Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast about helping online brands to build a better e-commerce growth engine, with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. Jon: It's often really difficult to talk about e-commerce business and driving traffic with at least not thinking about Amazon. So, Amazon is responsible for over 50% of online purchases. We all know it, and we all purchase most of our household goods on Amazon, and I'm guessing that lots of other households do as well. Now, especially over the pandemic in 2020, we've seen Amazon really just kind of skyrocket along with all other e-commerce. And it's led me to really give some thought to how do you get promoted on Amazon? How do you find new customers on Amazon? Do you run ads? How do you drive traffic to and from Amazon? And luckily Ryan and the folks in his team at Logical Position do a lot with Amazon. And I've been hearing a lot more about it over the last couple of years. So, it seemed like a really good opportunity to pick Ryan's brain about Amazon and how and why to drive traffic to it. Would you say, sound like a good topic, Ryan? Ryan: Yeah. John, I'm extremely excited about Amazon. It's newer, as far as an advertising platform. I spend a lot of my own money on it with some of my brands and I find it fascinating, being in the quick evolving space that Amazon is, and also just the fire hose of sales that it can provide if done right. It's a phenomenal platform, and I've really been enjoying playing with it and learning it over the last couple of years. Jon: That's great. So, let's just start high level as usual, right? Give us a really brief overview of Amazon ads. What are they for? How do they work? How do you pay for them? Those types of things. Ryan: As you would expect, if you're paying for ads on Amazon, they show in the Amazon platform. So, whether that's on the website or that's in the app itself, they show as you search for ads on Amazon. And so, most people that are familiar with Google ads and Google shopping, you're going to recognize a lot of the ad set types and a lot of the similarities inside the Amazon ads piece, I think they're calling it Amazon Advertising now, once you're in seller central. But generally you get on Amazon and you search for a product, there's going to be a list of sponsored products and then the organic products, and it's all in the same feed. You can click on the image, it takes you to product page. So, for all intents and purposes, really similar to Google shopping. Pay for them the same way you do Google ads on a cost per click basis, and you can either pay with them on a credit card or from the earnings you have on Amazon. And so, I've done both to see how both works and what I like about both, I personally liked credit card miles, so I put it on a credit card. Jon: Yeah. Might as well get that benefit. Ryan: Yeah. And I would say most brands just need to think about Amazon in a similar way about Google ads, generally. Jon: Are there any differences? Now that you've brought up Google, it does seem very, very similar to me. Right? You pay for your position in the listings. You get bumped up to the top of the list because you're advertising, as opposed to the organic listings. What are the differences? It sounds to me like they're all very, very similar. What are the differences? Ryan: So, there aren't any text ads on Amazon yet, where you can actually just write a text ad relating to this search query. So, that's not there. Maybe it is at some point. Jon: So, they're all product focused is what I'm hearing? Ryan: All product focused. And it tends to be mainly a function of the platform itself. People are on Amazon looking for products. There are different types of companies on Amazon. So, there are ad sets reserved for different types of companies. On Google ads, generally everybody can do the same thing. There may be some alphas or betas in every platform, including Amazon, but if you're a registered brand, which means you have a trademark and it's on your product that you're selling on Amazon, you get access to different types of ads. And so, you can get sponsored brands, which means there's a banner at the top of a search results page that talks about your brand and has your name, and then maybe some of the products that you sell. And then you can also do video ads as a registered brand. As you scroll through the feed, there'll be videos that can play silently or with sound depending on what the settings that person has, but pretty powerful there. And I assume there's going to be some additional benefits in ad sets, constantly coming in and out of Amazon for brands only. So, if you're a retailer, even if you have a trademark, like if I'm thinking about let's take Nordstrom, most people know Nordstrom. Nordstrom has a trademark on Nordstrom. They could technically get a brand registry on Amazon, but they could only sell the products or have the brand registry on on the Nordstrom branded products. And they couldn't say, "Okay, well we sell Nike shoes. So, we're also going to use the brand ads to sell the Nike shoes on our Amazon page." Jon: Got it, I see. Ryan: But what is unique is that, on product pages, you can put ads. So, not only as people are searching for it, but if there's very similar products where your competitors have a product, you can put your product ad on that product page. And most people on Amazon are probably seeing these similar products, amazon will have similar products and then there'll be a sponsored similar products page where people also purchased, or people looked at this, bought this. And some of those are sponsored, some of organic. That is a very big difference between Amazon and Google. Because I have yet to find one of my competitors that allows me to put my ad on their website, once they've brought traffic from Google to their website. Jon: Now, is this different from the Amazon's Choice that we see a lot? Is that a sponsorship that you pay a little bit more for? Ryan: I mean, there's probably some conspiracy theorists out there. Jon: That's why I'm asking. Ryan: Yes. There's probably certain things you can be doing with Amazon that can increase your chances. Often in my industry, like Joyful Dirt organic fertilizer, I will find that often the vendor central products are Amazon's Choice more often than not. Jon: Okay. Ryan: And that's also like Miracle Gro, right? They're massive, so I understand that and they sell direct on Amazon and Amazon has a tremendous volume, they sell a ton. Amazon's Choice is going to basically be on the data that Amazon seeing, though. Jon: I see. Ryan: And if they're seeing a high volume of this product selling for this search, it's going to become Amazon's Choice. I've got it for a few and then it comes off and I can really see a bump on sales when you do get the Amazon's Choice, but you can't go into Amazon ads and be like, "Oh, I'm going to pay for the Amazon Choice badge today." Because that sounds like fun. Jon: I wondered how much of that is sponsored, but it sounds like it's not necessarily the best product. It's what Amazon has deemed as the best for them. Ryan: Exactly. Amazon is a for-profit business, obviously, and it's their platform and they're going to make money. And they're going to emphasize products, generally, that are making them more money. There's nothing that Amazon has ever put out that says we are trying to get the best possible product to the searcher. Early on with Google, it was like, "We're going to be good people and do good." I forget exactly what their model was. Jon: Do no harm, or something like that. Ryan: Yeah. Do no harm. Amazon's not put that out. They've been very clear from the beginning. Bezos is out there to make money, which is perfectly all right. He built a phenomenal platform for getting products into consumers' hands. What is another big, unique thing that brands and retail, anybody advertising on Amazon needs to be aware of though, is that because Amazon was not a search engine first, and they weren't providing you results without being paid, organic and paid ads work together to give you a rank for your product in the space. And so, the more sales you drive with ads, generally the higher you're going to rank organically. Because you're overall selling more stuff and Amazon's making more money. And so, while on Google, I do believe that there's people that will debate me, but I do believe that you can't pay Google to get rankings organically. They have kept those various separate silos. There's an algorithm for organic that doesn't take into account paid ads or how much you're spending with Google. That part is very, very separate. I've seen it with Google, and I believe that. Amazon, nope. They are the same. You can buy rankings on Amazon by spending money. You have to convert well, and there's a lot of metrics that are in there besides just paying for ads. Because you can pay for ads, but if you're not making Amazon sales, you're not going to raise your rank really, because people aren't actually buying. Jon: So, the ranking then is totally on the number of sales. And so, since it's on the number of sales, if you were spending money, there's a very good chance that you're going to get more sales, which then helps you rank higher? Ryan: Generally, but it is still a black box to a degree. And Amazon's never come out and said exactly what goes into that black box, beside how these products rank. Jon: Okay. Ryan: We see instances of different things, but we know the conversion rate goes into it, click through rate from the homepage. I mean, Amazon makes more money from the fees you pay Amazon than it does from the ad CPCs that people pay Amazon. Jon: Right. Ryan: And so, Amazon's incentive is more along, "We want to sell more products because we make money on that." They also make money on the ads. So, they have a lot of ways that they are making money in this space. Generally though, increasing sales, no matter if organic or ads is going to make sense for you. Jon: So, let me ask you this. I'm sure there's other ways that they differ, but in Google, it's purely a search engine. I wonder how much of a search engine has Amazon become for products, right? Are people going there and doing a search on different terms to just find a product, to start their search? Do you feel like people are using that as a shopping search engine? Ryan: I'm sure a lot of people are. But I still think that Google's ecosystem at this point, at least from my experience and the way I use it, it's better for product discovery and research. Amazon is better if I know more of what I want and I've done some of that research on Google. Because Amazon is, I don't know how to put it as eloquent as I could probably, but if I'm searching for an iPhone case, there's just hundreds and hundreds of iPhone cases, and I've got to go into each one, potentially thousands, actually. I have to go into each one and see what the reviews are and what people think about it. They're getting a little bit better with bringing in external content. You'll see this more and more around not only Amazon's Choice, which is a big one that's helping, but also they'll have influencer articles that'll say the Top Five iPhone Cases for the iPhone 12. And you can click on that and it'll give you, inside Amazon's platform, the ones they are. But it's still a Google. I can go see, okay, there's going to be an article, towards the top of the organic, that says the top 10 iPhone cases side by side, and what I liked about this and what I didn't like about that one. I think Amazon is getting better and better, but I think Google is still there for discovery. Jon: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So, tell me a little bit more, I know we've talked in the past about just the return on ad spend differences between Amazon and Google. I've heard Michael and your team talk about that before, too. Ryan: Yes, Mike and I, we do travel. We do like going out. And so we talk a lot about TACoS on Amazon. And so, then we go out and have to have tacos. But you know, everybody in the digital marketing world is focused on a term called ROAS, at least the e-commerce world, your return on ad spend. So, it's the revenue you've driven from marketing divided by how much money you spent to get there. And so, then you align that with your average margin of the product, decide about profit and loss. And so, we've just done that for years. I don't even think about it, and I can do ROAS calculations and decide what I should be at or what a brand could or should be at, or where they're losing money. Amazon changed it all when they started their platform and it drove me crazy because they talk about average cost of sale, ACOS. And it actually makes a lot more sense from a marketing perspective, but just the simple change of flipping the equation to, ACOS is your average cost of sale. That's your marketing dollars divided by your sale rather than your sales volume divided by marketing dollars. So, flipping that equation, lets me see, "Okay, if I'm spending 25 cents for a dollar of revenue, then I'm at a 25% cost of goods sold." If my margin is greater than 25% of my products, I can very easily just see, "Okay, I can spend up to 40%, 40 cents for a dollar." So, ACOS is technically much easier probably for new advertisers, but for people that have been stuck in the ROAS game with Google and Microsoft and Facebook for over a decade now, flipping that is just not as intuitive yet for me. Jon: Do they also report on ROAS or not? Ryan: They do, recently. Because they had so many people complaining like, "Well, I need to know what my ROAS is. I'm used to getting a three X." And well, honestly, you can convert an ACOS to ROAS real easily, but Amazon put it in the platform now, so you can flip it on and off. And I think initially in my account, it went to ROAS first and it started throwing me off because I was so used to going into the Amazon and thinking ACOS. But then there's an interesting one too, the TACoS I mentioned, that Mike and I of eat after Amazon events. It's an important metric on Amazon because it's the total cost of sale. The total average cost of sale, where you're taking your total sales for that product divided by your cost of marketing. So, your marketing may be breakeven for example, on marketing spend and the marketing sales. But by spending to break even there, you're actually also increasing your organic sales. And so, it's all running together. We do very similar things on Google, where you're spending in Google shopping and that spend in non-brand Google shopping will actually increase your organic traffic and organic sales on the website. Jon: Right. Okay. Ryan: It's not because your Google organic ranking is increasing. It's just because of how Google uses it, or people use the Google system, basically. Discovery on shopping research, come back and buy organically and direct. Amazon is direct correlation. The more aggressive you get on marketing. Well, yeah, if you do it right. I'll say that the more aggressive you get on marketing, the higher your sales volume will be, even beyond your marketing, spend. Jon: ACOS, TACoS. I guess it sounds like we need to add two more acronyms to the digital marketers toolbox here. But I'm wondering, does Amazon have those metrics that no one else is really talking about as a means of making it hard to compare? I mean, I know I'm usually the skeptic on this show, in the sense that I'm the one who who's always asking the questions as if these big, big brands are out to get us as marketers. But really, I mean, I just look at that and I say, "Man, that's two more metrics that I can't compare against the other marketing activities I'm doing." And I could see why people are fighting to want ROAS, right. Ryan: I mean, it helps put your marketing in an apples to apples number, but you really shouldn't be looking at Amazon in the same way you're looking at Google. And I think a lot of companies, if they start getting a ROAS number, are going to start looking at it as, "Oh, Amazon's this, Google's this, they're the same thing, I'm getting customers, I'm getting sales. Done, same exact thing." And so, I actually prefer when we have to switch gears between Google and Amazon, and look at TACoS versus ROAS, or ACOS versus ROAS, because it has a change in mental appearance, "What am I actually thinking about here on Amazon?" And that subtle little change forces me to say, "Okay, at the end of the day, Amazon is generating sales for my business, but those are not my customers." I do not get customers out of that. Amazon gets customers, I get product sales. And so, I think for too long, people have been looking at Amazon as an extension of Google or a way to get customers. Amazon does not care if that customer ever buys your product again, it's the same thing as if you sold it at Nordstrom, Nordstrom will get you sales. They can move a lot of volume for your brand. But at the end of the day, that is a Nordstrom customer getting Nordstrom points so that they can go get a glass of champagne and shop at special times because they built up their Nordstrom points. Amazon, similarly. People are loyal to Amazon. Don't hear that I don't like Amazon. It's just that I don't get the customer email. I don't get a way to really nurture these customers through. There are some things you can do if you have a replenishable product with subscriptions and things like that. But at the end of the day, Amazon is not specifically sending messaging to the people that bought your product to buy other products within your product line or buy your product again. Jon: Yeah. This must be why I see so many inserts when it's seller fulfilled about, "Come leave a review, register." Do those types of things. Yeah. Ryan: Which is illegal. Jon: Yeah. Ryan: It's against Amazon policies. Jon: But you still see it, right? Ryan: Yeah. Jon: The other thing is here is we had a great episode kind of about this, about the halo effect of that. And I think we expanded for a half hour, if not more on just that point. So, if you're listening to this and you're interested in that halo effect Ryan was just talking about with how a sale or an ad you're running on Google leads to more than just sales. I think it's an interesting approach to be looking at. Ryan: Well, at least ad sales, but sales and other channels within your Google analytics. And so, it's powerful to dive deeper than just what Google ads is telling you. Jon: Well, and not only that, but I also mean you could get an email address, right? You have the opportunity to do more than just make a sale that could eventually lead to a sale, and you have the opportunity to get a customer lifetime value, not just that original sale. So, that was really my point there. So, who should be advertising on Amazon? So, we talked about what it means and you know how you can do it. Should everyone just advertise, whoever's selling on Amazon, should they advertise? Is it worth it? Ryan: I mean, I think so. I mean, if you're willing to put your products on Amazon, why don't you want to get more eyeballs on your products and sell more products? It also could tell you quicker if that product is viable on Amazon, if you can compete on that product on Amazon. I mean, if you just throw a new product that's never been on Amazon before, like a brand new ASEN. In fact, I'm putting one up next week on for my company. Amazon has no data around that. Just like if you throw a product up or a website up on Google, you're not instantly just going to start getting traffic because you put a website up and Google indexed it. You're stuck down a thousand pages deep probably, because you're most likely late to the game on Google for that particular product or service. And so, same way on Amazon, you need traffic to that product page to help optimize it. And I think Jon, at the end of the day, you're going to have a CRO product on Amazon. I don't know what it looks like, maybe you're already doing it, but there is optimization on product pages on Amazon. And you need to know that, "Okay, if I have the title here, what does that do? If I put these bullet points here?" And there's a lot, you can do a lot of research on Google for listing on Amazon, but there's a lot of very similar pieces from different authors around what your listing should look like. The important things to have in there. How to say certain things that have been proven to work. And it's just like all other digital marketing and all the other sales on the internet, you need to test and measure and track everything. Thankfully, when I got on to Amazon, I'd been in the digital marketing space for long enough that I knew, "Okay, I don't know anything. And therefore I have to make my educated guesses about what I think is going to be right. And then we're going to track it." And be like, "Okay, I did this. We did well. Where can I potentially improve this?" Learning from Jon, I can't test everything all at once because I won't know what actually caused it to work. So, when I'm on my product page, okay, I'm going to change my images this week. How did that impact conversion rate from the same traffic I was sending to my page? If it's moving the needle and I've got enough traffic, I can make a quick hypothesis and say, "Yes, it worked." Or "No, I'm not seeing that." And I probably can make a gut decision quicker than most, because I've seen so much data. I may not have enough data to make official decisions according to Jon. But it's just me being impatient. Jon: You're learning. Ryan: I am. At some point I will listen to Jon Moore. Jon: You know, well, we've talked about this on the show several times, but it took me losing hundreds of dollars, some thousands of dollars on Google ads before I listened to you. Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, the podcast focused on e-commerce growth. Your hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with e-commerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers. Ryan Garrow of Logical Position, a digital marketing agency offering pay-per-click management, search engine optimization, and website design services to brands of all sizes. If you find this podcast helpful, please help us out by leaving a review on Apple podcasts and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you. Jon: Okay. So, it sounds to me like every company should be on Amazon. Ryan: Well, every company should advertise if you're on Amazon, I'll say that. But I don't think every company should be on Amazon. Any company can get on Amazon. And so, it's very simple. It's not complicated. I'm setting up an Amazon account, giving them I think, 30 bucks a month to start selling. But I also advocate for probably less companies being on Amazon that are choosing to be there. A lot of my logic comes down to, if you're selling the same exact product as everybody else, you have no advantage on the same platform. If you're on Google, you can have a different website. You can have a different product mix. And when they go to that product page and product suggestions, because you control the experience on the site, once they come off of Google. So, if everything else is equal and you have the same price point and you get the Google shopping click, there's a lot of benefit to your brand because you now know something about the customer and you can do stuff with that. Either they convert or you can re-market to them, or you can build lists around them. There's a lot you can do, the complexities are quite a bit. On Amazon, if you and I are both selling Joyful Dirt, we both have a product page. We're probably going to the same product page, honestly, that the brand has created. And then it becomes just a, "Who's winning the buy box." Conversation, which comes down to pricing and shipping. If you can't compete on those things, then you're not going to win the buy box, you're not going to get any sales. If you are competing on that and you're lowering your price, you are lowering your margin on that, specifically for sales and Amazon generally takes around 15% of that sale. So, if you figure average retail or 35% margin, you're going to give up 40% of your margin just to be on Google and then your net price, you're going to have to advertise. You have to say, okay, 40% of my margin has gone to Google just to sell on Google. Now I have to advertise to get people. And I can only advertise if I'm winning the buy box. So, pricing is really important. There's automated pricing systems all over the place. Jon: Yeah. Ryan: They can help you try to win the buy box. So, generally retailers have a really tough go on Amazon. And because of how I see Amazon as a retailer, I think that you ought to compete on Amazon's platform, almost. I mean, there's nothing stopping Amazon from going to your supplier or manufacturer to sell that product. And we've had that happen to some of our retailers years at Tiki-re, before Logical Position. We had a big advertiser on Google. I think he was spending 50 or 60 grand a month selling meat slicing stuff, and said, "Oh, my gosh. I'm doing so well on Amazon. We're cutting back Google spend because Amazon is just blowing up. Inventory is going to Amazon and just selling out immediately." Amazon went to a his supplier, bought all his product at much lower price and started selling it at lower than his cost. So, he just couldn't compete. And because he pulled so hard back out of Google, he just couldn't get back up and running. It was very, very difficult. Jon: Yeah, that's the horror story that you hear from people about Amazon quite often. But it doesn't happen as often as I think the stories make it out to be. Ryan: I don't think so either. Jon: But it's one of those stories you hear, just like Google people saying I pay for results listings on Google. It's like, yeah, probably not. Generally, what advice would you give brands looking at Amazon as we kind of round out the questions today? I'm sure you've got some high level or even great tactics people should be thinking about. Ryan: Yeah. So again, advertisers, big question mark whether I would advocate for that. I'd have to dig the data. But if you have a trademark on your name and it's on your package, you can get a brand registry on Amazon. That is almost across the board, I would advocate for that company to be selling on Amazon. Jon: Okay. Ryan: You can control, a lot of times, who's going to sell the product on Amazon, by your retailer agreements. You have the brand registry, so you are the brand. You have exclusive ad sets that are only available to you. And once you're on there, you can't be timid. And this is where I think too many brands make a mistake on Amazon. They just want to kind of dip a toe, see if it works, and try to scale it. Yes. I agree generally with that principle, but understanding that Amazon was built by a very aggressive human and a lot of their systems are aggressive. And by being aggressive, generally you can get rewarded. And I feel like, Jon, this is a feeling that has no data around it, but it feels to me like brands or business owners that are going into Amazon kind of timid, are very scared of Amazon. Or they've been taught to fear it. And they've always come in like, "Oh my gosh, Amazon. They're going to find a way to screw me." There's nothing in Amazon's system or in any of their agreements that says they are your friend, and they are here specifically to grow your brand. Jon: It's no different than Walmart, right? Same thing. Ryan: Exactly. Jon: You go to Walmart, you want to help sell your product. They put you in a room, and they just hammer out an agreement and they just keep coming back to you, "It needs to be lower priced, and needs to be lower priced." Because their number one thing is to have the lowest price. And you know that going in, that's what's going to happen. They're going to expect you to have it lower there than anywhere else. And so, it's no different with Amazon, right? They want you to play by their rules and they it's their platform and their audience. So, they want you to do what's best for Amazon. And I can respect that. Ryan: Me too. I would probably be doing the same thing. Don't fear Amazon, I think. And that's because a lot of people just don't know what they don't know. There is that fear piece in there. And so, educate yourself, go talk to an expert on it. It doesn't have to be me, but find somebody that's done something on Amazon before to help talk through their experience, if you haven't done it on Amazon and you're really scared of it. Because I was made to be afraid of Amazon early on in the e-commerce world. Google was like, "Amazon's dumb. Why would anybody do that? It's not great. They're just trying to get rid of and screw over all the retailers. Google's where it's at." And I drank the juice for a few years. And so, a couple of years ago I was like, "You know what? Doesn't matter, Amazon is selling a lot of stuff and I want to win more than I fear Amazon. So, I'm going to go figure it out." Don't fear it. I think there's a tremendous upside, but you're going to have to track data and be willing to pivot and change directions very, very quickly. Because Amazon is a younger ads platform and a younger platform in general than Google or just e-commerce on the web. And so, it's going to change quick and there's going to be things that, you're going to get a message in your Amazon box that says, "Hey, you can't do that." I was like, "I didn't even know I was breaking a rule." "Yeah. It's a new rule we created last week, don't do that." Okay, not doing that. And then, there's going to be new ads that come up because it is a younger platform. I found out the value of video ads on Amazon. I originally thought, "That's stupid, I don't have any good video content to put up there." And Micah, who works with me on the Amazon stuff, was like, "Just do it. You're going to put a video up and it's going to be great." And I'm like, "Fine. All right, Micah, you are smarter than me. I agree to it.If I was right though, I'm going to rub it in your face." And he was right. It is the best performing ad for our brand right now. It's crushing it. Jon: I don't want to go up against Micah when it comes to Amazon. Anything Amazon, I'll do whatever he tells me to do. Ryan: Yeah. If I can take down Miracle Gro, it's because of Micah. Yeah. If I don't show up to a meeting or a podcast, then Miracle Gro might've found me. But yeah. So, test constantly. I mean, I track everything. I have an Excel sheet back to the first day I started spending money on Amazon a couple of years ago. I know every change I made to my product pages, changes we made to Amazon ads, changes that Amazon made when competitors started coming against me in certain areas. I notated that. So I could say, "Hey, I want to go put my product on their product page aggressively. I want to target their brand terms. What does that do?" And then, I even spent some of my money to send traffic to Amazon and that freaks out a lot of brand owners. They're like, "I don't have full, transparent attribution on it." I have some, you can get an attribution beta with Amazon. But I'll spend some money on Google to send traffic to Amazon to get conversions, because I know that that ecosystem wants sales, and the more sales I can feed it, the more that ecosystem is going to like me and my brand. Jon: That's great. Yeah. That's a good idea. I mean, because like you said, it's all about getting listed higher, and that means you have to have more sales. So, there's ways to do that. Well, this was great. I'm I feel a lot more prepared to start selling on Amazon when I choose to do so. And I now know that if you're missing, who's likely behind that, and how to find you. And I really appreciate you sharing your insights on all this today. Ryan: No, thanks Jon. I think Amazon's great. Most people need to look deeper at it. Jon: Yeah, definitely do, there's a lot there, as we found out today, and I definitely found out. Ryan: Yeah, I'm hoping in six months we get to do a CRO conversation on Amazon, too. Jon: Yeah, let's do it. All right. Thank you, sir. Ryan: Thanks, Jon. Announcer: Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes, you can subscribe at driveandconvert.com.