Alexandra Hughes: Welcome to Season Three of the ASCA Viewpoints Podcast, the podcast where we talk about the student conduct profession in higher education. I'm Alexandra Hughes, your Viewpoints host. Alexandra Hughes: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the ASCA Viewpoints Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Alexandra E. Hughes and Happy New Year. I can't believe it's a new year. It seems like it is December 30th. No, not 30th. I lied. December 58th of like 2020, right? It doesn't seem like we're in 2021, but we are. We're here. So I hope that this podcast finds you well wherever it is that you are, morning, night, afternoon, you name it. I hope that you are just doing well and safe and healthy during these times. Alexandra Hughes: I am so excited to be back. I had to take a break, take some time away. Now I'm back and the show is back. We have so many things planned for 2021. Please make sure that you are following us on social media. It is ASCAPodcast on everything. I now have made actually official Instagram accounts and all that, if you haven't known. I even made an official Instagram account for me for work, and that's going to be dr_ehughes, that's D-R underscore Ehughes, H-U-G-H-E-S for my name. So yeah, follow me. I literally just made it like two days ago, so I don't even have anything up yet, but you should follow me because things are going to be up, so I'm super excited. Alexandra Hughes: I am not going to hold up too much more of your time as far as an introduction. I really want to get into this amazing conversation that I had with my special guest on the show, Stephanie Wright. So for those of you who have probably heard her name before, I definitely shouted out some of her work on Twitter, and I think on the show in the past, and I'm so excited and so honored to be able to have her here on the show to talk about her experience with identities and some of the really hard things that we still have going on. I think that the reality of kind of where we are with just everything that's happening is that these conversations are happening. They can be uncomfortable, but I have found them to be so enriching. I mean, the growth that even I've had in having these conversations and listening to these conversations is just truly incredible, and so that, I hope, is what you take away. Alexandra Hughes: So without further ado, Stephanie Wright is a student-centered educational administrator who is committed to service, leadership, and excellence with over 16 years of experience in student affairs. She is regionally known as a dynamic speaker, presenter, and innovator in the areas of Greek affairs and student development, and her passion lies in reshaping campus cultures by developing and implementing hazing prevention education for student organizations and club sports. She works closely with academic affairs, off-campus housing, res life, fraternity and sorority life, to address organizational misconduct, restore community standards, and set student organizations on a path to success. Alexandra Hughes: Beyond her many years of experience in Greek leadership, she has had extensive experience in student conduct and Title IX, and quite simply put, she is an advocate that cross-collaborates to create engaging learning experiences for students, faculty, and staff around ethics, multiculturalism, and leadership. She is actively involved in a multitude of professional organizations, and she has founded her own annual cultural Greek leadership conference that centers on issues faced by Greek letter organizations and founded her own company which is SMW Services in order to provide consultation and developmental programming to organizations and institutions. So she's done a lot. She's extremely passionate, extremely knowledgeable. This conversation was one that even... Wow, even I just had to sit there and learn some stuff from. So with that, I will go ahead and let you hear our conversation, and I hope that I can talk to you soon on the interwebs. Alexandra Hughes: Stephanie. Stephanie Wright, how are you doing? Welcome. Stephanie Wright: I'm well. How are you Dr. Hughes? Alexandra Hughes: So weird hearing that. Like you know? I'm in shock, even still in shock of that, but I'm doing well. We're here. Stephanie Wright: Very good, yeah. Alexandra Hughes: COVID, pandemic. That's a thing. Stephanie Wright: Yeah. Alexandra Hughes: People have forgotten that, but it's a thing. Stephanie Wright: So many have forgotten that. Yeah. Alexandra Hughes: So many of our students have forgotten that it's a thing. Stephanie Wright: Yes, and I recognize that every Monday morning when I enter and do all my police reports. Alexandra Hughes: Yeah. I wish they would remember, because I would like to go outside. I feel like the kid who is inside doing everything they're supposed to but you can't go outside for recess because people are not doing what they're supposed to. I really want recess. Stephanie Wright: I want recess too. Alexandra Hughes: This is not it. This is not it. So outside of COVID, how are you doing? Stephanie Wright: Outside of COVID, I'm doing all right. I'm thriving personally, I would say, aside from the stressors of school but yeah, aside from that, I'm great. Just work is stressful, but that's connected to COVID. Alexandra Hughes: Yeah. That's true. COVID. Conduct. COVID, conduct, and college. That sounds like a proposal. COVID, conduct, and college. Stephanie Wright: Go ahead and submit that. Alexandra Hughes: Okay, I will. We'll do it together. Stephanie Wright: All right. Alexandra Hughes: COVID, conduct, and college because this is not... If someone takes that idea, I'm coming for you. I just want to throw that out there. Stephanie Wright: It's already coined right here. We've got it. Alexandra Hughes: No one else? Okay, we're good. Okay. Well, how about this. So that people who know you are, can you share a little bit about yourself, only as much as you're comfortable sharing on a recorded podcast, right? But just, how did you get to this role that you're in? What you do? A little bit about your background story? All that good stuff. Stephanie Wright: Yeah. So, I have been in this role, at least at Rutgers, for five years. I just celebrated my five year anniversary the other day. I came into this role after working in fraternity/sorority life for five years prior at another institution. A good friend of mine who recently passed away, Rich Lawrence, when my position was created was like, "Hey, Steph. You would be so great for this. Please apply." I was like, "No." But I did it anyway. I did it anyway, and it worked out. It was a great fit, and it allowed me to really flex some of the skills that were limited at my previous institution, so doing some policy writing and being a little more developmental than I had in the past. Stephanie Wright: But I've been working in higher ed. I know I have a baby face, but I've been in higher ed for 16 years now in different capacities from student leadership and student activities, financially. I've done a little bit of this and a little bit of that in preparation for whatever the next step was going to be. Outside of working at Rutgers, I'm a small business owner, so I have my own LLC, SMW Services, where I do a lot of consulting work, mainly with culturally based fraternity and sororities. That's really my passion, and it's important that they have support, which I know we'll dig into that a little bit more in the article. I work a lot with cultural-based organizations, helping them with hazing prevention, their policy development. I consult with different institutions on what their policies look like. Hazing prevention is kind of my thing, just based on my own life experience, so I do a lot of hazing prevention education as well. Stephanie Wright: And lastly, people don't know this about me, really, because I haven't pushed it a lot, but I started a podcast over the summer. Season two will be coming out in December, aka after my classes end this semester. Season two, and maybe I'm rambling, will be coming back out, so that's going to be exciting. That's pretty much... That's it. It's all about Steph. Alexandra Hughes: Well you do a lot, and you're in a lot of places, so I think that's just incredible. I don't think people understand the complexities of having a full-time job and having a business that you run and of having a podcast and being in school. There are so many things there, so I definitely, definitely appreciate really just what you're doing because it's a lot. And it stretches you in a lot of different ways, but it's also such important work, and then it's your passion. Stephanie Wright: Yes. Alexandra Hughes: So, you love it, but you're tired, and then oh yeah, in a pandemic. Stephanie Wright: Yeah. Yup. Alexandra Hughes: That's the thing too, right? Well, okay. Well, outside of all of that, you also did something else. We have an ASCA, a journal, called Reflections, right? You actually wrote this really powerful article, and it was entitled The Complexity of Being a Black Conduct Officer. We're going to get into that this episode because there's so many things that I think are really just powerful that you wrote, as well as it explained things so very well, and I think people can learn from that. So what just made you write that? We'll just start with that. Stephanie Wright: I was tired. I had spent enough time crying and being frustrated and swinging at the air, and I needed a release. It's funny. My associate vice chancellor had actually forwarded the email to me. I saw it, and I didn't read it. I was like, "I'm not writing anything." And so she forwarded it to me, and I said, "Okay, this is a sign. I should probably write something." As I began, it was such a release, and I was hoping that what I was contributing would spark some thoughts in other people's minds that would say, "You know, we need to look at how we're doing this and do it differently, and also when we think about support, let's not just think about our students, but what are our staff members going to do?" Stephanie Wright: I think so often the needs of staff are dismissed, and we have a sole-focus on our students, but if we're not well, we can't be there for our students. So I decided to just be as transparent as possible, and just throw me out there, even though there were some risks connected to it to make that point, and hoping that it hit home for some people. Alexandra Hughes: Well I definitely think it did. I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I know for me, and obviously because I am a black conduct officer, it definitely... I resonated with a lot of it. You said something where you said, "I was to use my voice and reputation to shed light in the dark corners of the system." I think that that in itself, right... We could probably talk for hours and hours, right, just about the different pieces of the things that you said, but you really talked about finding your purpose in this journey and looking at, really, yourself. Could you talk a little bit about that? Finding your purpose, and how you did that in this role as a student conduct administrator. Stephanie Wright: Yeah. I think finding my purpose, I've always just been on that journey, and I've done that. I've been on that path for a while, and I thought it was initially... One thing I didn't mention earlier is I founded a conference called The Greek Leadership Conference, the GLC. I thought that that was it, right? I'm creating this space for our students, and I'm seeing at least 250 students a year that I'm supporting. When this position came up, even though I wanted to fight it, I was called to it. And every time I say, "You know, I'm going to job search," something pauses. Like, "Okay, I'm not job searching." It always happened where there's something else that comes up that says, "Stephanie, if your hands were working on this, this would look different." Stephanie Wright: In recognizing that I was in different cases, and I only talk about a couple of cases, but I experience this so often. I said, "Okay, I'm supposed to be here because there is a change that I'm supposed to make, at least within Rutgers. I don't know how far it stretches, but that's it." It's been a painful journey to find that purpose, and it's a tiring journey, but it's what's been put on me. People who know me know I'm very spiritual, so I will always bring up God in my calling and things like that which can be annoying to some people, but that's who I am. Stephanie Wright: I think just wanting to be a person... I can remember going back to being a child and wanting to speak out for those who felt like they didn't have a voice. Like, "I'm the voice of the voiceless," if you will. I've been doing that since I was probably about seven, eight years old, so it's just who I am. So to step into this role where I get to go back and forth with people about why this is right, why this is wrong, and develop someone... It's just a part of who I am. Alexandra Hughes: Right. Well I think you bring up a good point. For so many of us working in student conduct, we essentially get away from who we are in the sense of we hide a lot of parts. I think that it comes from a place us ensuring that we are being fair and equitable and able to really just be neutral in a lot of these situations, because that's what we really pride ourselves as conduct officers. I think we do a really good job of that, but I also wonder how much better or how much more or how many more connections we can be making if, instead of shying away from those identities, if we also just kind of lean into that, right? And lean into the things that we're feeling. Alexandra Hughes: You said before, like, "Look, I'm a really spiritual person. So how does that play into the things that I am navigating and the cases that I'm getting and everything else?" I think that's important, and especially now more than ever. This year, 2020, outside of the pandemic, there were so many other things that happened. I think there was something that was said. I think Don Lemon actually said it. He said, "There's two pandemics. There's COVID-19 and there's one on race." Stephanie Wright: Yeah. Alexandra Hughes: And we saw this year a lot of stuff happening racially and being brought up, and so I think there's so many times that, even though, yes, people can physically see that I am Black or you are Black or whatever that may look like, we still really try to kind of hide that identity in a sense and not let that be what comes out. But in your article, you were really talking about the fact that I had to let that come out, so could you talk a little bit more just about that and what that was like? Stephanie Wright: Yeah. I mean, I found very quickly when I would see students of color come into my space for our conduct meeting there the sense of nervousness, and more than the average student. I was like, "Man, I need them to know I'm feeling the same thing you're feeling. I'm going through it too." Just because I may be older or I have this title, at the end of the day, we both walk out into that street. We're just seen as people of color that are targets. We're targets for whatever it is, whether it's a verbal assault, a physical assault. There's always that threat to our lives, and so I have made it my business to, if I'm having those conversations, whatever the conduct conversation is, if we're going to have that, we're going to deal with the behavioral issues, but afterwards we're going to have a Stephanie-and-you conversation. Stephanie Wright: It might sound a little bit like, "Young Black man, let me explain how you need to maneuver." For our parents of color who they want their students to get that education so they can... They may be first gen, and be able to say to his parents, "I can relate. I'm first gen. My mother has an eighth-grade education. My father has an associate's degree. I'm their wildest dream. So I know what you're feeling because I went through that when I journeyed with my parents." And so really trying to provide that comfort in having to show up in my Blackness. I've had to show up in my queerness because how long do we have to fight for our system, like [inaudible 00:18:31] and so that we can put in students' preferred names so that we're respecting them in the way in which they want to be addressed. Stephanie Wright: So in order to do that, and for people to not look at me and be like, "Oh, you just want to complain about something." No, let me explain this to you because it's impacting our students, but it's also impacting me. This is not me wanting to complain or I'm playing favorites because I like this particular student, but I've been where they are where I've been unseen, unheard, and made to feel small. So I now, in my positional power, have the ability to make sure that doesn't happen to the [inaudible 00:19:12]. I will do that, even if that means I'm going to take hits. I know that they'll be all right. It won't be the best situation, but it will be better than what I had, and I think that also just goes back to my purpose too, right? Stephanie Wright: I have to show up and show out daily as who I am, and that's scary because when you are Stephanie, we show up as me. I show up. I'll come into the conference, and I have on a men's suit, and I'm rocking it better than some of the men. Just want to throw that out there, right? So I'm looked at as a threat, and I've had that experience. So my skin is a threat. My intelligence is a threat. My voice is a threat. I have no choice but to just show up and be unapologetic about who I am, because you're going to hate me or dislike me or dismiss me regardless, so what do I have to lose? Alexandra Hughes: Right. You know what it's like to feel that, so you want to make sure that your students are not feeling that, and so that's where that advocacy work comes from in so many ways. How do you manage that when it comes to, say, the opposite where there's cases in which there is an attack on an identity such as someone saying, a student saying the N word. The student saying something that is attacking... essentially, even though it's another student, something that would be a part of your identity. Alexandra Hughes: Talk us through the examining of that from both a student perspective and a staff perspective. Because I'm trying make that distinguished because I think it's so important. There is the student side of making sure that we're having this conversation or whatever else, but what is that like being the staff member in the office where maybe the N word was used, which is such a deplorable... One of the, if not the worst, deplorable hated word, right? And now you have to have an educational conversation. What does that look like? Stephanie Wright: It is probably one of the hardest things for me to do, because I'm reading that report and I'm hurt. It starts with hurt because I have to read that, and then it starts with fear because then I have to make sure that when I'm addressing this behavior, I have to take my feelings out of it. One of my sayings is, "Facts over feelings." So I have to remove my feelings from it and focus on what are the facts so that I can have that conversation. It's like swallowing something so thick and painful, right? It's hard to have that conversation, but we're forced to swallow that and continue to move forward. Stephanie Wright: When I hear from a student that's been violated, our complaint [inaudible 00:22:21] if you will, all I want to do is just cry and hold them and say like, "I know. It's going to be okay." But I can't do that. I just have to sit there and just, "What are the facts? What happened?" as we enter that information, and it's abusive. So I also feel like a victim in that space, but I don't get to file a report. I have to... Then on top of that, after you complete that case, now I have to go justify whatever conversation that I just had. I have to go justify our rationale and the outcome, and I have to repeat those conversations. So now, I'm being harmed on top of the harm that I've already experienced. Stephanie Wright: There's times when you feel numb as a staff member, because you're like, "Well, we should be used to this." But then there's times when I shut down and people are like, "Well, Stephanie, why aren't you talking? Why aren't you bubbly?" "Because I just read three, four reports in one day with the N word being used as if it's okay, and now I have to prepare to meet with this student and tell them why it's not when they should already know." And wondering when do we as an institution... We put so much information out about everything else. Well, when do we start to... When can I get a Don't Say the N Word campaign? Right? When can I get that? Alexandra Hughes: I will be the first person with you to push that. Stephanie Wright: Yeah. Alexandra Hughes: You said something. You said fear, and I really want to expand upon that a little bit. Because I think that there's a level of fear that student conduct officers, that maybe people think that we should have that we don't. Because oh, we deal with the craziest stuff at the institution, period. And it's so funny, because as conduct officers, we often talk or text among ourselves and we're like, "Oh yeah, this happened or this happened and bombs and this and that." And to us it's like a Tuesday, right? Stephanie Wright: Yeah. Alexandra Hughes: Other people on campus are like, "Oh my god!" And we're like, "Oh, yeah." I guess that's fine. I think there's a level of fear or disassociation that we don't have just because, for some reason, we're just in this work. We understand what it is. I don't know if that's good or bad or whatever, but that's just... It's there. Stephanie Wright: Right. Alexandra Hughes: It's kind of like a trend. That's why we like conference so much, and that why we're with people that understand that. Stephanie Wright: Yeah. Yes. Alexandra Hughes: But I want to look at fear from a different lens, and the lens of when you read a report and you say fear. When you read that someone is using the N word or the fear of meeting with both parties, the student that said it and the student that received it, the victim and the respondent, or the complainant and the respondent, whatever our processes call that. That's hard, and I don't think that people understand that there is a level of fear. Fear for safety. Fear for protection. Because if the respondent used the N word, and depending on the context in which it was used, and knowing that I hold the identity of that, there's almost a level of fear that I have about how is this going to turn out or what are you going to say to me? Stephanie Wright: Yes, yes. And are you bringing a support person with you, and now am I going to be in a space where I have the ability to be attacked from two angles. Because if I'm in my office and it's just me and you, I'm okay. But if there's somebody else, what does that look like? Are you going to walk into that space, and are you going to start calling me the N word? Then I have to make a decision in that space, "Okay, how do I handle this?" Do I become Stephanie pre-education or do I maintain this professionalism and swallow that. I think for me at this point, I can't swallow any more. That's part of the reason I wrote the article because I'm tired of wondering, Am I next in a space where I should be safe?" I should be safe on my university's campus. I should be safe within my office. Even though we're virtual, I should be safe in this virtual space, and I don't always feel that way. Stephanie Wright: Who shows up for me? You know what I think about next. Who reported it? They want to feel safe too, and I'm like, "I want you to feel safe too, but there's only so much I can do." The university is not giving me or you the resources to make sure that we feel safe. It doesn't seem like a priority to them. Alexandra Hughes: Right, and I don't think that other people think about that. You could use that in multiple different identities, right? Like you talk about being queer. What does that mean if you're reading a report and someone said something that is disrespectful. It's that same thing, and so I think that a lot of times people are not thinking about that, and they have the privilege to not think about that. Even the point you said about, "Am I safe?" How many times are you wondering that? From your outside, when I'm walking across the street, when I'm going into a store, when I'm going into Walmart. When I'm doing... Name a situation. When I get pulled over. Whatever that may be, but also even, and I don't think that people recognize this from a higher educational standpoint, but as a higher education professional, am I safe in this space? Especially knowing that I have one of the... I don't care what anyone says. I think we have some of the hardest jobs at an institution in the conversations that we have and the things that we talk about, and it's so hard. Alexandra Hughes: You said in your article that you participate in the run, right? The 2.23 mile run after... This was, what, in May of 2020 after the death of Ahmaud Arbery, and how your mother had texted you saying, "Please be safe." Stephanie Wright: Yes. Yeah. Alexandra Hughes: How do you feel when you read that? Stephanie Wright: Man, even you mentioning that, I feel really emotional right now because that's every time I go out, she's worried. My brother lives in New York, and so she's always the moment something happens, she's worried. And she knows the way in which I present to be automatic for people, and so there's always this fear that she's going to get that call about her baby. I'm it. I'm the baby. That something might have happened to me. She also knows my attitude. So yeah, it's hard. Actually I read the article to my mom, and she became emotional, so it was a whole moment that we had. Stephanie Wright: For me, the moment that I open my door, I'm afraid. When I go for my runs... I usually go for a walk or a run or whatever, but I now make sure to keep the exact same trail and wave to all of the neighbors so they don't feel like I'm a threat, and I shouldn't have to do that. My daily waking life, I'm afraid. I get in the car and go to work, I'm afraid. I literally went to my office to pick up my second monitor, and I was afraid of walking out of my office with a monitor. What are they going to say? Am I going to be pulled over? Am I going to be stopped for stealing the monitor that IT literally [inaudible 00:30:20]. Because for some reason, my [inaudible 00:30:25] is a threat, and then it becomes open season on Black folk, and we as Black people, we recognize, "Oh, it's open season on us." Everything that we do, there's a level of fear, and like you said earlier, the [inaudible 00:30:46] did not have to think about that. Alexandra Hughes: It holds up space in your brain, right? Whereas you could be thinking about something else, or you could be... I mean, I got to a point where running outside for me was actually more stressful running outside then it was supposed to be this stress relief. Or even the fact that I willing to pay more to go to a gym to run inside versus running outside. Alexandra Hughes: People often say things like, "Well, you shouldn't keep the same routine. Or you shouldn't keep the same trail, because if someone was going to kidnap you or watch you or doing something, then they would know that every day at 8 AM you go through this neighborhood." But I think even that, the flip side is, it's almost like, so if I have to choose between running through the neighborhood and you knowing that at 8 AM I run, and that's when if you're going to snatch me, you're going to snatch me, that way that happens, I'll choose that over me switching the trail, switching the time, and then people no knowing that I live here. I run here. That way you don't feel threatened. Stephanie Wright: Yeah, yeah. I mean, and you have to think about everything, right? Like, what color are my clothes because I need to be able to justify? I literally have white running sneakers, and I usually have on bright shorts. I won't rob somebody in bright clothes. That's my justification. The fact that I have to think of what my shortie is before I can just go live my life, it's exhausting. And then I have to walk into work and deal with more things that are awful, these types of conversations that no one else wants to have, we're going to have. Alexandra Hughes: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So let's switch this up a little bit. How do you make sure that your personal biases and things aren't coming into play when it comes to the investigations that we do? As you know, I've done trainings for ASCA, different things when it comes to what's a bias and understanding, and a lot of times it's getting people to understand that a student is dealing with the things that you and I are talking about. But I think it's also good for us to talk about the flip side to that. How do you go ahead and put those feelings to the back as you talked about and look at the facts of these particular situations? Stephanie Wright: I think I... It was weird, but I've been able to kind of step outside of those identities in that moment. I don't know how I mentally do it. I haven't been able to figure it out, but the minute where I'm like, "Okay, the student is entering my room." If they're in my office or if they feel that I take them out or [inaudible 00:33:24] room, then I'm not Black. I'm not queer. I'm just here fact gathering, and so I've learned to be really great at just doing that. Prior to the meeting I can have my room. After the meeting, I can go scream. I can do whatever it is I need to do, but when I come back with [inaudible 00:33:49] view, I remind myself, facts over feelings. It's almost become my mantra to get me through doing the work that I do so that I can ensure that I am being fair and equitable across the board for all of my students. I just want to look at the behavior, and when I speak to our grad students, it's the same things that I say to them. All you are looking at what's in black and white. What's the [inaudible 00:34:13] to make your decision? Remove your feelings. They don't matter. It hurts to say that, but if we're going to do this right, fair, and just, we have to do that. Alexandra Hughes: Right. Stephanie Wright: And it's not always easy. Alexandra Hughes: No, it isn't. I think that it's important for us to say that and put that out there, all of us, right? Because we're all human beings, and so we feel things and we have our emotions and whatever that may look like, but definitely the training to do this is incredible. Alexandra Hughes: So let's talk a little bit about organizations, because you are doing this in your business all of the time, and you've really been able to create a successful business looking at cultural organizations. You talked about hazing and these different things, so are you able to really combined the work that you do right in conduct with these organizations, and really ensuring that you are really achieving student success? Stephanie Wright: Yes. When I worked with the national organization when I was doing the [inaudible 00:35:10] overall, I think the best that is that I get to look at both sides as being [inaudible 00:35:25], and having had my own experience with that. What I went through, what I could pull through, I can relate. But being on the other side of it, the risk management piece, I can say, "Okay, I can see the problems there." So I think I become that perfect balance for them of like, "I get it." And I also understand some of the [inaudible 00:35:47] to make sure it is aligned, yes. Being Your Neighbors was the group that I've worked with, and I think they really appreciate that. Stephanie Wright: What they also appreciate is that sometimes we speak in language to these organizations that they don't understand. So if we start anything about [inaudible 00:36:08] organizations who is their balance [inaudible 00:36:11]. This is not... There's not executive director getting paid some salary, right? You are speaking to them at this level, and they're like, "I have no clue. What's [inaudible 00:36:21]? You're the professional here. Okay if you say I have to do it, I'm going to do it." Stephanie Wright: There's no real push-back, and so because I understand the language, I get to come in and translate for them and help them to negotiate. I know that's sometimes diagonal on how you [inaudible 00:36:40], right? But at the same time, those are still my people. I have to turn off my, "I am a conduct administrator" hat, and I am an advocate for our customer's organizations and have that conversation. So really I think I've just been really great at being able to mesh those two roles and be their translator. Then for some professionals, they're like, "I don't understand why we need to do this, because I am of that realm." I can say, "Well, this is where it's [inaudible 00:37:09]." Alexandra Hughes: I like to look at it like a language. I love what you said. Actually, I think it's great. How many times are we, and let's put into term that people can understand. How many times are we taking our student codes of conduct that are in a form of legal-ese, as you can call it, and breaking it down to get students to understand, okay. Because they're saying, "Well, what do you mean? I didn't do that." And I'm like, "Well, you did. Let me show you how you did it, what it was, et cetera, et cetera," and they're like, "Oh, okay. That makes sense." And so I think what you're doing is actually perfect and in alignment with what we need, because it's two different languages. Alexandra Hughes: And also, depending upon what Greek organization you were a part of, what council you are a part of, there's different terminologies that are used to essentially say the same thing, right? Like new member. All those different names change, right? Stephanie Wright: Yeah. Alexandra Hughes: So even being able to understand that language is significant when you're dealing with just like conflict issues. And then vice versa. Student rights and responsibilities, because that's what we call our office, and I know that everyone has a different name, same thing. But we're telling people they have the responsibility to know my code of student conduct, but you have rights as well. So that's where that advocacy work is so important, and I think what you're doing is incredible because you are able to mesh that. You are able to bridge that and be a translator and get then students to understand the process and what's going on, as well as professionals to understand, this is what the student needs, and this is why it's important. Alexandra Hughes: I think it also goes to show you the importance of understanding culture and having a sense of cultural humility to recognize that there's going to be so many different things even in Greek life that maybe you were Greek but you never experienced a particular organization's cultural standards in what they do. That's important. Stephanie Wright: Yeah. To be transparent, I think a lot of our language, especially when it comes to student organizations, has been dictated by other groups, and for some reason we as professionals, we just go along with it. "Okay, they said it." And then there comes in the other room, and so now you're trying to make some type of space where the other groups that were never considered from the beginning. That's the other thing where I need to insert myself and say, "Well, let me tell you how you're wrong." Stephanie Wright: University [inaudible 00:39:51], because all of this is [inaudible 00:39:56] for our panoramic group, perfect for an IFC group that you forgot about and [inaudible 00:40:01] now you forgot about all of those groups, and you expect them to assimilate and go along with [inaudible 00:40:12]. So when universities talk about their commitment to diversity and then equity and inclusion, are your policies on ethical inclusion? And if they're not, then let's go back to the table and write them and start including the people that you continue to recruit but don't really make space for. Alexandra Hughes: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's so true. I go back what you said. Are our policies equitable? Because the language in which a lot of policies were written at institutions, it's so from long ago, right? And so our times have changed, so what does that mean? Then even things like zero tolerance policies. Everyone knows I do not like zero tolerance policies. I've never liked them. I purposefully advocate against them, and our institution has one. And I'm like, "No, no, no no. I don't like this." But I think that in itself is important, and you said in your article, "Are you part of the problem or part of the solution?" Stephanie Wright: Yeah. Alexandra Hughes: I think people need to think about that. So you ask yourself a question in that article. You say, "Am I complicit?" Are you complicit? I want to ask you on the show. Stephanie Wright: Whew, I think there have been times that I have been because I was concerned about repercussions. Alexandra Hughes: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Stephanie Wright: I went through three years under particular leadership that often made me question my decision making, and I wrote an article that I had a soft spot for Black men. So when you hit me with things like that, now I'm questioning myself and questioning my professionalism. So now I'm going to do it different. I'm going to go harder, but I think there have been times where I've definitely been complicit, and I upheld things that I don't actually believe in because I didn't want to be viewed as a [inaudible 00:42:18]. Alexandra Hughes: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's a rough one, and I think that's so important. As a Black conduct officer, how many times are we harder on those students of color, on those Black students, because we want to make sure that we are not being seen as partial or biased in a particular way because we know that there's a different lens. Or how many times are we upholding sanctions and things that we know? If we're being honest, me too. I can be transparent. There have been times in the past where I'm looking at things, and I've upheld decisions that I'm not okay with, right? Stephanie Wright: Yes, yes. Alexandra Hughes: I think there's... That's really hard. Really, really hard, especially when you recognize that it's the institutional system itself that's making some type of decision or sanction or whatever that is, and it doesn't have the same impact. That's really hard. It is. As a Black conduct officer, it's another layer or another level. Stephanie Wright: I'm just reminded that higher educational wasn't initially designed to receive us, so we are going to continue to have to fight, burn down these barriers and have to fight because we're here now, so we shouldn't have to adapt to you. Your system should adapt to our presence, and we haven't gotten there as a profession entirely. Alexandra Hughes: Mm-mm (negative). You said something. You said, "Stop apologizing verbally while maintaining the same behaviors." Where do you see that? Do you see that in the sense of institutions that are putting on trainings, are willing to bring in someone for trainings, but then not changing what they're doing?" Stephanie Wright: Uh-huh (affirmative). I think it's a combination of things. So if we take it individually, we have folks in leadership, or even like your counterpart who will be like, "Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry this happened to you or it happened to whomever," but then they just continue with the same antics, and they're not actually trying to help make change. We have had instances with [inaudible 00:44:29] and our clients [inaudible 00:44:30], and everything they've been doing is affirmative. Stephanie Wright: So, "Oh, we're going to create these affirming spaces, or we're going to create this conference, et cetera, et cetera." And then it's like, "Check, we did that. We're inclusive." Or, "We're bringing in a speaker. We're going to devote two hours to all of the [inaudible 00:44:52] education, and look at us. We're done. We are unified." When no, that is not it. That is not it. Or, "We've done some [inaudible 00:44:59] training, so we're set." Stop performing. Either we're going to be invested in this work, or we're not. If you need to make a decision and if you don't want to make the change or you are indecisive, then you need to move on. This is not [inaudible 00:45:17]. Alexandra Hughes: Well, We have to be there and show up for our students, and that's all of our students. So we all, I think, as higher education professionals, have to recognize that and be willing to advocate for all of our students. That means that we need to understand the identities of our students, understand the historical implications of those identities for our students, and make sure that we are ensuring their success by being able to really just acknowledge all of those things. It's hard. It is. It's so hard, and I get that, but it's harder I think to have those identities and to not feel seen, to not feel heard, and to feel that you're in a process that's not... that there's no winning whatever it is. I don't think that's something that people recognize. Alexandra Hughes: Sometimes even with our processes, it's like... I've met with those students who genuinely walk in and they feel like, "Whatever you're going to do, because I know that I can't win. You're not going to believe what I said." I'll never forget I had a student who told me, "Just thank you for listening." And this was actually just a month ago. There was a situation that happened and he just said, "Dr. Hughes, I just appreciate you just listening to me. I just knew that no one was going to even listen to me." And he admitted exactly, "This is what I did. This is what I didn't do." And he said, "Nope. I did this. I did XYZ. I did not do A, B, or C, but I did X, Y, and Z. I'm going to be honest, and I'm going to tell you." And I said, "Okay. We can talk about that." Alexandra Hughes: But I think just knowing that there are students that are so scared that they're just not even going to be heard or listened to, that's troubling. Stephanie Wright: Yeah, because that's what they're accustomed to outside higher education, and we just... Higher education just mimics what's happening outside in the world, and so what makes the conduct office any different than then law enforcement organization, or going to court where you may... No one's going to believe. You're not going to be heard, so what's the point? And so it's so important that we say, "Here we listen to our students," and we let them know when they enter that space, immediately like, "I'm here for this. I want you to feel that you will be heard. I'm not making decisions without hearing your voice, how you view things." Stephanie Wright: There have been conversations I have all the time where sometimes I ask students. They're like, "Well, Miss Wright, I need to go to court, and so my friend said not to say anything." "Okay, when's your court date, but I refuse to finish this without your voice in this space." Now if you decide you just don't want to be involved, that's different, but knowing you want to be heard, [inaudible 00:48:14], I want to hear you." I think we have to be intentional about making sure our students know that we want to hear their voice and that we're listening, actively listening, not just performing. Alexandra Hughes: Right. Stephanie Wright: But taking them and really engaging them in conversation about their behavior in the future, and I don't know if we're doing it. Alexandra Hughes: Right, right. Well we need to. Well, I really encourage people to read your article. I really want them to sit down, because it is really impactful, and I think a lot of people can learn from it. I would encourage supervisors to read it because I think there are a lot of things that you put in there that maybe some people they're supervising are too afraid to say. It's just... Everyone needs to, so if you haven't read it, please do. Alexandra Hughes: Stephanie, is there anything that we have not talked about or anything that we didn't say that you want to make sure that people know? Stephanie Wright: I think I'd want to [inaudible 00:49:21] discovering themselves in how I closed out the article about speaking our truth and not being afraid to speak our minds. I know that sometimes being that outspoken person can put you in situations where you don't get the interview. You don't get the job. You don't get the promotion. As people of color, that can be a fear of ours because we had... We're ambitious, both to fight with some politicians that nay say. As much as we are advocating for our students to be heard, we need to advocate for ourselves to be heard too, and not be afraid to stand up for ourselves. For the other folks in the field listen, learn, and unlearn. If we can continue on that path, I think we can put higher education in a different space. Right now we're failing, so we need to do better. Alexandra Hughes: I love it. I love it. Well, is there anything that you would share with the listeners? Just what you're doing in COVID to keep it together, whether that's a book, a podcast, a song, a recipe. Is there anything that you're just doing that you would encourage people to look into. Stephanie Wright: I've really got more into my organization. That has really been helpful. I have an amazing workout routine that I do a couple times a week, so the next time we're- Alexandra Hughes: Okay, we need to share this. Stephanie Wright: We're back and forth, and you know what? It was just really simple. I turned my office into... My second room was supposed to be a guest room. It's now an office/gym/studio. Yeah, really simple like [inaudible 00:51:06] bands and some free weights. Doing some ab work. Man, at the next conference, I'm going to be a totally different Stephanie. Alexandra Hughes: I'm here for it. Stephanie Wright: That's it. I had an [inaudible 00:51:18] risotto for the first time, so that was fun. But, yeah, I'm a real stress [inaudible 00:51:23]. Alexandra Hughes: I see, you just do many things, just all the talents, okay? Stephanie Wright: I'm a creative person, and I think that [inaudible 00:51:30] really allows me to just be here and try everything. I think right now while we're still down, all those things that used to sit on the back burner and say, "I'll get to it," there's not time like the present to get to it. So I'm doing it all. I did the podcast thing, December 15th, season two. Maybe I'm [inaudible 00:51:52] driving my website. Everything that I put on the back burner, I've been just making some [inaudible 00:52:01]. Alexandra Hughes: Well, what we'll do for people is I'll put into the show notes your website, your podcast, everything, so people can get more of you because I know they're going to want more of you, and that way it's just an easy link. Click, click here. Click, click there. That way it's just easier. Your social media, everything, so that way they can just connect with you. They can have that, so everyone please just look at the show notes. Alexandra Hughes: And with that, Stephanie, thank you so much for being on our show. We appreciate you, and we hope to see you soon. Stephanie Wright: Absolutely. Thank you for having me back with you. Alexandra Hughes: This episode was produced, edited, and hosted by Alexandra Hughes. That's me! If you're enjoying the podcast, we ask that you like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps others discover us and become more visible to our podcasting community. If you have suggestions for future guests or would like to be featured on the podcast yourself, feel free to reach out to us by email at ascapodcast@gmail.com or on Twitter @ascapodcast. Alexandra Hughes: If you'd like to connect with me on Twitter, you can find me @alexandrasview. Talk to us. We talk back.