079
in overall or be uh be a good for uh be

942
00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:03,559
be good for

943
00:47:00,079 --> 00:47:07,359
Liberty um on the other hand it's going

944
00:47:03,559 --> 00:47:09,440
to be also used by a lot of normies and

945
00:47:07,359 --> 00:47:12,319
it's going to be a little bit boring

946
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:15,839
less cypherpunk you know people will say

947
00:47:12,319 --> 00:47:18,119
oh what is this you know Hardware wallet

948
00:47:15,839 --> 00:47:21,400
and addresses I don't understand I will

949
00:47:18,119 --> 00:47:26,800
just log to my broker and I I will just

950
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:29,280
buy the ETF I don't care uh so um so in

951
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:32,000
this case by the way I like that at

952
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:36,040
least it's not proof of stake because uh

953
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:38,960
in this case uh black rock or the or the

954
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:40,400
other ETF operators would have pretty

955
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:43,839
large stake because they will be

956
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:46,839
managing coins so for ethereum this this

957
00:47:43,839 --> 00:47:51,559
the ETF is going to be much bigger

958
00:47:46,839 --> 00:47:55,160
problem I think uh but um uh yeah I I

959
00:47:51,559 --> 00:47:57,440
don't know um what will happen we we see

960
00:47:55,160 --> 00:48:00,440
this kind of normalization of it

961
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:02,359
becoming just another asset uh I don't

962
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:07,200
know if it's good or bad you know I like

963
00:48:02,359 --> 00:48:10,520
to be more on the punk side and you know

964
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:14,280
um I I like you know playing with these

965
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:17,160
Technologies I I used pgp you know

966
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:19,839
bothering my friends to you know cut and

967
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:22,440
paste these strings of encrypted

968
00:48:19,839 --> 00:48:25,000
messages into email and stuff like that

969
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:28,119
and and I like that you know so for me

970
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:31,160
Bitcoin is something else than for a

971
00:48:28,119 --> 00:48:33,720
grandma that wants to just you know have

972
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:37,040
1% of their retirement Savings in

973
00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:39,720
something else than us treasuries or or

974
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:41,800
whatever else so um I don't know what

975
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:44,559
will be the the result as for the

976
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:47,280
censorship itself I wouldn't Panic right

977
00:48:44,559 --> 00:48:49,760
now I think there's a pretty good game

978
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:52,559
plan that we see is actually being

979
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:56,200
followed by bitcoiners which is the

980
00:48:52,559 --> 00:48:58,240
stratum two I think even the fact that

981
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:01,079
everyone is discussing it that there are

982
00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:03,880
there are websites uh and and people who

983
00:49:01,079 --> 00:49:05,559
are analyzing uh the me pool and the

984
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,640
transaction that should have been mined

985
00:49:05,559 --> 00:49:09,720
and they were raising red flags you know

986
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,839
oh there's a transaction that should

987
00:49:09,720 --> 00:49:14,559
have been mined according to the fees

988
00:49:11,839 --> 00:49:15,599
and rules and they were left out for

989
00:49:14,559 --> 00:49:18,079
some

990
00:49:15,599 --> 00:49:20,799
reason people are watching this closely

991
00:49:18,079 --> 00:49:23,640
so it's not people are not lethargic and

992
00:49:20,799 --> 00:49:26,599
you know just watching the price uh

993
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:29,599
something is happening and they are uh

994
00:49:26,599 --> 00:49:32,119
uh so so I like that we have discussion

995
00:49:29,599 --> 00:49:36,119
I like that we have technological

996
00:49:32,119 --> 00:49:39,520
solutions uh and I hope that uh they

997
00:49:36,119 --> 00:49:42,599
will be def deployed fast enough uh in

998
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:45,680
order for this not to be a problem I

999
00:49:42,599 --> 00:49:48,000
don't think future is certain but I'm

1000
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:51,359
optimistic in this case for for the

1001
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:53,599
future of mining at least I think the

1002
00:49:51,359 --> 00:49:57,720
bigger problem is

1003
00:49:53,599 --> 00:49:59,839
the uh the you the usability of uh these

1004
00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:02,640
non-fungible coins you know what can you

1005
00:49:59,839 --> 00:50:05,319
send to The Exchange what you know uh if

1006
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:10,119
I receive Bitcoin as a payment do I have

1007
00:50:05,319 --> 00:50:13,799
to do deep analysis uh uh to see if it's

1008
00:50:10,119 --> 00:50:16,680
not whatever coming from Heck from North

1009
00:50:13,799 --> 00:50:20,520
Korea or something or can I just receive

1010
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:24,520
it you know so so this is a much bigger

1011
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:26,680
problem and uh the only useful solution

1012
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:30,599
to this uh is lightning because it

1013
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:34,440
doesn't have history uh but um but this

1014
00:50:30,599 --> 00:50:37,079
is something that I think um will become

1015
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:39,839
a little bit bigger problem than than

1016
00:50:37,079 --> 00:50:41,960
mining itself yeah that's that's the

1017
00:50:39,839 --> 00:50:45,839
next topic I want to get into good good

1018
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:48,160
segue so what's your your take on the

1019
00:50:45,839 --> 00:50:49,880
lightning Network and and just what

1020
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:53,359
we're seeing with Bitcoin in terms of

1021
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:56,440
its its fees right so that was always

1022
00:50:53,359 --> 00:50:58,359
part of the plan um well not always

1023
00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:00,359
always but at some point became part of

1024
00:50:58,359 --> 00:51:03,880
the plan with the fixed with the fixed

1025
00:51:00,359 --> 00:51:06,119
block size that for for Bitcoin to work

1026
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:08,160
for there to be incentives for the

1027
00:51:06,119 --> 00:51:11,160
miners to continue to mine right for

1028
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:13,359
there to be enough hash power um value

1029
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:14,400
would need to come from somewhere uh and

1030
00:51:13,359 --> 00:51:16,880
if you could only fit so many

1031
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:18,640
transactions in a block then that value

1032
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,440
is going to come from higher and higher

1033
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,880
transaction fees right and we're

1034
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,920
starting to see that and now we're

1035
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:27,000
starting to see it kind of on an

1036
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:28,839
exponential level because the the the

1037
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:31,200
blockchain is being used for things

1038
00:51:28,839 --> 00:51:33,480
other than just

1039
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:37,599
transactions how do you see this playing

1040
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:39,359
out is this is this bad for Bitcoin or

1041
00:51:37,599 --> 00:51:42,119
does this mean Bitcoin just kind of

1042
00:51:39,359 --> 00:51:44,920
becomes something

1043
00:51:42,119 --> 00:51:48,240
else I'm glad that it's happening now

1044
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:50,440
and not when there's 10x more people uh

1045
00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:53,680
because that that would be bad they they

1046
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:56,000
would be pissed so we have a actually

1047
00:51:53,680 --> 00:52:01,920
like a real time

1048
00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:05,119
um uh way to to fix this um so first uh

1049
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:07,359
I would uh like to appreciate the way

1050
00:52:05,119 --> 00:52:11,160
that Monero is solving this problem I

1051
00:52:07,359 --> 00:52:14,119
think uh that is not uh appreciated a

1052
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:16,640
lot but Monero has Dynamic block size

1053
00:52:14,119 --> 00:52:19,920
and tail emission and both of these in

1054
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:22,400
in combination should keep the fees low

1055
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:25,760
and uh and pay for the for the security

1056
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:29,720
budget for the for the mining uh so this

1057
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:32,200
solution will not happen uh on bitcoin

1058
00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:35,119
even though there are bitcoiners who uh

1059
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:37,599
who think at least ta emission is a good

1060
00:52:35,119 --> 00:52:39,880
idea I think Peter Tod had a talk at

1061
00:52:37,599 --> 00:52:41,920
moner atopia about this if I'm not

1062
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:47,079
mistaken yes

1063
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:50,280
um but uh uh but I'm glad that there is

1064
00:52:47,079 --> 00:52:52,799
another system that uh that looks at it

1065
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:55,400
differently because experimentation is

1066
00:52:52,799 --> 00:52:58,079
good and I I think this is uh probably

1067
00:52:55,400 --> 00:53:02,119
good solution so the tail emission what

1068
00:52:58,079 --> 00:53:05,640
what it does so tail emission means that

1069
00:53:02,119 --> 00:53:08,720
uh there will always be a block reward

1070
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:10,599
of new coins so there will always be

1071
00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:13,520
some tiny

1072
00:53:10,599 --> 00:53:18,240
inflation uh it will as a as a

1073
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:20,400
percentage of the of the amount of um

1074
00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:22,359
the the units in circulation it will go

1075
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:25,920
down because it will be fixed at some

1076
00:53:22,359 --> 00:53:28,920
point so percentage

1077
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:33,599
the uh the emission will be lower and

1078
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:36,480
lower uh but what this means is that uh

1079
00:53:33,599 --> 00:53:38,599
for security uh it's not only the people

1080
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:41,200
who make transactions that pay for

1081
00:53:38,599 --> 00:53:44,640
security but also people who who just

1082
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:48,440
hold because the the new units kind of

1083
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:52,000
devalue their their Holdings kind ofx on

1084
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:54,000
the on the holders right yes yes so

1085
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,839
which is happening right now on bitcoin

1086
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:59,760
as well because Bitcoin also has

1087
00:53:55,839 --> 00:54:03,680
emission right now so so right now um

1088
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:08,880
even in this High fee environment uh the

1089
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:12,960
the blog reward uh from the newly minted

1090
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:16,119
coins is uh still at least the same

1091
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:20,200
maybe a little bit higher um uh at least

1092
00:54:16,119 --> 00:54:24,599
until next haling uh so this is way how

1093
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:27,440
Bitcoin finances uh mining as well so uh

1094
00:54:24,599 --> 00:54:31,480
but this end in

1095
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:35,119
uh 2140 or I don't know when exactly I

1096
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:37,520
think some something like that so um so

1097
00:54:35,119 --> 00:54:39,720
monos solution is kind of uh kind of

1098
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:45,040
nice I think

1099
00:54:39,720 --> 00:54:47,920
um so what are Bitcoin is super

1100
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:49,760
conservative so if you say uh tail

1101
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:54,079
emission doesn't matter if you are Peter

1102
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:57,599
tot who has high respect in in Bitcoin

1103
00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:59,920
or is has very good reputation among

1104
00:54:57,599 --> 00:55:02,640
bitcoiners it doesn't matter if he says

1105
00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:04,920
it or someone else you know if you say

1106
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:07,440
oh there will be more than 21 million

1107
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:10,839
Bitcoin you will get laughed out of the

1108
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:13,280
room and explode yeah yeah yeah yes and

1109
00:55:10,839 --> 00:55:17,880
called the [ __ ] coiner of course and and

1110
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:20,079
all these things so uh first of all this

1111
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:23,400
is not a solution like Bitcoin will

1112
00:55:20,079 --> 00:55:26,480
never never pass any anything like this

1113
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:29,000
uh we have seen uh the attempt to

1114
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:31,280
increase the block size uh I would not

1115
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:34,839
be against increasing the block size by

1116
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:38,160
the way I think uh at least temporarily

1117
00:55:34,839 --> 00:55:42,319
it's uh it's quite a nice solution and

1118
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:46,799
uh Bitcoin can sustain um bigger blocks

1119
00:55:42,319 --> 00:55:49,280
uh you know the you need quite a quite a

1120
00:55:46,799 --> 00:55:53,319
powerful Hardware to run a note anyway

1121
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:57,640
these days so I don't see this uh as a

1122
00:55:53,319 --> 00:55:59,599
problem uh but uh also you will be

1123
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:02,760
laughed out of the room if you suggest

1124
00:55:59,599 --> 00:56:04,920
that Bitcoin should 10x the block size

1125
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:08,200
or something like that so we have to

1126
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:11,960
look at other solution other Solutions

1127
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:16,240
one of them that I proposed a while ago

1128
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:17,240
um is using uh side chains uh for

1129
00:56:16,240 --> 00:56:19,000
smaller

1130
00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:20,520
channels uh

1131
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:25,400
so

1132
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:28,039
uh I have written a quite extensive blog

1133
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:31,680
about this I've been trying to spread it

1134
00:56:28,039 --> 00:56:33,720
and every time when when fees came up I

1135
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:37,559
would just paste the link to the blog

1136
00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:41,000
and uh no one was paying attention uh

1137
00:56:37,559 --> 00:56:43,559
and right now actually three days uh

1138
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:46,720
people have been sending each other and

1139
00:56:43,559 --> 00:56:49,000
tweeting links to the blog quite more

1140
00:56:46,720 --> 00:56:52,760
and the developers started to pay

1141
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:55,680
attention so the thing is that uh the

1142
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:59,200
lightning Network is for passing

1143
00:56:55,680 --> 00:57:02,599
Bitcoin around but it doesn't mean it

1144
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:04,119
doesn't necessarily need onchain backing

1145
00:57:02,599 --> 00:57:08,200
for all the

1146
00:57:04,119 --> 00:57:12,520
coins uh so one of the things uh we can

1147
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:16,240
do is called a hosted channel so can say

1148
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:20,000
okay we can have a channel among you and

1149
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:22,640
me so it's uh Channel urri and

1150
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:25,839
Duck and

1151
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:29,240
um uh in this channel we will not back

1152
00:57:25,839 --> 00:57:33,640
it by real Bitcoin we will just create a

1153
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:36,799
let's say a paper Ledger of uh who uh

1154
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:39,440
has what part of the channel and you can

1155
00:57:36,799 --> 00:57:43,920
use this channel even for routing

1156
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:46,760
payments so it's a it's a it's a like

1157
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:49,599
functioning channel that can be used for

1158
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:51,920
everything that uh the liing can be used

1159
00:57:49,599 --> 00:57:58,400
for so for example if if we trust each

1160
00:57:51,920 --> 00:58:01,119
other I can pay uh whatever for uh for

1161
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:03,680
tickets to monotop if it's supported

1162
00:58:01,119 --> 00:58:06,319
lightning through the channel I have

1163
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:10,079
with you without any backing without any

1164
00:58:06,319 --> 00:58:12,280
onchain backing and when I meet you you

1165
00:58:10,079 --> 00:58:14,599
will see okay our Ledger says that you

1166
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:18,680
owe me this much and I will I will pay

1167
00:58:14,599 --> 00:58:21,000
you so this is possible uh it doesn't uh

1168
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:25,680
affect the trust assumptions in the

1169
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:28,160
network in any way the only thing uh so

1170
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:31,599
if we too have to trust each other it

1171
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:35,359
doesn't matter matter that the merchant

1172
00:58:31,599 --> 00:58:37,400
uh if if uh if the merchant trusts us

1173
00:58:35,359 --> 00:58:42,160
because the channel between you and the

1174
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:45,079
merchant for example is fully backed so

1175
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:46,079
so if I pay through you and then then I

1176
00:58:45,079 --> 00:58:49,839
you know

1177
00:58:46,079 --> 00:58:51,799
default uh and I I don't pay you back uh

1178
00:58:49,839 --> 00:58:54,799
it doesn't matter that that the merchant

1179
00:58:51,799 --> 00:58:56,880
is not paid only we are not paid so this

1180
00:58:54,799 --> 00:58:59,799
is a hosted Channel you can do it right

1181
00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:01,680
now it's one of the ways how you can do

1182
00:58:59,799 --> 00:59:05,799
custodial uh

1183
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:09,920
lightning um and now what you can do is

1184
00:59:05,799 --> 00:59:13,240
you can say okay so we have this other

1185
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:15,520
chain uh I propose to start using liquid

1186
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:19,119
because it is compatible with Bitcoin

1187
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:22,280
and it has a lightning demon and I I can

1188
00:59:19,119 --> 00:59:25,480
say okay I have just 10 bucks I want

1189
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:28,880
just to try this lightning Network thing

1190
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:33,039
uh I cannot pay 40 bucks for opening a

1191
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:35,200
channel on chain on on bitcoin chain uh

1192
00:59:33,039 --> 00:59:38,400
but I don't want a fully custodial CH

1193
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:41,119
Channel either so what I can do is I can

1194
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:43,640
open this super small channel for 10

1195
00:59:41,119 --> 00:59:46,799
bucks on

1196
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:49,799
liquid and there is a bridge which no

1197
00:59:46,799 --> 00:59:52,160
one has to trust between the liquid

1198
00:59:49,799 --> 00:59:55,799
Network and the Bitcoin part of the

1199
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:58,640
network so now I can pay any Merchant in

1200
00:59:55,799 --> 01:00:02,799
the lightning network doesn't matter

1201
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:05,839
what uh uh what um uh chain their

1202
01:00:02,799 --> 01:00:09,880
channels are on and I can just use it as

1203
01:00:05,839 --> 01:00:12,760
Lightning it's um it's

1204
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:15,079
basically I I like to compare the

1205
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:19,599
lightning Network to the internet or

1206
01:00:15,079 --> 01:00:21,640
make make an analogy so for example um

1207
01:00:19,599 --> 01:00:25,079
if uh the current lightning Network

1208
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:28,440
backed by Bitcoin is made of fiber optic

1209
01:00:25,079 --> 01:00:31,559
and I connect uh to the network through

1210
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:34,720
a starlink satellite I use a different

1211
01:00:31,559 --> 01:00:37,640
type of connection but I only connect to

1212
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:39,480
the next Noe and the server will still

1213
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:42,880
receive the money through the original

1214
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:45,359
Channel Through the fiber optic cable so

1215
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:48,119
everyone makes connections makes

1216
01:00:45,359 --> 01:00:53,280
channels the way they see fit uh you

1217
01:00:48,119 --> 01:00:56,520
know cheap or uh or secure uh you can

1218
01:00:53,280 --> 01:01:00,880
also do things like okay if the channel

1219
01:00:56,520 --> 01:01:04,319
is up to 500 bucks I will open it on

1220
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:06,760
liquid uh when the value of the channel

1221
01:01:04,319 --> 01:01:09,680
uh becomes more than 500 bucks I will

1222
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:12,480
just send it over to myself and open a

1223
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:14,359
real Bitcoin channel so what is

1224
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:19,079
interesting about this lightning network

1225
01:01:14,359 --> 01:01:22,480
is that uh it uses Bitcoin as a unit of

1226
01:01:19,079 --> 01:01:25,880
account but it doesn't have like all the

1227
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:29,000
channels don't have to be be backed on

1228
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:32,960
chain so this is one of the ways how you

1229
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:36,000
can scale it um another interesting ways

1230
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:40,160
how you can scale it is using these

1231
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:41,880
ecash systems like cashew or fedy Min

1232
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:45,000
which are well integrated with lightning

1233
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:48,200
Network um what is nice about them is

1234
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:50,400
they have full anonymity so very very

1235
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:55,079
good privacy

1236
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:59,400
um or as Phil simmerman would said

1237
01:01:55,079 --> 01:02:01,119
privacy uh so I I think what we will see

1238
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:03,279
and I'm not saying you know this is the

1239
01:02:01,119 --> 01:02:06,000
best solution in the world and it cannot

1240
01:02:03,279 --> 01:02:08,839
be sold in a better way but what I think

1241
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:11,119
we'll see is we will explore these new

1242
01:02:08,839 --> 01:02:13,880
options how to expand the lightning

1243
01:02:11,119 --> 01:02:16,520
Network without necessarily needing to

1244
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:20,079
create uh transactions on chain there's

1245
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:22,720
one more way that I will mention uh how

1246
01:02:20,079 --> 01:02:25,599
you can do it uh it's called Channel

1247
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:29,839
factories and channel Factory is a way

1248
01:02:25,599 --> 01:02:32,520
to open many channels with single uh

1249
01:02:29,839 --> 01:02:35,680
onchain transaction it would be very

1250
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:38,839
expensive to close so you would there's

1251
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:41,720
the the game theory there would be a

1252
01:02:38,839 --> 01:02:44,480
little bit different because you would

1253
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:46,920
um uh like if you if you want to close

1254
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:49,680
the channel to prevent cheating you

1255
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:51,839
would need to pay a load in fees but but

1256
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:56,240
that's another option that you would say

1257
01:02:51,839 --> 01:03:00,960
Okay um you know

1258
01:02:56,240 --> 01:03:04,920
um what's what's the what's the term new

1259
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:08,920
coiners um new Bitcoin users uh coming

1260
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:12,279
to the network uh today they will all

1261
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:14,920
open they will all wait coordinate and

1262
01:03:12,279 --> 01:03:19,039
open one channel and there will be one

1263
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:23,599
onchain transaction for 20th December

1264
01:03:19,039 --> 01:03:26,279
2023 which is when we record this uh so

1265
01:03:23,599 --> 01:03:28,720
this is another way you can you can kind

1266
01:03:26,279 --> 01:03:31,599
of combine all the channels this is not

1267
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:34,760
done um right now but that's that's

1268
01:03:31,599 --> 01:03:41,200
another option so what I see uh coming

1269
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:44,880
over the next um next few uh years is uh

1270
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:46,920
more custodial wallets unfortunately I'm

1271
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:49,359
not saying this is a good solution but

1272
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:50,960
that's what we see people doing using

1273
01:03:49,359 --> 01:03:54,039
things like wallet of

1274
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,920
Satoshi um or Albi or something like

1275
01:03:54,039 --> 01:03:58,079
that

1276
01:03:54,920 --> 01:04:00,640
uh but Al also allows to be self

1277
01:03:58,079 --> 01:04:04,599
custodial but uh in the in the basic

1278
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:08,079
account so custodial Solutions um ecash

1279
01:04:04,599 --> 01:04:11,440
based system such as cash and fedy Min

1280
01:04:08,079 --> 01:04:13,680
um I hope that there will be these side

1281
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:16,240
chains that will grow the lightning

1282
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:19,839
Network it will not be a separate

1283
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:22,440
lightning network uh such such as liquid

1284
01:04:19,839 --> 01:04:23,920
I think this is the easiest thing to do

1285
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,760
because all the building blocks are

1286
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:28,520
already already there there is lightning

1287
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:31,079
on liquid uh there is a way to do the

1288
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:34,480
bridge uh and the only thing you need to

1289
01:04:31,079 --> 01:04:37,279
do is the user facing wallet uh should

1290
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:40,599
support both backends and and there

1291
01:04:37,279 --> 01:04:43,480
should be lightning service providers

1292
01:04:40,599 --> 01:04:47,279
um hopefully there will be Channel

1293
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:52,319
factories and hopefully uh there will be

1294
01:04:47,279 --> 01:04:54,680
uh a less uh fee intensive uh uh

1295
01:04:52,319 --> 01:04:57,640
channels that use St rout and other

1296
01:04:54,680 --> 01:05:00,400
upgrades which still didn't happen so

1297
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:05,520
there are things to make lightning much

1298
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:08,160
better and uh and they will be you know

1299
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:10,359
um the old lightning network will be

1300
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:13,760
priced out and it was supposed to be

1301
01:05:10,359 --> 01:05:17,279
happen so it was supposed to happen so

1302
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:20,200
so we will need to try these new

1303
01:05:17,279 --> 01:05:22,599
Solutions so is lightning as it as it

1304
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:26,079
currently exists is it is it is it

1305
01:05:22,599 --> 01:05:26,079
failing as it currently exists

1306
01:05:27,039 --> 01:05:31,799
uh I don't think so because you have

1307
01:05:29,279 --> 01:05:33,720
options so for example I've been doing

1308
01:05:31,799 --> 01:05:36,680
all my Christmas

1309
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:40,839
shopping uh with lightning uh but I had

1310
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:43,599
my channels open you know for months so

1311
01:05:40,839 --> 01:05:45,799
as I say friends don't close channels to

1312
01:05:43,599 --> 01:05:49,200
each other so so I still have the

1313
01:05:45,799 --> 01:05:51,920
channel and I can use it all the time um

1314
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:54,440
so I don't think it's failing oh one

1315
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:56,680
pretty nice solution is just uh swapping

1316
01:05:54,440 --> 01:06:00,960
from Monero so you can also do that you

1317
01:05:56,680 --> 01:06:04,480
know you can say Okay um I use a service

1318
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:08,039
uh that that can uh pay a lightning

1319
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:09,039
invoice by sending Monero so so that's

1320
01:06:08,039 --> 01:06:11,440
another

1321
01:06:09,039 --> 01:06:15,000
solution um

1322
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:17,000
so I don't think it's failing but it's

1323
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:19,319
definitely not user friendly for new

1324
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:20,799
users right now unless they want to go

1325
01:06:19,319 --> 01:06:23,640
custodial like if people are

1326
01:06:20,799 --> 01:06:26,000
recommending oh use wallet of Satoshi

1327
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:28,920
they will not even notice that there is

1328
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:32,400
a fee problem on on bitcoin right now no

1329
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:35,319
but then they have a bank so yeah right

1330
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:38,319
these these custodial Solutions I mean

1331
01:06:35,319 --> 01:06:41,680
at that point what what is bitcoin right

1332
01:06:38,319 --> 01:06:45,520
what is what is the point of somebody

1333
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:47,799
using Bitcoin after using it in the in

1334
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:50,880
this manner does it

1335
01:06:47,799 --> 01:06:53,680
still have a have a use

1336
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:55,160
case like why why even use Bitcoin at

1337
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:58,559
that point if you're effectively just

1338
01:06:55,160 --> 01:07:01,319
using it in a custodial manner yes I

1339
01:06:58,559 --> 01:07:04,279
would not be completely against

1340
01:07:01,319 --> 01:07:08,240
custodial if there was like a clear

1341
01:07:04,279 --> 01:07:11,039
upgrade PA if if it would say okay you

1342
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:14,119
you played with it you tried it you know

1343
01:07:11,039 --> 01:07:16,880
how to use it but now you have a th000

1344
01:07:14,119 --> 01:07:19,520
bucks so it's time to open your own

1345
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:23,119
channel so please press this button and

1346
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:24,799
you are migrating to non-custodial but

1347
01:07:23,119 --> 01:07:26,680
right now what you have to do is

1348
01:07:24,799 --> 01:07:28,359
essentially install a completely

1349
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:29,920
different wallet and send it out and

1350
01:07:28,359 --> 01:07:32,319
most people will not do because they

1351
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:35,319
don't understand the difference but if

1352
01:07:32,319 --> 01:07:38,160
there was a wallet uh even like Phoenix

1353
01:07:35,319 --> 01:07:41,319
or Breeze if they said okay fees are

1354
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:46,079
high we will not back this sets you

1355
01:07:41,319 --> 01:07:49,960
agree that uh that you trust us up to

1356
01:07:46,079 --> 01:07:52,160
$1,000 and when it's more uh either you

1357
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:54,720
receive more or the value of Bitcoin

1358
01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:57,359
goes up if if it's more or we will open

1359
01:07:54,720 --> 01:08:00,200
a channel and you will pay a fee that

1360
01:07:57,359 --> 01:08:02,720
would be kind of like not a perfect

1361
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:06,039
solution but I would say okay this is a

1362
01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:09,720
way to introduce people uh to bitcoin

1363
01:08:06,039 --> 01:08:13,839
not scare them away and it's something

1364
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:17,199
you can do but uh other otherwise right

1365
01:08:13,839 --> 01:08:21,279
right now it's like uh like a bank and

1366
01:08:17,199 --> 01:08:24,440
an expensive self custo way so right

1367
01:08:21,279 --> 01:08:27,159
right yeah it's just crazy to me know

1368
01:08:24,440 --> 01:08:28,759
that bitcoiners are worried or

1369
01:08:27,159 --> 01:08:31,400
traditionally have been worried

1370
01:08:28,759 --> 01:08:34,640
about people being able to easily run

1371
01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:37,520
run their own node right uh but yet here

1372
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:39,000
we are in a situation where the average

1373
01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:42,679
person

1374
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:45,960
worldwide can't effectively use the

1375
01:08:42,679 --> 01:08:47,679
Bitcoin Network right uh can't on board

1376
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:49,560
we're talking about you know uh this

1377
01:08:47,679 --> 01:08:51,640
there's a lot of people where where you

1378
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:54,679
know perhaps they're making $10 a day

1379
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:57,199
right so so like somebody like that that

1380
01:08:54,679 --> 01:08:59,080
um they never even get to the point

1381
01:08:57,199 --> 01:09:00,839
where they move away from the

1382
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:02,799
non-custodial version because they just

1383
01:09:00,839 --> 01:09:06,600
would never be able to afford it so they

1384
01:09:02,799 --> 01:09:10,480
would just essentially be using

1385
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:11,799
fzed Bitcoin right and at that point

1386
01:09:10,480 --> 01:09:15,279
have have we

1387
01:09:11,799 --> 01:09:18,080
really solved the original problem that

1388
01:09:15,279 --> 01:09:22,719
that Satoshi set out to

1389
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:24,560
solve yeah yeah it's a problem I agree

1390
01:09:22,719 --> 01:09:27,359
yeah

1391
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:30,199
so I guess uh so so given what what we

1392
01:09:27,359 --> 01:09:33,120
spoke about so far right with uh the

1393
01:09:30,199 --> 01:09:35,520
these uh censorship issues in the mining

1394
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:38,600
Network and the state of of the

1395
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:42,480
lightning network uh fees being super

1396
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:46,080
high on bitcoin what do you currently

1397
01:09:42,480 --> 01:09:47,799
see Bitcoin as being what is the what is

1398
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:50,600
the value proposition of Bitcoin

1399
01:09:47,799 --> 01:09:54,920
becoming do you still see it being

1400
01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:57,960
adopted globally as a mean for

1401
01:09:54,920 --> 01:10:00,239
transacting as as a digital cach or

1402
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:02,480
ultimately does it become something else

1403
01:10:00,239 --> 01:10:08,159
and something like a Monero or whatever

1404
01:10:02,480 --> 01:10:11,640
it is provides the use case of digital

1405
01:10:08,159 --> 01:10:18,560
cache I don't know as you know I like

1406
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:22,120
Monero uh so I I I'm glad that we have

1407
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:25,239
another option and uh and we can we can

1408
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:29,080
use it on the other hand

1409
01:10:25,239 --> 01:10:33,960
uh mono is 100 times smaller than

1410
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:36,760
Bitcoin so uh if I if I look like uh

1411
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:39,360
what is the chance of of you know

1412
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:42,840
something like Monero becoming like a

1413
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:46,560
widely adopted means of payment I'm not

1414
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:49,360
even talking about uh um s of value but

1415
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:50,199
let let's say cash uh and payments and

1416
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:51,840
payment

1417
01:10:50,199 --> 01:10:58,520
Network

1418
01:10:51,840 --> 01:11:01,840
um I I think think uh we are um uh we

1419
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:05,520
are better off uh trying to solve the

1420
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:09,360
situation on bitcoin as well because

1421
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:11,920
like if you talk to a random person on a

1422
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:16,920
street they will they probably have

1423
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:19,960
never heard of uh of cryptocurrencies if

1424
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:21,679
they Pro or maybe they have like from

1425
01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:24,280
from news but they don't follow like

1426
01:11:21,679 --> 01:11:26,679
they they don't understand what it

1427
01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:29,600
M they have heard about something they

1428
01:11:26,679 --> 01:11:32,440
have probably heard about Bitcoin they

1429
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:37,199
have never in their life heard the word

1430
01:11:32,440 --> 01:11:39,120
mono and uh again uh for me until

1431
01:11:37,199 --> 01:11:41,120
Senator Warren starts talking about it

1432
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:44,000
we need

1433
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:46,760
to for that sh down effect to kick in

1434
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:48,600
yes she she she will not get the word

1435
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:52,800
right she will call call it something

1436
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:54,239
else a friend's uh a friend's wife uh

1437
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:59,040
who is a

1438
01:11:54,239 --> 01:11:59,040
Taiwanese Chinese calls it

1439
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:07,800
Manolo so anyway so um again I'm a

1440
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:11,320
cipher punk I like that something like

1441
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:15,320
Monero exists I have people who I use it

1442
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:18,760
with uh the same way I was using pgp to

1443
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:22,440
send encrypted emails to my few weirdo

1444
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:24,560
friends and uh and it worked but if I

1445
01:12:22,440 --> 01:12:27,880
wanted to you know

1446
01:12:24,560 --> 01:12:30,040
write an email to a hotel and it came

1447
01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:31,719
pgp signed and encrypted they would

1448
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:37,120
probably think it's a

1449
01:12:31,719 --> 01:12:40,480
virus so so I don't think that um that

1450
01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:43,520
Monero will have a global adoption but I

1451
01:12:40,480 --> 01:12:47,120
also think it doesn't have to like I I

1452
01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:49,280
think that the state like if nothing

1453
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:52,080
happened in Monero if it stayed exactly

1454
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:54,639
like it is no more services like we

1455
01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:56,760
would just be you know using it among a

1456
01:12:54,639 --> 01:13:01,040
few people it would be used on dark

1457
01:12:56,760 --> 01:13:03,120
markets and you know few stores that

1458
01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:06,679
that like it and there would be proxy

1459
01:13:03,120 --> 01:13:10,320
Merchants which there are already in in

1460
01:13:06,679 --> 01:13:14,639
many places I still consider Monero

1461
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:17,199
being a success uh for like more mass

1462
01:13:14,639 --> 01:13:20,760
onboarding I think we're still better

1463
01:13:17,199 --> 01:13:22,639
off with Bitcoin because they have like

1464
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:25,440
people have at least something in their

1465
01:13:22,639 --> 01:13:28,280
mind okay I don't know what Bitcoin is

1466
01:13:25,440 --> 01:13:30,719
but I've heard you know my crazy cousin

1467
01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:33,840
talk about it or something like that so

1468
01:13:30,719 --> 01:13:37,120
so there's something to kind kind of uh

1469
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:41,560
hold to and expand the knowledge so I

1470
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:46,239
think Bitcoin is uh our best chance of

1471
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:50,239
onboarding people to better money and uh

1472
01:13:46,239 --> 01:13:53,800
better uh like hard money more private

1473
01:13:50,239 --> 01:13:56,880
payment system and so on so I think it's

1474
01:13:53,800 --> 01:14:00,040
the alternative I I don't think like I'm

1475
01:13:56,880 --> 01:14:01,920
not a maximalist or anything but if I

1476
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:04,719
talk to a complete

1477
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:06,960
nocoiner I will talk about Bitcoin I

1478
01:14:04,719 --> 01:14:09,840
will not even bother them with you know

1479
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:12,199
there are many coins if they ask okay so

1480
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:17,520
what do you like I will mention Monero

1481
01:14:12,199 --> 01:14:21,120
because of my values and I um I like the

1482
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:24,600
the community uh I like the the values I

1483
01:14:21,120 --> 01:14:27,880
like The Cypher Punk and or even lunar

1484
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:30,480
Punk EOS so there are many things to

1485
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:34,080
admire many ways how you can use moner

1486
01:14:30,480 --> 01:14:37,400
right now uh but for complete no coiners

1487
01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:39,320
I would just tell them okay there is

1488
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:42,719
this thing called Bitcoin you need to

1489
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:45,239
hold your own Keys it's the alternative

1490
01:14:42,719 --> 01:14:47,080
Fiat is failing and you know save

1491
01:14:45,239 --> 01:14:54,360
yourself and get

1492
01:14:47,080 --> 01:14:59,159
some um so uh yeah I as you uh

1493
01:14:54,360 --> 01:15:02,080
like um after after the uh it's a maybe

1494
01:14:59,159 --> 01:15:04,800
not the not the best metaphor but uh

1495
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:08,360
when um uh when

1496
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:11,600
the um when the US froze the assets of

1497
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:15,239
the Russian Central Bank uh many

1498
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:17,679
countries uh who are who hold US dollar

1499
01:15:15,239 --> 01:15:20,880
reserves they were like oh okay what is

1500
01:15:17,679 --> 01:15:24,000
happening you know China okay you can

1501
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:26,000
just freeze our money uh it's it's kind

1502
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:30,360
of a problem and they started thinking

1503
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:33,080
okay so this is a problem we need to uh

1504
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:35,360
kind of if not replace but start using

1505
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:38,360
something else as a global Reserve

1506
01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:41,080
currency but what is the problem there

1507
01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:43,320
is nothing else in the Fiat world that

1508
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:46,560
is as good as US dollar and the US

1509
01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:50,239
dollar is not that good but Euro and

1510
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:53,280
Yuan or reny B and Yen

1511
01:15:50,239 --> 01:15:58,679
and all all these coins they're just

1512
01:15:53,280 --> 01:16:02,280
just 10 times worse you know so so yes

1513
01:15:58,679 --> 01:16:05,560
there is a problem with USD you know uh

1514
01:16:02,280 --> 01:16:08,560
I not only me as a person but even

1515
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:11,679
States realize okay my account can be

1516
01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:15,520
just Frozen and I'm taking a huge risk

1517
01:16:11,679 --> 01:16:17,639
with this USD thing but I don't have any

1518
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:20,480
realistic options so with Bitcoin I

1519
01:16:17,639 --> 01:16:23,159
think it's the same I I I say okay

1520
01:16:20,480 --> 01:16:25,800
Bitcoin has high fee problems there are

1521
01:16:23,159 --> 01:16:30,120
any problems with privacy and so

1522
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:33,400
on but it's the best thing uh the best

1523
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:36,880
parallel Financial system best options

1524
01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:39,120
that we have right now unless you are a

1525
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:42,480
Cypher Punk and geek and like to

1526
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:44,719
synchronize your wallets and play with

1527
01:16:42,480 --> 01:16:47,520
play with these Technologies or unless

1528
01:16:44,719 --> 01:16:50,480
you are buying or dealing drugs on dark

1529
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:53,800
markets and all these other uh

1530
01:16:50,480 --> 01:16:57,080
interesting things but the difference is

1531
01:16:53,800 --> 01:17:00,440
the the um other options do like Monero

1532
01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:02,760
does exist as another option and and

1533
01:17:00,440 --> 01:17:06,239
it's getting to the point where it's

1534
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:09,360
it's easy it's easier to use Monero than

1535
01:17:06,239 --> 01:17:11,440
Bitcoin if you're using it for digital

1536
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:15,000
cash right if you're using it for

1537
01:17:11,440 --> 01:17:18,760
spending um and built into it is

1538
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:22,520
privacy uh transactions are super cheap

1539
01:17:18,760 --> 01:17:26,320
so I I don't know people to start to to

1540
01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:28,600
use these things that's when the

1541
01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:32,040
realization will

1542
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:34,600
happen yes and no uh the thing is that

1543
01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:37,120
people are not using it that much so I

1544
01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:41,520
said I was doing a lot of my Christmas

1545
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:44,520
shopping uh and you know the biggest

1546
01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:47,159
local Amazon like service which is

1547
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:49,120
called alza takes lightning takes

1548
01:17:47,159 --> 01:17:53,320
Bitcoin takes Litecoin doesn't take

1549
01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:56,040
Monero uh there's a um in prag uh I

1550
01:17:53,320 --> 01:18:00,760
don't know if it was when you attended

1551
01:17:56,040 --> 01:18:03,360
Monero con uh already but there's a uh

1552
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:06,760
there's a service called

1553
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:09,679
quero like from the QR code uh which is

1554
01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:12,320
a way to for restaurants to offer

1555
01:18:09,679 --> 01:18:15,320
ordering and paying for food so so you

1556
01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:17,400
see you can a QR code at the table you

1557
01:18:15,320 --> 01:18:19,360
order and you can pay directly there and

1558
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:24,199
you can pay with lightning but not

1559
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:26,920
Monero so so yes Technic Al you know

1560
01:18:24,199 --> 01:18:29,280
wallets are super user friendly but the

1561
01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:31,920
ATM will not sell you Monero the

1562
01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:34,600
merchant will not take it so so I think

1563
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:37,040
the network effect is a huge part of the

1564
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:39,000
user experience and that is not there on

1565
01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:41,719
the other hand on the dark markets they

1566
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:44,120
will not take Bitcoin right now I have

1567
01:18:41,719 --> 01:18:48,840
read that some dark Market I don't know

1568
01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:51,880
I I not used dark market for a very long

1569
01:18:48,840 --> 01:18:54,639
time but I've read that some are

1570
01:18:51,880 --> 01:18:58,679
delisting Bitcoin not from for privacy

1571
01:18:54,639 --> 01:19:00,520
reasons but for fear reasons uh so so

1572
01:18:58,679 --> 01:19:02,600
that that is happening but I I think

1573
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:05,520
that infrastructure like the acceptance

1574
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:08,560
and the network effects uh are a huge

1575
01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:11,360
part uh of the user experience but even

1576
01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:16,040
this can be improved so uh recently a

1577
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:18,639
few days ago cake wallet was uh asking

1578
01:19:16,040 --> 01:19:21,639
uh what should they do to improve the

1579
01:19:18,639 --> 01:19:24,159
user experience uh and I told them I

1580
01:19:21,639 --> 01:19:26,719
have it in my book you know I have a I

1581
01:19:24,159 --> 01:19:29,960
have a chapter in cryptocurrencies heck

1582
01:19:26,719 --> 01:19:32,920
your way to a better life about my

1583
01:19:29,960 --> 01:19:35,560
vision for a very good

1584
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:37,719
wallet and one of the things I would

1585
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:43,800
like to see in every Wallet not only in

1586
01:19:37,719 --> 01:19:47,199
cake is I scan a QR code any QR code and

1587
01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:49,960
they will make uh the payment happen so

1588
01:19:47,199 --> 01:19:52,560
if I scan a lightning QR code with cake

1589
01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:55,120
wallet I want to pay it you know they

1590
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:57,639
can swap it on the background I don't I

1591
01:19:55,120 --> 01:19:59,480
don't care you know preferably it would

1592
01:19:57,639 --> 01:20:02,199
work even with Fiat you know in many

1593
01:19:59,480 --> 01:20:05,199
countries you have all these you know

1594
01:20:02,199 --> 01:20:06,960
Ved or or different kinds of like I was

1595
01:20:05,199 --> 01:20:09,760
in Thailand recently they have like

1596
01:20:06,960 --> 01:20:13,280
their local network I just want to scan

1597
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:16,040
the QR code and click send you know and

1598
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:19,520
if if you know it sends a Monero

1599
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:22,120
transaction and it's you know um swapped

1600
01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:23,560
in the background or whatever I don't

1601
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:27,239
care that would be a great user

1602
01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:31,679
experience and and then you know okay I

1603
01:20:27,239 --> 01:20:35,320
suddenly got uh access to the whole uh

1604
01:20:31,679 --> 01:20:37,239
network of um of merchants that accept

1605
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:39,760
whatever whatever they coin you know I

1606
01:20:37,239 --> 01:20:43,600
don't I don't care about their religion

1607
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:47,760
if they want you know pink shells or

1608
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:50,560
whatever Argentinian Pesos or whatever I

1609
01:20:47,760 --> 01:20:52,480
don't care you know I I'm at the counter

1610
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:54,760
I ordered coffee and I want to pay it

1611
01:20:52,480 --> 01:20:56,920
you know and I have this wallet and the

1612
01:20:54,760 --> 01:21:00,280
first wallet that allows me to do this

1613
01:20:56,920 --> 01:21:03,760
uh is going to have a have a I think a

1614
01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:06,400
huge traction and and literally the best

1615
01:21:03,760 --> 01:21:07,639
user experience so at this point I don't

1616
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:09,360
don't think it's that much about

1617
01:21:07,639 --> 01:21:12,000
technology and by the way credit cards

1618
01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:14,440
do this you know you you you went to

1619
01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:17,320
Czech Republic probably you take a

1620
01:21:14,440 --> 01:21:21,239
credit card you tap it somewhere and

1621
01:21:17,320 --> 01:21:23,920
whatever US dollars to check grounds yep

1622
01:21:21,239 --> 01:21:27,040
yep yeah I mean

1623
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:29,920
um would be amazing to see cake to see

1624
01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:32,639
cake come out something like that that

1625
01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:34,400
that's a great Point uh they just they

1626
01:21:32,639 --> 01:21:37,880
just added I don't know if you saw They

1627
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:40,239
just added uh an exchange uh DFX so

1628
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:44,719
there's now you can buy Monero

1629
01:21:40,239 --> 01:21:47,719
essentially in Europe kyc free with with

1630
01:21:44,719 --> 01:21:49,600
Fiat um I wasn't even familiar with this

1631
01:21:47,719 --> 01:21:53,600
D do you know DFX

1632
01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:56,520
Swiss no I don't your seamless Gateway

1633
01:21:53,600 --> 01:21:59,400
between Fiat and Bitcoin or crypto so

1634
01:21:56,520 --> 01:22:01,280
that's it's it's a it's not animos

1635
01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:04,400
payment probably because the Fiat

1636
01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:07,159
network will provide them with your name

1637
01:22:04,400 --> 01:22:09,280
and something but it's you don't you

1638
01:22:07,159 --> 01:22:13,560
don't have to dance with the passport

1639
01:22:09,280 --> 01:22:16,360
and everything so that's that's

1640
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:18,800
nice um yeah I think I think they were

1641
01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:21,679
saying though it's it's kyc free up to

1642
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:24,800
$1,000 or something but yes that

1643
01:22:21,679 --> 01:22:27,600
probably means they don't do kyc but the

1644
01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:29,320
credit card payment or Apple pay or what

1645
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:32,360
Google pay that is happening on the

1646
01:22:29,320 --> 01:22:34,840
background right will right we we'll

1647
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:37,600
give them uh your identity I'm I'm a

1648
01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:40,719
merchant uh as well I also accept credit

1649
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:43,520
cards for for my book and I see it you

1650
01:22:40,719 --> 01:22:45,520
know everyone is super Anonymous they

1651
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:48,199
send it to you know a fake name or

1652
01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:51,280
something and then I look at the account

1653
01:22:48,199 --> 01:22:53,239
movements in my Company accounting and I

1654
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:56,600
and I see everything so

1655
01:22:53,239 --> 01:22:59,199
right yeah but but but it's very user

1656
01:22:56,600 --> 01:23:01,920
friendly if you don't have you know to

1657
01:22:59,199 --> 01:23:04,760
take a selfie with a passport and send

1658
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:08,639
it to them so definitely an improvement

1659
01:23:04,760 --> 01:23:10,760
yeah so so is amazing I I I like what

1660
01:23:08,639 --> 01:23:12,880
they're doing okay

1661
01:23:10,760 --> 01:23:14,800
yeah they and they they they keep

1662
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:18,480
iterating they keep improving they keep

1663
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:23,639
adding features uh Vic doesn't stop you

1664
01:23:18,480 --> 01:23:26,080
know I love that um so just kind kind of

1665
01:23:23,639 --> 01:23:30,320
back to the question so so you do see

1666
01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:34,239
Bitcoin then still maintaining its value

1667
01:23:30,320 --> 01:23:38,920
proposition as a as a digital cache

1668
01:23:34,239 --> 01:23:43,639
Network just perhaps not as originally

1669
01:23:38,920 --> 01:23:47,120
envisioned um so yes lightning was not

1670
01:23:43,639 --> 01:23:50,639
originally envisioned either so yes even

1671
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:52,960
if it's people using custodial custodial

1672
01:23:50,639 --> 01:23:56,040
lightning um you see that that that

1673
01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:59,040
gaining traction and being globally

1674
01:23:56,040 --> 01:24:01,679
adopted and people are using Bitcoin in

1675
01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:05,679
that fashion to make transactions

1676
01:24:01,679 --> 01:24:09,320
daily I think so and I would not be too

1677
01:24:05,679 --> 01:24:11,520
opposed if I can make a choice even if I

1678
01:24:09,320 --> 01:24:14,800
have to pay for it you know if I can say

1679
01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:17,440
okay you do your custodial thing but if

1680
01:24:14,800 --> 01:24:21,000
you pay me I wanton real Bitcoin I don't

1681
01:24:17,440 --> 01:24:22,920
want you know a ledger entry with wallet

1682
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:26,120
of Satoshi uh

1683
01:24:22,920 --> 01:24:30,080
if if it's interoperable in such a way

1684
01:24:26,120 --> 01:24:34,600
that I can decide for myself um I would

1685
01:24:30,080 --> 01:24:38,199
say um it's still like if you

1686
01:24:34,600 --> 01:24:41,800
can pay uh to be self- custodial it

1687
01:24:38,199 --> 01:24:46,520
doesn't have to be free then uh then I

1688
01:24:41,800 --> 01:24:50,480
think uh I think it's still kind of yeah

1689
01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:54,199
I think it's still uh holding to the or

1690
01:24:50,480 --> 01:24:56,760
uh fulfilling the original value

1691
01:24:54,199 --> 01:24:59,840
proposition now now the the the crypto

1692
01:24:56,760 --> 01:25:02,880
Anarchist in you which is all of you I

1693
01:24:59,840 --> 01:25:05,080
would say from what I gather of you um

1694
01:25:02,880 --> 01:25:08,560
do you do you potentially take issue

1695
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:11,040
with it I mean do you see it as not

1696
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:14,400
fulfilling that aspect of its value

1697
01:25:11,040 --> 01:25:16,360
proposition or does it still function as

1698
01:25:14,400 --> 01:25:19,199
you know [ __ ] you money that the state

1699
01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:20,520
can't control surveil or censor right

1700
01:25:19,199 --> 01:25:22,360
because ultimately if you get to the

1701
01:25:20,520 --> 01:25:25,040
point where yes the whole world is using

1702
01:25:22,360 --> 01:25:27,040
Bitcoin but they're using it in a manner

1703
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:31,400
that's essentially

1704
01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:33,520
fzed um are do we do we need to should

1705
01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:35,520
we then be fighting for something like a

1706
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:38,000
Monero to be globally adopted I know

1707
01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:41,440
you're saying you don't likely see that

1708
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:43,960
happening it might be more Niche but the

1709
01:25:41,440 --> 01:25:46,400
crypto Anarchist in you wouldn't you

1710
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:47,719
want to fight to see adoption of that

1711
01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:49,920
just like you did in the early days of

1712
01:25:47,719 --> 01:25:51,760
Bitcoin right when Bitcoin was nothing

1713
01:25:49,920 --> 01:25:54,440
and we we had the dollar and the dollar

1714
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:56,159
was was worth working quote unquote fine

1715
01:25:54,440 --> 01:25:58,400
why did we need to go out of our way to

1716
01:25:56,159 --> 01:26:00,560
to to get the world to try to adopt

1717
01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:03,679
Bitcoin because the V Vision was once

1718
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:06,239
once it happened it would be this thing

1719
01:26:03,679 --> 01:26:08,840
that's detached from the state it would

1720
01:26:06,239 --> 01:26:09,960
slowly reduce the power of the state

1721
01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:13,360
over

1722
01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:15,280
time is that a is that a problem with

1723
01:26:13,360 --> 01:26:17,080
Bitcoin does that aspect of Bitcoin

1724
01:26:15,280 --> 01:26:23,040
start to fall

1725
01:26:17,080 --> 01:26:25,440
apart I think uh even uh even if the for

1726
01:26:23,040 --> 01:26:30,639
majority of people it would become this

1727
01:26:25,440 --> 01:26:34,040
kind of fzed custodial thing uh I'm not

1728
01:26:30,639 --> 01:26:37,600
that interested in the majority so uh

1729
01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:39,840
crypto Anarchy is not a not a like a

1730
01:26:37,600 --> 01:26:42,760
philosophy that should be adopted by

1731
01:26:39,840 --> 01:26:46,440
everyone it says okay if you want to opt

1732
01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:50,880
out if you want to live in a certain way

1733
01:26:46,440 --> 01:26:52,800
you have the technology yes nice t-shirt

1734
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:56,040
um if you have the

1735
01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:58,760
technological options to to do that then

1736
01:26:56,040 --> 01:27:02,239
it's okay you know it's not a it's not a

1737
01:26:58,760 --> 01:27:03,800
strategy such as uh I would say anarch

1738
01:27:02,239 --> 01:27:09,280
capitalism or

1739
01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:12,159
agorism um to kind of uh create this uh

1740
01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:15,520
uh this worldwide Revolution for

1741
01:27:12,159 --> 01:27:18,920
everyone I think if it gives me the

1742
01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:22,440
option to use it the way I want uh and

1743
01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:25,119
this option includes sufficient enough

1744
01:27:22,440 --> 01:27:27,880
Network then I'm okay with it so as I

1745
01:27:25,119 --> 01:27:31,639
said even if Monero didn't change the

1746
01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:34,679
bit if there was not any like if there

1747
01:27:31,639 --> 01:27:36,639
were no new Merchants coming into Monero

1748
01:27:34,679 --> 01:27:39,040
that the development would just stop

1749
01:27:36,639 --> 01:27:41,280
everyone would chill out and just the

1750
01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:44,320
miners would mine blocks and it will

1751
01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:47,239
operate uh as it currently does I think

1752
01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:50,400
it is a useful tool for a crypto

1753
01:27:47,239 --> 01:27:53,040
Anarchist I think the same about Bitcoin

1754
01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:56,000
I'm like everyone is is awaiting you

1755
01:27:53,040 --> 01:27:59,320
know people are coming because of the

1756
01:27:56,000 --> 01:28:02,440
ETFs and you know there will be Bitcoin

1757
01:27:59,320 --> 01:28:04,920
will be worth 10x and so on I say if

1758
01:28:02,440 --> 01:28:08,920
nothing happened if like Bitcoin stayed

1759
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:12,600
the same as it is right now I think it

1760
01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:16,520
is already a super useful tool for uh

1761
01:28:12,600 --> 01:28:18,639
increasing your Liberty and having a way

1762
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:21,360
out of the of the Fiat system of the

1763
01:28:18,639 --> 01:28:24,040
dollar system so it's up to people you

1764
01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:27,480
know if the people want to use it the

1765
01:28:24,040 --> 01:28:30,639
way they use Fiat and if they don't

1766
01:28:27,480 --> 01:28:34,400
value the self custodial and hard money

1767
01:28:30,639 --> 01:28:37,040
properties and and privacy properties

1768
01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:39,119
let's say uh then it's their choice I

1769
01:28:37,040 --> 01:28:43,560
don't want to force anyone to do

1770
01:28:39,119 --> 01:28:46,639
anything so so you know I'm not like

1771
01:28:43,560 --> 01:28:48,719
many bitcoiners are part of the you know

1772
01:28:46,639 --> 01:28:52,119
worldwide Revolution and

1773
01:28:48,719 --> 01:28:55,600
hyperbitcoinization and all these things

1774
01:28:52,119 --> 01:28:59,840
I think that's not necessary I I think

1775
01:28:55,600 --> 01:29:02,840
if it's useful for us uh and if people

1776
01:28:59,840 --> 01:29:06,880
who uh it might be useful for if they

1777
01:29:02,840 --> 01:29:12,360
can come in one way or another uh then

1778
01:29:06,880 --> 01:29:16,719
then it's okay I wouldn't I wouldn't be

1779
01:29:12,360 --> 01:29:18,199
worried all right you're right mat thank

1780
01:29:16,719 --> 01:29:19,520
you so go ahead go ahead you had

1781
01:29:18,199 --> 01:29:23,800
something else to

1782
01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:28,360
say just it's just that uh it's a like

1783
01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:30,840
many people when they hear the the word

1784
01:29:28,360 --> 01:29:34,080
or phrase Crypton Archies they think

1785
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:36,119
it's uh it's it's negative you know you

1786
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:38,679
need to hide the encryption and

1787
01:29:36,119 --> 01:29:41,320
everything and the Anarchy of course is

1788
01:29:38,679 --> 01:29:43,320
very dangerous and so on and I see it

1789
01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:46,199
the opposite way it's a it's a very

1790
01:29:43,320 --> 01:29:48,920
positive thing that you have the option

1791
01:29:46,199 --> 01:29:52,320
of living your life the way you want

1792
01:29:48,920 --> 01:29:55,639
peaceful and it's peaceful exactly leave

1793
01:29:52,320 --> 01:29:57,840
me alone just leave me alone yeah yeah

1794
01:29:55,639 --> 01:29:59,880
and you have to and you don't have to

1795
01:29:57,840 --> 01:30:03,119
convince everyone and and frankly it's

1796
01:29:59,880 --> 01:30:06,480
not for everyone so do you do you think

1797
01:30:03,119 --> 01:30:10,360
you know do you think it's it's futile

1798
01:30:06,480 --> 01:30:12,360
or or um a waste of energy to like

1799
01:30:10,360 --> 01:30:15,480
obviously I think I believe we should

1800
01:30:12,360 --> 01:30:18,239
try to to grow the Monero ecosystem as

1801
01:30:15,480 --> 01:30:21,560
much as possible because it just it it

1802
01:30:18,239 --> 01:30:26,320
then brings more value to to the tool

1803
01:30:21,560 --> 01:30:30,080
right so uh yeah you could opt out today

1804
01:30:26,320 --> 01:30:32,320
but opting out becomes even better for

1805
01:30:30,080 --> 01:30:34,800
me and for everybody else that has

1806
01:30:32,320 --> 01:30:36,000
already opt out if more people join that

1807
01:30:34,800 --> 01:30:39,639
join that

1808
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:42,320
camp right yes I agree but that doesn't

1809
01:30:39,639 --> 01:30:45,880
mean I go to you know walk go into the

1810
01:30:42,320 --> 01:30:48,520
City and go into a marijuana shop and

1811
01:30:45,880 --> 01:30:51,560
buy my marijuana with with the Monero

1812
01:30:48,520 --> 01:30:53,880
transaction directly that's fantastic if

1813
01:30:51,560 --> 01:30:56,280
I could could go and buy my dinner with

1814
01:30:53,880 --> 01:30:59,000
the Monero transaction directly um you

1815
01:30:56,280 --> 01:31:02,000
know all all those things now

1816
01:30:59,000 --> 01:31:03,520
improve my you know my my freedom and

1817
01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:06,880
liberty Index

1818
01:31:03,520 --> 01:31:10,040
right exactly it's just uh I don't

1819
01:31:06,880 --> 01:31:13,679
believe in kind of pushing people into

1820
01:31:10,040 --> 01:31:16,960
it you know so I so the my strategy is

1821
01:31:13,679 --> 01:31:20,199
yes I want to help well I wrote wrote a

1822
01:31:16,960 --> 01:31:23,040
book about about cryptocurrencies so I'm

1823
01:31:20,199 --> 01:31:24,679
trying to improve adoption but doing

1824
01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:29,000
your part don't give it yeah of course

1825
01:31:24,679 --> 01:31:32,360
you are but people have to you know get

1826
01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:35,159
the book and uh invest time into reading

1827
01:31:32,360 --> 01:31:37,679
it so it's not that I would be like you

1828
01:31:35,159 --> 01:31:39,800
know running around and you know

1829
01:31:37,679 --> 01:31:42,000
grabbing grandma from the street and

1830
01:31:39,800 --> 01:31:44,920
telling a you need to buy Bitcoin now

1831
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:47,520
you know world is going to [ __ ] even

1832
01:31:44,920 --> 01:31:50,360
though I think it's going like I've read

1833
01:31:47,520 --> 01:31:54,239
a an interesting book called uh enjoy

1834
01:31:50,360 --> 01:31:56,800
the decline about about how the economy

1835
01:31:54,239 --> 01:31:59,960
is going to [ __ ] and how to enjoy it

1836
01:31:56,800 --> 01:32:04,840
and it I I just finished fantastic funny

1837
01:31:59,960 --> 01:32:08,840
book uh but U yes so so my strategy is

1838
01:32:04,840 --> 01:32:12,960
not onboard everyone uh but on board on

1839
01:32:08,840 --> 01:32:15,280
board anyone who is interested that's uh

1840
01:32:12,960 --> 01:32:18,040
that's my

1841
01:32:15,280 --> 01:32:20,080
strategy all right man we will uh we

1842
01:32:18,040 --> 01:32:21,239
will leave it at that thank you so much

1843
01:32:20,080 --> 01:32:23,560
thanks for jumping on thank you so much

1844
01:32:21,239 --> 01:32:26,320
for having again it's good to talk to

1845
01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:27,960
you again I hope uh I don't know if

1846
01:32:26,320 --> 01:32:31,360
there's a way but we're looking to have

1847
01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:34,480
monot toia in Buenos Aus approximately a

1848
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:37,000
year from now would be amazing to have

1849
01:32:34,480 --> 01:32:41,360
you down there I don't know if we'll see

1850
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:45,000
what will happen to and Argentina in a

1851
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:48,480
year it's it's pretty wild there myav

1852
01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:51,199
was just there and he he just flew from

1853
01:32:48,480 --> 01:32:53,199
from buen oires so looking forward I

1854
01:32:51,199 --> 01:32:56,600
never been to Argentina and I always

1855
01:32:53,199 --> 01:33:00,639
wanted to and if that means even going

1856
01:32:56,600 --> 01:33:03,119
to monotop that's another another plus

1857
01:33:00,639 --> 01:33:06,280
point so I would definitely try to make

1858
01:33:03,119 --> 01:33:08,000
it happen awesome man yeah we have uh I

1859
01:33:06,280 --> 01:33:09,679
think Pav's gonna be jumping on Monero

1860
01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:10,800
Topia this weekend I'm gonna be I'm

1861
01:33:09,679 --> 01:33:14,480
gonna

1862
01:33:10,800 --> 01:33:17,520
be yeah yeah yeah Co all right buddy we

1863
01:33:14,480 --> 01:33:20,600
will uh we will be in touch happy happy

1864
01:33:17,520 --> 01:33:23,960
holidays and enjoy the family time Merry

1865
01:33:20,600 --> 01:33:27,560
Christmas see Christmas tree up there um

1866
01:33:23,960 --> 01:33:30,040
enjoy I generated it in my mono

1867
01:33:27,560 --> 01:33:32,040
spaceship yes I figured I figur that

1868
01:33:30,040 --> 01:33:36,080
that was not a not a real one I I love

1869
01:33:32,040 --> 01:33:40,880
youro I I completely merged up I have a

1870
01:33:36,080 --> 01:33:44,480
monotop cap I have a mono t-shirt

1871
01:33:40,880 --> 01:33:47,040
and and the background so I'm

1872
01:33:44,480 --> 01:33:49,480
ready traveling through space and time

1873
01:33:47,040 --> 01:33:52,400
in your Monero spaceship yes you're

1874
01:33:49,480 --> 01:33:54,280
right thank you so much man as I I I

1875
01:33:52,400 --> 01:33:56,600
always greatly enjoy these conversations

1876
01:33:54,280 --> 01:33:59,520
I appreciate it thank you yeah me too

1877
01:33:56,600 --> 01:34:01,639
byebye all right cheers thank you for

1878
01:33:59,520 --> 01:34:03,960
joining us on this week's episode we

1879
01:34:01,639 --> 01:34:05,639
release new episodes every week you can

1880
01:34:03,960 --> 01:34:09,280
find And subscribe to our show on

1881
01:34:05,639 --> 01:34:11,679
YouTube Odyssey iTunes Spotify Stitcher

1882
01:34:09,280 --> 01:34:13,600
or wherever you listen to podcasts go to

1883
01:34:11,679 --> 01:34:15,360
Monero talk. live to subscribe for a

1884
01:34:13,600 --> 01:34:17,760
full list of places where you can watch

1885
01:34:15,360 --> 01:34:20,480
and listen if you want to interact with

1886
01:34:17,760 --> 01:34:22,239
us guests or other podcast listeners you

1887
01:34:20,480 --> 01:34:24,400
can follow us on Twitter

1888
01:34:22,239 --> 01:34:26,280
and please leave us a review on iTunes

1889
01:34:24,400 --> 01:34:28,560
it helps people find the show and we are

1890
01:34:26,280 --> 01:34:30,560
always happy to read them so thanks so

1891
01:34:28,560 --> 01:34:32,840
much and we look forward to being back

1892
01:34:30,560 --> 01:34:32,840
next

1893
01:34:33,860 --> 01:34:37,020
[Music]

1894
01:34:39,960 --> 01:34:42,960
week