Alexandra Hughes:
Welcome to season three of the ASCA Viewpoints podcast. The podcast where we talk about the student conduct profession, and higher education. I'm Alexandra Hughes, your Viewpoints host.

Alexandra Hughes:
Hey everyone, and welcome back to the ASCA Viewpoints podcast. I'm your host, as always, Alexandra Hughes. Oh, my goodness. It has only been one month since I put out the last episode, and my how everything has changed. In case you didn't know, we are in the middle of a global pandemic. I'm not even going to lie. Last month, I truly didn't feel scared at all. Now, I wash my hands after touching any object in my house. I haven't seen my friends in weeks, and I truly believe that Lysol is the new seasonal 2020 spring high-end perfume fragrance, okay?

Alexandra Hughes:
We've all been engaging in higher education in a way that's unlike anything else that we've ever had to do before. Socially distancing from each other; that's new. We have been, and we're going to be spending a lot of time online. I know that we all cringe at online, and the craziness that comes from it, but there's so much amazing stuff that's coming from online: Super-fast information, the ability to FaceTime friends, happy hour and workout classes on Zoom, free access to learn new things, take new classes. I have to say, some pretty cool ones, if I say so myself.

Alexandra Hughes:
I'll be perfectly honest. I've struggled with this month with what to say about student conduct and COVID-19, and how much I should talk about it. Quite frankly, we are just inundated with it from the moment that we wake up, from the moment that we go to sleep. If you're anything like me, that also includes three or four hours of just laying in the bed, wishing that you could go to sleep, and you haven't been able to sleep until you get up the next day way more tired than how you were when you went to bed at night. Yeah, that's me.

Alexandra Hughes:
I think in student affairs fashion we have to acknowledge it. We have to acknowledge it, and address it because it's real. Overnight, we have changed the ways that we do conduct. I mean, those of us that are teachers have had to redesign classes. Those of us that are students are trying to figure out how all of this work. We are shifting policies, and I mean everything. I have done a check-in with my students in my role as a professor. I've asked them how they are. I think we see so many people who appear like they have it together. We think they do, and we think we should too, and we just don't.

Alexandra Hughes:
To all of my fellow student conduct professionals who are listening today, if no one has asked you, I am going to be the one that says, "Hey. How are you?" I'm going to check in with you right now, in this moment, because I don't think people ask us enough. So, how are you? How are you doing? I will start. I'll be honest. I am completely exhausted. Trauma is something that is extremely interesting. As student conduct professionals, we recognize it in a lot of these hard cases that we deal with. Involving sexual assault, and other horrendous things, but I don't think we realize it in ourselves. That we have a natural fight-or-flight response.

Alexandra Hughes:
We can't fight this thing, and we can't run from it either, so I think that we have a freeze response that is really showing itself... as I talk to my friends, as I talk to my colleagues... we're tired. I want to acknowledge that first, but I also want to say that I'm very thankful in my ability to work from home, and be safe. I don't think that these ideas have to be mutually exclusive. In that we can be both tired, and worried, but grateful at the same time. For me, I'm going to ask us to give ourselves grace during this time to figure all of this out.

Alexandra Hughes:
My mother always would tell me something growing up. Whenever I had an insurmountable task she would say, "Alex, it's like an elephant. Alexandra, this is what you need to do. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time." That's all you can do. It seems silly if you think about it, but if you think about it, really and truly, eating an elephant seems almost impossible. If you have to do it, the only way that you can is to do it one bite at a time. That's all that we can do. I want to give you that as we move forward over this next month, to just take it one bite at a time, one day at a time, one hour at a time, one minute at a time. Give yourself grace, because trust me, it is okay. We're going to make mistakes.

Alexandra Hughes:
I had a professor ask me yesterday, "How do you do this?" I was like, "I don't know what the policy would be for something like this, because we've never had to do it before. But, I figured it out, and I promise you, you will figure it out too." I know that we are all so concerned about so many things. Our loved ones, in both a professional sense, and at a personal level. What everyone is dealing with, because every single one of us has very different stories about who, what, where, when, and why, and how this COVID-19 is affecting us. More than anything I just want to share love right now with each and every one of you listening. I think that we can all use a bit more of that right now.

Alexandra Hughes:
I realized when I did this interview last month with Tony... Tony Miller Jr., to be exact... neither one of us knew how bad it was going to get. I actually think the information that he gives is extremely helpful. Tony talks about the pathway sanctions, and how they can help. To be honest, I think the creativity behind some of his sanctioning ideas is exactly what we need right now. Let me tell you a bit about Tony, who I interviewed on the show, just so you have a background for this amazing person who really was gracious in sharing his time with us.

Alexandra Hughes:
Tony Miller Jr. serves as the Director of Student Conduct & Deputy Title IX Coordinator at the University Of Montevallo in Alabama. Tony believes in engaging students by creating an educational atmosphere that facilitates their academic and personal goals. He believes this leads to a healthy, safe, productive, and fun college experience. Tony is a firm believer in relationship before regulation, and education before adjudication. Tony has worked at the University of Memphis, and Southern Methodist University, located in Dallas, Texas. Tony's goal is to work with students to help them bring their actions into congruence with their values. Tony gives us some great ways to think about our sanctioning, our students, and more so in a creative context.

Alexandra Hughes:
Maybe you'll hear this and you'll be furious that our voices are too relaxed, or maybe that the tone of our conversation isn't panicked enough, or maybe that I, right now, in this moment, and in this voice recording is not as panicked as you think that I should be, or maybe that I'm too panicked. Please keep in mind that all of us are taking this day-by-day. That means Tony. That means me. That means you. I would say just about every single other human on this planet, we are all taking this day-by-day. We're all adjusting to new information, and just making the best choices we can from the only vantage point that we know, which is our own.

Alexandra Hughes:
What we said a month ago will not match what I'm going to say today, and most likely will be outdate a month from now. To simply put it, we are all going through it. With that being said, please stay safe, please keep up-to-date with verified information. Please take care of the people around you. Please remember to give yourself grace. To feel what is going on, and know that you can do this, because you are going to eat this elephant one bit at a time. Tony's passion is incredible. His excitement is contagious. I think this episode will provide you with some of the reprieve that you may need. Stay tuned, everyone.

Alexandra Hughes:
Hi, everyone. I hope that everyone's doing well today. I have a special guest on our show. Tony? Hi, Tony.

Tony Miller Jr.:
How are you?

Alexandra Hughes:
I'm good. How are you?

Tony Miller Jr.:
I'm doing great.

Alexandra Hughes:
You're doing great? Welcome to the ASCA Viewpoints podcast. We are so extremely excited to have you today. We are going to be talking about some great things today. The first thing that I want to do, which is what we do for all of our listeners, and all of our guests on our show, is really just ask you about who you are. We want to hear about your student affairs journey, and what you do now, and how you got there.

Tony Miller Jr.:
All right. Obviously, my name's Tony Miller Jr. I'm a proud native of Augusta, Georgia. My student affairs journey: starting out it's like everybody. You don't know what student affairs is. Then, you go to college. When I went, I wanted to be the next Johnny Cochran, so I majored in political sciences to get ready for law school. Clearly, didn't become a lawyer, but happenstance, I actually met the vice president for student affairs at my undergrad, Georgia Southwestern State University, while playing racquetball. He took me under his wings, and mentored me, and opened the doors of really being an RA, which obviously was my introduction to students affairs.

Tony Miller Jr.:
We continue that relationship, honestly, until this day. I became an RA, was an RA for two years. In my senior year I became a hall director in the Freshman Residence Hall. I served as ASCA president for two years. President of the largest known Greek organization on our campus; Student African Brotherhood. Did that for two years, and did a lot of different things as a student leader on campus.

Tony Miller Jr.:
When it came time for grad school, continuing to talk to him about his career, and how he got to where he got to, one thing he told me. He said, "Look, there are two areas in student affairs that our colleagues avoid because they're tough. They're good experiences, and they can help you be a VP one day." I asked him, "What are they?" He said, "No, financial aid." This was back in 2013. He said, "Judicial affairs." I'm looking, and I'm applying before graduate school, things like that. I get on as a graduate hall director at the University of Memphis.

Tony Miller Jr.:
Me personally, I looked at student conduct to be the lesser of the two evils. That's how I got into student conduct. While I was at the University of Memphis, the associate dean of student conduct, he allowed me to do an unofficial internship in his office. Then, during my last semester there I actually did an official internship there. That's how I got into student conduct. I graduated and applied for a coordinator for student conduct job at SMU, Souther Methodist University, for those that don't know the acronym. I was there for three years in Dallas, Texas. They've been doing a lot of great things while I was there.

Tony Miller Jr.:
In May 2018, I was offered the job of Director of Student Conduct & Deputy Title IX Coordinator for students at the University of Montevallo, in Montevallo, Alabama, which is about 40 minutes south of Birmingham, Alabama. I'm in year two there, and enjoying it. Yeah, that's how I got to where I am. That's my student affairs journey, and continuing to live the higher ed dream.

Alexandra Hughes:
I liked your student affair story. That's right. I think it's interesting. I think the feat that a lot of people have behind student conduct, and judicial affairs, we once called it, and what that is. I think it is something that's scary, right? It is. There's a lot of policy involved, a lot of law involved. A lot of decisions in liability that have to be made. If you do it, and you do it well, and you have fun with it then I think that you can definitely make an impact. I like to hear your story. I think you have a very good one, to say the least.

Alexandra Hughes:
Okay, then tell me this. You picked judicial affairs, which is now student conduct. What are some things that you're passionate about when it comes to student conduct?

Tony Miller Jr.:
I think the most passionate thing for me when it comes to student conduct, really, the sanctioning. I'm passionate about outreach, again, because I'm going to change the connotation of student conduct, and what people think student conduct means, and what we do on a daily basis. Including our colleagues, but even student conduct assessment, and then even the mentorship in our profession. My two biggest passions in student conduct would be the sanctioning, and student conduct assessments. Really, how we tell our story, and how it pertains to assessment, of course. Then, as far as the sanctioning, How we can meet our students where they are, instead of sometimes trying to drag them to where we think they should be. Those would be my two biggest passion points, or passion areas in our profession.

Alexandra Hughes:
Okay, so it seems like you're definitely in the right profession if you like sanctioning people, because that's where we are, and that's what we do. I think sanctioning can, a lot of times, be scary. Especially for new professionals who are in our field. I think there's a reality of those who don't work in student conduct. They say, "Wow, look. You have the power to expel somebody, or suspend somebody." I often use this phrase, "To whom much is given, much is expected." When it comes to this idea of this "power," it's understanding that, that same power to suspend or expel a student can really make the difference in somebody's life. The things that maybe their parents sacrificed for them, or the things that would happen for their future generation. It's definitely not something to take lightly.

Alexandra Hughes:
Even when it comes to sanctioning, I know that there's traditional sanctioning practices. Then, different types of sanctioning. Could you maybe talk about the different types? What we see in a historical way, and maybe what our field is moving to.

Tony Miller Jr.:
Yes. The model code, sanctioning things that we usually see is, they come in, have a conversation. Student conduct officer. They accept responsibility, or the preponderance of the evidence standard is met, and they are found responsible. We sanction. You're responsible. You are a reprimand, a formal warning, on probation. Whatever the structure of the sanctioning model, and the lingo is for that particular office. Then, you tell them what they're going to do. Whether it's a fine, taking an online module, parental modifications, this essay, that essay, do this do that. That's pretty much it. Through the conversation, you're hoping that the educational piece is there, and you're hoping that the student is able to get one thing from that.

Tony Miller Jr.:
We're starting to see restorative justice just take off, and do a lot of different things. I think when you dive into people's philosophies on sanctioning, I think that's where you see where the profession is going, and see what we're doing. I think I like sanctioning so much because I've been able to be creative, and innovative with it in trying to meet our students where they are. Regardless, if the world does not know Millennials... For the most part, we're not in college... I mean, actually, Gen Z.

Tony Miller Jr.:
They're a lot different than we, Millennials, are. I'm trying to really make things relevant to them. One of our biggest philosophies as student conduct professionals is really creating an engaging environment for those student so they can go out there and live a safe, an enjoyable campus life, but being held accountable. Following the rules of our community. I'm a big stickler for relationship before regulation, and education before adjudication. With that approach, it opens up a bit more for my ability to be in relationships with students, and to do what I do.

Tony Miller Jr.:
When I was at SMU, we began a sanctioning model that we'd say has not been done by a lot of live universities. At least not to our knowledge. During my second year at SMU, my supervisor, Dr. Evelyn Ashley, she wanted to adapt our sanctioning to better serve our student population. Restorative justice, as I said earlier, was becoming more and more popular. Everybody was doing it. It was a new buzzword. Doing this thing in K through 12, but we knew that our students weren't ready for that style. They would not want to see how them smoking weed in the student parking center was impacting Alex in her residence hall, and how it was impacting the community. We were like, "We're not going to do that."

Tony Miller Jr.:
Our students, they're bold, they're very entrepreneurial-minded, and they wanted everything to be relevant to them. My supervisor, she saw one school that, technically used, they sanctioned based on five pillars they came up with. She wanted us to take it a little further, and dive deeper. I was given the opportunity to lead the charge with that in that process, and make something happen, and we did.

Tony Miller Jr.:
I guess that's what we're really here to talk about today, is that sanctioning model which we call the Pathway Plan Sanctioning Model. Another reason we went to that model is because, too often students use sanctioning that's predetermined punishments for violating policy. Understanding that, we created something where we could work with the student and have a conversation, and work more collaboratively with them to try to help change the connotation, and the perception of the office of student conduct, and community standards at SMU. That's what we pretty much did.

Tony Miller Jr.:
If I dive into it, I guess the big difference with that is, we allow those students to choose their educational sanctions. That's something that, when we talk to different student conduct professionals, they're like, "Whoa, wait a minute. You do what?" Then, we dive into it, and they understand what we're doing. They like the idea, and then we tell them, "We do this, we do this. We allow them to do that." We also explain how we still technically have control of the process, but at the same time, help the student learn and grow through the Pathway Plan sanctioning model.

Alexandra Hughes:
Okay. Then, let's talk about that some. If you actually go to SMU's website... I've spent some time on their website, to say the least. I think it's very fascinating... the idea that you can choose different types of sanctions. From what I have seen on there, of course you have your traditional ones. Like, a reflection paper, and that type of stuff. Then, there's also things like choosing to listen to TED Talks, a letter to your future self, consequences worksheets, decisions like... These are really creative things, and I would actually encourage any of our listeners. If you haven't seen it, they actually have a lot of stuff published on their website, to go look, or of course, to get in touch with Tony. We'll share his info later.

Alexandra Hughes:
I think it's really cool to see the options. How did you guys come up with these different, really creative sanctionings, and then why?

Tony Miller Jr.:
What we did, we had a former assistant director who was really big on restorative justice. She left to be a director at another university in the Dallas area. We were, again, trying to meet students and see where they were. We just were thinking, "Okay, what do we want to accomplish? What do we want to achieve? If we're sanctioning students, and actually working with students, how do we do that through the sanctioning model?" One that, I don't know if it's on SMU's website... I don't even know if it's on my website at the University of Montevallo. I have it on my website as well.

Tony Miller Jr.:
One thing that we created was the potential student conduct questionnaire, or employer questionnaire. Our biggest mindset, or our biggest goal that was to really help students who were placed on probation, or higher, be able to explain, to be able to prepare them for the questions on the graduate school applications. If they got asked those questions in an interview, or a job application, why should I hire Alex or Tony... who's had a student conduct violation ... versus this other candidate who's just as great as you on paper but didn't get in any trouble?

Tony Miller Jr.:
I know you've seen it, your career students. They're seniors. They probably got in one or two incidents their freshman year, or their first year there. They're like, "Oh, my God. What do I do? How do I answer this?" We created that to help the 22-year-old Alex be able to explain what she did when she was 18, or 19 so they're not panicking, and so they're already prepared to answer that question. We do a lot of different ideas off of each other. We reached out to other universities to see, what were some of the creative sanctionings they were doing?

Tony Miller Jr.:
The TED Talks, that was one of those things that the former assistant director, she was big on videos. We use videos in our decision-making workshop. We just incorporated that. We went and looked for different videos that we thought would be helpful for our students. We watched them. We came up with different questions, and what we wanted them to get out of it. Trying to work on the learning outcomes, and things of that nature. That's how we got there, in really trying to, once a student gets there, help them understand this is the way that it works.

Tony Miller Jr.:
I know you'll probably ask me how the entire process works a little later, but that's how we got there. Asking a lot of our colleagues what they were doing. Looking at stuff online. As you will see, a lot of those worksheets we created ourselves. One is the pros and cons worksheet, to where you have the student think about the pros and the cons of their decision. Even if a pro may be wrong, or illegal. It's fun. That's a pro of it, but a con could be, obviously, getting into trouble. Then, also showing them the different decision-making paradigms with the right-versus-wrong test, and even the right-versus-right paradigms, and seeing how they make decisions. That's been something.

Tony Miller Jr.:
Letter to future self and the TED Talks, those have always been the most popular. One, who doesn't like TED Talks? The whole concept of letter to future self, you literally get to write a letter to yourself. You ask the student to reflect on their incident, and write a letter to your future self. We'd ask them to date it, read it in six months down the line. Obviously, they would have forgotten about it, but you reflect. You put what you learned, how you've grown from this incident, how you want to continue to grow from the incident.

Tony Miller Jr.:
We also told them, "Don't just talk about the incident. Put your own personal goals in there. Put your academic goals; health, fitness, whatever goal. Put whatever you want to say to yourself in there." They really like that, because it's serves as a self-accountability measure. It's not just me saying, "Do this." They're holding themselves accountable to what they put in that letter to themselves. They can see where, "I wanted to achieve a 3.5 this semester." Looking at, "Did I do it? No," or, "Yes, I did, so now I get to go treat myself to my favorite movie, or my favorite treat."

Tony Miller Jr.:
It's being able to hold themselves accountable, I think is something. I think they might have thought it was one of the easier Pathway Projects of the choices, but it really helped them, and they really were excited about doing it. They didn't see it, I guess, as a sanction, or they didn't see it as [inaudible 00:25:01]. They saw it as something that could really help them move forward.

Alexandra Hughes:
Okay. Okay, so then let's have an example here, okay?

Tony Miller Jr.:
Okay.

Alexandra Hughes:
I'm curious, and I'm sure listeners are very curious about, how do you allow a student to pick a sanction, right?

Tony Miller Jr.:
Yeah.

Alexandra Hughes:
You have a resident, Alex, who was found last night in the residence hall on campus. Let's just say I'm not 21; I'm going to be 19, so I'm not of age. After the police, and all the RAs and everything else, and you get the report, and basically, in short... I threw a party. I had all of the alcohol. I'm talking jello shots. I'm talking about cans. I'm talking about beer pong, everything. It was in my residence hall. On top of alcohol, I was smoking weed. We had a party. How does that conversation go?

Alexandra Hughes:
I'm sure, of course, with stronger sanctions, things that would be expellable offenses, that's a little different. For something like alcohol, some of our smaller ones, how does that conversation go when you allow them to pick their sanction?

Tony Miller Jr.:
Honestly, and that's the good thing about the Pathway Plan sanctioning model, what you do, what you're taught, how you're trained and developed as a student conduct officer, doesn't change much.

Alexandra Hughes:
Okay.

Tony Miller Jr.:
We stress building rapport a little longer, so the typical 30-minute conversation may be stretched out to 45 minutes, to an hour. Depending on, clearly Alex didn't like this incident so that's probably going to be an hour we want to set aside to have that conversation. I would also probably spend about 10 to 15 minutes, versus two to five minutes, getting to know her. Asking her questions, "Hey, where is home for you? What made you choose the university? What are you involved in? What are some things that you like about the university? What were you involved in before you got to the university? What are some things you want to get involved in?" Asking about family. Allow them to share what they want about themselves. As we know, unfortunately, and [inaudible 00:27:11] to work, nine times out of 10, the first time we meet a student, that's them getting in trouble.

Alexandra Hughes:
Right.

Tony Miller Jr.:
Unless we're intentional about outreaching with our office, and things of that nature. They're coming in nervous. They're coming in on the defensive, not really knowing what to expect. Being able to talk about themselves really helps serve as an icebreaker, ease some of the angst they may have. It also helps us find some common ground, some commonalities that we may have. Ultimately, it helps the conversation we're here to have go a bit smoother. I tell all my students that I believe in giving them the benefit of the doubt, until they give me a reason not to. Regardless of if they were the ring leader, or in the wrong place at the wrong time, I know there's a lot more to Alex than this one incident. I tell them I would want that same grace bestowed upon me if I were sitting in their seat.

Tony Miller Jr.:
Once we get past all that and I explain the process, and I talk about putting the pieces of the puzzle together... I have my spiel, I know you have your spiel. All of our colleagues have our spiel. You ask the questions, you have the conversations, just like you would in the traditional model, and however you do your thing. What changes with this particular sanctioning model is, once it becomes time for sanctioning, the way it works you have five pathways. You have the accountability pathway, the understanding pathway, the perspective pathway, the restorative pathway, and the well being pathway.

Tony Miller Jr.:
As it pertains to the accountability pathway, that's where the student conduct officer... Those are the administrative sanctions where... the fines, the conduct status. That's the stuff that we're going to do. Honestly, with this model, if there is a particular pathway project that we want students to complete, we can throw that in there. We're still in control of the meeting.

Tony Miller Jr.:
The way it works is, Alex comes in, we have a conversation and she accepts responsibility. That's the key thing. She has to accept responsibility in order to go and do the whole pathway planning, and choose her own pathway projects. If she's like, "Nope, I didn't do it," okay. We're going to go back to old school, and I'm going to assign you the pathway projects that I think you deserve to do based on the behavior you exhibited. Instead of having the accountability pathway, and then whatever the two or three things that I have you do with your status; fines or whatever. Then, the next pathway that the student will select under those, you're just going to have the accountability pathway. That's going to be me holding you accountable.

Tony Miller Jr.:
Once Alex accepts responsibility, we have a booklet that we actually give them. It's been joked upon to be, I guess, the Cheesecake Factory menu.

Alexandra Hughes:
So much stuff. It is.

Tony Miller Jr.:
So many options, right? We tell them, "Hey. I'm going to take care of all the pathway projects, and the accountability pathway. Now, you have the opportunity to select these four remaining." What the student would do, we have the explanation. A little blurb explaining what the pathway projects will lend itself to in the understanding pathway. A better understanding about information. Persuade them to get a different perspective, and so on.

Tony Miller Jr.:
Alex chooses the understanding pathway. What we then do, we open the booklet up to the understanding pathway. Then, based on what Alex has done, if I'm not giving her the marijuana 101 that I'm assigning, or the alcohol, I'm going to say, "Hey, choose three pathway projects that you want to complete." What she'll do, she'll take her time and she will read through it. She'll tell me what she wants to do. If it's something where it's irrelevant to the incident, I will challenge her, "I understand that you want to do that, but what does it have to do with you smoking weed, or throwing a party and having a lot of alcohol in your room?"

Tony Miller Jr.:
To get away from that awkward moment when I say, "You can't pick that," I always tell the student, "Hey, my only request is that you make sure that it's relevant to your incident. If you don't think it is, or you don't know if it is, ask me. If you want to take your chance and convince me that it is..."

Alexandra Hughes:
Hey, y'all. Quick break. The audio, as I'm sure all of you know, since we're all doing Zoom, messed up right here. You really didn't miss anything at all. He jumps right back into what he was saying, and you miss nothing. I figured I could use this as a wonderful time to do some quick announcements, and a commercial break, just in regard to ASCA.

Alexandra Hughes:
As you guys know, in regard to everything that's happening with COVID-19, what we've done is, we've come up with some ASCA chats. I encourage you guys to get on your email to check the dates. Christine sent out a list of chats, and topics that might interest you in regard to, how do we do student conduct online as student conduct administrators?

Alexandra Hughes:
Go ahead. If you haven't signed up for those, please do. If you aren't going to be able to make it, please know that there is a waiting list. Please, make sure you let us know at central office if you can't make it. That way someone can take your space. Go ahead and jump in on those. There's some really great information. If you do miss those, Christine is actually writing up a blog, so you'll be able to catch up on what was missed, or just go ahead and email us and let us know.

Alexandra Hughes:
All right, thanks. We're jumping back into the show.

Tony Miller Jr.:
They go through, and it allows them to think critically about their behavior. They're asking questions, and those students, they take their time. They read through it, and they see what they want to do. One thing you have to learn is, we had to take the word count out. Students want to look at the shortest word count.

Alexandra Hughes:
Okay.

Tony Miller Jr.:
The different things that are in the pathway plans are creative, and things they wouldn't expect. They're more apt to choose them because it sounds cool to them. Trying something that's attractive to the theater major, or the art major to where they may not want to write an essay, but they would be okay creating their own TikTok and standing in front of a video and doing a presentation about why they violated this policy, and what they learned. They're doing a BuzzFeed quiz, or something like that. Just to tailor to their needs.

Tony Miller Jr.:
We do this because I'm not arrogant enough to think I know what's best for Alex after a 30-45 minute conversation. I understand that we all learn differently. Alex knows what's best for Alex, and so I'm going to throw the ball in Alex's court. We're going to work together to make sure that she learns something from this experience, and so she doesn't make the same mistake twice. That's what it would look like as far as Alex did have the big party, ended up smoking weed, things of that nature. Just like how we were trained.

Tony Miller Jr.:
When it comes to sanctioning, she's going to be able to pick and choose what she wants to do. If students are like, "Hey, I don't know. What do you think? What are most popular among students," we jump in and say, "Hey, a letter to yourself is really popular," or, "This TED Talk is really popular. A lot of students like to do this. Given your situation, because you're on deferred suspension you may want to do the potential conduct questionnaire, or potential employer questionnaire to prepare you for those conversations, if you see that on the application, things of that nature." The student sees our office is helping them, and not being punitive in nature. We're actually being a resource [inaudible 00:35:04].

Alexandra Hughes:
That sounds amazing. I am sitting here saying, "I have work to do this week. I need to revamp our entire office's sanctioning, and how we do it." Unfortunately, or fortunately, people in my office this upcoming week will be getting a lot of homework that we'll be doing. That should be fun. What you're saying makes sense. I think the key part is, first of all, students being able to accept responsibility. That becomes important in understanding their ability to pick a sanction, and what that looks like. That's also going to make sure that's something they are actually invested in, and what they want to do. I think that it actually provides a level of us saying, "Okay, look. We appreciate you accepting responsibility."

Alexandra Hughes:
I think the way you said it the best, after a 30-40 minute conversation with me, you're really not going to know what's best for me. If I can sit there and talk through it, and work for it. Then, like you said say, "Hey, look. When I apply to graduate school, when I apply to law school, whatever that looks like, this is what happened, this is why. Here is my reasoning, and rationale." We are helping students. I think part of it is understanding at the student conduct office, we are very much a part of someone's education as a history class, as any other office. Understanding that there're policies, there're rules, and how do we work through that. I really like that.

Alexandra Hughes:
With this, have you found that it's actually more successful than maybe your traditional sanctioning practices?

Tony Miller Jr.:
Me? Yes, because I'm an advocate, it's my baby, I love it. It's worked. I was allowed to take it from SMU and apply it to the University of Montevallo. To go to a brand new place and they be like, "Yeah, do it," that says a lot. I think having the data behind it to back that always shows, going back to our passion for student conduct assessment. If I were to state it more effectively, I'll just go out on a limb and say, I think it's more effective from a standpoint of being able to build relationships with students, and being able to help change that negative connotation, and perception.

Tony Miller Jr.:
The reason I say that is because, it's a hybrid model of the traditional sanctioning practices, and restorative justice practices. Although the person who which they harmed is not sitting there, but we're giving their power to them and they're choosing how they want to restore their harm, how they want to learn from their behavior in that instant. It also gives the student a voice in the process. Also, it adds more accountability to the student as they're completing their pathway projects.

Tony Miller Jr.:
The numbers have shown that, at SMU and at the University of Montevallo. I was a numbers guy at SMU, so we tracked this. We did a presentation at ASCA on it. What we saw, and we went from 2014, to 2015, and we prepared all those years but just for the sake of our conversation I'll share with you the data that we got. On our surveys, when we ask and do different things like we did; pre-hearing surveys and post-hearing surveys. Looking at 2014 and 2015 data, 75% of students, during that school year, they said they felt like they were respected during their student conduct process, during student meetings. Okay, great. After the first year of this, that number shot up to 93%.

Alexandra Hughes:
Wow.

Tony Miller Jr.:
You're going back to 2014-2015, 81% of the students said they felt listened to. Move forward to 2017-2018, that number shot up to 96%. 2014-2015, having the opportunity to share your perspective on the incident and what happened, 89%. That's a great number. With this model, 100% of students said they felt like they had the opportunity to share their perspective.

Alexandra Hughes:
Wow.

Tony Miller Jr.:
A lot of students come to us obviously thinking that we're going to say, "Yeah, yeah. Whatever, you did it and you need to do this, this, and that." Seeing those numbers grow looks really good for us. Then, we asked the question, "Did you feel like your conduct officer was personally invested in you?" 2014-2015, 86% of students said yes. Moving forward, using the Pathway Plan sanctioning model, 96% of students said yes. Then, even something as simple as having the process explained to them. They don't look at the student code of conduct. They don't look at our process until they get the letter from us. In 2014-2015, 86 students said, "Hey. Yup, the process was explained to me." 2017-2018, 96% of students said they felt like the process was explained to them.

Tony Miller Jr.:
The way we track that data, we did it with all of the students that met with our student conduct office. Not the hall director, things of that nature. We were tracking pre and post data, and getting real time information to see what we needed to improve. We had the quantitative data, but we also had qualitative data to where it would tell you, "Mr. Miller was rude," or, "I don't think he did this." You're in a staff meeting, and if that comes up you have your supervisor right there. You talk to them about it. Or, you can get, "Aw, man, he was a lot better than I thought," or, "Mr. Miller sat and listened to me. He talked to me. He didn't yell at me like I thought he would." As you can imagine, that makes the student conduct officer feel really good about themselves. We got good feedback over, I think, 55% of the students. They responded, and that's how we got the realtime data.

Tony Miller Jr.:
Everything in this process, it's intentional. Even the terminology, it's a little different. We don't call them sanctions, we call them pathway projects.

Alexandra Hughes:
Right.

Tony Miller Jr.:
Just how you do those different things, and how you're able to nuance those, the students, they hear that. It's like, "No, we're not sanctioning you. You're going to build a pathway plan. I'm not going to send you an outcome letter. I'm going to send you your pathway plan. These are the pathway projects that you have to create." The thing is, I think one of the biggest things where I think it's effective, and it helps the credibility of our office and the work that we do is that, a lot of students feel like, "I'm going to get the same thing that Alex did."

Tony Miller Jr.:
With this it's like, "No. You're getting to pick and choose whatever it is you want to do." If you violate the same policy that Alex did, you may get the same conduct status, you may get the same time. As it pertains to your pathway projects, she could have three completely different ones than you. Now, if y'all happen to be best friends, and choose the same three, that's on you. It's not going to be me telling you this. We usually have that one-size-fits-all model, and I've learned that, that's not how students work because we're humans, and we learn differently. We experience things differently.

Tony Miller Jr.:
I think, not to say that the way we've always done it is wrong. I think that this is a way, because it's all about institutional fit. It has to work where you're at. Just like our students wasn't ready for restorative justice, student populations may not be ready to be able to choose their own sanctions, and doing things like that. You've got to have the pulse of your campus and your student population. You may not have the backing and the support of the VP, or your supervisor, or the buy-in from the office to be able to do something like this, and of this nature.

Alexandra Hughes:
That's actually where I was going to ask you. For our listeners who are listening to you, and who are like, "This sounds amazing. I want to do something like this. I think it's great. I want to start it..." Say they have the buy-in of the people involved, and the constituents involved. How would they go about starting this? What would be the steps that someone would take if they wanted to start doing this?

Tony Miller Jr.:
I would say, you have the conversations within your student conduct office. You say, "Does anybody want to actually do this?" Then, you have to then... when I say survey, not literally survey your student population, but based on your experiences with the students, and what you know about your students, ask yourself, "Will this really work?" If it does, you tailor the pathway projects to your student.

Tony Miller Jr.:
When I left SMU and went to University of Montevallo, one of the pathway projects that we had in the SMU pathway plan was a fake ID project. Where the student, they research the Texas law about fake IDs, and the consequences of doing stuff like that. They had to do something artistic; whether they create a poster, or a PowerPoint, and present it to us and write a reflective essay on it. Going to University of Montevallo, that is not in our pathway plan, because fake IDs are not a theme at the university. I eliminated that, because that's irrelevant to that. There may be some things that you don't need that SMU has in theirs, or the University of Montevallo has in theirs. That may be relevant to your institution, and your student population.

Tony Miller Jr.:
Honestly, knowing the students that you ultimately serve every day will help. You have to go back, and you have to do your homework. If you've been there for a year or two and you have colleagues who have been there in the office for seven or eight, you've got to talk to them and see what are some things, what are some changes that you've seen? It's a big process. You have to get everybody on board, because it wasn't just our office doing it.

Tony Miller Jr.:
Again, we were the only ones doing the realtime survey data. At the end of the semester we did have the big survey that we always send out to get the feedback from the hall director. You have to train your hall directors to be able to do this. If they don't know how to do it, it's going to leave a bad taste in the students' mouth because they're not going to get the same experience if they don't know what they're doing. Your ability to train is going to be major, so you're going to have to understand what you're doing.

Tony Miller Jr.:
I'm always like, anybody who wants to learn or know anything, call me. Call my colleagues at SMU so I can talk you through it. You want to just consistently assess what you're already doing. As I said earlier, introduce new pathway plan options. See if everything lines up with your student code of conduct; statuses, things of that nature. See where you can collaborate with other departments. We have it where, we may run into a junior who, through conversation, may not know what they want to do. You may want to collaborate with the current development center on your campus. That's a way to help them with exposure, but also you're helping that student with connecting their resources.

Tony Miller Jr.:
We have an academic action plan in our pathway project at Montevallo to where they'll have to reach out to our [inaudible 00:46:35] success center to build an academic action plan, because they want to get their GPA up, and things like that. Collaboration with other departments really helps. Making sure, if you have a strategic plan in your office, if you have a strategic plan at the university, making sure you can speak to how this aligns, and how this helps in being able to understand, and explain the descriptions, and options so there's no confusion, and everything is clear.

Tony Miller Jr.:
Then, honestly, advertising it on campus so students know, so students are aware of it. They jump on board, and you can get buy-in from them as well, because it's going to be brand new to them. If you're branding it as, "We're doing this to help better serve you," then they're going to be a lot easier to jump on board. Those are some of the things that I would say you'd have to do if you were serious about bringing this type of sanctioning model to your campus.

Alexandra Hughes:
That's a lot. I think that you give really good, actionable steps for people to really think about how they can successfully implement something like that. What that looks like. Then, really, at the end of the day, how to support and make sure our students are successful. If I take away anything from what you've said during this conversation, I think that's really it. How do we make sure our students are successful? This is a way, or a pathway, right?

Tony Miller Jr.:
Yeah.

Alexandra Hughes:
... to make sure they can actually be that. I absolutely love that, and just love what you're doing. Love what you've done with this, really, and just the knowledge that you came up with this, and you guys put this together. I think that it's something that we need to really consider in our field. The concept of how are we sanctioning our students? If there's something that we can do that's better, that yields even better results, why not? I think that this is really setting the tone for the expectations of creating sanctioning in our field, and what that looks like for people moving forward.

Alexandra Hughes:
I love that. I love how you shared that with us. You've provided so much content, so much information, so much good stuff. I aways ask people, do you have a tip, or a trick, or a student conduct favorite book, or something that you would want our listeners to know?

Tony Miller Jr.:
Gosh. The book I have on my desk is Student Conduct Practice, and that's the old edition.

Alexandra Hughes:
Yes.

Tony Miller Jr.:
I know the new edition's out there, so I'm going to try to get that real soon.

Alexandra Hughes:
It is.

Tony Miller Jr.:
I'm trying to think. Really, going back to my personal motto as far as a tip is, think about relationship before regulation. Then, education before adjudication, because that really helps the student understand that it humanizes you. You want to make sure that the student knows that you laugh, that you cry, that you're a person. Thinking about the environment that the student walks into, so what's on your walls? The pictures and things like that, is it intimidating? Is it welcoming?

Tony Miller Jr.:
I have a lot of things on my wall. I have a pronouns chart on my wall, so when the student walks in they see that, and they know it's a welcoming space, if they identify differently than what they may appear to the average person. Those different things, and keeping the student focused. Being student focused, and keeping them first and letting them know that you're here for them. We all know we only have a job because of them.

Tony Miller Jr.:
The big thing I like about this sanctioning model is because it shows the student that it's more of a conversation. It's not us wagging our fingers in their face, and telling them they're bad, or they're dumb, or they shouldn't have done this, they shouldn't have done that. We're truly helping, and guiding them because we've been there and done that. We've made some of the same mistakes, and we just want to make sure they don't make some of the same.

Tony Miller Jr.:
We talk to students that have very promising futures, and they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and a poor decision in the moment of what was happening. I always ask that question, "Was there something going on at the time that may have led you to doing this?" That opens up with the student. Those are some of the tips and tricks that I would give to colleagues. Regardless, this sanctioning model, it is what we do on a day-to-day basis.

Alexandra Hughes:
Okay, well I think that's perfect. Tony, where can people get in contact with you? I don't know if you're a user of the social medias, and the Instagrams and all of that, or if you prefer for people to contact you through email, or what that looks like. I'm sure people are going to have questions about this, and I want to make sure they can contact you.

Tony Miller Jr.:
Yeah, so I'm on all of... well, for the most part, the mainstream social media networks. It's @tonymmillerjr. Nothing special. Just @tonymillerjr. That's on Twitter, and Instagram. I'm on Instagram a bit more than I am Twitter, but if you hit me up on the DM I will send you my email address, cell phone number so we can communicate. My email address is tmiller7@montevallo.edu. Obviously, you hit me up email, that's probably going to be the quickest way to do it.

Tony Miller Jr.:
Like I said, I don't mind sharing my cell phone number. You email me and say, "Hey, man. Let's talk. Let's chat about it," I'll probably just shoot you my email, shoot you my cell phone number and say, "Hey, let's talk." It'd be easier for me to explain it anyway. I can also send you different things. I'll send you some of the data, if you want to look through the data. Some of the executive summaries and reports that I've done at SMU, and at the University of Montevallo.

Tony Miller Jr.:
If you're trying to sell your supervisor, or your VP on something, I don't mind. If I need to come in and help y'all do it, I'm down with that too. I'm a believer in this system. I've seen it work at two different type of universities; public and private. Two different type of student demographics. I'm a fan. I'll probably always be a fan. I think this is something that we, as student conduct professionals, as generations continue to come into colleges, we have to adapt, and adjust with them if we want to continue to be relevant, and actually have them listen to what it is we have to say.

Alexandra Hughes:
Okay. You heard it from him, himself. He's ready to come out, he's ready to help you. Everybody, get in contact with Tony. I will definitely put all of your contact information in the description box for our listeners. That way, they can just copy and paste it, and get with you directly.

Alexandra Hughes:
Tony, thank you so much for being on our show. We appreciate you. We appreciate your time, your effort, and your energy that you are giving to everybody, and to our students in this field. We look forward to speaking with you soon, okay?

Tony Miller Jr.:
All right. Thank you for having me. You have a great evening as well.

Alexandra Hughes:
This episode was produced, edited and hosted by Alexandra Hughes. That's me. If you're enjoying the podcast, we ask that you like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps other discover us, and become more visible to our podcasting community. If you have suggestions for future guests, or would like to be featured on the podcast yourself, feel free to reach out to us by email at ascapodcast@gmail.com, or on Twitter @ascapodcast. If you'd like to connect with me on Twitter, you can find me @alexandrasview. Talk to us, we talk back.