Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Colleges, universities and higher education in general are places filled with college students, all trying to make their mark on the world and find their place in college. Now, what their idea of making their mark is, is truly questionable, especially depending on who you ask, the generation that you are a part of, the decade that you went to college in and where you are in the country or world. As college administrators and faculty and staff, we have matured itself. And we recognize that the priorities of our traditional aged 18-year old college student do not necessarily match the things that we worry about. And this bar is the students are concerned, all of us are aged and old and not normal. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Now, the issues plaguing students are as broad and diverse as the populations of students themselves. And so how do we recognize that equity and access as our students all strive towards reaching their ultimate goal of graduation and student success? Join us in this episode as we dive into the role of student conduct officers and student accessibility services, and how we approach equity from our process and recognize that we may have to shift our approach, even just the little for ultimate student success. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Welcome to season three of the ASCA Viewpoints Podcast, the podcast where we talk about the student conduct profession in higher education. I'm Alexandra Hughes, your Viewpoints host. Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of the ASCA Viewpoints Podcast. As always, I am your host, Alexandra Hughes. And here we are. We are in the last week of October. I can't even believe that November is starting because what a year it has been. But weather's finally changing, well, at least for me. So full disclosure for some people, it's been cold and snowing for a while now. For some of us who live in like South Texas, i.e. me, it's still at 100 degrees. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: And so finally, this week it's been cold or what we consider cold, like it was 40, 50 degrees, 60 degrees. And so I have the windows open when I sleep at night. So now when I wake up in the morning, I play the game of, is my voice in my throat scratchy because of COVID or is it scratchy because of the flu? Or is it scratchy because I had a window open all night and cold air was blowing on me? Most likely it's because of the window being open. But the fear that runs through my body is still the same, still the same. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Wow, there's so much to say and so much has happened. I just want to thank everyone for all of the love that I received after last month's episode or the beginning of this month's episode and regard to finishing my degree and everything else. Just the wealth of support from this community is something that I'm always just inspired by and all inspired because it's amazing to see that us as student conduct professionals and higher education professionals, we are supporting each other and really making sure that we can be successful in so many different ways. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: And so that being said, because everyone was so amazing and just patient. And with me as I worked through doctorates and dissertations and everything else, I want to offer a gift to everyone so we can see how this goes. The ASCA Viewpoints Podcast is a podcast that comes out monthly. It's basically one episode a month. And that's what it's supposed to be. I know that all of my favorite podcasts are weekly. And quite frankly, there's a lot that's going on in the world today in which I can definitely do this weekly. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: And now, since I'm completely done with school and doctrine and everything else, I want to have a challenge and I want to put an episode out every week until the end of the year. And then we can regroup. We can see how it goes. If you all love it, we will keep it. If you don't love it, then we can change it. But I really think that with everything that's going on and everyone that has so much important information to give and things to say, that this would be really fun and really exciting. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: A few announcements for people just so we're all on the same page. In case you didn't know, now you know. ASCA 2021, the conference, our annual conference, is going to be virtual. COVID pandemic, it's a thing. But we want to make sure that we now have access to so many people who maybe in the past wouldn't have been able to attend the conference due to fiscal or financial reasons, due to institutions or whatever that may be. Now we can all be there and support each other in this virtual setting. I'm really looking forward to it. I'm super, super excited for what it's going to be. There's a lot of great stuff in stores. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I just want to go ahead and just put out a reminder to make sure that you are registering for that, as well as a submitted proposal. For the conference, the conference consists of people who are giving presentations and giving research and doing all of that. So please do that. Please submit a proposal. And if you don't want to submit a proposal, you can also sign up to be a proposal reviewer. So there's so many different roles that people can have in reference to the conference. So I just want to encourage people to do that. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Next week is an election and this is going to be a national election. So of course, since I'm telling you that I'm giving you podcast episodes every week, you can already guarantee that next week we're going to talk about some things that can be done in reference to the fact that there is an election. How can we make sure that we are putting messaging out, that's protecting our students? How can we make sure that we are letting people know that, no matter what way this election falls and whoever it is that you support, that there will be disappointed people on both sides, right? So what does that look like as far as institutions? And how can we ensure and hold space and have these conversations? So we'll talk and get a little bit into that next week. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: But I'm excited, for this week, I have an episode that centers around that of student accessibility services and our office. So the person that I interviewed actually does not work in student conduct, but rather she is the director of student accessibility services. And so she really gives a lot of insight into making sure that we are providing equitable spaces and equitable processes for people that exist and have all different types of abilities and disabilities. And so I think this is a very important conversation to have. And so just something for us to keep on our radar. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: So I want to introduce to everyone Dr. Tonya Paulette. Dr. Paulette is the current Director of Student Accessibility Services at The University of Texas Rio Grande Valley in Edinburg, Texas. Dr. Paulette has devoted more than 25 years to working in the field of disabilities, with seven years in higher education and 14 years in public school districts, where her roles included Educational Diagnostician, Autism Services Coordinator, and Licensed Specialist in School Psychology. She holds a doctorate in educational leadership, as well as a master's degree in psychology and is a licensed professional counselor. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: And so I am so excited that we had her on the show. I hope that you enjoy the conversation. It really, I think it put a lot of things into light for me just as a conduct educator and someone that is a part of the student conduct process and things that I think even myself, I need to be reminded of just as we do this work every day. So with that, I hope everyone continues to stay safe. Please stay healthy. And I look forward to connecting with you all soon. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Hello, Dr. Paulette, and welcome to the show. So we are so excited to have you here. And if you could, for the people, and just as comfortable as you're talking about, if you could share a little bit about like who you are, what you do, and remember we are on a recorded podcast. So tell us a little bit about you? Dr. Tonya Paulette: So first of all, I'm glad to be here today. And I am the Director of Student Accessibility Services at The University of Texas Rio Grande Valley. I've been in this role for about five years now. And prior to that, I worked as a counseling specialist in the department. And even prior, I worked at a community college in Louisiana as a counselor. So I have a good deal of experience in working with people with disabilities. I've also worked in the public schools before as a licensed specialist in school psychology and a coordinator of autism services. So my experience is pretty extensive in terms of working with persons with disabilities, and it's really something that I've always been drawn to. And now that I'm working in this field in higher ed, it's something that I've really come to enjoy as well. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: So for people who may have put two and two together, you said you work at UTRGV, and that's also where I work. So I get to work with you all of the time, which is why I knew that you would be fantastic really just to kind of talk about these things, dealing with ability and disability and what that looks like. And so I think in our field of Student Conduct, we're constantly talking about the student accessibility services, but not everyone necessarily has a good idea of what that office is, especially if they're new to the field, especially if they haven't had to work with your office. So could you tell us a little bit about your office of student accessibility services? What is it? What does it aim to do? That way, people have just a general understanding? Dr. Tonya Paulette: Sure. Well, Student Accessibility Services is the department that's been designated at the university to determine reasonable accommodations for students with disabilities. And this is specifically for those students who self-identify and register with our office. And it's also for students who are seeking accommodations that are related to pregnancy and parenting. That's a support that we have began providing over the last year and a half to two years. Dr. Tonya Paulette: And so I would say our mission for the department is really to facilitate equal access, and that's for persons with disabilities or those students who are seeking accommodations related to pregnancy and parenting. And it's also to inform the university community of their responsibilities. And that is in accordance with federal laws, such as ADA Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act. And then of course also Title IX when it comes to pregnancy and parenting. Dr. Tonya Paulette: We serve typically about 450 students each fall and spring semester. We know that there are probably many students with disabilities who do not seek services through our department. And of course, that's perfectly fine if they don't need our support. But we also believe that there's a need for us to continue reaching out and informing the university community that not only do we exist, but what our purpose is in serving those students. So this is a great opportunity to do that. So thank you, Alex. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Well, I think that's important for us to talk about. So one of the things is that students have to self-identify. And I think that's also really just a hard thing because I think that people don't recognize that you, as the student have to go into the office and say, look, this is something that I have, whether that's something in the past, something that I'm seeking to get tested for. But I don't think people recognize that that they have to be the ones that self-identify. Is that like a problem that you come across in your field and your day-to-day. Dr. Tonya Paulette: I think sometimes it can be a problem. There's lots of reasons why students would not want to identify as having a disability. Some of that is still related to stigma. Some of it could be cultural. It could just be individual preference. We have students sometimes that will come to us from high school saying, "I've had accommodations for X number of years. And I think now going into college, I want to try to do it without accommodations." Unfortunately, what we found is that often doesn't work out in the student's favor. They'll find themselves struggling academically without those supports that they needed and had previously. And then they'll come to us, but it's certainly a more difficult path because then they're having to work to catch up at that point. Dr. Tonya Paulette: But yeah, I think there's lots of reasons why students don't self-identify. Sometimes it could just be the steps that they have to take to do that. For example, because we're virtual, fortunately, we have an online platform where students can register, apply and submit their documentation that's related to the disability. So everything can be uploaded online. And we are even conducting our intakes, the initial interactive process virtually. So we're trying to make this as simple as possible for students, but even some of that sometimes can feel a little overwhelming I'm sure. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Well, I can imagine. And then on top of that, you add this another barrier of the fact that we are online and COVID and how everything had to change. If we're looking at access and the fact that we were saying, "Okay, well, now everyone's just going to get a computer and jump online and we're going to do things virtually." I think from a abled-person perspective, it was just a very "easy" option. And I say easy with air quotes because we're talking about even just access to computers and stuff. But even as someone who say, has my eyesight. I'm like, "Oh, that's simple, that's easy." But that may not have necessarily been the best option for somebody else. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: And I think just from things that I've read and things that I've seen where there are a lot of students who may have been forgotten about if they didn't have an office like yours where you were working so actively hard to make sure that all of these students had the access and ability to ensure that they could get the same quality of education online that they did in class. And I know that just because I work with you. So that was great. So plug shoutout to you. But I think that's so important for us to talk about. We didn't even think about it when it came to COVID. And how does that impact our students when it comes to COVID? Dr. Tonya Paulette: Yeah, and I think you make a good point. There's certain ways that this transition to the virtual learning world has affected many of our students, even just as you had said about just having a computer, having internet access, not sharing that bandwidth with maybe four or five other people in your home, it's been a challenge. I know for me alone, I needed to upgrade my internet access because I was having difficulty with virtual Zoom meetings. I was constantly having times that it would cut out. Dr. Tonya Paulette: So I know that even that, although it was inconvenient, fortunately I had the means to do that relatively easily, but not everyone does. So when you think about that in terms of access, and then all of our students with disabilities, there can be layers of complications that they're having to overcome in order to function in the online environment. Dr. Tonya Paulette: I think a lot about our students that have reported concerns related to anxiety. Sometimes it's related to testing online and having webcams as part of the proctoring process that faculty implement, and rightfully so. And as you know, it has to do with academic integrity and test integrity. So that needs to be insured. But for some of our students with significant anxiety disorders, having a camera on at all times, especially, let's say during a testing environment where you're already stressed, that can create additional layers of difficulty or challenge for those students. And so that's just one of the examples that we've seen fairly common in the recent months, and especially since March, since everything, all the courses, I shouldn't say all, but most of the courses shifted online. It's become a real issue for many of our students. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Right. And that makes sense. And that kind of works. I know one of the things that I wanted to ask you about was the difference between visible disabilities and invisible disabilities. I think that a lot of people have a perception of what one may or may not look like or what a disability may or may not look like. And so just as what you said, someone may have really severe anxiety or whatever that may look like. And so as far as being on camera all the time, taking an exam, all of that, that's not helping that situation. Could you talk a little bit just about like what the differences are between visible disabilities and invisible disabilities? And then how will they present even in the work that you do? Dr. Tonya Paulette: Sure. I think that is a real concern because I know that in having conversations with students that would sometimes register with us and say, "I didn't know this was for an office for students with, let's say, mental health conditions. I thought it was really an office that helped people who used wheelchairs." And so that goes back to that sense that it's only visible disabilities that would "matter," again, air quotes, especially in the context of receiving supports through an institution of higher ed. Dr. Tonya Paulette: But when you think about the visible disabilities, another couple of terms that are used for that are apparent or obvious. I personally like apparent. I think that that resonates with what really is describing that type of characteristic. And what is being discussed at that point is a disability that manifests itself in terms of how it is visible or apparent and its characteristics to others. Dr. Tonya Paulette: And so I think what we most frequently think about, as I mentioned earlier, students will say, well, if's somebody who has a mobility or orthopedic impairment that I can observe maybe because they use a wheelchair, they may use a Walker or a cane for mobility assistance or something, or they would have some sort of visible difference maybe in their gait, the way that they walk. And so another example that comes to mind also is a student who is blind and they may use a cane or even a service animal to help them navigate the physical environment. So those tend to be the characteristics of disabilities that people would refer to as apparent or visible. Dr. Tonya Paulette: And so when we think about invisible, it's actually a much larger group or category of disability. Also, I would say referred to as a non-apparent, another term for that. But that would include mental health conditions, learning disabilities, attention deficit type of disabilities, and even many of the chronic medical or health conditions. So a person may be receiving for example, chemotherapy, but that's not something that would be obvious to somebody who might be observing this individual, not unless perhaps they were to share it with them in an individual- Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Right. Right. Dr. Tonya Paulette: So really the much larger category of disabilities is that that is non-apparent. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Okay. Okay. And so that's a perfect example. Someone's going through chemotherapy. And then, let's take chemotherapy in the COVID-19 environment, the exhaustion, the hair... Like all the things that are coming along with that, but then still being required to participate, be active for class. Someone may not even recognize that, but that's something that, again, your office can help with. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Okay. So since we're on the idea of terminology, talk to me a little bit about terminology when we're dealing with things such as neurotypical and neurodivergent, and what that means? I know that there's Netflix shows that talk about this. For example, there's one that I just watched called Love on the Spectrum. There is one... There's a show on Netflix called Atypical. But they're dealing with these different terminologies. Could you share a little bit about that with our listeners and what that is? Dr. Tonya Paulette: Sure. I think the reason that those shows are popular is that people want to learn more about differences. And sometimes it is specifically related to autism spectrum. There is some discussion about or not those are accurately depicting individuals who are on this spectrum and that's a whole other subject. But I will say the term neurotypical is a term that's usually used to define or describe individuals who have typical development. So we're thinking of children as they are developing through developmental stages. And so we think about also that typical intellectual or cognitive development. Dr. Tonya Paulette: So neurotypical is not usually used to describe individuals on the autism spectrum or those with other developmental differences, but the term that would be used in those cases would be neurodivergent. And it's commonly used, but I wouldn't say that it's so common in our language that everybody's familiar with it. So it's good to talk about what that might mean. And so really those are the individuals that tend to fall on that spectrum and it's due to an atypical pattern of thought or behavior and in sense of neurological development. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Okay. That makes sense. And I'm glad that you broke that down because I think part of it too is if we're not in this field and we're not aware of the different terminologies, then a lot of that can become like we're talking about atypical, what is, neurodivergent? What isn't? And so even as you're having these conversations, it's like, "Well, what does that look like?" And also language is important. People are very cognizant of the language that we're using because we want to make sure that we are inclusive in all settings. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: So of course, this is a student conduct show, so I would have to talk about student conduct. And I think this is something that we often in student conduct. And I'll be honest, struggle with. When it comes to student conduct professionals and then maybe having cases with students that may be somewhere, for example, on the spectrum or may be the neurodivergent. And so I know for us, we have a lot of conversations around that and I don't expect you to have like all the answers. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: But as far as, number one, if what we're doing is appropriate in a particular situation, dealing with someone who may be neurodivergent and that's always so hard for us in a behavioral setting. You know? Well, and I'm just thinking about it from a behavioral and in a classroom piece, maybe for example, we have a student that has, I don't know, some type of meltdown in class. And the professor takes it as this student being completely disrespectful, completely... Kicks them out of class or what that may look like, and that wasn't the case, but how do we make sure that we are addressing the behavior, not penalizing the student for something that they may not necessarily have control over, but then there's accountability? And we're always going back and forth with what is right in these particular situations? Dr. Tonya Paulette: And just as you're describing it, I think that reinforces fact that it can be very complex. It is nuanced, there's multiple layers, and above all, each individual, whether they have a disability or not, they're unique. And so the way that an individual student interprets, let's say, language or a social or classroom environment, I think it's really important to have an understanding of their perspective before making assumptions. Dr. Tonya Paulette: And so I think about a situation that, I'm working with one of our faculty members on now, and it happens to be a student who is on the spectrum. He has shared that with the faculty member. So she's aware of it. And that's something we can talk about too in terms of what my office would be able to share and not share just as an aside, we would not share a student's disability information. But what I find is many times that students who are on the spectrum are very upfront with that information. I have to caution people, though, that just because a student says, "I have autism," that doesn't really tell you more than a diagnosis. It doesn't tell you how that manifests in that individual student. So again, no assumptions is the way to go. What we can talk with other departments and faculty about is how a student's behavior might manifest itself in a classroom and how some recommendations on how to address it. So ultimately, it is clearly on an individual basis as to how those situations or behaviors could be addressed. Dr. Tonya Paulette: So some of the things I think about in terms of considerations for the conduct process, of course, conduct offices at universities can always partner with accessibility offices as we do many times, so that we can work together to support the student. We have a common goal. We want to see our students proceeding through the education process in order to achieve their goal of getting the degree and potentially career after that. So I think starting with some of the basics is important. For example, how does this individual student interpret language? Dr. Tonya Paulette: So something as simple as, and this came up in this case, what does it mean to be disrespectful? So I heard the faculty member saying, "I told him he was being disrespectful. I told him he was being disruptive and it occurred to me, has anyone asked the student what that means to him?" Because we could be talking about two completely different concepts, but we, the nonautistic individual could have a different concept of what the student might have. So I think it's really important to ask the student what their experience and understanding is despite the language that's being used in the code of conduct, in the faculty course requirements in the syllabus because that individual could have a really different understanding. Dr. Tonya Paulette: And I know, Alex, too in working with you that many times your office takes an opportunity. And I think it's a wonderful way to address these issues to help the student understand what the requirements are, the expectations for behavior, for code of conduct. And then really meeting in the middle to ensure that student understands what those requirements are and how they might appear in their own behavior. Dr. Tonya Paulette: And I think the final thing I'll say is just being very clear in the use of language so that there's no nuances, there's no sarcasm. It has to be quite literal. In other words, so student A, when you say x, y, z, that is being disrespectful. That's an example of being disruptive. And so you just have to be really straightforward, of course, with respect and consideration, but being very clear in the language that you're using so that you know the student will understand. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I really liked that. And even as you sit and talk about, some of the things that came to my mind were, one, like you said, stereotypes. So making sure that we recognize that we can't let allow our own stereotypes and biases of what a particular ability or disability may look like, influenced the way that we are interacting with that student. But what I really, really like is what you said. We have a lot of assumptions, and I know that one of the things that, for example, say you're on the spectrum or dealing with autism in different ways. Like you said, the sarcasm, the nuances, the we have, and by we, I mean the neurotypical people, we've created these nuances in a lot of nonverbal communication and speak... Which really doesn't mean this, when I say this, I really mean this. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: And honestly, if you think about it, be confusing. And I think one of the ways I think about that is when we're looking at someone who may be international or maybe coming from a different country coming in, and when I say a certain phrase, they're like, "Wait, I don't understand that." Or maybe the, I don't know, the hand signals that I'm using, they're like, "But we don't... That doesn't mean that in my particular culture." And I don't want to compare it and say it's the same thing. But I think it's a good place to start when we're very careful to use certain language or very careful to do exactly what you said. We're not using sarcasm. We're being very literal in that to make sure that we are allowing us to come to an understanding. And I think that's important. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I also liked what you said, just asking the question. So what is disrespectful to you? Because we may be thinking or that professor may be thinking, "Oh, this is obvious." This particular behavior, student doing x, y, z is disrespectful. And in fact, that was never the intention or even understanding of that student in that particular case. And so I recognized that, and I think that that's something that we take for granted a lot of times. Dr. Tonya Paulette: It's a great point. You mentioned nonverbal language, nonverbal communication. And that's one thing also that characteristic or hallmark in terms of an autism diagnosis. And again, individually different in terms of how it impacts the student. But looking at how we communicate frequently using nonverbal cues, and that could be a facial expression, it could be me looking away or looking at my phone because the person's talking too much and I'm trying to indicate nonverbally that I need to leave and go do something else, or I'm not interested, those are often things in terms of the pragmatic or social language that a person who's on the spectrum will have difficulty noticing and fully understanding. Dr. Tonya Paulette: So that's why I think the literal communication and clear communication, again, with respect and regard for that person's intelligence for sure, but thinking about how those things that we typically do on a daily basis may not be something that's part of that person's communication rapporteur. And so just being aware. But you make an excellent point too, Alex, in terms of looking at other students who might have some similar difficulties with language, especially our international students, since English is not the first language. So I think this is a really nice way to look at how we can facilitate access for of why diversity of students? And I do think that sometimes disability gets lost in the picture of diversity. Disability is a very rich part facet of diversity. And so sometimes that's left out. So this really is another way to look at how we can support access for all. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I like that. And I think you're right. I think it is a part that gets this DE&I conversation, Diversity, Inclusion and Equity. A lot of times it's just race. A lot of times it's just gender, but there's so much more than that. And it's about ability. It's about access in so many different ways. I know some time ago, I think I was having a conversation with somebody at a conference and they hadn't mentioned, maybe for example, and well, okay, I'll just share the secrets. We know that student conduct offices are scary. We know that every student that walks into the student conduct office period automatically thinks they're going to be suspended or expelled from the institution. I don't care student ability. Just period. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: And so it's funny when that happens because there are times, and I will be honest and admit where we may allow students to sweat in that nervousness for a little bit, even though we know that the cases never going to be suspension or expulsion. But we know that they sweat in it. And so we talked to them and just get them to understand the magnitude of the case. I can fully, I will fully admit to having done that myself in particular situations. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: But I know that one of the things that I learned at conference, and then I believe I actually came back and asked you about it. This was like years ago. But was looking at, for example, if I may be working with someone who has disclosed to me that they are on the spectrum, where that I know, even when they come into the office, being able to right up front saying, I am like... Almost like tell you the sanctions upfront. And figuring out what that looks like. And I know that's hard in every student conduct case because it doesn't always work like that. But even it's something as simple as me saying, "Okay, so suspension and expulsion are completely off the table." And allowing that student because the anxiety or whatever that may look like to not sit in that space really yields more of a productive meeting and conversation for us moving forward. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: And I think another tip that you gave me some time ago was, maybe it might be that I have to do my meeting in two parts or three parts with the student. So maybe you were good for 20 or 30 minutes, or maybe it's really, you have to come in and meet with me. And I have to tell you the process and tell you what we're not looking at. And then you leave and then come back maybe I don't know, and do another 30 minute meeting and say, "Okay, so this is what we are." I know that those are some tips that you gave me some time ago that were really helpful. But I know as conduct officers and we let people sit in there. And I don't think that's always helpful. Dr. Tonya Paulette: I agree, Alex. And thank you for sharing those tips. I had forgotten that we had talked about them previously. I do think it's important. And if you think about diversity of our students, and this is at every institution, there's a wide range and that's wide range of experiences, backgrounds, cultures, intellectual abilities, language abilities, all the things that we've been talking about. And so if you want to provide the greatest form of access, it's starting with a way to communicate what's going on in terms of the student's code, I'm sorry, the student's conduct so that they can hear it and they can process it. Dr. Tonya Paulette: So I think that's why it's really important to start with something that's off the table, something that's on the table, and then it really interacting with that student and checking in for their understanding. It's okay to say, "Tell me again, what we're talking about. Tell me what you're understanding that I'm saying," so that you can get that feedback from them and get a better gauge on where they are in their understanding. Dr. Tonya Paulette: I know the last thing that any conduct officer would want to do is to have this long discussion with limited feedback from the student, and then the student leaves not knowing what just happened. And I know you know this too, but in terms of just the anxiety, the emotion that can be a part of those, sometimes anger, those emotions shut down certain parts of being able to listen effectively because you're so worried about what that outcome might be. Dr. Tonya Paulette: And so I think for students with disabilities, it's no different. However, sometimes that may be exacerbated because they already have a condition of anxiety or they already have some sort of communication or developmental difference. And so I say it's no different, but in the end, the impact could be very different in terms of their understanding. So starting with a broad communication, narrowing it down, getting their feedback so that you know what they understand, I think that could be really helpful. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: I think that's probably what we need to do just period in cases with students overall. I think we need to get out of this fear that comes with our office. I literally met with the student this morning and he's like, "Wow, you're really nice. I didn't think that you'd be really nice." And it was a situation that happened and they had police and staff answered, and he was like, "Yeah, the police officer, wasn't really nice. And I thought you'd be the same way, but you're not." And I'm like, "Well, I guess depending on who you talk to, maybe not everyone." I would say the same thing and they may not think that I'm so nice. But I also think there's a way to talk to people. People are going to not remember what you say. They're going to remember how you made them feel. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: And for me, I always stand on that and always stand on going back to what is the story? What happened? And that's really exactly what you said, what is your understanding of respectful or disrespectful? What is your... Because students can sit there and say, "Oh, I had no idea that was disrespectful." I didn't even know... If we're looking at just generationally, things that are... Just all types of stuff changes. And I think that that's important because then we can now be on a common ground and it might be something as simple as a student saying, "Oh, I didn't know. Oh, okay." We'll never do that again." And that's literally all it is. But I do think there's a piece of being held accountable, but it's the way that we get there that I think makes the difference. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: One of the things that I wanted to talk about, and I think you'll, it's an old case that we had, and I think it's fascinating. And this was from about four years ago and it's a case that I had, and I wanted to just share it as a way for our offices to work together. Because I think one of the things that conduct officers struggle with is, again, and I go back to what I say is, does someone have the ability to understand that what they did was wrong? And sometimes it takes a little bit more maybe research, a little bit more insight, a little bit more help to get there. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: And so I know we had a student X from about four and a half years ago. And our Title IX laws were different. Everything was different at the time. We were under a different administration. Just everything was just a different world. But in this particular case, I remember because he had some cases prior to me getting to the institution that were dealing with Title IX. So, he had exposed himself in the past in different things when it comes to being on campus. He actually had been suspended. I think the old assistant director before I had retired before I came in, actually had done that work over time. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: And so at this particular individual, he had a TBI and was in a wheelchair. And so with that, that was something that he disclosed to our office. We had all the paperwork. He actually had paperwork that said that our office, your office and my office could share information so because he had signed all the forms and stuff, which was really helpful. But again, we had another situation and I think at the time it was like two or three reports that came in basically saying that the student had done this behavior again, where he had exposed himself again to another student, a young lady, as well as he was asking for help to get out of his wheelchair and had actually touched her breast area in that interaction. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: And so when those reports came in, it was very clear that the students were extremely uncomfortable, but they were also like, I don't know if knows what he's doing that type of thing. And so for me, it was very fascinating as a conduct officer at that time when I was dealing with this case, I want it to be very careful, very intentional and very respectful, but also make sure that I'm holding both the process and him accountable, but making sure that I'm fair in all senses. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: And so I know for me, one of the things that I did was, outside of getting all the past information was, because he gave us the permission to working with your office. And I know one of the things that I did when it came to the TBI because he was arguing that he may not have had the capacity to know what he was doing, but he also was an engineering major, making like a 4.0 or something. It was something incredible. And he was extremely knowledgeable. He was extremely aware of what was going on and everything else. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: And so for me, it took me going a step further to really get that information and talk to his professors because I asked if maybe they had seen any type of difference in his behavior, for example, maybe a part of that TBI had affected him differently because these things happened within a certain week. And really the whole situation and everything, it really just took me taking a step further. And I remember talking to you about that case and saying like, "Is this crazy what I'm doing? Does it make sense? Have you noticed stuff? And that one was hard. It was really, really hard for us to do that." I remember that. I don't know if you remember that. Dr. Tonya Paulette: I do remember it very well. It stood out to me as well because this was a student that our department was very familiar with. He would come to our office frequently for proctored exams. He would come for assistance with technology. Basically, any kind of need that he had, he would start with our department. So we were very familiar with him. Some of the staff having almost daily, if not, weekly communications with him over a period of some years. So fortunately, we did have that rapport with him and knew him rather well. And so I think that helped in us being able to share what we thought his motivations might have been, his level of understanding of his behavior because we had a good period of frequent interaction with him that we, as a group had been able to observe. Dr. Tonya Paulette: It wasn't just one person a couple of times, but we knew him very well. And we also knew when he might try to get something or request something that really wasn't something he was eligible for and the way that he would navigate those kinds of requests. So there was a pattern of behavior that we had seen over time in terms of his communications, him taking responsibility or not taking responsibility for his actions. And I think that allowed us to be able to say, although you can't be 100% certain, this is the type of pattern of behavior and communication we've seen with him. And it sounded like at that time that was being supported through other people at the university as well, the faculty, for example. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: It was. And I remember, like you said, I sat down with a lot of people because I really wanted to make sure that I was able to get a good picture the best that I could. And that's really what we do in any case. And we're luckily, our standard of evidence and everything else. And I remember actually talking to him because he was in a wheelchair and he came into the office. And I remember our initial conversation when I was first meeting him and just meeting him for the first time. And he did have a speech impediment and different things that I think would lead people to assume that his brain function was abnormal. And I'm trying to make sure I'm using the proper terminology. So if I'm not, please forgive me. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: And it was interesting because we were talking, but then after I did all the investigations and met with him a couple of times, I remember sitting down with him and saying, "Wait a second. After everything I've learned, let's have a real conversation here. You know exactly what's going on." And he ended up admitting to everything and this and that. It was almost like the guys. I pulled the curtains down and he just sat there and then went through it and recognized and we went from there and we did have to hold them accountable in that particular instance. But that was, I think just hard to navigate because on one hand you want to make sure that you are recognizing and understanding that different things impact people in different ways and our ability to have motor control, our ability for impulse decisions and judgments and all those things can be off. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Let's be real. I think if you're like... Well, it takes you to be 25 before even... Your what? Your prefrontal cortex and all this other stuff develops period. That's college, 18 year olds. I just go back to that. In the middle of COVID, I look at them and I'm like, "You do know you can not have a party in the residence hall." Okay. All right. So whatever, I digress." But I think that was what was really hard about that, but just making sure that I exhausted, I think every opportunity option avenue that I could to make sure that I felt comfortable and our office felt comfortable in moving that case forward. It was hard, but I think it worked out for the best. Someone may disagree. Dr. Tonya Paulette: And when you talk about making sure that there is accountability. And I would agree with you, there is a student code of conduct for a reason, and just like there's laws and regulations that each of us have to abide by, if we don't, there are consequences. I think of a very common one, a speeding ticket. If you're speeding and you get caught speeding, then you're likely to get a ticket and you have to pay a fine, or sometimes worse if you have multiple tickets. So we think about students with multiple disciplinary actions. Dr. Tonya Paulette: But I think there's a purpose for those things. And whether you have a disability or not, you still should be held accountable as with anyone else. Having a disability does not provide you with some sort of advantage automatically. And even the accommodations that our office would approve for an individual student, those are not considered an advantage either. I think it's really important to note that those are put into place to level the playing field to provide that equal access because of a barrier that the student is experiencing. And so when I think about the student that we're discussing with TBI, so you couldn't say every student with a TBI would not understand the motivation behind their own behavior, the consequences of that behavior because that's just simply not accurate. It depends on the individual and how that disability impacts them in a very unique way. So- Dr. Alexandra Hughes: The reality is we're all snowflakes. And like every snowflake is different. And I think we're all snowflakes. So that's like the best thing ever. So I think that the takeaway of this whole conversation. Everyone is a snowflake. Be a magical snowflake and live in the snowflakeness. That's my advice for people. Well, with that, so let me ask this, Dr. Paulette, is there anything that maybe we didn't talk about or that I didn't ask you that you want our fellow student conduct people to remember as we're working through cases and COVID and 2020 in life, anything at all? Dr. Tonya Paulette: I think you've touched on it and probably I have too a few times. But I think it is about meeting people where they are, understanding their uniqueness, and also just emphasize, again, considering that disability as a part of diversity. Like we were discussing earlier many times, I think it's left out of that definition, but it certainly is a part of it. And if you look at social justice through the ages, you can see that there are some comparative ways that people have fought for their rights that have disabilities along with those of other diverse groups. And so I think there's actually more in common than what we have in terms of differences. And I just encourage people to really look at it from that perspective. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: Well, with that, we appreciate you, your time, everything on our show. I think that people will really get a lot out of this because I know I did just talking to you and making sure that I'm like, "Oh, I didn't even think about that." Or things that are just we need a reminder of, and I think that that's just so important. So thank you for that. If people want to reach you, can they email you? Can I put your email information in the show description notes for people? Is that okay? Dr. Tonya Paulette: Absolutely. Yeah. Dr. Alexandra Hughes: All right. Perfect. So then that will be good. If anyone has like some questions, they can reach out to you and just ask. And so with that, everyone, we will see you on the next episode. This episode was produced, edited and hosted by Alexandra Hughes. That's me. If you're enjoying the podcast, we ask that you like, rate, and review us on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps others discover us and become more visible to our podcasting community. If you have suggestions for future guests, or would like to be featured on the podcast yourself, feel free to reach out to us by email at ascapodcast@gmail.com, or on Twitter @ascapodcast. If you'd like to connect with me on Twitter, you can find me @alexandrasview. Talk to us! We talk back!