Alexandra E. Hughes: Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the ASCA Viewpoints Podcast. As always, I am your host, Dr. Alexandra E. Hughes. And this is the podcast that we talk all things student conduct. It's summer, it's hot, and in the south Texas, oh my goodness. I don't know if it's hot where you are, but I need a reprieve from the hotness. But we're just halfway through the summer, so I have a long way to go before we get into cooler temperatures. I hope this podcast finds you well wherever you are, on the interwebs, day, night, driving somewhere, not driving somewhere, wherever this may find you. Tip for today's episode, we have a very special guest. And I'm actually really excited about this episode, because I mean, our guest was just sharing so much amazing information on student conduct and really just talking about the sacred work that we do as student conduct officers. Alexandra E. Hughes: And I mean, it was just amazing to hear. So without further ado, let me introduce our guest. So our guest is going to be Sarah McDowell Shupp, and she is the director of the office of student conduct at Shippensburg University. As a one-person office, Sarah oversees the entire process for general misconduct, academic integrity, and organizational misconduct. She also serves on the university care team and assist students in crisis. In addition to her role at Shippensburg University, Sarah is a third year doctoral student at Indiana University of Pennsylvania, studying administration and leadership in education. Her research interests include exploring college students' experiences with student conduct programs through narrative inquiry and examining policies, procedures, and environments through a critical lens. Sarah also volunteers with national fraternity and sorority organizations as a speaker and facilitator on leadership, risk management, and equity and inclusion issues. Alexandra E. Hughes: When she's not working or writing, you can usually find her sampling beer at a local brewery, traveling with family and friends, relaxing with her pug, Koda and cat, Phoenix. I hope that everyone enjoys this episode and I look forward to seeing everyone on the interweb soon. Hello, Sarah, and welcome to the ASCA Viewpoints Podcast show. How are you? Sarah McDowell Shupp: Hello. I'm so good. Thank you so much for having me today. Alexandra E. Hughes: Thank you for just being here and putting up with my craziness and me just saying, "Oh my goodness, we have to have you," and just everything. I appreciate that. I just appreciate you so much. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Well, thank you. I appreciate being here and I'm going to quote what our students say. I think we just have a vibe, so I feel like we're vibing and we can just do that. Alexandra E. Hughes: [crosstalk 00:03:25]? Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yes. Alexandra E. Hughes: That's what the... I think they said you know the vibe now. Oh goodness, we're getting so [crosstalk 00:03:35]. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Oh, yeah. Alexandra E. Hughes: It's scary because I really thought that I would always stay in a place to where I would know. I would always be able to understand and know what the young people are talking about. And then I'm getting letters, and numbers, and emojis, and this, and I feel like my mother and I don't know how I feel about that. Sarah McDowell Shupp: I had a student tell me last fall, she said, "Hey, do you have any kids?" And I said, "No, I don't." She says, "Oh, because I'm getting a lot of mom vibes from you." And I was like, "Oh, here it comes. It's happening. I've now started either saying or having mannerisms like a mom." And yeah, I often find that when I have to put in footnotes into an investigative report, that translate what a student says, like, "Oh, so-and-so said they're going to do this on site." And I have to translate for my board members. I'm like, "That means that they're going to fight that person the next time they see them." So I'm constantly having to look up terms, look up phrases, because students say things and my accomplished veteran board members are not that connected with youth culture. So yeah. Alexandra E. Hughes: And honestly, we're starting to become... I think we stay guessing more than your average person, older adult, because we work at university. So it forces us to be aware, but then it's still starting to hit us, and I'm like, "Oh my goodness. I don't know how I feel about this." But anyways that's a whole another tangent that I will not go often because we do that. So for our audience, if you will, will you please just introduce yourself, who you are, how you got into student conduct, and whatever you're comfortable sharing on a recorded podcast? So just so everyone- Sarah McDowell Shupp: Sure. Alexandra E. Hughes: So they know all about you. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yeah. Awesome. So currently I'm the director of the office of student conduct at Shippensburg University. And I have been at Ship for eight years as a professional, and I've been lucky enough to work in three very different offices. And previous to Ship, I had worked at Towson University and Stevenson University in the Baltimore area, which is where originally from. But I had gone to graduate school at Shippensburg, and so when an opportunity came up, about eight years ago, to come back, I took it and I actually ran our drug and alcohol education and prevention program for a couple of years. And then I moved over into the career center for a couple of years. And then I was actually asked to take over conduct in March of 2018. And it was presented in such a way where I was excited to take on something totally different, but also knew that I had very little experience with conduct. Sarah McDowell Shupp: I had served at that previously judicial boards, and in the drug and alcohol program, I had worked with conduct to get those referrals to the program I was running. So I was asked to take over student conduct, and I did a mid semester transition and cobbled together a couple months of figuring out what the heck I was supposed to be doing. And then actually attended the Gehring Academy that summer, figured out exactly what I was supposed to be doing as professional. And then since then, I think I would probably... I feel like I say to a lot of folks that this is the most fun job I've ever had. This is the coolest thing I've ever done in student affairs. And I really have found a love and a passion for student conduct, and wildly enough, it is not something I would have ever considered when I was in graduate school, or even when I was looking for jobs. I was like, "Oh my God, no, I wouldn't want to do student conduct." Sarah McDowell Shupp: But after being in it... And part of my role, I get to work with our care team and our behavior intervention team, so I get some other experiences with students in crisis. And there are just certain parts of this job that I absolutely love. And I found that once I started my graduate school, my doc work in the fall of '18, that's when it really started to connect for me. When I started looking at the literature and the history of the field, and getting more involved in ACSA, and really looking at the history of our field, the important work that we do, and then how do I connect that to the current practice that I'm leading at Shippensburg University. Sarah McDowell Shupp: And so, I really just fell in love with the work. And yeah, it is the most fun. No job is... It's interesting because we constantly work... What does the code say? What does our process say? So there's this process and there's this outline. But every situation is so different, and so nuanced, and so complicated. And I think I love the problem solving piece of that, the service to the student piece of that, and then also looking at where we see some gaps in policy or procedure that we have to shore up and try to be as inclusive and fair as possible. So I just really love the work that I do. And I have been a student affairs professional for about 14 years, and conduct is absolutely the place I'd like to be. Alexandra E. Hughes: Conduct is everything. I mean, obviously I'm clearly biased [crosstalk 00:08:38]. But let me ask this question, when you were sold the dream of conduct, was the dream you were sold the reality that you got? Sarah McDowell Shupp: I'm trying to remember. I think the conversation was just like, "Hey, we would really like you to run student conduct. Would you like to do that?" And I was like, "Yeah, sure. Can I think about it?" And they were like, "Yeah, you can have two days to think about it and then come back and let us know." So- Alexandra E. Hughes: They were trying to say, "Oh, we have to get you to say yes. [crosstalk 00:09:09]." Sarah McDowell Shupp: Right. Yep. So I immediately called. So literally that day I walked out of that meeting. This is such a weird thing, but I remember I was pinching the inside of my hangling, "Don't drop your jaw right now." Because I was like, "This is such an unexpected and odd thing to happen." And I was like, "Okay, don't freak out, just listen to what they have to say, and then we're going to figure it out." So I remember I called two mentors of mine who are both folks that work in dean of students roles or Title IX roles, and I said, "Hey, this is what I'm being offered. What questions do I need to ask? What do I need to do?" And both of them were like, "You need to go to Gehring, you need to join ASCA, possibly a TEQSA, you need to look at these other professional organizations." Sarah McDowell Shupp: And they were like, "You're going to love it. You should say yes, and you're going to love it." But there wasn't... I think when I first got into it, what I expected to do was to deal with defensive and angry students and parents. And that's what I thought the job was going to be, was constantly dealing with angry students or angry people. And then once I got into the work, it was so different. And it was one of these things where I realized that the position in conduct and anyone that works in conduct, we have a lot of power. And even though in my daily life, and in my university, and in other areas, I don't always feel like I have power. Don't always feel like I have any authority, but I do in my role. Sarah McDowell Shupp: And I think that's a lot of what I've learned over the last couple of years, is how do I use that power appropriately, and how do I protect students. Because I view student conduct work first and foremost as a protection of student's rights. So yes, we hold students accountable. Yes, we want them to have moral and ethical development. Yes, we want them to learn and we want them to make better decisions. And we want to have process and procedure that is defendable if necessary by outside folks. But I think first and foremost, our role is really as protectors of students, protectors of the process, and protectors of rights. I never imagined that as part of working in conduct. I thought conduct was going to be talking with students, trying to help them make better decisions, dealing with angry and defensive students and their families and other folks. Sarah McDowell Shupp: But it really has become and evolved into a different role. And I will say that that role is sometimes in conflict with other colleagues of the university, with other folks outside the university. I've often felt like sometimes I'm the sole voice protesting a certain action, or something's going to happen because I know that ethically, legally, morally, it's going to violate students' rights, or it may violate students' rights, or it may have the perception of violating their rights. So sometimes I feel like I'm not so voiced that saying, "No, we can't do it this way because of X, Y, or Z." And I really see that as my role. Sarah McDowell Shupp: So I think it's funny, because if you ask students what we do in student conduct, I'm sure they would give you a lot of varied answers. But one of the things that I think they probably don't always know is that that's what all of us do. We're all protecting the process. We are all protecting their rights. We are all making sure that no matter how we feel about a situation or feel about someone's actions, that their rights are protected, and that we're making the process as equitable and as fair as we can for them. And I didn't expect that when I started this work. I didn't even think about that part of the job really. Alexandra E. Hughes: So I want to touch on that. I love the way you phrased it. You said protector of rights and how we really didn't... Let me rephrase that. Before getting into this line of work, you don't necessarily realize that. And I think perception, right? So the perception of I think other departments at the institution... And it always catches, I mean, faculty members especially, but just people off guard because we give these reports to our office, and I think people automatically expect that we're going to say, "Oh, we're kicking you out. We're expelling you or suspending you. You're in trouble. A hundred community service hours." Whatever it is, but I'd say more... I don't know what the percentage is. 60% of the time, it's actually the opposite of that. Alexandra E. Hughes: And turning around and saying, "Well, actually, in this particular case, professor XY, you violated student ABC's rights in this classroom. And you told them, and they had to go. And you said you weren't going to do this and whatever, whatever, and kick them out." And I don't necessarily know if that's really as widely discussed as it should be, right? And I really think about the work that we do is advocacy. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Oh gosh. Yeah. Alexandra E. Hughes: And I think that's a better... I'm really an advocate. Which is so interesting because a lot of times in student rights, we're the ones, I don't want to say at odds with advocates. You get what I'm saying? But a lot of times we're at odds with advocates because they think that we are on one side and we're like, "No, we are really talking about the process and we're trying to be as fair and equitable as we can." Sarah McDowell Shupp: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And we're on all sides. Alexandra E. Hughes: Yeah. Sarah McDowell Shupp: I'm not on the student side or the university side. I think one of those key things is, objectivity is not real. And I mean, my perspective, you can't really be objective. In student comic matters, you can't really be objective. And I don't think that being objective is the goal. The goal should be, and I'm going to mispronounce this word, I think it's multi-partiality. Alexandra E. Hughes: Okay. Sarah McDowell Shupp: I think that's how you say it. But the goal is basically to be able to see every part of the conflict. To be able to see, and understand, and have empathy and compassion offered on all sides. But I think you're exactly right. I think that is the expectation. And some of what I find that I have to do is manage expectations. When things come up to my office and I look at these referrals and I'm like, "This really isn't a conduct violation, and it shouldn't be handled through the conduct process. But let me try to help you mediate this, or let's see what else we could do here." And yeah, you're right, sometimes I have the conversation with faculty when I say, "Hey, so your syllabus is really not fair. And we need to talk about some of these things that you're including here. And some of the quote, punishments that you're including in your syllabus are actually violating student rights and maybe state laws. So maybe we need to rework this." Sarah McDowell Shupp: But again, I think the expectation is, well, this student did this to me or did that to me. So you've got to have discipline. And I feel like sometimes, I don't always say this to my colleagues, but sometimes I want to say, "They're allowed to argue with you. Students are allowed to challenge you. They're allowed to argue with you. They're allowed to tell you things you don't want to hear. They're allowed to make statements. They're allowed to do these things. And just because you don't like it, doesn't make it a conduct violation and doesn't make it a discipline issue." And I think we're still struggling with some of the in loco parentis issues where sometimes colleagues or other folks want you to come in and be the parent that has a... I actually had a conversation with a colleague recently that said, "Well, we just want you to give the student a talking-to." And I was like, "I'm not going to do that." Alexandra E. Hughes: [crosstalk 00:17:02]. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Right. "And if you have a conflict with the student, then I need you to actively engage in the process with me, and the student can engage, and we can teach the student how to mediate conflict, because that is also our role as educators and staff members and faculty is to teach students these skills, which include being able to mediate conflict and being able to resolve differences and to be civil in the workplace, in the classroom with each other." So, no, we don't have a talking-to as part of our outcomes. Though sometimes I think folks want us to do that. Alexandra E. Hughes: Oh yeah. All the time. They want to just refer it over and us to handle that when in fact that's not it. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yep. Alexandra E. Hughes: But we see that in a lot of different instances. Okay. So you're going to be a doctor because you're in doc school, right? Sarah McDowell Shupp: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Alexandra E. Hughes: And that's just, I'm just going to say my apologies right now and my condolences, because that's [inaudible 00:17:57]. But I am here for you. So part of our conversation, which we're really getting into now, is the fact that when you got into this line of work and you were asked to do this, and you started looking at these things and getting all the cases, and really just diving into student conduct, you realized that there were some things, or you noticed that there were some things in the field of student conduct that started interesting you to really dive deeper into your particular dissertation topic. And even, and I'll have to share with our audience, you're actually going to be working with Gehring academy this summer as well. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yes. Alexandra E. Hughes: So the people are going to want more of you. I already know this. They get to get more of you this summer. So I just combined two things there, right? But could you care a little bit about your dissertation, which is really about student conduct, the history of it, and I just think that's so valuable for people to understand, and where you went, why you went there? Sarah McDowell Shupp: Sure. Alexandra E. Hughes: All of that. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yeah. So when I started in conduct, I started noticing, anecdotally, the students being referred to the office, the language being used to describe those students, and what identities did those students hold. And I started seeing some patterns. So I work at a predominantly White institution, that is about, I think, 72% White and then a variety of some other identities. Our largest after White is Black or African-American students, which I think sits at about 13% or 14%. And so then there's some other percentages of some other ethnicities and races. But what I'm noticing is, if our campus is 72% White then 72% of my referrals in theory should be White students, and they were not. And I was noticing that I was seeing a disparate rate of students that identify as students of color, mainly students that identify as Black or African-American being referred. Sarah McDowell Shupp: And what I was noticing too was that sometimes the language and the referral was different. I was noticing that students of color were more likely to be described as threatening or aggressive, for exhibiting behaviors that me as a conduct officer would not categorize as threatening or aggressive. And so it started this thought in the back of my brain when we think about systems of oppression and we think about racism at an institutional level and at a broader level. What does that look like? And we look at standards of behavior. We could have a whole other podcast on White supremacy and student conduct work, but knowing that what we do and the systems that we uphold through our codes of conduct can be racist and sexist and all of those other things. Sarah McDowell Shupp: So I'm noticing more students of color being referred and I'm noticing just a different categorization of the behaviors of those students while the behaviors are similar to what White students are also being referred to. I was just noticing some difference there. And then when I started my doc work, I had a wonderful professor. I'm going to give her a shout out. Her name's Dr. Crystal Machado. She's at Indiana University of Pennsylvania. Alexandra E. Hughes: Okay. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yeah. And she had us write for one of our papers in her class what was our motivating dissatisfaction. What is something in our current work, or our thought, or in the field that we work in, that we are dissatisfied with, and what do we want to know about that? And so, she calls it this motivating dissatisfaction. And I said, "I'm interested in race, in student conduct work, and I'm interested to know if some of the patterns that we see in K through 12 discipline and in the US criminal justice system... I'm interested to see if those patterns exist in student conduct work." Sarah McDowell Shupp: And what I found was we don't really know if those patterns exist, or at least there's not any peer reviewed published studies out there specifically about that. What I did find is in K through 12 a massive amount of information and literature, decades of literature, looking at the disparate rates of specifically exclusionary discipline for students. And I'm not going to cite all the authors because I can't remember them all, but we know that Black students are expelled and excluded from school at multiple times higher than White students, higher than Hispanic students or Latino students. They are consistently referred multiple times for exclusionary discipline. We know on the criminal justice side that there are massive amounts of disparate rates at both arrests, convictions and incarcerations. And what we also know is that students who do get suspended or expelled from K through 12 discipline have a much higher risk of being arrested, incarcerated, or victims of crime as adults. Sarah McDowell Shupp: So things that happen to students in K through 12 with regard to student discipline can affect them for a long time. So my motivating dissatisfaction, and really what got me thinking about that was, how does student conduct impact college students? What happens when we are looking at a predominantly White institution that has operated was founded on what's good for White men? What does that look like when the entire system, our code of conduct, our policies has been written with White students in mind, with White students centered as the neutral or the default? What is that experience then for someone who doesn't identify as White to go through our conduct system? And what does that look like? Sarah McDowell Shupp: And one of the studies that I found was the Carson SAC study from 2014, and they really were studying types of adjudication and student learning. So student reported learning and types of adjudication, no surprise, students learn more when we use restorative practices as opposed to administrative practices. You talk to anybody in conduct, they would be like, "Duh." Of course they do. Yes, we know that. But one of the other things that they found was when they looked at student learning and they pulled out some different demographics, they noted that on six of the student development scales they had developed, White students scored higher than Black students. And so, again, for me, that begs the question, then what are conduct programs made for? Who are they made for? Who are they made to benefit? And there isn't a lot of literature out there about that. Sarah McDowell Shupp: So what that led me to through lots of other reading and research was really to a qualitative study, looking at the experience of Black students at a PWI who participate in a student conduct program, specifically around three lenses that I was curious about. Number one, fairness. We think of fairness. And if you look at some White supremacy characteristics of what fairness is, fairness like objectivity is relative, and we know that what is fair for one student is not fair for another student. And again, I think if you talk to anybody in conduct they know that. So specifically around fairness, specifically around learning, what are students learning in our conduct programs, or as a result of going through our conduct program? And then influences to academic success. Sarah McDowell Shupp: So if we know that students in K through 12, the more that they experience exclusionary discipline, the less likely they are to graduate, the more likely they are to get involved in criminal behavior, what happens at college when students are disciplined? What is the influence there to their academic success? We also know that nationally our rates of graduation, our six year graduation rates, I believe that folks that identify as Asian are first and then it's White folks. And then at the bottom of that list are indigenous folks, but right above that is Black and African-American folks. When we look at those retention rates, again, we're seeing a disparate, or graduation rates, rather, we're seeing a disparate rate by social identity or by race. Sarah McDowell Shupp: So again, there's a lot of factors that influence that. And what's just always been something that has just caused me to question, why is this happening? Why are more Black students being referred to my office? Why is the language different? And then on the outside of that, I just want to know, in my program but also in general, what is that experience like for students at a PWI? What is that experience like for them? How would they describe it? What are their thoughts on fairness, on learning? What we do know, the little bit of study that we do have, Stimson and Simpson presented at 2020's ASCA conference and talked about their huge quantitative project that they had done, where they basically showed that there is a correlation between fairness and learning. And again, if you ask any conduct person, they would tell you duh. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Students learn more when they believe that they've treated fairly. And what Stimson and Simpson found was that, for students that identified as female and what they call minority students, so non White students, that correlation is very strong. It is very strong that for those different individuals in different identities, that correlation between fairness and learning is paramount. So if we know that as practitioners, we need to have an understanding of what fairness means to different students. And then we have to make sure that we're ensuring that for our process, because at the end of the day, if what we were hoping at the end of our conduct process is that students are learning, then we have to make the system fair. We have to make the process fair, and fair is going to look different to different people. Alexandra E. Hughes: Yeah. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Thank you for coming to my Ted talk. That was really long [crosstalk 00:27:31]. Alexandra E. Hughes: Right. I mean, I pass you for your defense. I cannot look. Yes, and there we go. That was, I mean, phenomenal episode over mic drop. I mean yes. Absolutely. Sarah McDowell Shupp: I'm very passionate about this because I think that the work that we do in conduct was we're making allegations, right? If we are charging students, if we are doing something that is going... We wouldn't talk about trauma, we wouldn't talk about using a trauma informed lens. Our process can be traumatic just as much as the precipitating event that brought a student in. Alexandra E. Hughes: Yeah. Sarah McDowell Shupp: So that conduct is sacred work, it is important work, and it is work that has to be explored through multiple lenses and have a very... You can't just show up and say, "Here's the rules. You broke them. You're suspended." That is probably the worst thing that we could do as educators and as people. And if you want to work in conduct, you have to approach it with an equity lens. It has to. I mean, this is just Sarah Shupp talking, not as a representative of anything. But I think you have to have equity at the focus of the work that you do, and fairness and understand that your definition of fairness is in everybody else's definition of fairness, especially based on your own positionality and the identities that you hold, and the different types of power that you may possess at your institution. Sarah McDowell Shupp: We've really got to start thinking about looking at our practices. We're not an extension of the criminal justice system. And though the field has swung that way, that's not who we are. We're not judge, jury, and executioner. And it is inappropriate and unethical for us to behave in that way. And so I really think that equity has to be at the center of conduct professionals work. Alexandra E. Hughes: All right. I mean, the impact that we have on students is more than just them. And I've always said it impacts generations, because if you think about it, there are some students who come into our processes were at universities whose parents, grandparents, whoever they identify, and I'm using that word very loosely, right? Somebody may have sacrificed, sold... Whatever it may be, just to make sure that their student could go to college. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yes. Alexandra E. Hughes: Someone's parents could be picking up extra hours, extra... And this is really a socioeconomic lens that I'm looking at it from, right? The students who are not necessarily privileged to have someone who could just write a cheque and say, "Here you go. It is what it is." And so, when you start looking at that, someone who has sacrificed, then you look at the student who also is sacrificing doing whatever it may be to be able to get their degree, if you expel a student, right? Or suspend a student or whatever, any type of sanction, I see it impacts both prior generations, the current generation of that student in the office. And I'm going to take it a step further. If you expel a student that could even impact their future generations, right? Sarah McDowell Shupp: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Alexandra E. Hughes: Their ability to have a particular education to provide for their children's future, right? And we don't look at it from that lens. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yep. Alexandra E. Hughes: But when you start thinking about, I mean, the power that we really have as student conduct professional, in that way it makes the whimsical, "Oh, I'm just going to suspend them. Oh, I'm just going to expel them." All of a sudden that is so much heavier, right? Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yes. Alexandra E. Hughes: Than just, "Oh, well, it'll be okay." And so, I really appreciate the words and really what you shared, because I think that needs to be somewhere written down on a contract, anytime somebody comes into the field of student conduct to say, "Look, this is what you're getting into." Sarah McDowell Shupp: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Alexandra E. Hughes: But even thinking about where student conduct started, I know for 2020 ASCA, the... What was it? The opening session for the conference? Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yes. Alexandra E. Hughes: We had Dixon V. out. There was a whole thing. What do you remember, or what really stood out to you, if you don't mind me asking just about that session and what you took in? Sarah McDowell Shupp: So that session, so I will share this, I actually had not been feeling well. And I was like, "I'm going to be in the audience. I'm not missing this session. If I do nothing else, this conference..." When I found out that James McFadden and Reverend Shepherd Moody were going to be there, I was like, "Oops, it's all done. I'm in. I'm going to the conference." For me, it was looking at two people or several people, right? But at that time, these two people that represented a turning point in student affairs history, a turning point in our country's history. A representation of two people that I'm looking at these folks and I'm thinking about them when they were 18, 19, 20 years old. Alexandra E. Hughes: [crosstalk 00:33:10]. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yes. And the audacity that they had to plan a protest to go through with the whole thing. And then the way that they were manipulated, and lied to, and completely betrayed by systems that are supposed to protect all people, not just our criminal justice system, but our education system. It was such a miscarriage of justice for them. And I think about all the details of the Dixon case, thinking you're arrested but you're really not arrested. And then you try to go back to school and you find out from the newspaper that you've been expelled and you never had an opportunity to defend yourself. Sarah McDowell Shupp: And that whole time I was thinking about the president, and I can't remember his name right now, but the president of Alabama State at the time. And I was thinking about the position that he was put in to have made this decision to expel them from pressure from the government. And then he still got fired a couple of months later. To think about from his perspective, what he was trying to do for the students, or maybe not for the students, but to hear from James McFadden and Reverend Moody Shepherd and to hear from Tamara King. Sarah McDowell Shupp: I've heard her say it a couple of times. She said, "Do not forget that our profession was built on the blacks of Black students." And hearing that, and looking at that, and looking at everything and the work that we do as protecting those students, right? And not just the ones that are protesting for civil rights, not just those, but protecting all of our students, right? I'm looking at them and I'm thinking, "Did they know at 18 or 19 years old that they were going to set a course for generations of students beyond them?" And to your point, their families and their future children. Did they know that they were doing that at the time. Sarah McDowell Shupp: It was wild to watch and to hear from them, and to hear from Rev. Moody Shepherd. To hear her say that her father lost jobs because of her involvement, but that he told her to keep being involved, keep protesting, keep being an activist. And to deny students in education because they're challenging the system is the most stupid thing I've ever heard of, because that's the whole reason we're educating folks. That's the whole reason that we're here is to educate folks, to help them to ask good questions and be critical thinkers, and to challenge things when they see that they're not just, or they're not right. Sarah McDowell Shupp: And so, looking at these folks that participated in this when they were adolescents, and then how that has impacted the field, it was very powerful for me. And just connected me to the work in a way that then I remember when I'm working with an extremely challenging student or an extremely challenging faculty or staff member, I remember why I do what I do and why when I'm standing in the face of administration or external pressure to do something different, I think about that case. And I think about the individuals at that case. And I think about what was done to them, the trauma of A, living their lives in 1950s, 1960s, Alabama, the trauma of protesting and being what they thought was being arrested and being detained, then the trauma of being kicked out of school. It's so shocking to me that that happens, but I've also seen things like that happen now, where students' rights have been violated. And I think about what trauma have we caused that individual, what unintended consequences will happen because of that. And so it... Yeah. Alexandra E. Hughes: Where it's interesting, what keeps coming to my brain as you say that, honestly, we're activists in our roles in student conduct. And I don't think any of us ever think about it because we're here, we're trying to stop. But really, if you think about the... Like you said and what you've so eloquently just explained to our audience, honestly, how the field started came about because we needed people to be able to step in to say, "Wait a second. I understand that this student has done X, Y, Z, but you can't just take away their rights." Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yes. Alexandra E. Hughes: You can't just make decisions. You can't just say then, "Rules came in in 10 days of noticing this and this." And all the things that we followed today. And all the court cases, all the legal stuff and things that are still happening and changing and whatever, even in 2021. But really that was the foundation of our entire field. And so, when we have those, maybe colleagues who believe that their purpose is to do the opposite of that, it's actually entirely false. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Again, if you got into student conduct because you want to remove the disruptors from the community, I got news for you, that's not what we do. We try to help students understand what is disruptive behavior? What is disorderly conduct? What are these laws? What are these things that you've been accused of breaking or violating? What does that look like for you, and how do we make this make sense? And something that has stuck with me that I always think about is the context of the incident and the context of the violation, the charge, whatever. Sarah McDowell Shupp: And when I was in graduate school, one of the things that struck me, I had to take a multicultural counseling class. And I remember my professor said, "Listen, all counseling is multicultural." And I'm like, "No, it's not. Not unless you're..." 22 year old me is like, 22 year old White, cisgender, middle-class background, extremely privileged because I'm going to graduate school. I will absolutely confess a little bit of White savior complex, right? As I'm starting to want to be a student first professional. And I'm like, "No. Not all counseling is multicultural counseling. Of course not. Only when you're talking about culture is it multicultural." And then I grew up a lot and I got challenged a lot. I got called out. I got called in. I did a lot of reading, did a lot of work on myself. And still doing work on myself, still getting called out and called in. Alexandra E. Hughes: You are. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Absolutely. And I appreciate all those opportunities for growth. But I think what has always struck me about that is that culture and identity it's part of every conversation I have with a student about every violation, every single one. And I think about that when I'm looking at the incident, and I'm looking at a police report, or I'm looking at a report from another student, and I'm assessing the language that's used, and I'm trying to understand where the violation occurred if it did. And then I'm talking with the student, I'm getting more information. Everything has to be viewed through lens of context and through lens of cultural identities, and what does this look like, and what does this mean for this particular student. Sarah McDowell Shupp: And again, that's the work that we do. And that is that protector of student rights, protector of the process. And I think I learned early on in conduct that fairness, again, is subjective, and equality is even subjective. And really I strive more for justice and decolonization than I would necessarily work things like tolerance, or acceptance, or equity, and things like that. So I do think that on that activism piece, like you had mentioned, when we start to see an abuse of a policy, I think that's our job then to look at, well, why is this policy here, right? If it's not a policy that sits in my office, and I don't know how other folks do this, but at the university I work for now, I have the code of conduct and a couple other policies. Sarah McDowell Shupp: But there's hundreds of policies at the university. And some of them are not managed by my office. So I've never seen them until it comes up to conduct as a violation of policy allegation. So then sometimes we have to look at that policy and say, "Wait a minute, there are some things here that need to be changed or need to be considered." And so sometimes we have to be that advocate or that activist for change of policy, change of procedure, whatever that might be. And again, I don't think necessarily people always think that that's what they're doing when they get into student conduct work. Alexandra E. Hughes: Right. I mean, you are right on it. Okay. So let me ask this, we definitely have this inherent responsibility as student conduct officers. Do you think that there are times that all of us just forget that? Everything you just said. What do we do when we forget that? What do we do when we get into these situations? How do we come back from that? How do we remind ourselves of this responsibility, of this sacred work as you've talked about? Sarah McDowell Shupp: That's a great question. And I think... Alexandra E. Hughes: [crosstalk 00:42:57], honestly. I think it's just [crosstalk 00:42:58]. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to think in my head, "What do I do when I'm really struggling? When I have really challenging situations, sad situations. When I'm dealing with a really severe and serious incident where there is..." It's one of these cases where I call... It's sad all around, right? So you've got victims in a case, you've got perpetrators that are facing possible criminal charges and serious jail time, it's going to completely transform their life. Probably not in a positive way. You've got victims that are going to have trauma the rest of their life. Sarah McDowell Shupp: And then you can add in attorneys, and families, and the press, and all of these other things, right? So you can add all these other things in here that can really make you lose focus on what our job is. I think that conduct specifically also can be a target for pressure from other areas of the institution, or even externally to let go of a student, to... One of the worst things that will happen is a student will get arrested off campus for some behavior. And immediately there's calls from the community to suspend this person on an allegation of a crime, right? Not even a conviction, but an allegation. Sarah McDowell Shupp: And I think it's easy to forget that you're trying to protect students and protect their rights. And sometimes, I mean, we all know that students can be jerks. Students can be real, really just not pleasant to work with. And it's hard sometimes to remember even though you may not like me, or even though I might not like you, I don't agree with the decisions you're making, I don't agree with what you're doing, it's my job to protect your rights, to protect your process and to make sure that you have the most fair environment that I can give you for this conduct process. I think for me, one of the things that I keep, and it's going to sound really super cheesy, but I'm a quotes person. So I quotes on things. I like to reread things. And I have a couple of quotes in my office that are up on my wall, that I look at, and that I think about. When I'm having a rough day, I will go back and I will read things that other folks have written about the work that we do. Sarah McDowell Shupp: There's some really good stuff in some of the student conduct books, but the student conduct practice book and the spectrum model for adjudication, both of their second editions have just some really great nuggets in there about the work that we do. And it always energizes me to read things that my colleagues write. And it always energizes me to read things that have what I consider to be people that are giants in the field of student conduct research, or student conduct practice. So I'll do some of that. But I also think one of the things that helps me remember why we do what we do is connection to other colleagues. So being involved in different professional groups and professional organizations and really being able to connect with other folks helps me remember, or to be able to chat with them about an issue that they're having. Sarah McDowell Shupp: I'm a one lady office, so I don't have anybody else to really talk to when there's something going on or I'm struggling with the decision. So having colleagues that I can call and talk to is really helpful and helps connect me to the bigger purpose of what we do and why we do what we do. But I think for everybody that's different. I think everybody's got to figure out how to stay connected to the work and stay connected to the important pieces of the work and not just get bogged down in the day-to-day stressful parts of the work. Alexandra E. Hughes: And maintain that humanity. There's something I always said, and I'll never forget this, the very first time I had to kick someone out of housing, right? Sarah McDowell Shupp: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Alexandra E. Hughes: And I remember that the VP... I was like, "Wait, I got to actually do it. I got to tell him that they have to go." I mean, where are they going to go? That whole thing, right? And I remember doing it, the words, saying it, everything, that you got to go, don't... et cetera. The conversation that we've all had to have. And I remember after that student left my office, I will never forget, I called my mom crying. People don't know this story. I don't think I've ever told it. I called my mom in tears. She was like, "What's wrong? Oh my goodness." And I told her what I did. And I knew it was the right thing and policy and whatever. And the students absolutely needed to... It was not one, very much so. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Right. Alexandra E. Hughes: And it was in that moment that I made a decision. And I said that whenever I... Okay, let me back up. Since then, obviously, conduct you say it so many times, the words become easy, but the feeling never left. And I need to set it apart. The words I can say them so eloquently, I've had to say it so many times, whatever is, you know how to do it, you know how to pause, break, put, where to break, where to take your breath, where to put the word in front of the other, how to say it, how to respond. It becomes like clockwork, right? But the feeling itself never left me. And I made the decision a long time ago that I said, "The moment that the feeling leaves me, it's time for me to leave student conduct altogether." Sarah McDowell Shupp: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Alexandra E. Hughes: Because that means I've become so jaded, right? Sarah McDowell Shupp: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Alexandra E. Hughes: Or I've lost my humanity, or the part where we talked about that inherent responsibility, right? That means that I've reached a point where it's time for me to go. And that's just a decision I made, right? For myself, and everyone may have their different thing and whatever it is, but that's really where that came from. It came from that feeling of remembering and always trying to remember that the person sitting across from me, I think we forget that, is a human being, right? Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yes. Alexandra E. Hughes: Who have their own set of issues like this, this, that. Whether they did it, didn't do it, whatever, however, it's still impactful. And so, that's something that I said years ago and I've stuck with it. You know what I mean? I still say it. I know my role has changed and I've gone from being at the university to now being full-time with ASCA. But one day, if I choose to go back to the university setting, again, still that threshold and that bar that I really hold to say, "Hey," that's the thing. Okay. Well, let me ask- Sarah McDowell Shupp: Well- Alexandra E. Hughes: Oh, go ahead. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Well, let me just comment. Thank you for sharing that. And I think that was such a beautiful example of the other side of conduct work that our colleagues don't see, that our students don't see, that other folks don't understand that these decisions are difficult, regardless of circumstance, regardless those students are, totally deserving of being removed, right? They've violated multiple policies. They've whatever, whatever. Sarah McDowell Shupp: It is never an easy decision. And I have similar stories every time we suspend or separate a student. It is a rough day for me, because even though the student is totally deserving, most of the time, hopefully all of the time, but even though there's a clear reason for it, you're exactly right. That is a person, another human being, and this decision will have rippling effects for their life and their family's life. And so there is a heavyweight to the work that we do. And I think sometimes we also, you've heard me say trauma a couple of times, don't necessarily process the trauma that we go through, the vicarious and secondhand trauma when working with victims or alleged perpetrators and alleged offenders. And then in situations like that, when a student is separated. Alexandra E. Hughes: Yeah. That's why I got a therapist years ago. Everyone know. I'm so open about it, it's not a secret. I'm like, "Hi, my name is Alexandra. I love going to therapy." That's my thing. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Oh, yeah. Alexandra E. Hughes: I have no shame about it. But that's really where it came from, because that constant... I mean, the conversations that we're having, you think about that, and it's real. That could be a whole another podcast episode. And I think it needs to be the... And I don't know what the title would be, but the flip side of student conduct, the tears, the... I mean, people see us and we're the ones at the institution that we have to be the one to say, "You are..." Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yes. Alexandra E. Hughes: That is the hardest thing ever. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yes. Alexandra E. Hughes: And what people don't see is the other side. I mean, I've cried in my car before, I've been in my office like, "What am I doing?" I mean, that whole other side that we have to shoulder, knowing that we're the person that's saying this, that is doing this, that other people get to hide behind the fact that it's my face and my name that gets to be the one that says it. Even though you are the one who wants... Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yeah. Alexandra E. Hughes: Yeah, that's a whole another- Sarah McDowell Shupp: That's a whole other podcast. Though, that's a good idea. Alexandra E. Hughes: Let me start there. Maybe that's why you need to come back, because that... Yeah, that's a whole another one. So I'm going to stop there. Sarah, thank you, I mean, for just being here. I always want to ask this question. Is there a book, a podcast, a song, a recipe, anything that you would recommend? You gave us some books, you gave us some stuff, but is there anything that you would recommend to our audience that's giving you life, that's bringing you joy, that's all of [crosstalk 00:52:47]? Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yes. And I knew you were going to ask this because you told me. And so, I thought about it and I was like, there's so many scholarly things I could recommend, right? I'm right in the middle of reading the book, Hood Feminism. Amazing recommendation. And that's for your scholarship brain. And I'm in the midst of looking at some other things. But I have a ritual and a routine when I am driving to work, that I try to listen to songs that are going to pump me up for the day and put me in a good headspace. And so I recently found this. And I also love mashups. Alexandra E. Hughes: Okay. Sarah McDowell Shupp: So I'm a big fun of bands or singer song writers that do covers of other songs and mashing them together. So, I recently found a mashup, it's by a band called Pomplamoose, and they mixed Bill Withers's, Lovely Day, and Lizzo's, Good as Hell. It is a banger and it is a great little bebop song in the morning. And I listened to it, and I'm like, it combines really good music. Alexandra E. Hughes: Is it on Spotify? Sarah McDowell Shupp: It's on Spotify. Yeah. Alexandra E. Hughes: What is it called? Sarah McDowell Shupp: That's on Spotify. It's called... Actually I can tell you. They also have some other original songs. This band, and I just discovered them, but what they did in 2020, was they put out a music video every week for 52 weeks while they were in quarantine. So they collaborated with musicians all over the world and they put out a lot of mashups. Alexandra E. Hughes: Okay. Sarah McDowell Shupp: And yeah. Don't play it, Sarah. Okay. If you look up, it's just called Lovely Date/Good as Hell. And it's by the band Pomplamoose, P-O-M-P-L-A-M-O-O-S-E. And they've got some great other mash-ups. Alexandra E. Hughes: Yes. Okay. I'm going to play this right after, because- Sarah McDowell Shupp: You'll have to listen to it. It's such a good sunshine- Alexandra E. Hughes: [crosstalk 00:54:41] classic songs that I like totally. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yeah. Alexandra E. Hughes: As we said, vibe with. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Alexandra E. Hughes: Look at us having the language of the year. I'm so proud of us. So we're going to have to... Yeah, that's going to be my thing. Thank you for that. I hope that people enjoy it. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Of course. Alexandra E. Hughes: They're going to love it. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yeah. Alexandra E. Hughes: We'll put all the contact information for you in the show notes, if anyone wants to reach out. They also can see you at Gehring. Let's say that really quickly. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Yes. Alexandra E. Hughes: Tell people what you're doing at Gehring in the summer. Sarah McDowell Shupp: So I am a faculty fellow in the Equitable and Inclusive Practices Track, which is its inaugural year for this track. And I'm so excited. I have been a long... Well, not long time, but I've done three different Gehring experiences. And I loved them. Two of them were in person, one was virtual. And I'm absolutely thrilled to be back as a faculty fellow in this track. And we have got five full days of self-reflection, and looking at codes, and looking at processes, and understanding equity inclusion from some different angles. We're going to talk about assessment. We're going to think about adjudication, and we're going to talk about even some broader campus issues that we should really be looking at through an equity and inclusivity lens. So I'm really excited, and huge shout out to our track coordinator, Dr. James Lorello and our other faculty member, Dr. Carl Williams, they have both been awesome to work with. I think it's going to be a really good time, and I think it's going to be a very informative couple of days. Sarah McDowell Shupp: And really I'm excited to see how the track goes and how it goes this summer. And really looking forward to where more work can come out to the rest of ACSA, especially around equity and inclusivity. I think, again, we've both talked about how important those concepts are to the work that we do. So I'm thrilled that that's a whole track dedicated to it this summer. And it'll be really cool to see what comes out of that. Alexandra E. Hughes: Well, I'm excited. I mean, I hope everyone joins your chat, because I mean, just listening to you, I'm like, "Oh, I want to go sit in." And I'm excited. I love it. So thank you so much for being here, being on the show. You're definitely coming back. I'm not giving you a choice, you just have to. So I'd say, sorry, but I'm not. Sarah McDowell Shupp: No, don't say sorry. I'll definitely come back. And thank you so much. This has been super fun. I love to nerd out about conduct and the work that we're doing in the literature. And so, anytime I get a chance to talk about it with somebody that's interested, I'm here for. My- Alexandra E. Hughes: Well, this place where we nerd out about conduct [crosstalk 00:57:19] lives, literally. Sarah McDowell Shupp: Absolutely. Alexandra E. Hughes: Well, bye everyone. We will catch you on the next episode.