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all right Nate we actually ended the

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talk and then we're having some back

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room talk and I realized I never asked

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you directly what is your Monero price

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prediction for 2024 yeah so I think it

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depends on the effect of the D listings

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if the D listings happen and there's

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nobody else that's selling paper shares

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of XMR then I think we see maybe like

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six 100 from speculation just a guess um

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if we don't and somebody you know some

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exchange still keeps XMR around and is

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selling shares that don't exist or coins

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that don't exist that no one withdraws

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then something like 250 just based on

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actual adoption because BTC fees are

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already through the roof this year XMR

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is the front runner to get that that

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volume and so we know that Kraken is

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really the only large C calized exchange

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that's remaining right after after

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binance right I mean I'm sure there's

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some other relatively large ones but I

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would have to Kraken is

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the so it comes down to will Kraken be

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be a paper Monera right and it doesn't

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seem like they will be from what we know

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of Kraken and the founders of Kraken and

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right yeah I mean they've they've only

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been kraken's only been a good

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experience for me personally using it

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and also I think they're very aligned

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you know they're founder is very aligned

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with crypto values so I'd be surprised

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if they were selling paper shares but um

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but we'll see we'll see yeah I mean I

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don't know what the Asian market looks

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like either who knows um what what kind

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of K coin clones pop up to uh serve

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serve the community and whether or not

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paper Monero is gonna still be prevalent

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you think initially there'll be some

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volatility where we see a decline as as

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people perhaps get scared and

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then yeah I think I think we're going to

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see a significant drop I don't think

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it'll be 50% but I think there will be a

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drop in Monero price um following D

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listings 50% oh man well I'll I'll be

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holding guys you can count you count on

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me I'm not going anywhere yeah I think I

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think it'll be significant maybe not 50%

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but but it'll be substantial we'll see

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we'll see I think it'll bounce pretty

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hard if it

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does Nate man thank you again and thanks

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for jumping on and uh answering the the

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2024 question appreciate it Douglas it's

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been a pleasure man thank

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you Monero talk is sponsored by Cake

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to create an account or register and

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with no limits making stealthy x a

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simple way to purchase Monero with

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crypto

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anonymously Monero talk is also made

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wallet send address field to send us a

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tip

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this week on Monero talk Douglas tuman

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interviews neat AKA eat sleep crypto a

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privacy Advocate and censorship

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resistance maximalist who writes about

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crypto evaluations and tokenomics the

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two discuss needs price analysis of

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Monero particularly the value derives

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from the unique utility it offers as

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untraceable digital cash and given the

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usage of Monero Beyond speculation what

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he predicts will be in store for Monera

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in 2024 once it's delisted from binance

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and much more

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more narrow Talk starts

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[Music]

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now Nate what's going on man not too

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much Douglas good to see you man I hear

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I hear the frogs in the

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background I was so hoping I was so

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hoping the frogs wouldn't show up but um

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it's funny everybody else thinks they're

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Birds but no they're the K frog it's

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native to Puerto Rico

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yes um what's going on what's uh tell

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tell us your your crypto story before we

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get get too far I honestly just found

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you on Twitter maybe a month or so ago

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you had posted a

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video where you kind of get into your

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your economic thesis on on monero's

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value on its utility um but yeah give us

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give us a quick intro before we get into

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all that stuff yeah awesome so um yeah

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background uh I guess I've been in the

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space you know my name's Nate I go by

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eat sleep crypto I've been in the space

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for the last 10 years now and writing

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about cryptocurrency valuation and

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tokenomics for the last six almost seven

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on eats sleep crypto.com so you can find

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the history of my insights there and um

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I guess I found Bitcoin in

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2013 I was really passionate about

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economics at the time was studying

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Information Systems in school and my

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friend told me about this new thing that

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was being used to pay for things on the

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dark Nets and I was like what you know

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how has this not been shut down he told

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me about the Silk Road and uh he's like

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yeah it's been going for a couple years

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and um and I was like all right well I

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have to check out this currency that

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they're using to pay for things because

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the US government must not be a fan of

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this dark net market and um so I dug

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into Bitcoin a little bit and uh you it

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was on the Bitcoin talk forums and and

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kept my ears U Loosely attuned to the

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space until 2017 the Ico boom came

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around and um I started to take a

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critical look at all the tokens that

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were being put out there and I said what

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gives any of these things value and that

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sort of led me to the question of what

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makes a currency valuable to begin with

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and I started putting out proforma

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models valuations of cryptocurrencies

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based on their uses in the protocol or

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the economy that they're in and and uh

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for Monero that's mainly as a medium of

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exchange for Bitcoin for a long time it

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was mainly as a medium of exchange but

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we all know that that pivoted around

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2015 2016 people started trying to limit

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the block size and you know the whole

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deal but um yeah and so that kind of

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question of what makes a currency

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valuable has led to this investigation

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and specialization that I have now at

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token dynamics that is um you know

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trying to engineer value into tokens um

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by including them in the protocol that

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they're used in in specific ways so

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that's kind of my background and um I

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guess other people have takeen to

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calling this tokenomics I've been

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writing about it before we really had a

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term but I prefer tokenomics to describe

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the way that a currency is used or a

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token is used in a protocol or an

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economy that causes it to ACR value um

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so that's kind of uh it's kind of my

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background um big Austrian Economist uh

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early Ron Paul fan and um you know from

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from that libertarian side of of the

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crypto space so I resonate with your

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show and a lot of your viewers as

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well awesome Sunita I think it's it's in

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my inside jacket I I told her grab my

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phone grab my phone I I feel naked

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without it so I could look things up as

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as we talk um wait what is the the

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company that you're with now it's called

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or the project yeah so I started token

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Dynamics in July after uh couple years

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of casually advising projects on

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tokenomics so token Dynamics were just

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all lowercase one word on Twitter um

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token dynamics. XYZ so we're a

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collective of token economists and we

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designed protocols with NY for the value

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that we can ACR to a token and the

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alignment of the incentives of protocols

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mostly ethereum and Cosmos based that um

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you know that cause them to be

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unexploitable and and censorship

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resistant that's our main focus is we

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want protocols to be built to last the

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next several decades if not to the next

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century rather than just pumping dumps

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that are made to pay off VCS or you know

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dump on ret what kind of Protocols are

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you guys building given like what and

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how is it different differentiating

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itself from what already exists and the

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utility that's already being provided

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out there yeah so we're we have a couple

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sides of of our shop right we've got

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like development side and that's mostly

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focused on hackathons putting out some

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MVPs so recently we at eth online

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created a an incentive system that pays

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out the people who pin a file on

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filecoin virtual machine for hosting the

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front end of a defi protocol and we use

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the real yield of that def5 protocol and

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pay out users across chains so filecoin

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virtual machine is an evm that um pays

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you for hosting files in the ipfs and it

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has the same key derivation as e because

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it's an evm so you can pay out from a

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real yield uh from a def protocol on

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polygon that's getting you know $10,000

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in fees you can distribute that directly

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to the people who are pinning that front

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end on the ipfs or actually on filecoin

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they're different and I often complate

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them but um you know we're focused on

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things that are solving real problems

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and that was one of our recent MVPs that

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we put out at hackathon we called it pin

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dependent and I'm sure people can dig it

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up in in my Twitter or token Dynamics

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Twitter history we tweeted a bit about

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it but um you know that was one and then

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uh another focus of ours is in our

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Consulting we're helping out some Oracle

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list defi protocols so people that are

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not relying on centralized Oracle

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providers to um you know provide a price

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fee or something like that we're trying

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to make things that are really

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robust so o overall I mean um you you I

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feel like you talk about this a lot what

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your writings and stuff just utility

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right this concept of what utilities do

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you think

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cryptocurrency provides what are what

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are the different different types of

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thing obviously digital cash I I would

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think you're you're it would be up there

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on your list but what else do you see

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crypto as being able to provide yeah

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yeah that's a great question um I've

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been thinking about this a lot for the

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last six months to a year and especially

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I think this comes up in the bare Market

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where people are like why are we here

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you know Eric vor's had that phenomenal

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speech asking why are we here and then

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answers it with basically censorship

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resistance right that is the number one

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thing that blockchains blockchainbased

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applications blockchainbased currencies

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can provide that nothing else can we

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don't have any other technologies that

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can provide censorship resistance for

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these kinds of um you know for arbitrary

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applications and so that is the main

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unique value proposition of

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cryptocurrencies and there are maybe two

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others I would say um you know public

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00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:33,320
auditability for public blockchains is

274
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:36,240
something of a unique value proposition

275
00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:39,200
but it's not that great of a value

276
00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,680
proposition right like there's not there

277
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:44,480
in my mind there are not that many

278
00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:47,320
things that benefit tremendously from um

279
00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:49,120
from auditability by by the public maybe

280
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,959
you know if you wanted to say we want to

281
00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,800
audit the fed and we want to be able to

282
00:11:50,959 --> 00:11:54,760
see their reserves then maybe a

283
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,399
blockchain um you know binding the

284
00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,760
government to a blockchain could be good

285
00:11:56,399 --> 00:11:59,279
for that reason but I think it's

286
00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:02,440
problematic for a number of other

287
00:11:59,279 --> 00:12:04,240
reasons and um you know as as Monero

288
00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,240
proponents I don't think we want to see

289
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:09,320
governments getting any more involved

290
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:11,360
than they already are in uh in

291
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,880
blockchains and digital currencies yeah

292
00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,720
yeah yeah I mean there's always been

293
00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,760
right like Bitcoin for governments and

294
00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,760
Manero for the people right is is like

295
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:21,920
some people thought about it in those

296
00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,959
terms um transparency for governments

297
00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,720
and privacy for people right right

298
00:12:23,959 --> 00:12:28,959
exactly like Julian Assange you know

299
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:30,680
it's um privacy for for the week or the

300
00:12:28,959 --> 00:12:32,600
individual and transparency for the

301
00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:34,560
powerful and I I tend to resonate with

302
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:38,120
that I think that's um a good starting

303
00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:41,440
point but um yeah so so main value

304
00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:44,240
propositions right I would say um this

305
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,199
this meme is becoming like open finance

306
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:49,040
um where the term the public audit

307
00:12:46,199 --> 00:12:50,720
ability is is turning into uh what we're

308
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,680
seeing ethereum pivot toward which is

309
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,480
open finance the inclusion of real world

310
00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:57,440
assets and and things like that they're

311
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:59,519
tracking assets on a blockchain um but

312
00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,240
the the challenge of trying to paint

313
00:12:59,519 --> 00:13:03,880
blockchains so the problem with painting

314
00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:06,920
blockchains as uh things that enable

315
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:10,120
open finance and and tokenized assets is

316
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:13,760
that these um any use case that

317
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:16,560
blockchains have also includes

318
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:20,959
censorship resistance right like the

319
00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:23,480
applications that open finance might um

320
00:13:20,959 --> 00:13:25,399
might use or involve are also going to

321
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:28,160
inherit censorship resistance and that

322
00:13:25,399 --> 00:13:31,079
actually diminishes the uh value

323
00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:33,639
proposition that they're purported to

324
00:13:31,079 --> 00:13:35,880
provide so but the main main value

325
00:13:33,639 --> 00:13:37,320
proposition is censorship resistance and

326
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:40,279
that will be found in money that'll be

327
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:42,480
found in the kind of data that goes on

328
00:13:40,279 --> 00:13:43,880
blockchains if there are sufficient fees

329
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,000
paying for those and I know that's a

330
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,959
whole uh there's a whole argument about

331
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,040
whether data should be on blockchains

332
00:13:47,959 --> 00:13:50,720
you know what kind of data and

333
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,720
everything like that but the main value

334
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:55,440
proposition of cryptocurrencies and

335
00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,600
blockchainbased applications is

336
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,880
censorship

337
00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:02,199
resistance so you obviously also think

338
00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:04,240
is that that there should be multiple

339
00:14:02,199 --> 00:14:06,959
cryptos right that should there isn't

340
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,880
just one crypto that's going to master

341
00:14:06,959 --> 00:14:09,880
the art of censorship resistance is that

342
00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,639
there can be multiple different

343
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,440
cryptocurrencies that are benefiting

344
00:14:11,639 --> 00:14:15,040
from censorship resistance is that is

345
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,959
that true and and like to what to what

346
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:20,360
degree do you see that being is is there

347
00:14:18,959 --> 00:14:22,560
going to be tons and tons of different

348
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:26,000
cryptos or or is it going to boil down

349
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:29,920
to a few that offer the most

350
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:32,839
utility yeah I think um so viously not a

351
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:35,279
maximalist of any kind I'm a I'm an

352
00:14:32,839 --> 00:14:37,959
individual freedom maximalist and so I

353
00:14:35,279 --> 00:14:41,000
think competition tends to be good for

354
00:14:37,959 --> 00:14:43,720
the consumer and uh the more competition

355
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:46,480
not necessarily the more players but the

356
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:49,560
easier it is to compete in this Arena

357
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:51,759
the better and for that we want to have

358
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,199
a lot of different ideas being tried a

359
00:14:51,759 --> 00:14:56,360
lot of different currencies in the

360
00:14:53,199 --> 00:14:59,519
market and I suspect they'll consolidate

361
00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,600
around a few major currencies and there

362
00:14:59,519 --> 00:15:04,000
will maybe be a long taale of

363
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:07,040
blockchains the argument against that

364
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:09,519
might be one of um you know that

365
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:13,279
considers Economic Security because a a

366
00:15:09,519 --> 00:15:16,920
chain with a low hash rate or a low cost

367
00:15:13,279 --> 00:15:19,519
to uh double spend essentially is going

368
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:22,240
to be relatively insecure so even if

369
00:15:19,519 --> 00:15:25,120
there are even if there is a long tail

370
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:27,279
of blockchains those might not be uh

371
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,079
interoperable with each other and

372
00:15:27,279 --> 00:15:31,360
diminishing their utilities so there

373
00:15:29,079 --> 00:15:33,399
there are network effects at play but I

374
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:37,360
suspect we'll see something like five to

375
00:15:33,399 --> 00:15:39,480
10 major chains um within 10 years maybe

376
00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,959
20 years you know that the market takes

377
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:44,040
a while in crypto yeah right it takes a

378
00:15:41,959 --> 00:15:46,560
while but then you know everything

379
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:49,399
happens all of a sudden eventually right

380
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:51,880
um so where do you see Monero fitting in

381
00:15:49,399 --> 00:15:54,399
in in your kind of portfolio of

382
00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:58,199
important projects things to keep an eye

383
00:15:54,399 --> 00:16:00,440
on yeah so I think Monero is probably

384
00:15:58,199 --> 00:16:03,040
the most most important digital cache

385
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,920
that we have um it's it's clearly got

386
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:08,560
the network effects and I think it's the

387
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:12,000
best-in-class Privacy for the liquidity

388
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:15,000
the depth of liquidity that it has and

389
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,839
um you know that liquidity can come from

390
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,759
centralized exchanges it can come from

391
00:16:16,839 --> 00:16:21,920
decentralized exchanges but at this rate

392
00:16:19,759 --> 00:16:24,880
I don't think another privacy coin is

393
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,880
likely to De Throne

394
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:31,759
Monero sweet sweet and so do you um so

395
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:35,519
we say privacy coins right so do you see

396
00:16:31,759 --> 00:16:37,839
Bitcoin also functioning as digital cash

397
00:16:35,519 --> 00:16:40,399
or do you think it it you know just

398
00:16:37,839 --> 00:16:43,240
provides other utility yeah well like

399
00:16:40,399 --> 00:16:47,279
you said I think um there are some

400
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:49,800
people that say Bitcoin for transparency

401
00:16:47,279 --> 00:16:52,399
or Bitcoin for for the government or for

402
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:54,160
the public for the big Banks and Monero

403
00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:57,279
for the individuals or for people who

404
00:16:54,160 --> 00:17:00,079
care about privacy but um I don't see

405
00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:02,880
that actually playing out in Bitcoin

406
00:17:00,079 --> 00:17:05,240
space like the more uh you know I love

407
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:07,839
seeing I think it's coin cards has a

408
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:10,160
monthly update and they show every month

409
00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:13,640
that Monero is gaining on Bitcoin in

410
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:15,959
terms of who's using it and um initially

411
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:18,559
I I assumed that this was people wanting

412
00:17:15,959 --> 00:17:20,280
to take their privacy back but I think

413
00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:23,439
it could actually just be people that

414
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:26,120
are looking for little fees yeah ability

415
00:17:23,439 --> 00:17:29,320
yeah exactly like Monero has some of the

416
00:17:26,120 --> 00:17:31,039
cheapest fees of any chain and um I

417
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,840
haven't done an analysis on this but I

418
00:17:31,039 --> 00:17:36,000
wouldn't be surprised if Monero had the

419
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:37,799
cheapest fees per depth of liquidity per

420
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,960
unit of liquidity that there is in the

421
00:17:37,799 --> 00:17:42,280
market um you know there are a lot of

422
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:44,000
coins with cheaper fees Nano is is dirt

423
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,200
cheap but I don't think there's as much

424
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,520
volume on something like Nano or

425
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:53,000
something like Bitcoin cash for example

426
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:54,919
so um yeah I mean monero's monero's got

427
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:58,760
a a pretty good value proposition at

428
00:17:54,919 --> 00:18:01,360
this point for for uh everyday users for

429
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:03,799
sure for sure

430
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:05,679
um and so interesting because when I

431
00:18:03,799 --> 00:18:09,320
when I first discovered you you were

432
00:18:05,679 --> 00:18:12,240
kind of talking about the base utility

433
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:14,000
that that Monero offers right and then

434
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,960
knowing what that base utility is being

435
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:20,760
able to derive its its valuation right

436
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:23,159
using what is it MV equals PQ right or

437
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:26,679
um and basically uh determining that

438
00:18:23,159 --> 00:18:28,480
there there's a base value to a uh a

439
00:18:26,679 --> 00:18:31,039
cryptocurrency particularly one that's

440
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:34,440
taking on the utility of digital cash

441
00:18:31,039 --> 00:18:37,240
right and that value is based on the the

442
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:41,240
the amount of uh the market that it's

443
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:43,039
serving right um and and so we had

444
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,919
already I think I think I had already oh

445
00:18:43,039 --> 00:18:47,120
no you reached out to me when B the

446
00:18:44,919 --> 00:18:48,960
binance thing happened right because

447
00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:50,400
that is this is the perfect example of

448
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,559
it now right so we should this should be

449
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,480
an interesting

450
00:18:51,559 --> 00:18:56,760
experiment um we're saying Monero has

451
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,640
some base value and you can get into a

452
00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:01,120
little more detail on on what how you

453
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,559
how you're deriving that or how one

454
00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:05,880
should derive that and I guess

455
00:19:03,559 --> 00:19:08,200
technically we should be seeing that

456
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:10,280
potentially seeing that base value uh

457
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,320
come into play soon right if Monero is

458
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,600
ultimately delisted from all

459
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,440
exchanges yeah well I have some good

460
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:20,240
news and bad news on that point but yes

461
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:24,039
Monero does have some base value um so

462
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:26,159
in uh I guess 2018 I think it was Chris

463
00:19:24,039 --> 00:19:28,559
berneski put out evaluation of a

464
00:19:26,159 --> 00:19:30,320
fictional internet currency so a

465
00:19:28,559 --> 00:19:32,919
currency that was used to pay for the

466
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:35,400
internet he called it inet and he used

467
00:19:32,919 --> 00:19:37,919
the equation MV equals PQ which dates

468
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:40,520
all the way back to John Stewart Mill

469
00:19:37,919 --> 00:19:43,400
Milton fredman popularized this in the

470
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,600
later part of the 20th century and I've

471
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,240
adapted it to valuing various

472
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:50,039
cryptocurrencies because many

473
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:52,720
cryptocurrencies are proper currencies

474
00:19:50,039 --> 00:19:55,520
and there are precedents for valuing

475
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:58,480
currencies in traditional Finance so you

476
00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:01,159
can apply the equation MB equals PQ the

477
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,159
equation of exchange to Monero with

478
00:20:01,159 --> 00:20:07,080
adjustable assumptions I did this back

479
00:20:03,159 --> 00:20:08,760
in 2019 and um and calculated out a what

480
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,000
I call a price floor so this is the

481
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:13,640
minimum possible value for a currency to

482
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:16,280
sustain based on its use in a protocol

483
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:19,039
and for Monero this is its use in the

484
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:21,520
economies that it's used in so the the

485
00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:23,880
simple way to put it is that a currency

486
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:26,600
has to be worth at least as much as all

487
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,960
of the things that it buys in some time

488
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:31,320
frame divided by the number of times

489
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:34,159
each unit is used more than once that's

490
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,960
called velocity the FED tracks the St

491
00:20:34,159 --> 00:20:38,440
Louis fed tracks the velocity of the

492
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,480
dollar it's somewhere around five or six

493
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,559
currencies cryptocurrencies tend to be

494
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,760
higher because people have less of a

495
00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:47,320
Time preference for holding they want to

496
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:50,000
get rid of things that are more volatile

497
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,039
um luckily for Monero and and actually

498
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,919
maybe

499
00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:57,640
counterintuitively it has been uh

500
00:20:53,919 --> 00:20:58,679
relatively less volatile because it is

501
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:03,840
traded

502
00:20:58,679 --> 00:21:06,400
and actually sold short or there are um

503
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:09,280
I guess the thesis of moneron was that

504
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:11,600
currency uh exchanges were selling

505
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,400
shares of Monero that didn't exist coins

506
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,720
that actually didn't exist so this was

507
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:19,559
kind of like um

508
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:22,960
2022 maybe moneron popped uh popped up

509
00:21:19,559 --> 00:21:24,799
on Reddit uh April 2022 and so I I wrote

510
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,919
this article it was right before the

511
00:21:24,799 --> 00:21:28,760
first Monero Topia or right around yeah

512
00:21:27,919 --> 00:21:31,200
yeah

513
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:33,400
perfect yeah and I'm you know grateful

514
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:37,240
that everyone took action on that and

515
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:39,640
that kind of movement took C right yeah

516
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,080
and we we saw was a quick Spike and then

517
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,760
binance froze the uh the withdrawals

518
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,559
again and that's exactly what you would

519
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:49,840
ex expect if they were running a

520
00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:52,120
fractional Reserve System to sell um you

521
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:54,600
know P essentially paper shares of

522
00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:57,880
Monero um I'm going to loop back around

523
00:21:54,600 --> 00:22:00,640
to MV equals PQ the equation of exchange

524
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:03,279
but um I I do want to say that there

525
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:05,840
there is ample there are ample analoges

526
00:22:03,279 --> 00:22:09,039
in traditional finance a friend of mine

527
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:11,559
actually sued JP Morgan uh for

528
00:22:09,039 --> 00:22:13,039
manipulating the silver Futures Market

529
00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:17,960
back in

530
00:22:13,039 --> 00:22:20,640
2010 20 I think it was 2010 to 2012 or

531
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:24,039
so and that's because you know what he

532
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:26,840
was alleging is that uh JP Morgan and

533
00:22:24,039 --> 00:22:29,520
and likely other big Banks but JP Morgan

534
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:31,679
is the largest in the US we're selling

535
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,440
paper shares of silver to suppress the

536
00:22:31,679 --> 00:22:35,159
price because if someone wants to buy

537
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,960
and then you say well here you go and

538
00:22:35,159 --> 00:22:39,279
they don't actually ask for the

539
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:42,960
underlying asset like asking for the

540
00:22:39,279 --> 00:22:45,880
physical silver or asking for the XMR

541
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:48,159
coins then you can just sell them some

542
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,760
currency that never gets redeemed and

543
00:22:48,159 --> 00:22:53,200
you you are able to run a very

544
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:56,760
profitable operation that way so um it's

545
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:58,760
what banks legally do right traditional

546
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,919
banking system works

547
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,440
exactly and that's that's how Banks work

548
00:23:00,919 --> 00:23:05,080
with the fractional Reserve System with

549
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,840
with your dollars if you deposit you

550
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:10,080
know they'll have a reserve requirement

551
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:12,120
10 20% and they'll lend out the rest and

552
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,400
it's supposed to be that if you deposit

553
00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:16,799
$100 they're supposed to keep 10 or keep

554
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:20,159
20 but what it turns out to be is that

555
00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:21,600
you deposit 10 and they loan out a 100

556
00:23:20,159 --> 00:23:23,799
so

557
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,919
um and so that's kind of what we've been

558
00:23:23,799 --> 00:23:29,520
seeing with Monero is is at least my

559
00:23:25,919 --> 00:23:32,760
thesis this is validated by Monon and I

560
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:36,360
think it's it's going to be potentially

561
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:38,279
validated by these D listings um

562
00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:40,240
actually likely it's it's either going

563
00:23:38,279 --> 00:23:43,200
to be validated or invalidated by these

564
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:45,840
D listings if there are no Fiat 2 XMR

565
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:49,000
on-ramps anymore I expect Monero to

566
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:52,279
become much more volatile and to the

567
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:54,640
upside and the downside um and so here's

568
00:23:52,279 --> 00:23:57,039
here's kind of how MV equals PQ plays

569
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,799
into it there is a minimum possible

570
00:23:57,039 --> 00:24:02,840
price for every token based on their use

571
00:23:59,799 --> 00:24:05,840
in an economy or a protocol and for

572
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:09,480
Monero it's used to buy things on

573
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:11,880
various exchange or uh not exchanges

574
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:15,840
maybe exchanges that have XMR pairs but

575
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:19,840
marketplaces of different kinds and um

576
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:23,159
so when XMR is used to buy these things

577
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:25,360
somebody has to buy that XMR for BTC for

578
00:24:23,159 --> 00:24:28,360
dollars for something else and that is

579
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:31,679
essential demand that is placing con buy

580
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:35,000
pressure on the token in aggregate the

581
00:24:31,679 --> 00:24:37,440
amount of purchases are going to

582
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:41,279
correspond to the value of the goods and

583
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:43,360
services that are being paid for in XMR

584
00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:47,000
so that's kind of like the axiomatic

585
00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:49,279
framework that we dark Market do I mean

586
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,799
we we have a what I'm sure you've done

587
00:24:49,279 --> 00:24:54,000
some research what can what do you think

588
00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:58,440
is the is the best estimate for what the

589
00:24:54,000 --> 00:25:01,559
Monero dark Market usage market cap is

590
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:07,200
like you know give us a yeah it's it's

591
00:25:01,559 --> 00:25:09,960
so um it's really hard to tell um I I

592
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:13,320
think it's in the order of 10 billion a

593
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:15,720
year but I don't I don't really know

594
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:18,159
because when you say dark Market it's

595
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,600
like what is a dark Market because if

596
00:25:18,159 --> 00:25:22,799
you ask the government dark markets are

597
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,799
just the things that people are buying

598
00:25:22,799 --> 00:25:27,399
or at places people are buying things

599
00:25:24,799 --> 00:25:30,080
they don't want them to buy but right if

600
00:25:27,399 --> 00:25:33,200
you look at the kinds of markets that

601
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:37,000
need privacy coins that's a lot greater

602
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:39,840
of a market like I have um you know this

603
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:44,000
kind of the future thought here for

604
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:47,919
later on but um one of

605
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:50,279
my core beliefs about Monero is that

606
00:25:47,919 --> 00:25:52,919
people will always need privacy coins

607
00:25:50,279 --> 00:25:56,399
and that's because various agencies have

608
00:25:52,919 --> 00:25:59,240
black book budgets and or black budgets

609
00:25:56,399 --> 00:26:01,399
where they they can't actually use

610
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,960
dollars or they can't use digital

611
00:26:01,399 --> 00:26:06,520
dollars suitcase they traditionally use

612
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:09,520
suitcases right

613
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:11,679
yeah right and so the higher you know

614
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,120
the more complex the threat model the

615
00:26:11,679 --> 00:26:16,919
greater the need for something like

616
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:19,480
Monero or uh in Monero with extra steps

617
00:26:16,919 --> 00:26:22,440
um you know there's there's

618
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:25,799
uh point being there is significant

619
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:29,279
demand for a very private currency and

620
00:26:25,799 --> 00:26:31,679
if we expand our concept of dark markets

621
00:26:29,279 --> 00:26:34,720
in five 10 years when maybe there's a

622
00:26:31,679 --> 00:26:37,360
cbdc instead of $100 bills that you can

623
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:40,080
stuff into a duffel bag then Monero

624
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:42,520
becomes even more attractive so I don't

625
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:44,880
know whether those same markets that

626
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:47,600
would be used in 10 years where Monero

627
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:50,559
would be used in 10 years exists today

628
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:53,279
but um when I think about the total

629
00:26:50,559 --> 00:26:58,919
volume of Monero and where it's flowing

630
00:26:53,279 --> 00:27:02,720
I imagine some of that is is um you know

631
00:26:58,919 --> 00:27:05,279
being used in these kinds of markets and

632
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,679
um for those purposes but we don't know

633
00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:11,480
because monero's private by default and

634
00:27:07,679 --> 00:27:14,679
uh so back of the napkin you know if we

635
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:18,080
use best guesses right uh using MV

636
00:27:14,679 --> 00:27:19,799
equals PQ assuming uh an addressable

637
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,440
Market or an Market that's actually

638
00:27:19,799 --> 00:27:25,919
being uh used of let's say what would

639
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:27,640
you say you said 10 billion right uh and

640
00:27:25,919 --> 00:27:29,279
some other good assumptions on terms of

641
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,080
the amount of Monero that's actually in

642
00:27:29,279 --> 00:27:33,720
circulation I don't know what what you

643
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:36,200
would put that at I think

644
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,440
that's go

645
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,080
ahead what is your number what are you

646
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:44,200
uh what are you value what would you

647
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,200
value Monero at using

648
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:51,760
mvpqb the bad news side um is I think

649
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,440
it's probably fairly priced right now

650
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,360
because what we see is that when Bitcoin

651
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,440
goes up and Monero wants to go with it

652
00:27:56,360 --> 00:28:02,799
it tends to snap back

653
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:04,840
um pretty quickly and um I think that

654
00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:08,000
the kind of paper shares that are being

655
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:10,200
sold on binance could be pushing Monero

656
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,960
to its price floor um but

657
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:16,519
counterintuitively that makes it a

658
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:19,240
better currency and so what I'm actually

659
00:28:16,519 --> 00:28:22,480
uh less looking forward to uh than than

660
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:25,279
most people in the Monero ecosystem is

661
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,960
these D listings um I think D listings

662
00:28:25,279 --> 00:28:29,799
could make XMR much more volatile

663
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,840
because you don't have someone that's

664
00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:36,200
selling paper shares into speculators

665
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:38,039
and um that's crazy yeah so that's

666
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:41,200
that's kind of my thesis right and we'll

667
00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:42,799
see if this plays out but and then so it

668
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,519
also I mean basically you're just saying

669
00:28:42,799 --> 00:28:47,679
it makes it less liquid right well yeah

670
00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:51,799
it makes it less liquid but but also

671
00:28:47,679 --> 00:28:55,840
think about if we all of a sudden had uh

672
00:28:51,799 --> 00:28:59,600
50% greater demand for XMR that would

673
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:02,159
push the price uh in a in a fair market

674
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,120
in a in well maybe not in a in a free

675
00:29:02,159 --> 00:29:06,600
unregulated market but in let's say in a

676
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:09,120
fair market that would push the price up

677
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:13,200
to from what's it 170 right now let's

678
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:16,760
say that would push the price to 190 um

679
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:19,000
the the effect if binance is selling

680
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:22,080
paper shares to all of those speculators

681
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:25,440
who are not then withdrawing the XMR to

682
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:28,799
spend it somewhere is that the price

683
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:32,360
stays the same binance is able to sell

684
00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:34,159
at you know 170 sell all at 170 create a

685
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,399
giant cell wall and then sell it to

686
00:29:34,159 --> 00:29:40,120
people who never withdraw or they're

687
00:29:36,399 --> 00:29:43,360
able to sell at allow it to go up to 175

688
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:46,360
180 and then sell it there back down to

689
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:48,880
170 where the essential demand is coming

690
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,559
up to push the price of Monero up to

691
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,240
keep it up at the level that it needs to

692
00:29:50,559 --> 00:29:57,600
be to withdraw it and then spend it on

693
00:29:53,240 --> 00:30:00,440
these markets and um so but would I mean

694
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,240
in my intuition and I guess you know you

695
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:05,279
could explain why it's otherwise would

696
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:07,039
be that it would maybe initially you

697
00:30:05,279 --> 00:30:07,960
know as soon as this happens you'll see

698
00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:10,320
some

699
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,799
volatility but then it will dampen out

700
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,880
because it's going to tend towards its

701
00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:15,760
true value and now it's true value will

702
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,480
be even more true than it was because

703
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,440
it's literally going to be based on the

704
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:22,399
demand of people needing to go to go

705
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:24,720
acquire Monero for purposes of using it

706
00:30:22,399 --> 00:30:28,519
and they'll use decentralized exchanges

707
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:31,480
or whatever to do so so would in that

708
00:30:28,519 --> 00:30:35,159
kind of take us to the base utility

709
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,679
price yeah it would and um but I think

710
00:30:35,159 --> 00:30:39,000
that utility price is going to be

711
00:30:36,679 --> 00:30:41,559
slightly lower because I do expect with

712
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,960
the difficulty The increased difficulty

713
00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:46,360
of getting Monero that something like

714
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:50,600
Bitcoin even though it's not even a good

715
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:52,640
substitute will be used for a portion of

716
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:55,919
the same purchases that Monero is being

717
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:57,600
used for now um you know if you consider

718
00:30:55,919 --> 00:30:59,240
that there's a a good number number

719
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,159
there's some number of people that are

720
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:04,200
using Monero because it's cheaper than

721
00:31:01,159 --> 00:31:05,960
Bitcoin but accepted in the same places

722
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,360
and they can get it on binance you know

723
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:11,960
they could get both then maybe when

724
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:14,519
Bitcoin has a $50 fee they'll go back to

725
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,360
bitcoin because $50 is cheaper than

726
00:31:14,519 --> 00:31:19,679
spending the three hours that it's going

727
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,880
to take them to or potentially longer

728
00:31:19,679 --> 00:31:22,679
that it's going to take them to get a

729
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:27,279
hold of Monero so I don't know how much

730
00:31:22,679 --> 00:31:29,240
it'll dampen the XMR price um but I do

731
00:31:27,279 --> 00:31:32,320
think it'll it'll alleviate some of the

732
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:35,360
demand for XMR that is essential

733
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:38,200
demand yeah yeah it's going to be uh

734
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:40,120
wild whatever it is right so how fast do

735
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,360
you think we see we start to see the

736
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:45,840
effects of this binance

737
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:47,679
delisting yeah good question I think um

738
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,360
probably pretty quickly and there's a

739
00:31:47,679 --> 00:31:51,320
handful of other exchanges that I've

740
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:54,240
seen in the news that are delisting I

741
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:56,120
believe okx was another and uh they

742
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,880
weren't just delisting Monero they were

743
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:02,399
delisting Dash they're delisting I saw

744
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:04,200
zcash is getting Dlisted somewhere um

745
00:32:02,399 --> 00:32:06,600
which it you know makes me wonder what's

746
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,799
going on behind the scenes that's

747
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,320
pressuring these exchanges to delist

748
00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:13,200
privacy coins because no no exchange

749
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:16,840
wants to delist a currency that they're

750
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:19,600
making money on um but but what's kind

751
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:23,919
of funny to me is like Monero has been

752
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:25,960
the outspoken Pro privacy like privacy

753
00:32:23,919 --> 00:32:27,720
by default coin and these other coins

754
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,600
have been kind of hedging their and cow

755
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:33,840
to to various regulators and saying well

756
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:37,159
we're not always private you can be

757
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,960
compliant with zcash or with other

758
00:32:37,159 --> 00:32:41,360
currencies and they're still getting

759
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,480
Dlisted so it's helped them you know

760
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:46,679
they've completely nuked their value

761
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:50,039
proposition and um and they're still you

762
00:32:46,679 --> 00:32:50,039
know not getting any of the

763
00:32:54,279 --> 00:33:01,480
benefits do you love coffee and Monera

764
00:32:57,159 --> 00:33:01,480
as we do consider making gratuitous

765
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,519
toorgle cash tip directly to the farmers

766
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,880
that made it

767
00:33:09,519 --> 00:33:15,220
possible proceeds help us grow this

768
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:18,359
channel gratuitous and

769
00:33:15,220 --> 00:33:18,359
[Music]

770
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:27,039
Monero we we always knew this was coming

771
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:29,559
right you know be careful what you wish

772
00:33:27,039 --> 00:33:31,320
for type of thing right so um we always

773
00:33:29,559 --> 00:33:33,880
knew this was coming I I certainly you

774
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:36,600
know I welcome it as an inevitability

775
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:39,200
and the the right direction for for the

776
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,559
project and overall building a strong

777
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,120
Foundation that then just grows into a

778
00:33:41,559 --> 00:33:46,080
behemoth of a thing that can't be

779
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:48,600
stopped right because now now we're

780
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:51,200
we're still we're being molded in we're

781
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,760
still in the early ages here with Monero

782
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:57,519
and we're being molded into a more

783
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:58,960
decentralized environment untethered to

784
00:33:57,519 --> 00:34:02,399
centralized

785
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:04,039
systems so it's going to turn I think

786
00:34:02,399 --> 00:34:05,360
ultimately Monero into the most

787
00:34:04,039 --> 00:34:09,960
censorship

788
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:12,919
resistant form of form of crypto agreed

789
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:15,560
be my thesis right so now I don't know

790
00:34:12,919 --> 00:34:18,480
you know how long it takes for that to

791
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:20,639
now become something that's worth a lot

792
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:23,000
more than it is today in terms of

793
00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:24,200
utility I could see it happening what

794
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,359
what what's your thinking there do you

795
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:29,359
see a scenario where the price starts to

796
00:34:26,359 --> 00:34:33,359
go up to and goes up it becomes harder

797
00:34:29,359 --> 00:34:34,800
like maybe uh the value of Monero or the

798
00:34:33,359 --> 00:34:37,359
market that it's currently addressing is

799
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,079
is larger than we may think right people

800
00:34:37,359 --> 00:34:42,480
have a real need for it they need to go

801
00:34:39,079 --> 00:34:45,280
get it to use it but it's not so easy to

802
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:47,599
get it so that friction actually adds a

803
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:50,040
premium to the price of Monero what what

804
00:34:47,599 --> 00:34:53,679
do you think of that potential scenario

805
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:55,520
yeah I think um I see this in evolving

806
00:34:53,679 --> 00:34:58,480
in kind of three steps I completely

807
00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:00,599
agree with you that um this will harden

808
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:03,119
Monero and make it more censorship

809
00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:05,640
resistant and is overall probably a good

810
00:35:03,119 --> 00:35:08,160
thing I think Defi and crypto in general

811
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:12,480
has been extremely weakened by people's

812
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:16,599
attempts to um work with regulators and

813
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:18,440
their um you know General pursuit of

814
00:35:16,599 --> 00:35:20,240
profit instead of values and I don't

815
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,839
think those two are mutually exclusive

816
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:24,880
but Monero has certainly held up the

817
00:35:21,839 --> 00:35:27,800
values and um you know sometimes to the

818
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:31,240
exclusion of of uh the profitable

819
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:33,640
alternative you know basically provoking

820
00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:35,160
exchange D listings by not saying we're

821
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,040
going to change the protocol so that

822
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:41,480
it's slightly compliant or that you can

823
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:45,240
have um yeah um so I I see this in kind

824
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:48,520
of two phases maybe three um the first

825
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:51,280
is this is happening at at a great time

826
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:53,160
um in terms of like other crypto

827
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,800
development the infrastructure has been

828
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:58,640
developing so we're seeing sidex is

829
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:01,040
around the corner there's Maya protocol

830
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:03,280
which I I'm not sure if is going to

831
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:06,079
include Monero at any point but we've

832
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,079
got Sarai coming around the corner is

833
00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:10,520
Maya is derived from thorchain is like

834
00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:12,760
basically a fork Thor essentially yeah

835
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,400
it's uh Thor Thor Chain's hot little

836
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:19,359
sister is the

837
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:21,160
main so they're um they are basically uh

838
00:36:19,359 --> 00:36:22,760
they're taking on all the smaller cap

839
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,520
coins but they're plugging in with

840
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,760
cardano they're plugging in with

841
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:29,520
arbitrum um so for for the viewers that

842
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,560
might not know these thorchain is a

843
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,839
cross-chain decentralized exchange

844
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:36,800
you've got Rune the base token as half

845
00:36:33,839 --> 00:36:38,280
of every pair in a liquidity pool and uh

846
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,720
trades route through those so if you

847
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:43,400
want to trade BTC to eth you trade BTC

848
00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:46,319
to run Rune to eth and then pay fees

849
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:48,839
along the way and um really interesting

850
00:36:46,319 --> 00:36:51,960
system Maya protocol is a copy of that

851
00:36:48,839 --> 00:36:56,400
that has a handful more and Sarai is

852
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:58,839
going to be eth BTC Monero and D to

853
00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,520
start with potentially the Sarai token

854
00:36:58,839 --> 00:37:03,240
in the middle I'm not sure exactly how

855
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:06,040
they're architecting it but um very

856
00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:08,119
interested to uh see and and hopefully

857
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:11,640
help Luke and the rest of the team with

858
00:37:08,119 --> 00:37:14,720
that but um yeah perfect timing right

859
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:16,240
like centralized exchanges are failing H

860
00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:18,920
they're you know that was kind of the

861
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:22,040
the start of the cycle and now they're

862
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:24,079
delisting privacy coins but we're going

863
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,640
to have we are about to have something

864
00:37:24,079 --> 00:37:28,000
where Monero can be traded

865
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,680
permissionless with extremely deep

866
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:34,440
liquidity I think it's likely that a lot

867
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:36,079
of people will LP on Sarai um so that's

868
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:40,119
a few we have we have Sarai that's

869
00:37:36,079 --> 00:37:44,640
coming up um then we have

870
00:37:40,119 --> 00:37:46,839
havo right havo is U is that a like a

871
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:49,000
software like a local desktop software

872
00:37:46,839 --> 00:37:50,240
GUI kind of thing yeah it's it's like a

873
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,599
fork AB

874
00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:56,280
bisque a Monero based bisque that's been

875
00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:58,839
being worked on for quite some time and

876
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,800
uh by by talented developers you know a

877
00:37:58,839 --> 00:38:01,880
lot of time they're putting into it so

878
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,560
that that should be that should be

879
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:07,040
interesting as well uh and what do oh

880
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,160
and then Atomic swaps right they've been

881
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:12,280
around for a while in Monera but haven't

882
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:15,280
really been made usable yet we're seeing

883
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:17,079
Samurai wallet and Bitcoin to Monero

884
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,400
Atomic swaps I'm sure I don't know if

885
00:38:17,079 --> 00:38:20,560
you saw like today they were tweeting

886
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,040
about it now my understanding is

887
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,040
initially it's for the purposes of just

888
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,160
getting rid of toxic change or something

889
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:28,880
but it's I would assume that's going to

890
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,880
evolve into people natively like using

891
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,800
that for for swapping into an out of

892
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,119
Monero that'd be silly if it if it

893
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,800
doesn't turn into that so that's

894
00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:39,760
interesting too and that's a nice bridge

895
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:42,400
to the Bitcoin privacy community and all

896
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:45,400
of Samurai you know that whole

897
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:47,920
tent right yeah yeah I mean I hope it

898
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,640
develops into that as well um I did see

899
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,319
that on Twitter today it's really

900
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:54,680
exciting I think all this infrastructure

901
00:38:52,319 --> 00:38:57,400
popping up that's allowing Monero to

902
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:59,560
permissionless interoperate with other

903
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:02,200
blockchains another you know going back

904
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:04,720
to the point of having multiple chains

905
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,920
is a great thing like this is this is

906
00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:09,800
awesome for Monero is that other chains

907
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:13,040
exist that can plug into Fiat on ramps

908
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:15,599
and also be traded for XMR in a way

909
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:17,079
that's that's virtually untraceable

910
00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:20,160
right like if you have Atomic swaps no

911
00:39:17,079 --> 00:39:23,119
one knows that chain a and chain B these

912
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:26,160
transactions going here to here are

913
00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:29,000
going to be trades across chains that's

914
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:31,280
that's a brilliant um breaking of the

915
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,640
link Inn

916
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,520
chainalysis yeah yeah yeah I'm just

917
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:39,319
thinking here I also wonder if you know

918
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:42,079
a a strien effect eventually comes into

919
00:39:39,319 --> 00:39:45,200
play uh where people start wondering why

920
00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:47,720
why why Monero you know becomes headline

921
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:50,280
news you know Monero maybe delisting

922
00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:53,200
from binance won't be won't won't be

923
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:55,640
seen by normies but you know maybe once

924
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,960
countries start to start to try to ban

925
00:39:55,640 --> 00:40:02,160
it you you know people start to ask

926
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:04,480
questions yeah I mean definit right like

927
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:06,079
I think that's certainly um in the

928
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,359
libertarian crowd you know it's it's

929
00:40:06,079 --> 00:40:10,920
like the government doesn't want us to

930
00:40:07,359 --> 00:40:13,760
have this why why not let's look into it

931
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,960
and um and I think that's becoming a a

932
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,839
large silent minority so we could see

933
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,240
some kind of striesand effect with

934
00:40:17,839 --> 00:40:23,440
Monero and um you know with the D

935
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:26,560
listings XMR is going to be floating if

936
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:29,599
it were delisted from virtually all EX

937
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:31,920
changes um where where you know let's

938
00:40:29,599 --> 00:40:34,119
say the majority of volume is happening

939
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,800
on a decentralized Exchange price

940
00:40:34,119 --> 00:40:38,400
discoveries happening on a decentralized

941
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:40,200
exchange of some kind um then we are

942
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:43,119
going to see the price start to deviate

943
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:45,800
from its price floor and I think that

944
00:40:43,119 --> 00:40:49,480
will lead to what we saw with Bitcoin

945
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:52,319
the first two uh times that it spiked in

946
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:55,280
in public in the public eye was uh in

947
00:40:52,319 --> 00:40:59,119
2013 people started using Bitcoin on the

948
00:40:55,280 --> 00:41:01,160
Silk Road and from 2011 to 2013 and then

949
00:40:59,119 --> 00:41:02,560
people saw the price was going up and

950
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,359
then other people saw the price was

951
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,359
going up and it just started to go

952
00:41:04,359 --> 00:41:08,200
parabolic right and that all started

953
00:41:06,359 --> 00:41:11,079
because it was used as a medium of

954
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,920
exchange Monero could see the same thing

955
00:41:11,079 --> 00:41:15,520
now that price is not going to be

956
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:18,560
dampened by paper shares that are being

957
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:21,000
sold by binance and others the price can

958
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,560
actually go up because of speculation

959
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,000
and so we could see the same kind of

960
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,960
run-ups happening with XMR that we've

961
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:30,000
seen with Bitcoin in the past as long as

962
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:32,319
price Discovery is happening off

963
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:35,200
centralized

964
00:41:32,319 --> 00:41:38,720
exchanges yeah it was when Senator Chuck

965
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:40,200
Schumer was like going after Silk Road

966
00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:41,880
well that was one of the moments that I

967
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,960
think back to when I was like what's

968
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:47,280
this Bitcoin thing right uh I had heard

969
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:50,480
about it earlier before right and

970
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,760
stopped heard about it I just assumed

971
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,000
assumed it was something that could be

972
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,640
stopped I didn't know right I didn't

973
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,480
realize at that point there was a you

974
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,119
know some had made some breakthrough and

975
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,400
invented a

976
00:41:59,119 --> 00:42:03,760
decentralized tech right so but that

977
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,960
goes to show you right so that was like

978
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:09,720
a mainstream moment um I think I think

979
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:13,000
we will start to see those with Monero

980
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:15,079
when you see even even that right when

981
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:17,200
uh if it's not Chuck Schumer or somebody

982
00:42:15,079 --> 00:42:19,599
else Senator Warren you know might might

983
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:22,119
start to call it out by name at some

984
00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:24,119
point would love that I mean talk about

985
00:42:22,119 --> 00:42:27,559
a stri hend effect that would be that

986
00:42:24,119 --> 00:42:31,520
would be phenomenal um and I I think in

987
00:42:27,559 --> 00:42:34,480
either case I'm I'm pretty bullish on

988
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:36,800
uncensorable untraceable digital cache

989
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:42,040
because there will there is a massive

990
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:45,880
market for this um so in 2018 I did EV

991
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:48,839
valuation maybe late 2017 early 2018 did

992
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:52,359
a valuation of Bitcoin and I used the

993
00:42:48,839 --> 00:42:54,640
Swift um interbank it's the uh interbank

994
00:42:52,359 --> 00:42:57,680
exchange system so all the payments that

995
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:59,240
you route from um the US to Europe are

996
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,760
going to be going through Swift for

997
00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:03,920
example and there are there's something

998
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:07,119
like 10 quadrillion dollars a year

999
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:09,119
that's transacted in this system um if

1000
00:43:07,119 --> 00:43:12,200
you think about and so my basis for

1001
00:43:09,119 --> 00:43:14,000
Bitcoin valuation was this Swift system

1002
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,040
and I said if it was just processing

1003
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,319
Swift and has the same velocity as the

1004
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,800
dollar each Bitcoin is100

1005
00:43:18,319 --> 00:43:23,720
million that is not going to happen with

1006
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:26,280
Bitcoin at least not directly and unless

1007
00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:28,160
you know unless governments want to have

1008
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,680
everything be backed by Bitcoin and even

1009
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:34,280
then I'm not sure that the um volume

1010
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:38,200
would translate but there is a sizable

1011
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:41,240
market for digital payments right and uh

1012
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:44,240
for payments that are not only digital

1013
00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:47,160
but also private and untraceable I think

1014
00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:48,960
there's at least the same size market

1015
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,839
right like if it's the same price people

1016
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,720
are going to opt for privacy where they

1017
00:43:50,839 --> 00:43:56,119
can get it um so I'm not saying that

1018
00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:59,480
Monero will reach aund million but

1019
00:43:56,119 --> 00:44:04,920
there's a huge market for something like

1020
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:08,040
XMR to become used as a Global Payments

1021
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:11,400
medium and um the things that that

1022
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:14,880
Monero has in addition to uh privacy

1023
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:17,400
that Bitcoin doesn't is the uh block

1024
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:20,200
size the adapted block size and they

1025
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:24,000
have basically solved scaling for a

1026
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:26,040
small you know a Theo set of people that

1027
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,319
want to use it today like Monero has

1028
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,599
kept up with scaling in a way that

1029
00:44:27,319 --> 00:44:34,079
Bitcoin hasn't so I'm I'm very hopeful

1030
00:44:30,599 --> 00:44:35,920
for this um future adoption regardless

1031
00:44:34,079 --> 00:44:38,319
of whether it gets the striesand effect

1032
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:40,599
and other things but I I also suspect

1033
00:44:38,319 --> 00:44:40,599
that it

1034
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:48,160
will where what what you know it's

1035
00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:51,400
when's New Year's tomorrow it's coming

1036
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:53,680
like yeah a couple days right 2023 is

1037
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:56,800
almost over what are your predictions

1038
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:59,480
for 2024 or

1039
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:02,640
so I feel like crypto in general what do

1040
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:06,040
you think we might see yeah um

1041
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:07,720
counterintuitive things maybe let's see

1042
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,079
I I'm always hopeful I'll start this off

1043
00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:11,520
with that I'm always hopeful that

1044
00:45:09,079 --> 00:45:13,079
privacy is gonna become like a a

1045
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,280
highlight you know that the Privacy

1046
00:45:13,079 --> 00:45:19,040
thesis is going to catch on um whether

1047
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:21,640
that's Monero or like um you know rail

1048
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:24,640
gun and knockturn on ethereum that are

1049
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:27,920
hiding balances or

1050
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:30,200
um you allowing you to operate in defi

1051
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,960
privately there there's there's a bunch

1052
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,920
of privacy protocols that I'm really

1053
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:37,359
excited about that I think might catch

1054
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:39,359
some adoption um especially in in like

1055
00:45:37,359 --> 00:45:41,960
the cipher Punk circles the sort of

1056
00:45:39,359 --> 00:45:45,640
lunar Punk circles that are that are

1057
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:46,920
evolving in ethereum right now excuse me

1058
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,920
the other things that I think we're

1059
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:54,599
going to see are um cross chain

1060
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:56,880
decentralized exchanges like run Maya um

1061
00:45:54,599 --> 00:45:59,880
thorchain Maya protocol

1062
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:02,800
Sarai I think these are going to become

1063
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:05,440
not only contenders but but maybe even

1064
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:08,760
replacements for centralized exchanges

1065
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:10,800
or at least I really like I think Joel

1066
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,720
Valenzuela the desert links has been

1067
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:16,359
talking about this uh saying that at

1068
00:46:13,720 --> 00:46:18,800
some point decentralized exchanges are

1069
00:46:16,359 --> 00:46:20,960
going to become the back end to

1070
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,480
centralized exchanges where centralized

1071
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:25,599
exchanges like binance are going to

1072
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:27,319
start to tap these for their liquidity

1073
00:46:25,599 --> 00:46:29,960
um that's a really great thing whether

1074
00:46:27,319 --> 00:46:32,839
Monero is listed on those dexes or not

1075
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:36,760
because Monero will be listed on dexes

1076
00:46:32,839 --> 00:46:38,520
that have pairs that tap into those um

1077
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:43,920
so that's you know one Trend that I'm

1078
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:46,359
really excited for and I guess a third

1079
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:48,040
Trend that I'm looking at is sort of

1080
00:46:46,359 --> 00:46:51,400
like the the return of censorship

1081
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:53,520
resistance as an ideal so vitalic uh

1082
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:56,680
wrote this article released it yesterday

1083
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:58,760
called make ethereum Cipher Punk again

1084
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,880
and that was so encouraging to see I was

1085
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,800
thrilled you know came to the timeline

1086
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,680
saw this it's like I've been trying to

1087
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,680
say this all bare Market we need to

1088
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:11,440
return to the values like crypto is

1089
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:13,520
about censorship resistance um and uh

1090
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,960
and so that that was really exciting I

1091
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,720
think we're going to see that in some

1092
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:21,280
concrete ways so we're starting to see

1093
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:23,480
that in just the the general attitude of

1094
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,880
of developers where they're saying let's

1095
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:28,520
develop censorship resistant protocols

1096
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:31,640
rather than um you know authenticating

1097
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:33,280
with the multisig or or sorry um you

1098
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:36,680
know scroll funds with the

1099
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:38,720
multisig uh or using a centralized price

1100
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,839
feed I think there was a significant

1101
00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:43,800
reaction to real world assets being

1102
00:47:40,839 --> 00:47:48,000
suggested for defi so you know that was

1103
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:50,599
some encouraging um some encouraging

1104
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:52,280
hints that that I think we've seen But

1105
00:47:50,599 --> 00:47:54,160
the number of protocols that I've been

1106
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:57,000
seeing that are calling themselves

1107
00:47:54,160 --> 00:48:01,000
Oracle lists or naming censorship

1108
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:02,640
resistance in their bio has also been um

1109
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,319
you know really encouraging so I think

1110
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,839
we're going to see a lot more protocols

1111
00:48:04,319 --> 00:48:08,720
focused on censorship resistance in in

1112
00:48:06,839 --> 00:48:10,960
defi in

1113
00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:13,640
particular all right good predictions

1114
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:15,200
man I mean uh I think we we've been

1115
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,960
waiting for these things for a while

1116
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,760
right so we think now might finally be

1117
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:22,960
the time where people start to a

1118
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:25,200
Renaissance of of this this crypto

1119
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,720
Anarchist vision of crypto we might we

1120
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:29,319
might

1121
00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:31,480
I I mean I hope so right like we we've I

1122
00:48:29,319 --> 00:48:34,079
think there are some outstanding factors

1123
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:36,200
that that could delay those but um like

1124
00:48:34,079 --> 00:48:40,280
the election in particular like I feel

1125
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:43,079
like people politicians can't let the uh

1126
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:48,040
can't let 2024 be too bad because

1127
00:48:43,079 --> 00:48:51,960
they're trying to get reelected um so so

1128
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:54,440
we might see I I do expect I I do expect

1129
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:56,760
a bull run this year I'm not sure if I

1130
00:48:54,440 --> 00:49:02,720
think bitcoin's going to die double or

1131
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:04,079
if it's going to um you know be a 2017

1132
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:07,839
or a

1133
00:49:04,079 --> 00:49:09,839
2021 um but I do think we're looking at

1134
00:49:07,839 --> 00:49:11,839
at something of a bull market and

1135
00:49:09,839 --> 00:49:14,520
hopefully you know if things do get bad

1136
00:49:11,839 --> 00:49:16,960
if inflation gets really out of hand

1137
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:20,280
this year or um you know some kind of

1138
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:23,079
Black Swan events happen that uh that we

1139
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:26,000
would see crypto as a response to that I

1140
00:49:23,079 --> 00:49:29,240
think um we can be a little more hopeful

1141
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:32,040
of that a little more expectant of that

1142
00:49:29,240 --> 00:49:33,920
because crypto this time you know this

1143
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:37,480
cycle crypto is already in the public

1144
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:39,599
eye people understand what crypto is

1145
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:41,280
they at least understand that it it

1146
00:49:39,599 --> 00:49:46,319
can't be stopped right it hasn't been

1147
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:48,240
stopped yet and um and uh you know and I

1148
00:49:46,319 --> 00:49:50,880
think in general at at least in the

1149
00:49:48,240 --> 00:49:52,680
United States the public is coming

1150
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,240
around to the idea that the government

1151
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:57,680
doesn't have their best interest at

1152
00:49:54,240 --> 00:50:00,240
heart and so as as um Cipher punks and

1153
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:02,119
and crypto anarchists I think it is

1154
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:03,839
probably the right time to start pushing

1155
00:50:02,119 --> 00:50:05,680
the message out to the normies that

1156
00:50:03,839 --> 00:50:07,799
crypto is the solution to a lot of the

1157
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:10,400
problems we have

1158
00:50:07,799 --> 00:50:13,200
today you think uh this year we start to

1159
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:15,160
see some bigger names mentioning Monero

1160
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:17,920
like I'm waiting for people in the in

1161
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:20,480
the in the broader Liberty space to

1162
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,559
start mentioning it more by name I don't

1163
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:25,720
know how if you're tuned into that or t

1164
00:50:22,559 --> 00:50:28,440
you know if you follow that yeah

1165
00:50:25,720 --> 00:50:30,640
libertarian right so yeah yeah I mean I

1166
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,920
mean I'm I'm paying enough attention to

1167
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:35,079
politics that I I could maybe recognize

1168
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:37,960
some of the names of politicians but

1169
00:50:35,079 --> 00:50:40,319
like RFK RFK Jr

1170
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:43,480
right well that would be phenomenal I

1171
00:50:40,319 --> 00:50:48,359
mean if RFK mentioned mentioned Monero

1172
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:50,839
but I I think we yeah do right like uh

1173
00:50:48,359 --> 00:50:52,720
who's is any you do you think that could

1174
00:50:50,839 --> 00:50:55,079
happen in 2024 or even during the

1175
00:50:52,720 --> 00:50:57,119
presidential cycle I do yeah I mean I

1176
00:50:55,079 --> 00:50:58,720
don't know about on the debate stage in

1177
00:50:57,119 --> 00:51:02,280
the presidential cycle I feel like

1178
00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:04,040
monero's a little too nent for that but

1179
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:06,960
I do think we're going to start to hear

1180
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:09,119
it more mentioned um you know I can see

1181
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:12,720
Elon Musk talking about Monero for

1182
00:51:09,119 --> 00:51:14,799
example and he might have already but um

1183
00:51:12,720 --> 00:51:17,520
I think you know people that are really

1184
00:51:14,799 --> 00:51:20,040
attuned to the crypto space all

1185
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:23,000
understand that XMR is like where crypto

1186
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:26,040
is headed um I feel like every Bitcoin

1187
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:28,319
maximalist is secretly also Monero Max

1188
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:30,920
maximalist like they're they're like

1189
00:51:28,319 --> 00:51:32,680
Monero Monero on the street or Bitcoin

1190
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:35,599
on the streets Monero on the sheets kind

1191
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:38,520
of thing like they're they're secretly

1192
00:51:35,599 --> 00:51:41,599
they all have a lot of Monero bags and

1193
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:43,480
they're they're just waiting for um you

1194
00:51:41,599 --> 00:51:45,520
know things to flip at least the Smart

1195
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:47,839
Ones because the old school bitcoiners

1196
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:51,920
for sure right like the ones that got

1197
00:51:47,839 --> 00:51:55,920
into it with that idea of digital cash

1198
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:59,319
yeah and and I think um you know I

1199
00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:01,040
I think uh this is kind of you know on

1200
00:51:59,319 --> 00:52:04,040
the topic of other coins getting

1201
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:06,160
delisted I think there's a good chance

1202
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:09,400
that you know without liquidity without

1203
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:12,000
centralized exchanges Dash zcash some of

1204
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:14,599
these other like privacy coins or coins

1205
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:17,799
with privacy features actually just

1206
00:52:14,599 --> 00:52:20,920
Trend toward zero and those people join

1207
00:52:17,799 --> 00:52:23,480
the Monero Camp um you know maybe not

1208
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:25,480
they're probably still hurt with the you

1209
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:28,079
know the Monero Community can be pretty

1210
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:33,480
harsh on um on the

1211
00:52:28,079 --> 00:52:36,640
non-believers but um I think I think uh

1212
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:39,040
yeah XMR XMR is is likely to catch

1213
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:41,760
significant steam this year just for the

1214
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:43,480
combination of events um particularly

1215
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:46,680
the D

1216
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:49,200
listings so we we talked about how large

1217
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:51,000
the market could be right this said you

1218
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:53,440
know down the line what the total

1219
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:56,400
addressable Market is so why haven't we

1220
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:58,079
seen more speculation than into Monero

1221
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:00,440
is it just because of what whatever

1222
00:52:58,079 --> 00:53:02,200
paper Monero potentially on binance and

1223
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,480
that was controlling the price or do you

1224
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:06,359
think there's some other disconnect

1225
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:08,960
going on there but you know where where

1226
00:53:06,359 --> 00:53:11,200
speculators were staying away from

1227
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:13,319
Monero even though the the value

1228
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:16,720
proposition and the addressable Market

1229
00:53:13,319 --> 00:53:19,920
is is potentially huge yeah I think I

1230
00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:22,720
think it's initially I think it was that

1231
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:25,440
um I think there was speculation built

1232
00:53:22,720 --> 00:53:27,079
in but the kind of people who are specul

1233
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:30,119
are doing that on binance and they're

1234
00:53:27,079 --> 00:53:33,640
not withdrawing Monero so their buys are

1235
00:53:30,119 --> 00:53:35,960
just sold right into by binance with

1236
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:38,200
some Monero that doesn't exist and

1237
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:41,319
because they're not saying let me exit

1238
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:43,079
with this XMR that that purchase doesn't

1239
00:53:41,319 --> 00:53:47,760
have a lasting effect on the price it

1240
00:53:43,079 --> 00:53:50,119
doesn't increase the price floor um the

1241
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,839
and and particularly because that XMR

1242
00:53:50,119 --> 00:53:53,559
that they're buying is not introduced to

1243
00:53:51,839 --> 00:53:58,160
the economy that would that would

1244
00:53:53,559 --> 00:54:01,480
bolster the price from use of XMR um and

1245
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:04,359
more recently I heard from a trading

1246
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:06,880
group that a friend is a part of that

1247
00:54:04,359 --> 00:54:08,559
nobody buys XMR because the price only

1248
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,559
goes down or something like that it's

1249
00:54:08,559 --> 00:54:13,400
like don't speculate on XMR it's not

1250
00:54:10,559 --> 00:54:14,880
worth not worth looking at um so I think

1251
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,839
that's going to be

1252
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:19,680
a I don't know if that's going to be a

1253
00:54:16,839 --> 00:54:21,799
hurdle to overcome um I I kind of think

1254
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:25,200
Monero is gonna gonna do that

1255
00:54:21,799 --> 00:54:27,000
automatically and um you know now that

1256
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:29,960
now that exchanges are going to delist

1257
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:32,680
it I do expect it to be more volatile

1258
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:35,400
and think people are going to gradually

1259
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:36,880
tune into that and realize that XMR

1260
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:39,960
price Discovery will look a little

1261
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:42,040
different than it has in the past few

1262
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,839
years yeah like we were saying before

1263
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,720
you know things like Sarai are gonna

1264
00:54:43,839 --> 00:54:48,799
potentially play a tremendous role here

1265
00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:52,000
if if that's if that's super slick and

1266
00:54:48,799 --> 00:54:55,400
usable um I could see

1267
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:58,480
people turning to that as a way to just

1268
00:54:55,400 --> 00:55:00,280
you know no kyc it's not that really

1269
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,839
that hard any harder to use than a

1270
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:05,079
centralized exchange I'm already getting

1271
00:55:02,839 --> 00:55:06,520
my my Bitcoin or whatever or Litecoin

1272
00:55:05,079 --> 00:55:07,920
here on centralized exchange and I'll

1273
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:12,680
have to do a click of a button I could

1274
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:15,160
have some anonymously obtained Manero um

1275
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:18,079
we might start to that hopefully is

1276
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:21,160
where it picks up right yeah I mean and

1277
00:55:18,079 --> 00:55:24,640
the the extra the extra feature here the

1278
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:29,280
extra use case for XMR is as a pass

1279
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:31,760
through so if people really want to um

1280
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:34,079
you know preserve privacy in their

1281
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:37,480
crypto trading they're going to be

1282
00:55:34,079 --> 00:55:41,200
trading through Sarai or through haveno

1283
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:43,079
or one of these other dexes to keep that

1284
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:46,880
right to to retain that right to privacy

1285
00:55:43,079 --> 00:55:49,280
for themselves so XMR in that case is

1286
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:51,839
used in this particular way it might be

1287
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:53,440
used a lot pretty frequently but that's

1288
00:55:51,839 --> 00:55:55,799
going to factor into the equation of

1289
00:55:53,440 --> 00:56:00,680
exchange as well the MV equals PQ there

1290
00:55:55,799 --> 00:56:03,319
is like the um value of the currency is

1291
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:04,640
going to you know be proportional to the

1292
00:56:03,319 --> 00:56:06,400
amount of funds people want to move

1293
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:08,520
through it divided by how quickly

1294
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:11,880
they're doing that so that becomes an

1295
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:14,160
additional factor to the value the base

1296
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:17,119
value the price floor of

1297
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:20,039
XMR um just by having this additional

1298
00:56:17,119 --> 00:56:22,440
Market to address so it's not just going

1299
00:56:20,039 --> 00:56:25,200
to be used as a medium of exchange but

1300
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:28,000
now with something like a decentralized

1301
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:30,200
exchange it becomes a lot easier to use

1302
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:32,599
XMR to provide privacy for your other

1303
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:32,599
crypto

1304
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:38,880
trades yeah that's that's an interesting

1305
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:40,760
thought right so the the the addressable

1306
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,880
the market will go up much more right

1307
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:44,760
the size of the market but then also the

1308
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:47,000
amount of transactions being made right

1309
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,559
so that but that do they cancel each

1310
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:50,559
other out usually in instant like

1311
00:56:48,559 --> 00:56:52,359
instance like that or what's a way of

1312
00:56:50,559 --> 00:56:55,920
like kind of logically thinking about

1313
00:56:52,359 --> 00:56:59,079
that yeah so I guess I would I would um

1314
00:56:55,920 --> 00:57:01,520
because the higher higher the V right

1315
00:56:59,079 --> 00:57:04,400
the price will drop right if there's

1316
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:07,000
more right right and so in this case you

1317
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:10,839
have two components of the price you've

1318
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:12,760
got the uh the amount of value that XMR

1319
00:57:10,839 --> 00:57:15,559
acru from its use as a medium of

1320
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:17,920
Exchange in uh on let's say dark net

1321
00:57:15,559 --> 00:57:21,240
markets and then you've also got the

1322
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:23,799
value that it accru from the trades that

1323
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:26,920
are happening on decentralized exchanges

1324
00:57:23,799 --> 00:57:29,039
where people are um trading through

1325
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:31,880
Sarai or trading through jino and then

1326
00:57:29,039 --> 00:57:34,799
trading back to get their coins clean

1327
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:37,480
with no observable history and right

1328
00:57:34,799 --> 00:57:39,520
instead of using Samurai Wasabi or

1329
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:41,960
whatever else they're just using this

1330
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:43,559
this Dex to go into Monero and out maybe

1331
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:46,160
take Bitcoin all the way out now they

1332
00:57:43,559 --> 00:57:48,400
have you know quote unquote clean clean

1333
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:50,359
Bitcoin right right and so there's

1334
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:52,119
there's an upper I guess uh yeah there's

1335
00:57:50,359 --> 00:57:54,319
an upper limit on the velocity there

1336
00:57:52,119 --> 00:57:55,520
that's determined by at least the 40

1337
00:57:54,319 --> 00:57:58,480
minutes that it's going to take to

1338
00:57:55,520 --> 00:58:00,359
unlock all of the funds from Trading

1339
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:03,280
through Monero and back right you've got

1340
00:58:00,359 --> 00:58:05,559
that 20 minute cool down time in uh how

1341
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:09,280
much you know how quickly someone can

1342
00:58:05,559 --> 00:58:14,520
trade a past utxo um or a recent a

1343
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:16,760
recent utxo so um I think that is those

1344
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:19,319
two are additive right it's not just

1345
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,880
that um it's not that the velocity of

1346
00:58:19,319 --> 00:58:22,520
the Second Use case would affect the

1347
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:24,440
velocity of the first it's just that the

1348
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:25,480
amount of value that occurs the XMR

1349
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:29,280
token

1350
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:29,280
it gets combined from both of those use

1351
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:37,359
cases awesome man any any anything else

1352
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:41,119
you want to bring up with regards to uh

1353
00:58:37,359 --> 00:58:42,599
this topic of Monero utility value

1354
00:58:41,119 --> 00:58:44,440
certainly a topic that everybody is

1355
00:58:42,599 --> 00:58:46,119
interested in right so in in Monero land

1356
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:48,839
everybody's like you know we we ignore

1357
00:58:46,119 --> 00:58:51,440
price whatever but obviously it's price

1358
00:58:48,839 --> 00:58:53,079
is is related to utility and we're all

1359
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:55,559
interested in utility I don't think

1360
00:58:53,079 --> 00:58:57,480
anybody doesn't want to see

1361
00:58:55,559 --> 00:58:59,400
usefulness go up right uh that's what

1362
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:02,520
we're all in it for to opt out build a

1363
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:05,160
circular economy and just use Monero for

1364
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:07,319
everything right right yeah I guess the

1365
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:09,079
the final thing that I would share is

1366
00:59:07,319 --> 00:59:11,640
the most common misconception that I

1367
00:59:09,079 --> 00:59:14,000
hear from people who are fans of

1368
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:17,160
cryptocurrencies to use in everyday life

1369
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:20,200
is if you if you are spending it then

1370
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:22,559
it's not actually auring value or you

1371
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:28,200
know this this might be a legacy thought

1372
00:59:22,559 --> 00:59:31,720
from the uh the BTC maximalists but it

1373
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:34,599
is if you are spending it it's actually

1374
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:37,079
acur more value than if you're just

1375
00:59:34,599 --> 00:59:39,599
holding it by holding a currency you're

1376
00:59:37,079 --> 00:59:42,119
decreasing the circulating Supply the

1377
00:59:39,599 --> 00:59:46,880
circulating Supply is factored into the

1378
00:59:42,119 --> 00:59:50,000
price per coin but by spending it if you

1379
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:51,880
actually need to spend it on you know to

1380
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:54,640
get the goods that you're buying or if

1381
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:56,160
you choose you know with a with firm

1382
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:58,559
principles you say I want to be someone

1383
00:59:56,160 --> 01:00:00,280
who contributes to the crypto economy

1384
00:59:58,559 --> 01:00:02,440
and you're choosing to use a

1385
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:04,720
cryptocurrency every time you purchase

1386
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:06,880
it to buy something else you are

1387
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:09,359
actually increasing the price and yes

1388
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:11,359
that decreases later but in the time in

1389
01:00:09,359 --> 01:00:14,599
between there's some value that actually

1390
01:00:11,359 --> 01:00:18,400
acrs to the token and as people do that

1391
01:00:14,599 --> 01:00:21,559
in aggregate they are acing value to a

1392
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:23,720
currency so um you know go spend your

1393
01:00:21,559 --> 01:00:25,680
Monero like don't just don't just hoard

1394
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:28,119
it you can spend it and you will still

1395
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:29,599
be acre value to XMR and keeping the

1396
01:00:28,119 --> 01:00:32,839
price

1397
01:00:29,599 --> 01:00:35,480
High that's a great way of looking at it

1398
01:00:32,839 --> 01:00:39,160
man um yeah any anything else you want

1399
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:40,680
to throw out there uh just uh I guess

1400
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:43,319
you know if you guys find this

1401
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:45,160
interesting follow um you can check out

1402
01:00:43,319 --> 01:00:48,160
all of my history of my insights on eats

1403
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:51,640
sleep crypto.com we've got token

1404
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:55,160
Dynamics Twitter is token Dynamics I'm

1405
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:56,799
official ESC and um keep keep up with

1406
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,760
all the projects that we're working on

1407
01:00:56,799 --> 01:01:00,680
putting out helping and if you're

1408
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:02,920
interested in uh if anybody out there is

1409
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:05,960
building something that's infrastructure

1410
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:08,160
for privacy or infrastructure for crypto

1411
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:11,440
in general defi protocols anything

1412
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:13,400
that's helping XMR that needs a token

1413
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:15,799
send me a message I'd be happy to help

1414
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:17,160
you and um you know we we'd be happy to

1415
01:01:15,799 --> 01:01:19,920
work with you at token

1416
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:21,359
Dynamics very cool man and uh before we

1417
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:24,039
jumped on today we were talking about

1418
01:01:21,359 --> 01:01:25,680
monotop and stuff would be cool to see

1419
01:01:24,039 --> 01:01:28,200
you at the next one would be I would

1420
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:29,799
love to be there yeah this would be um

1421
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:32,559
you know it would be phenomenal to to

1422
01:01:29,799 --> 01:01:34,760
meet all the other Monero fans and uh

1423
01:01:32,559 --> 01:01:37,280
and discuss these these you know weighty

1424
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:39,240
important issues I think these are um my

1425
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:41,079
favorite talks so thanks so much Douglas

1426
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:43,280
for having me on today it's been a

1427
01:01:41,079 --> 01:01:46,160
pleasure for sure for sure and I know

1428
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:48,960
you mentioned Puerto Rico as a as a

1429
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:50,880
potential location it's tempting it's

1430
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:53,160
very tempting we're probably we're

1431
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:55,119
probably going to do it in buen aurus in

1432
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:56,760
Argentina awesome

1433
01:01:55,119 --> 01:01:58,359
um but there are some things that are

1434
01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:02,400
holding us back from doing like it's

1435
01:01:58,359 --> 01:02:05,119
it's far it's far for us yeah but I mean

1436
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:06,599
is more it would be very accessible uh

1437
01:02:05,119 --> 01:02:08,319
what we liked about Mexico City was

1438
01:02:06,599 --> 01:02:11,760
super accessible right especially with

1439
01:02:08,319 --> 01:02:16,680
visas Puerto Rico not as good as Mexico

1440
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:18,520
City yeah yeah definitely yeah I'm I'm a

1441
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:20,440
big fan of all those places and I think

1442
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:24,480
this year Argentina makes a lot of sense

1443
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:27,960
because of M so for sure yeah exciting

1444
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:29,559
yeah yeah yeah all right buddy uh thank

1445
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:31,839
you so much it was a pleasure meeting

1446
01:02:29,559 --> 01:02:33,839
you likewise thanks so much for having

1447
01:02:31,839 --> 01:02:36,039
me happy new happy New Year and

1448
01:02:33,839 --> 01:02:37,960
hopefully the you know the next time we

1449
01:02:36,039 --> 01:02:39,880
we touch base we have you on it'll be

1450
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:42,960
it'll be a whole new Monero world right

1451
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:45,960
we'll be like oh wow I'd love that yeah

1452
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:48,640
maybe um when Sarai comes out Launches

1453
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:51,160
on net that'd be that'd be phenomenal to

1454
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:54,359
Circle back around then yeah anytime man

1455
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:58,200
you let me know cool thanks so much yeah

1456
01:02:54,359 --> 01:03:00,400
yeah man cheers thank you thank you for

1457
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:02,680
joining us on this week's episode we

1458
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:04,359
release new episodes every week you can

1459
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:08,000
find And subscribe to our show on

1460
01:03:04,359 --> 01:03:10,400
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1461
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:12,319
or wherever you listen to podcast go to

1462
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,119
Monero talk. live to subscribe for a

1463
01:03:12,319 --> 01:03:16,480
full list of places where you can watch

1464
01:03:14,119 --> 01:03:19,200
and listen if you want to interact with

1465
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:21,319
us guests or other podcast listeners you

1466
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:23,480
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1467
01:03:21,319 --> 01:03:25,319
leave us a review on iTunes it helps

1468
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:27,720
people find the show and we are always

1469
01:03:25,319 --> 01:03:31,559
happy to read them so thanks so much and

1470
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:31,559
we look forward to being back next

1471
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:42,000
week