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ARTY: Hi everyone, this is Episode 161 of Greater Than Code. I am Artemis Starr and I am here with my super cool, awesome friend, Chante Thurmond.

CHANTE: Hello, Chante here. And I am here with our new-ish panelist, Jacob Stoebel.

JACOB: Hello.

CHANTE: Hi, Jacob.

JACOB: I'm going to read the bio. Bari A. Williams is VP of Legal, Business, and Policy Affairs at All Turtles, a startup advisor in the tech industry, and published author in the New York Times, WIRED, Fortune, and Fast Company. She is the former Head of Business Operations Management for North America at StubHub where she was responsible for business planning and operations to manage and oversee technica, internal and external metrics, product innovation, and partnerships and drive P&L results across the company. She also serves as an advisor to startups in the enterprise and e-commerce space.

Prior to StubHub, Bari was senior commercial attorney at Facebook supporting internet.org connectivity efforts, building drones, satellites, and lasers, and supporting the company's supply chain. She also successfully took on the passion project of creating and implementing Facebook's Supplier Diversity Program, launched in October 2016. Welcome to the show.

BARI: Thank you.

CHANTE: Yay.

JACOB: What is your superpower and how did you acquire it?

BARI: I will say this has been more highlighted this week than any other week. My son is a 9-year old fourth grader and he came home with a very woke question to write a prompt to. And it was like, "Hey, is it the duty of the school or your parents to tell you how to deal with law enforcement?" And I was like, "Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa." And that made me stop and think about multiple things. But also my superpower is being a black woman. That's it. That's a tweet. Tweet it, do whatever.

CHANTE: I love that.

BARI: That's it. My superpower is being a black woman. And the reason why is because I have seen nothing but black women work the entirety of my lifetime from my own mother, my grandmother, my great grandmother, and they did everything that they needed to do and then came home and cooked the food and made sure you ate the food and they cleaned up the dishes and they did everything else. And that's also horrible because I have insomnia. So thanks mom and grandma and great grandma, I have insomnia. Also my kids have insomnia, which is horrible. Especially as a parent, that's like especially horrible. It's like, "Please go to bed."

CHANTE:	[Laughs]

BARI: But no really, "Go to bed." And they're like, "But you're awake." "Yeah, but I'm doing something that at least earns money. Can you go to sleep?" So for me, my superpower is being a black woman. We vote, we take care of home, we take care of the companies, we do everything that people ask us to do. And then some, and there isn't necessarily a gratitude for that. So that's that.

CHANTE: Bari, this is Chante. I can relate to you. I'm a black woman. Technically, I'm a half black woman, because I'm half Mexican too.

BARI: Ooh, I don't want to go on a total aside right now. My boyfriend in college for the first three years, his mother was Mexican and his father was black. And girl, I learned how to make tamales. I appreciated, like there was so much similarity. Like when we talked in our families, talked in terms of the differences and the hardships in terms of what you have to get through. And so I appreciated him that much more and vice versa. We couldn't get married because the lives we wanted were just not similar at all. But I appreciate him and I still talk to him today. We meet twice a year, that is our deal. We meet twice a year and have a cocktail because he's also a lawyer.

CHANTE:	Oh, wow.

BARI: Yeah. And his sister, his sister found me on LinkedIn and she was like, "I remember when you combed my hair out when I was in fifth grade." [Chuckles]

CHANTE:	Oh, wow.

BARI: Yeah. She's like, "You did this better than anybody else in my family did." And I was like, "Yeah, I know because they didn't really know how your hair was growing."

CHANTE:	Yeah. Well, I was raised by a Mexican mama. She knew how to do some black hair, I was just going to say that.

BARI: They didn't. But what I also appreciated is that they admitted that they didn't know. And not just that, but what that taught me later going through life is like this is a lot like industry - a lot of these folks don't admit what they don't know. So you make mistakes because you are not willing to sacrifice your ego to say, "I don't know this and I'm not going to know this and I'm not going to learn it." And these folks did.

CHANTE:	That's a big deal. I mean, that's the interesting thing. It's funny that we're just starting off going straight into the intersectionality and the culture stuff, but I think it's pretty relevant because now the work you're doing and the work I'm doing, the work that we're talking about on this show, right? It's something that I think is really relevant to talk about when we're thinking about technology and the people who are, even just the innovation and the technology spaces showing up and being your full self. And being your full self, depending on how you identify means that you're not going to be the expert on every single thing. And to basically admit that when you get an opportunity to, I think kind of saying it like sets a tone. It sets a great example. And those of us who have maybe had to live a little bit more intersectionality or more intersectionally are more comfortable, at least I can speak for myself. I'm very comfortable saying, "I'm coming at it from this angle because [inaudible] in the world and I think it's given me a competitive advantage going into those in spaces.

BARI: I think that's probably how I look at it too in the sense that I don't have an ego. Like, who am I? And honestly, I don't look at it just as like who am I because I'm not bill Gates or I'm not Beyonce. My thing is like who is anybody? We're all people. At the end of the day, you're all people. You are still sitting on a toilet. [Chuckles] You are still figuring out how do you put on one leg after the other. You're still trying to figure out like is your child potty trained appropriately? I'm nobody. And so I don't look, that's not how I was raised. Honestly, at the end of the day, that isn't how I was raised. And that may be different and that's something that you should consider. Like other people are not raised that way. They are raised to believe that they're superior and different and special and better. Nah, I wasn't. My mama was like, "This is what we do and this how you're doing it and here's how it goes."

CHANTE:	You were raised in Oakland?

BARI:Yes. I was literally born in Oakland, Kaiser. My children, all of my children born in that same Oakland, Kaiser.

CHANTE:	Wow.

BARI: Yeah. And my mom was an OUSD teacher and she also taught in Berkeley Unified for about the duration of her career, it was 40 years. So between Oakland and Berkeley, she taught there for 40 years. And so, when I tell you random, there will be people, I'm getting a muffin on a Saturday and somebody be like, "Are you Miss Hall's daughter? And I'm like, "Oh my God." I just want to get this muffin. Like what are you talking to me? And they're like, "Oh, you're Miss Hall's daughter." And I'm like, "Yes." But to me, that is just an example of like that is who I descend from. Like my mom left a mark on you. And the bigger part, which I always think is super funny is like now at this point, she has taught generations of people. So she has taught people who are parents and now they're grandparents. And I'm like, "Oh, are you that old? But you're not that old." She's like, "I don't think I'm that old." But that's the thing. My mother is like such an integral part of my life that I love that she is such a part of these other students' lives.

CHANTE:	Yeah, that's pretty cool. And I think it's a special thing, I'm not sure. I think Arty and Jacob, I think that they live places that they didn't grow up in, at least for me, too. It's a special thing when you get to come up in a city that you love and that you're proud to be in and then you can kind of see the marking of a legacy or several legacies of generations. So, I admire that in families when I get to see it in action.

BARI: Yeah. Both of my parents are from here. My dad is from North Richmond, which is super impoverished and is a food desert and is structured around what I would call environmental racism in the sense that it's surrounded by refineries. And so the fact that he doesn't even have asthma is like a miracle. And he met my mom. And my mom lived in Oakland and lived in this upper class area of Oakland. And that's a whole Romeo and Juliet story on its own. But you got married and great, so I'm the best decision that's born out of your bad decisions. Good for you. But it is very interesting to just even see that because you don't see that anymore because people are transplants. They don't understand the geography, they don't know the areas. They don't understand the significance of these places. And it's very interesting to see that, especially as a native to be like, "Oh my God." I remember the first time I saw a white girl jogging with a dog in West Oakland and I was like, "Oh, it was a rat."

CHANTE:	Wait a minute now.

BARI: [Crosstalk] This is a wrap. Literally, projects are right across the street and you're like, "Oh, I'm jogging with this dog." No. [Laughs]

CHANTE:	Speaking of gentrification, one of the things that have come up to me lately or come on my mind lately is this idea of tech gentrification. Not necessarily, "Oh, we got big tech in these areas." That's one thing. I'm talking about, like literally where we see digital spaces, virtual spaces that have been, really places where black people or people of color have gone and gathered. And then we see people extracting. Like for instance, Black Twitter where we see people extracting. Or like on Instagram for instance, where we see people extracting or we see that there are algorithms and things like that that have been [inaudible] for tech ethnic [inaudible]. You know what I mean? Betterment not for good. I know that that is something that you were hoping to talk about on the show today, thinking about AI and the unintended consequences.

BARI: Yeah, the big thing for me is really trying to understand and to advocate for those spaces and places. And the issue for me is I am somebody literally from and of born of this community. Like I am from Oakland. I was born in Oakland, I was raised in Oakland. I probably will die in Oakland if you leave it to my husband. So to me it is watching the Warriors leave, watching the Raiders leave. Like every single thing is you're leaving. Why are you leaving? What are we not giving you? And to me there's an interesting thing there where it's like you're telling this population that there's a deficit, that there's something about them that is not sufficient. But what is that? What's not sufficient about this population? What are we not giving you? What are we not showing you? What are we not providing? And that is so huge to me as somebody who lives here and was born here and raised here. I went to Berkeley because I didn't want to leave my community. And so, I went to Berkeley and I was a Raiders intern when they hosted the all-star game. And they were trash. Let me be very clear - trash!

CHANTE:	[Laughs] My uncle is going to listen to this and be very mad at us. He loved the Raiders.

BARI: No, no, they were trash. In the year 1999-2000 when I was there in the intern and we hosted, they were trash. And so the fact that you would leave a community that has held you down for 40 plus years, what are you not getting? What do you need? What can we give you? And part of me is like, I don't even want to ask this because I'm not a begging ass bitch. I'm not a begging person. If I'm in a bad relationship and we not working out, I don't ask that shit. Like, go. That's literally how I feel. But the reason why I asked for this type of community is like these are jobs. This is a community. This is hope. This is how we feel about you. And you're not addressing any of that. So what are you doing?

CHANTE:	This kind of goes back to that question somewhat, what you said your son was asking, like whose responsibility is it when you have this gentrification situation happening? Whose responsibility is it to address it, fix it, make it better?

BARI: Yeah, I don't know. And I will tell you honestly, I woke up this morning to do book edits at about 3:30 this morning. And by 5:00 in the morning, I was in my son's bed because it's super comfortable. And also because I didn't have answers. I don't have the answers. But for me that's the hard part is I don't have the answers for you. And I feel like my job, not just as a parent but as somebody who is from the town and reps the town, we should have the answers for you. And we don't and it sucks.

ARTY: The thing I'm hearing from you is this vantage point that I'm not used to ever hearing that is this center of roots. It's this standing at the center of the home tree of the community, all the branches in the community and seeing those roots in the connections to place, to family, to these people that you lift and support and live in this connected space together. And I think about the effects of like Twitter and being pulled into our phones in this virtual world also disconnects us from the tree, from our home tree, from each other that are around us. And then the generation that has been growing up and getting sucked into these worlds with their devices need a way to find their way back to the people that are right around them.

BARI: On your actual people, right.

ARTY: Yeah.

BARI: And that it's so hard for me. Oh, I'm getting emotional at the idea of it. And the reason why is I grew up here and so, my grandparents moved here in really after like -- I don't know how many of you watched Watchmen on HBO. But my grandparents, their families, they all moved after the Tulsa riots and they moved here. And so for me, it is very emotional because it's a thing where they're like, we don't feel like even we can build business and build empowerment and build a space where we can make money. It's not safe. And so, they left and they came to California. And so for me, that's a safe space that they thought that they built. And to see that not be the case even with me or see that with my son is very, very hard and I hate it. I don't know another word, I hate it. But it is something you should think about. Like how do you build black wealth? What does that look like? What are the steps? How do you foster that? How do you incubate it? How do you make sure it's protected? Because my grandmother, her family, they were from Tulsa and they thought that that's what they had there. And it didn't happen. And then the Tulsa riots happened and they moved to California. So what do you do? And I don't know the answer to that. I don't know that anybody has the right answer to that especially in this administration, right? Like what do you do? [Crosstalk] This is a whole conversation we could have because I'm a lawyer. And so like this entire weekend is for like lawyers Superbowl to me in terms of like, "Oh, this person said this," and, "Oh, he discounted this record?" So, what do we do? But there's nothing that is necessarily protected or confined. And so how do you deal with that? Facts are not facts anymore. And that is for me as an attorney is incredibly hard. I don't understand the concept of that even. Like how do you not have a situation where facts are not facts? That's crazy. That's crazy. Literally, you're crazy. So, why are we even having a conversation? Because these are the facts. And they were like, "Nope, they're not. It's different. We have alternative facts." What?

CHANTE:	So, from an illegal standpoint and from a technology standpoint where we're thinking about building the future and like architecting it, what do we stand to gain by building an algorithms that they're fact checked. The check for and basically try to have some type of [inaudible] around structural racism that we see built into law.

BARI: So one thing I always ask people, particularly when it deals with AI and machine learning, who fact checks the fact checkers? Who are those people? And if you cannot show me who they are and their credentials, I don't believe you. Now again, maybe I am contributing to facts aren't facts. But I really believe if you are not able to tell me who was fact checking the fact checkers, then you don't know what you're doing and you're not aware of what you're building and you don't care about what you're building and how you're building it. And that is a problem. So I need to know where are you getting your information? Have you gotten your information from a second source? Okay. No, you haven't. Okay, great. But who's fact checking the first source. Okay, you don't know? That's a problem. All of these things are issues. We need to make sure that we're building technology that is inclusive for everyone - for differently-abled people, for women, for people of minority coalitions. If you're not thinking about this and you are not really working towards this, then you're working against it. That's how I look it. You're working against it.

JACOB: I feel like one of the themes that we discussed on the show a lot that I think you're touching on is that often AI and machine learning is the people that build it are very good at making something that comes up with an answer that feels true and can make them a lot of money. But an answer is very different from a just or equitable answer or a one that is considerate of social side effects.

BARI: But I wouldn't say that that is unique to them though. That's most people. And the reason why I say that is like, most people, they don't know what they don't know. And so, I try very hard not to hold that against people. A lot of folks don't know what they don't know. And that's okay. The problem, when it actually becomes a problem, is when you know that you don't know what you don't know and you're cool with it. And you're like, "I'm going to roll with it." No., That is the moment when you need to say, "Hey, I need help." And people usually don't do that. And so, my issue with this is around understanding you're dealing with certain issues, algorithm, whatever. But those people have not said that they don't know what they don't know. And that's the problem. So now what they're trying to do is they're going to go back on Monday and do their work and they're going to build these algorithms into their work. That's an issue. And the reason why it's a huge issue, particularly to people like me, is you're not thinking about credit where they miss, you're not thinking about college missions. You're not thinking about how do we discern if this person is or isn't worthy of certain issues within the criminal justice system. This is a problem. And if you are not actively thinking about it, you're not going to fall for it. That is my bigger issue.

Literally, my son came home, I don't want to get upset about this, but it makes me so mad. But my son came home on Tuesday with a prompt that he had to write a paragraph to. And the prompt said, "Is it the job of your school or your parents to tell you how to deal with law enforcement?" And I'm just like, "This shouldn't even fucking happen. This shouldn't be a thing." And then two, "Hell no, you school kids." Yes, we pay them, but they can't tell you because it's a predominantly white school. So they cannot tell you the nuance of you being a brown, 5-foot tall, 9-year old black boy, how to deal with law enforcement. They can't tell you. So let me tell you. And I literally sat and gave him, which is a whole different thing. I had to do this for a boy scout troop that was predominantly black last year. I gave them instructions on how to deal with law enforcement. And it was literally me telling them, "Put your hands on the dash. And then after that when they asked you questions, narrate every single thing you do for them." And it was me telling my son who is nine, "Okay. Now, I'm going to take my left hand, I'm going to move it, I'm going to put it in my back pocket because that's where my license and registration are." Fuck that!

CHANTE:	I mean, that's what Philando did up in St. Paul.

BARI: And it didn't matter. He still got killed.

CHANTE:	Yeah, exactly. I used to live there. I have friends who are friends with him or who were friends with him. I think he worked in that school. Guess what? He was teaching kids the same thing. That was a thing he did.

BARI: I try very hard to not, I don't even know that I have a good answer for this. But it hurts. I don't want to do this. I really don't. This is my child and he is a child. He's nine. And the fact that I have to explain it to him and tell him to do this is hard because he doesn't know. But he has to know because I want him to live. And this is trash.

CHANTE:	Yeah.

BARI: I'm so sorry. I'm sorry.

CHANTE:	You don't need to apologize for it.

BARI: No, I am very professional.

CHANTE:	Hey, please don't apologize for the real and the rawness of it. I think that's sort of the interesting thing about a show like this is that we want to celebrate. We want to call out.

BARI: He can't control how tall he is. He can't control how tall his mom or dad. I'm 5'10".

CHANTE:	Oh, wow. 

BARI: My husband is 6'6". 

CHANTE:	Oh, yeah.

BARI: So he is nine years old, and he is five feet. And so I talk to him like he's 12 or 13. And he's not, clearly. And trust me, he definitely, if you ask him some shit, he is not. I don't want him to get stopped. And he's like, "What do I do?" And so, I had to give a tutorial. And even the fact that I had to give this tutorial last year to Boy Scouts, I had to give this tutorial last year to a troop of black Boy Scouts and said, "Here's what you do if you get stopped by a police. Put your hands on the dash, wait for whatever they say. And then you articulate and narrate every single movement that you make. Like, okay, so now I'm going to take my left hand, I'm going to put it in my left backhand pocket to get my wallet to give it to you." Like, this is fuck. Why do I have to tell you to do this so you don't get shot? This is bullshit.

CHANTE:	Yeah. I feel you, Bari because I have two boys and we live in Chicago. So, I'm terrified. I am legitimately terrified. My significant other, his family lives on the South side and he was telling me he's going to take the kids. I said, "For what? Hell, no. You're not taking our kids down to the South side." What's your plan? Like you are a target every single day. He's like, "Oh, you stop?" I said, "No, for real. Like you are a target. They do shoot people and kill them on the interstate. Innocent just like you, and they're not going to be caring if you have two babies in the back."

BARI: They don't care if you're on the South side or not.

CHANTE:	And so, the answer is no.

BARI: Exactly. And that's why I was like, I hate it that I had to do this particularly for this troop. But this was a predominantly black troop and I said, "This is what you have to do. Here's how you do it. Put your hands on the dash, don't ask questions. And then when they start asking, you say I'm going to take my left hand and put it in my back pocket and I'm going to take out my wallet at that time and I'm just going to give you my wallet. I'm not even going to take shit out. I'm just going to give it to you so you get what you need." But the fact that I even have to give instructions like this, it sucks.

CHANTE:	It does suck. It honestly sucks. It's not fair.

BARI:But I want my son to be alive.

CHANTE:	Totally.

BARI: And so, that's what I have to do.

CHANTE:	This is where it gets to be interesting, where it's the magic, like the gift that you bring is being a black woman.

BARI: But what does it mean though? What does it mean in moments like that? But what does it mean?

CHANTE:	So here's how I interpret it for myself and I'm listening to you tell the story. It's like it's our gift and our curse some days. We wake up and we're like, it's amazing to be black. It's amazing. Black culture is so dope. I mean, think about when all the major things that have happened in the history. A lot of black people have set that culture. And there's lots of things, lots of examples to kind of go off on this. But the point is that it's great until it's not, until it's your child that's being shot at or being aimed at. Also, this is what's our reality is today. If five to 10 years from now, it's going to be the AI algorithms that are shooting at your kids.

BARI: Yeah. But does that mean that they're going to be prepared armed for that?

CHANTE:	No. I mean, as it stands today, they're not.

BARI: That's what I mean. [Crosstalk] from a bunch of different standpoints. My grandparents, my dad's parents were sharecroppers with third grade education. They didn't know shit. Literally, they didn't know a God-damn thing. And I look at my husband's parents and his grandfather is President of Tuskegee for like 50 years, which is fantastic. But also, what is that getting us right now?

CHANTE:	Yeah. What does that privilege bring you when at the end of the day, the cop's, "You're black."

BARI: Thank you. If somebody stops you today, what do you get? And he doesn't know. So I'm like, "Okay, cool. We're good on that then. We agree." But my [inaudible] with this. It's like I'm telling you how to deal with the police, I don't know. Like what does that mean? Literally, what does it mean? I'm tired. Like, literally take me to the king. Truth is I'm tired.

CHANTE:	It's tiring. Some days are worse than others. I mean honestly, I have my moments where I'm just like, "I'm drained." I don't have any answer to everyone that's coming to me for the answers.

BARI: I'm not that mad about it, if I can see a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel. What I will say is like my mom, I was raised primarily by a single mother and she did everything she could. Even today she was like, "Oh, what do you have to do today?" And I told her, and she was like, "Oh, tell me about it." And I was like, "Girl, if you don't get to your [inaudible] class then leave me alone." But that's the thing. It's like there's somebody that pushes you and tells you there's a light. Where is the light here? That is the hard part for me is where is the light here? And the hard part with that in terms of being somebody who has been in and of that technology, I don't see the light. So where is it? So what do we do?

CHANTE:	This is where I think it really matters to have allies and accomplices who are not like us. Okay, Arty and Jacob, we want to hear because we want to know like you all are working on the tech. What can people like us do to make it more compelling for those who are building the future, building this technology that we make this more equitable and more accessible and more just for all people?

ARTY: I quit my day job in 2016 to be a social entrepreneur and to put all my energy and love and heart and care into trying to see, trying to connect to the heart of all the people. And because I have the privilege, I do such that I can do whatever I want all day. Really. I mean, I have the freedom to go and bootstrap my own business and to build anything that I want to build. So, what am I going to do with my [volts]? And I come at it from that perspective of there is a problem of inspiration. There's a problem of vision. There's a problem of creating a circle where we start all on the same side. We look toward the stars and go, "What type of world do we want?" Because these things that are happening right now are twofold and that we've got one system that is all amplify fear, amplify divisiveness, amplify these narratives of victims. "I'm a victim and it is my right to call you out and shame you and be cruel." And it amplifies like crazy on Twitter and it's an engine. I think of it as like a thermodynamics engine that this amplify fear basically amplifies all of these racial tension dynamics. And the fault is not the technology so much as the spirit of the people that is really getting twisted. The narratives that are getting twisted inside us and the technology is just a mirror of us. And I think we need to create space for a higher standard. I think we need to be all on the same side as the humanity to realize that we are all just people and we all have the basic things we need and want and things that are special and valuable and the things that are worth living for. And those things really don't cost a whole lot of money. I think we need to set a new precedent for what it means for creating well-being. Turn it into a community project where we all work together and come up with ideas and vision for how do solve these high leverage problems like reinventing education. Like our education system is just screwed up in so many ways. And if we took the problem of like, how do we help the humans to gain the skills they need to have freedom and choice and skills with emotional intelligence and cultural interaction. And like I think if we start focusing around the things that make us beautiful, our stars, our art, our admiring the beauty in all of our different cultures and come up with ways to look at software like reality construction. And that's essentially what we're doing with these platforms is we're building realities. And I think in this next generation, we need to take ownership of a higher calling where we're mixing this spiritual humanitarian kind of anchoring with this concept of home tree and roots and connecting to the people that are around us, of using our skills and capabilities of the people that are right around us to build up these families and children and support system. I think we need to go back to almost like we're trees, feeling our roots again.

BARI: It's basics.

ARTY: Yeah.

BARI: It's only like how do we go back to basics and make that work?

ARTY: Yeah.

BARI:	I totally hear you. For background, my mom was a teacher in Oakland Unified and with Berkeley also for 40 years. And so that is all she cares about is like, how do we serve these kids? Her thing was never about -- I remember when I first started working in a law firm, mom's like, "You make how much?" She was like, "What? How?" And I was like, "Girl, don't worry about it." She literally was like, "I don't understand." I was like, "It's not for you to understand." But that is the point is like that was her service and that was her mission. It's like, how do we serve these children? How can I serve these children? How can I give them what they deserve based off this amount of money a year? So I feel like you're onto something, but, and same thing I told her last year, I was like, "I think there needs to be a way to figure out how to subsidize that because it isn't enough. So what do we do? How do we do it?"

ARTY: Well, this is where a conversation got started yesterday. It was actually kind of beautiful because we had this amazing impromptu episode that happened when you didn't show up. And I feel like it was kind of meant to happen that way. But the thing that we came up with that we started talking about is, what if we set up an open space, focused around reinventing education as like a torch that we can all get around to figure out how do we do family roots using our localized skills and things we have to lift the next generation as a collaborative effort. And we combine our technology powers, our artistic creative powers. We mix things in that are super fun. Like Sam Aaron, who wrote Sonic PI, he's going around teaching little kids how to code with music. And there's this little girl who was like six years old. On her 6-year old birthday, she wanted to DJ for her birthday party. And I just thought that was the best thing ever. So she's learning how to DJ. And the thing is, there's no reason that this stuff can't be fun. Software is like magic. We can bring our crazy dreams and all of our artwork to life. And I think if we start with a paradigm of owning our creative powers combined, owning all of our skills and technology and go, "Okay, what if we set up an open space and a hackathon and a fundraiser and turn this into an event where we could start like an industry collaborative effort to genuinely figure out how to solve these problems?" And I think accessibility to apprenticeship-based style mentorship, I think is one of the biggest key problems to solve that if we can crack that nut, one has the opportunity to get everyone on the same side. We all have kids and families and we want our kids to be awesome and have a good happy life. Who doesn't want that as a human being? And if we start from that mindset of inclusive, set up the vision for an open space event, get sponsors and stuff to go and help put the thing on. I think that's where you start is by creating the space to do the thing.

BARI: I agree. What has been the hardest for me, not just in working with this organization but also others, is that they want people to be prepared to do things for other events. And it's hard because it's like, "Okay I can do this," but then this event is having this call at so-and-so o'clock and it may not jive with what you're doing. So the fact that you're thinking about that is key, is super key. Because I mean, we want to do everything we can. And I say that because my husband works for Google. And so he's like, "Okay, where can I throw my money because I have a budget. Like where can I throw money?" But the problem is like if he doesn't have somewhere he can throw money and it's cohesive, that becomes the issue. I'm throwing money wherever. Now, he don't like that either because he's like, "Okay, you throwing our money. So, can you stop throwing our money?" [Chuckles] But I'm like, "No, I'm throwing our money for a good reason." And he's like, "Still no."

ARTY: So as much as the current situation dynamic is destructive and scary in a lot of ways, I also see it as a huge catalyst for transformation for people having awakenings where they look at another human being and realize that there's another being inside and they're a being just like me. It's that experience, I think, of really seeing a mirror of yourself in someone else's eyes that cracks your heart open for life.

BARI: I think that isn't the issue. The issue is more along the lines of, I see that, you see that, he sees that. The issue around that is like when you're talking to organizations, that's not what they see. They see disorganization. And I hate that personally because I know and I've done this before, but that's what they see. They're like, "This is disorganized, so we don't want to support this anymore." And so, I want to mitigate that as much as I can because I know what you're doing, but I'm one person and nobody's listening to me. So, what does that look like on a broader scale?

ARTY: I think this is one of those things where I started down this road of having an idea and a vision in my head that I couldn't quite explain that I didn't quite have words for. But I'm like, "It's really great. I swear." And so, I've been doing keynotes and working on my stage material and trying to figure out how do I put this into some kind of words where people can reach where I am. Like make a stepping stone there to see this thing that I can't quite put into words yet. And as I've been on this road, I've been shifting to a place. This is also why I changed my name this year to Artemis Starr. I turned 40 this year, just had my birthday on 11/16. And for me, it was this deliberate decision of choosing my own name, of deciding who I wanted to be in the world and what I was going to live for. And I see it as a hat to wear. That's part of the reason, I mean, this is like my identity right now. On my head, almost like switching into a character that I want to play and learn how to become right. And part of that for me is...

BARI: I will tell you, you're very inspiring.

ARTY: Thank you.

BARI: Whether you know it or not, that is something I have been deliberating with myself for the last couple of months. And seeing you do it, make more comfortable thinking I can do it.

ARTY: So, I'm turning my house right now into sister's house and Dream Scale Company headquarters. And we're sort of shifting to a standpoint. I've had people that have just resonated as soul sisters with me in various times. And relationships have shifted and there's a lot of people that have been abandoned by their family that I've sort of like picked up. They didn't have family, and so I offered to be their roots. And what I realized as these various people I knew were kind of wandering around the world and struggling that there was this...

BARI: Hold up.

ARTY: Okay.

BARI: On that note, I can't even tell you how moving that is to me because I have struggled with that for the last six months. And hearing you say that, that's what I've been talking about and wanting to do and you've done it. I know, but I just -- no, don't do that.

Laughter]

BARI: But you. If nobody else will tell you this, I will tell you this today, you are killing it. Just know that that's what you're doing. You are inspiring other people who you may not even know that you're inspiring. Because I didn't know that I could even think about that or want to do that until I saw you do it. So please know that. So if you have nothing else today, sometimes I'd be like, "Ooh, girl, your own credit is bad." Then you have this today.

Laughter]

ARTY: I think we need to plan a little trip and crack open a bottle of wine and hang out.

CHANTE:	Jacob, are you going to jump in here?

JACOB: I was just thinking, she mentioned a few topics back about how she's not sure saying like it's not her son's job to handle all of that. And I guess the thing that entered my mind is like, it's not Bari's job either or it shouldn't have to be. It's my job in a different way in which, I mean, not in the sense of like, it's the job of the predominantly white school to teach her son because that could easily be a misinformed education. When my great grandparents came to this country, they came as Jewish immigrants. And somewhere along the way, I'm just considered white. I was given permission to enter the [inaudible]. I didn't ask to, but that really doesn't matter. And it just seems to me like one thing that I can do that not just anyone can do is I can talk to other people about me like, what does being white actually mean? Because I think when we talk about race and racism, I think there's a lot to talk about --

BARI: What is allyship? What does that mean? What does it entail? Who is included? What do you do?

JACOB: Yeah. Oh, there's this like really great podcast. It's called Seeing White, but I should put it in the show notes. The basic thesis of it is like what would happen if we actually turn the camera around or turn the lens around and say like, "If we want to talk about race, we also need to talk about what does it mean to be white?"

BARI: But nobody will have that conversation. They don't want to have that conversation unless we're doing like a Finding Forrester, the Michelle Pfeiffer school story. Nobody wants to talk about [inaudible] is that shit.

JACOB: Yeah. And it's not easy, right?

BARI: And I want to be clear, I don't think it's easy. There's a burden because you have to walk around and know that there is basically a ghost on your shoulder like, "Hey, did you know you didn't get here on your own merit? Did you know you didn't get here for...?" That's hard. But we don't talk about that part either. And I really, really, really, really amiss might be a completely different podcast, but I want to have that conversation.

ARTY: Looks like she lost her connection.

BARI: I'm back. Sorry about all that, but I'm here.

CHANTE:	I think we were having a good conversation. So, Jacob was mentioning that in response to some of the things, like the question you asked about who's responsibility is it? Is it the school's responsibility? Is it the parents' responsibility? Is it the community's responsibility?

BARI: Honestly, that was hard for me to answer. I knew he had to ask me and he also had to ask his dad. And it turned out, we both said both, but we said both in different ways. For me, I said both in the sense that they can give you the general kind of, "This is how you talk to police and this is what you do with them and this is what you say." And I said, "But here is the nuance they're not going to give you. And it's not because they don't want to." And I wanted to be clear on that point too because his school is very, very deferential to people of color. And I was like, "It's not that they don't want to, they just don't know. So I'm going to have to tell you how that works after that point." And he stopped and he listened and it breaks my heart. I don't want to have to have that conversation with a 9-year old. I just don't. But it's a 9-year old who was five feet tall. And so he is more than likely to get stopped. His classmates are four foot six, they're not going to get asked, but he will get stopped and asked. And I literally told him, I said, "This is what you do." And the fact that I have to tell my 9-year old this, it's a lot. I know I have to do it, but I feel like I shouldn't have to do it. And it sucks. It literally just sucks.

CHANTE:	It does suck.

BARI: I'm going to tell you everything I need to tell you from the standpoint of being an attorney, everything I can tell you that's legal for you to stay alive. Because what I would prefer is you come home to me even if you are limping versus you don't come home.

CHANTE:	Yeah, that's real.

BARI: But that sucks.

CHANTE:	It is like we shouldn't have to choose the lesser of the two.

BARI: I should not have to choose as a mother. Do I tell you what you need to do and what you need to say to stay alive versus if you say this stuff, you have a better chance to stay alive versus if you don't say this stuff, you may or may not be. No, but I don't have that choice.

CHANTE:	And he's young. I mean, nine years old are just, they're babies. They're little. It's a lot. I have taught young people because I have a nursing background and I have been a sex educator, so I've talked to young people for lots of other things.

BARI:But he doesn't get it to the most part. He's in fourth grade, he doesn't know. Now, I will say I have made him watch the debates in 2016. He watched both debates. He watched both conventions. He is very astute. So he knows why, but he still doesn't understand why. And that to me is the most hurtful part. I can't give you a good reason for that. I just can't. You saw a black president and then you saw a woman and he was like, "I want her." And he saw nothing wrong with the fact that -- like that's the other thing is kids are pure. He was like, "I don't understand why somebody wouldn't want her. She could do the job. She's done other jobs. What's wrong with y'all?" I was like, "It's not what's wrong with y'all? It's wrong with them."

CHANTE:	Right.

BARI: And that's the part he doesn't understand. And part of me is like, I don't want to do that. Like you need to learn that on your own. I want you to come to your own conclusions based off of your own experiences. Don't use my experiences as to why you've made life long decisions. And I hate that for him because he's such a pure child and he's so smart and he cares so much about people. And he so bothered by this. And I don't have the answers. And he literally said, he was like, "You're an attorney? Why ain't you got answers?" And I was like, "Ah, leave me alone."

CHANTE:	I think it takes a village to do these things right. I think where we made a mistake in the process of building the United States as we know, it was built in an echo chamber of privileged white men, able-bodied white men who could have, but they didn't. And they also didn't know what they didn't know. So, we had to take the things for what they were, the context for which the reality they were living and trying to build for themselves.

BARI: But I don't know, even in their wildest dreams, did they think of children who were nine years old and were five feet?

CHANTE:	They thought about their children only.

BARI: Right.

CHANTE:	I mean, I definitely have encountered people who -- I mean, the first time I went to college, I was flabbergasted because I went to school. Just like you, Bari, I went to school, I stayed local. And I went to the college, it was like not even two miles from my high school and that was pretty mixed socially, racially mixed high school. I'd go to the college and people were calling me colored. And I was like, "Excuse you, beg your pardon?" And the woman, the girl said to me, "Hey, I live in a town of 600 people. You are literally the first colored person." I said, "Honey, I'm not. Don't call me colored." [Crosstalk].

BARI: No ma'am, do you want to fight? If you want to fight, you can call me colored right now.

CHANTE:	Yeah. Thankfully, I had an amazing accomplice of a white woman of a teacher who happened to be a lesbian and she had been discriminated against predominantly her whole life. So she just was like, "Look, hell to the no, we're not doing this." But she stepped in. And one of the things that she taught me at that moment was, it's not Chante's burden to explain to you. So it takes an ally, it takes an accomplice, which is where I was going with that conversation with asking somebody like Jacob. And he was explaining, it's his responsibility. He felt that. I think the thing is how do we get more white men with privilege because let's face it, they're the ones in the power of this country.

BARI: That's why I always say I don't like the word diversity. And the reason why is because when you hear the word diversity, particularly white men, their eyes glaze over. It's like, "Oh, this isn't about me. This isn't for me." But when you say inclusion, everybody has a story when they have been excluded from something, whether it's the kickball team or you didn't get included on that work, whatever. Everybody has an exclusion story. Everybody does not have a diversity story. And so, I don't love the word diversity personally. And I'm very clear about that. I like the word inclusion. So, how do we make that more prominent and make that something that is holistic and part of people's stories?

CHANTE:	Touche. I think one of the other things that I will say just about that real quick, and I would love to hear Jacob say something about this. In my company, The Darkest Horse, we talk about diversity being the lagging metric and never the leading metric because you don't go in say, "Oh, I'm going to make a cake for diversity." Like, I'm not going to make a banana pudding with banana pudding. You make it with all the ingredients and that comes out to be banana pudding. And so, it takes special conditions and all that stuff, which is what I would call inclusion and accessibility and equity. And then things like diversity when you get things like belonging because you did it with love and with these parameters. But I think to your point about people saying, when we start to say like, "Oh, what's your diversity story?" People are like, "Ah, that just feels exclusive."

BARI: And that's just my personal opinion on that. Other people might really like the word diversity. And I don't hate them on that. I'm just saying for me personally I don't because it makes people's eyes glaze over and it makes them feel excluded. And the first thing I think is like, but we need to draw more people in. So that word doesn't do it. And so when you talk about inclusion and then you get people talk about when they were like, "Oh, I didn't get chosen for the kickball team." Okay, so let's talk about that. How did that make you feel? Because when you talk about how people feel, that's when you get somewhere. And that is what I care about. If I talk about how you feel and then how does that relate to how minorities feel and how does that relate to a workplace, now we're going somewhere. But prior to that, it's just a word, diversity that your eyes glaze over because you're like, "Oh, that doesn't apply to me."

ARTY: I'm thinking about it now. Inclusion has a verb, has action, like something you can actively do to go and do including sorts of [crosstalk].

BARI: Yeah, it makes you want to go do something [crosstalk]. I don't know about you. I am a girl from East Oakland, so when I hear a word and you get me a verb, I'm about it. I'm doing it. Period.

JACOB: I always laugh when an individual is referred to as diverse because...

BARI: It's bullshit.

JACOB: Yeah [Laughs]. What I always read that as is like they're the person that is checking the box.

BARI: Exactly.

JACOB: You can have a diverse workplace because you compare everyone on the team and sort of measure that they have diversity across different axes and have experiences in class and race and gender. But yeah, when you call an individual diverse, you're showing your cards to me.

BARI: Yeah. And to me, I look at that stuff even, it's like how are you valuing it? How do you value it? And if you see that, okay, now people are putting it into different boxes and they want to have a holistic viewpoint, at least that's what they say when they check these boxes. But you're still not really checking the boxes. What are you doing? Who are you doing it for? And again, when I tell you I am a girl from your cell phone, I will call you on your shit. I'm like , "What are you doing and why? And for who?

CHANTE:	Yeah, for who? For what?

BARI: I don't have a problem with that.

CHANTE:	Oh, it's deep.

BARI: Very deep and people, they don't acknowledge that part of it. It's like they think if you check -- so this is my issue. I will say when I joined Facebook, the biggest, biggest issue I had, they gave money to Black Girls Code and it was the same year that prints I guess was the essence and they gave all this money and they just gave the money and they walked away. And I came back six months later like, "Hey, whatever happened to these people you gave this money for and like what happened to this cohort?" They didn't have any information. And I was like, "What the fuck do you mean you don't have any information?" And they were like, "Oh, we didn't track it." "What the fuck do you mean you didn't track it? Your job is, you should have metrics. You don't have any." I am a lawyer, so I literally could give a fuck about a metric, but I'm telling you, you don't have a metric. You don't have a metric. And they were like, "No, we don't." And I said, "Oh, okay, bye." You don't care about this. Like let's just be clear. Say you don't care about this and let's go. It's faster.

CHANTE:	Yeah. That's not the PC thing to do. Right. So they don't do it. But at the end of the day, what it really came down to is the people who had the power and the privilege did not care. Or in seeing the error of their own ways, which is still a problem either way. [Crosstalk]

BARI: Somebody who sees this on the front line, like this pisses me off. Because first off, you're creating a program that doesn't have metrics, which is like, why? That's number one. [Crosstalk].

CHANTE:	Why are you spending money that you're not [crosstalk].

BARI: Just say we're going to throw money at some shit and then we're going to walk away. That's fast. That's easier. But you literally created a program with metrics. You are not tracking the metrics. You don't know what happened to the money. You don't know what happened to cohort. Get the fuck outta here. Stop wasting all of our time.

CHANTE:	Well, for a company that knows how to track some analytics, I find it hard to believe that nobody was tracking anything. So it wasn't that they didn't know how to track [crosstalk]. You do track what you value. I mean, look, I track my check.

BARI: Thank you. The whole point is like, you don't think this is valuable so you don't want to track it. So let's say that and go home. I'm not here to bullshit. You tell me whatever. I don't care. I mean, I like it. And you may tell me this and I may cuss you out when you say it, but I'm still going to be like, okay, cool, you said it and now we're done. But you are doing all of this and you don't actually care. And if you don't care, walk away and let people who care actually do the work. I have such a fundamental problem with the idea of people throwing money at something that they don't even care about. Like go the fuck away. Literally, go the fuck away.

CHANTE:	Right. And so, throwing money at something is not the answer. But the thing is we talked a lot about, in the inclusion work I do, it's like taking space and making space. In this instance, [crosstalk].

BARI: And they're doing neither.

CHANTE:	They were taking up the space because move out of the way.

BARI: Exactly. But they're doing neither. So you're taking up the space, but you're also not making the space.

CHANTE:	Yeah.

BARI: So get the fuck out the way. Just move.

CHANTE:	Yeah. We got to find a way to do away with big conglomerates that are dominating the tech world.

BARI: I had to have this whole conversation with my mom when I left Facebook. But she was like, "Why would you leave Facebook. That's such a good company." And I was like, "This is exactly why. Because they are taking up space and not making space. And in the part of them taking up space, it's so that they can control the narrative and conversation. And I'm not about that life. If you really do a shit, get out the fuck my way. Period.

CHANTE:	From your mouth to their ears.

BARI: Literally. I'm some ludicrous. Move bitch.

CHANTE:	[Laughs]

BARI: My mom is a boomer. But she was like, "But if you say this, are you going to be in trouble?" And I hear that. I get it and I appreciate that she was worried about it. And I said, "I don't care. That's the difference between where I am right now and where you are. I don't care. Like you always told me it's fine to be the first." Well, it's not fine, but...And she always said it's fine to be the first but make sure you're not the last.

CHANTE:	Ooh, that's beautiful quote.

BARI: And I said, "I'm doing all the shit I can to not be the last and you asking me right now about some shit that will make me the last." And she was like, but are you going to be in trouble? Are you going to be okay?" And I was like, "It doesn't fucking matter at this point. This is where I am and this is what I care about." 

CHANTE:	t the end of the day, going back to what Arty was saying, sometimes you do have to strip down the identity in what you had and build a new one and stand for something.

BARI: I told her, I was like, "What did you think you raised? You didn't raise a timid person. And so if you thought you did, surprise!" But like, "No, you told me to stand up. You are the person that I have watched do black history month in April because just on principle, you didn't want to do it in February. Like what did you think was going to happen? Who am I?" And she's like, "I guess that's fair." I was like, "Yeah, it's very fair." So no, I'm not doing whatever somebody else tells me to do. I wasn't raised that way, literally. And if you're not comfortable with that, you should probably talk to your own therapist. But yeah, I literally was not raised to be that person.

CHANTE:	We're going to definitely have to have you come back to do a part two.

BARI: Oh my God. [Crosstalk]

CHANTE:	Mom's gotta be here for the next call. So we're doing that. I had to jump in. I hate to cut this beautiful, amazing conversation, but I have to jump in and I want to make sure that we'd go around and give some reflections.

ARTY:So you want to do yours first so you can opt out or leave early?

CHANTE:	I will. I will say this: Bari, you are the real deal. I've been following you and I'll open your Twitter and LinkedIn and even sometimes Facebook and I just have like, I admired you and the work you've been doing. And just to get on here today and hear you be so real and so raw and to come from a heartfelt place means everything to me. And I think, the world is changed by a few people. It's not a whole lot of people. When we think about history, it takes a few, not a whole entire nation all the time. So I just want to say keep fighting the fight. I think this is the beginning of something great. I want to continue the conversation and you taught me a lot. Just getting on here and talking and being real is valuable. So, thank you so much.

BARI: Thank you. I don't even know what to say to that. Honestly, like you shouldn't even have me next time. Just take Linda, whatever. No, she, she will give you some real, real stories because she's retired at this point so she can talk. And she saw OUSD and she's a Berkeley Unified and she was one of a few black teachers trying to do what she was doing. So yeah, it might be more useful to have her than me because she can tell you.

CHANTE:	I feel you there.

BARI:But I appreciate that because I really feel like I am, I wouldn't even say my ancestors' wildest dreams. I am my mom's wildest dreams. And so talking to her, she'll tell you the real, real because that's some stuff she can tell you now that she couldn't. I heard it when I was like eating dinner in like ninth grade, but she can tell you for real.

CHANTE:	Well hey, they're more interested. Let's set it up. But I appreciate that.

BARI: Of course. Thank you.

ARTY: You want to go, Jacob?

JACOB: Yeah, I was just thinking about how -- my son's only two, but I want him to know that should he ever have an encounter with the police, I want him to know that that encounter will be fueled by his race as well. And fortunately, he won't have to be scared by that, but I want him to know, I want him to be at least be troubled by that fact due to that diversity. So yeah, that's just what I was thinking about.

ARTY: I think this is probably the most intense, episode I've been on in a while. I mean. In a good way. There are some correlating threads that stand out to me. One, these multigenerational roots. You talked about how, even just now that you are sort of a set of dreams that was passed down through generations, in a way, of becoming your own being, of the being raised to stand up and be proud of you to own your voice, to say what you think, to be your authentic you. At the same time as you be a tree, you be roots for the people around you in your community and you see from this perspective of social grounding. And I think of all things that has been lost in the world right now as we've gotten absorbed in this digital space is this loss of grounding, this loss of our roots, that your vantage point that you see from is what needs an amplifier right now really, is getting back to that. And so, that's kind of the thought that's on my mind right now is that you represent a certain meaning to me of what it means to get back to connection and home and our center tree and roots.

BARI: I think that's a great message too, especially considering everyone's going to go home for Thanksgiving or be around people for Thanksgiving and how you relate to them. What do you talk to them about? What are the things that you connect to? And it doesn't have to be contentious conversations where like, "Hey, I'm talking about this." What do you connect to? Who do you connect to? I think the biggest thing for me is my husband. We went to a memorial service on Tuesday. And what was crazy is like this man was such a fantastic honorable man. He has a memorial service at Chase Center on Monday. And then they had a smaller service on Tuesday for his family and friends. And even though we were like, "What the hell?" Because [inaudible] Franklin popped up and did a five song concert. We were like, "What?" But just thinking about like to me, I looked at it from the standpoint of 'Oh my God, I understand completely what this man's sons are going through'. Like if someone did this and my Ma, I wouldn't know what to say. Not because she's not awesome, but I know what my mom is to me. I don't know what she is to other people. And so, it is really just kind of sitting and thinking about that in the standpoint of like who are you and who are you to other people and what would you want other people to say about you and how does that resonate with other people? It's very easy in my sense because my mom was a teacher, so I know her students would say X, Y, and Z and this is how they feel and blah, blah, blah. But when you're not, in my case especially, how do you want that to look and feel and how do you relate that to other people and what do you take from that? Literally take that and marinate that for Thanksgiving. It's like, what am I thankful for? Who am I thankful for? Nobody asked me that, but I'm telling you I'm not thankful for my [inaudible]. But what I am thankful for in that response is like I know what I'm not thankful for. I know who I do want my kids to emulate. I know what I am thankful for in terms of what gets done around my home and who does it and how it's done and who my kids look up to and who they love. Like really kind of take that in. That's what we took from it. So if there's anything I can impart to you, it would be that, what are you thankful for? And really, really be thankful for this week because it could not be there tomorrow. And that sucks to say, but like literally we were at Afro Tech and we watched Bernard give this talk and he literally went home, ate dinner and died, which is crazy because we saw him at Fast Company at a conference earlier that week. And then we were at Afro Tech at home and then he literally went home and ate dinner and died. So if you have the chance, don't take it for granted. Sorry, I hope I'm not morbid.

ARTY: Not at all. I mean I think it's the finiteness of things that makes them so precious. It's that we don't have forever. It's that we have the beauty of being alive [crosstalk]. And so, I think part of that is when we pour time, when we pour our hearts into a craft, into making a gift, into creating happiness for someone else, all of these sorts of things, it's a way to also get in touch with our gratitude within ourselves of just like, "Wow, I'm really thankful for these awesome people and experiences I got to have. And how can I return a little joy in their lives? How can I create a little joy for my mom?" So like my mom for example, I grew up and I ran away. I grew up in Oregon and then when I turned 18 and graduated high school, I packed up my car and drove off to California. It wasn't until I got older, because my mom always wanted to connect with me and stuff, but it was like this overbearingness that I wanted to get away from. And then there was like this point in time that happened where just various things happened in my life that led me to seeing my mom, like really seeing the echo of my mom and myself and realizing what it was that she wanted and needed in connection to me and thinking about how I could give that to her. And so now, I have my mom going and taking pictures of little flowers and things when she's going for walks and sending me pictures and stuff every day. And she's so happy now running around taking all these little pictures and things to share with me. And so, I spent time finding ways to give her little things that she can do to feel connected to me and give her that feeling of connection in ways that are sustainable.

BARI: That was hard. One thing I tried to do, I think I realized it maybe a year or so ago. I did a whole Facebook post about it and I was like, "Adulting is hard." And also it sucks. I didn't sign up for this. I don't want to feel sad. I wanted to do this. But it is what it is. One thing that I said in my post -- my mom is a non-Facebook, she's not on anything. But I said it made me give my parents more grace because I understood that what they were trying to do wasn't necessarily easy and they were doing it because they had to. And once you realize you have to do something, that's a completely different proposition than if you want to. And so they had to do something. And adulting, parenting, figuring out who's going to pay for what, how is it going to work, how we do this, it's hard. It's not fun. It's not easy, especially if you're not with that person anymore. Like you really would rather this person like die in a fire. I don't even know how my parents made it through me being alive because my mom, literally my mom, I feel like my mom's a saint. And I say that and that's why I was like, "If you want to have somebody else on, have her." Don't even put me on. She was a teacher for 40 years in public school and she divorced somebody and literally left and packed all her bags and took only the stuff that she could take because they were divorced and they had a prenup. And my dad was a sports agent and she was like, I would rather leave everything I have in this moment than try to work some shit out with you because it's not worth that. So, bye. And I have so much respect for that. It was very, very hard. But she was like, "I have self-respect and I'm not doing this." So, people who are able to do those types of things, to me are mentors because I don't know. As strong as I am, I don't know if I could do that. Honestly, I don't know. My husband can come to me today and be like, "Hey, did you know I have twins from this side chick from Minnesota?" And I'd be like, "Oh damn, are you paying child support? Let's figure this out because I don't know if I'm ready to leave." Yeah, I wouldn't say I wouldn't leave. But I don't know if I have a plan to leave. But mom was like, "Nope, I don't care. Bye." And that is a whole different proposition where you're like...She's fantastic and she is literally the grandma that's here three days a week. My kids are like, "Grandma! Grandma! Grandma!" Okay, whatever, don't eat then tonight. But yeah, that is a whole different level of resilience and strength that I don't know I personally am equipped for in this moment. I could probably get there. But today, right now at this moment, at Friday, at 11:00 AM? No, I don't have it. Maybe call me in 10 minutes, I might have it, but not right now. But mom is a shit. So if you want another guest --

ARTY: I'm looking forward to it. That sounds wonderful. All right, so we will have to hook that up so our listeners can look forward to another really wonderful episode here, and you can kind of maybe make some ties into some of the things as they come up too. That'd be a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to it. So this was really great. Thank you again, and this has been such a wonderful episode, and I'm looking forward to connecting to you.