Jill:               Welcome to season two of the [ASCA] Viewpoints Podcast. The podcast where we talk about the student conduct profession in higher education. I am Jill Creighton your Viewpoints host.

Jill:               Today's episode features Beth Devonshire Esquire. Beth is an experienced student affairs professional with expertise in student conduct, Title IX, BIT teams, policy development training for various constituencies and the impact legislative and legal decisions have on higher education.

Jill:               Beth is a graduate of Stone Hill College with a degree in English and Secondary Education and she holds a JD from Suffolk University School of Law. Prior to her work in higher education, Beth served as a law clerk for the Justices of the Superior Court in Massachusetts and in multiple roles at the Massachusetts State House.

Jill:               Today in our conversation you're going to hear us chat about the Title IX proposed regulations, a bit about her time in policy work, how she writes the ASCA Law and Policy report and just some other general conversations, her identity and student conduct. Really loved our conversation, hope you do as well.

Jill:               Welcome to the podcast. Beth Devonshire Esquire. Beth comes to us as a consultant for Equity Compliance and Title IX and Civil Rights Training at the consulting firm D.Stafford and Associates and Beth also writes our ASCA Law and Policy report. Welcome Beth.

Beth:               Thanks Jill. Thanks for having me.

Jill:               We're going to be digging in with you today on your expertise on policy. I think you have a fascinating perspective to offer as the author of the Law and Policy report. I'm really looking forward to hearing your insights on that. As we do with all of our guests, we'd love to hear first, how did you get to your seat at D. Stafford?

Beth:               Sure. I'll start in the beginning, because according to the sound of music it's a really find place to start. My journey is kind of off the charts weird and kind of twisty and turny. I think it speaks to if you have a plan, it's going to change and being open to whatever the Universe throws at you.

Beth:               When I was in undergrad I was not in any way, shape or form your typical student affairs person, in the prep program. I was not an RA. I have worked with many of my former RA's and RD's and it is a source of jokes about how I used to interact with them.

Beth:               I was a student athlete, and I probably didn't make the best choices while I was in undergrad, but I think it actually served me well to have an understanding of the not-so-typical-student-leader-college experience. I left college, I went to work at the Massachusetts State House.

Beth:               For about six years I was there in a bunch of different capacities. I learned, truly, how laws get made. I sat... I was a policy director, a legal research person. I wrote the policies. I was a Chief of Staff for one of the committee's. My final job, I was actually Deputy Council for House Ways and Means.

Beth:               I was part of the budget committee, or part of the committee that oversees the budget. While I was at the State House, I went to Law School. I literally would write the policies during the day and then at night, go learn how I should be writing the policies.

Beth:               A bunch of us, when I would never, ever take away the experience that I learned at the State House, from constituent services, where you have to learn how to serve the folks, the bigger impact of democracy, the rule of law, how important those things are and bipartisanship.

Beth:               You could completely disagree with somebody personally, or politically, but the ability to go across the aisle and come up with something that was able to serve both sides, I think is something that is an invaluable skill in Higher Ed.

Beth:               I credit my time at the State House for doing that. After the State House, I finish up. I was a law clerk for a year for the Superior Court of Massachusetts. The same court that saw Adam Hernandez go to jail. It's the same court that decided Elizabeth Shin's case.

Beth:               I did that for a year, both the criminal and on the civil end and those clerkship's only go for a year. While I was there, I remember there was a rape case, and it was a high school student who was provided lots of alcohol and then subsequently raped by four other high school students.

Beth:               I remember thinking as I watched the trial and especially her testimony, and the testimony of the men who were being convicted. I remember I was there the day in which one of the 17-year-olds was sentenced to 20 years in jail.

Beth:               I remember thinking to myself, "We failed. We as a society failed. What could we have done, as a society, to help where this would have never happened?" Not victim blaming, not blaming anyone, just how did we fail? What messages do we provide our students? Where is my role in this?

Beth:               Ironically enough a couple days later, I had an informational interview with the then Director of Community Standards at Stonehill College. I remember leaving that meeting and thinking to myself, "Oh, my goodness, this is what I was put on Earth to do."

Beth:               A couple months later, he actually left to go be the general counsel. I applied for his job, and I got it. I always say there is no way that I should have gotten that job. It was truly a gift from the Universe to not have any Higher Ed experience but then be named the director.

Beth:               I also think that my law degree, and my experience fit well, because as you all know, there is the possibility of being able to get sued and also seeing the bigger picture. I think my law degree, and my experience fit me well.

Beth:               I was in Higher Ed for... in the trenches, for almost over, a little over a decade and then... I was at Stonehill, I did the same thing at Bridgewater State. I was the Director of Community Standards there, so much bigger college, definitely different folks as far as commuters versus residential.

Beth:               A lot more first-gen [PELF] students. Then I was given the opportunity to go to U Mass Boston. A fantastic opportunity as well, very urban campus, lots of first-gen PELF's. The most diverse campus in the East Coast. I really enjoyed my time there.

Beth:               Then I was also provided an opportunity to take all of my past experiences and go apply and work for Dolores so I was so incredibly honored to do that and to this day, I thank, again the Universe every day that I'm able to come work with campuses around the country, learn from them and hopefully they learn from me as well.

Beth:               That was a long answer to your question, but it's a roundabout way of how I got here.

Jill:               I love hearing about how people get to where they are now. I think it's something that we need to talk about more just in general. I feel like those stories help our professionals who are weaving their own paths, to go, "Oh, wait, I don't have to do this linear path, and I can deviate if I want to too."

Beth:               Yes.

Jill:               Can you talk a little bit about what you're doing at D. Stafford now?

Beth:               Sure. I do a couple different things. I can do interim positions. I'm actually at a college a couple days a week filling in as an Associate Dean of Students, which is wonderful. I also will, as the equity person, or the education person, I will go to different campuses to customize templates for them.

Beth:               I'll do reviews of their systems and their policies, provide suggestions as to what could be better. We also provide individualized training for a variety of topics. Sexual violence, Cleary trainings. We're also getting into threat assessment teams and training on those as well.

Beth:               Then we also do the yearly training. So, we have a Title IX coordinator class. We have a Cleary class. There's a bunch of different trainings in which I'm provided, and I help build and present as well.

Jill:               For folks who are campus based now, who think that consulting might be for their futures, what skill sets would you recommend that people be working on now to try to reach that consulting path in the future?

Beth:               I think it's just learn as much as you possibly can. I think the consultants, and this went to my experience. Every place is different. There's really no boiler plate or template policy that's going to fit across the board for everything.

Beth:               The more exposure that you have to different areas, to different schools, to different types of schools, knowing that one size does not fit all, is incredibly helpful. The ability to have an understanding of their campus culture and what it looks like and being able to get that.

Beth:               I think just liking to change and to make suggestions, not being afraid to say, "You know what, let's look at it from this way," that your perspective is important. Finally, I think it's, you have to enjoy talking to people, because they'll tell you their story and that helps you get an understanding of why they've developed the systems that they have, the policies that they have, good and bad.

Beth:               And how you can make it better for them. I always like the question. You're never the kind of smartest person on your own campus. Sometimes you need that other person to come in and say the exact same thing that you have been saying.

Beth:               I always ask the question, "What is it that you need me to say to the other campus partners that would help you get to where you want to be?" Sometimes, asking that question enough, or the same question, folks might be on the exact same page, they just never knew.

Beth:               Sometimes it's providing those connections and saying, "Hey, listen, you might want to partner with so-and-so," or that might be part of our suggestion, or the different offices that can work together to make the policies successful.

Jill:               How has being a consultant versus being a campus based professional reshaped your version of how you internalize and express leadership?

Beth:               I think on a camp... in some ways it's not all the different. I think the mark of any good leader is empowering others to make change. Whether you're in a leadership role, or whether you are consulting on campus, there's still that skill.

Beth:               We might be able to... I think on a campus, the biggest difference is you shepherd things forward. You're there for the long term. You can see the investment. Whereas in the consulting world, you're not there for the long term, so you really need to empower the folks who you are leaving your suggestions to, to go forward and make the change that needs to be made.

Jill:               I would imagine now with your civil rights and Title IX consulting role, you're seeing a lot of different versions of information coming out with the new guidance. Just for our listeners, today we are recording on December 18th, so I know you're not hearing this for a couple weeks later.

Jill:               We're still within the 60 day comment window right now. Beth I'd love to get your thoughts on the proposed guidance and how folks might find themselves commenting in constructive ways.

Beth:               Yeah. I think it's learning and really diving into what the regulations say. I remember, don't always listen, as great as the podcasts have been through NASPA, through ASCA, through a bunch of different, our own D. Stafford. We just did one, which I think was amazing.

Beth:               There's always the opportunity of, don't rely on other people, read it yourself. They're long, and it takes you a long time to go through it, but going through it, not just once, every single time that I read the proposed regs I see something new. I've probably gone through it maybe six or seven times at this point.

Beth:               Then looking at the other folks and what they're saying. You don't have to agree with them. People can have differing opinions as to what it's going to actually mean and how do you go from there? So, I think the biggest part would be, try to form your own opinions, then check it with other folks and see if you are on the same page.

Beth:               What would be... for you, what is more impactful? For not only your University, but for your students as well. Are there just non-negotiables? Which ones... There are suggestions in the regs that I do think are helpful.

Beth:               What are those? Is there compromise? Is there... What is the floor and the ceiling? Are there times or places in which we can compromise? I don't think the regs are going to change much. When we saw VAWA come out a few years ago, the language in a change and Shawn Lowery said this not too long ago, "This language hasn't changed, what changed is the interpretation."

Beth:               I think focusing your comments on the need for clarification, because there's definitely sections that need to be clarified, as well as, where are we looking that there might be parts of compromise, and where would it be helpful for that interpretation to be named.

Beth:               I think that negotiated rule making would be fantastic, but I don't think that that's going to happen. So, this is really the opportunity for you and your college to get your voices heard as to what will be specific and if there's things that you support that's great. Put those in there too.

Beth:               Don't just have it as, "This won't work, This won't work, this won't work." I think that there's very good things about being a deviant as far... and always seeing maybe another side. Then, offering a proposal.

Beth:               We understand that the regulation said this. This would be very difficult to achieve on a small campus, if you're on a small campus, therefore another suggestion would be this. So, providing an alternative, not just, "This won't work." I think that would be helpful.

Jill:               I like that framing a lot. It's a solution-focused type of comment.

Beth:               Yeah.

Jill:               When you look at it yourself, what do you see that you're like, "Wow, that's a great idea, I'm glad we're going to be able to do that," and what do you see as, "Oh, this might have the potential to fundamentally shift our practice"?

Beth:               Whether or not folks will sigh or agree with me, I think in some regards the ability to offer informal resolutions, depending on what that looks like, could be seen as a positive. How do we frame that? How do we make it work in a way that is both focused on complainants and respondents?

Beth:               I think that in some regards perhaps the prior administration went too far one way. Is this an opportunity to swing the pendulum back a different way and is there a way to stop it in the middle before it goes too far back?

Beth:               I think there are significant concerns about the change from denies or limits, to just denies. I think that... so, the whole definition of sexual harassment, I think is, certainly going to cause some concern and rightfully so.

Beth:               Prior to, there was the two-step. You have a student who comes in and you're investigating to see if there is a hostile environment. I read it as, now we don't investigate until we actually have evidence of a hostile environment.

Beth:               That's a pretty big [inaudible] change. To that, I also wonder does it limit us from following up and saying, "Hey, student, when you say things like this, or when you do things like this, you have the potential to create that hostile environment." Again, that's somewhat of that floor-ceiling, as far as, "Well we can still respond, maybe it's just not a formal complaint that limits us from doing anything."

Beth:               Some of the other questions of concerns that I might have, are just, I think the cross examination could really prove to be troubling. I think for... when you're looking, if you have an advisor questioning, what if the student is actually the advisor? And you all went into it on your podcast. So, there's some concerns there.

Beth:               I think that the administrative burden that is going to be placed on colleges could also be incredibly difficult, especially for a small campus to be able to have. If you have a separate Title IX coordinator, and then you have a separate investigator, and then you have a separate decisions maker, and then you have a separate appeals person.

Beth:               That could prove definitely, logistically, difficult to manage as well.

Jill:               I also think about the educational culture shift that will need to happen on campuses, because we've been working towards a specific definition and framing of how Title IX will be operationalized on our campuses since 2014.

Jill:               Whole generation of students see it a particular way. What ideas have you all been thinking about in terms of, how do we reframe that educational component?

Beth:               Yeah. Well that's exactly it. So, now students and rightfully so, have been trained from the beginning, from high school and from K through 12 about what their expectations are. To be honest with you, I don't think that there has been enough emphasis put on the retraining of what that means.

Beth:               In some regards, do intuitions who feel... the comments were clear over a year ago. The vast majority of those were positive in regards to the Obama guidance. I think that there's some work to be done.

Beth:               Again we don't know what the final regulations are going to be, what they're going to say, what is the floor, what is the ceiling? I think in some regard, it's hard to start thinking about education around that when we don't exactly know where the regulations are going to end.

Jill:               Well, why don't we move away from the regs, because I know that they've been exhausted in many, many forums. I'd love to talk to you about your crafting and research for the ASCA Law and Policy report. We had a law and policy report in one format for many, many years. It was retired and now has come back with a brand new life force to it.

Jill:               One of my favorite parts is the funny things that you put at end as well. I'm just curious if you can tell us how you starting compiling this, where you learned to look for these things and how you choose what goes into it?

Beth:               Yeah, so, honestly, a lot comes from Google alerts. I just read every day. I did something similar for ASCA, just putting the weekly updates with articles together, maybe about five, six years ago. I used to do it for NASPA too, when I was their public policy person.

Beth:               It was just one of those things that always sat in the back of my mind, that if I had time I wanted to do it again. I think it helps keep me honest, as far as what I need to be reading and how I can keep updating on how quickly things can shift.

Beth:               Reading The Chronicle every day, reading [Inside Higher Ed 00:20:28], these are the things that we tell our students, or we will our supervisees that they should be doing, but are we modeling that behavior, and we know at the end of the day, no, not all the time, because life gets busy.

Beth:               It was when I left U Mass it was the ability to take a step back and say, "You know what, this is what I really enjoy, how I can keep up to date and do I just resurrect it?" Putting it all together, through just daily readings, putting Google alerts out for different types of topics that I think a relevant and timely.

Beth:               Just my overall reading. I read a couple different news papers every single day. Admittedly I get things off of Facebook that other people have posted. If people send things to me, I put those on as well. I have to admit that I have taken a break from Twitter for a bit.

Beth:               It's just trying to see what else is out there and talking to other folks. You can't learn if you're only looking at certain perspectives. I try to make sure that I keep it as neutral as possible. There are sources from all different spectrums.

Beth:               I try not to put on or have articles that might not be on that chart of impartiality. I will filter some of those out, but sometimes I don't because I think it's just... it's also informative to know what people who don't think like you are thinking and how to challenge.

Beth:               It's never an endorsement of any opinion that I put out there. I want people to understand that there's many different narratives that are there. The for fun part, sometimes I ask my son what his favorite YouTube video was of the week, or sometimes it's just my favorite things that I've seen on Facebook that week.

Beth:               Unless it's somebody who I've really respected or has made an impact who has passed away, then usually I just focus on them for that time. That's pretty much it.

Jill:               I'm also curious to hear your thoughts on what areas of law and policy do you think that student conduct administrators should be paying attention to that might be getting silenced or drowned out by all of this attention on Title IX.

Beth:               I think First Amendment. I think that so much hooks back to that. If you notice, that's one of the areas that I really try to post. If we're not seeing those two things together... the regs had a whole section on the first amendment and constitutional protections.

Beth:               That, to me, is incredibly important to focus on and not just free speech, but all of the parts of the first amendment, when it comes to assembly, the press, religion, airing of the grievances. I think it's important to be mindful. I think especially when it comes down to the students who are coming onto our campus and what their thoughts are in regards to the first amendment, or anything.

Beth:               I think it's helpful to have an understanding on alcohol and drug changes and making sure that we're keeping our eye on the ball on that as well, especially as marijuana changes are happening overnight.

Beth:               The opioid addiction I think, will have major ramifications. How Higher Ed is changing in other countries, not just here in the U.S. Are there things that we can learn? Keeping pace of the changes in the budget, looking at National Politics and seeing how that impacts.

Beth:               Looking at the changes in the economy, if people can't afford to go to college, what's going to happen. The closures that are happening on college campuses. I think all of these things together have real life impacts on the people who are doing conduct, or any student affairs job day in and day out.

Jill:               I love what you said about paying attention to policy outside of the United States. That's been something that's been a passion area for me for a long time as well. Is there anything that you're aware of happening outside of the U.S. borders that you think has an impact or a trickle effect or that maybe some of our other abroad colleagues might be struggling with?

Beth:               I think they struggle with the same stuff we do. In some ways it's interesting to see that it's not here in the U.S. I think one of the issues in which we'll impact multiple places, is Visas. If there was a charge of, well are we going to look at Chinese Visas and the impact and allowing people into the United States.

Beth:               Well, that's going to have an effect on all of us. I think that just being mindful and seeing what else happens outside and not being so... taking a more global approach, I think is helpful. Seeing how the other parts of the world view the United States is helpful for us, and it's also helpful for our students.

Beth:               Especially when we're working with those who go abroad, because I think that that can help us when... prepare them well for a positive experience if they're going to the UK or Australia or wherever.

Jill:               That is definitely changing how the American culture and society are being viewed. I'll be very curious to see what happens as we shift in the next probably three to six years as well.

Beth:               Sure.

Jill:               Beth, one of the things you said in your intro that really stuck with me, was this idea that you've spent a large portion of your career navigating negotiations between people with very desperate or even competing viewpoints.

Jill:               I'm wondering if you can talk about how you built that skill set and what tips and tricks you can offer to the listeners on how to do that on their campuses or... holidays are coming up for many folks, in their personal lives as well.

Beth:               You should just... You just put Adele on, much like Saturday Night Live, and the rest just happens.

Jill:               One of my favorite sketches. I love it.

Beth:               Somebody can get a fan and make you look like you've been stuck in a windstorm. I like to come from the place that nobody is evil. Everybody has their own story and everybody has the reason that they believe in which they want to believe.

Beth:               I know that that is easier said than done, and I'm sure that there are people who are listening to this, saying, "I've worked with Beth and she doesn't feel this way." That's not true. Yeah, sometimes you're going to have knock-down drag-outs.

Beth:               If you have people who feel passionately about different perspectives, how do you work towards that? How can you come back the next day and say, "Hey, listen, my bad"? I get it, so let's figure this thing out because we need to do what's best for the students.

Beth:               I think in some regards, it's just understanding different perspectives. I think that that's why it's important not just to surround yourself with people and articles and TV shows that only reinforce your narrative, so you can have an understanding.

Beth:               Just saying, "Okay, help me understand why it is you feel this way? Could we look at it from this perspective instead?" I think, honestly, it's working where I hone that skill or where I started with it, because I'm not perfect, by any means.

Beth:               I would say at the State House, one of my offices right next door was the Governor's office, and I worked for a Democrat. The person who worked, or lived next door, were all the policy-wonks for the Republican Governor.

Beth:               We would have interactions. We got to know one another personally. Our disagreements might have been political, but they were never personal. I think that's... sometime we forget that, because if we care so passionately about our work, it does become personal.

Beth:               Trying to remember that it shouldn't be, might be my advice.

Jill:               I like that. I would imagine you translated that skill set to student conduct work as well.

Beth:               Yeah. It's the same thing with your students. They come into your office, they have their own stories, they have their own perspectives. If you're working with a student who is trying to... 10 years ago, trying to legalize cannabis on your campus, and you philosophically just disagree with that, but, "Well help me understand, how did you get here?"

Beth:               We have to agree to disagree, but how can we learn from one another. I think to go back to one of your earlier questions, what is important for us, I think as conduct folks, or as student affairs folks, engaging in civil discourse and what that looks like and modeling that for others.

Beth:               We are, I would say, increasingly, although I would hope it's going to reverse at some point, tribalistic. How can we sit with somebody, not avoid them, sit with someone and have those conversations? And learn from one another?

Beth:               I was working with somebody not too long ago who had stated, "Well, when I see a student, or the mindset on our campus is if there's a student from X organization we're just going to ignore them." Well why? You're actually going to reinforce maybe some of those feelings that that student might have just because they might not share the same viewpoint as you.

Beth:               Go try to engage with them. If you have somebody who doesn't believe in white privilege, talk to them. Understand why they don't. See if you can challenge their views. I think it was... One of my favorite podcasts is The Daily and a few...

Beth:               I think it was a year or two ago, they had the name escapes me right now, but they had this student who... he's now older, who was born and raised in the white supremacy movement, and now speaks out against it and how he got there and his journey, was because somebody challenged him in a way that didn't make him defensive and was able to, quote "meet him where he was at" and help shepherd him to a place where he is now.

Beth:               How can we do that to our own students or to our own people who are on campus? And understanding that not everybody thinks like us and that includes our campus partners as well.

Jill:               So, shout out to the New York Times podcast The Daily it's also on my listening list. You have to check it out. They do some really great in depth reporting. Really taking what would ordinarily be just one headline and really flushing it out into a really fantastic narrative.

Beth:               Yeah. It's almost required daily listening for me. I really enjoy it.

Jill:               Beth, I want to visit something you mentioned earlier about privilege. I was hoping you could talk a little bit about how you have seen your own identities play out in your work and how you navigate areas where you have more privilege versus areas where you might be more marginalized?

Beth:               Sure. I identify as a gay or a lesbian, white female. I recognize that I have lots of privilege, but it's interesting. I'm a first-gen PELF kid. My dad died when I was 15. He dropped dead of a heart attack. My mom raised my sister, and I.

Beth:               There are times in which I didn't have the privilege that folks thought I did when it came down to class, or to financial independence and looking at the sacrifices that my mother made. There's the understanding that there's lots of different privileges and challenging those perceptions as well.

Beth:               I think it's... when I was in college I had no idea. No one had talked to me about white privilege. It was not until I think I started working in Higher Ed. I can tell you that when you're in law school, you don't learn these things.

Beth:               We don't always in Higher Ed have those same conversations with the people... You're going to spend the holidays with friends and family. Are you having conversations of white privilege? Are you pushing... or privilege in general?

Beth:               When you hear certain things, how do you push back? Because I think each and every day, you will hear things. They provide opportunities for you to educate, and I think that there needs some forgiveness if you don't take each and every one of those battles head on.

Beth:               There's only so many hours, so much that one person can do. There's definitely times that I have received at a bar, or my wife and I might be out for dinner, and people ask us all the time if we're sisters. If you've ever seen us, we look nothing alike.

Beth:               We could get mad, but we choose not to. I think sometimes that's a choice. You can never choose what somebody's going to say to you. You can just only choose how you're going to react to it. I also understand that that's a place of privilege that I have, that I am able to control how I respond.

Beth:               But it's... Do I take those opportunities to educate. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. Same thing with my family. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I think it's being able to recognize when I have privilege and when I don't. When I don't have, those times trying to... and this sounds, and I don't mean it to be in a condescending way.

Beth:               I want to learn about those people's experiences. If you're not able to check your privilege and have an understanding of that, I don't think you can learn from other folks and what their experiences were in a way that can have meaningful education on you, if that answers your question.

Jill:               That, check your privilege phrase, I think it's something that we've seen permeate pop culture recently, right? It's the "check your privilege" meme. What does that actually mean for you when you choose to do that?

Beth:               I think I just... I recognize it. I think I'm at a place of awareness that I can when I am in certain situations. I know who I am as a person and if I am in other places, "Okay, well, how might this person be feeling? Why might they be doing or saying X, Y and Z. How can I understand?"

Beth:               Especially when you're working with students. You have so much power and privilege over those students, regardless of any identity and what you're checking. How do you create a space in which a student or whomever can feel comfortable talking with you?

Jill:               And, kind of transitioning a little bit, I also wanted to mention that you serve on the NASPA Public Policy Division or have historically. Given your national expertise on policy from your experience in the State House in Massachusetts all the way through the ASCA LPR and the NASPA what we call PPD, that's just a lot of letters.

Jill:               How do you synthesize all those experiences and reframe your conversations in a way that are helpful for the spaces that you're in? I ask that because I think that's the kind of conduct officer question that we see on our campuses every day.

Beth:               How do I use my experiences? I think you just have to know your audience. It's hard because I think when folks are so excited to share, there might be the perception that it comes off as being condescending, or a know-it-all that's never anybody's intention, or at least hope not.

Beth:               How do you share the information that you have in a way that you can break it down to others. My hope would be through law school, through experiences, I have the ability to read things and break it down in a way in which I think is important and try to the different audiences in which I'm presenting, to provide a narrative that would be helpful or instruction that might be helpful for that particular group.

Jill:               I really like to ask people about their thought processes because a lot of our listeners are newer in their careers, or in that mid-level space. I think a lot of how maybe more tenured folks in the profession think about things can be helpful to others to learn how to frame their own conversations. So that's...

Beth:               Yeah I think there's definitely... If somebody had to use this experience or use this today or had shared this today, and I'll share it with you all. They were working with a group of seniors who their main, and how they talk to one another is through Facebook.

Beth:               Then they were talking to a group of first year students who they're like, "What? We haven't used Facebook in God knows how long." That's only four years. That's a specific population. I think it's having an understanding of, there's definitely going to differences.

Beth:               The folks who are in senior leadership positions right now started in the field and in the trenches at a very different time and have been through it all. I think that there's some concern about having a better understanding of what these folks have done and how we can learn from one another.

Beth:               That, it was the norm, that you would come in, and you served your sentence, or not sentence, but you started as an RD and then you moved here, and then you moved here, and then you moved here and then you're a vice president.

Beth:               The shifts... the field has shifted so much in the past 10 years that those more seasoned folks have seen it all, and also recall a time where it wasn't as litigious or focused on compliance as it is now. Sometimes I think that that might cause a disconnect.

Beth:               It's nothing that folks in senior leadership positions don't respect and we definitely want to learn from one another, but I think just generationally there might be some differences too that's helpful when we can sit down and talk and learn from one another.

Jill:               There's an article that I read in The Chronicle recently by Sarah Goldrick-Raband Jesse Stommal or Stommel, the title was, "Teaching the Students We Have, Not the Students We Wish We Had." It was just a real short read that I think was a good reminder on who are we now, where do we wish we were, but how do we build the bridge from where we are to where we wish we were.

Jill:               I really appreciate you framing the people have seen things differently over time, because it is a different landscape today than it was even in 2012.

Beth:               Yeah. It's completely different. I think that the lessons in which people have are an incredibly important lesson. I remember a few years ago Don Gehring was... I would go and listen to that man talk about paint drying. I think that his experiences are something in which we all need to remember and respect.

Beth:               I think that in some regards we might get caught up in different things that are happening in our campus but truly having a nod, and an appreciation for how this field started and the roots and the foundation is just so incredibly important as well.

Beth:               How do we then bring that into the students who we have today? The employees who we have today and having... just a grounding in that appreciation.

Jill:               As we reach towards the end of our time today, what distilled advice would you give to new and upcoming professionals?

Beth:               Same as I always do. Learn. Take the time to read, to stay current, to learn from others, to network, to... I think it's Barbara Fienman who always says, "Who are your top five? Do you have five, do you have thirty? Who would you go to?"

Beth:               I think our field is one, especially in student conduct, that I'm always amazed that whenever I picked up the phone and I would call or email the Lee Bird's or the Mary-Beth Mackin's or whomever, they always called you back.

Beth:               I think that that is something unique in our field. These are pillars of the community, who always get you back. I mean, Cathy Cox as well. She mentors and guides folks, and I think that that's an appreciation we have in conduct.

Beth:               I think, and I always say, conduct professionals are the ability to have a conversation with a student who isn't always making the best decisions, is going to be more life changing in some regards than the student who's an RA, you know?

Beth:               You have the greatest impact, because chances are no one is willing, or no one has had that conversation with that student before. The amount of impact that you can have can just be so incredibly great. The responsibility that comes along with it.

Beth:               How are you meeting that student? How are you shepherding that student? How are you creating a space in which you can have this genuine, authentic, I know that word is overused, conversation that can really help them transform their lives.

Beth:               Think about the people... my experience it was a professor who once said to me, "It'd be really nice to see you in class on Fridays again." I didn't need to be documented. I didn't need to be in trouble. I didn't need anything else. I just needed somebody to tell me that my choices weren't serving me well.

Beth:               I think as conduct folks, we have the opportunity to do that each and every day. I think it's somewhat of a blessing.

Jill:               Thank you so much for sharing all of your thoughts with us today Beth. We always like to end our show with asking our guests what you might be reading right now.

Beth:               Sure. Currently right now, is Intersections of Identity and Sexual Violence on Campus.

Jill:               Light bedtime reading, got it.

Beth:               For real, I am, which is amazing and very helpful. I'm using it to help craft a presentation that I'm doing, but I will say, and I have to give a shout out to a book that I finished a couple months ago, called The Nightingale.

Beth:               I cannot recommend this book enough as folks are starting to maybe wind down. Please, please, please, please pick that one up as well.

Jill:               Who are the authors on both those?

Beth:               The authors on the Intersections are Jessica Harris and Chris Linder. The Nightingale, to be honest with you, I don't know. I can look it up for you right now.

Jill:               It's a fiction novel?

Beth:               It is, and its set in the war and Nazi's and... so World War II and you have these two sisters kind of navigating France. One takes one path of resistance and the other sister takes another path of resistance, but it's... If you liked the Red Tent, you will love The Nightingale.

Beth:               That one is by Kristen Hannah. I think I read it in two days. It's fantastic.

Jill:               And Beth, if folks would like to reach you after the podcast airs, how can they find you?

Beth:               Sure, I think it's actually on the internet when it gets sent... or not the internet. It's on the... everything's on the internet.

Jill:               On the whole internet.

Beth:               It's on the weekly update that I send out, my email is on there as well. So, feel free it's bdevonshire76@gmail.com.

Jill:               Excellent and as always if you'd like to reach the podcast, you can tweet us at ASCAPodcast, that's A-S-C-A-P-O-D-C-A-S-T or email us at ASCApodcast@gmail.com. Thank you so much Beth for sharing your viewpoint with us today.

Beth:               Yeah, happy to. Anytime.

Jill:               This episode was produced and hosted by Jill Creighton, that's me. Produced, edited and mixed by Colleen Mater. Special thanks to New York University's Office of Student Conduct and Community Standards and to the University of Oregon's Dead of Students Team for allowing us the time and space to create this project.

Jill:               If you're enjoying the podcast, we ask that you please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps others discover us, and helps us become more visible in the general podcasting community.

Jill:               If you have suggestions for future guests or would like to be featured on the podcast yourself, please feel free to reach out to us on Twitter at ASCAPodcast, or by email at ASCApodcast@gmail.com.