Alexandra Hughes: Welcome to season three of the ASCA Viewpoints Podcast. The podcast where we talk about the student conduct profession in higher education. I'm Alexandra Hughes, your Viewpoints host. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another episode of the ASCA Viewpoints Podcast. As always, I am your host, Dr. Alexandra E Hughes, and I hope that this podcast finds you well, wherever you are in the world. So today I want to talk about witnesses. Really I want to talk about the weight that we are giving to witness statements from people that we truly believe would not be lying to us. I know this is scandalous, so I better back up and explain. I understand is that all of us generally accept the fact that when students come to our office and they say, "Oh well, I went to provide 27 different character witness statements for my hearing that talk about how I could never would never do X, Y, Z situation." Alexandra Hughes: I think all of us really recognize, okay. We know, well, 27. Okay. Of course we let those go and say, "No. You can't do that." I think as a general statement, all of us also recognize that when we're trying to get witnesses from parties and was someone there, or what happened in drinking and again, the weight that we put into it, it's questionable, right? I think overall as a field, we recognize that. And so we just give that the weight that they deserve. Now in Title IX cases, I know that this can really truthfully make a difference, right? And who said what and she said what and so a lot of times you really do have to get into the nitty gritty of those cases and what happened, especially when they're really like high priority cases or really just high level type of cases that we're looking at. Alexandra Hughes: But I'm not talking about those. What I'm talking about is our ability to trust and to innately trust witnesses that we believe would not be giving us wrong information. So I mean, trained staff, trained faculty, trained student staff, police officers, housing people, registrars. I mean, you name it. But anybody that we genuinely believe would not be lying to us because of their invested interest in the process and the institution where we even know them, right? Now let me pause here. I'm not saying that this person is lying. So let me again say that I'm not asking you to question if this person is lying or not telling you the truth. Instead I want to look at it from the lens of reliability of eye witness statements. Because if we know that eye witness statements cannot always have everything and not intentionally, but just because of memory, how many times are the cases that we're deciding off of someone that we believe could never tell us wrong information, negatively impacting students, because that person maybe didn't get the whole story. Alexandra Hughes: I know. I want you to think about that. I can truthfully admit that as someone who was a former residence life person who trained all of the RAs, and even when I go talk to RAs nowadays and I go over to housing and say, "Hey, look your RAs." I still say the same thing. And I still say it from this avenue of you are the resident assistant. You are going to have to be giving me top quality material. I'm going to believe what it is that you're saying. Would you write this incident report? I still say all that. Don't get me wrong because I want them to really understand the weight of the job that they're doing. But I do always look at it with like a grain of salt. And I think it's because of a situation that I went through years ago and I want to explain that if I can. Alexandra Hughes: So when I was in college, I was in my junior year of college before my senior year, I was a part of housing and residence life. And so housing and residence life at that particular time at the institution where I was had a senior resident assistant position, because they did not have grads. Of course we didn't realize we were doing free labor, right? Like we were doing the work of grad assistants who are doing free labor work of area coordinators, right? But at the time, you had to apply your junior year after being in housing to be an SRA, a senior resident assistant. And so that's what I did. I did it, I got the position. I was super, super excited. And with that, I know we just had to close out the end of my junior year as far as housing. Alexandra Hughes: And that summer I'd start getting trained as an SRA and whatever. I don't know whatever it was. So my junior year, April of my junior year, one weekend, I distinctly remember this and it was a weekend and my best friend and I who ironically enough, we are still best friends to this day. Shout out to my best friend who's like a lawyer in South Carolina. I love you Haley. Anyways, we were in college at the time and we decided to go to the mall during the day. And we found some cute clothes. I remember finding this cute little dress or whatever. And we bought the outfits. And of course, since we bought the outfits, we wanted to go out in the outfits. And both of us had boyfriends at the time. Now, neither one of those are the men that we're with today, but that's neither here nor there. Alexandra Hughes: So her and I are still best friends. I don't know what they're doing, but it's not the story. Okay. The story is we wanted to go out. And so we asked our boyfriends, they said, yes, we wanted to go. And so we ended up going out on a double date that evening. I went to double date off campus, hung out, talk. I talked and drove around whatever it was after going to dinner, went downtown. Just had a really good time. Came back. I don't know what else I did that weekend. Hopefully studied probably. Probably should have did that as a college student, right? And that was really the end of it. So Monday morning, I get a phone call from one of the supervisors at the time who asked me to come to her office. Alexandra Hughes: Of course I came to her office. Didn't think anything of it because you're constantly in and out in housing and residence life. And she proceeds to question me. And basically she asked what I did recounts my night asks what I was doing that night? Where was I? What happened? What was I wearing? Like the whole night. She then proceeds to tell me that one of her senior resident assistants at that time, because if you remember, I was still a junior and so those seniors had to graduate and we'd be coming in that next year. One of our senior resident assistants saw me at the fraternity house party, that particular night of the double date that I had with Haley. And so I asked her, I'm like, what are you talking about? I never was never there the whole night. Alexandra Hughes: And she said, well, my senior resident assistant saw you wearing jeans and a t-shirt and she saw you in the kitchen at this particular fraternity house. And so when the RAs got there to shut the whole thing down, you were there, you didn't say anything, the whole thing. I was distraught. I was like, what do you mean? I wasn't there. I mean, I was just completely taken aback. I was just shook. And so she proceeded to tell me, look like you're going to lose your opportunity as a senior resident assistant. We're so disappointed in you, you were there, you're representing us every terrible thing that you can imagine. I need as far as my whole entire, at that point, I thought my future, right? Like how it was just like, I can't believe that you would do this. Alexandra Hughes: So of course I leave there. I'm crying. I'm calling my best friend. I'm calling my mom. I'm calling my boyfriend, everyone like, oh my goodness, what is going on there? This is what I'm being told. I wasn't there. How could this girl say that she saw me there when she didn't see me there. We were downtown. I mean the whole thing, right? Now, luckily I had a particular person on staff that really who is to this day one of my mentors and someone that I love very much who really advocated for me. I was like, no. I'm going to believe what you're saying, whatever kind of that type of thing. Alexandra Hughes: I remember asking the senior resident assistant and going to talk to her and saying, why would you say you saw me there when you did not see me there because I wasn't there? Are you against like do you have it out for me? Did I do something to you? Why would you do this? And why would you say this? The senior resident assistant, she was adamant like, well, I just reported what I saw. I don't know what you're talking about. It's not up to me. And I think thinking back now, I'm sure probably staff told her that if I did come talk to her, just you basically say it's out of her control. And so I respect that I'm not mad at that. You know what I mean? I'm being on this side of it. Alexandra Hughes: I get it. But at that time, I was furious. I was furious, I was like, "How could you say this? How could you do this to me? Why would you lie on me and say that I was there when you and I both know that I was not there?" Like why would you do this to me? Now here's more information to this story. I went to a predominantly private white institution in south Georgia. Number one. Number two, I was one of very few black girls that went to the institution and who were in residence life at the time. Okay. Alexandra Hughes: I say that to share a few things. And I think about this as someone who has done a lot of work with research on bias, on race and everything else. And I promise I'll make sense. I share that because I think it played into the who, the what, the where, the when, the why and how I ended up getting kind of put into this situation and what happened and why I was there, right? Now fortunately after this whole thing came out, like I said, my mentor stood up for me. I did not lose my position. I didn't need none of that, but really, it was tough. It was really tough for me initially, because I was basically being accused of doing something that I didn't do. And then it was thought that I was lying about something that I was not lying about, right? Now the information came out later on. Alexandra Hughes: And then everyone, people apologize and kind of the whole thing, basically to say, look we're sorry that we didn't realize and everything was good, right? Everything was good. Everything's copacetic. I don't harbor any bad feelings or anything like that as far as what the supervisor who thought that I was not telling the truth and all of these things. So this is not that at all, right? The reason why I'm sharing this story and why I think it's so important is because if it wasn't for my mentor, whom believed in me and just stood by me, I wouldn't have been able to keep that opportunity because that other supervisor believed her senior resident assistant. Now, let me give you some more information. Alexandra Hughes: What the housing staff didn't know was that on campus, there was another black girl who resembled me to the point of where we called each other twin on campus. And her and I are not related, but we had the same height, the same build, the same skin tone, the same kind of hairstyle, we even dressed the same. It was to the point to where there were other even black students on campus who would say, "Oh, I saw you." And I'd be like, "No, you didn't see me. You saw Kira. You didn't see me," and vice versa. So that's how her and I ended up becoming friends and familiar with each other and whatever it may be because of the fact that so many times people were like, "Oh, she's your twin." I was a greater level, I think, above her. Alexandra Hughes: And so when I was a junior, she was a sophomore and I know she's off doing great things. Today she's a doctor, like a medical doctor and doing a bunch of stuff. So nevertheless, I went into her on campus. And when I ran into her on campus, not like that next week or so, for some reason I happened to ask her, "Kira, what were you... " Number one, let me back up. I said, "Kira, did you go to that particular fraternity cabin party on campus?" She says, "Oh yeah. I was there." I said, "Oh, you were there? Were you there when the party got shut down and the RAs came and everyone else and all that stuff?" Alexandra Hughes: And she was like, "Oh yeah. I was there. I was there when they got there and I said, "Oh, okay." I said, "Well, can you talk to me about that? Or where were you or what happened and all that stuff?" She's like, "Oh yeah. They came in and we were all hiding, trying to like, hopefully they wouldn't catch all of us because it was way too many people and not enough RAs." And I said, "Okay. Fair enough." I said, "Well, do you remember what you were wearing?" She said, "Oh yeah. I was wearing a dark colored t-shirt, a black t-shirt and some jeans." Alexandra Hughes: And I said, "Huh. Black color t-shirt jeans and sneakers." Well, it was alleged that I was wearing a dark colored shirt, jeans and sneakers. And I said, "Well Kira, where were you?" "Oh, I was off in the kitchen. I was in the kitchen trying to make sure that I didn't have to say anything." I said, "Okay." I hugged her and continued on my way. I share that to say, I genuinely think that the senior resident assistant sock here. I do not think that... Well, I know for a fact she saw me. I don't know if she saw Kira. I don't know she saw another young lady that looked like me. But I do genuinely with everything in my soul think that she saw her. And the reason why I talk about that is like this. Alexandra Hughes: We learned that eye witness testimony is questionable. It's questionable in a lot of different ways. And we have to rethink the reliability of it when it comes to our justice system, when it comes to memory, when it comes to the things that we believe that we're seeing. What I think that happened at a school where it was a predominantly white institution, and this is particular senior resident assistant, she was a young white lady. I truly believe that she saw Kira and she thought she saw me. Now at this party, it was a Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity party, which is a historically black Greek letter organization. And so as a result there were, and I can guarantee probably a large amount of black people at that particular party. A lot of times the different black Greek letter members from campuses around ours would come when there were parties. Alexandra Hughes: And I know this because I have been to the parties, right? I just wasn't at that one, right? So I was never at that one, but I have been to other parties in the past. I'm not even going to lie, but I was not at that one. That's the most important part. And so a lot of them come, a lot of them are there on campus. It's like a place for people to congregate truthfully. Another reason I avoided those was because I was an RA when I became an RA and especially a senior RA, I had to avoid those places, those parties, all that stuff, because I didn't want to be a part of it. I didn't want to have to be there. I did not want a situation like this to happen, right? So I think that she saw Kira at this with a bunch of black people at this house. Alexandra Hughes: And I think that she thought that she saw me. Now, here's the reason I say this. I don't mention race and color to say that I believe she had nefarious or negative intentions. I don't. I genuinely believe that she thought that she saw me. And as a result, I genuinely believe that she felt she was being truthful when she told her supervisor. I have to believe that. Is there the possibility that she could have had bad intentions? Sure. But I don't truly believe that in this day and time. I genuinely believe that she thought that she saw me. The problem was because I witnessed memory and testimony is unreliable, what she thought she saw, she didn't. And because she didn't see that it put me in a situation where I almost lost my, and I don't want to say career, but truthfully, I started in housing and residence life and continued on my journey when it comes to student affairs. Alexandra Hughes: I believe that when even I confronted that supervisor and I said, I was not there, that supervisor at the time could not fathom that her senior resident assistant, whom she trusted explicitly could be lying. And I wasn't saying that she was. Actually, I was saying that she was lying at the time. She's lying. I wasn't there. But now I look back and I realized that it didn't have to be and or, but rather it could have been and and, and I know this sounds crazy, but just stick with me here. I genuinely believe that it could have been an and. That that senior resident assistant saw me there, thought she saw me there and I'm telling the truth that I was not there. She was telling the truth and I was telling the truth. Because I do genuinely believe that she thought she was telling the truth. Alexandra Hughes: But unfortunately, that was not the mindset process even the thoughts that came into that particular supervisor's head at the time. Of course I was a junior in college, so I did not have the experience or even the language to say what it is that I'm saying today. But I think it's so important. And I share that story with everyone, because it's important that we look at the people that are bringing us information and not from a lens of, oh, you're lying to me, but truly sitting there questioning and making sure that is it possible that they could have gotten something wrong, right? Think about an RA. I think about you have a resident assistant call it what you want, but she's there. There only might be a few other RAs there. There's a lot of people there at this particular house party on campus. Alexandra Hughes: I mean, your adrenaline is rushing. You're trying to see everyone that's there. You're trying to make sure the police can come, they have to shut it down. You have to wait. It's people, it's alcohol. You got to get rid of it. There's report writing. I mean, we've all been there, right? When we have to shut down parties, we've been there. Those of us who've worked in housing, we've been there and we know what that's like. There's so much going on. I just want us to think about this. And I ask that you think about my story and maybe you have a story similar to mine or whatever it is. But I just ask that you think about that moving forward or in the future when it comes to witnesses and the malleability of memory and the possible tragic consequences that can result from that, when you're doing your investigations. I'm not saying that you don't use it, you don't consider it. Alexandra Hughes: It's important. What I am asking you to do is please take a second, a third, a fourth, look at it. Please play as devil's advocate, even if it's not to that person, but to yourself in your head. And I'm not asking you to question the decisions that you're making. But in a sense, I am. I'm asking you to question and I'm asking you to just do a double check, a triple check. Every situation is going to be different point blank period and we all know that. But think about that in the future. And I just ask that you do think about that when it comes to witnesses, when it comes to the decisions that you're making due to what's someone's adamant that they're saying. If it was not for my mentor, I probably would not have be in this position today because I wouldn't have kept in alignment with student affairs and I would have been getting blamed and it would have been off of a decision or a someone saying that they saw something that they did not see. Alexandra Hughes: So if that means that we have to take a second look, if that means that we have to ask harder questions, if that means that we even have to ask harder questions of those that we truly believe would not tell us things that are wrong, we need to do it. I think just based off of information and the fact that we are constantly having an influx of information and things that are coming into our systems, what we're doing, everything that's happening. And a lot of times we don't know that we're going to need a witness to something until after the fact when we're sitting in front of someone and we're saying, oh yeah, let me recount the situation. I know in certain situations that, yes, I'm going to have to remember this, but if we don't know that we're going to have to remember it, then we're not trying to be very careful about what we remember and that can come across. Alexandra Hughes: So just I use that as the tip of the week. I use that as just, I want you all to think a little bit more about witnesses, what that means, what that means for your departments, what that means when you train people, what that means when you are going through your investigations, how much weight you're giving to that person, whether it's for or against, just take that second look, please, because you never know when it's going to make a difference in a particular situation. And so definitely make sure that we're looking at witnesses and recognizing everything that comes with it. So with that, that is this week's episode. I hope everyone enjoyed it. It was really story time with me. So hope you enjoyed hearing a random story about my life. I have like tons of stories of crazy situations that I've been through. Alexandra Hughes: Thank you for getting through the episode and listening to me as I recount that story. And I mean, you could argue I was a witness to that story. So you know how much of it. Literally the whole point of this episode, but I do appreciate you sticking along this bar. If you didn't know, now you do know I am on social media. I've made official professional accounts. So please, please, please if you want to be connected for all things, education, motivation, leadership, please follow me. I am on Instagram as well as Twitter at doctor, dr_ehughes. That's spelled H-U-G-H-E-S. Again, that's going to be dr_e like the letter E, elephant. Alexandra Hughes: Hughes, H-U-G-H-E-S on both Instagram, as well as Twitter. And then if you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, you can do that as well. I finally made a LinkedIn Alexandra E Hughes, as well as we have our ASCA Podcast to stuff. Again, that's A-S-C-A Podcast on both Twitter and Instagram. So we are on the social medias. I have finally caught up with the world. You probably don't even believe me because I said the social medias, but we're there. Let's connect. I hope that this episode leaves you thinking you are safe in these times. And I look forward to connecting with you on the interwebs. Bye-bye Alexandra Hughes: This episode was produced, edited and hosted by Alexandra Hughes. That's me. If you're enjoying the podcast, we ask that you like rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps others discover us and become more visible to our podcasting community. If you have suggestions for future guests or would like to be featured on the podcast yourself, feel free to reach out to us by email at ASCApodcast@gmail.com or on Twitter @ascapodcast. If you'd like to connect with me on Twitter, you can find me at Alexandria's view. Talk to us, we've talked back.