LeapTakersPodcast_#26 - Anjali Raja [00:00:00] Remo_Kyburz: Coming up on this episode of Leap Takers: [00:00:02] Anjali_Beharelle: So one area I worked on is how do we have self control? And what situations do we make a patient choice compared to what situations do we make an impulsive choice? And just to give you an example with food choices, you know, when do we decide to eat a candy bar versus when do we decide to take the salad? Um Predict to some extent when people are going to make a decision, that's good for their long-term interests versus short term inches by looking at the brain. And then we try to stimulate those areas to see if we can kind of push the decisions in a more beneficial direction. And so that was of course, very relevant to what I'm doing now at the startup. To just better try to understand how to help people make decisions that are in their best interest. Intro [00:00:45] Remo_Kyburz: Hello, everyone. It has been a while since the last episode. And I will tell you in a second, why. But most importantly, I'm very excited to finally bring your new episode today of the leap takers podcast. As usual I'm interviewing up-and-coming European entrepreneurs, investors, and shapers from various fields to retrace their journey of how they got started. With their own project, their own company, And to discover the insights, tips, tricks, and advice they gathered so that you too can hopefully take the leap one day. So before I get to announcing my guests, though, just a quick personal update. I recently decided to take a break from my job in venture investing and to instead. Take off a few months to travel. And maybe also to start thinking and working on some business ideas, startup ideas I have. So I'm actually about to leave Switzerland. Uh, in a few days and they'll fly to Latin America. So you might wonder what does that mean for the podcast? Well, most importantly, yes, I will still continue the podcast And I will. Keep on trying to bring on interesting guests to this show. However, the episodes might not be released as regularly anymore for the next. Next few mounts as in the past. I mean, even this episode has. It's been, delayed, for quite a bit. So. It all depends on the guest that we'll be able to find and how easy it will be to record the podcasts while I'm backpacking. through Latin and south America. Still. I'd be very happy to hear from you if you have any guests recommendations or people you would like me to interview so just shoot me a message over the contact form At leap takers.com. if you have any ideas So now to today's episode my guest is Anjali Raja Beharelle, Anjali is the CSO the chief science officer and one of the founders of collabree.com. Collabree is a swiss e-health and digital adherence startup focused on helping patients to make lasting behavioral changes And to stick to their therapy regimen This is being achieved with the collabree app which leverages insights from behavioral economics and neuroscience into supporting people to form healthy habits so this all sounds very complicated but Anjali will make it a lot clearer in this episode what this all means so i really enjoyed this episode and the belief this episode is specifically interesting to everyone that is interested about scientific research and that wants to learn more about the science behind behavioral change And how you can form healthy habits As well As people that are thinking of entering the startup world from the world of academia So without further ado Please enjoy this episode with anjali Interview [00:03:30] Remo_Kyburz: Hi Anjali Welcome to the Leap takers podcast Thank you so much for coming on the show today And it's so great to have you. [00:03:36] Anjali_Beharelle: thank you so much for inviting me to your podcast and giving me the opportunity to talk about Collabree. [00:03:41] Remo_Kyburz: Yeah I'm very happy that you're here And as always with my guests in the podcast let's just start with a quick introduction of yourself So how would you introduce yourself to someone you just met like at the networking event or a dinner? [00:03:54] Anjali_Beharelle: Okay. Well, my name is Anjali Raja Beharelle and I'm originally a neuroscientist. I got my PhD at the university of Toronto and I, as you can probably tell from my accent, I'm originally from the U S from Chicago. I co-founded a company called Collabree a year ago, and I am very excited to apply what I know about neuroscience to the company to help patients improve their medication adherence. [00:04:19] Remo_Kyburz: Yeah we will definitely talk about the whole topic that you're trying to tackle with Collabree later in this podcast before we get there So like I'm curious about your personal background and how you got interested in entrepreneurship How did you get interested in the world of startups and why did you decide then to join a startup or to co-found a startup? [00:04:40] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah. It's interesting. I think it was people telling me, you know I could potentially do outside of science and entrepreneurship just came up a lot. And I think there's a lot of similarities between how you work in a startup and how you work in research. You know, one thing in research is you have to be comfortable with taking bigger risks. A lot of times your experiment doesn't work out. And when I was telling people about what I was doing in the lab and saying I was looking for something else potentially outside of science I would say three or four people said, why don't you look into startups? And then the other thing was that I was just really excited about taking what we did in the lab and trying to actually apply that in the real world. And So when I got in touch with the other co-founders of Collabree , it just seemed like a number of things were coming together that were helpful for me in taking that next step. But yeah, I would say it's just basically this idea of wanting to take risks and wanting to build something new that you have to have in science. And also as an entrepreneur, [00:05:38] Remo_Kyburz: So you were in academic research before could you give us a brief overview about You did exactly what you like what you're focused on where where you did your PhD. [00:05:51] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah, sure. So, well, I started off being interested in neuroscience because of the fact that. Every aspect of human existence seems to have a biological correlate in the brain. And so I don't know if some of your audience has read the neurologist Oliver sacks, but I just found that really fascinating. Some of his books. And that's kinda what led me to want to be a neuroscientist and to find out how can we better understand how we think, how we perceive the world. And potentially also how we recover from damage when we lose some of these functions, how do we rehabilitate, how does the brain compensate for losing this. Functions that are coded in different parts of it. So for my PhD it was more clinical and I looked at children that had had a stroke in utero. And so what was really fascinating there is that compared to an adult who has a similar injury children who have a stroke in utero recover language almost as well as their normal peers. So I wanted to see what happens when you take out this area with a stroke, how has the. Uh Able to come and save for it with plasticity and what that taught me was just a lot about the fundamentals of neuroscience and anatomy and how the brain and neural networks reconfigure. So that's what I worked on in my PhD When I came to Zurich, then I. Transitioned more into decision-making or a field what's called neuroeconomics. So this looks at what happens in the brain when we make various decisions. So rather than just waiting for perhaps a brain injury or a lesion to happen so we can understand it. In the lab I was in Zurich, we were actively manipulating brain networks to see how it changes behavior for making. Different types of behavioral decisions, such as decisions involving self-control or taking risk. And what we would do is we would stimulate those areas with magnetic stimulation or electric stimulation, or also with neurofeedback to see how does the brain respond and how can we actually change behavior? And what was really interesting there also is I learned how to make very precise models of decision-making. So one area I worked on is how do we have self control? And what situations do we make a patient choice compared to what situations do we make an impulsive choice? And just to give you an example with food choices, you know, when do we decide to eat a candy bar versus when do we decide to take the salad? Um Predict to some extent when people are going to make a decision, that's good for their long-term interests versus short term inches by looking at the brain. And then we try to stimulate those areas to see if we can kind of push the decisions in a more beneficial direction. And so that was of course, very relevant to what I'm doing now at the startup. To just better try to understand how to help people make decisions that are in their best interest. [00:08:40] Remo_Kyburz: sound super exciting and [00:08:41] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah. [00:08:42] Remo_Kyburz: I'm sure a lot of people would like to get some support too I guess in the example you mentioned to eat healthier and not choose the candy bar [00:08:51] Anjali_Beharelle: Yes. [00:08:52] Remo_Kyburz: for the more healthy option but I'm also curious So you were in this whole academic field and how did it come that you found this startup or that you co-founded the startup Like did you reach out to the other founders or you all came together and thought this is a cool idea we should start a company in that area Or how did this origin story happen of Collbree? [00:09:12] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't quite like that. It was really through a connection, like so many things in the career world. So they reached out to, or they had an average. For a co-founder and my colleague actually found this who is working on various similar research questions as I was. And one thing was that they needed someone who could speak German fluently. And this was very helpful because I grew up with a German speaking mother. And another thing was that my area of research was looking at this sort of trade-off between. Yeah, decisions that are in your short-term best interest versus long-term best interest. So I think that fit was a little bit better. At the same time before I met the co-founders, I always had those kicking around in the back of my head about taking what we're doing in the lab and actually trying to apply it in the real world. So all of these exciting results I was describing to you about being able to stimulate people's brains and changing their behavior, they often just hold in the lab and It's really rare that someone takes them in and tries to apply them in a real world setting. I think what tends to happen is that people write a paper, they published it, and it always just seemed to stay in the ideal realm, which is great. You know, you feel like you have a really good understanding of what's happening, but it seemed like it was always really separate from the real world. And I was just. Excited by this idea of seeing what can we do it and make it ecologically valid and actually take these ideas and really test them and see if we can help people. So it was very exciting for me when my colleague introduced me to the other Collabree members. And I felt like it was just a good synergy in the beginning. [00:10:45] Remo_Kyburz: maybe this is a good time to tell the audience a bit more about Actually what color Brie is and what the goal is of the startup Like what's the product you're working towards or what's the solution you're working towards and what is the issue you're really trying to solve with? [00:11:00] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So Collabree , if some of you will maybe visit our website later as inspired by the German word for hummingbird the Collabree which is just a very Hardworking, very active bird. I think people just associate it with a lot of positive emotions. So we thought it was a great logo for a company, but it also is a combination of that and the word collaboration. And so we were just very taken with wanting to help patients with chronic diseases. Given the fact that this is such an increasing problem, not only in Switzerland. But worldwide. And that requires the integration, not only of the patient, but several people that have to collaborate with the patient to manage their disease, such as their family, their friends, their healthcare givers, insurance companies, et cetera. So that's kind of where the idea initially came from then through questions with different physicians and stakeholders. We realized a huge problem is medication adherence. So patients who have chronic conditions about 50% of them, don't actually take their medications. The way that they're prescribed. Some of them don't even fill their prescriptions at all. And some of them take them, but then occasionally take drug holidays or take some time off. And this, of course, as you can imagine, leads to a lot of avoidable healthcare costs patients wind up having to be go to the ER, having to have repeat hospital visits, there's decrease in productivity. And an estimated 125 billion euros are lost every year because of this problem with medication adherence and even people prematurely lose their lives. And an estimated 200,000 lives are lost per year. This is in Europe alone. So it's a huge problem and it's a little bit mind boggling. 'cause you wonder, you know, when it's in your best interest to take these medications, why does so many patients not do this? You know, even patients who've, for example, had a heart attack a year later, 50% don't follow their medication plan, even though this means they're very likely to suffer a heart attack again. So. Most solutions that look at this assume that there must be some rational reasons for this that people behave rationally. If they were patients were only given more information, if they were told more about their illness then they would follow their medication plan. And so the different approach from Collabree is that we understand that we actually are not rational. This is a fundamental insight from behavioral economics. We don't always make decisions that are in our. Best interests in the longterm were affected by different kinds of cognitive biases. For example, present bias. This is what I was looking at with the candy bar. You know, we often tend to pick something that's in our term. Best interest, even though, you know, the tomorrow you is going to regret, maybe eating five candy bars or regret not going jogging. And we also have emotional, psychological drivers for why we behave a certain way and often it's not under our conscious or volitional control. So the whole idea of collabree is to take the best evidence we have from behavioral neuroscience and integrate that into. To the app to try to address these biases and to help patients one develop habits sustainable long-term habits in order to take their medications on time, patients are just currently being given their new prescription and just sent off without the tools that they need to sort of build this routine. And To just the F giving them rewards. That's our sort of main driver that we reward the patients in the short term to offset, having to wait for this very long-term potentially uncertain benefit of having better health. [00:14:35] Remo_Kyburz: Okay So if I understand your rights you're like the end product you're working towards is an app that you would then give to the consumer or the person taking medication and that they have to use the app in combination of taking the medication Is that the idea? [00:14:51] Anjali_Beharelle: Yes. And it's a little bit more than that. It's not something we just hand out to the patients, our working with insurance companies, like I said, this collaborative aspect we're working with the health care providers. The idea is that it actually would be like a digital medicinal product that gets prescribed to the patient. When they come in, when they received their diagnosis for the chronic conditions. Uh They will receive this. Like they would all of their other prescriptions and it would be in close collaboration with their healthcare provider [00:15:19] Remo_Kyburz: Okay Okay I think that makes a lot of sense to go through that channel of the healthcare provider instead of going directly B2C directly to consumer because I think in that context It's a lot more beneficial if you have that support from the insurance company or the healthcare provider [00:15:35] Anjali_Beharelle: Right. And the insurance companies would then reimburse just like they would with any other prescription, given that they're the ones that are paying the brunt of the costs. Although we are as a whole, as a society, um then companies are maybe the most direct ones that are. [00:15:52] Remo_Kyburz: Yeah And how far along are you with the development process of the app Or when do you expect that you will launch Is there any timeline out there yet ? [00:16:03] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah. Yeah, there's definitely, there's a timeline. So currently we have a clinical trial that's underway with the university hospital in Basel. This is to validate the app in patients that have high blood pressure. And so what we want to do is because we're very interested in having scientific evidence for our intervention. We want to prove the safety and the efficacy of the the product. And so we're expecting the first results to be in six months, we've already initiated discussions, with the insurance companies. We have particularly one that's interested in potentially reimbursing us if we can show this clinical. Uh So the timeline for that would be within the next six months to be able to give them these early results and then to start these negotiations. However some of these mechanisms I was describing, like present bias, as we pointed out are also related to other types of healthy behaviors. Taking your medications like eating healthy um fitness. So we are planning to launch a non-prescription version of the app, which will be in a app stores the beginning of quarter four. So sometime in October, November people can actually access that for their own goal setting. And they will be able to either bet their own rewards or we will have rewards available for them just depending on [00:17:18] Remo_Kyburz: exciting exciting it will do you know already if the app will be in the Android store and the iOS store [00:17:26] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah, it definitely has been developed for both. It's also for both in the clinical trial, [00:17:30] Remo_Kyburz: Okay Okay [00:17:31] Anjali_Beharelle: everyone with a smartphone above a certain OS should be able to download it. [00:17:36] Remo_Kyburz: Okay cool since we talked about the scientific research I would like to dive a bit deeper into you know the the studies you're running or also behavioral economics how behavioral economics can help so You already described the problem but we could dive a bit deeper in like your insights why this happens and how you were now in practice trying to counteract that behavior that people are not acting in their best interest And you could expand a bit on what you found out so far and on what the science says? [00:18:09] Anjali_Beharelle: Definitely. So as I was saying before our decisions are heavily influenced by these cognitive biases, particularly present bias. And of course different people have different levels of how this influences them. But one thing is that we actually give them short-term rewards which is an insight from behavioral economics that we just give them some tangible rewards that they can have now they actually have In hands that will allow them to compensate for the fact that the long-term reward is so abstract. One thing that we do from behavioral economics is that we leverage some of these biases. For example, there's a principle called loss aversion. So basically when you have something and it's taken away from you, let's say I give you five francs and I take it away. If you don't. I don't know, eat your broccoli. That's gonna hurt you twice as much as if I say, Hey, Ramo I'm going to give you five Franks if you eat your broccoli. So the way we do it with Collabree is that we give patients the reward upfront. They feel like it's theirs. They feel like they own it. We take advantage also of this endowment effect. And then slowly we redact the deduct the reward when they don't. They don't take their medications or at least they don't ascertain that they take their medications. So we just [00:19:24] Remo_Kyburz: question Is this reward always a monetary reward or can it be [00:19:28] Anjali_Beharelle: No, no, it can be something else. So we also give other rewards, this isn't based on loss aversion but we give them instant gratification and that can come in all forms. And that's also something interesting from behavioral economics that in the brain, at least neurally there's something called the common currency hypothesis. That rewards are actually processed quite similarly, regardless of. Food or if they're positive feedback or if it's financial, of course this is up for debate, but our ideas to personalize it. So that once we have enough information about our participants in the study, we can see which reward is actually predicting that they will take their medication better. So we can give them an animation. We give them instant gratification. We give them gamification so they can see their streaks. You know, how many days in a row did they have perfectly adherent days? Of course, the longer your street, the less likely you are to break it. We're integrating family members. So potentially they'll get a video from their grandkid, giving them a high five you know, things that would make them just feel happy, make their day just to make them feel good. So it certainly doesn't have to be a financial reward. We just know from other studies that that is one effective way, particularly when it's coupled with loss aversion to motivate people, to continue to stay with the medication taking behavior. [00:20:46] Remo_Kyburz: sorry I didn't want to interrupt You were also saying I think about I'm not sure if you wanted to talk about the study so running or if you could expand a bit more on on the studies Yeah I [00:20:56] Anjali_Beharelle: Right. Yeah. So the study, I cannot reveal results to you I started in July. But we have three arms. And so, like I said, it's patients with hypertension and what's great is we actually will get clinical evidence for this. So patients come in for 500. Um They have their blood pressure taken through the gold standard, which is 24 hour blood pressure monitoring. They also have a smart dispenser that they keep their medication in that records a timestamp of when they open it. Because of course it's a bit difficult to actually assess if the patients are taking it or if they're just validating that in the app. And so we have one. It's a control group. You know, you always want to just see if your app is better than doing nothing at all. So they get nothing with the app. And then we have two versions of the app, one with rewards and one with just reminders. So another thing about the app is that it helps you establish Habits through reinforcing, what's known as the habit loop. So you have a cue, you perform the action and then you get a reward. All of that is integrated into the Collabree app and we're just testing. Is, are the rewards going to work better, which we hypothesized. They will compare to just getting a reminder every day, which might actually be annoying and which most of the solutions currently is all they're really doing. [00:22:15] Remo_Kyburz: Okay And I'm just wondering a bit in practice Like if you have this upfront reward who would finance that in the end Is it like the insurance company that puts up like a certain amount as like a reward If you use the app on stick to the medication in in the case of like medication adherence? [00:22:33] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah [00:22:34] Remo_Kyburz: did you play [00:22:35] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah, it's the idea is that it would be a fee for each patient. So it would be a user fee for the service, as well as the adherence based rewards. Of course, the last adherence they are the less you have to pay them. But on average, if they are perfect, it would be a hundred. Franks a month. What's important is that this is a short-term intervention. So these financial incentives, they're just supposed to be a crudge. The idea that's really important with habit formation, as you start off by doing it for a reward. So for example, when you were a kid and you were brushing your teeth, you might've just done it because your parents told you great job afterwards, but eventually it should be habit. It should be ingrained and it should just be triggered by the cue, the reminder. And so. Our intervention is a 90 day intervention. It's three months of these a hundred Frank rewards. And after that we will check the maintenance of the habit and we actually follow up the patients six months later to see if they're still following their habits based on just the cue. So it's not like you're going to. Hooked to be paying these ward forever and ever now um the short-term invention this is just for the medication adherence. Of course then we have this other version, the non-prescription version where we're going to have lotteries, which also leverages behavioral economics. So people I think, tend to overestimate the probability of winning. And the ideas that you, depending on the number of days that you're adherent, you can wager a certain number of points in a lottery, and then you can get those certificates either to your pharmacy to get the medications reimbursed or for other stores depending on which providers that we have for that. And then finally, There is the wager your own money option, which is like a commitment device. So you have to put up the responsibility and accountability up front, you pay a certain amount of money and then you get more back. If you actually meet the goals. [00:24:26] Remo_Kyburz: Okay Okay And this would be more applicable than to as you mentioned before areas like you want to maybe improve your diet or sports or other areas of your life that are not directly medically related but maybe just for your own wellbeing or your own health is yeah Is there any specific areas Are focusing on or is this a more general all-purpose app? [00:24:51] Anjali_Beharelle: It's mostly related to healthy habits. So we're not focusing on like career goals or things like that. So that would be exercise, nutrition sleeping butter. We are interfacing with devices that can help monitor. Certain performance. So for example, with the chronic conditions, again, we are interfacing with blood pressure monitors that can give you feedback. So potentially we have the option to interface with different wearables as well. So it is general in terms of healthy habits. [00:25:19] Remo_Kyburz: So yeah this app really reminds me also of like other you know habit forming apps but It sounds like Collabree is going a step further because you have this rewards or these let's say behavioral economic triggers or or insights applied because my at least my own experiences that I do this habit apps And then at one point I just stopped using them because I don't really see the point why I should keep using it or I forget et cetera but if you can hack kind of the brain To work in your favor and that's really since like a cool and very helpful yeah next step so I want to ask you a bit about this whole habit formation part as well and what the research says about that If you could expand on the insights that we got from research and science about habit formation? [00:26:03] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah. Definitely. I think that's a really good point that you were saying is that there are a lot of habit apps out there, but I think they don't address all the components of this habit loop. Even though there are definitely books and like atomic habits and people that are out there talking about it. I think in the app, it's really great. If you can just integrate everything that you need to form a sustainable habit. So that's what we're trying to do. So just to give an overview Your audience. Isn't so familiar with what the literature says. Habits are different from conscious behavior and that they're automatic. And as I said, you know, they're not usually done with a lot of awareness. This is really different from how we approach. Changing our habits, we approach changing our habits and that we say to ourselves, okay, well, we're just going to set a goal and we assume that our willpower is going to carry us there. But in fact it couldn't be more different from the truth because most of our behavior is actually done unconsciously and done automatically. So relying on willpower alone. Um Not really helpful in terms of promoting a long-term habit. You know, if you have a short-term action that you want to perform and then willpower and conscious action is great, but what you need to actually Do is set up your environment and set up a routine for yourself that allows you to perform your desired behavior as unconsciously and automatically as possible. So habits are basically how we get through our day. It's us running, usually on autopilot. And it's not really that influenceable by conscious action. A second component about habits is that they're, they're very sticky is how we refer to it. So they're um very, this is good. This is what we want. Like they're very resistant to changes in context. The deeper, the habit is ingrained and they're also last for very long term. So some classic examples for this, it's not the same as ha habit, but drug addiction. Um You know, you say an addict is never recovered. They're always an addict. And there's these famous cases like Philip Seymour Hoffman who relapsed into his addiction 30 years later, just because certain triggers can then promote you to do the same behavior. Or, you know, we all have the experience of just maybe going home from work and we want to run an errand and then we stop paying attention. And then we find that all we already got home because we just executed the action on autopilot. So habits are just a deeply ingrained they're sticky. One reason for this from neuroscience, that's really interesting is just the way the brain processes during habit formation. So this is from animal research, but when animals carry out and learn a new behavior, the brain is active for the entire behavioral sequence. But when it becomes a habit, the brain actually is only active at the beginning and the end at the end of the sequence. So it kind of chunks the entire action sequence into one behavior. And then it just runs from the beginning of the mark or the activity was to the end. Automatically. And so we see this when like rats learn to traverse a maze, they have this type of chunking activity and all of a sudden, they no longer think about deciding where to go. They just run and they just go and they don't have to think about it. And it's the same thing with us. We just we don't interrupt that behavior. We just run that sequence. So one thing that's really interesting about it though, is that we need this system. You know, it's not a bad thing. Like we have this trade off between things that are very stable and things that are new, that we need you know, planning and creativity and attention for. And so the habit system just allows you to automatize all these actions so you can free up different resources in your brain. But the idea is then you have. Kind of smart and hack your brain in terms of figuring out how are you going to change your habits? Because you have to drop an old behavior while at the same time learning a new one. And that can be very challenging [00:29:50] Remo_Kyburz: Do you always have to drop an old behavior? This is the one-to-one replacement? [00:29:55] Anjali_Beharelle: No, no, you know, that's a good point. You don't always have to, of course, like if you. Aren't running in, you know, you can also just learn a new behavior where you can try to do them simultaneously. I mean, it doesn't necessarily have to be a one-to-one replacement. It's just, if you're trying to break a bad habit and replace it with a good one, then you have these like simultaneously conflicting challenges. But the good news is that what we understand about habits is that you have to have these three components that we have in the app, which is you have to have this queue, which in our app is the reminder. Then you have the action and then you really need to have this reward because the reward is what you do the habit for initially. And as you transitioned from this goal directed action to the habit you have dopamine related systems that link the fact that you perform this action with the reward. They slowly link it to just the queue. And then in the end you just have, the queue is like a trigger and then you are able to perform the action automatically. So if you figure out ways to make your good habits, easily rewarded, linked to a queue, make your bad habits as, as difficult and as unrewarding as possible. And you do this with your environment, rather than relying on your own willpower, then you can actually develop long-term habits. [00:31:11] Remo_Kyburz: Okay And you also mentioned before like make it easy for you to set up these routines and Like I just remember I think I'm not sure if it wasn't in atomic habits or in another book that the author recommended to if you want to start running for example you should already put out your chalking shoes like right Kind of when you get out of bed or something and you Prepare your clothes so that it's like easier for you to just go out are there other like maybe tips you have for the audience if Yeah I mean it it it can be in any area like just if you have any other tips or insights from research how to improve your habit formation? [00:31:48] Anjali_Beharelle: So that's a, that's a great one. I was listening to podcasts by Wendy wood. Who's a psychologist who works on habits and she even sleeps in her jogging clothes. So she takes it a step further and then talks about this whole, like preparing your environment. Like a chef would prepare his Mise en place for cooking. Like if you can have everything set up, then it's obviously much easier. To just carry out and execute the habit. So some other things just on the reward side that are really interesting is that you always want to pair the behavior with a positive emotion. So let's say you are jogging. You can, maybe you have a, a show or a podcast that's like a guilty pleasure. You can combine that with jogging. You say I'm an only if it's on the treadmill, the show, obviously not on the street, but I'm only gonna watch this show or listen to this podcast or listen to this band or whatever it is I'm going to reward myself immediately after or during the behaviors. So what's really important is to pair it with a reward and the reward has to be immediate. And I think that's why often. Some of these apps are maybe not as helpful because you kind of make it a long-term reward, nonetheless. And we just need to have these very short-term positive feedback cycles and you can get really creative with that. So it doesn't just have to be something like food or money. It can just be praise. It can just be telling yourself, like just re framing the situation. Like I am a amazing jogger, you know, giving yourself that identity or. I am very proud of myself for doing this, or look at all these positive aspects to eating this broccoli or salad, but it's just making that positive association is, is really helpful. And then another thing is unpredictable rewards are more helpful at building. And, and predictable rewards based on time rather than an action. So it's not like if I do this habit, I will reward myself 80% of the time. What you would do instead is you would say, if you, if you can set this up, you have a random time each day that you set an alarm and then if you've done the habit by that time, then you can have the reward. But if you, if you haven't done it, then, then you don't. So I'm playing a little bit with the unpredictability and the timing is something that when neuroscience has been shown to form various stable habits, because then you want to be there at a predictable time in order to receive your reward. [00:34:16] Remo_Kyburz: Okay Okay. So it could mean that you get this alarm or notification you know it could be any time it's let's say in later afternoon or evening and until then you need to have done this activity Is that my correct understanding [00:34:31] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah, exactly. And so that's one of the nice things about Collabree is like, it gives you these rewards also using some of this information. So you don't have to set anything up for yourself. It kind of does all the planning for you in terms of the reminder and in terms of adding this unpredictable component for the rewards. [00:34:49] Remo_Kyburz: Okay Very interesting I'm excited to see how like the final product or the first product that you will release will look like and how you combine this academic research with and an actual product that people then can use with as an app so I'm really looking forward to that and I want to talk a bit more about Collabree as a as a startup and first of all could you share anything about your fundraising situation and like your future plans as Collabree Like what next to releasing the app What are your other plans? [00:35:20] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah, so our fundraising is currently, we're looking to raise 1.8 million in this round and we have closed 400,000 committed. So we're definitely like in the middle of actively fundraising right now in Switzerland. In terms of our roadmap, the biggest things that we want to do is right now, Be able to continue the clinical trial and have this evidence. Because then we want to enter, like I said, into negotiations with insurance companies about a reimbursement model. However we do have other exciting things going on on this side one is like I said, interfacing with devices such as blood pressure monitoring. But we also want to interface with potentially our own smart dispenser. Or other types of wearables that we can integrate so that people can actually see the positive effects of the behavioral change. And the other thing is that we want to get certified as a medical device because there is a new German law called DECA. Um allows fast development of digital therapeutics that you don't necessarily need to have the clinical or efficacy established right away. But you have to do that as a medical device. So in order to give early access to our product to patients in Germany, we are on the way to get the certifications. those are some of our plans into the future. And then of course the personalization, once we have data from the trial, I think what's very exciting to me is then to be able to figure out what motivates individual people, you know, what are the, maybe the psychological characteristics that we have where we can say, well, one person has, is motivated by the instant gratification. Others have financial rewards. Others are motivated by the, the feedback that they're getting, that they're getting healthier. And being really, being able to tailor that for our customers is, is going to be really exciting. [00:37:04] Remo_Kyburz: Yeah definitely like another area I want to talk about it's also your experience going into a startup coming from an academic background maybe for other people out Or doing a PhD or kind of are focused on an academic path but my think about joining a startup or going down that route in the future So how was your experience like going from one way of working towards the more the startup way of working is there anything you can share about that and like Learnings or like something you would tell yourself before you would do it again? [00:37:37] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah, definitely. I'm so happy you asked me that. Because I think it's w it was just a really exciting surprise for me, and I love that your show is called leap takers, because that's exactly how it felt leaving academia. Like I was just taking some plunge into the deep end. And if there are any members in your audience still in research, I just would strongly say, it's just not as scary as you think. And I think if you're in academia, you have this idea that everything you're doing is only valuable in academia. And I did this program called Filomeno and it's for women who want to take their research ideas and they want to transition it to an innovation. And we had so much training on how to um really just build confidence, I would say was the most important thing, but also to apply our skills from a PhD in the real world. And it was just such a nice discovery for me to realize the things that they had been telling. Actually seemed to be true that a lot of what we learn about how to think and creatively problem solve and visualize data quantitively natively, analyze results, synthesize literature is also applicable to what I'm doing right now in the startup. And the mindset that you really have taking on this like big, unknown project, where you have like an idea of how the results are going to be, but it's really high risk. It could turn out completely differently. That's actually really helpful in an entrepreneurial world. And I had been told that in this program and other people's. You know, , that the skills translate, but I just wish I had even considered it sooner because it's really exciting to know you can apply everything that you do in science to other problems and the skills are needed in lots of places. So I would just say to the listeners that they should take confidence that they have learned a lot, even if it doesn't seem like that based on your publication record. [00:39:32] Remo_Kyburz: Okay Thanks for sharing your insights about the making the move from like academia to the startup world but what do you what do you think what would you think are the differences as well in in your experience? [00:39:43] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah. I mean, it's obviously not exactly the same. So it is more unclear and like lots of different paths are possible. And it's more fast paced, obviously. So in academia you have your project and you tend to work with, you know, fairly narrowly within that goal. And one thing I had to get used to, but it's also very exciting is you know, people will come along. They'll have a new idea at potentially interested company. Approach us about, you know, adopting Collabree for their specific use case. Like I said, we're working with this blood pressure monitoring. So all of a sudden you know, a lot of my job is taking what we know about research and translating it. It's like, oh, well you have to pivot into another direction and I have to go and like do a deep dive into the literature related to that use case and then figure out ways to translate. Based on, that particular direction that we're moving in So I think it keeps you on your toes and that is exciting, but then there's just more uncertainty, I think, in, in terms of how you're going to go forward. [00:40:43] Remo_Kyburz: Yeah it's definitely helpful to get both perspectives here on both sides of the coin good So I always Close the podcast if some rapid fire questions So if you could just give me your immediate thoughts to that let's start with your favorite book podcast blog can be anything that you believe had a big personal impact on you on your life or your thinking Is there anything that comes to mind? [00:41:11] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah, we'll probably want to make favorite books as this book called a prayer for Owen meany by John Irving. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It's a really well-written creative book. And it's just a coming of age story, but I haven't read a book. I think that I've thought was so insightful and inspiring. And it's always stated that it's like about religious belief in the absence of God, but I don't think it's like that not being a particularly religious person. I don't think it's necessarily that it's just about how this main character Owen has really quirky, interesting traits that are very strange. I would say. And throughout the story, it just turns out they all kind of help him achieve exactly what he wanted to do. And this there's just this idea of even the strangest, most half hazard things have some kind of inevitability in how this character's life turned out. And I just think it's something that we don't focus on enough that, you know There is a good use to every aspect of our personality and every life experience. And I just think this book really brings it home, that there's this kind of inevitability to where you're going in life and that just people comment and help you along the way. And I just, you know, when I took this jump into a startup, I felt the same. I thought, you know, this is really risky, but I felt like so many people were there to support me and help me. And it just kind of. was like, this is What I had in the back of my head. Just kind of worked out and I feel like this is so well written in this book. So I would want everyone to read it. [00:42:43] Remo_Kyburz: What are your role models? [00:42:44] Anjali_Beharelle: I guess in science, my. Big role model is Jocelyn bell Burnell. I think because especially as a woman in science, you just come up with a lot of struggles. And so she is a famous physicist to discover the first the first P radio pulsars star. And wasn't given the Nobel prize. For this discovery, even though she very much deserved it. And in the face of that, she has just like become this role model for women in science, everywhere. And she donated all her earnings for the other prize money that she received only to fund and support women and minorities in science. And I just feel like someone like that, you know, who just has so much character to not be bitter by such an experience and to. Instead, turn that around and serve as a role model. I think it's just really inspiring. [00:43:35] Remo_Kyburz: Yeah definitely And is there any advice you would give your younger self maybe before you Even started your studies or after you finished your PhD any advice you could think of? [00:43:48] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah, I guess it's so cliche. I I'm sorry. I don't have anything like exciting for you, but I would just say to stop worrying so much because it really is like 90% of the things you were like freaking out about or worrying about are just not going to happen. And it's really just, you know, I wish I would have just believe that everyone tells you that, but it's like, I really wished I could have actually come back in time and just said, you know, Stop spending energy on things like that and just realize, you know, things are gonna work out quite well. And all these little issues are not worth bothering about, but I know a lot of people say that and no one listens. So, [00:44:28] Remo_Kyburz: That's still helpful to hear it like my final question is what does courage mean to you [00:44:35] Anjali_Beharelle: Authenticity. I think a lot of people say that, but I think that's still one of the hardest things is to actually. Live by who you want to be and to take actions every day, because they're what you want to be doing. And not because of external societal expectations and pressure. I think that's, if we're able to do that, that's the most courageous thing we can do is just to live for ourselves. And, and then realizing are the people that actually will support you or the friends you want. Anyway. It's just really difficult to to not follow other people's expectations. [00:45:09] Remo_Kyburz: Yep Fully agree if that one Okay Well thank you so Anjali for coming on the podcast and telling us more today about Collabree and the research behind it And yeah Wishing you all the best with your startup and with the clinical studies And that is hopefully you can launch the app soon where can people Find out more about Collabree and you are there any links you can point them to? [00:45:34] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah thank you so much for having me on the podcast. And it was really fun. If people want, they can check out our website it's www.collabree.com I think it's going to be spelled out on your podcast, right? [00:45:45] Remo_Kyburz: it will be in the show notes as well so people can click on the link [00:45:48] Anjali_Beharelle: So Collabree .com or they can find us on LinkedIn, or if they'd like to test out the app, they could also shoot us an email or have any questions at hello@collabree.com. [00:45:59] Remo_Kyburz: Perfect I'll also include all of that in the show notes So yeah Thank you again Anjali and all the best [00:46:05] Anjali_Beharelle: Yeah, thanks so much. It was really great to talk to you Remo. Outro [00:46:08] Remo Kyburz: Hey, before you go. I just want to ask you for a very small favor. If you get any value out of this podcast, please quickly head over to the Apple podcast store or wherever you are listening to this and give the Leap Takers podcast a positive rating. It just takes 10 seconds. This would really help me to get more visible and I'll be able to continuously bring on great guests to the show. If you want to do even more, you can now easily donate something to support with the costs of this podcast. Just go to Leaptakers.com and you see a coffee mug at the bottom of the page. If you click on it, you can donate a small amount as much as you want. Like buying me a coffee. Which helps me to cover the costs of this podcast, like hosting, editing tools, et cetera. Thank you so much. As always, if you have any feedback or want to get in touch. Just shoot me a message. You can find all my contact info as well as all social channels on Leaptakers.com. Thanks again for listening. And until next time bye-bye.