ARTY: Hi everyone. Welcome to Episode 160 of Greater Than Code. I am Artemis Starr and excited to introduce my co-panelist, Jacob Stoebel.

JACOB: Hello. And I'm here with Chante Thurmond.

CHANTE: Chante here. Hope everyone's doing well.

ARTY: Today, our guest didn't show up. So we started thinking about what might we talk about today. And our conversation seemed to gravitate toward Twitter world, the Twitterverse and the state of what's going on emotionally with these dynamics on Twitter. And so I thought maybe a good conversation was just to look at what's going on from all of our different perspectives, the things we see going on, the energy people are trading back and forth and talk about the thermodynamics of the Twitterverse.

CHANTE: Can I go first? Because I brought up earlier that I've been trying to do my best to stay off of Twitter and to basically curate my timeline. But things are creeping in everyday from everything from all the political activity with the impeachment hearings and folks coming in from the democratic candidates. And then I even see this trans remembrance day, Latina Equal Pay Day, all these different days, I can't keep up. So I feel like if I shut things down, I miss a lot. But then at the same time if I get on there, I get sucked into vortexes.

ARTY: Yeah they are like vortexes, right? They're like gravity balls that suck you in.

CHANTE: Oh, yeah. I want to know what people do in order to stay productive. How often are we going on to Twitter and for what purpose? And then, is it actually helpful?

JACOB: I was wondering the exact same thing because it's a really good question. I know that there are people that I really, really respect that are, I guess for lack of better word, are engaging in activism on Twitter. And surely they're getting something out of it because these are not dumb people. These are very smart people that wouldn't be doing it if they weren't getting something out of it. And the questions I'm always asking myself is what are they getting out of it? Because personally, I'm very explicitly only speaking about myself, I am not sure that I'm getting anything positive out of Twitter these days. I think Twitter is only taxing to me. And yeah, I'm wondering the same thing.

ARTY: Willem Larson was on our show not that long ago talking about the thermodynamics of emotion. I think it's a good way to look at it, of look at just what are the dynamics of human emotion. One of the things that struck me that he said was that emotion is just movement. It's just energy. It's neither good nor bad. And what happens is that energy moves us and we can decide to shut that energy down to try and control it. And we end up kind of boiling up like a pressure cooker when we try and hold on to that emotion energy and try and hold the emotion. And then often end up blowing up in some sort of release valve way when that pressure becomes something we can't really contain. And so, you see this kind of like thermodynamic sort of effects.

And then there's this layer facade of rationality that oversits this emotional creature that we really are. And all of these dynamics you start to see, the emotions underlying our rational facades are suddenly very visible in dynamics of, what is it that drives us to want to do these things, to want to speak in these ways? And one of the things you see is the identity narratives taking place and the type of reflections people give. So in my own journey, thinking a lot and learning a lot about just myself and identity, and I just had my 40th birthday not that long ago. And so I'm like, "Phase two of life, baby!" And as part of that, it's like going through this existential trough of nihilism and figuring out who you are and want to be on the other side.

And I think a lot of the things in question right now are around identity narratives. I've read this book Prometheus Rising about these brain circuits and how they're sort of wired, these emotional empathetic feedback loops that we get into, that we're pulled into. And I've been reading a lot of psychology stuff too. And one of the things that they talk about in that book, I don't know if I want to go there, it's something we should probably talk about in an offline context that I'm just not, like how do we do this safely?

CHANTE: Yeah. Well, I think that's actually a great question and we could totally scratch it. The other thought here is just like, how do we create these safe spaces so we can have conversations that are more emotionally deep and charged and places where we're a little uneasy. Like, is it okay to have public conversations about our emotions? I think it is, but we have to create the conditions in which it says it's an emotionally and psychologically safe place to do it.

ARTY: I think part of that safety is simply feeling like the people around you are on your side. That will give you the benefit of the doubt that you're speaking from your heart and trying to be a good person, even if you might stick your foot in your mouth and it comes out sideways. We're all human, we're all learning how to talk. And I think that's one of the things I've learned a lot as I've tried to engage in conversations that are outside of my cultural norm where I don't share the context with people I'm engaging with and I'm trying to understand. I'm trying to engage, I'm trying to listen, but it's not necessarily received that way, especially when I don't say quite the right thing. It's the experience recently for me was trying to get involved with listening more to a lot of black women speakers and listening to that message, trying to understand and realizing I'm in the outgroup as a white woman. And at least in this context is like lots of hostility that I didn't really understand.

CHANTE: Oh, wow. It was coming.

ARTY: Yeah.

CHANTE: Did they express it explicitly that there was some hostility or like the dynamics felt like hostility?

ARTY: Well, I think what happened was, I think it was defensive hostility that because my words were taken as an attack even though I didn't mean it that way. And so it's like when hostility is defensive, is it really hostility? [Chuckles]

CHANTE: It's a great question. It's an awesome question.

ARTY: So I fell on my sword and apologized.

CHANTE: You know, it's interesting. One of the things that I teach at my company, The Darkest Horse, is we focus on, we talk a lot about radical inclusion. And the reason why I like to start my model with radical inclusion for organizations and for people is just because we're talking about complicated intersectionalities, the way which we identify, the ways in which we show up in the world, which ultimately comes down to your worldview. And what does your worldview consist of? Like the values and the beliefs and the things in which you were brought up with. And ultimately, it has to do with culture, the family culture, the societal culture, and the class culture, the racial and ethnic culture. So it gets complicated and it's very sticky. And I say to people, it's like the image of trying to separate fascia away from fat and muscle and bones. It's really tough to do that. And sometimes we're like successful in getting a piece of it out, but we can't. It's all kind of interconnected and I think it is meant to be uncomfortable. It actually is good that it is uncomfortable because that's when you know that you're challenging a worldview.

ARTY: Yeah. That's kind of one of those things too is I think it's really important to engage now in the conversation even when it's hard because at the end of the day, if we're not all on the same side as humans together and can have a shared conversation about our humanity, we got to be able to get there somehow. And we can shift to a place trying to find someone to blame. But that doesn't really get us anywhere new where we need to be. We need collaboration, we need torch bearing, we need vision, we need radical inclusion to be made real, not just this academic thing that we're arguing about on Twitter. We need it to be real.

CHANTE: Yes, we totally do. I want to go back to something you said. You mentioned about this, I mean, I call it over identification over tribalism, like this over attachment to tribalism and tribalistic kind of ways of being in the world. There's a lot of advantages of understanding your identities and the complexities of them. But then I always tell people too, "If you're to the point of where you have to adhere to those and you're so strongly fixated on them, you miss out on the beautiful opportunities we have as humanity to understand and to figure out that we are way more white than we truly are." I mean, the DNA structure, how can we really argue that genome, we're 99.9% the same. And race and culture is definitely socially constructed, therefore that means that it will change. Our modern understanding of race and ethnicity is simply our modern understanding of it. And historically, it's been different. What we consider a white person actually is not even white. And the way that was created long ago was definitely based more on power and structural racism and things of that nature. So by fighting about it and arguing about it, we still uphold it. We still keep it in place.

ARTY: Yeah. I think that's another aspect of what makes the conversations and stuff hard because there's this aspect of what you focus on grows and thus amplifying the attention to differences that are not the things we want to be divided by. We create spirals of the same thing that we're trying to avoid.

CHANTE: Bingo. And as it pertains to the Twitterverse, you can get stuck in those spirals, those vortexes because one of the things I do, and I always ask myself, "Chante, who is the one curating this Twitter feed? Is it me or somebody else?" And I'm like, "Do I need to hop off this train because it's a freak train." And I try to be very mindful about creating this list of people that I'm like, "If I want to go get this vibe, I'd go to this list. If I want to get out of that vortex, I go over here." But then I get stuck and I get sucked in. I forget. And I'm like, "Okay, the list thing really does work for me." It helps me to sort of change channels quickly if I need to. But I'm like, "How many other people are doing this?" And then I just pay attention to the folks who are on Twitter, as you mentioned, Jacob, like doing their activism, their digital kind of form of activism. And then, we start to sort of retweet the same people we're comfortable with, that we agree with, not necessarily people that we disagree with. And based on the Twitter analytics and the ways in which they sort of feed that to us, I think it's more that you would get those comments and postings that have made you more or less go along with your worldview versus challenged your worldview.

ARTY: Yeah.

JACOB: And I think the semantics of a retweet and like is pretty widely understood. Like which tribe I'm putting myself in with. So, retweeting someone that I hope at large disagree with, but they maybe made a good point that is at least worth engaging with, wouldn't be read as that. There's not a way to sort of signal boost a nuance.

CHANTE: True. How can we do that?

JACOB: Because I think the issue that we're circling around is that we've got this sort of binary where we can sort of make a social network that's very open, like more or less Twitter is. And we get a lot of noise in the form of bots or just people that are really looking to have bad faith arguments. Or there are other version like a Slack community where you have to get a personal invite and then that runs the risk of having a bubble. And I guarantee technology alone is not going to solve this problem, but how do you create a community where you're really filtering out bad faith actors, but you're really encouraging good faith disagreements?

CHANTE: Such a good question and I wish I had an answer, but I definitely don't. I think you're right. It probably wouldn't be solved wholly by technology.

ARTY: If we think about technology as a tool for implementing the intention of humans, humans have some sort of intention of something that they're trying to do. And software is just a tool. And I think about what if we had this particular tool, let's say we could make up anything and anything we thought of and software could be implemented. Let's just assume it's possible, like if we could up with a rule that we could write code or some technology to do it. And I think framing it like how we frame the problem, as soon as we end up in this mode of drawing a line of who are the people inside the circle and who are the people outside the circle, I think we get into a whole set of problems. One of the things I read recently was about -- you talk about this tribal dynamics of this tribal gravity. And I was reading this thing about the higher the empathy toward tribal gravity, the higher correlation with active hostility, vindictive acts toward the outgroup. So the intensity of tribal bonding affects both sides. And yet at the same time, these people are doing it from a standpoint of defensiveness of, "I feel like I'm defending something like a mama bear." And so, I don't really see how I'm being felt on the outside because really in my heart is guardian loveness. And so we go blind in very particular ways when we go into this kind of defensive mode. And so then you see this escalation of hostility on both sides when both people really feel heard and attacked and they're like mama bear raging. And it's blindness on both sides. And the only way to break that -- I mean, that's essentially what we have to break is to see, "Hey, I'm a human that's hurting and you're a human that's hurting and we just need to stop this and figure out how do we be on the same side? How do we root for team human together?"

JACOB: One thing that I've been reading a lot on Twitter is, and I really agree with this is, that oppressed people or people from oppressed groups really do have a right to sort of, just like you said, have that sort of mama bear rage. If a trans person is being harassed online, they're not obligated to, or it's understandable if they are going to be racial about about that. And what I was thinking about is as a person who pretty much on every axis of identity as a white man, I'm pretty much on the sort of the power side of pretty much [inaudible]. What I was thinking about is like, it's kind of my job especially to do just what you were saying, Arty. It's my job to not get mad and to try to find the people who are receptive to a thoughtful dialogue and challenge them to think about these things a little bit more because there are other people that have had way too much crap thrown at them. And it seems like it's kind of my job to see if I can carry a little bit more of the load.

CHANTE: Yeah, and I think it starts with one person. Sometimes when you think about it, like the grand scheme and the macro versus micro and you're like, "Oh, just me changing and doing something different within the ways in which I am and being in the world. Does that change?" Actually yes, it does. Because you have to start somewhere, truly. We can't wait for people who are empowered to always be the ones to actually do the thing we need them to do. It's like that whole, I don't know the actual researcher who did this, but there's that notion like when you see a herd of deer, for instance, they make a decision based on the 51st -- once the scales tip with the deer, which way to go. And it's not like there's one in particular that's going to decide it. It's almost like they wait for that kind of deer that's going to tip the scales to the majority of them and then they'd go that way. So every vote towards the yes or towards that evolutionary step does matter. And once you get to a tipping point, we see things change. We see the tides turn.

ARTY: I think this tidal thermodynamics are very much at the core of humans too. It's just that we have this sort of rational brain that sits on top of the same sorts of instincts. But if we're connected in our hearts as a pack, as a tribe, if we sink into that dynamic that is within all of us, we have the same capacity to have a sort of integrated, empathetic feel. And as people are all making decisions about which way to go, to go with that sort of flow. And when we're connected to our tribe and our friends and we want our friends to like us and we want to be one of the friend pack, they're the same kind of dynamics to show support for your friends, you go with the flow of your friends. And so, I think there's that dynamic. And then as we see people -- I've cut ties with a number of people as I've kind of shifted into this mode of like, I'm going to think for myself and of my own ideas and I couldn't handle the cynicism and sort of depressive coping. I see a lot of that these days where people get depressed, they lose hope. And then cynicism becomes a way to kick. Vindication becomes a way to kick. It's a way to vent the energy to make us feel better as validation, to validate this world that everything sucks, that validate this world that we're a victim. And so all of the reasons, all the things that we do become proof to validate our feelings. And that proof to validate our feelings is a way to vent that energy, to vent those particular thermodynamics of feeling crappy.

And what I realize though is there's this completely other way that you can operate as opposed to being in victim mode. You can be in visioneering mode. And so instead, if you think about and imagine yourself, because our eyes, we're always looking at where we are in the present through all of our experiences of our past. It's like we interpret it through our existing mind, heart, whatever you want to call it. Our existing sense has woken up our past and we see the present in terms of the rhymes of our past. And the other thing that affects us though is we see the rhymes of our dreams. And so if you make an active effort to imagine this vision, of this person I want to be, imagine this identity of this person who I am and how I'm going to behave and act with my friends and really visualize and dream all of that up. Think about this person you're going to be inside that's happy and great and everything's good, whatever it's going to be. And if you wake up in the morning and you live in that dream, you really believe and say, "I am all of these things." You completely shift modes to operating out of your own life source, making your own reality, creating and manifesting your own dreams, and shift from this mode of victimhood to this mode of maker. And then you become one of those gravity balls that sucks everyone into your inner reality because you're creating space. And I think ultimately as a leader, that's really what leadership is all about is creating space. So like the directory of cool people that love thing. What I was doing with that is creating a space with a definition that people could engage in a new set of rules of engagement that if you're up for these rules of engagement, join the circle. And then everyone knows that everyone else in the circle has opted to the same rules and you can create a new thing just by creating the space for it. And as an individual, I can make space.

CHANTE: Yes. Oh yeah, totally. I agree with all of that. That was lovely. That was awesome.

JACOB: So the idea of sort of like, let's make a space where the people that opt in are the ones that we wanted anyway. Would you characterize it as that?

ARTY: I think part of the problem is making it about the people trying to keep some people in and some people out. Instead saying, these are the behaviors of thriving. The reason I named it directory of cool people, because then you've got cool people gravity. If you want to be one of the cool people with all the other cool people in the circle, you play with the cool people's rules. And so, what does the gate look like of what it means to be a cool person? And then everyone's invited. You could be cool if you want to be cool. We all have the option to be cool. We all have the choice to be cool at any time. You look at the reasons people mama bear rage and lash out. We have these huge problems in the world because we got a billion people that are starving. The amount of suffering that happens is insane. And we all have suffering though. We all have different sorts of suffering and get sucked into our own worlds and don't necessarily have the capacity to handle other people's suffering when we're suffering ourselves. At the same time, we all have that power to shift from our own victimhood to shifting to a mode of maker, to shifting to a mode of creating our reality, to shifting to that mode of believing, that powers within all of us, too.

CHANTE: Yes. And the thing I was going to say, the thing that came to my mind was like, Jacob you just asked that question was because of [inaudible] of thermodynamics of things like the energy. But energy is always, [inaudible]. If we're thinking about creating circles where people are making space and coming together, it could be that the frequency -- like every week for instance, if we were to gather, our frequencies would slightly be different than the week before. And sometimes it's about attracting people with the right frequency and then therefore when people are ready to get into that frequency or that vibe, they do show up and it's available for them to join. Rather than saying like, "Oh, you're not that kind of person." Are we on the same wavelength today? Are we not necessarily -- how do you say it? We're complementary, but that's kind of the way I'm thinking about it. Like, do we fit today? Are we going to mesh well? Are we going to be able to form, put our energies together and make a better, bigger energy. And sometimes the answer is no. That's how I look at things like that.

ARTY: And some days, it's easier to flow with someone else. And other days it's like, I need to be my own rigid shape today. "I'm sorry, I'm not going to flow with you. I'm going to go be rigid and go over here." And that's totally okay too. I think we all need to be able to create space for ourselves too, to make our own little bubble with our own little world reality. The only reality we have is within ourselves, what you actually experience.

CHANTE: Exactly right. And that's a whole nother episode. Oh, my gosh. I would love to talk about that. What's reality? We'll get into this. But totally, I agree. I don't like to think that people should, I think people should always be taking time out to get away from the larger group and just work on their energy and their thermodynamics of themselves to figure it out. That's good for the collective.

ARTY: I think these two things are very connected because if you look at what are the motivations behind call out culture essentially of being in a hard place and feeling better via calling others out, that are the people that you see causing harm. And generally, the way this calling out is done is via some sort of identity labeling. You are a fill in the blank. And there's plenty of vocab going around of identity labels that people don't want to wear basically. And so what happens when somebody slams an identity label on something that is hurtful, the next thing you do when someone puts a hurtful label on you is you cower up and defense. And some people will go to mama rage mode when you hit your limit and you can't hold it in. And people need to explode in some sort of way. And the more we throw these daggers really, the more that amplifies, and then you kind of look back and go, "Is this really where we want to go? Are the actions we're taking actually leading us closer to a place where we want to be or taking us further away from it?" And I think that's where it really comes down to of like we might feel better in the moment by going, "I'm not one of those, but you are." Makes us feel better. It makes us feel like we did our duty, but what are the thermodynamics that we actually caused in the world? What's the energy we're throwing out there? Are we throwing rainbows or are we pulling people into a happy space? Or are we being out there being supportive friends to the people that are having a hard time. It's just totally different. We can throw branches out. We can see the people suffering. We can see the people we're celebrating and cheer them on. I mean, there's so many other sorts of energy we can put out into the world that is not, "I feel better by cutting you down." And I mean that's kind of where we're at in a lot of ways.

JACOB: There's a really great phrase that I think is used in some social justice circles called Calling In which is –

CHANTE: I love this one. Let's talk about it.

JACOB: Okay. My understanding is like, calling out is there's a really great podcast, Invisibilia, I'll put it in the show notes, about call outs, which are they really [inaudible] very ancient community practice of shunning, which is basically we are protecting the community by throwing you out. You're out. We need to protect ourselves. And calling in is basically the idea where you approach the offending person and you let them know that you care about them and you also care about your community. And what you do is you draw a line around your community that defines it and says, "These are our boundaries. Look, you are on the wrong side of it. It's very important to me that you be with us on the right side of these boundaries." And that makes it really clear both to the rest of the community and also to the person who has maybe done something that's not great or worse, that it's important that they come and make right. But that you want to see them do that. You're making it clear that you're not interested in shunning them just for the sake of making yourself feel better. You're showing them this is how you can make right.

ARTY: I like it. Just thinking about this situation that I mentioned recently that, because I wanted to make right and had someone reach out to me in that way, it would have been a very different conversation. Because I definitely had the motivation. I did what I could of my own accord with respect to apologizing and trying to listen and things. It's like one of those things where in the same time, there are sort of things you got to kind of take in as a learning experience too and go, "Okay, so this conversation went a little South. I understand why and I learned some things. And the next time I have one of these conversations, I will be much more aware of how the things I say might be interpreted." Because when you're outside of a different culture, there's all sorts of things you don't realize. I have a friend I have been talking to. We're talking about birthday celebrations and death rituals like funerals, and realize there's like totally opposite taboos around life after death that are opposite of one another. So in one case, if your belief is after you die, that your spirit moves on and should be left to rest and celebrations of remembrance basically are taboo, then we don't want to wake the spirits and we want to let them sleep and do their thing. And yet, we've got opposite traditions of that to forget people completely is to let them die, to let their memory die. And so you end up with these opposite rituals, opposite cultures, opposite taboos, opposite beliefs. And the radical inclusion is to learn to see these sorts of things and to still be able to go, "Hey, I'm a human, you're human. We have some different ideas about these things and both things are very important to us, but I can still see your humanity. I can still see you as a person too, even if you think upside down of me. Isn't that fascinating that you think upside down of me?"

CHANTE: Yeah, totally. And this is why I'm like, "Oh!" So, two things came to mind that the calling in reminded me so much of that part that I practice, but I would call it [meta], where you have the loving kindness and compassion for people and for yourself to know that calling in is like trying to get somebody who's maybe straight away from the greater humanity to be like, "You're kind of going out there a little bit, come back in here so that we can all sort of understand and sympathize and empathize." We might all have these kind of feelings and that's what makes us human. And then the other part of it was just that when you were saying this is like yes and recognizing that we definitely had our own worldview and the culture is like when it comes out even to life and death. Literally those realities that are socially constructed, by the way. Or like, what is it to be alive? What is it to be dead? And we learned that it's indoctrinated into us before we're ever even born. And the part of it is just to remember that like, I think the biggest lesson is to be like, "You're a human in this lifetime. You're here in this body to experience life as a human," which is like a spectrum of emotion and experience. What does that mean for you and for humanity?

ARTY: You're in this body to experience life as a human.

CHANTE: You're here to experience it. And people could say, if they believe in reincarnation, it's great, but right now in this lifetime right now, how I know you is as a human. You're not a squirrel and you're not an elephant. You're not shark. You're a human. What does it actually mean to be a human?

ARTY: Yeah. That's kind of where we're at in history right now though too, just this time where we've got all this connectivity to be able to see one another in the world right now and to be connected to the degree that we are connected across the globe is crazy. And it's a forcing function right now for us to evolve, to see all these spirals that we're creating to be able to go, "You know what? I'm a human. You're human. We're humans too." And the thing is there are problems that are legit hard and it's not like I don't get scarcity, and all the mindsets and stuff that come with that. And this is why I look at the tremendous privilege that I have in my lifetime as a human and I look at all the people that don't have that, and I'm in a position to actually do something. I want to spend my volts on what I can't and make the world a better place while I'm here. I think that's really important right now that the people that can lead do.

CHANTE: Touche. This is a nice, maybe a segue to remind us like the show, Greater Than Code. After all, it's the humans. It's the humanity in us that's creating the code. So, we have the ability to create a physical and metaphysical world with the lift of technology right now. That's amazing. We're heading so close. We already almost are at the singularity. At least we know in this modern version of history, we're pretty close to it.

ARTY: It's an exciting time to be alive, huh?

CHANTE: Yes. Or even to be dead. [laughs] They've got ways to bring you back. They've got lots of ways. Holograms and everything.

ARTY: Yeah. The world is going to get a whole lot crazier. And this is why too I look at all the things that are happening. And at the end of the day, it's going to come down to our choice of what type of future we want, what type of reality we want to be in, and building the type of world that we want with our power of taking responsibility, of owning that power and leading the world in a direction of radical inclusion of all. And how do we just look at that as a problem to solve as technologists, as leaders and create space for those innovations to happen.

CHANTE: That's a question that I want to hear. I would love to hear the listeners to weigh in on that too. That's a great question.

ARTY: Me too.

CHANTE: Thank you for that. Should we wrap it up?

ARTY: I feel like we should. That was a good note.

CHANTE: That was. I don't think we can say anything else after that.

[Laughter]

CHANTE: Should we do our reflection?


ARTY: Sure, let's do that.

CHANTE: I really liked that, thinking about synchronicity and the ways in which things happen, it's kind of nice. Our guest didn't show up for this one. I think this is a great conversation that I wasn't necessarily planning on having, but I need it more than I realized. So, I'm glad that we made it happen.

JACOB: I'm really just thinking about this trick of how we thought and we make communities of people that can have difficult conversations but also find ways to draw clear boundaries about, trans people are people and exist. You know what I mean? But there are certain boundaries that need to be respected and are not up for debate, but that there's surely a lot of other things that we can sort of have a space to have a debate about. And yeah, I'm really thinking about what those boundaries are and how that balance this [inaudible].

CHANTE: I want to say something really quick to tag on to that. I love that you said that. And what came to my mind just immediately is just like, wow, if we're at this place where we have the ability to really build a future that we all want and desire as humans, the difference in the shift could be that like the more diverse architectural kind of army of people we have building this next frontier of humanity is, with all those diverse experiences of being a human, that means we have all the more chance of making this world so much cooler. Because the people who build the modern world, the problem was is that they were so much alike. And so, it wasn't that they missed out on like -- it wasn't that they miss out on other people's versions of humanity and reality, because trans people have always existed, but it's just that the people who are building the world that actually notice or see them or acknowledge them.

JACOB: Yeah.

ARTY: Just to add onto that too, the thing I'm seeing now is how much our connectivity is an opportunity to see our diversity, to see all the strength and power and creative coolness of one another. And if we can come together in shared conversation and shared space about what type of world we want, what does that vision that we can craft together and really kickstart an effort to build the thing. I mean, this is an opportunity to invite the world to a conversation. There's no reason why this can't be a thing that we make happen together.

CHANTE: Hell yeah.

[Laughter]

CHANTE: Everyone is invited. Everyone's invited.