? DUANE: Thanks for joining me for episode 66, the growing years of the appellate practice section. This show is again sponsored by court surety bond agency, the nation's leading surety agency specializing in supersedeas bonds. More about CSBA later in the show. In this episode, I'm joined by Appellate Specialist Hala Sandridge to discuss the slightly later years, let's say the maturation of the Appellate Practice Section. This episode is part of the Section's Oral History Project to celebrate its 30th anniversary. The goal of the project is to preserve the Section's rich history with interviews from the folks who were actually there. This will be a continuing series, and is also available on the section's website. My discussion with Hala Sandridge is coming up next. In this installment of the APS Oral History Project, I'm joined by Appellate Specialist Hala Sandridge. In fact, Hala is one of the original board certified appellate attorneys in the first group that was certified in 1994 and Hala also served as the eighth chair of the section in the 2001 2002 bar year. Hala, thanks for joining me to help preserve some of the section's history by talking with the folks who were there. HALA: Thanks, Duane, for giving me this opportunity. DUANE: So, what is your earliest memories of your involvement in the section? HALA: My earliest memories are George Vaca, who was one of the original founders of the section and was my partner at Fowler White Boggs, telling me about his involvement and urging me to get involved in the section. And I did. I thought it was a great idea. I was trying to get my name out there as an appellate specialist and thought that working with a lot of, uh, fellow appellate practitioners would help me get to know everybody and become more specialized in appellate practice. DUANE: So about what year would you say that was that you started becoming a regular at the section events? HALA: Ooh, I would say so I think the section was formed in 93 I would say within a next year or so of the section being formed. I got Very very involved. DUANE: And what was the membership like in those early years how many people would show up for meetings and such? HALA: You know, it wasn't like it is nowadays with um, 50 people being at the meetings. I would say we Had 20 Um, maybe 25 generally attending the appellate practice section meetings. DUANE: What was it that, uh, inspired you to get under the leadership track and really decide that you wanted to, to, you know, become a leader of the section? HALA: You know, it's. Kind of shocking to me as I was preparing for this and I saw that, um, I was treasurer in 1997 and I was 25 years ago that I became involved in leadership and I can't even get over that fact. Um, but you know, preparing for this interview brought back really great memories of the Early years of the section and, um, the importance of being a leader in the section. So I think why I wanted to get involved in leadership is because the section was still forming at that time. I mean, if you think about it, I became treasurer in 1997. That was. After the section had just been formed and there was a lot of work to do in this section and the idea of being involved in those initial efforts and getting the work done appealed to me, no pun intended. And so I just. Dove in, um, and got very involved from the beginning. DUANE: You know, in the more recent years, we haven't had a lot of concerns about membership numbers because membership numbers have been very strong. But was that I'm assuming that that was a lot more of a concern back then is building up this base of membership. HALA: Oh, it was. I remember that almost every single meeting we had, there was a discussion about how we increase membership. Yeah. It was a really important issue for us for obvious reasons. Um, we needed the dues in order to have the funds we needed to grow the section and do all the events that we wanted. Um, we wanted the recognition. We wanted to grow in a way that, um, gave us a robust section that people wanted to join and thought that there would be value joining. So we spent a lot of time on Ways to increase membership. And if you really think about it, appellate attorneys are a smaller number of our bar, right? It's unlike trial attorneys. I don't know what the section size is for trial attorneys, but it's got to be so much greater than appellate attorneys. So we needed a self sustaining number of members to, you know, be a section and offer the programs that we wanted to offer and create the camaraderie. We wanted amongst the statewide practitioners and really and the education, right? I mean if you don't have enough folks who are members of the bar Who are you going to be educating? How many programs can you offer? So we did a number of things Um one that I remember was to focus on government lawyers and younger lawyers We noticed that we had a lot of civil practitioners in, in the section originally, and so we thought it might make sense since there's so many government appellate lawyers to reach out to them, and we also thought that it made sense to not just focus on established appellate practitioners, but the younger attorneys who were just getting involved and wanting to how to become a great appellate attorney. So there was a lot of emphasis on programs to attract those groups. And interestingly, you know, that kind of morphed into the question of how do we then develop the next generation in section participation and moving up the leadership ranks, right? So we're going to bring in these people. We need them to stay, we need them to get involved. And how do we do that? It was interesting because I was listening to Tony Musto's, um, oral history before this one. And I, I finally learned why we had such a lengthy ladder to climb to get up to the leadership rank of chair. And I think we had like five different officer positions. And I remember thinking, my God, this is exhausting, right? You, you, you spent years before you became a chair in the officer positions. And apparently what that was about is when they... formed the section, there were several people that needed to be in leadership, uh, positions. And so I guess that's why they created so many officer spots. But after a while, um, we realized that it was daunting to a lot of the young people to look at this and go, well, first I have to be involved in CLE and then I have to be involved in programs and then I have to be involved in publications. And then I get invited to go up to leadership rank. And, you know, after 15 years, I'm going to be chair of the section. So we worked really hard on shortening that and, um, making it a little bit easier to get involved in leadership. And the other thing I think that we did that helped with, um, membership and, um, bringing up the next generation is starting mentorship programs, making sure that we had outreach to make, um, young lawyers feel welcome and included and, um, giving them a reason to stick around. DUANE: I'm curious because this was, you know, all sort of before my, my involvement. I don't, uh, I really don't have much recollection until. Your chair year a little bit afterwards when I first started getting involved, but I'm wondering in those, in those early years, was there, um, was there a geographical component to this? I mean, a lot of the founders, you know, were sort of Miami, South Florida based. And it seems like, I mean, there was, uh, Tom Elegant, but it seemed like, You know, was Tampa as strong, uh, an influence in the section as it became later, Tampa and Tallahassee, did it sort of start south and move up or is that, uh, do you not recall it that way? HALA: That's a great question. And, um, while I think a lot of the effort. Came out of South Florida. I never felt as though this was a South Florida click or, um, in any way limited to the South Florida appellate attorneys. And I think that's because if you think about it, Duane, and I'm sure you feel this way, our practices statewide. I practice not only in the second D. C. A. And now a lot in the 60 C. A. But in the fourth D. C. A. The Florida Supreme Court. And of course, in the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, so our appellate attorneys have always spanned statewide, and I've never felt as though it was exclusive to South Florida. DUANE: Yeah, no, for sure. And, you know, the, but these concerns, I guess, about diversity of membership are things that we still look at today. Are we getting people from all over the state? Are we getting people from the government? You know, are we getting, People in big firms and small firms. And so it's, uh, it's, uh, one of the things I've noticed as I do these appellate, uh, section history is that it's sort of the same as it ever was. Like a lot of the concerns from the beginning are still, they shift a little bit, but a lot of the stuff kind of remains the same, it just morphs over time. It's, it's very interesting. HALA: It's true. And, um, here's the good news is how much we've succeeded. I mean, when I think about our membership in 1997 compared to our membership today, it shows that our efforts have paid off. And so we definitely have increased membership. I see so many young attorneys involved now. I don't even know who they are. And that just makes me. I think to myself, Oh my God, we're succeeding, you know, we're bringing in all these new young appellate attorneys who are jazzed about the idea of being part of the section and learning, um, and growing and, um, creating their, their own specialty. I, it's very exciting to see our success. DUANE: Today's show is sponsored by Court Surety Bond Agency, the nation's leading surety agency specializing in supersedious bonds. If you have a client needing to stay enforcement of a judgment in Florida or any other state or federal court, contact CSBA. Chances are you don't deal with appellate bonds on a daily basis, but when you do, it's important and it's urgent. CSBA has an extensive collection of educational and reference materials on their website. Including articles like how much does an appeal bond cost or using real estate to secure appeal bonds and even as a state by state guide to appeal bond requirements. But if you still have questions or just want to talk to a knowledgeable appellate bond specialist, call CSBA at 877 810 5525. Their contact information is always in the show notes, but I suggest you take an opportunity right now to add their contact information to your own contact list. So you're ready the next time your client needs a court bond. CSBA is a national agency that assists with court bonds all over the United States, but has extensive experience in Florida. In addition to being a long time sponsor of this podcast, CSBA is a premier sponsor of the Florida Bar's Appellate Practice Section. The next time your client needs a supersedeas bond, please give Court Surety Bond Agency a call. These folks are experts in this area. They'll guide you and your client through the process. And one of the things that happened when you were chair was the section had its first retreat and I, I had to, I had to look this up because I had no idea where, I guess it was Hutchinson Island, which I also had to look at on a map to find, sorry about that, but, so tell me a little bit about the thought process of why, why we decided we wanted to do a retreat and sort of what the, what the goals were. HALA: Sure, so, um, let me step back for a second and tell you what I think the retreats are part of. So, we talked a little bit about our, our statewide practice and the fact that we work with appellate attorneys from every city and every part of Florida. And I think that the section wanted to create that statewide camaraderie amongst our Florida appellate bar. And, and by the way, I think we've, We've succeeded in a grand way. Um, we truly have such a great appellate bar in Florida, and we all work so well together, whether as co counsel or on opposing side. I think we've accomplished what we set out to accomplish. So there were many different tools that Were employed by the section to make that happen and I think our retreats were probably one of the best Um, but also the most complicated way of creating camaraderie because there's a lot of effort that goes into it and I will tell you that I probably planned five of our first retreats. The last retreat I did was the one in Washington DC. Uh, I haven't done one since then. And, and they've gone on to grander retreats like London than what I was involved in. We've got, we've come a long way from Hutchinson Island to London. Um, but I was involved in the programming and the planning of those retreats. We initially brought in, um, some really great consultants, And almost every single retreat that I've been involved in, we were involved in planning our future. Uh, where are we now? What do we want to accomplish and how do we get there? So early on, it was about membership. Later on, it might've been about mentoring, but we always spent a lot of time working to develop, you know, where we are and who we want to be and how are we going to get there. I would say that if you looked back at our old, um, planning that we did, you would be impressed by how much it's paid off. So, the value of the retreats, I think, was for the section to plan for its future. The second benefit of the retreats was the camaraderie that it created. Um, I mean, I think about the one in Key West. Being in the bars late at night, listening to music, hanging out with your appellate peeps, um, whether it's, you know, eating lobster dockside and watching a glorious sunset or talking to judges, for instance, that you didn't know from other DCAs. I think the retreats really brought people together and made them closer and made our appellate bar, just a better bar to practice in. Our retreats are probably the best example of creating that camaraderie, but I think there's a couple of other efforts I'd like to mention, and I already did. Um, one of them is including our appellate judges in the section effort. So initially, we did not have judges involved in the appellate practice section, and over a period of time, I recall that we asked Every dca in the supreme court to have a liaison and that's really been a big benefit We also started the conference. Um, we started participating in the conference of the district court of appeal judges Where I think every other year now we are invited to attend we hold a reception Great camaraderie amongst the appellate attorneys and also getting to know the appellate judges a couple other things that I thought were camaraderie building opportunities is the appellate dessert reception. And I know Tony talked about that in his podcast and didn't realize he was so involved in creating, which I think is one of the best traditions of the appellate practice section. You know, not only did it bring us together at a statewide event, but it put the section on the map for the event itself. And I guess, you know, the fact that we geeky appellate attorneys actually can have fun. Um, you know, a couple other things that I, I believe really helped with building that camaraderie is, um, a lot of dinners that were hosted. So I don't know if you remember Steve Brannick and his wife would host a dinner at their house. Um, folks were playing the guitar and instruments and you know, there's nothing like breaking bread with your fellow appellate attorneys to really get to know each other. And make it a lot easier on everybody when you are facing each other, um, across the bench or the podium After you have gotten to know each other really well. Tony mentioned the chair's reception That was another one that I think has now moved to uh, Wednesday night Of the annual bar convention, but that's a great time for it Appellate attorneys to get together and to meet each other and know each other and then, of course, our anniversary dinners when we've held those to celebrate all our accomplishments and further build on that camaraderie. DUANE: We've, um, we've done a really great job with that. Yeah, I agree with that. And those are all great examples of, you know, we get together as a section. We do things that are important and we. We do CLE and we do that sort of thing, but we also do fun things and I think we all enjoy being together, you know, and we, we have the, the chair's reception and then there's like sort of the post chair's reception where people get together and, you know, for late night, uh, uh, events and a party and that sort of thing. And yeah, the, the section has always been good about that. It's always been pretty inclusive about, you know, pulling people in and trying to get, you know, the. The new people in so there's always, you know, sort of a new crop of people who are excited about the section and involved in the section. And, and just to reiterate what you were saying, also the judges, you know, some of the best things we do, or when we, when we are able to, uh, pull in the judges and get them involved in the section and, and so that you get to know, uh, appellate judges on a, on a more personal level and get to have some. Thank you. Some, uh, rapport with them. Uh, it's fantastic. And I don't see that in other sections. So I think that we're, we're lucky that our appellate community, you know, that the judiciary is pretty open to us and willing to participate and to, you know, sort of get, get down and more personal with the, with the membership, uh, because that's, um, You know, it's enriching, it's enriching, I think, for the membership and it makes everybody feel like they are a part of this community and that, that's what makes it a fun place to practice. HALA: Yeah, I agree. Talk to me a little bit about the efforts of the section made to have appellate practitioners viewed as specialists, as something other than just litigators, right? As people were actually specializing in a recognized field. I know that that was something that was a, was a concern of the section. It was and it's it's funny talking about it now because you don't feel the same way after 25 years right of Accomplishing what we've accomplished in this section, but I can tell you I remember this so clearly That we were so concerned about making sure that the rest of the bar bought into the the fact that we considered ourselves to be specialists and that we added value to um trial attorneys practices and reasons why you should hire an appellate attorney. So I think one of the biggest helps was when the Florida bar announced that there was going to be board certification and appellate practice. I mean, that went a long way to making sure that we were recognized as specialists. And I sat for the first. Um, bar exam. I'm sorry, not bar exam. Uh, cert review exam in 1994 and I can tell you it was the wild wild west. There was no study material. Um, these brave test test takers were only told that the exam would encompass All appellate matters so that included civil that included criminal it included workers comp family law You name it. I remember. Um, I was in an appellate group at fowler white boggs At that time period and um, we had a bunch of appellate attorneys george Vodka bonnie brown nancy lawton chuck hall and myself and we all sat for the appellate exam in 1994 and being the person I am, I had all these notes and I prepared a notebook and I shared it with all of them. And all five of us were in that first class that received their board certification. Um, I think in fact, in, in 1994, Fowler Whitebogs had the highest number of board certified appellate specialists for quite a number of years, actually. But that certification really helped all of us shape our practice and Further the mission of getting us to be recognized as a specialist in our field. Another thing that I remember we did Is we wrote all these articles on why you need to be an appellate specialist. So We had them in the florida bar journal Um, we would put them wherever we could that trial attorneys would read about the reasons that They should bring in a pellet specialist and what we brought to the process. And, I don't know if this is silly, but I remember that we were even, we may have paid to do this, but develop slogans. Such as, um, there was one slogan out there which is, Got Milk? I don't know if you remember that slogan out there. And so we were like, Got Appellate Attorney? There was, there was another one. That you remember the saying who's your daddy? We had one which was who's your appellate attorney. I mean it it I don't know if it's silly But I can tell you that back then Being recognized as specialists was a big part of our efforts and we um undertook a lot to make sure that we were, and I'd like to say that we're not even thinking about it, right, in this day and age. And, and I will tell you, because I'm part of a national firm that has offices all throughout the country, what we've accomplished is a big deal. Other states where we have offices, they're so shocked when they learned that We have appellate attorneys who specialize in just handling appeals that it is recognized by the Florida Bar as a specialty and that you can receive your certification. The Florida, the appellate practice section of the Florida Bar should really be proud of what it's accomplished. DUANE: Yeah, that is a great point. I think that we take that for granted, right? Because the, the work has been done and, and, and even you, you know, the work has been done so long ago, you know, we, we, we, we forget that, uh, you know, it wasn't that long ago that this sort of thing did not. Was just not recognized and make sense that other states, uh, don't, don't have the level of sophistication that we do, I guess, as far as recognizing an appellate advocacy as a, as a specialty. Yeah, no, that is important. And I do think mission accomplished, right? I mean, you can never rest on your laurels, right? We have to keep, uh, keep pushing that point, but boy, I do think that, that that point is pretty well established now. And I think most trial lawyers recognize that, that, that, uh, Appellate is a specialty and it's not necessarily what they do and that there is a market for trial support and appellate lawyers. HALA: You know, Duane the appellate support Um for trials is Really what astonishes me the most, I mean, not the fact when there's a win or loss in a case, you bring in an appellate attorney to handle it, but how our trial attorneys statewide now in, in big cases, um, whether it's from Uh, you know, a policy issue or a monetary issue. They're bringing in the trial attorneys, uh, before the trial happens to handle the motions in limine and the jury verdict forms and the jury instructions and sometimes sit through the trial and help with preserving error for appeal. It really is amazing the job we've done to, uh, bring in that type of recognition for appellate practitioners. DUANE: Now, in 1995, um, soon after the section was formed, um, the section started awarding the James C. Adkins Award to recognize people who had made significant contributions in the field of appellate practice, and it really became one of the section's signature awards. And I discussed that in some detail with Tony, but the section is also known for its annual pro bono award. That started a little bit later, um, in 2003, can you talk about how the pro bono award came to be? HALA: I can, and I'm proud to say that it was my idea. So a little bit of background on the pro bono award. I've always been heavily involved in pro bono efforts, and I have some theories why this is, but it seems to me that appellate attorneys are very generous with their pro bono efforts. And when I was chair, I felt it was an It was important for the section to recognize these efforts and I asked the executive council to start a pro bono award and I'm really, like I said, proud of this initiative and I'm proud of the persons who have received this award. If you go to our sections website and you look at that list, you will. Be amazed at the attorneys who have so generously given of their time to handle pro bono matters and, and I will say I'm particularly proud that we have now named the award after John Hamilton. I think he's one of the finest pro bono attorneys that I ever knew. In fact, small world story, after John passed, I was, uh, scoring submissions for the Florida Bar Foundation Awards to be given for pro bono projects, and I'm going through one of the projects, and sure enough, John Hamilton handled the project that I was scoring. I mean, this was... Shortly after his death and I, I believe it won that one of the top prizes, but in any event, you know, John, John's pro bono work, it, it demonstrates the amazing pro bono legacy of appellate practitioners in our state and I have to say it makes me proud. So I'm thrilled that every year we honor one of our, uh, sections members for their Pro bono efforts. DUANE: Yeah, I didn't want to name the award because I wanted to leave that for you. But I do think that's important. You know, John Hamilton was one of the, uh, he received the award in 2007. So he was one of the early winners. But originally we just called it the pro bono award. And after his, uh, untimely death. Um, we, we renamed that award in his favor, which I thought was a fantastic idea. A great homage to John. HALA: Yeah, very well deserved, very well deserved. DUANE: Well, Hala, as always, there's, there's so much to cover in the section's history that we can only, uh, you know, uh, scratch a little bit of the surface from time to time. And we're, we're trying to You know, sort of identify individuals from different eras, uh, of the section. So I'm really appreciate you, uh, spending your time with us today to share some of these. I don't know if I'd call them the middle years or sort of the late early years of the section. So thank you so much for, for your time and for your efforts with the section over the years. HALA: Thanks, Duane. I really enjoyed this trip down memory lane. DUANE: Remember, podcasts are never legal advice, and nothing that I say or my guests say should ever be interpreted as legal advice for any particular situation. But if you're a lawyer who needs the help of an appellate lawyer, I'm happy to try and help. Please also consider using our sponsor, Court Surety Bond Agency, for your client's appellate bond needs. When you need a bond, you often need it quickly. CSPA's contact information is in the show notes. Please take a moment, add it to your contacts so you're ready when you need a supersedious bond. There'll be at least a couple more episodes on the section's history, and probably some other stuff coming soon. I hope that you will continue to download and listen.