Alexandra Hughes:
Welcome to season three of the ASCA Viewpoints Podcast. The podcast where we talk about the student conduct profession and higher education. I'm Alexandra Hughes, your Viewpoints host.

Alexandra Hughes:
Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another episode of the ASCA Viewpoints podcast. As always, I am your host, Alexandra Hughes. Actually, now it's official, I'm Dr. Alexandra Hughes. Yeah, lots happened since the last time that I've been on here. And so, I guess we have some catching up to do. It has been a month since I've put out an episode. And so, the first thing that I really want to do is just thank everyone for your support and your understanding.

Alexandra Hughes:
The month of September was, oh, it was such a wild, crazy month. I was defending my dissertation, so finishing up all the writing, defending that dissertation. And for those of you that know, that was just I mean, it was just... I can't even describe like it was like climbing Mount Everest and even those last few weeks, last few moments, literally minutes prior to that, it was just so extremely just overwhelming and a lot of work to do.

Alexandra Hughes:
So that being said, I did not put out an episode as far as podcasting, as far as all of that stuff, and so, I am so just incredibly excited to be back. I'm ready. There's so much stuff happening in our world and I just really thank everyone for their support. Actually, even outside of that, I just thank everyone for the overwhelming amount of support that I received after I defended, like I have never had so many texts, calls, notifications, emails, Twitter posts, Instagram, like you name it, I mean, it was really a moment. It was something that I will never ever, ever forget for the rest of my life, obviously. And I just thank you, I just, I truly, truly, truly thank you.

Alexandra Hughes:
So that being said, a lot of stuff has happened, well, since the last time I put out an episode. I mean, school is starting or about to start, it was in late August or mid-August when I put out the last episode. We are now at the beginning of October, so many things have happened. And there's not enough time in the world to talk about it, right? But what I am excited about is that now I do have time to talk about it. I don't think people really understand the amount of work that goes into even podcasting for this particular one.

Alexandra Hughes:
So, not only do I record the episodes or record intros, I'm scheduling time to meet with people to do these interviews or to talk or I'm getting content or I'm creating stuff. But not only am I recording it, I'm also editing everything myself. And so, the editing, all that stuff, I mean, it takes a lot of time, a lot of work. And so, doing all that plus a full-time job, actually, as the Assistant Director of Student Rights and Responsibilities, plus being a professor, plus also or an adjunct lecturer, whatever you want to call it, plus, also this whole school thing and trying to finish a doctorate, that was a lot. So, I definitely had to make sure that I could really accomplish what I needed to accomplish.

Alexandra Hughes:
And now, since I have time, I am excited. I'm excited to bring a lot of content, a lot of material, and really just make this a consistent thing. So, I just again, appreciate everyone's love everyone's support. I want to go ahead and put a call out if there's certain topics and things that you would like to hear on the show, please let me know. Since I am a one-woman show running a lot of this stuff, my ideas, especially when it was in the middle of all the things that I had going on, creativity can be definitely hard, but it's really about what you all want to hear and the things that are coming to you. And so, that's really what I want to do. Again, I appreciate all the love, all of the support.

Alexandra Hughes:
Be on the lookout for some new things that are coming. If you don't know, we actually started an Instagram page for the podcast, so that was a new thing that we went ahead and did. I know before we had a Twitter, but now we have an Instagram page that we're going to start being really active on and the Instagram for our podcast is just ASCA Podcast. Again, that's ASCA Podcast. You'll find it. It's on there. I mean, it's me. It says ASCA Viewpoints Podcast hosted by Alexandra Talks. That's my Instagram name, so if you are on Instagram and not on Twitter, that is another way that you can connect that we will be on there as well, just so you know, but yes.

Alexandra Hughes:
So with that, that is my opening. That is my introduction, that is my kind of what's been happening, what's been going on. I know a lot of people knew, but I know a lot of people didn't know, so I wanted to make sure that I could just share that with you. Also, this is a check in. How are you doing, right? Like, we're in October and so much has happened across this country and there's going to be some stuff that we're going to get into in the podcast, but so much has happened. And so, I definitely want to be able to hold space for that.

Alexandra Hughes:
But I also just want to do a check in with you all as well, to see how you were doing to see how things are going on. If you need to reach out, if you need to email me, if you have a crazy conduct question and you're like, "Look, I just need another person to look at it because I'm an office of one and I need someone's advice," or "not even advice, just another outlook, I'm always there to help." I do have people that send me stuff, please feel free to email me, connect with me, whatever that looks like. So with that, I am going to jump into the episode because I definitely spent like the last six minutes just talking about what's going on.

Alexandra Hughes:
So, this episode, I'm super, super excited about. We actually recorded it last month. It was before the defense. Yes, so it was before my defense. And we recorded this episode at the end of August. And the reason when we recorded it then was because we figured we will record it and I will be able to get it out before the defense. The problem was I had to do some editing on this and you'll kind of hear it. The technology, yeah, technology was not on our side. I'll just be honest when it came to the internet and different stuff. Welcome to 2020. So it took a little bit more editing and stuff, but I really appreciated this episode.

Alexandra Hughes:
So, this episode was with Dr. Kyle Williams. Some of you may know or recognize that name or know who he is. If you don't, he's extremely active of course in ASCA, serving as the Chair of the Equity and Inclusion Committee, but outside of that, Dr. Williams is the Current Assistant Director of Student Conduct and Community Standards at Washington University, so WashU in St. Louis. He is originally a native of Cincinnati, Ohio and he received his undergraduate degree in Voice from Otterbein University. So, he was at Otterbein. His masters from Old Dominion University as well as he received his Doctorate in Education at Texas A&M University-Commerce where his focus was on Mattering and Persistence of Black males.

Alexandra Hughes:
So, Dr. Williams, as his colleagues at WashU have named him, has worked at Stonybrook University, Virginia Wesleyan University, Old Dominion University, Tidewater Community College, The College of New Jersey and Texas A&M University-Commerce. His background in experiences includes areas such as Residents Life, Development and Alumni Affairs, Inclusion and Diversity, Student Organizations, Fraternity and Sorority Life and Student Conduct.

Alexandra Hughes:
He is very active in a number of organizations across just the country including everything from ACPA, the SACSA, his fraternity. He's Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity, Incorporated. And he is actually also a faculty member at Southern Illinois University-Edwardsville in their College Student Personnel Association program and then a faculty affiliate there at WashU in the Brown School of Social Work as well. So, Dr. Williams does a lot of work and he is a great resource just to have and to know.

Alexandra Hughes:
Earlier in the season, we actually had Jessica White on the show talking about a presentation that she did surrounding Title XI and Black Bodies at our annual conference in February. And so, she did it, if you remember me saying with a Dr. Kyle Williams, and this is that Dr. Kyle Williams. So, we had fun, we were laughing, we were talking. We just needed I think, to just kind of regroup, right? Like so much stuff can happen when it came to the beginning of school, COVID, all these different things, and we were talking, we were laughing, we were having a good time, just sharing some different stuff that we had seen.

Alexandra Hughes:
So with that, I hope you enjoy our conversation. It's no specific topic in general, like I've had with other episodes, but it is just two colleagues talking. We had a good time, and I am excited. I hope you guys enjoy this episode and we will put all of Kyle's contact information in the description box, and I hope to connect with all of you soon. All right. Please stay safe.

Kyle Williams:
Hey, hey, hey.

Alexandra Hughes:
How's it going?

Kyle Williams:
How's it going, y'all?

Alexandra Hughes:
You know, we're here in the inter-webs, in the inner world in the middle of COVID. And we're still here, but we are happy to have you on our show, because yeah, you're pretty amazing, so I guess for our listeners who may or may not know who you are, can you please share only what you're comfortable sharing on a recorded podcast, I always like to say that, a little bit about you, who you are, what you do for our organization and like a fun fact, like "I love Beyoncé." And you can have a fun fact, too.

Kyle Williams:
Sure. I mean, you kind of took mine, but my name is Dr. Kyle Williams. My pronouns are he and they. I currently serve as the Assistant Director of Student Conduct and Community Centers at Washington University in St. Louis. I got my start into Student Affairs, when I worked at Otterbein College. And from there, I learned a lot about equity and inclusion and diversity, and that really framed a lot about who I am as a professional and who I am as a human being. And from that, I went for it and got my master's at Old Dominion University in Norfolk, Virginia, where I got involved with housing and so, I did housing for quite a while. And part of housing, if you've ever done housing, you understand there's a lot of conduct that's involved with the process.

Kyle Williams:
And so, when I moved from my first professional position at The College of New Jersey, shout out to Ewing, and if you ever used OCM, On Campus Marketing, they're big there. To Texas A&M University Commerce, I really worked in my midlevel position to learn more about how conduct plays a part in housing and managing the conduct process. It is because of one of my mentors that's there, now, Dr. Robert Dotson, who got me involved with learning more about the conduct process that I came to meet my other mentor, who is Tamara Greenfield King who actually hired me to be at WashU. And so through all of that, I have learned and kept a very close look on how Equity and Inclusion plays a part in the work that we do. And so I took that work from looking at from a housing standpoint to how it plays a part in the work that we do within student conduct. And so really looking at student conduct and how we're looking at equity and inclusion and diversity, and how we make sure that our processes are actually equitable and fair for everyone.

Kyle Williams:
Through that work, I got involved with ASCA. I was actually a recipient of the diversity scholarship in 2018. We were in Jacksonville, Florida. And then from there, got involved with the then Diversity Committee, and was nominated to be the Chair at our convention in 2018, and then took over that process in 2018. And have since worked with the committee in the 2019, 2020 to look at how we continue to build equity and inclusion, so within the field of student conduct. And so, that's the work that I do. We are currently working at the equity and inclusion board as we've renamed it this past year, has really looked at how are we talking about equity and inclusion and setting the standards for what it means to be to be inclusive and equitable within Student Conduct on our campuses across the nation.

Kyle Williams:
So, that has been a huge trajectory for me, not to mention the fact that I'm also on faculty at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville, go Cougars, where I teach the Legal and Ethics of Higher Education, and have really looked at providing another concept of what Law and Ethics looks like for individuals who are interested in Student Affairs and from that, have created a lot of other professionals who have really looked at the conduct as a profession that they could go into. And so, that has been the work that I've done, that's my professional journey. And really looking at how we can continue to look at this even through the COVID perspective of how we do this work and thinking about our most marginalized students, and ensuring that we're all being equitable and fair for everyone within our institutions, and particularly those who come through the student conduct process.

Alexandra Hughes:
So, with that, I mean, that's just amazing, right? So I want to share a little bit with our listeners, who may or may not know, some people know, but nevertheless, I am always talking to you all the time, not only just because I'm on the Equity and Inclusion kind of like committee with you. But really, I started my involvement with ASCA, also really getting involved through a scholarship, the Diversity Inclusion Scholarship at that time, which is how I originally got connected with you.

Alexandra Hughes:
And you've been my number one supporter when it comes to just podcasting, when it comes to, I mean, everything dealing with ASCA. So this is also a very special episode, just because I know I would not be in this podcast role if it was not for you just supporting me and pushing me and being like, "Well, go ahead and go for it and see." So I mean, that's just something that I want to make sure people know. And I also like to give people their flowers while people are here.

Alexandra Hughes:
And so, that's why it's just something that's just very special to me, because it's clear through the work that you do, you're impacting so many different people, but you also impacted me so much. And I mean, from the very beginning, I used to reach out to Dr. Williams and be like, "So, I have a question. I have a question about this. I have a question about that. What do you think about this? What do you think about that?" And then so like, here we are to this day and I mean, from someone that started in one role just to become someone that is just such a close friend and someone that I admire and just really appreciate, so I just want to make sure I let people know, really just the work that you do and just how amazing you are.

Alexandra Hughes:
So, speaking of equity, and inclusion, and COVID, we're still in a pandemic. It's a thing. I don't know if you know that or not, like if?

Kyle Williams:
It is.

Alexandra Hughes:
We're here. We are here and we're in this pandemic, and school has started. So whereas, I know like in March, when we went home, I was like, "Oh, this is great. I'm going to sit home. I'm going to work from my bed for a month and clock in, kind of have a vacation for a month." Yeah. No. One, it was not a vacation. I probably worked harder in these last months since COVID pandemic than I did before. And then, we're still in it and I'm still in my house. And yeah, school started.

Alexandra Hughes:
So with that, I think a lot of people are saying, "Okay, so what do we do?" We've all kind of have come up with these ideas and these plans for institutions, but not all of the plans are working as we see like in the news, right? So, what are some things that you've seen that have just stood out to you just in this week?

Kyle Williams:
Yeah, I would say, so I'm very lucky in the fact that my institution has not... so, I talked about how I'm a faculty with Edwardsville, but I'm also on staff at WashU. I'm very lucky in the fact that WashU has not started yet, like that's the administrative piece of the work that I do. And so, we're still navigating this, but I think about when as a Gehring faculty member, I've been in gearing, I didn't mention that before, but as faculty fellow, now I'm a faculty member, so we switched gearing to be completely virtual. I think a lot of the conversations that we were talking about in the late part of July was about what do we do?

Kyle Williams:
And I talking to the midlevel aspiring director track was very clear, this is a big case study. We don't know what's going to happen. We are dealing with a lot of different combating issues when it comes to talking about finances, when it comes to looking at how we support our students, how we support our staff. It's a big case study, and I look at the fact that this is going to be someone's dissertation, not mine, as I'm completed. But this can be someone's dissertation about how we navigated this in about five years, because there's going to be a lot of work that comes out of this.

Kyle Williams:
And I think about what it means to be an 18-, 19-year-old self and I look back to what I was doing at 18, 19 years old and when I was leaving my parents household, and I think about institutions just like University of North Georgia and Duke, all these institutions that are starting to roll back their ways of dealing with students. And it's very interesting, like I can't imagine what it's like to have had your senior year interrupted, and for you, not being with your friends, but then to be in the house all summer and the first time you're actually let out and free is when you get to college. And even when you get to college, there's all these expectations of things you have to do, and people you can't see. You can't hug somebody. You can't be with your partner. You can't be in the dining hall. You can't look at what it means to join the organization the traditional route.

Kyle Williams:
So, when I was thinking about how to deal with COVID, I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised that we're in this place. I'm not surprised that we are still in the pandemic. I'm not surprised that we're dealing with institutions that still don't know how to really manage things. I'm not surprised that, and particularly Offices of Student Conduct have not been brought to the table to figure out how we deal with this. And that we're being looked at as the people who are just suspending students again, because if you're not going to deal with the issues that we're here to manage student behaviors, that we don't look at the community part that we build. And so, our offices are kind of being characterized as the fact that we just suspend students, and we do so much more.

Kyle Williams:
And so, when we think about the policies that we're writing and the procedures in which we need to follow, I'm not surprised with some of that and I think that's because some of it is my own experience in looking at how things have fallen out. Like I said, it's one big case study. I think what's most important, I had two goddaughters who are at different institutions right now and when I saw the pictures of them and thought they had a roommate, I literally was about to go off, but I think that, we have to mitigate as much risk as we can. And if we think about, for me as a man who looks at all the children, I call them children, because they are my children because I don't have any. These are my kids, how am I able to protect them? But I also think about what would it mean if we didn't open our campuses in general because like the safety is the most important thing.

Kyle Williams:
And I think about those students, who don't have homes. Like we have to open, because there are students who are already struggling, but I mean, when it comes down to it, I'm really not surprised. And looking at how all this has played out, we thought it was going to be two months, and here we are, almost six months later and we're still in some kind of separation from other people. But because of the humanistic experience that our students have, we have to figure out how we can provide them with that social outlet.

Alexandra Hughes:
Yeah. Well it's hard.

Kyle Williams:
And it's very hard, particularly because you think about like what we have advertised for the student collegiate experience and they're not getting that, but they want that. And so, how do we provide these experiences for students with being as safe as we can, is very difficult to deal with. And so, I empathize with this generation, I empathize like this is going to be a whole new generation that comes after this. I look at, I think about, I said these are my children, but I also was thinking about like my goddaughters who are dealing with this right now. And telling them even as much as I want them to go out and make friends, don't do it, because this truly is a life and death situation.

Alexandra Hughes:
And it's something different. I think you really touched on that, that collegiate experience is something, I don't want to say that's like the kind of the advertisement for college, but it is. Let's take it back. It's the first time you're away from home, it's the first time you get some freedom, right? And you get to go off to college, you get to experience kind of learning who you are and making friends and trying this and all these social activities and going to sleep and not sleeping for days and all the things that we have known college to be and that's not it right now. And really, what you said, it's a life or death situation.

Alexandra Hughes:
And even just the other day, I was having a conversation with someone, because I was explaining what we do as Student Conduct like people, right? Because he's like, "Well, don't you just like suspend people?" I said, "No, we don't. Look, we don't that."

Kyle Williams:
There's so much more.

Alexandra Hughes:
And so, I literally broke down, I said, "You only have seen like this aspect. But let me talk to you about these other things." And I talked to him about students sitting across from me who may be suicidal students that who may have been going through whatever situations at home, getting them... a student coming to me, who's in a domestic violence situation at her house, saying, "I don't know what to do, because my boyfriend hit me." And so, I'm working with housing, with financial aid, with this person, this person and this person and that person to get her safe and exit plan resources, whatever that may look like. The father of a girl who's been assaulted, who come, who flies in and comes to sit in my office and is crying.

Alexandra Hughes:
And the stories go on and on and on, and what I explained was Student Conduct, you guys have no idea what we do in our jobs from the day-to-day because it's not the pretty stuff, it's not the sexy stuff. It's not the "Oh, my God, programming, whatever." That is a huge portion of college, don't get me wrong. Programs are extremely important. I come from a housing background. We know how important they are. But this other side that's not pretty and not cute, plays such a big role in that student experience. And so, one of the things that I was saying in this conversation is as much as I have loved, and I'm over being at home if you really want to know the truth, like it was fun for like a few days. And so, "Oh, I get to wake up. I get to put on leggings. I get to not do..." like I hate it now.

Alexandra Hughes:
Because one, I work at a university because I love students, but two, when I was telling him, I said, "How many students who really need help and walk through those front doors of our Office of Student Conduct professionals, literally every day saying, so this happened, I don't know what to do" that we're not able to reach because they're not in a safe place. I said like, "The whole discipline thing is like 10% of my job and that's it." Like that's really it and more so, there's educational conversations to be like, "So, let's not do this again." But it's the people that we're helping, that we are essentially like the liaison to all these other offices, because of COVID, that we're not able to reach. That's my concern.

Kyle Williams:
And I would also say, I think as we look at people don't understand. And so, I was talking with my law class last night, people don't understand how much conduct influences the work of when we're talking about policies and procedures, we're talking about what it means to suspend a student, all of it. Like we influenced so much across the campus, that to not be at some of the tables that we're asked, not to be invited or to be there and not know what we're specifically talking about, we have to be on par because there's so much that's happening. And given this pandemic, we are on point more.

Kyle Williams:
If you look at the jobs, I was telling my classes this last night. If you look at the jobs that have been created, the fact that Tulane created a specific job to deal with only COVID lets you know that we are valued because even a part of that job, it talked about you have to understand policies, procedures, and how to interact with other people. And so, to understand what it means to have this basic foundation, it's very, very important. I mean, this is truly a new world for conduct professionals, and the way in which we are looked at as influencing the persistence of people who are on our college campus.

Alexandra Hughes:
And that retention piece, and now, and we're more than just the masked police, right? That's what I've been telling people. I'm like, "But wait, if you get us in on the beginning side, instead of now on the inside when we're like, 'Okay, but we're here,' then maybe we could have stopped some of these things." So, some of this stuff, I want to ask you some of the stuff that you've been seeing. I know our institution has come up with, and I don't mind. I'll just share this with everyone.

Alexandra Hughes:
A few different things. One, we have like a letter that kind of can go out. It's like a basic, not a warning letter, but just kind of like a letter like, "Hey, it might be alleged that something, you may not have followed something. Be mindful," right? But we actually broke down and we have three different levels of what... yeah, I know, right? Of what we designed for COVID, like sanctioning, right? So, three different levels of one, level two, and level three, based off of what the student does. And what I was explaining to someone is it's really more about the student's response to being told about something than anything else.

Alexandra Hughes:
Because for example, all of us have forgotten "Oh, my God, the mask. Oh, my God. Oh, my God," like we've never had to do that before. But it's more so, does the student respond and say, "Oh, my God, sorry, let me put it on" or are they like "Expletive, expletive, forget you, expletive, expletive?" That's going to determine level one, or level three kind of like in our process. And then even looking at sanctioning our institution, luckily is we use EverFi. We have a contract with EverFi, so we're able to actually pull in a bunch of those resources for sanctioning. And actually, this is not a plug for EverFi, but if they want to come in and sponsor, I'll be like, "Hey, we'll take it." But other than that-

Kyle Williams:
All for it.

Alexandra Hughes:
Like advertisements, right? But they actually have a lot of really, really good modules because I was going through those not too long ago, just looking to see what are sanctions and modules and educational things that can be done in a virtual world? And I saw a lot of stuff with looking at equity and inclusion, but then they also have that COVID-19 kind of creating a health and safety conscious environment. And so, I don't know. That's kind of where we're starting, at least at our institution, and then looking at where that falls into line with our current code of student conduct and going from there.

Alexandra Hughes:
So, that's us. I know everyone's doing something different. I can talk about it, because I kind of came up with it. But you know, "Hey, I'm proud of it." Someone might be listening like, "No, that's stupid." But you know what? Hey, so that's what we're doing? What kind of things have you seen that you've liked, not liked, all that good stuff?

Kyle Williams:
So, I think I like the fact that our institutions are really looking at how are we shifting responsibility and liability back to the student. So, what does it mean to report? So, I've seen a lot of centralized reporting structures. I've seen a lot of, "Is the student being intentional about not doing this? Are they deliberate about it or not?" And I think we have to be in this space of, the word that we use is, grace. How do you give grace for somebody? I keep masks in my car, so for me to get it, it's easier for me to get it out and go.

Kyle Williams:
I'm also not working on campus this semester, so I don't have to worry about wearing a mask. But for students who were like used to being at home and now, they're on campus again and they get out and they leave. It's hard sometimes to remember, "I've got to have this mask, too, right? I forgot my key, my mask, my purse, like all this stuff, right?" So, it can be kind of you can forget that piece, like what's the extra piece that you're forgetting? But the grace that comes with that, so it's like, "Hey, you forgot your mask, can you put it on?" "Cool," like you have no problem?

Kyle Williams:
And I think, in those situations, I'm like, "Do I really want a student to be reported for that?" Like Lewis and Clark actually had a great kind of diagram that they use. If anyone is looking for diagram, Lewis and Clark had a great diagram that was very detailed for student to student and faculty to student. And so, trying to look at how we can implement something like that. Our institution is looking at, we're having educational conversations, and this is typical for what most institutions are doing educational conversation that occurs. There is the ability to have conversations with them and they we're sending out warning letters. But we're also doing an acknowledgement to remind students about what it is that they would do, which is wear your mask, to be respectful of people on campus like all the rules and regulations.

Kyle Williams:
And so like those are reportable, but it's simply as a reminder like, "Hey, just a reminder, this needs to happen and you need to follow the regulations." Because, I mean, we have to remember that a lot of times, we want to give warnings to students, but we can't do it, like we can't give two warnings, three warnings to people, because of the fact that we're in this pandemic. This ability to cut down this and why we're so strict, is because of the fact that we're in this health and safety issue. It can mean life and death for someone. You not wearing a mask around someone and I know that you're asymptomatic, can mean life or death for someone.

Kyle Williams:
And while there's all these different issues about masks and screenings, and everything else, we have to do our best to really protect our students. While Gott v. Berea said that in loco parentis was dead, we are in this space right now where we're also in control of our students. And I think that and I love quoting Chris Cuomo, some of my favorite people on CNN. Chris Cuomo said it best, "Parents are tired of their kids being at home." And I wrote a post really talking about that and I was like, "As much parents help us, help us on our campus," I said, "if you don't want your child coming home as quickly as you dropped them off, then we need you to help us. Talk about the masking policies. Talk about the positive evaluations that we need them to do."

Kyle Williams:
Because the sad part about it is it takes a small number of people to change the perception and to change the outcome for an entire institution. If it's a small outbreak and we can't control it, we have to send everybody home or we have to quarantine on campus and then send people home. So, I think it's one of those things where we have to really partner with our parents, let's partner with our students and do as much talking as possible. But so, that's something I have liked. The fact that we are trying to be as educational as possible.

Kyle Williams:
The one thing I don't like is that we can't be as educational as we want to be, but the reason why we can't be as educational as we want to be is because of the fact that we don't have the time. It only takes one or two students to impact, so many other students, and particularly at an urban institution, because of the fact they can go to another campus that we don't know about, and impact them or they can impact us, and then we're in an entirely different situation.

Kyle Williams:
And it can mean, I mean, like I don't want to make that phone call. In my college career, I've made that phone call once. I don't want to make it again, to talk about "Your son or daughter is in the hospital, and you need to get here immediately because they may not make it." And the hard part about that is in this day and age even if you get here, you probably can't even see them, so what does it mean? So, we've seen our students to be as safe as possible.

Alexandra Hughes:
That right there is the truth. I think those of us who had to A, make the phone call about someone being sick or B, make the phone call about "Your child is dead." Like, I don't think that people recognize it's another part of our job working in Student Conduct. We're the people that have to do that, right? And so, what does that mean for us to have those conversations because, and I love the way you said in the beginning like "I think of my students like my children, my kids."

Alexandra Hughes:
Like literally, I had a run to my office a couple of days ago after hours because I needed something. And I literally sat there and I said, "This is not, like this doesn't feel right," right? Like I always say, "I went to college and I never left." Like I love working at a university. And as annoying as it can be, when during the day, you're trying to get stuff done and people keep coming. And "I'm here to see Alexandra. I'm here to see Alex. I'm here to..." And I talk to you 30 minutes, an hour goes by. Talk to you 30 minutes, and I'm staying there late at night, because I didn't get stuff done. I know those conversations are so important because those students needed them. I know that they needed them for whatever reason that they came for whatever and to connect, and to have that.

Alexandra Hughes:
And to not be able to do that is just, it doesn't feel right and then more than anything, like I'm scared for my students. I'm scared because those of them who can stay home and they're fine, great. Those who have to come back or whatever that may be. It really is life or death. That's why we're in this situation from the beginning. Like let's be real, we live in a capitalistic society. The fact that we can be home, and we're allowed to be at home and work, something's wrong. And so, and I think even acknowledging that, and I love what you said. I think, maybe some of that marketing that institutions can look at is even really pulling in the parents. Parents help us, help us help your child because if they're hearing it from you, if they're hearing it from us, then that's a thing.

Alexandra Hughes:
I have something for you. So, I received a request the other day, because someone said that they cannot wear a mask for religious reasons.

Kyle Williams:
Oh, God.

Alexandra Hughes:
Wear the mask for religious reasons. So of course, so this is the part where I can share with the people because I know everyone wants to know kind of how this happened, so sorry, Pat. So of course, I get the report through our reporting system and like usual. And I mean, I've been ready for everything, like the ADA, the this, the that, I'm ready, I'm prepared, I have my stuff.

Alexandra Hughes:
And so she goes and there's a student and she goes, "Well, I can't wear my mask for religious reasons." And I said, "Wait. What?" Of course, I'm glad that I'm home and I'm not in the office so you can't see my face, but I guess if we were in the office, my mask wouldn't cover up my face. I said, "Wait, what? I'm sorry, what?" She goes, "Yeah. Well, I can't wear a mask for religious reasons."

Alexandra Hughes:
And so, of course, then all my student conduct staff talked to her about it. It was right place. You have religious accommodation, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But it was interesting, because in her conversation, she goes, "Well, yeah, I'm Christian. I can't wear a mask." And so, I didn't want to say like the I, identify, just as being Christian as well. And so, but that, that in itself was just, I said, "Okay, so where are we going with this?"

Alexandra Hughes:
Now, it was interesting when I was talking to the student, the student said, "Well, will I be able to get my money back if they don't approve my religious accommodations?" I said, "Well, what year are you?" "Oh, I'm a senior. This is my last year." And I said, "So, were you enrolled in the spring semester?" "Yeah, I was enrolled when everyone went online and we did all that." I said, "Okay, so you were here for that." I said, "Were you enrolled over the summer?" "Yes, I was enrolled over the summer."

Alexandra Hughes:
I said, "Okay. So, have you, I mean, you've gotten all of the literature from the institution that has said, "Our policy is this, if you come on campus, you have to wear a mask, you have to do this, you have to do that, and you have to follow the City and State, whatever, local ordinances, whatever that may be." "Oh, yeah, I got all that."

Alexandra Hughes:
And so, I said, "But then you waited until the first day of school to talk or to share your religious accommodations?" "Oh, yeah, well." I said, "Well, the sooner you could have done this, like over the summer, since you knew your religion didn't allow this, it probably would have been better, but we'll get back to you. The university will get back to you as far as what that may look like." But that was interesting. I wasn't expecting that one. I was not expecting that one at all to come in. I hadn't. I wasn't ready.

Kyle Williams:
I think that we're in a space now, so not only the masking issues, I think I've watched the local news. And I also have to admit, for those of you who are listening to this, so I've talked about how I'm also I'm a faculty member, one of my mentees this year, who's in the field, Rob Flowers, so he's participating. He has an interest in Student Conduct and so, he is here and learning all the things that we're dealing with throughout this year.

Alexandra Hughes:
Well, hi.

Kyle Williams:
Oh, [crosstalk 00:39:37].

Alexandra Hughes:
Let's just talk about her so that people can hear you.

Speaker 3:
Hello, que pasa, et cetera, et cetera.

Alexandra Hughes:
Okay, here we go.

Kyle Williams:
We're good.

Speaker 3:
[crosstalk 00:39:45].

Alexandra Hughes:
[Spanish 00:39:47]. Okay, I'll stop. It's a scam. It's okay.

Kyle Williams:
Right.

Alexandra Hughes:
We'll go back to what Dr. Williams was saying.

Kyle Williams:
So, I think we have to really look at we're dealing with a lot. As I'm watching the news in Missouri, we have people that don't want to wear masks and they're very big on "My body, my choice." So, that has come up. And so, how are we able to really talk about the health pandemic and how we are wearing masks because we need to do it for safety not only for ourselves, but for others. And it's going to be very interesting. I think when we look at how we deal with situations like that, I mean, like my institution is allowing students to take classes virtually. As a senior, let's help you get what you need, and allow you to take the classes virtually, because if you're not going to wear a mask, you can't come to campus.

Kyle Williams:
And I think, that's one thing, but then we also have to look at, our institution is also looking at you have to get a flu shot. Well, we know there are people who can't get flu shots, particularly and the fact that if you have certain allergens, you can't get a flu shot like medically, you're not able to get it and so, or religiously affiliated, you can't, you're not able to get it. So, how are we able to work around that process? So, I think that we're just in a space right now where we have to continue to show I think, the favored word is grace and understanding through all of these processes, and how am I able as a conduct professional to mitigate the risk of others, while also respecting what your religious affiliations and/or sometimes, people's preferences are saying that they do not want to do.

Kyle Williams:
So, I think that's where we are in this field, and really working at mitigating risk for the greater community because that's one only, something we need to do, but it's also part of our job because as conduct professionals where a lot of times are people that are always doing this work.

Alexandra Hughes:
Well, I mean, it's the same thing, like what we normally do. Normally, those greater risks are things like bomb threats or shooters on campus or et cetera, et cetera, put in something tragic here that are real things that we have to deal with and our colleagues have dealt with in this community. And now, it's just another thing that is as dangerous, you know what I mean, as one of those. It's just another thing. And so, I agree with you. And I think it's that balance piece, right? How do we do all of it, right? And how do we essentially just create these safe environments?

Alexandra Hughes:
If you're looking at housing, I know, for us our housing numbers, we have I think there's like 500 and something students that are going to be living on campus this year. So, clearly a significant decrease, right? But those are the 500 X amount of students that needed to live on campus for whatever reason, whether they don't have a home to go to or what does that look like? One of the things that I know I was talking about was looking at the possibility. And so, a lot of people don't know this, but I'm also or maybe, people do, I don't know what people know about me. But I also am faculty as well at our institution and I'm teaching a class.

Alexandra Hughes:
And so, one of the things that I realized was that as I'm planning out this semester, I kind of stopped my content like right at Thanksgiving, because I know, there's some institutions that are saying, "Well, we may not have students come back after Thanksgiving." And I know for us, it's kind of like every day like anyone else, every day is a new thing, right? But that's kind of how I framed the course, right? Just to maybe have some freedom. I don't know. Some extra space. Who knows? But it's kind of like, what do we do with that?

Kyle Williams:
Yeah. I mean, we've moved our semester, so at WashU, we don't... our undergrads start till September 14 and their exams are like after the New Year, so they have two parts of exams. For me, Edwardsville was actually, we were going to do a hybrid, so I probably would have met with my students on campus one week and then the first week of classes and then everything else is virtual until presentations. But because we had an outbreak, I mean, middle of America is seeing an increase. Because we had an outbreak at an institution close to ours, they moved very quickly to say everything is online. So, that is what we're dealing with and so, all of our classes are online right now, so I just gave a full semester.

Alexandra Hughes:
I mean, that's all that you really can do, right? I think it's one of those things where it's like every day... I mean, think about it. I laugh when I said because Monday was the first week of school and Zoom was out, like Zoom was out worldwide. I literally woke up and I just laughed. I said, "Welcome to 2020 like what do we expect," right? But we're coping through it and we're getting through that. I think that's the most important thing.

Alexandra Hughes:
It's interesting and I'm seeing more and more, even students coming in. And I think also it's recognizing, not just us, but like how is everyone kind of dealing with the fact that we're still in this? Like mental health is a huge thing. I'm a huge, huge person of mental health and therapy, and I advocate for everyone to go to therapy, right? But I'm really looking at we're months into this. Whether you want it to affect you or not, it's a real thing. So, how is that impacting our students? How successful of a semester do we really expect them to have when we're all trying to figure this out ourselves.

Kyle Williams:
It's going to be very interesting. I think as someone, I'm a big advocate of, of therapy. I will admit, on this podcast, I also have a therapist. Shout out to my JW time. And for me, my mental health has increased, like what people don't know about me is they see me like a lot of times at conferences and like, "Oh, you're such an extrovert." I'm actually an introvert-extrovert. So, my introvert has been like loving all of this. Now, I have my extrovert that's like, "I want to get out see people," but it's been like very refilling for me. My cup is like drained, so that it can be filled again.

Kyle Williams:
But I think we also have to think about how we deal with students in the social aspect that they want to be around and that extrovert-ness because there's just really, a lot of how we deal with it and I think we're going to see a lot of mental health increases. I think about Talkspace. If you've not heard about Talkspace, it's a great resource for you. I also listened to The Read, so if you do Talkspace/The Read, enjoy their discount. I'm not trying to promote them, but if you need something [crosstalk 00:46:56] discount. Talkspace/The Read, use their discount. But it's also if you look at Michael Phelps, the commercial with him, that people who are in need of it, it's a way you can text and video talk to a therapist, it's another great resource for people who need an outlet.

Kyle Williams:
I also think about my network, so I know people that I talk to, like Alex, we talk a lot. Other people I talk to a lot. Like we bounce off of one another, so the ability to have that is very important to kind of increase that social experience. So, I think we're going to see a more increased amount of people, who are seeking those types of resources, but then we also have to be aware of people, who may not have access to those resources, and how we can refer them. And I think right now, the telehealth experiences where they're trying to figure out how to create assistance for everyone because they're seeing a lot of increased experiences where that's needed.

Alexandra Hughes:
That's true. I mean, it's different. I think we've gotten used to this new normal, but hey, but we're going to figure it out, every day, that's what we do. So, with that, Dr. Williams?

Kyle Williams:
Yes.

Alexandra Hughes:
So, here's the thing. Everyone knows that I have been cricketing and putting vinyl on everything. And you've had to hear about this 57 times, it's okay. It'll be fine. I have loved cricket, I believe that everything, that if I could vinyl you, I would vinyl you. I mean, it's just, it's what I, like yeah. So, that's my thing. So, is there a book? Is there a song? Is there a hobby? Is there something that you have been doing that you have found that you would like to share with our wonderful, amazing podcasting listeners that you would share for you know?

Kyle Williams:
I think for me is creating a schedule for yourself. I know for me my [inaudible 00:48:53] schedule has been trash. It's just in trash. But I think the ability for me to still find those things I can hold on to, so I'm a runner, so I will run at lunch. I'm also into biking, so I'll bike, if I'm not running, I'll bike during lunch. I try and walk at night, so just creating that schedule for me. I also try and listen to a lot of podcasts and books on tape. so right now I'm listening to How To Be an Antiracist by Dr. Ibram Kendi. And so, the ability to listen to him, read his book, while I'm working through projects is very important. Finding great podcast I can listen to that just kind of make me laugh throughout the day, like I mentioned The Read earlier, that's a great one. Like there's a lot of things going on in the world that I just don't pay attention to, hip-hop culture and things like that, and so, [inaudible 00:49:46] listen to that.

Kyle Williams:
If you have Apple Music, the Beats 1 or Apple 1, they do like the new music daily and they talk to different artists throughout the day. So that's been great. And so just really trying to finding those rituals that you do kind of throughout your day. It's kind of like keep you going, particularly for me as someone who has a dog. My dog is not used to me being in the home. So, I think my dog is looking at me like, "Why are you still here? Like why am not I having my space? Like I'm used to you being gone 8, 10 hours a day, but you're here all the time now?" So, trying to manage that with him, creating our new normal for our working day, has been a struggle, but it's really kind of like solidified the way in which we interact with one another.

Kyle Williams:
So, I think that's something that I'm doing, it's been helpful. I also think that as safely as you can and then we also miss our families. My mom lives a gas tank away, so I can fill up my gas in my city and drive from my house to her house and not have to stop at all. And so, I think been trying to communicate safely, so I don't have to stop anywhere is important. So, I think about where can I go once I get gas, that stops me in places. I also FaceTime my mom throughout the day. And so, just really creating those spaces to create as much of the extrovert time I need, but also honoring that introvert time that I need. So, those are the things that I'm doing.

Alexandra Hughes:
I love it. I'm here for you. I actually think I need to take you up on one of the things that you said when it comes to like running during the day, like during that lunch hour. I think for me, it's figuring out, I used to always hate going to the gym after work. And I'd be like well, I'm not getting up in the morning early, but now since I'm at home and I wear leggings every day, and I probably need to work out because none of my work clothes fit. I'm thinking that maybe lunch working out maybe a pretty good idea, so I may have to try that. Well, I will definitely take that suggestion.

Alexandra Hughes:
Dr. Williams, if people would like to get in contact with you, where can they find you?

Kyle Williams:
You can find me on Facebook at Kyle Williams. You can follow me on Instagram @dr_krwilliams14. I think right now I've also just kind of been interested if you follow me on Twitter, I just, I'm politics a biz, that's been a new interesting thing for me and talking about, I watched the Democratic National Convention and I watched the Republican National Convention, just because you have to understand both sides of the story. So, I've been doing a lot of like listening to people and posting about things. So yeah, you can find me on those spaces or LinkedIn. LinkedIn at Kyle R. Williams, so look me up. I'm more than happy to connect with people.

Alexandra Hughes:
I'll make sure I attach everything in all the show notes for our wonderful listeners in case they want to connect with you, ask you questions, you are a wealth of knowledge. And I know that that is something that people can definitely benefit from in our field. So with that, we thank you. We thank you for coming on our show. Please come back in the future.

Kyle Williams:
Of course.

Alexandra Hughes:
We are so excited and always welcome to have you. And we hope that you stay safe, stay healthy, and we will speak with you soon.

Kyle Williams:
Right. Thank you all so much. I look forward to talk with y'all soon.

Alexandra Hughes:
This episode was produced, edited and hosted by Alexandra Hughes, that's me. If you're enjoying the podcast, we ask that you like, rate and review us on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. It really helps others discover us and become more visible to our podcasting community. If you have suggestions for future guests or would like to be featured on the podcast yourself, feel free to reach out to us by email at ascapodcast@gmail.com or on Twitter at ASCA Podcast. If you'd like to connect with me on Twitter, you can find me @Alexandra's view. Talk to us, wee talk back.