00:01 Alexandra Hughes: Welcome to season three of the ASCA Viewpoints Podcast. The podcast where we talk about the student conduct profession in higher education. I'm Alexandra Hughes, your Viewpoints host.

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00:20 AH: Hey, all you cool cats and kittens. [laughter] Yes, I did just do that. I did just start the episode off like Carol Baskin in the Tiger King. I have no shame. It brings me joy. Carol Baskin did it. I don't care what you say. Now, if you haven't watched the Tiger King on Netflix, just do it. I don't know why you haven't. That was week, I think, one of quarantine life. So trust me, you should. It will bring you joy. It just... It is what it is. Now, onto the context stuff. I hope that this episode finds you well. We are still in the age of COVID-19, and today our topic is surrounding job searching. We're technically in job-searching season right now, and I know that's probably mind blowing for some of us to realize and remember, but we are, we're in May. This has been historically something in our field that really hasn't changed significantly. However, in today's world now it's completely different, and all of us "seasoned professionals" might actually not know how to navigate this process on either side, whether that's interviewer, interviewee.

01:34 AH: And what does that look like in a world that is completely online? Now, our guest today is someone by the name of Travis Houston, and he was just a joy to talk to. He's currently a graduate student that is currently job searching during a global pandemic, and he really gives insight to, I think, both interviewers and interviewees on what to look for, how to manage usually traditional things like on-campus roles and the importance of asking tough questions with intention. Travis is dedicated to the growth of others in all aspects of their lives. He engages in critical thinking, dialogue, and self-reflection to resolve issues and expand comfort zones personally between peers in the workplace and on a societal level. I really think that you will learn a lot from this episode, so please stay tuned for an episode that will make you think about your position, your office, and how we can work collectively to improve our virtual spaces for our futures moving forward.

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02:49 AH: Hello everyone, and welcome back to the ASCA Viewpoints Podcast. I have a special guest with us today, Travis.

02:56 Travis Houston: Yes. Hello, hello.

03:00 AH: Hi. How are you? And welcome to our show.

03:03 TH: Yeah. Thank you for having me. I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I'm just taking it day by day. Still a res lifer, so we are closing up shop here on our campus, just getting students ready to transition into summer, summer COVID-19 style. So...

03:16 AH: Whew, Summer...

03:17 TH: We are just working on that transition.

03:18 AH: COVID-19 in housing. My goodness. I do not envy you at all. I'm actually going to give you lots of love and support from afar, because that seems like a lot.

03:34 TH: Yeah, it has definitely been an interesting transition. We are... It's been like a six-seven week long process down here. In Mississippi it was definitely a later start to most, and so a lot of our stuff has definitely been, not necessarily reactive, but we've had to catch up a lot with a lot of different things. So, it's been very fast transition and what not. We are in our safer-at-home order now, I believe starting on Monday or something. Still trying to social distance, still trying to stop the spread. But things are slowing down a little bit as we're transitioning to check out and students returning to campus that haven't been here in a while. So, it's been fun. It's been interesting.

04:16 AH: Okay. Well, for the people that don't know who you are, could you mind telling us about your student affairs journey, who are you, what you're about? Only things that you're comfortable in sharing on a recorded podcast, I always like to throw that out there. But can you tell us how you got here? What's your journey? 

04:32 TH: Yeah, definitely. So, for those out there, my name is Travis Houston. I use he, him, his pronouns. I am originally from Las Vegas, Nevada. So, I'm a long way away from home, as you'll find out. I started my journey at the University of Nevada, Reno, where I did my undergraduate degree in Psychology, but that was a mishmash of a bunch of different jumping from Physical Therapy to Neuroscience to Law, and then finally settling in Psychology. I was a academic mentor at the Institution in Housing and Resident's Life, and my supervisors introduced me to the whole student affairs concept, as I'm sure a lot of us have been influenced by our extracurricular or job people in our undergrad and being told, "Hey, this is an actual job you can do." And we're like, "Tell me more." And hook, line, and sinker, and I stayed in it. So I did res life in undergrad, as well as I transitioned to working a little bit in different functional areas like union ops, working with special student populations like working with Upward Bound or working with, we called it The Davidson Academy. It's like a school of really young geniuses that take college classes on a college campus, but they're like between six and 18. Wild times.

05:48 AH: Wow! 

05:49 TH: As well as working in some student advising. So, I've jumped around, and that led me to my graduate school search, which I started in 2018 when I was graduating, in that I was looking for a place that was gonna challenge me. It was a new place. I've lived in Nevada for 22 years. I was ready to fly the nest, fly the coop, and really try somewhere new. And that's what landed me where I'm currently at, which is Mississippi State University in Starkville, Mississippi, where I'm doing an educational leadership program. Technically, today was supposed to be graduation. Our online commencement is tomorrow. So, technically two years is done as of today. But I'm doing that, Educational Leadership, concentration in Student Affairs and Higher Ed. And I am a graduate assistant in Housing and Residence Life. I worked in a different building than I am this year, but I work in a traditional hall this year, so no students, unfortunately, right now.

06:45 TH: And I also did an internship with Student Conduct in our Dean of Students office, so that kind of also has influenced my journey. I realized very early on that while res life will always, always have a piece of my heart, it is not where I'm meant to be the rest of my journey. And so I'm very much so geared towards student conduct and care, as well as equity and inclusion initiatives, and so wanting to really tailor my work in the future towards that. And that's kind of what my job search has been, just a split between student conduct and care positions, as well as housing because there are a plethora of housing positions. So maybe the next 2-3 years we will see where that lands me. But I guess for now, y'all will probably learn a lot... Continue to learn more about me as we continue on, but I think that's about everything as of right now.

07:34 AH: Okay. So in other words, if you are hiring, contact Travis. We'll make sure we have all of his contact information. I'm gonna say it, and I'm going to be the person to throw it out there, because he is fascinating. I can say that from someone who has worked with him, worked with him on our Equity and Inclusion Committee. You want him. So I'm just gonna throw that out there and give my total love and say, "Look, you have to have him." So, just saying that. Well, okay. Well, you definitely... I resonate with your story very much so. Kind of the same, I started off in housing. I said, "Oh, no, no, no, no. I want 8-5, this is not for me." It will always be my first love, as I say. I grew up in housing, but I found conduct, and same thing as you, equity, inclusion, social justice work, and I was like, "Alright, conduct is my thing. This is where we're going."

08:21 AH: So I definitely am here for that. So talk to us a little bit about your experience right now, I know we kind of mentioned it when we first got on the show, but with COVID-19 and your experience with being in the very last part of grad school, you're in housing, COVID-19, and really just kind of going into... And I'm gonna segue this probably in the next question, but job searching in COVID-19, right? That's new. That's different. Even for us who have already been in the field and who are these "seasoned professionals", we think we know everything, and we know nothing, nothing about how to job search online in a global pandemic. So I think you're gonna be teaching us a lot of stuff.

09:03 TH: Yeah, definitely. I can certainly give my two cents on what the experience has been like and whatnot. And I'm always somebody who I definitely don't want to speak for all of my other fellow grad folks that are in this struggle with me, 'cause it has definitely been a collective struggle, and everybody has... The stories that I've heard, ranging from interviews to what we have, I think, all have started to realize is a phenomenon is sometimes professional ghosting on either end, whichever part you are in the process. But it's been a journey. I think that when COVID-19 hit it was actually right after my first on-campus interview, actual on-campus, a concept nowadays. Who thinks about going to a campus and traveling? But it was right after that when things started to go on lockdown, different stay at home orders. And so everything started to really shift, and everything started to really get delayed or get altered or get cancelled in terms of interviews, or in terms of on-campuses, or even some positions staying open.

10:10 TH: I know that there have been a variety of responses that institutions have had to take, and therefore it's been interesting trying to be both empathetic with the institutions who are now struggling with, "Hey, we have a lot of other things on our plate, and therefore, hiring, our search process right now has had to take a back seat, but we'll make sure to keep you in the loop", as well as trying to look out for yourself and be very in tune with yourself of, "I'm graduating, and I wasn't really planning on unemployment for an undetermined amount of time." So it's definitely been an interesting shrivel to try and balance those two things, and trying to keep the care and the love for our fellow colleagues out there, and also trying to look out for yourself in terms of, "Well, I still need a job. [chuckle] I still need to have somewhere to go after I graduate."

11:00 AH: Okay, so then I'm gonna start with this. What are you doing... Because I remember the stress from it's graduation, it's I need a job, what am I gonna do? And so I remember that, so I can only imagine how magnified it is. What are you doing to take care of yourself? Let me start there. What have you found? What are you doing to balance what you just said? 

11:19 TH: Yeah, I think that that has been a journey that I've had to take, even before COVID-19 hit, because I realized, as sometimes us student affairs practitioners do, we don't take care of ourselves very well, and a lot of our hobbies and a lot of our extra curriculars take a back seat to the lives that we live in student affairs. And so that's been a thing that I've had to really hone in on or zone in on and kind of make sure I'm actually paying attention to. So the quarantine life has definitely allowed a lot of us sit down and free time, and so I've had to really start implementing some other things. And my partner, a natural introvert, has definitely had a lot of insight and a lot of help in helping me, an extroverted introvert, transition to this kind of lifestyle. And so I've had to get back into playing some video games, reading books for the first time that's not related to grad school. I can tell you, I haven't read a real book since first year of college, which was six years ago, and I just finished a book that I'd started that year a week ago. So it's been nice to finally get to sit down and read a book that's not about theory, however, that still helps you stay on top of your game. I've also just had to start embracing the long-distance friendships and relationships, and embracing FaceTime and different web interfaces of trying to stay connected with folks.

12:47 TH: I know that I've... Whether it's virtual happy hours or just trying to really engage with people in those spaces, I think it's helped me stay a little more sane just because now we all have that opportunity and that time to do that. And so it's really been nice to reconnect with folks that I haven't maybe seen in a while, who maybe are grad students who are also graduating and going through similar struggles at different institutions. Or folks who are struggling because they've been laid off or furloughed and now they have a lot of free time. And so it's been really nice to do that. I think those are the main things that I've been trying to do to take care of myself in this time, as well as a lot of advocacy. I know that at first we got hit with our say at home order as well as all these different things during spring break, and then we got an extended spring break so that professors could move to online.

13:34 TH: And there was definitely some struggle in understanding how to even be a student anymore for us housing grads because everything and anything, the first thing we were really thinking of or was in our face was our jobs. And so being a student anymore was just like, "I don't know what that means. I don't know what part of my... Or how that part of my identity is really being highlighted in this moment." And so class time turned into a lot of us coming together, talking about what was going on, and supporting one another and being a place of support. I think that one of the things that I made sure to quote a lot was that I was like, "I am getting so much challenge in terms of what we're doing in the field. This is gonna be great things to reflect back on, a lot of practice that we're getting with things that nobody has had practice with. I don't need any more challenge other than that, and therefore any type of support that we can provide in this space would be greatly appreciated."

14:31 TH: And I think that our faculty members were very receptive to that. We also have a lot of administrative faculty where they are administrators across campus as well and are dealing with this outside of teaching. So there was that opportunity to really be empathetic and understand what the grads are going through, what the full time are going through, how can we make this class time experience, especially with it closing out our grad school experience, a little bit more supportive and more like a think tank and looking towards the future of how are we now going to need to prepare for jobs that aren't gonna look the same, especially if we have to do them virtually. Or having to think of how to increase competencies when it comes to technology and whatnot, and how to sell ourselves in an interview space now that is looking for folks that have that technology competency and that are attuned to what maybe these changes will look like in a student affairs side of things.

15:26 AH: Yes, to everything that you just said. I think it is so often that we forget the different identities that people hold and so... But they also can help us, right? So like when you're talking about professors that are administrators, that was me. So I'm an administrator, right? Student conduct, right? Clearly, that's why we're here. But I'm also a professor as well. And so when the world was going online and it's like we have to redo this syllabus thing that I spent so much time at the beginning of the semester working on that I was very proud of myself, right? It was like, "Oh my goodness." And so for me, I really went back to those student affairs core values that I know about students, right? Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? You're not concerned about my class when we're concerned about where are we living, what's going on, a pandemic.

16:14 AH: Let's break that all the way down. So I think that really helped. On top of the fact that another identity that I hold is I'm a student as well. And I'm like, "I don't... I'm tired. I don't know what to do with this." But I really like what you talked about that I think a lot of us don't know. When you're now interviewing for these jobs online, what is that like? Because I remember for me, even when I... So I moved to this particular position four years ago. And so the first interview was online, I think we were using Skype then, Skype Business. Now we've gone to Zoom, right? But it was the interview, because we're interviewing across the country, and then it was, "We're gonna be doing an on campus interview if we like you", because that's typically what we've always done. So what is it now interviewing online and then what do people talk about their processes as? 

17:08 TH: Yeah, that has definitely been a journey. Because I started my search relatively early, because as we have talked about, whether it be at conference or at different spaces, there's not maybe necessarily as many conduct jobs out there as there are housing jobs, even though there's a lot of stuff that conduct folks are expected to do. And so I knew that any time that a conduct job was getting posted, if it was something that I could see myself doing, I was jumping on it. And so I started my process very early, and I started to learn, "Okay, you need to maybe pay attention to the inflection of your voice when you're talking over the phone", or, "You need to pay attention to different things that you might not be aware of in a virtual space, but that you are very aware of in a physical space because that's what you're comfortable with." For those that know, I went through the Oshkosh Placement Exchange, and that is just a whole journey.

18:00 AH: Oh, yeah.

18:00 TH: And I was not about to do the placement exchange because that was just not... It just wasn't for me. And so I knew that a lot of my stuff was going to be virtual anyways. But now you add on this whole other layer of not only is your first interview gonna be online, but your second interview, and your third interview, and your on campus are all gonna be online. And it's been interesting, especially as someone who had the opportunity to do a physical on campus before everything got shifted online. And I know for me, a lot of my questions and a lot of my concern when it comes to doing an on campus interview is I wanna know can I say see myself here physically. When it comes to meeting the people, I feel like there's a different vibe that you can get when you're physically in their presence and you can actually walk around on campus with them or go around on campus with them and talk about different things. And there's different opportunities in between interviews to get information, to share different things about yourselves that you don't really get when it's, "Okay, your interview is gonna last from this time to this time." You have a 10-15 minute transition that you're not talking to anybody, and then you're moving on to the next interview.

19:07 TH: And so I know that now comparing that I've done a virtual on campus and a physical on campus, I know that, one, it's hard for us as the interviewers to really understand, "Okay, I can talk about all these great things, you all can talk about all these great things, it's just now I have to trust my gut in what you're saying and what you're showing me, whether that be through showing me maybe your programming model or showing me the different ways you implement your code of student conduct, or your websites." Websites have become super important in understanding now maybe an institutional culture because that's how we can get our information. I know that I've been advocating a lot to employers on, "Who can you connect me with to talk about these different things that maybe isn't on your team as well?" Because I really value campus partnerships, especially going into whether it's conduct or housing, I think that just kind of runs a lot of different things that we're doing, and ultimately helps different initiatives that we may be already working on or haven't even touched upon. So campus partnerships and getting connected to those folks is really important for me too.

20:09 TH: Something else that is really not difficult, but more complex to navigate, is as somebody coming from an underrepresented background of being queer, I'm somebody who I'm not gonna... For a lack of better term, I'm not gonna dance around the topic. I'm somebody who's going to ask in an interview, "How are you supporting X, Y, and Z students of various backgrounds? How are you... How is the division or the university supportive of faculty and staff that come from various underrepresented backgrounds?" Because I need to know, one, are you taking care of the students from those backgrounds? 'Cause two, if you're not, you're probably maybe not also taking care of faculty and staff in those backgrounds either, which is a possibility. And so, I'm somebody who wants to interrogate those things and wants to put that on the table because if I can't physically see myself there as well as get a gauge of what the atmosphere is like around having queer safe spaces, or around having those different identities supported, then that's not necessarily somewhere where I would want to be. So that has definitely become a more complex process of how do you ask those difficult questions, and in those virtual spaces and not get to see it for yourself and talk with students physically there or talk with faculty and staff physically there that maybe also come from those backgrounds or can speak to what their peers and colleagues have gone through.

21:29 TH: And so that's been an interesting way of how I've tried to navigate the virtual on-campus space and prepare for those, whether it be before and talk to different faculty and staff that the people who are interviewing me connect me to, or just reaching out to people that I look up on the websites and what not and asking, "Hey, I'm interviewing for a position here. Can you talk to me a little bit about these different topics as this might be a focus area of your work, or as somebody who openly identifies as an ally to these different populations? How can I get a little bit more information from you to understand maybe questions I should ask in the interview, or things I should be aware of, if for whatever reason I am offered a position and decide to accept?"

22:08 AH: You're basically bringing up things that I've never had to think about before in the sense of... And I think part of it... And when we look at social media and when we look at online spaces, part of Instagram, if we're gonna talk about that, is we always put our best foot forward. So think about angles, think about these are the best pictures of me in this online virtual space, because that's what we have. So kind of the same thing when I'm thinking of on campus interviews, they're probably putting or trying to put their best foot forward, and whereas when you go to a campus and, like you said, you can understand the atmosphere, understand the vibe, understand that type of thing, then it allows you to maybe... You can kind of avoid asking some questions because you can really see for yourself, you can feel it. But it's almost like in this space, like you're saying, "I can't do that, so I have to literally ask and go about it in these different ways."

23:00 AH: And I love the ways that you've talked about in the sense of saying, "Hey, look", asking faculty, reaching out to different spaces, and really just asking the hard questions. What's been your response when you've asked the hard questions, and... How have people responded to that? Have they said, "No, I totally get it. We're online. You need to know." Are they receptive, are they like, "Whoa." What has that been? 

23:23 TH: Yeah, I definitely think that there has had to have been... And I hope that is on both sides. There has had to been a lot of grace applied, in the sense of from interviewers to interviewees of like, "I understand that you are trying to move this process online, you're trying to make the greatest experience for the people that you're interviewing. So I get it if everything's not perfect, I get it if there's some mishaps or some whoops in the middle there, I totally get it." Just as much as having the grace on the other end of, "Hey, we are all now having to navigate being in virtual spaces and not getting to see the places that we would potentially work other than pictures or other than what a picture you can paint for me." And so I think that that grace has definitely been a thing. I think that the responses that I've gotten are ultimately that they've been super happy to connect me with various people outside of their own office, whether that be campus partners because they couldn't get them in the interview, or with potentially students.

24:22 TH: It's kinda just been a mishmash. I also definitely wanna recognize that I'm someone who... I've only participated in two on campuses, and therefore I haven't necessarily gotten to the point where I've been able to ask maybe those deeper questions that you get maybe in a second or a third or an on campus interview. So I think that while my perspective may be a little limited in what I've been able to see from other folks in terms of what they've been able to provide for experiences and whatnot, I think that ultimately I've gotten a good response and I think that people have appreciated me being forward and me being honest. I know something that we talked a lot about in the Community of Practice for Gender and Sexuality as well as the Queer Summit over at ASCA that happened this past year was being able to ask those really difficult questions in interviews to advocate for the experience you're looking for. A lot of experiences where different members felt that they were sold different things, and then when they got there and they had their experiences, they realized that that part of their identity or other identities may have not been supported in those spaces or maybe were not as...

25:38 TH: Maybe they weren't as honest or as truthful about what the experience would be like for somebody from those identities. And so I think that that has been something that I've tried to keep at the forefront of my search and tried to be as honest and as upfront about those different things, because as someone who... I know that it depends on the individual and it depends on the identity, because I can be very privileged in the sense that I could walk into a space and just be a white cisgender male-presenting straight individual if I wanted to and try and pass that off and hide behind those identities, and I very much so recognize that I have a privilege that not a lot of other folks have, but I'm also not someone who ever wants to do that. It took me a while to figure out I was queer, and I'm not just about to just throw that back in the closet. We're gonna keep it out.

26:22 AH: Hey, I'm here for it.

26:22 TH: And it's something that I bring with me... It's something that I bring with me to work every day, it's something that I want to bring to conversations with students intentionally. Because I think also what we talk about a lot of is when students don't see representation in different higher up positions, especially on campus, then they may not feel as likely to really want to disclose that information or find support in other ways by finding others like them. And so, especially I want to hear from folks in those offices, "How have you been able to bring conversations around equity and inclusion and identity into conversations with your peers, with your students, and how have you been able to be a means of support for those students from various backgrounds? Whether those are fluid backgrounds in terms of sexuality and gender, or other more concrete ones where they can't really hide it or it's not really fluid, it's there and it's present." And so just trying to make sure that I ask those difficult questions and let them know a little bit of context as to why. And I'm also somebody who I'll be traveling to my next place potentially with a same sex partner, and I want to make sure that, "Is this a space where my partner could come to work during lunch or whatever, and say hi, and they would feel welcome and it wouldn't be some awkward interaction where people are like, 'Oh yeah, that's that situation over there' kind of thing?"

27:42 TH: Because I just don't wanna end up in a place in which I was sold one thing, and then it's another. So whether that looks like talking to people outside of the office and getting an outside perspective, which most of the people I've talked to, they've been very open about having others talk about them. And they've been very confident in, "We know that other folks will talk about us in this way, but we want to hear that from them, not from us, and hear our biased opinion." Making sure that I am fact checking. I'm checking websites on like, "What is your student population? Do you collect certain data?" So that I can actually gear my questions towards certain things. If you recognize that you're a PWI and how you combat being a PWI when you still have students who don't identify within that population. So trying to make sure that I am tough with my questions, but tough with a purpose so that it's not me trying to tear them down, and it's like, 'cause I still need a job and I can't do that.

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28:33 TH: And so, trying to be tough with intention, and trying to be as transparent and vulnerable with them so that hopefully they can provide the same for me.

28:43 AH: Well, I respect that, and I think that's so real. I think part of it is understanding safety is a big thing. And safety becomes so important when you are navigating these spaces, in both understanding your privileges and marginalizations, right? There's so many things. And even in reference to what you talked about, I'm a black woman and I'm a cis-gender black woman that you can see, right? But part of it, and I always say this, I say, "Well, I'm also a straight cis-gendered black woman." So I don't have to worry about, for example, my partner who's a male, coming into that space. But it's different things, and I think that's so important because that's a real concern. And also, I agree with you. I love that tough with a purpose and tough with intentionality, because let's be real, this is already hard to find a job, right? You wanna make sure if you're moving, you're moving to a safe space. But it also allows I think both places to really get a real understanding of the person in this online Zoom world that we've created, to say, "Hey, look, will you really fit here with us? Well, do you wanna come? Let's talk about this, let's have these conversations. Let's talk to these outside partners." So people know that, "Yes, the Office of Student Rights and Responsibilities at this particular institution, this is really what they stand for and what they do and how the space is and how the environment is."

30:03 AH: So I respect that, and I think that a lot of people listening to the show... I mean there are people who are job searching currently, right now, who aren't straight out of grad school either. This is just new for everyone, and I really just think that you've given so much advice for people that is just incredible, because things that I just wouldn't have had to think about because I haven't had to think in that space. So talk to me about this. Has anyone asked you on your interview about your experience with COVID-19? How does that go? 

30:32 TH: I think that it's been interesting to navigate that because I think it's with any of our spaces right now, Everyone is trying to test the waters of the room of like, "So, are we tired of talking about COVID-19, or are we on fire for talking about COVID-19 right now?" And so I think that what I've really appreciated is that some interviews have just started off or set aside time to be like, "So how are you doing", kind of thing, and I've really appreciated that and having that moment to connect. Being like, "Okay, we're colleagues, we're peers in this moment. It's not interviewee, interviewer kind of thing. It's we're getting connected on what's going on, how we're processing through that." So I haven't had any specific questions tailored towards what COVID-19 has been for me, or how I'm processing through all of that. I think it's been more conversation pieces, which I've really appreciated. I think that I have found that there are some influences in my answers from COVID-19 just because it's so on the mind that even if I've had examples prepared for answering specific questions, being like, "I've got this down, I can give you crisis management, I can give you this." And then I find myself talking about, "Well, right now this is a situation that I'm processing through."

31:41 TH: And sometimes it's just off the cuff of like, "Actually, I have something that applies", because I think something that we're gonna start seeing, kinda how I mentioned a little bit earlier, is how are we able to excel our experiences that will then apply to the changes that we're going to see in the positions we're applying for? Because I know that a lot of housing folks are thinking about that right now, of like, "Is there a Fall 2020? If so, what does housing play in that role if anybody, or if nobody lives on campuses?" 'Cause I know that's a big fear that we have just been talking about, of the reality of that. I think that if we don't have students physically on campus, how do we program around that in a student activities space? How do we actually, not enforce, but how do we tailor our code of conduct to then be applied in a virtual space and still hold students accountable and have those conversations about behavior and areas of concern in a virtual setting now? And so how do we tailor our experiences now, or while we were in grad school, or our previous position, whatever your case is, to now being applicable and now being able to sell your experiences for an on online... Not online position, but like a virtual position kind of.

32:50 AH: Well, I really think it is online, this virtual... I mean the reality is we don't know what's gonna happen. I mean none of us could have expected this, right? We were all like, "Oh yay, 2020. Great." And we're like, "No, 2019 was wonderful." Right? It's one of those things where none of us could have expected this, where we are functioning every day in a space where, "What is this? Don't have an answer. Never had to deal with this before." And we're literally learning and coming up with things on the spot. And I think that that's just part of it. So that's why there's so much connectivity that's going on, even with colleagues across the country, the world. Right? Because it's like, "Well, how are you doing this?" Or "What does that look like?" Or even for me, I have one of my past mentors, who she called me, who I've learned everything from her, and she's like, "So, Zoom hearing title nine. How do I do that?" Right? And I mean the roles have reversed in a sense, right? Or it's just what does that look like, and how do we collectively work together because this is something that's new and different for all of us? Which is just, it's fascinating to see. So, here's something.

33:52 AH: Have you asked... And maybe you haven't had the opportunity to ask, or maybe you've thought about it. Could part of your questions be asking this particular institution what their institutional response was to COVID-19? And could that influence maybe if you actually desire working at that institution based off of what they said that their institutional response was? 'Cause we know that institutions across the country all responded in very different ways, and maybe how we personally feel were appropriate or not appropriate.

34:26 TH: Yeah. I think that I've heard from peers and colleagues about being very upfront with those types of questions of like, "How did your department, how did your institution respond?" 'Cause I think that a lot of, especially for grads who are moving right now, especially housing grads, it's been just a whirlwind of everybody's having a lot of different experiences of, "Oh yeah, I was sent home because I'm a grad, and therefore I'm a student and they wanted me to go home and the full-time took care of things." Or, my experience right now, we are here. We are essential. We are on the ground. We are doing things, and we are helping out where we can. And so I think that some of my peers have definitely been able to benefit from asking those questions of, "How did your institution and how did your division or how did your department respond?" And therefore, I think it turns into a lot of, "How are you taking care of people that you're supervising, that are your supervisors during this time?" I know I try to tailor some of my questions now more to, "How are you being taken care of in times of crisis? How are you caring for those you supervise and your students in a time of crisis?"

35:34 TH: As well as, "How has this influenced your crisis response for your department or your institution?" Because you can apply that in a lot of different contexts. If you're applying to a school that's always in a disaster zone, whether that be hurricanes, tornadoes, whatever the case is, this may influence how they now respond and communicate during a crisis. Because for one thing that I've learned from this is that communication can make or break your response to any kind of crisis that you have, whether that's on the student level and them getting information, or even your folks that are on the front lines, whether that's your entry level, whether that's your grads, whether that's even mid or senior-level professionals. Depending on what you're doing, those people actually implementing those responses or getting student feedback from those responses is crucial in terms of communicating the why sometimes behind what we're doing. And I know that that's not always feasible, and it's certainly a lot of high pressure on those folks who have to make those decisions and are actually in the room when they're being made. And so, I think there's a lot that's gonna be learned from this, and a lot of research, a lot of assessment, a lot of reflection on, "Did we respond well?" Or "How can we respond in the future to things, whether it's pandemic-related, or whether it's other crisis-like response?"

36:48 AH: It's true. How can we move forward? And how can we make sure that moving forward, we do it to the best of our abilities? And I think that's really going to separate those that are successful institutions, and those that aren't. I'm gonna be very honest with you, people that say, "Look, at the end of the day, we're not gonna be able to put this... We can't put Pandora's box... We can't put this back in the box." This happened, and it wasn't a week or two. I mean, who knows what that looks like? And so there is no... There is no going back, right? And I think that's the reality of it. It's going forward. So how do we ensure that we're going forward in a way that is beneficial and the best outcome for all parties involved? Right? Our students, our staff, our faculty, our administrations, our community, our campus communities. That's the thing, our institutions impact entire communities of people, so that plays a role in what happens and what we're doing. And I think that we definitely need to make sure that we're keeping that in consideration. So, for sure.

37:47 AH: Is there anything that I didn't ask you? Because I feel like you've just shared so much information, and I feel like you've really just provided a wealth of knowledge that people will really be able to use for resources. I think that anyone who's job searching right now needs to make sure that they listen to this episode, talk to you, and also hire you. Right? 

[chuckle]

38:06 AH: I'm just gonna... I'm just gonna throw that out there. I am forever your cheerleader, and hire Travis Houston. I'm just throwing that out there. You see his name, Travis Houston, hire him. This is my, not letter of recommendation, but my podcast speaking of recommendation. So maybe that's a thing, right? When they ask for references, you can be like, "Well, I have a whole podcast that has recommended me." I'm just gonna throw that out there in the air. That's okay? 

[chuckle]

38:32 AH: We're gonna help with that. Is there anything that I didn't ask you maybe, that you wanna share with people? 

38:38 TH: I'm trying to think of anything. I do really appreciate just you providing this space, 'cause I definitely for one, I wanna definitely recognize I do not speak for all of my fellow folks that are... Whether you're coming in straight out of grad school, or you are trying to transition in your next step to either a different position at the same level or trying to make that move up, the job search has just been more of a struggle, I think, in this time of pandemic, maybe, than it's ever been. And I think that it's just been a lot of reflecting on, "What do we need in this moment, and how can we get through this process together?" As opposed to allowing those potential... I know that we talked about in our cohort of like, "How are we gonna talk about job search with one another? Are we gonna be open about it? Are we gonna talk about things?" Or are we gonna just, everybody stay on your own path, and when somebody says that they got a job, like, "Congrats", and whatnot, and kinda go our separate ways? And it's been interesting.

39:29 TH: So I definitely wanna make sure that I definitely do not speak for all of the experiences. I can only speak for my own perspective, and maybe some of the folks that I have asked, "Hey, tell me a little bit about what you're experiencing so I can kinda share it in this space as well." I think that ultimately there's just such a huge learning curve from this that all of us are gonna have to go with. And it's the biggest thing that I think that a lot of people in similar positions to mine right now, is we're having to get okay with the very unknown. Job search provides an unknown and this is just a whole other unknown of maybe we need to search for positions that we weren't really thinking about before. So what positions are still essential and are hiring and whatnot? And do we need to start looking at, "Maybe I need to take that position first, and then when things kind of calm down and job search is more feasible, try for another search and try to get into the functional area that I'm meant to be in, or a position that is in an area that I would prefer to be in."

40:30 TH: I think that it's gonna be very interesting looking a year ahead from now, and seeing what that looks like and how many people are job searching. Because one possibility I can think of is people are gonna be doing a lot of settling for the sake of having job security and having someplace, whether it's a place to live, whether it's having a paycheck, rather than sticking with the unknown for an undetermined amount of time and potentially having to seek out unemployment. I'm interested to see how many folks that graduated in 2020 or how many people that were job searching in 2020 choose to job search again in six months to a year, and how the field is going to respond to that. Because I think that we already have this concept that could be turned into a little bit more of a negative stereotype around people who only stick around in their position for one year and then hop to somewhere else, because they were unhappy, because it wasn't the right fit, or because another opportunity presented itself. And sometimes people get a bad rap for that.

41:25 TH: And I think that it's gonna be interesting to see how COVID-19 job search changes the game around that and the conversations around, "Well, there are a lot of people that may have accepted positions they would have never accepted before, but did so, so they could provide for themselves, for their partners, for their families." Or how are we going to respond and support those folks who then, once this is all over, actually make a jump to another position that actually benefits their career trajectory, their mental health, their life plans, and whatnot? 

41:56 TH: I can definitely say that there are places that I'm looking at right now that I never thought that I would ever look at just because I'm trying to provide something for myself for the next year, and then see is this a place I can stay for two to three years, or is this a place that it's gonna work for a year and I'm gonna give it my all and then, "Sorry, I gotta find [chuckle] something else to do"? And it's just... It's a weird place to be in. And I think that it'll be interesting to look at, whether it's... Whenever this ends, whether that's, hopefully six months to a year down the line, or who knows at this point. People ain't staying in their houses, so I don't really know.

[chuckle]

42:29 AH: Right. No, and I think that's real, right? I mean, it changes our perspective on a lot of things. Like you said, I mean, let's call a spade a spade, what it is. In our field we have this unspoken but spoken rule that says, "Well, you need to make sure that you're staying in a job for more than a year, even if you don't like it, you need to at least get through the year. Then you need to stay for a couple of years depending on the level that it is." Is it entry level? Is it mid-management? What does that look like? Or if you're leaving, you better have a really good reason, like, "Oh, I was in a doc program", or something, which is interesting, right? But I love that you bring that into perspective. There's gonna be so many people that maybe are taking positions that they wouldn't have taken before because, guess what? Going back to what I said in the beginning, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we need to survive. And I think that's real. I also think with that, the way we're looking at that and changing that perspective, is the same thing when it comes to online institutions.

43:23 AH: Prior to COVID-19, there was this, "Well, are you brick and mortar, are you online? What value do you serve?" Everyone's online. So again, it allows us to really, I think, examine what it is that we hold important, and I think maybe re-examine what it is that we need to hold important, and what matters. So I completely love that. Well, Travis, can you do this for our listeners? I always like to ask, is there a book that you've been reading, like the one that you started six years ago, that you'd recommend? Is there a podcast outside of this podcast? A song, music, art? Something that's giving you life that you would like to share with the people that people need to know about, that you would recommend.

44:05 TH: Definitely. As somebody who is just now getting back into reading, my reading is definitely more of the fiction type. It gets me out of this world that we're living in and into another world. So I revisited reading The Inheritance Cycle. If anybody knows the Eragon movie and whatnot, trying to jump back into that, the land of the mystical, the land of not COVID-19.

44:27 AH: Yes.

44:27 TH: That's definitely where my mind has been going. I've also just been trying to gauge and understand maybe what personal professional development I need to engage in this summer, on like, "What tech skills can I start to work on? What things can I look up and study in order to prepare myself a little bit better for if my job is very virtual come the fall and whatnot?" And so, those are things that I know that I'm looking into right now, and I'm kind of leaning on peers and other resources for that just because very baseline understanding of technology, just enough to get by. But now, we need a little bit more than enough to get by. I think also some things that I've doing music-wise, I've definitely been trying to keep up with the times, up with the children, know what they're listening to.

45:10 AH: Hey.

45:11 TH: Because sometimes that really influences what they're feeling or different things that are going on in life. I'm a big Dua Lipa fan in terms of the new album that just came out. I can have that on repeat and really just zone into whatever I'm doing. I'm also a really big advocate and a really big fan of RuPaul's Drag Race.

45:30 AH: I love that show! 

45:31 TH: Because it's just... And now they have three to four hours worth of content on Friday evenings. It's just a really easy way to spend your Friday evening. If you can't go to the club and tip a queen and watch Drag Race in person, then you watch three to four hours of drag online, or on TV. And what's interesting is there's also a lot of opportunities to engage in those entertainer spaces like where drag queens or drag performers in general are performing on online spaces now where you can tip with your Venmo or CashApp or all those different things, and support entertainers who are also struggling during this time. So me and my partner have tried to take advantage of those things, because we like the night life, but there's not a lot of night life going on right now.

46:14 AH: There's no night life.

[laughter]

46:14 TH: Those spaces as well. It's been a fun time to do those as well.

46:18 AH: Well, I love all of those things, and I think our listeners will definitely take you up on some of them. I don't know if you're on the social medias or any of the online interweb spaces, but if someone wanted to reach you, how could they reach you? 

46:33 TH: Yeah, definitely. Social media presence may not be as strong, but they can definitely reach me at the email that I'll keep after I leave my current institution, which will be TJHouston, like the city, 96@gmail.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn, especially if you're an employer out there in the student conduct or housing realm, you know where to find me on there. But ultimately, email is gonna be the easiest and fastest way to get in contact with me. You could look me up on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all those things. I'm there too, same name. So, pretty easy to find.

[chuckle]

47:09 AH: Well, wonderful. Well, Travis, we appreciate you so much for coming on our show. We look forward to maybe having an update with you in some time to see what happened, what the result was, what it looked like, and then going from there. Okay? 

47:24 TH: Yeah, definitely. Sounds like a plan. I'm into it.

[music]

47:30 AH: This episode was produced, edited, and hosted by Alexandra Hughes, that's me! If you're enjoying the podcast, we ask that you like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps others discover us and become more visible to our podcasting community. If you have suggestions for future guests or would like to be featured on the podcast yourself, feel free to reach out to us by email at ASCAPodcast@gmail.com or on Twitter @ASCAPodcast. If you'd like to connect with me on Twitter, you can find me @AlexandrasView. Talk to us, we talk back! 

[music]