Hi Ville. Welcome to the Leap Takers Podcast. And thank you so much for joining me today on the show
Ville Vesterinen: [00:01:51] Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for having me. 
Remo Kyburz: [00:01:53] Yeah, I'm very  happy you could  join, especially in this busy times. And I thought a great place to start would be if you could briefly introduce yourself to the audience. So who are you and what are you currently working on?
Ville Vesterinen: [00:02:07] Um, my name is Ville Vesterinen. Uh, I'm a Finn born and raised, uh, currently based in, based in Helsinki. Uh, I'm an intrepreneur and I'm a aspiring angel investor. Um, I have, uh, built companies and, uh, invested in some for the past. 10 15 years, um, in a number of different, um, industries. Um, what I'm, what I'm currently doing is, uh, , uh, investing in, um, supporting, uh, starting intrepreneurs, uh, sitting on few different boards, um, and, uh, also just very recently, uh, released a new, you know, incidentally also a podcast out called the long map, um, how to live an interesting life. So that's, that's what I'm currently working on.
Remo Kyburz: [00:02:53] Cool.  I was also really curious to  learn how you got started and how you got interested in startups and the tech industry. Was there any, a specific moment or experience that you had, um, earlier in your life that made you want to go into that field?
Ville Vesterinen: [00:03:11] Right. So I don't, I don't have a technical background per se. Um, I studied, um, business and, uh, political science, political economy. Um, but, uh, what, uh, kind of pulled me in, I I've always, uh, uh, Ever since after high school, I started my first, uh, company. Um, didn't go so  well, but a lot of, a lot of learnings, but, um, but you kind of like, you know, kept that up.
And, uh, after I graduated,  um, That was 2006, 2007. And that was done at the, what was called at the time web 2.0. And there was a lot of excitement around web blogs and people getting excited about the internet again, um, after the first crash, And that kind of got me excited and there's a lot of interesting people writing on the web , and, uh, um, I guess it was the potential for positive chains and the progress that, uh, technology has, uh, um, technology can at its best, um, kind of, um, bring with it.
So, so that was done was really  what pulled me in. So kind of the big visions and the big dreams, uh, versus  the stagnant, um, and, and, and really, really the, really the upside and the unlimited potential and creating new and building new that's. That's what, uh, what technology is for me.
Remo Kyburz: [00:04:39] And at the time, was this an unusual path to take, let's say in Finland. Even compared to today, or how was your experience at this time to start a company? Well, it's, it's an easy thing to do or how did your friends or a family react to that?
Ville Vesterinen: [00:04:59] It probably not. It was, it was not a popular thing to do. Um, back in, um, early two thousands, uh, hearing here in Finland. So I remember when I came back on maybe 2007 back to Finland after studying and working a bit abroad. Uh, if you, if you told me and you're working on a startup, then right after you had to explain what is a startup.
So it was, it was not a kind of a known entity and it was the Nokia heydays. Uh, so, so not a lot of people wanted to go into entrepreneurship and starting new companies. So, um, but that was, that was going to the challenge and we wanted to catalyze and inspire people, to do that. Um, which was part of, starting slush conference at the time.
But, but also, also starting a company. So you had to go on a Mmm. How would I say. There was a, there was not a whole lot to build on top of. So compared to now, you know, you just do a Google search, there's a million blogs and podcasts and whatnot, a lot of resources. , uh, which is great. So you didn't have that much at the time, but they're going to this small community that we had was very supportive.
so it was definitely not the usual thing to do or not the popular thing to do, uh, uh, at the time. But, gladly there was still, you know, a group of people , uh, um, who both believed in it and was very supportive. So I guess that, that was what you could lean on, uh, at the time, uh, you know, when he, when it comes to explaining to parents or whatnot, I think, you know, that. That didn't even cross my mind. So, you know, kind of better not right. So.
Remo Kyburz: [00:06:43] All right. And you already mentioned Slush, this is where I was also going with this question. So, um, Aye was really curious to learn more about the origin story of slush, how this group of people who founded it came together. Um, I know you were involved there right in the beginning of it. So could you tell the audience a little bit about  how you got together, if your cofounders and how you got slush off the ground?
Ville Vesterinen: [00:07:08] Right. Yeah. So good question. Um, I, I came, uh,  back to Finland 2007 and I've been in Amsterdam. And before that, studying in London and at the time I got really interested in the emerging web. Mmm, kind of the social web as it was called web blogs and, you know, everything that came with it.
And, uh, so there was this kind of big undercurrent at the time. So I think the, the, um, tech startups and, you know, start us building on the internet were emerging globally. So, it was a bigger way that we were writing at the time, but I, when I landed in Finland, I had not worked here. Uh, so I didn't know a whole lot of people.
And I, , you know, figure that, ,  interesting, exciting people must be somewhere. So, um, we started to organize small events. These kinda get togethers, um, , for aspiring entrepreneurs, especially tech entrepreneurs, um, here in Helsinki. And, uh, at the same time we started to write a small publication, um, about nordic startups. Um, And kind of trying to highlight and build a window into what was happening at the Nordics at the time, and inspire and get more people,  to start startups and companies and,  building the future and a new product. So that was kind of how it all started.
And I guess there was, you know, there was a group of people who had the same mindset, some of them were already in startups. Um, I'm kind of working on their own and, you know, everybody was part of the scene. Um, so, that kind of cross pollination or, you know, everybody had similar ideas and then first of all, we want more visibility and at the time also funding for , Finnish companies and perhaps, you know, talent and,  open up, build bridges to new markets. we were looking at what was happening in Paris with LeWeb. And that was kidn of the main the only show in Europe, um, especially if you were looking, you know, from state side. So all the US people, that's the only thing they knew about Europe or they, they always went to Paris to LeWeb and we thought that we can do better than that. and that's, that's how it started.
And, and, uh, you know, from the humble beginnings, it was three or 400 people. Um, and now, um, you know, grew from there, , but that was the impetus and, what got us working on, building a startup conference. And, and I think, you know, a lot of those things where there was a lot happening all over the world in different countries at the same time. So kind of like a bigger, um, boom of, uh, you know, tech, startups becoming more popular.
Remo Kyburz: [00:10:02] I think, uh, tech conferences are also , evolving. Especially, I guess nowadays with the whole, uh, COVID situation that you have to go fully online, et cetera. 
So,  what were your learnings from starting Slush,? If there were any that you can share or any takeaways that you took from this time?
Ville Vesterinen: [00:10:24] Right. So, when it comes to conferences. I mean, it's a, you know, what you need is a, is, um, Lotta a lot of energy and a lot of time. So, uh, there's a, there's about a million details. so it's, , tedious, but it can be done. And I guess the biggest learning is that, and this applies to everything new is that we didn't have a clue what we were doing at the time as is the case many times when you start doing something, building something new, but, you, take a step at a time and you don't worry about whether it's perfect or not. and  if you find the group of people that, uh, it's as excited about the thing you just go for it because in the early days, there's a whole lot of people who try to gonna talk you out of it. Uh, maybe, they think of your, you know, your best interests. You know, people told me that, Hey, maybe it's, you know, maybe you should get a job or something like that instead. Or is this the best use of your time? so before it's popular, but this happens, this happens a lot on this, you know, especially if you're say idea, whatever you do is, If there is not a successful example of that, or if it's unique, if it's different than, uh, even much more so, so, so I think sticking with it, um, especially nowadays when you have how the internet is, is I think, you know, um, Yeah, you could almost argue that being weird is a benefit.
So whatever you do you'll find your, um, audience , given it's permissionless and global. So even if you're painting golf ball, I'm sure those are community for you and you can kind of build your life and. Quote, unquote career around that if you will. So that was also the case, with slush that, uh, we didn't know any better. And  in that case, that was a good thing. And we just, uh, we, we wanted to make that happened and we, you know, we're kind of idealistic and strongly believed in our cause. and that's how things,  start it as, as they many times do.
So, so I think that applies to everything new. I think that will be the main lesson from Slush.
Remo Kyburz: [00:12:38] Amazing. And I think that's really true that you need to probably block out a lot of the other noises and focus on your mission and it helps then to be a bit naive maybe at the early stages or not to know too much about some of the downsides as well. Yeah.
Ville Vesterinen: [00:12:58] I think it is a benefit. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So, I think you put it well, so you know, be a little naive and you know, if, if, uh, if you're a naive, uh, people get a lot of done many times. So I think, that's, something maybe a learning there as well.
Remo Kyburz: [00:13:14] I'm really interested now to go  through your, uh, let's say career and, uh, where you're at today. So after slush, could you. Walk me through your main milestones and projects that you were involved since, um, that you consider like, that had the most impact on you or aware that you found the most interesting?
Ville Vesterinen: [00:13:37] Yeah. Happy to. So after Slush there was again like organizing conferences, working on the web publication, we traveled the Nordics, writing about startups and trying to encourage that, um, Culture and bring visibility to it. Um, and then, you know, as many times happens, you got to get hungrier and you saw some of the startups, um, uh, get born and, get built uh, in the Nordics.
So I, of course I wanted to do do the same thing and start, building, um, building products and, uh, at the time, um, Uh, 2000, maybe eight, um, was it  group of friends, um, who were, kind of hardcore gamers and,  played games like World of Warcraft a lot. Uh, 2009, uh, iPhone came out and we started to look at whether, you know, there was for the first time an opportunity to build some of those experiences on mobile.
And nobody knew kind of what mobile was not obvious. It was, it was not, uh, obvious that it is the platform or it will become the platform that it is today. So. Um, and same with games. Uh, you know, nobody knew whether there, you know, will be a such thing as mobile games. Um, and, uh, what ended to be one of my cofounders had had this idea that, um, like Foursquare this, um, like location based service was quite popular.
and, um, uh, we started thinking about whether it would be possible to build location-based games, um, and, uh, it turns out it is. And, um, that was going to our big bet. And we built a company around that called Grey Area around location-based gaming, and it was at the same time, it was the backup, uh, um, I-phones, uh, success.,  and one of the first early, uh, free to play games, 
Remo Kyburz: [00:15:32] could you briefly just explain what location-based games really mean to the audience?
Ville Vesterinen: [00:15:38] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So maybe an example, people might know as Pokemon go, right? So they kind of continue where we left off. So, so you have a gaming experience that is. Around your location from a mobile phone, you look at where you are and the  gaming world you can see that through your phone, but it is very much around your real physical location.
So wherever you go, um, you can see perhaps other people in the same world. So, uh, yeah, in their real location and their gaming experience is built around, Those factors. so we built this  magical world where you were a mage and you were battling, uh, over neighborhoods, concurrent different neighborhoods.
Um, It was called shadow cities at the time, and it was extremely popular. Um, what we didn't realize, nobody else realized either, I guess, was that there was only. It was a real time, um, game.  so it was not as synchronous, but, at real time, and  you played exactly where you were physically, so. you need kind of critical mass, uh, wherever you happen to be at that particular time in that particular location. And that was a high bar given how many iPhones that was out there. so that was a, timing challenge for us. and not too many successful Location-based games emerge , from that.
But I think, and even to this day, I think Pokemon go is the, is the biggest ones, but I think it's still an incredible opportunity, but that was, our shot, um, at it. And, uh, And, and again, like now everybody has a clear idea of  what is a mobile game, but at the time it was not clear.
So it was, it was very exciting at the time. And at Grey Area we worked on a number of different games for five, six years. And, , after that, um, I wanted to think about what to do next. And I joined a small, uh, Uh, early stage investor called reactor ventures and, um, um, you know, do a few investments there, help the portfolio, uh, learn the ropes, what it is to invest in startups and gonna understand that side of the table.
And at the time I invested in a, in a small company called, um, or actually two, two guys, um, um, that is today Swappie. .
So, uh, so, so me and URI and, you know, we started to work together and for the past few years, I've worked very hard closely with, with those guys, Swappie is now some tree hundred people and growing extremely fast, uh, made some 40 million in revenue last year.
And, and, uh, I did make a lot more this year. So, um, and what they do is, uh, Mmm. Uh, it's it's um, an internet marketplace focused on refurbished iPhones. So, um, so that you don't have to trow away or out iPhone, uh, swappie, will buy it, fix it, clean it, uh, make it new and then sell it to somebody who needs one. and, we're currently operating four different markets and expanding fast. 
So, so that, that that's in a nutshell and there's a lot of small projects and, you know, Um, kind of, um, experiments, uh, in between. Um, uh, but, I guess that's it, in a nutshell, the path to this day.
Remo Kyburz: [00:19:03] that's very interesting. And also when I, studied your background, I saw you were involved in quite a few, but I think you really highlighted, well, also what I found very interesting, like gray area, um, Sounds like a very ambitious project, uh, at the time with, with this location based games and, uh, um, it, it sounds very cool. I think you mentioned world of Warcraft. I was around that time. I'm a bit younger than you, but I was playing that game and I did not hear about, um, your game, but it sounds really exciting and, um, Now also with, with, with Swappie. I think it's a great mission to have to, help the world a bit by not throwing away these old phones, but re-use them. So that's very cool. 
So from, your time at Grey Area, especially in gaming, would you say that was something that you would have done different now for someone who maybe thinks about starting a gaming company, um, or just general takeaways from, from that industry that you could, uh, give people?
Ville Vesterinen: [00:20:04] That's a great question.   I think there's a, there's a lot of things. So, with 2020 hindsight, I mean, like as, as one does with, with your first, um, real startup, you make every mistake there is. Um, and then it's just a matter of, you know, making those. Uh, really fast and, getting beyond that before we run out of money.
so I, guess, you know, something that, um, that sticks out for me is,  sticking with the product vision, um, is, is, uh, you know, kinda, you're the only one, whether you have advisors, investors, you know, other people, you know, you're thinking and spending time and, most intimate , with the idea. So kinda like, having confidence in your, in your own vision 
secondly, something that we could have done more is, is, uh, understanding what works and listening to the users. So I'm trying to a zero on that. Like what, what is it exactly that's working so well, people, people love the game at the time. They, uh, you know, people kind of, and to this day I get messages about it, people to tattoos, uh, of the logos and, you know, they were just, coming through doors and windows.
So, there was something that really resonated, but then there was other parts that didn't so understanding what that is. I think it's when you see somebody, you know, really loving your product, it's, uh, it's a sign that you have something, special. 
And when it comes to the, the kinda company building. I think nowadays, um, you have a lot more resources to  learn from, but also a lot more people who have done it successfully. Um, So, talking to your peers and, learning the ins and outs, you might have a new product, but the, but the act of, uh, building a company itself and scaling a company and hiring and, um, you know, building organizations, communication, whatnot, I mean, that is all gonna solve problems. So, so you should not try to go and reinvent the wheel where you don't have to. So, a lot of, the most successful entrepreneurs, they are very good at reaching out. Um, And, and, and kind of listening, but then deciding for themselves what advice to listen to and what not, to, , but overall talking to your peers and, talking to other companies and if you're hiring for a role that you don't have any experience in then  maybe talking to 10 people who are in that role and trying to understand, you know, what that means and what it, what great looks like, what success looks like. you know, that's great way to go about it. 
So, I think those are some of the, learnings. And again, it's, it is, it is very different from 10, 15 years ago. Uh, which is, which is really wonderful, um, to see, uh, kind of how far we come here in Europe.
Remo Kyburz: [00:23:04] Yeah, I think it's also amazing to see what is happening over the last five to 10 years in the European tech and entrepreneurship scene. And. Um, , thanks a lot for this advice. I think, it's very valuable, so to listen to your peers and also to the feedback from your users, so I think that's great advice. 
Another question I had was around Swappie where you are now. I think the chairman of the board, um, for people interested in this company, you said you are operating in four markets. is it mainly the Nordics or where are you right now? 
Ville Vesterinen: [00:23:35] Right. So,  we're open in, uh, in Finland, Sweden, , Denmark and Italy. Italy is one of the like big, um, Southern European markets. We wanted to experiment in on, and we're in the process of opening a number of, um, A number of new markets at the moment. So, really, uh, expanding quite , rapidly this year. , but the company is very much based, here in Helsinki, but hopefully soon, will be across Europe. So, you know, whichever market the listener happens to be.
Remo Kyburz: [00:24:06] Yeah, it sounds very interesting. So if people want to check it out, um, I will make sure to link also to all the companies mentioned in the show notes. And, um, so you can have a look there.
 Then  you recently, got selected for this Atomico angel, , program as an, as an investor. So I had previous show on this guest, uh, Stephano Bernardi, he was also part of this program, one year prior, um, So, I'm just curious to learn about your experience so far in the program and what type of founders you're looking to back and why. So it'd be great. If you could talk a little bit about that?
Ville Vesterinen: [00:24:46] So I think it's really wonderful what Atomico is doing.  so I guess in a nutshell, it's like a scout program. So, , what Atomico does is they give you a hundred K um, to invest, uh, during 12 months, uh, so one year and, uh, effectively you can invest in whoever or whatever you want.
Um, so, uh, you can  choose the company or the founders, and, um, you know, as long as they abide by the. Atomico's  ethical guidelines, but, almost anything. and you can,  write one big check or you can write number of small ones it's really, up to you.
and how I got into that, you know, my guess is I don't, I don't actually know who got it recommended me. my guess is it's Neil Murray from the, Nordic Web. you know, he's such a, nice guy, um, really a wonderful, investor and entrepreneur, um, and Sophia Benz, uh, reached out.
And I did not know Sophia from before. I've heard of her, but she's, she shows so, you know, Really great. Doing, doing super valuable work, uh, with, uh, with the angel program at Atomico. And, uh, we hit it off and, you know, I got, opportunity to join the program. And ever since I've invested in three different companies, all companies, they are, I'm still not out with their products.
Um, And I guess even to me, it's surprisingly two out of three is, uh, has a hardware component. Um, which I didn't anticipate, but, um, but I, I, I'm very excited about what they are working on, I let the company's come out when, when it works for them, instead of announcing them right now.  what I'm interested in general?
I think, um, Uh, also, this is why I started the, um, my own podcast, which I mentioned is, is kind of highlighting some of the opportunities that, um, for, young people and, you know, helping them navigate and find those opportunities. So, I began to keen to invest, uh, um, companies. Improving access to opportunity in general.  and I think I'm very drawn to, um, software networks. Um, so, um, Whether it's social network, whether it's a peer network, whether it's a tool that kind of leverages your creativity or helps you run a business or whatever, whatever it may, may be. But, uh, but that's a thesis that I, believe strongly.
I think, uh, we could do a lot more, we're doing a lot, but we can do a lot more, uh, and given what internet has enabled. So I would love to see more, those companies that make your location even less relevant than it is today in opening opportunities even if you are not in one of the kind of crazy, um, startup hubs or, um,  mega cities of the world.
Remo Kyburz: [00:27:36] Okay. So you would say you're, um, investing in founders in other cities, or you're also investing in companies that enable. founders not from the main hubs to start companies, or is it both?
Ville Vesterinen: [00:27:51] Good clarification. So, so companies that enable them very much that, so the, the latter, so, uh, uh, but I, I do look at, uh, it's not just that, uh, I invested. And I have invested in, in, uh, you know, other verticals, um, other kinds of products, uh, really going to whatever I find interesting, exciting, but widening the access to opportunities, particularly something I would love to see more of. so companies that enable that, I I'd love to hear more of very happy to back.
Remo Kyburz: [00:28:23] that's really, a great, , approach and mission to have. And so if any of the listeners are building something in this field, I can only encourage them to reach out to you. and I'm also very excited to see what companies you've backed once there is more to show.
before we go over to the rapid fire question, you mentioned your podcast. So I would like to give you the word on your, own podcast and, um, maybe you introduce it quickly. And what it is about?
Ville Vesterinen: [00:28:48] Right. Absolutely. So, so the podcast is,  you know, I've just put it together. Uh, I have, you know, first few guests,  ready to go and recorded. 
 The podcast is called The Long Map, it's about exploring how to live an interesting life. and it really goes back to highlighting opportunities and inspiring people about, options and possibilities , they have by, , you know, talking to people who are living interesting lives or a version of it and how they think about different aspects of life, how to spend, how to spend your twenties. what great work looks like, what to study, where to live, , and what that means in the age of internet.
 so that is really the thesis of the blog , and you can subscribe and find the blog a  thelongmap.com and hopefully also an  most popular podcast apps, by the time that, , this podcast goes out.
Remo Kyburz: [00:29:53] Yeah, I'll also make sure then to link it. And, um, hopefully if the first episode it's out then, um, uh, in, in the show notes of this podcast. So yeah. I encourage everyone to, to have a look. I think it sounds very cool. 
.Good. Then as some of my listeners know, I'm closing the podcast with a few rapid fire questions to find out a bit more about you as a person and, uh, outside of just, your project and your career.
So. Um, I will just ask a question and, uh, you can answer it briefly. That would be great. 
Ville Vesterinen: [00:30:22] Yup. to. 
Remo Kyburz: [00:30:25] Perfect. So first question  what is your,  favorite book or movie you watched that this year so far?
Ville Vesterinen: [00:30:32] Probably the book. Um, it's called, um, how Asia works by Joe Stockwell and, uh, it's really a book about, um, The, um, economic development, um, how, how it happened in Asia and why? Um, the basic thesis is that, uh, Mmm. What works for development going from poor to rich is not the same, um, what works for rich countries, what works for poor countries.
So, and, and the book really highlights that and . It talks about the potential for progress and highlights the fact that it does not come automatically, but that anything is possible. So it's really a wonderful window into how,  massive change can happen if the policies are right.
Remo Kyburz: [00:31:22] Sounds intriguing. Thank you for that. 
  if you had to choose your best personal investment that you ever did, what would you say that is? It can be an investment of money or of time or energy. It can be anything. 
Ville Vesterinen: [00:31:38] That's a great question. mine's probably the best choice for us to do a master's degree. Um, in, in London, I did it at, uh, uh, at LSE. Um, it was after my undergraduate degree and I had, that was going to first time for me to study abroad. So I  left Finland and that was a bit unusual at the time. but I was very curious and keen to understand how the world works, um, and why that was not necessarily because I learned so much. And I think I, I did, um, per se, but it was more about understanding what is possible. So at the time I was 20 something, 24, 25. So you kind of sucked in, you were like a sponge, all the different, influences and you saw people from all walks of life and what they plan to make out of their lives.
And there's , You know, unbounded ambition and big ideas and, and, you know, learn about the history. So, so it was really because of the inspiration it gave, it was, one of the best investments I've made.
Remo Kyburz: [00:32:48] And next question goes in a similar direction. If you would have to tell your younger self, a piece of advice, like when you were at 20, 25, is there anything you would tell yourself as a main piece of advice for your later career?
Ville Vesterinen: [00:33:06] That's that's also great. Uh, great question. Um, I think, many people tend to, at least I did, they tend to overthink it. Like, you know, that your, um, whatever you choose, whatever is your first job that will somehow determine, you know, is, is such a big deal for the rest of the life. It's not. So you should just kind of sample a lot. So, uh, see what's out there understanding what works for you. Uh, and, and I guess more than anything nowadays, uh, with internet, um, you're going to almost. Why you can take too much risk when you're 20 something. So the biggest risk is probably not to take risk. So I would just, you know, as ambitious as you can be and then just do many things. so  it's very hard to understand what different paths entail, if you don't try them out.
Remo Kyburz: [00:33:59] wow. Thank you very much for that. And as a closing question, since the name of the podcast is a leave takers podcast. I always like to ask my guests what courage means to you personally. Is there anything that comes to mind?
Ville Vesterinen: [00:34:13] courage is I guess, many times, at least how it manifests itself is, Standing up for what you, what you believe, when it's not the popular or the fashionable thing to do. And , it applies to personal choices, but also if you're, you know, starting a new company, and, build  something,  unique and new and different.
So, it might be challenging, uh, and it takes a lot of courage to stick to your guns.
Great.  thank you so much for all these insights today, in this interview, I really appreciated it and I found it really interesting. So, um, to wrap it up, where can people find out more about you online or about, um, the long map? Um, is there any Twitter handle or, uh, other websites where they can find more about you.
Right. I guess the best way is to, um, check all my Twitter on, uh, that's my last name. So  V E S T E R I N E N at @vesterinen. Um, You can also go to my, home page, villevesterinen.com. And the new podcast is at thelongmap.com. Check it out.
Remo Kyburz: [00:35:29] Perfect! Again. Thank you so much Ville and, uh, all the best to you and good luck with the podcast and, uh, uh, future endeavors. Thank you so much.
Ville Vesterinen: [00:35:39] Thank you. This was great.