JAMEY: Hello everyone and welcome to Episode 153 of Greater Than Code. I am one of your panelists, Jamey Hampton. And I'm here with my friend, Jacob Stoebel.

JACOB: Hello. And I'm here with my friend, Coraline Ada Ehmke.

CORALINE: Are we friends? We are friends now. That's so cool.

JACOB: I hope so.

CORALINE: This is my first time being on the podcast with you, Jacob. So I'm super excited.

JACOB: Thank you.

CORALINE: I'm also super excited about our guest. A dear friend of mine, Mannah Kallon. He's a former chef and educator that turned his deep love for hip hop, philosophy, and Street Fighter into a career as a software engineer in the Bay Area. Mannah, I am so pleased to have you on the show. Welcome, my friend.

MANNAH: It's fantastic to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.

CORALINE: What is your superpower and how did you develop it? And I hope it's not just Street Fighter.

MANNAH: I wish it was Street Fighter. Unfortunately, I'm a bit out of practice right now. I think that my superpower, oddly enough, is I am incredibly comfortable in my own skin.

CORALINE: That's an amazing thing to say in that it's like to me almost unimaginable. Have you always been comfortable in your own skin or was it something that you had to work at and come to?

MANNAH: Absolutely not. I think that being yourself is one of the hardest things that you can do. Luckily, you have your entire life to practice. For me, it kind of started when I was a kid and there was this time in a moment where my brother and I were playing with some friends and we're just hanging out. My brother's riding his bike and one of the kids out of the blue says to him, "I'm smarter than you." And without hesitation my brother just turned to him, said, "So?" And kept moving on. And I guess that just stuck with me and like that was the model. It took many, many years after that to actually become comfortable and I think that that is a result of I am a New Yorker who transplanted to the Bay Area. Having the opportunity to assess my identity in a new culture really helped me form a more solid sense of self. And I am really glad that I have gotten to that place. Let's go back a little bit. Being a New Yorker who transplanted to the Bay Area gave me an opportunity to really evaluate myself in a new culture. It was a lot of work and I'm sure we're going to talk a lot about that on this podcast, but it's something I'm really proud of.

CORALINE: So you think it was the move, that the move was significant to your sense of self?

MANNAH: I think that the deep level philosophy kind of permeates all the things that I do. I think that what a philosopher is, is someone who is willing to not only ask questions but challenge assumptions. And moving put me in a situation where I was presented with brand new situations. And through those situations, I was able to evaluate myself and come to an understanding of who I am as a person. I feel like I've grown more in the last three years than I have in the previous -- I am not going to give away my age, but a lot more than three. And I think that one of the more recent ones that really kind of changed the way I saw the world was I was speaking at a company event and I quoted Beyonce from her song Formation, she says, you know you are that 'B' word when you cause all that conversation. I did not use the 'B' word, I actually used the word and I didn't think anything of it. I was saying a quote and I thought it was appropriate. But someone else came up to me and said to me, "I understand what you were doing, but like that word is hurtful for me." And that was an opportunity to really evaluate, to take stock and evaluate how that person might have felt to really put myself in someone else's shoes. And it was a fantastic conversation where we talked about why that word had the impact it did. And we both left with a deeper understanding of her unique perspectives. I would like to think like a deeper friendship. It was literally one of the best conversations I can remember. And at the same time, it absolutely broke my heart. The reason why was I reflect on this conversation for quite a while. I talked to some people directly after. I followed up because I was really replaying it. And the conversation was an opportunity for two people to talk with and kind of come to an understanding, and I realized that I don't feel like I would get the same consideration. And that was a deeper view for me that really pushed me to think about how I move around the world and what are the things that are important to me.

JAMEY: What do you mean when you say that you don't think you would get the same consideration?

MANNAH: I am so glad you asked. I don't think I would get the same consideration because I was on the opposite side of that same sort of interaction where someone had said something to me that I thought was inappropriate and this has been a person who had repeatedly done things like this or said things like this. And I had approached them multiple times. This third or fourth time, I went to my HR Department at my company and I was like, "Hey, this has been happening. I really want this person to understand that this is not okay." And behind the scenes and eventually to my face, there was a sentiment that we don't believe you. And that was incredibly painful because this is a situation where I didn't call the person out publicly, I never used their name, but it would be an opportunity for me to sit down with someone and like say, "Hey, this is why this isn't okay." And I felt like I went through the right channels to do that but the response that I got was the Shaggy defense. It was like, "It wasn't me." And that lack of consideration was also another seminal moment in kind of understanding where you are in the world.

CORALINE: I understand how painful it can be when someone says they don't believe you. And I know that for me that makes me question the reality of what I've experienced at a certain level. It makes me wonder like, "Am I being too sensitive? Am I seeing discrimination where there is no discrimination? Should I be paying more attention to the person's intent and absorb the impact of what happened." Did you have any moments of self doubt when you were faced with someone saying that they didn't believe you?

MANNAH: Yeah, absolutely. Less of self doubt. There's a quote from someone, Simone de Beauvoir, "We described the world from our own point of view which we confuse with absolute truth," and I think it's important. There are multiple points of view. I can only speak to how my understanding of the situation and how I felt. I don't doubt those things. And also, I didn't have any malicious intent or I didn't intend to profit in any way from the situation. I thought that this would be a learning opportunity and I look for those learning opportunities more so than self doubt. The bottom line is that's the reason I wanted to have a conversation. I think that a lot of the issues that we do in terms of identity can be addressed with conversation. And when we cut off that opportunity for conversation, we really miss out on opportunities to, again, learn from each other. But deeper than self doubt, it showed an expectation. I think that in this country, we deal with power dynamics all the time. An example I can think of from the recent news was the brother of 26-year old Botham Jean. He was shot and killed in his apartment by a police officer in Dallas. And after the officer was convicted, his brother went up, gave her a hug and forgave her. And I wonder if the roles were reversed. If the officer who's a white woman, if she was murdered in her apartment by a young black man, would her brother do the same? And how did those actions kind of reflect our collective understanding of our individual places and culture? I'm sorry if this is going to be kind of heavy...

JAMEY: No, don't apologize.

[Crosstalk]

MANNAH: Absolutely.

JACOB: I'm curious, it sounds like you strike me as a very empathetic person -- I can never say that word right. Would you say that any of these experiences that you shared, they say that they've made you more empathetic at work or just in life generally?

MANNAH: I think that the word we often use is empathy and being able to see things from another person's perspective. I think that I can do the work that I do because I go out of my way to kind of see things from another perspective. I think that it's important to have a conscientious objector in every conversation even if you had conversations in your own head. Again, like I said, we only have our vantage to see the world through. So, we'd be doing ourselves an enormous disservice if we don't take the time to consider alternatives. Whether or not we agree with them, there's an incredible power in really exploring ideas that we may hold dear. I'm going to go back to philosophy. Part of being a philosophy major in college is people ask you who your favorite philosopher is. And my answer is the answer that I think every philosopher major should have is myself. And the deepest tenet that I had is I hold no idea so deeply that I won't abandon it in favor of a better one. And I think, again, going back to my being comfortable with who I am, it is because I'm able to reflect. This is not to say like I am some sort of perfect person. I make mistakes all the time. I do things that I wish I didn't, but I can understand how I got there and I can apologize and I can move forward and try not to do those things again because I'm not defensive. We see this a lot in politics where people are so entrenched in a way of thinking that they don't have the ability to consider an alternative or consider an alternative viewpoint. And we end up being incredibly tribal where we form these groups around ideas where we've abandoned kind of the truth has lost a bit of its meaning and what is being said becomes less important than who is saying or who it's being said about. That's another thing that I had to come to terms with, especially by going to an HR department and saying, "Hey, this was my experience." I had to know that retaliation is a thing. And speaking up in that way puts you in a position where you're in danger in a lot of ways.

We see it again in politics with the current situation, the impeachment whistleblower, there are forces that are trying to change the narrative from the report that the whistleblower said and trying to discredit the whistleblower. We saw during the Kavanaugh investigation where they went after this respected law professor and they tried to discredit her for speaking out. And that was very like top of mind to me. It has been since the incident where if they're going to go after a law professor, they're going to have no problem going after my nonconforming ass. And again, it goes back to this power dynamic where, I stopped going to the kind of the company's social events. I stopped doing that because if someone says something about me, I don't have that same recourse where I feel like I can defend myself. This is another situation where a powerful in-group says something and I don't feel like I have the power to respond. I think that the debt power kind of manifests itself.

I recently read an article by Rowena Chiu and it was really powerful. It was an account of how a Hollywood producer sexually assaulted her and how the power balances of gender, race, seniority, and wealth kind of played into her being silent for over two decades. And this plays out in a lot of ways. Power is the ability to control the narrative. In Rowena's article, she talks about how she was afraid to tell her story. So, the Hollywood producer was able to drive a narrative of what actually happened. In other situations, the powers that be can overwrite your story. I saw this with the Colin Kaepernick situation where NFL players had decided to protest racial injustice and police brutality, but the conversation somehow shifted -- not somehow, very intentionally shifted to being anti-American or being anti-[inaudible]. They completely overrode the intent of those actions. And another way is some people don't even get the opportunity to tell their stories. We see this all the time where people, with rumors. People can start a rumor and we don't take the opportunity to say, "Okay, let's find out what happened." This isn't a situation where it's guilty until proven innocent, even if it's a situation where someone says something and the other party is just guilty. And again, I think that there's so much that can be gained where if we could just take the time to find out what's going on or ask some questions and be conscientious objectors, allow ourselves that opportunity, there is so much that can be gained.

CORALINE: I think my first impulse was like, there's strength in numbers if enough people step up to tell the truth, the truth will out. But I realized that's not even true. We've seen cases where there are dozens of people coming forward with someone's wrongdoing and still they don't gain control of the narrative. There isn't safety in numbers even.

MANNAH: Yeah. I don't think that there is safety in numbers. I think that there are a lot of ways where you can be powerful. One of the ways is numbers, but there are a lot of other ways that kind of can override that. And a lot of the time, you don't have numbers. A lot of situations are one-on-one. He said - she said. And there is not an opportunity to form a consensus. It becomes the responsibility of the people who hear about it. This is not a judgment on who did what but to find out more information and to understand the context in which these situations unfold.

JAMEY: I have a question that I think I'm having a little bit of trouble putting words around it, but I'm going to do my best. You were talking about the value and seeing things from a different perspective and not holding your beliefs so strongly that you can't see other sides of it, which I think, I agree with you, is really valuable. But I wonder how you reconcile that personally with this trend we've seen happening, I think, of people treating, to see both sides. We can see both sides of this issue of whether someone should have rights or whether we should treat people equally kind of thing. And obviously, there's nuance in between these and I'm wondering how you personally reconcile the idea of I want to give all viewpoints, wait and think about them with viewpoints that maybe seem so invalid that it's not worth treating them to see both sides. I guess, again, I was having trouble kind of putting words around this question. Did you understand where I'm coming from?

MANNAH: Yeah. What I'm hearing you say is like what happens when you come across a viewpoint that you don't think has merit.

JAMEY: Yes. How do you deal with that?

MANNAH: I think that to consider a viewpoint isn't to agree with it. Yeah, I'm not going to use a horrendous example, but you can understand where someone is coming from without agreeing with them completely. And I think that it takes practice, but more important than a viewpoint, sometimes it is how did this viewpoint manifest? What are the origins of how someone got to a point where they're willing to express themselves in such a way? It sounds counterintuitive, but it is healthy to have a level of -- Jacob, to use your word -- empathy for your enemies where you don't agree with them. You might vehemently oppose them, but you understand where you're coming from. Because ultimately, I would like to think that the goal is to come to some sort of resolution and ideally bring someone along to a more, I'm going to use a very weighted word, but a more enlightened way of thinking. But that's not to say -- yeah, I'll leave it at that.

JAMEY: So I think what I'm understanding is that when you're talking about seeing a different perspective, it doesn't necessarily mean to you like seeing in what ways this viewpoint necessarily has value, but seeing in what ways someone came to feel this way about something.

MANNAH: Exactly.

JAMEY: That's really interesting.

JACOB: And you don't have to assign value to it either.

MANNAH: Yeah. I think that when we start to assign value, we do kind of cut ourselves off. We start to make associations when we assign value. Like, "Hey, so-and-so is a good person, so therefore they probably didn't do that." That or if you can step back from assigning value to individuals or situations, you can look at them more academically dispassionately and get some real understandings rather than relying on heuristics of assigning the values that then translate into expectations.

CORALINE: As we speak, the Supreme Court is deliberating on a number of cases that will determine whether, for example, me as a trans woman can be fired for being trans, and I have been even in a state with those protections, there is a wave of anti-trans propaganda and sentiment that we've seen spike over the past three years. And I know that I personally struggle with what you're talking about, Mannah. I struggle to see the value in understanding why people who want to see transgender people removed from public life think the way they do. Why should I do that? What's the benefit to me for trying to understand a position that, as far as I can tell, stems from pure hatred.

MANNAH: I'm really glad you brought up this example, and thank you for all you're doing in that fight. My response to that is never embrace hatred. Going down the path of hatred is and that's exactly what I would call the lack of protections for trans people or for any people, I would call that completely derived from hatred. So I would vehemently oppose any laws or any action that would make that more possible. Where I think that there is an opportunity, I would say that that hatred is a symptom of something else. And I would want to understand where it comes from to more directly address the root. I understand how the backhand of discrimination, you can focus on the action or maybe even you can focus on the person. But these problems are much more often systemic and sometimes we can lose vision of the forest because of the trees if we focus on a certain element. As painful as that is. That being said, step one would be to address the legal situation where no this is not okay. But then there is a deeper step two that, how did we get here? How did we get to be a nation of people who -- I memorized this quote because it's so important. We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal and that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights. Among those are life liberty in the pursuit of happiness. That's the second line from the Declaration of Independence, the literal foundation of our country. And those words were written by a slave owner, most likely with a slave in the room. So, we're in a place where we are comfortable saying certain things and acting a different way. How did we get here and how do we allow that to continue? And when we start to break down those explanations, I think that we can address by deeper injustice than the injustices that we might be experiencing on a daily basis. Please don't think that considering an alternative in any means implies justification. It is simply taking mental space to go a bit deeper to get a more full understanding of situations.

JAMEY: I'm thinking about it in terms of self prevention in a way to, perhaps if I can understand the reasons that have caused someone to feel hatred for me, I could identify what root causes have I experienced in my life that I don't want to cause me to have hatred for somebody else for a different reason. Does that make sense?

MANNAH: I think that is certainly a part of it. You don't want to replicate behavior, you don't like seeing it in the rest of the world. But I think that there's also a more practical aspect where it's like, what are the origins of these thoughts? And how are these thoughts being propagated? Let's say that there was -- I'm going to use the Ku Klux Klan. The Ku Klux Klan, a whole bunch of racist, we don't need to go into. How did the Ku Klux Klan start and what were the situations that led up to it? And then, how do we stop those things from happening? How did the second world war, how did come about? How did ISIS get formed? Like how do we not only deal with the situation du jour, but kind of attack the root of some of these situations?

JAMEY: How do you not get overwhelmed when you think about it like that though? Because when I think about dealing with one person that was shaded in me in my life, even that can feel overwhelming. And the idea of -- I mean, I totally get this. I want to go to the root of it and that's how you really want to fix things. I don't disagree with that, but how do you not feel overwhelmed about like, "All we have to do is change everything from the very root cause of what caused all of these major events to happen all through history."

MANNAH: First of all, individually, we can't take on that responsibility. Changing the world is a long process and it takes a lot of work. And I guess I just feel like I don't have the luxury of fighting battles that are necessarily going to benefit me. This work is expensive in a lot of ways. It takes an emotional toll. It will impact, I personally, it's going to impact my career. So, this work is expensive. And the successes we're going to see are going to be incremental. One of the reasons I want to be so vocal is because if the tallest blade of grass gets cut, I am happy to be that tall blade of grass so that someone else can stand that much higher and say that much more. We all build upon the work of each other.

JAMEY: What you said about the blade of grass is really beautiful, actually, to me.

MANNAH: I think that a lot of this stems from the concept of privilege. And I think that I have a tremendous amount of privilege, not as much as other people perhaps, but it is my responsibility to use the privilege that I have to benefit people who aren't necessarily me. That's why it's important to stand in solidarity for people who are fighting for their own rights or their advancement whether or not you identify with that group. Allyship is so very important.

CORALINE: I certainly believe that each of us has privilege and power in some form, in some dynamic, in some social situation, even the most disadvantaged of us. They may have authority in their family, they may have a child that they can impart values to. Everyone has that power to some degree, even if it's a really limited degree. And I totally agree that we have, I don't want to put words in your mouth, I feel like we have a moral and ethical obligation to use that privilege to try and move the world forward. Even though, as Jamey pointed out, that can be really overwhelming. That can be really difficult. But really what's more important, how can you spend your time better than trying to make the world a better place?

JACOB: Yeah. And as someone who has a lot of privilege in almost every aspect of my identity, I think there's just a lot of value in just being upfront in the things that you know you are given, just by the aspect of being born. And I can communicate a lot to other people that you sort of, you recognize things that were given to you. You didn't necessarily ask for them, but it's really just like a matter of just laying it on the table. And I think it just seems like a fair thing to do.

MANNAH: Yeah. If people understood their privilege, I think that this conversation would be very different, or took the time to explore their privilege rather. I was in a meeting and we were talking about diversity and inclusion. And one of the women in the meeting was like, "Yeah, I think it's important, but it's super hard to talk about, so I don't want to do it." Like I said, I feel like I've been very privileged. I got a chance to go to college. I work as a software engineer now, and along the way, I've accomplished great many things. But the difference between my privilege and that privilege is the difference between shooting a bullet and throwing one. Imagine, I don't even know if I can, but in my mind, the ability to look at the world that we live in, see some of the things that we have going, not deal with them simply because I don't have to, it's mind boggling. Like Coraline said, we all have advantages, we all have privilege. Now, how does that manifest in the world and how can I use that in order to help other people, we would be in a much better place.

JACOB: I live in Kentucky and not too far from Central Appalachia, which has sort of earned the, what I think is a problematic term of Trump country. And something that I think comes up a lot -- my wife works for a nonprofit that works sort of in that region. And something that comes up a lot is this concept of I'm a poor white person from a historically neglected region and I'm being told that I have privilege. And that somehow not computing, and bear with me, I'm not completely sure where I'm going with this. I think somehow there is, and this may be willful, I think there's like this misunderstanding or maybe a willful misunderstanding of what privilege is in terms of it being just sort of like this sum where you just sort of add up points and subtract points and what do you come to. Whereas a person might have a great deal of privilege in one aspect and may have less so in another and that they don't just sort of total up together so neatly. I don't know if I'm making sense.

MANNAH: No, I think I hear you. I think I hear what you're saying is that privilege is a construct and it's not binary. Either you have it or you don't. And it's certainly not like sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of its parts where there are a lot of things that go into privilege. Again, going back to the Rowena Chiu article, gender, race, seniority, wealth are the aspects that she talks about. But there are all sorts of ways to be privileged. I'm certainly not here to be the privilege judge. These people over here are privileged and these people are not. I would go back again to what Coraline said is we all have an amount of privilege and there are situations where our privilege is more salient than others and use that as a basis for understanding, I guess.

JAMEY: The thing I have experienced that I was thinking about when Jacob was talking is people -- I think it's really hard for some people to admit that not everything they've done in their entire life has been on their own merits. But the thing I've really experienced with people being like, "Well, how can you say I have privilege when a bad thing has happened to me before?" And that's what I was thinking also when you were like about understanding what privilege is. I think there are people that really feel like, "But how can you say that when a bad thing has happened to me," because that's their understanding of what that means. And if you don't have an understanding of what privilege really means and what people actually mean when they say it and how that manifests, it's hard to conceptualize someone being like, "My life has been really hard. I've been struck with a lot of tragedy. How can you say that I have privilege?" I think that that's coming from a place of ignorance, but I also think that sometimes it's coming from a place of hurt. People that have felt hurt that feel like you're saying that their hurt isn't valid and it's hard to explain. That's not what I mean when I say this without further making them feel like invalid in their hurt in that way. And that's why it's hard, even though I think that conception is wrong, it's hard to communicate it, I think.

MANNAH: When you say that, like we've talked about narratives and we've talked about internal narratives, who we see ourselves as, how we identify is super important. And when that identity is challenged, how do we respond is what I hear you're saying. Whether it's about privilege or whether it's about any part who we are, we said, "I'm a good person," how can you challenge that? I guess I would go back to privilege as a concept. All of these things are very difficult and it would be silly to say that there is one way to describe privilege even though the words are more than their definition. So how can you challenge someone to, maybe the word isn't privilege. Maybe you get them to explore how they got to where they are, their successes and failures in relation to this concept that we're calling privilege.

CORALINE: I wonder if one of the missing ingredients is the notion that privilege is relative. So Jacob, to take your example of a poor white family living in Appalachia with not a lot of opportunities and not a great life. I wonder if it would be clear to them the privilege they have if someone were able to demonstrate someone in the country who has it even worse because they're at a different intersection of hardship. It's easy to look around and see people who are better off than we are and I think that may be people who feel defensive about their privileges they have, think that they're being elevated higher than their life experience tells them that they are, rather than looking in the other direction to see how many people they actually have it better than.

MANNAH: I think that that's a great point. I think it's important to recognize that privilege is contextual. And Jacob, you would have a different experience maybe walking through your town as a white man than I would as a black man, than Coraline would as a trans woman. Privilege doesn't make sense until you think about somebody else.

JAMEY: If there was only one person in the world, this wouldn't be a concept that we needed to have at all. And there's only one kind of person [inaudible].

JACOB: It seems like the conversation of privilege all crashes and burns when someone says, "But look at me, I don't have blah, blah, blah. I'm not privileged." So, if they're only thinking about themselves. But yeah, I think that is a great way to put it. If we bring it back to empathy and you think about if this other person had this exact same experience as me walking down the street, how might it be different and to learn from another person, like actual stories of how their experience is. And that is a much better way to understand privilege. I think it's a matter of sharing individual stories. It's a matter of sharing a story that a real person has experienced, you yourself have really experienced, as opposed to a vague concept of what privilege is that I might look up in a textbook.

CORALINE: I think another aspect of this is the language that we use. People who are social justice aware, social justice adjacent, we have very specific definitions for things like privilege. We have very specific definitions for things like intersectionality. We have very specific definitions of things like racism. If everyone shared the social justice definition of racism, no one would ever use the word reverse racism ever again because we have an understanding of it as institutional, as distinct from discrimination, but even the dictionary definition confounds racism with discrimination. I wonder if we would have a better outcome in talking to people with unexamined privilege and talking to people who are participating in oppressive systems if we remembered to speak in terms that they understand instead of using the shorthand that we use when we talk about issues like this amongst ourselves.

MANNAH: Yeah, I think it's important that that is a shared language where it is not okay, I'm going to explain this to you in your language or I'm going to speak in my language, but like let's get into what these words actually mean and go beyond maybe either of our understandings and come to a comfortable place where we can actually communicate. And I think that as a person who invites the discussion around how were we treating each other, how does privilege manifest, how are we creating opportunities for people, how do we make sure people are feeling protected, there is some responsibility to use words that get the conversation started. I don't want the conversation to stop there because I think a lot of these problems come from playing the game on somebody else's terms. That's how these cultural imbalances normally start, but continue to exist because one group is continually making concessions so that the other group feels more comfortable. And I think that coming back to the privilege discussion, tell me how people react when you say you're uncomfortable and I'll tell you how privileged you are. If everyone makes accommodations so that one group feels comfortable engaging in the conversation, what does that cost for the other group?

JAMEY: The anecdote you just told about what happens when people say they're uncomfortable is like an incredibly succinct way of describing something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about. So, thank you.

MANNAH: Well, we started this conversation talking about what's your superpower and what's the point of a superpower if you're not using it to help others? So, I thank you in return for giving an opportunity to give voice to this conversation and partaking in it.

CORALINE: This has been a really eye opening conversation. I love your perspective on things. I love how thoughtful you are about issues that I think are really easy to get emotional about. I think you've really struck a balance between your feelings and your thoughts and I think that's super inspiring. So, I just want to thank you so much for spending time with us today.

JAMEY: I agree with all of that.

MANNAH: Well, again, thank you so much for having me. This has been a fantastic conversation and I hope it's one of a great many. I really hope that these conversations continue.

CORALINE: We'll all do our best. I want to remind everyone that this show is all about having important conversations and often difficult conversations. And if you want to support us in having those conversations and in fact join in those conversations, you can go to Patreo.com/GreaterThanCode. Pledge at any level and get access to our private Slack community filled with listeners like yourselves, as well as our guests from the very beginning of the show. It's a very welcoming community. We learn from each other and we would love to have you be part of that community as well. So, please consider supporting us. Thanks everyone and we'll talk to you soon.