Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Welcome to season three of the ASCA Viewpoints Podcast. The podcast where we talk about the student conduct profession in higher education. I'm Alexandra Hughes, your Viewpoints host. Hello, everyone and welcome back to the ASCA viewpoints podcast. As always, I'm your host, Dr. Alexandra Elise Hughes and I hope everyone is doing well. We are making our way through November and a lot is going on, a lot is changing. We've made it through the election. We have a lot that's coming up with the holidays. So, what's happening in today's world? One of the things that's happening is, unfortunately, we are seeing the number of COVID cases rise again in our country. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: There's a lot of talks about a lot of things, including if we're going to be officially shut down again, what that looks like. The perpetual state of wondering what's going on and what 2020 is, exist here as it has in I feel every episode that we've talked about. What I like about this episode is it's actually a throwback. So, I had the opportunity to interview someone back in about April, May at the time. I think it was the beginning of May, about COVID, social justice during COVID, housing, what that looks like. How can we make sure that we are being extremely intentional and get the resources that we need for our students, how is this impacting international students, all of those types of things. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Now, at the time, the episode didn't go out. Things were changing, COVID, life, a lot of stuff was happening but it was one that I knew would bring a lot of advice and information and intentional conversations to our audience, and one that I knew that I would put out. That being said, I think now more than ever is the perfect time. Hopefully this episode can maybe serve as a reminder and take us back to kind of when we had been in this COVID thing for just a little bit of time, when I think there was a part of us that still thought that maybe we'd be opening up our fall semesters at work and with the vaccine, whatever that might have been. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I think it reminds us of maybe the care that we had during that time, that we may need to remind ourselves of now. Unfortunately, we have grown to become accustomed with living in a pandemic. I mean, it's almost been a year, right, since this has happened and so with that, I think just out of survival, we get accustomed to a lot of things. I really think this episode is good because it kind of takes us back a little bit to the things that we were realizing were working, the things that we realized were not working, and really put that into perspective. So the person that I interviewed for this particular episode, you're going to just love, you're going to love her. She has a lot to say. Her name is Abdelis Vega. She was a phenomenal person to interview. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: She's actually been working professionally with college students for five years in various capacities. Most recently being in that of Residence Life. She aims to center equity and inclusion in everything she does and she truly believes in the power of disrupting the status quo. Abdelis earned her master's degree in student affairs at Colorado State but is a Pennsylvania girl at heart and so, she returned home after her program and is currently at Penn State University working. Outside of work, Abdelis spends time on DIY and the latest Netflix drama. As I really listened to this conversation that we had, I recognized that it was a reminder that there are some things that I probably need to go back to doing that I've forgotten a lot about in this process. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Also, full disclosure, this was when I was obsessed with Tiger King. So there are quite a few Tiger King references in this episode and I can't believe that Tiger King was this year. I was truly obsessed with that show. I mean, this has been the longest year ever Anyways, I hope that everyone is doing well. As always, thank you so much for listening and please stay tuned to our episode. We have a very special guest, if you want to introduce yourself for our listeners. Abdelis Vega: Sure. My name is Abdelis, thank you so much for having me today. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Thank you so much for being on the show. We are so excited to have you. We are excited to talk to you about all of the things that we need to talk about because there's a lot of things going on in the world right now to say the least, okay? So for our listeners who may not know who you are, could you please maybe share a little bit about your student affairs journey, how you got here and whatever you're comfortable with on a recorded podcast, of course but yeah, we want to hear how did you get to like this moment? Abdelis Vega: Right. So, let's see, how did I get here? I think I have a story that's pretty similar to a lot of people in student affairs. Super hyper involved students in undergrad. So I think I was everything, except an orientation leader. I just couldn't do mornings, like that wasn't the kind of work that spoke to me. I got really involved in undergrad. I went to East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania. So it's in the Pocono's. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was like, "What do I do after this?" I'm on top of the world right now. I'm a student leader. I'm like, living my best life and my mentors so happened to convince me that I could keep doing exactly that for the rest of my life if I went to Student Affairs, which I think a lot of us learn is a little bit of a swindle. It's a lot like a switch. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Yeah. Abdelis Vega: I had no idea, I was just excited to kind of stay in college forever and so I decided to apply to a few schools and I didn't know what I was doing. I'm first gen, a first gen kid so I was like, "What is grad school? I can't afford to take the juries, which ones won't require me to actually submit those scores?" So I had to finesse the system a bit and I got into Colorado State University so I move past the country, and I loved it. I love living in Colorado. It was an amazing experience. It was difficult at the time, because I'm an East Coast girl. I mean, I grew up in southeastern Pennsylvania, in a city called Reading. People know about it, because it's on the Monopoly board. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I was like ... okay, so I didn't want to say it but now that you said it, I feel better. All right. Abdelis Vega: Yeah. Yeah, so it's like a small urban city, most of the population is Brown, Latinos, African-Americans. So, my entire world was that, like I didn't know that Pennsylvania was a predominantly white state until I went to college. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Okay. Abdelis Vega: I had no idea and then, I moved to Colorado and I was like, "What in the world? I don't know, what is happening here. What is a craft brew?" There's Mexican food everywhere and I had never really experienced that, so that was huge. So yeah, I went to school there for two years and then, the job search was difficult, I think it is for a lot of people. So, I had applied everywhere and at some point, just kind of landed back in Pennsylvania at a small private liberal arts school, doing Residence Life. Then, a year after that, I came to Penn State University, which is where I'm at right now, doing Residence Life. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Okay. Abdelis Vega: Entry level coordinator position. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: You're in Res Life and I mean, as a former Res Life person, and I say I'm reformed because it was like, "Oh, like it's a lot, my goodness, I do ..." I always say, I miss the students, I don't miss like being on call and all of that. The time, like my goodness but it's also a very rewarding job, I will say that in so many different ways. Okay, so that's how you got here. So, obviously, right, it's not student conduct completely but it's student conduct related, right? I think that's one of the great things and why I really wanted to have you on our show because I think so much of the work that we do in student conduct, were liaison to the other offices, right? Dr. Alexandra Hughes: So, that liaison role, especially in like housing is ... I mean, we're best friends. It's back to back. It's what's going on in housing, student conduct. That's probably one of the most important relationships that we had and we see the impact of what happens with our students, whether it's the situation that happened at 3 AM and then now, we're working together the next day to work the student through our Student Code of Conduct process or whatever that may be. So I love it and I think a lot of people can learn from just your wealth of knowledge. So, I'm just so glad that you're here on this show with us. So talk to us about like COVID-19 and how are you doing right now? Let's start there. How are you doing? How are you maintaining your sanity, if you are able to? Abdelis Vega: Yeah. I think the first week, I was like, "This is cute or whatever, we're at home, we're saving the world by staying home. We're going to figure this out. We're going to Martha Stewart this a bit," and then when the reality really start to set in, I think things got pretty difficult. So, I think it was rough for a couple weeks there but I'm really grateful to finally be in a place where I'm like, kind of leveling out, finding the routine and what life is right now. I have this visceral reaction to calling this the new normal. I don't want to call it that but where we're at right now, I finally feel like I'm in a good place because I'm starting to figure out where I fit in with my community, right? Abdelis Vega: So, I've been really reaching out to people, connecting with people and staying connected with people who are helping me feel like I can just be afloat and exist in a way that's as healthy as it can be right now, right? So we're stepping away from the natural thing that feels like, "Let's just have a bottle of wine to really cope," and just saying, "How about we just talk to a few friends." I'm finally, kind of in that place and it feels good? Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Okay, so what if I still have the bottle of wine? Is that okay? I'm at the place where I'm doing both? How about we say that? It's no longer just the wine. It's wine and friends. Abdelis Vega: Absolutely. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: It's probably more wine. Okay, just wine. Abdelis Vega: Right. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: We're standing in both [crosstalk 00:11:31] Abdelis Vega: Yeah, we are doing our best. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Okay, and doing our best is all that we can hope for. I mean, during this time, I think you're right. As we go day by day and like week by week, it's interesting how now ... even for me, I'm like, "Oh, this now feels ..." and not that any of this feels normal but I know the very first week, I had terrible headaches, I couldn't concentrate, like literally the physical result of that and what that looked like, and now it's more like, "Okay, like I have a routine. I have like you said, a space in my community." So, I think it definitely helps. Have you found that you've done any things like, I don't know, walking outside or baking things, or what have you found to be your COVID-19 quarantine getaway strategies? Abdelis Vega: Yeah, so I don't go outside I actually have ... I'm what they consider high risk because I have asthma and so, I do not go outside unless I'm going for a drive maybe. So we kind of stay in the house but the house is small. So we actually do go for drives every so often. Our intake of HGTV has just ... it's astronomical, how much we've been watching- Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I support that. Abdelis Vega: Thank you so much. So, we'll hop in the car, actually and with the doors ... with the windows rolled down, we probably seem really creepy to our neighbors. We'll drive through neighborhoods, really something like, "Oh, that's a craftsman. Oh, that's a Colonial. Oh, I think I want that kind of ..." really, just envisioning our life off campus and buying a home. We're like, "Oh, I think I want that kind of porch." That is like a silly thing that we do. The neighbors look at us like, "Are you ... what are you doing?" So, we just yell hello from the car and just say, "We're just driving about." I know it sounds insane but for us, it's really fun of like, "I don't really like what they did with those windows there, maybe I can do something different." Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I love it. I'm here for it. Sometimes you have to live vicariously through things. At least now, when this whole COVID-19 thing is over, you will already be ready, right? You're already prepared to put together the house of your dreams and you know what the porch, the windows, everything is going to look like, so I'm here for it. Use your time wisely. I feel like you are. Abdelis Vega: I'm prepared to do like flooring, to put a new windows at my house- Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Roofing. It's a thing. Yeah, and that's what matters, right? So now we all have like developed skills and you haven't developed yours. So, this was a good thing. All right. So since we're talking about this world of COVID-19, and all of that, and the things that you're passionate about, like roofing and floors and porches, I know one thing that you're also very passionate about is social justice and equity. I think it's a very interesting conversation around social justice and equity in COVID-19, and what that looks like, because one, none of us have ever been through a global pandemic before. Then two, how does that change what we know, what we're striving for, what that looks like, there's so much there. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: So maybe could you possibly talk about what is equity and justice and what it means to you? Abdelis Vega: Yeah, it's interesting because there's been so much conversation, and I think with a lot of us, we've all kind of turned inward. Well, a lot of us have turned inward in trying to figure out what does this mean for me? How am I coping? How do I deal? I think there's been a lot of folks who've immediately thought to others and so, it's amazing that we have both kinds of humans in the world, trying to do their best for themselves and for others. In student affairs, specifically, I think it's really interesting to see what conversations have come up about social justice, equity inclusion, because we often find ourselves really stuck at those like 001 level concepts of diversity inclusion, right? Abdelis Vega: This is why you shouldn't touch your co-worker's hair or this is why you maybe shouldn't say something mean or rude, or how that's uninclusive and I think that's particularly true for a lot of us who are at maybe predominately white institutions or at institutions that are more rural, whatever that might mean. I think now, this entire pandemic is forcing people to think a little bit harder about what the truth could be for some people at home. So we're thinking ... and I hope more people are thinking, equity minded, right? We're thinking more about what does it mean to be just in a time where, we can't put eyes on our students. One of the philosophies that we run on here in Residence Life at this institution particularly is like you need to put eyes on the situation. Abdelis Vega: You need to have seen that student spoke with that student, been in the same aura as that student in order for us to make sure things are okay but that's not true anymore. So it's not true, because we don't have them here. We have maybe 500 students here, out of the 15,000 that lived on campus. So, we're having to ask questions and engage about things that I don't think that we know we're walking into, if that makes sense. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Yeah. Abdelis Vega: So when we talk about equality, everybody is saying, we all have the same thing, right? I think we stay on the equality plane a lot here because we're like, "Well, we all know that you all live in this residence hall, this is what we provide you so you all should be on level ground," right? There might be some changes here or there but we should all be working from the same playing field. Now we're having to think equity minded and that we're talking to our students, we're still doing conduct meetings from when they were here. We're still engaging with them virtually and we're having to think, okay, what's happening, what could be possibly happening at home? We don't know what's going on so how do we move from everybody has the same thing to ensuring everybody has what they need to be successful. Abdelis Vega: That is the big difference when we talk about equality and equity is not just we all have the same thing, it's everybody has what they need to be successful. So, we've been having to ask those questions and have that conversation of, "Do students even have internet access at home?" Because then you're talking about doing online trivia to get them engaged, right? To get them engaged, to justify why we're still being paid as employees and et cetera. Do they even have internet access? Are they having to become caregivers at home? Are they working in essential jobs right now? What does home even look like? Are they staying with friends? Are they international students who can't get home? Abdelis Vega: So, when I'm thinking about equity and justice, we're thinking about once again, how do we get people what they need to be successful but then also, how are we trying to remove barriers and build systems that go to the root cause of things, right? So not just saying, "Hey, let's all donate food to the food bank." We're asking the question, why are people hungry and what can we do, what systems do we need to build, what barriers do we need to remove to prevent us from even needing food banks the way that we do? Dr. Alexandra Hughes: All right, episode over. That was fantastic. I'm glad everyone ... kidding. So, let's unpack that and so I think the first part in unpacking that, and really looking at what you're saying is, let's start with the whole fact that we're going online, internet, right? I think that the world went online, right? It happened so fast. I think there was something that I talked about before where it says we have planned by 2030 to be functioning in this completely online space. Well, 2030 happened in 2020 and it happened in like two weeks, right? March 1st, we were good. By March 10th we're online, in our homes, what does that look like? Dr. Alexandra Hughes: The first thing that I think we did as universities, as businesses, as people just everywhere in life was say, "Okay, great. We're going to go online. How do we move our in-person brick and mortar platforms to being online, virtual telemarketing spaces and then how do we function and do our day to day functions of say, our office in this virtual world?" I think that's the thing that so many businesses, universities, professors, whatever, we thought about but like you said, what does home look like? I know that there is a big thing where there's so many students that are homeless, that are living in their cars and going to school. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: You would never ever know. Obviously, the last person in the parking lot is the first person in the parking lot. They're going into the gyms. They're showering there. They get their workout in, quote unquote, they shower. They're at the dining hall. They have their day. They're doing everything, and you would never even know that they're homeless. So what about those students, right? Like you said, the international students, internet. Do people have internet? Do people have the devices to be able to get on the internet? So there's so many different things and I think that's looking at privilege, right? That we just ... I think, not intentionally, but we just forgot about. Abdelis Vega: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's something ... it's either we forgot about it or people just don't ... a lot of us don't think about what we don't know, right? So, when we talk about engaging students online or helping them transition to being online, I don't think that a lot of ... I think the default right now, a lot of times when we talked about the default person, you think about lawyer, doctor, judge, you think wealthy white man per chance, right? We think about college student, I think a lot of ... America thinks of solidly middle class student from a two parent household who has support, maybe they have a side job, a work study job to help them, I don't know, get a few drinks on the weekends. Abdelis Vega: Otherwise, they're pretty good, right? They're kids living their best lives trying to get an education, and I think that's probably the most harmful part of COVID-19 right now and how we imagine what our students are going through, is even us, as student affairs professionals who see this and know that that's not true, sometimes our brains automatically default to, "Oh, they're fine. They're just in their childhood room and the worst that's possibly happening is that maybe their sibling is annoying them," right? What needs to happen is we need to start embracing the narratives and also the lived experiences of the professionals who come from those diverse experiences, because they're going to be the best people to help us navigate and get creative in serving our students who are also coming from those spaces. Abdelis Vega: So think about our colleagues who are coming from first gen low income, racially, ethnically, diverse spaces, all of that, disabilities, anything that you can think of. Those colleagues are going to be the colleagues that really need to be shining right now, because we need to be centering folks at the margin so that we can serve our folks at the margin with them in mind. So, when I'm thinking about our students, I was heavily ... I was recruited from my university as an undergrad. It's a state school that is very much so prides itself on having one of the highest percentages of diversity, because they heavily recruit in inner cities in Pennsylvania and Southeast Pennsylvania. So Philadelphia, Reading, Allentown, they're really recruiting these kids. Abdelis Vega: They get those numbers and that's great but a lot of us were just plopped up from these spaces, thrown into the mountains of Pennsylvania and said, "Okay, you're in college, do your best." Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Can students really be successful with that, right? Abdelis Vega: Right, right. That's in-person, right? So that was difficult in person. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: My god. Abdelis Vega: That was difficult with having my resident director notice that I was struggling, that was difficult with having the director of Multicultural Affairs point us out and pick us out of the crowd. So imagine what that means for us at home right now. I think there's a lot of things that we're missing. There's so many things that we're missing and I think there's a fear of asking as well and I think we need to get past that discomfort with awkward, which I think Res Life professionals are really good at. We're good at being awkward. We need to get past that potential awkwardness because we need to figure this out so we can best support people. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Why do you think people are awkward and scared to have that conversation, right? Why do you think that is, that people just don't want to ask? Is it that we are too scared to know the truth? Abdelis Vega: I wonder if it's that ... I think it's also a discomfort in having to face your own privilege maybe. I think that's part of it. I think there is a sense of helplessness that's involved. So, I've had just a couple conduct cases, digitally and yes, I'm calling these kids to talk about their alcohol violation, their guests policy violation but really right now, in this time, I don't care about that very much. So I'm starting all of my meetings with, "Where are you right now? Are you at home with family? Are you safe? Do you have everything that you need? Okay, so you're in New York, I know you guys are shut down? Do you guys have groceries? Is there anything that we can do to help?" Abdelis Vega: So I'm asking these few questions, because whatever we can do to help, we're a large institution, we can figure it out and how to support our students. I'm asking that first and then, we'll talk about, "Okay, you got a little drunk a couple months ago and we found you in the bushes. Let's discuss that. That needs to be discussed," right? Dr. Alexandra Hughes: The sad part is ... nowadays, look, we all need to be a little drunk under the bushes, okay? Abdelis Vega: Soon enough, I'll have my own case. Yeah, at this point, I think those uncomfortable questions need to be asked, because we need to prioritize the safety and security of our students over our own comfort, right? If it makes you squirm, lean into that and figure that out offline because when you get online with these students, you need to be all in. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I think part of it too, the hardest thing ... and I'll just say this as, all these conduct cases, I've had. One, I appreciate what you're saying because that's how I start mine off. I've literally spent, I think more time, even more than the exceptional amount of time that I would spend in my office just talking to students. I've talked about everything from Tiger King. I mean, Carole Baskin, who I truly believe did it with students, I mean, you name it, I'm talking about it. I have to say, it's also hard too because I can't just take the student downstairs to the counseling office. I can't just sit there and hand them tissue when they're crying. I can't just do that. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: That's really, really hard, right? I think people often think that in conduct, we're heartless, we're not but we care. I think there's a level of like having to realize for us, it's like, processes, policies, all these things, right? Yes, it may take a special person to do conduct but like we care. So, for me to be on a screen, and then also part of it is to know that I have to still proceed forward with this process and typically ... and I'm sure if you were to ask my supervisor right now, he would tell you, "Alexandra has tried every way to get out of having to say, suspend a student online right now." I'm just like, "Well, like, is there a way that I can cut ..." I mean, fully aware. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I understand my job and what that is, but I'm like, if there's any way around this in this moment in time, I'm trying to look for it because I've had to sit on Zoom and to do this with the student, and that was just ... it was a lot and it really, really was because it's already a lot in the office, it's already a lot when we're face to face, we're here, I can take you downstairs, I can do it what I need to do but I'm on a screen. So even things that I've done, like connecting with the counseling office so they know that when I have a meeting with the student that we can still ... and yes, we're doing it in this virtual space but again, it's a virtual space, right? Dr. Alexandra Hughes: So talk to me a little bit about ... I know that you do work with international students, right? I think maybe the question is like, what do we, as student affairs professionals need to take into consideration when we're telling students to like, just go home or to work from home, and international students, right? How was that? Abdelis Vega: Yeah, so the area that I oversee specifically here is our graduate student family housing with some undergrads and a lot of my grad students are international students, and my family is here. So, it's interesting to see how many folks have genuinely gone back to their home country, whether their country has mandated it or whether they just felt like it was safe for them because maybe their country has a better health care system or whatever that might be. Yeah, so folks who can afford it and who are able to, they've been going home but most of the students that we have left here, I would say most systems that we have across campus, about half of them are my students who are families, grad students who consider this place their permanent home. Abdelis Vega: Then, the other half is almost majority, international students who just can't get home, right? So one of my student staff members, he is from China. He's supposed to be graduating in May. He really wants to be able to go home. He's had his flight canceled four times. He can't get home. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: My goodness. Abdelis Vega: There's no way for him to get back to China and everybody who was in his apartment, they've all gone home, they're domestic students. So he's been living here on campus, in his building. I think he's the only person in this entire building. Can't get home to China and other night, I had to just ... I had to FaceTime him and help him cook a steak because he's never cooked. He was depending on his meal plan, right? So, depending on his meal plan, depending on being able to order food and kind of do all of that, I think he skipped meals because he was in the lab so much ... honestly, but now he's home, he like, "I know, I'm the only person here but I set off the alarms on the entire building. I realized I don't know how to cook, can you help?" Abdelis Vega: So I mean, obviously, there's a spectrum of the needs of our students. Sometimes, I need to help, to FaceTime somebody to help them cook a steak and sometimes if somebody is not in a safe situation, then we need to be safety planning. So I think there's a spectrum there. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: So let's talk about that. The safety planning part, right? I think that's something that a lot of us have thought about and this idea of, we're home because it's safe, right, but for not everyone is home a safe place. So what does that look like for our students and how do we support our students who we are assuming can get online, can do all these things, can have a safe space but what if they can't because home is just not a safe place. How does that look, how do those conversations go? Have you have to had somewhat, some safety plans? Abdelis Vega: Yeah, so actually, right when all of this started, I think it was maybe a week or two into, stay at home orders and everything. One of the calls that I had to respond to was a domestic violence situation, because I have families here. So, it was actually really ... it was terrifying because it's been an ongoing situation but it was also scary, because as we're working to help this student whose spouse is abusive, both physically and verbally, and what have you, and who also has two small children living in the home, we couldn't get ahold of the local domestic violence shelter, because they're not running at 100%. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: So, are they open right now? Abdelis Vega: No. So, they're open but with a caveat, right? Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Okay. Abdelis Vega: We were struggling to get an emergency protection order. We were struggling to get the resources that they needed and then we realized most of our areas that have all the keys, some of them were working on different hours, so how are we going to get them into an emergency space with two small children? So, there was so much to consider and so, when we were safety planning, I think that was the first time I realized like, "Oh, our response is going to look different because all of the resources aren't the same anymore, and what does that look like?" So we had to have some conversations about that as a staff of, "Okay, so what resources do we know, for a fact are going to be able to answer the phone, who do we need to be working with? Are we are collaborating with our gender equity center to be getting some webinars out maybe, to be working with our Center for sexual and gender diversity office?" Abdelis Vega: Are we working with them? So we've had to get creative but also, I think it's the new learning in the moment and that was a tough way to learn in the moment. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Right, that's hard. I mean, those aren't situations that you want to learn at the moment, right? I think that we have so many years of experience of ... and I think that's part of it. We both know from housing, we both know from conduct, we both know from working in student affairs, we can plan something all day long. It doesn't mean it's going to go like that but the difference is we have a wealth of knowledge to pull from and we can really navigate through that. We don't have a wealth of knowledge of what to do at a pandemic, right? I mean, it doesn't matter if we have these crisis safety. This is something ... and then, who do I call to say, "Hey, mentor, you know, 20 years ago, when you dealt with that pandemic, what did you do?" Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I mean, none of us have experienced that. So there is really nothing to pull from and we are learning in the moment. Although in some cases, that's okay and some cases, it's not and that's scary. Abdelis Vega: Yeah. I was joking with a friend recently. I said, some of us are going to be forced to take out the partner resume that says that we're really good at crises and some of us better put that line in, right? Some, because it's really showing kind of like, where our weaknesses are. Even in that situation, right, the domestic violence situation, they were also international students. So, then we're talking about like, the embassy is closed and so how do we work with the embassy? How do we work with global programs? How do we ... this person is a PhD student and has two small children and still has to do this, while kicking out ... it was insane and so, we had to get creative of like, "Well, fine if we can't get into here, then we'll get into here and we'll get a bed from here. We'll get linens from there." Abdelis Vega: It was just this kind of mindset of, "We will work with what we got and make it happen because we still need to service these students. They're still here." I think the one thing that was kind of ... it was kind of difficult was, how do I manage keeping myself safe and then also, servicing my students? So, I'm in an apartment where this situation is happening. There's multiple police officers. There's an angry potentially violent person. There's children. Nobody is wearing masks, right, and we're all in the same place together and we're all trying to figure things out. So at what point do we ... what do we prioritize in that moment? I think a lot of people are being forced to consider that as well. So I think that's been a little difficult. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I mean, it's hard, right, because if you think about the fact like if we ... let's take it out, even in this situation, if we're looking at what this idea of essential workers are, right? So let's put aside doctors and nurses and healthcare professionals because we know that they are the at the utmost frontlines of this, but also people that are working at Walmart, working at all these places that we have to go to, to get our food, to get our groceries and they are subjecting themselves every day to these situations because it's like, whoa, like whether it's job, whether it's money, what that looks like, right? A perfect example, here you are in this position where we have an essential situation, but at what point and what do I do and what's right and what's wrong? Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I think that's the other thing. I don't think that there's a right or wrong in this. I think there is a, "We can only do the best that we can and we're going to try," and maybe it's more so holding on to certain principles or morals or values, right? Because what I love ... and I think Christine and I talked about this on the show ... on the episode from before, where we said what we're seeing more than anything, typically our field is like inundated with like, what does the policy say, lawsuit, prevention, we're not going to do this, right? There's always a level of that there but I think now it's more so like, what do we do for the good of each other and humanity and what is right in this situation? I think that's what I've been defaulting to just like, period. Abdelis Vega: Yeah. Yeah, I think, in a lot of ways, it's been great because we've had to suspend a lot of our beliefs of like, what should we do per the policy, right? I think a lot of it has brought us to a more humanistic approach of what is right? What is right? How many people are ... to whose benefit, how many people are going to be impacted by this? What can we do and I think it's important that you talk about the essential worker piece. A lot of our students are essential workers, right? So, to call back to what you were saying, you were asking me earlier about what does it mean to tell our students to go home and make it work? Some of our students are able to go home, maybe they live in a McMansion. Maybe they have everything they need. Abdelis Vega: Maybe everything is great and they're on their Zoom class from their pool. I don't know, good for them. That's awesome but a lot of our students who live off campus, for example, they're landlords aren't stopping rent, right? Maybe that's the only home that they have. Maybe they don't have a home or family to go back to. So, a lot of our students are essential workers, whether they're EMS professionals or whether Cold Stone ... Cold Stone is still open downtown, somehow that's been deemed an essential business. A lot of us, I think there's a lot of conversation of, "Well, if it's your safety or your job, then just prioritize your safety." Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Easier said than done. How are you going to eat? How are you going to pay for a place to live? I think that's, again, going back into that place of privilege that we talked about before, yes, it's easy for me to say, as I Zoom you from the comfort of my home right now, right? I know that and thank goodness and I'm thankful and of course, our whole world of Student Affairs every day is just we don't know. As of today, I have a position, right? As of today, I know that I have a paycheck in which I can work from home that I am getting. It's not as simple as just saying, well, prioritize your safety because safety, if we're looking at Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is also, a place to live, food to eat, a roof over your head, all of those things. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Another thing too is our students may be the only person in the house that can work. So, this whole idea of when our business hours are eight to five, we're going to Zoom you online. Abdelis Vega: Yeah. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: They can't and I think what I really ... or where I've really seen this the most is with professors, I think more so than anything. Maybe I'm just like, "Hey, Student Affairs, we know our things," and I think we do but I have found some people in Student Affairs where we've had to really have this conversation of what's feasible but with professors, they're saying, "Well, I'm keeping everything during the normal hours of my class time, why can't they just get on? Why can't they do this? Why can't they do that?" Really having to break down like, "Now wait a second, this student doesn't have access that you think they do?" Abdelis Vega: Like you said, we're all doing the best that we can. We have to think about the spectrum of students that we have. I have students who are parents of multiple children. I have students who are in their recovery of substance abuse. I actually have a ... I have a chunk of students that I have living in apartments here, who live there specifically, because they're all in a recovery journey from substance abuse. We know that isolation can really impact somebody's recovery journey. So, if they're not logging in at 2 PM, sometimes there's a bigger issue at play, we need to be considering what people are going through and I think that it is hard to kind of explain that to some of our colleagues who might be working on the other side of an academic affairs of life is not as normal. Abdelis Vega: Life is not as normal for a lot of people. Some people need to prioritize picking up groceries and getting paid via Instacart because they need a place to stay and maybe your class is not the priority right now, even though, right, it's unimportant, they need to pass it, that's what they're paying for but as you said Maslow's, right? They need to be able to have a place to eat, to sleep, all of those things and I don't think that's being thought of a lot. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Even the fact that ... and I think this was the story that I think you had shared that there's someone who literally just said, "All I did today was made sure that my kids were fed," and that's all that I have the capacity to do and quite frankly, I say, that's great. I think we see these things online that say, "Well, you've always said that you need a time to do this and now you have time, so if you just couldn't do it, it's because that we just have the initiative." I completely disagree with that. I think that that is a space of being able to say ... and this is something that I've repeated. I say, "We're not just working from home because it's fun. We're working from home because it's dangerous to be outside." Dr. Alexandra Hughes: We are in the middle ... like words matter and order matters. We are at home, in the middle of a global pandemic because we have to be here, because it's dangerous like you say immunocompromised et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, while trying to work. I think if people can understand that, it will make such a significant difference. Just getting up. I think we're all looking at these, our institutions are making us short of productivity. I've had days where I'm like, "I survived today." That's literally like, I live, I survived because today was hard, right? Then, the other things that we're not thinking about, I can speak from personal experience, I lost a loved one during this time, not to COVID-19 but it was as a result of COVID-19 that I couldn't go to the funeral. I couldn't be with my family. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I couldn't hug the people that I needed to hug and love. So, what does that look like in grief and in grieving when you can't be there to say goodbye? There's so many pieces and intricacies that ... this isn't just normal. Abdelis Vega: Two things really, because I think there is a ... I think there is a reality about mental health that we need to be talking about. We have to consider the physical realities, right, obviously, of what's what's going on? Are people safe? Do they have shelter? Are they in a home where people can afford the extra mouth. We also need to be talking about the mental health capacity as well. One of the things I've done to really just kind of save myself, I've muted and unfollowed friends, accounts, whatever, anybody who says the word productivity, I've muted you. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I don't need that type of negativity in my life, okay? Abdelis Vega: It's been reported. The amount of people that feel like, if you don't have a new hobby, a new side hustle, if you don't have a new language under your belt, it's because you lack this, a plan. I'm like, "This is not the time, okay? It's not the time or the place." I have removed everybody ... I've also removed the people who just simply aren't following the rules, people who are still hanging out together, who are still getting together and I have people on my circle and to me, I felt like that's really made me feel even more isolated. Socially of like, "Wow, do you not care about me or other people?" Dr. Alexandra Hughes: About your well being, right? Abdelis Vega: What is this about? So, I've removed those people from my virtual space, if you will. When I think about the mental health aspects, so in Residence Life, we are first responders in so many ways. Some of us do have counseling degrees and credentials, but most of us don't but we're doing informal counseling all of the time. So at least once, twice, three, four times a week, I'm responding to kids who don't want to live anymore. Who are having their first panic attack and think it's a heart attack. Who this is their second or third attempt at ending their life. That's during the normal school year, when we're all here, where we can see them, right? Abdelis Vega: So when my student staff says, "Hey, Karen down the hall has been acting odd. She's just ... I haven't seen her eating, whatever it is. Can we just check in on her." We have all of these systems in place to be that intervention for our students. What intervention exists for them now, right? So, when we talk about being ... when professors are being just as hard and tough as they were beforehand, when we're still handing out ... when we're still not providing grace, when they're not responding to emails and when we're not engaging and asking those basic questions to ensure that they're okay, I think we're really missing a mark here. This pandemic in and of itself is bringing up a lot for people. Abdelis Vega: People are having to be at home with themselves, are having to deal some scary things. I can't even imagine the students in New York, what they're going through. It's like an epicenter in our country. People are dying and you still want them to login and care about that essay right now? They just lost multiple family members. So, there's just a lot at play here and we need to also recognize the invisible part, the invisible impacts. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Right, and I think that's like ... It's hard, because I don't know if any of us have the answers, but I think what we can do, what we can say is just care. Just care and maybe that's the answer in what we're saying because I think these conversations are happening in different spaces. I think more people are starting to realize that. I'm totally okay with the fact that when this was going on, it was the best thing that we could do, like hurry up, get online, we can make sure ... and it was truly from a place of, "Great, we have this online virtual world. We're going to get online. We're going to make things happen. We're going to do that." Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I don't think there's any fault in that at all. I think that we've shown that. I think the next step is saying, "Okay, now let's care a little bit more," because, again, people are not going to remember what you say. They're going to remember how you make them feel. If we can just make our students feel like we care a little bit and I hope that we all do, if we're in this field, you know what I mean? Again, if it's taking extra time, extra moments to help them, I mean, let's do it. I know yesterday after work, because I was in Zoom meetings all day, I had a student reach out to me, who I've worked with over the past four years, say, "Alexandra, can you please help me? I have an interview coming up. What does that look like? What does that look like? It's coming, it's in this time? Can I meet with you? Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I said, "Let's do it at 5." He's like, "That's after hours." I said, "Don't worry about it. I want to help you." That's after 5 and I was on the phone with him, helping him go through it. Let's talk about questions. Let's talk about things. Let's practice and we're scheduled. He's like, "Can we practice?" I said, "We're going to practice on the weekend. We're going to practice on Saturday," right? I know that and again, boundaries are important. I'm not telling people to go outside and that I'm not saying do that but what I can say is, for all of us if we can help in little ways. Abdelis Vega: Yeah, and I think our care can look different now and that's okay. I've been saying a lot since the start, is like, the rules are made up, the points don't matter, life is just bizarre right now. Do whatever you can. So, I'm very clear about my boundaries with my students, especially working in Residence Life. You need to have boundaries to be successful, I think. So, when I said, "Hey, FaceTime me. I'll work you through cooking yourself a steak." He said, "Are you sure, because I know you said that like, you know, FaceTime is inappropriate," and this. I was like, "Listen, you need to eat. It's fine. It's not a big deal. Just FaceTime me. We're going to figure this out together." I've had some students texting me and they're just like, "Are you sure this is okay because usually that's a no zone for me." Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Yeah, the world is upside down. I think about it like the airport, right? Back before this, when we used to fly to the airport, the good thing about the airport, is you don't know what time of day or night it is, right, depending on where you fly. So you can drink in the morning, at night, we keep going back to drinking, maybe I need to have a different reference but it's okay. I think we all can resonate with this now. It's like you can go get mimosas at 5 in the afternoon, at 5 in the ... it doesn't matter. I kind of feel like we're all living in our own little version of being in the airport, where rules don't make sense. People are dressed up or they're in pajamas, they're sleeping, they're awake. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Some people are wearing scarves and hats and boots, and other people are wearing flip flops. I think that is the perfect example of our world currently and that's okay. Abdelis Vega: Do what feels right, right? I am not one of those people in the airport who can just like fall asleep, open mouth on the floor of the airport floor. I am one of those people who will have a beer at 10 AM because I don't know where I'm at. I don't know what's going on. We're just doing what we can. Okay? Dr. Alexandra Hughes: We're in the magical space of the airport and I feel like that's our world. We're in the airport right now and that's okay, because we can't be in the airport right now. Literally, we will be in the airport, figuratively. Abdelis Vega: Absolutely and we're all just trying to ... we're just trying to stay afloat, right? For those of us who are lucky to still have our jobs, still have a paycheck and some folks might consider that lucky and some might not, depending on how their institutions are responding. For those of us who still need to engage with folks, our students, I think that we're doing the best we can and when we realized that we could be doing better, don't sit in it. Don't sit in it for too long. Just do better for the next one, right? Just keep trying to do the best you can while recognizing that you're not working at 100% and if you are, how, first of all, drop that tutorial. Abdelis Vega: Yeah, drop the tutorial, right, but our students aren't doing their best either because sometimes they just can't. So just keep going, right? Just keep doing the next best thing that you can do and that's like a reference to Frozen or something like that. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I made them before. (Singing). Okay, I'm not going to sing. I'm not a singer. I'm not doing that. Well, I love it. Well, I think that you've provided ... I mean, it's been a wonderful conversation to have you. You have given people ... my goodness, there's so much I think to think about. Is there anything that I didn't ask you, that you want to share with our listeners? Abdelis Vega: My gosh. No, I think we really ... we hit a ton of things. I think, if anything, give the grace where you can, ask the deeper questions and for goodness' sake, stop asking how are you. No one is well, right? Don't be afraid to lean into the awkward and ask the heavy hitters because honestly, that's what we're going to find out, where we can be intervening the best that we can. So don't be afraid to get a little messy with this. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Okay. Well, we will be Miss Frizzle in the magic school bus and we'll get messy and I'm here for that. Okay, living wonderful, so as I always ask everyone on our show, is there a podcast, a song, a book, I don't know anything that's giving you life right now that you think that our listeners need to know and people need to get into, to help them through quarantine times. Abdelis Vega: Yes, so I have been definitely reverting back to my childhood, coping, which is Harry Potter- Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Okay. Abdelis Vega: So, I've been rereading those books and I encourage anybody to just like, dive back into whatever magical world of your choosing to just escape for a little bit. So that's been really great for me, but when I grew up a little bit, when my brain is- Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Yeah. Abdelis Vega: I've been watching a lot of TV so I recently watched Ramy, I don't know if you've ever heard or watch it. It's on Hulu. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Okay. Abdelis Vega: Basically, it just follows the life of a Muslim American guy who is in North Jersey and ... it's hilarious. It's so funny. It's on Hulu and Insecure just recently came back, so been watching that on HBO. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Tiger King on Netflix. Abdelis Vega: I watched that ages ago, that's- Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I know. That was actually perfect for the beginning of quarantine because I was like what is life and it was just great to watch. So we need to probably do a whole episode on just the Tiger King itself and why it's actually a fantastic television show. Abdelis Vega: Here's a spicy take, honestly. Yes, Carole Baskin definitely did it. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Yes. Abdelis Vega: Why is everybody mad at her? Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I don't know. Abdelis Vega: That's just my- Dr. Alexandra Hughes: The whole show is like Carole Baskin, Carole Baskin. Abdelis Vega: Like murder is not okay and also, why are we so mad at her? Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I love it. Well, it as been a pleasure to have you on the show. I mean, we hope that you will come back to us one day and after quarantine life and COVID-19, you can teach us more amazing, amazing things. So we appreciate you so much. Where can people reach you if they want to reach you? I don't know if you're on the internet, if you're on the interwebs, email, social media. I don't know. I mean, Batman signal. That's a thing. Abdelis Vega: Yeah, that's insane. Actually, I don't have a social media presence actually but I'm working on it because I have nothing but time nowadays. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Okay, so then, we'll basically say it will be coming, so the next time you come on the show, we can be like, "Hey, we'll share that then." Abdelis Vega: Yeah, please. That will be awesome. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Okay, well, then there we go. This episode was produced, edited and hosted by Alexandra Hughes. That's me. If you're enjoying the podcast, we ask that you like, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps others discover us and become more visible to our podcasting community. If you have suggestions for future guests or would like to be featured on the podcast yourself, feel free to reach out to us by email at ascapodcast@gmail.com or on Twitter @ascapodcast. If you'd like to connect with me on Twitter, you can find me @alexandrasview. Talk to us. We talk back.