EPISODE 36 [INTRODUCTION] [00:00:07] CL: Hello and welcome to This Speech Life, an audio course and podcast from SpeechTherapyPD.com, exploring all things related to school-based SLP practice. I'm your host, Caitlin Lopez, MS, CCC-SLP, a school-based SLP with over 10 years of experience. In each episode, we will cover three need-to-know aspects of that episode topic, two resources related to the topic, and one actionable strategy for tomorrow. [INTERVIEW] [0:00:37.0] CL: Hello everyone and welcome to this weekÕs episode of This Speech Life. I am Caitlin Lopez, a school-based SLP, and your host, and I am over the moon excited to have the fantastic Kayla OÕConnor with us today. If you donÕt know who she is, I canÕt wait to introduce all of you to her. SheÕs amazing. She has so many great things to offer us this episode and before we begin, just a few housekeeping items. [DISCLOSURE] [0:01:08.3] CL: I am Caitlin Lopez, the host of this podcast, This Speech Life. I do receive compensation for this episode from speechtherapypd.com and that is my financial disclosure. I have no relevant, nonfinancial disclosures to report. Kayla OÕConnor is the owner of Coffeehouse SLP where you can find her inspirational books on her website and she will receive an honorarium for appearing as a guest on this podcast episode and those are her financial disclosures to report. She also has no relevant nonfinancial disclosures to report. [INTERVIEW CONTINUED] [0:01:45.0] CL: All right. So now to the fun stuff. Like I said, I am excited to introduce you to Kayla. She is a speech-language pathologist with 12 years of experience working in the public school system and with all 12 of those years, working with secondary students in middle and high school. This is the population of students she truly loves working with and views her work as a secondary SLP as life work. She is an SLP with many passions, which includes functional therapy practices for adolescence and self-care and wellness for SLPs. Outside of her traditional role as a school-based SLP, she enjoys acting as a thought leader by collaborating and sharing with other SLPs, regarding best practices for truly meeting the individual needs of students in speech therapy and I am just so excited to have Kayla. I feel like there are tons of resources out there for early intervention, for preschool, especially for elementary and we just donÕt talk about our secondary students enough and all of those kids are going to eventually be secondary students and so I am just really grateful for the passion that Kayla brings to this population and the resources that sheÕs going to bring to all of us. So Kayla, welcome, and thank you for being here. [0:03:05.7] KO: Thank you for having me Caitlin. I am super excited to be here and I think this platform is just such a good platform for us SLP, so thank you for doing this. [0:03:15.8] CL: Thank you. All right, so letÕs just jump right into it. What are three things that we need to know about working with secondary students? [0:03:24.2] KO: So I will say, one of the first things to know about working with secondary students is that we always lead with making connections with our kids, making those connections, and then continuing to build on those connections. I found whenever IÕm working with my students and I build those connections that allows them to, in return, trust me as a safe person because when weÕre working on things in the therapy room sometimes, those are really, really hard things for our students to do and sometimes, itÕs not so easy for them to just jump into trying things that they already know are difficult and hard for them. These are teenagers. They know whatÕs easy for them, they know whatÕs difficult for them and itÕs not always easy to continue to try to do those hard things but I found when you have someone there who you know is a trusted person, you know that you can trust that person, itÕs easier for the students to do the hard things and once my kids trust me, I found that they will do anything I ask them to do, which is so good. ItÕs like you trust me, you know that IÕm not going to let you fail, you know IÕve got your back. So yeah, building those connections with our kids, even some of the kids that might be either apprehensive or they might have some negative thoughts about speech therapy or any of those things, learning to just really connect with those kids and let them know that you are a trusted person and they can trust you in the process of therapy. [0:05:09.6] CL: Awesome, I love that idea of just working on that connection piece first. I feel like teenagers are so good at reading through the Ð how do I say this without Ð with sounding kosher? But reading through like that inauthenticity, you know? They know whoÕs there for them and who is not and I think thatÕs really huge of just making those connections and then like you said, also continuing to build on those connections. It's not a one-time thing. I think those are such good points and the other thing that I love the way that you just said that, itÕs hard to do hard things. We all donÕt like to do hard things. [0:05:47.8] KO: Yes. [0:05:50.8] CL: I was recently talking with a friend like she invested something on social media about how she was so proud of herself that she tried something new and itÕs something that she wasnÕt initially good at, at first but she kept with it and thatÕs like the first time in her life sheÕs ever done that and I thought, ÒOh my goodness, yeah, thatÕs a lot of us, right?Ó [0:06:11.1] KO: Yeah, we all need someone who is in our cheering corner, we all need a cheerleader and especially these kids. You know, theyÕre not adults, theyÕre still navigating life, theyÕre figuring things out and so they need trusted people to help guide them and help them know that, ÒLook, you know, even if you fall, IÕve got your back. IÕm here to support youÓ and so I just think that that has shifted a lot of my therapy sessions with my students. A lot of times, I hear therapists at I work with, like the tweens and teens, talk about the behaviors and the attitudes and I always say I donÕt really have problems with my kids and I think itÕs because I start with building a connection with them and then we continue to build upon that connection and we really donÕt have issues. There are things here and there, of course, we have to work through but I think that that connection, it is unmatched. You canÕt beat it honestly when you work with this population and like you said, kids know. They know when you care and they know when youÕre just there. I had a kid ask me before, ÒWhy do some teachers come to school?Ó HeÕs like, ÒI know they donÕt care, I know they donÕt want to be here, why are they still coming?Ó It kind of broke my heart but it helped me to understand that these kids know that theyÕre not being fooled by the people who care and theyÕre not being fooled by the people who donÕt care. So that was a huge thing that really opened my eyes. [0:07:45.7] CL: Yeah, do you feel like as a secondary student, your role has Ð well, I guess youÕve never really worked with elementary or pre-K outside of grad school but do you feel like your role is more of a counselor than maybe like Ð well, you know, it's so hard because all of us have all these different hats we put on when we walk into our therapy room but it really sounds like you are there, especially when you say things like, ÒIÕve got your back. IÕm not going to let you fail. IÕm in your corner.Ó So do you feel like there are session of your where youÕre counseling students and youÕre just checking in on them? [0:08:23.9] KO: That is a huge piece of it and I will say, IÕve visited elementary schools but I didnÕt stay long. So IÕve helped out here and there but I always come back to my side and IÕve worked in private practice with younger kids but for the schools, I was consistently been with my secondary students and yes, that is a huge piece of it, the counseling piece. Just thinking back to when we were teenagers how difficult it was just to navigate life and things, and then these are students who have difficulties in fluencies. So think about a student who has a fluency disorder, navigating teenage life, or a student who has a language disorder, navigating teenage life and so itÕs like those multiple things that theyÕre dealing with at one time, and counseling is a huge piece of what I do with my students and it doesnÕt always look like what a traditional counseling session would look like but you now, checking in with them, ÒHowÕs your day going?Ó You know, ÒHow is your week, what did you do over the weekend, did you do anything fun?Ó and just allowing that door to stay open for the students to communicate with you. I think that thatÕs huge. [0:09:43.0] CL: I love that and I think itÕs a good point too that you pointed out. IÕm not a counselor but it is a piece of it and building that connection. So I think thatÕs a really good point to point out. IÕm still staying within my scope of practice, IÕm not overstepping boundaries but it is something that we need to think about when weÕre working with students who have a lot more on their plate than just their one speech goal or two speech goals that theyÕre coming to us for. Coming back to that whole-person care, especially when it comes to these teenagers that are really trying on their identities for the first time, so I think thatÕs a great point that you bring up. WhatÕs the second thing we need to know? [0:10:21.1] KO: So the second thing we need to know is I think that there is always question for people, whether theyÕre SLPs or not, and the question that they always ask, ÒDo kids still need therapy in middle and high school?Ó Answer is maybe. I should say, there are kids who master their goals and theyÕre successful, and once they get to seven, eighth, ninth grade, they no longer need our services. But on the other hand, there are kids who are ninth grade, 10th grade, and beyond who have not quite gotten, you know, all of the skills that they need to be successful and they do still need our services. I think that there is a misconception that once a kid gets to their teenage years that therapy is no longer beneficial and I think that is the farthest thing from the truth. There is so many things that we can still work on with our students. I would caution and IÕve heard it before that people say a blanket statement that once kids gets a secondary, we start dismissing and IÕm like, ÒNo, donÕt say that.Ó That is not what we do because what we do is individualized for every kid. So if the kid still needs therapy, then we show up and we still provide them with therapy and the therapy, especially once we get to you know, high school is really, I used to call it, focused on teaching life skills. What is it that this kid needs for life? Because once theyÕre ninth grade, weÕve got a few more years with them in high school. What are the strategies, what are the skills that this student needs to be successful now in their academics but then also, beyond post-secondary for whatever their life looks like? Like every student is going to have a different plan for their life and thatÕs fine. But whatever their plan is, how can we ensure that right now weÕre helping them to develop the skills and strategies they need to be successful in life? We only have a few years with them and this is why I think that the work we do at this Ð in this age group is so important because these are life skills. These kids are going to be 18 very, very soon and we have to Ð it is our duty to ensure that we are equipping them with the skills that they need to be successful. [0:12:57.1] CL: What does your caseload look like? Because IÕve heard that. IÕve been told that from administrators, IÕve been told that from the SLPs that you know, my students are graduating on to their programs or I mean, graduating from my elementary school into their middle school or their high school. ÒWhy are you still recommending services, why didnÕt you exit this kid?Ó You know? And then I think, ÒOh, well, IÕve never worked secondary.Ó You know, there are times where I ask myself, ÒAm I keeping this kid on because I think they need it or because is it really going to benefit them?Ó that you know, outweighing the balance of like, theyÕre being pulled from class time and you know, thereÕs a lot that we think about and so itÕs like, ÒAm I keeping them because I think it will benefit them?Ó which I think, speech therapy will always benefit us. But is it really going to impact our education because thatÕs the piece of educational speech, right? WeÕre not a medical model where we can just do that. So anyway, IÕm rambling on but you know, IÕve been told that and so as youÕre talking about this, IÕm like, ÒOkay, okay, this is validating to me to know that there is a secondary SLP who is saying, ÒYeah, if I need to work with these kids, I need to work with these kids.Ó ItÕs not a blanket, ÒOh, 10th grade, you exit.Ó So my question to you is, what does your caseload look like? I always assumed that it would be like our, you know, mild to mild-moderate students and those STC or self-contained classrooms that receive speech and nobody else does and maybe some fluency kids. Do you work with students that are just receiving RSP? Do you work with Gen N students? I guess basically, I asked it, what does your caseload look like? [0:14:35.9] KO: Yes, so I have a mixture. I have my self-contained units, I have several classes actually at the school that IÕm at right now, students with higher needs in self-contained classes and students who might be a little bit more independent but still in some of our self-contained units and then as far as my general education students, I do have fluency students and I have a bulk of language and pride students as well that we are still working on. Some of those things that are relevant for them right now in their academic setting and you brought up something about the balance between, I guess, you know, do you want to pull the students from their classes and you know, how that affects things. We definitely want to have the student in their least restrictive environment, which is the classroom as much as possible. There is also the balance of when does this child need to be removed to work on specific things that canÕt be necessarily addressed in the classroom setting and so we do that with therapy. So therapy time looks very different when it comes to secondary students. So for elementary, you know, you may pull a kid twice a week. High school, we definitely you know, typically, I should say, everythingÕs individualized. But we typically donÕt use that model as much because we are trying to balance, ÒOkay, how often do we need to pull this student from their classes to work on this skill?Ó but also, ÒHow can we ensure that weÕre not pulling them too much from their classes?Ó and so it is a balance and itÕs kind of a dance that we do when it comes to service time but I think that the better thing to do is to find the time that works out for this student as far as pulling them versus not providing services at all, the fear of pulling them from their classes. So to answer the question, I do have a wide variety of kids on my caseload but the way we do balance the pulling from classes is that we work with a speech therapy time so itÕs not as often and I think that that allows the student also to Ð I always tell my students is, ÒThe things that weÕre practicing here, you are to take it back to your class. So what weÕre practicing here, you know, I want you to also practice and incorporate into your studying or your reading in your classes and things like that.Ó So we are there as an instructional support to assist with the academics. [0:17:18.0] CL: Awesome. Awesome, thank you for that clarification and just that explanation of what secondary services look like. I know that you know, weÕre going to have secondary SLPs listening and theyÕre like, ÒYeah, we know thisÓ but itÕs good for us to Ð I always try to think of my students, you know, even if IÕm working with preschool, what is the long-term goal for this child, you know. What is speech therapy, what is academics, what is their academic career going to look like five years from now, 10 years from now? Because I think thatÕs really helpful in me trying to strategize, ÒOkay, what goals?Ó Ð and I know a lot of us are moved and we donÕt get the luxury of staying within a school site or within a specific area for a long time, sometimes depending on our districts. That is something that I think about and so I havenÕt developed relationships with our secondary SLPs in my current school district. ItÕs ginormous, thereÕs 60 of us but I think this is a really valuable conversation and itÕs definitely inspiring me to check in with the students that I know theyÕre going to be at that middle school or I know theyÕre going to move on to that particular high school to reach out to those SLPs and see how do we build this really cohesive program for our students. What do services look like for you? What would you like to see on IEPs? You know, ÒHey, IÕve got this student coming into you, hereÕs what IÕm thinkingÓ and the reason why IÕm thinking about all of this as youÕre talking is, IÕm thinking about one particular student that IÕve been assessing the last two weeks. He is a sixth grader, language is fantastic, shyer kid. He's been according to his IUP, his new to me. I just started working with him. His services are five minutes, once a month, which is just essentially a consult and heÕs a fluency student and so heÕs been in RSP for the last few years. According to his IEP, he moved into our school. The RSP teacher has said, ÒI donÕt think he means to work with me anymoreÓ and sheÕs been working with the school psychologist. So she said, ÒWeÕre going to do a full evaluation and move his Triennials up.Ó So I just recently started working with him, assessing him. IÕve been checking in with him but I havenÕt heard these fluencies in the five minutes once a month when I pull him outside of his classroom. The teacher doesnÕt have concerns but I recently was talking Ð so I pulled him and did some language samples with him this week and I noticed disfluencies and I started talking to him about his disfluencies because heÕs a sixth grader, he can tell me whatÕs up. He said, ÒYeah, I know about stuttering, my speech therapist told me about stuttering. I think stuttering is fine.Ó You know, I asked a lot of questions, ÒWhatÕs your view of stutterers?Ó you know, trying to get to, ÒDoes this really bother him or not?Ó and it doesnÕt seem to bother him, and then when I talk to mom to get parent report, mom said, ÒYou know, heÕs been in speech for a long time. I know he still needs to practice his strategies, he doesnÕt remember to.Ó And even in my conversation with him, eliciting those language samples and trying to get to if this is an issue for him or not, I just keep landing on your first point of I donÕt think the SLPs made connections with him and so speech is a negative thing, which you talked about, you know, what are your negative thoughts towards speech and so itÕs one of those tough things, ÒDo I increase his speech?Ó You know, maybe once a month to check in on those strategies and remind them or do I just kind of, ÒHe says heÕs okay, teacher doesnÕt notice it in the classroom.Ó So itÕs that fine balance of, ÒHow do we help these kids or not?Ó and I wish I could send him to you Kayla. [0:21:06.7] KO: I would take him, I love fluency. [0:21:09.8] CL: I do too. [0:21:12.2] KO: I think that your thought process is really good when it comes to that, especially with talking to the student. They have the lived experiences on whatÕs going on with them from day to day. Fluency of course is one of those tricky things because you know the only consistent thing about fluency is that it is inconsistent. So thatÕs one of those trickier things for sure. I think that thatÕs just so valuable to let the student know that they have a voice in their therapy and allowing them to be a collaborative partner as much as possible. I think that you get so much more buy-in with our students when you let them know like, ÒYes, I am the SLP but essentially, you are the expertÓ you know? So I have things that I know but then you also have things that you know and then we need to share those things so that we are working together as the team to support you best. I mean, of course, you know parent is a part of that team as well so theyÕre multiple variables in this. [0:22:17.0] CL: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for giving me this space to kind of process through the things youÕre saying and Ð [0:22:22.9] KO: I love this stuff. [0:22:24.9] CL: Yeah, itÕs great. You know, and something that you just said that I always come back. So you said, you know, youÕre the expert. IÕm here to help you but youÕre the expert. This is Ð youÕre in the driverÕs seat as to how youÕre going to make these things work or not and I always think our roles as SLPs is really to work ourselves out of a job, you know? It's to empower our clients or our students or whatever population weÕre working with to take these skills and we give them to them. They can take them and run with them and build on them and even teach us things that we never thought. So I love that, that point of youÕre the expert, especially when weÕre working with those high school and junior high students. I can see why you donÕt have problems with your kids because youÕre empowering them and youÕre giving them that respect. [0:23:14.0] KO: Absolutely. Oh, respect is a huge piece of it. I didnÕt even talk about that but yes, respect is a huge piece of it because that is one way to tick off a teenager, to make them feel disrespected. They donÕt like it but itÕs mutual respect. I let them know that I will always respect you but I in return, expect, you know, that same respect. [0:23:42.5] CL: Yeah, thank you for that piece. You know, and I had Dr. Gunn, the executive functioning SLP. I think sheÕs the EFSLP on Instagram. I had her on the podcast last year and she was talking about working on executive functioning skills and she does a private practice where she works with high school students. Study skills and those executive functioning pieces and IÕm thinking, ÒOh my goodness, yeah, thatÕs within my scope of practice tooÓ and how that would really be something really kind of fun to empower these kids to take these skills and add them to what it is that theyÕre applying in their classes and whatever. So as you were talking about you know, what your caseload looks like, and yes, these kids need services, I was reminded of her conversion that she had to say about the piece that she does with high school students. So just thank you for advocating for our middle and high school students and the need for them to have a safe space to practice these skills and continue to build on their skills. I really think that you brought on a very important second point to us. So whatÕs your third point? [0:24:52.1] KO: Okay. So the third point, we kind of hit on it already, is that whatever we do with our students, weÕre thinking about of course, you know, where they are, their academics and that includes their social interactions of course with their peers and weÕre thinking beyond as well. So whatever we do with our students it needs to be functional, it needs to be relevant, it needs to be meaningful and so in regards to functional, does it make sense for this student? Everything doesnÕt make sense for every student. So what weÕre doing as far as goals and activities, does it make sense for this student and their needs and thatÕs how we ensure whether itÕs functional or not. Is it relevant? Is it something that is immediate for their life right now? I was telling the college about this. Just yesterday, I had a student come into my office this week, heÕs a senior and weÕre about three weeks out from graduation. He comes in and we do our check-in like we always do. I ask him how things are going, heÕs got three weeks left, ÒYou know, are you excited?Ó and he says, ÒWell, IÕm failing four classes.Ó ÒOh my gosh, okay. So letÕs talk about this, whatÕs going on?Ó and so we talked a little bit and he says, ÒWell, IÕve got a test tomorrow and this teacher says, you know, I just need do the study guide and take the test.Ó So I light up and IÕm like, ÒOkay, you have the study guide?Ó HeÕs like, ÒYup.Ó I was like, ÒPull it outÓ and so he pulls out the study guide and we take that session and we go over all the vocabulary. I know this is a kid who does not like to study. IÕve had him for like two years now and heÕs told me, ÒI would rather cheat than study, I just donÕt want to do it.Ó So I say, ÒOkay, this is the perfect opportunity to help him and teach him some of the study skills that heÕs going to need to make it through the study guide and take this test tomorrow.Ó So he pulls out the study guide and we go through it question by question and we start to activate some of the background knowledge to help him with the definitions and the vocabulary. We start writing things on the board, IÕm drawing pictures, IÕm having him repeat it and IÕm having him write it down and weÕre going through all of this and weÕre using all these multiple modalities, weÕre saying and then weÕre seeing and weÕre giving examples and IÕm drawing pictures and we get through like an entire page of his study guide. So at the end, I just see his face light up and I say, ÒHow do you feel about that?Ó He was like, ÒIt felt pretty goodÓ and I say, ÒDo you remember some of the things that you know, we went over?Ó HeÕs like, ÒYeah, I doÓ and so I said, ÒYou can do this, youÕve got this, we just went through an entire page and you told me, you know, all of the definitions, all of the vocabulary, you explained it to me and not once did you look at the study guide. We did this in like 35 minutes. You can do this.Ó And despite what I had planned for that session before he walked in, that was what was relevant for him right then and there and that was the most meaningful thing and so we did it. So sometimes, even if you have something that is really functional planned, finding out whatÕs relevant for that student is huge. ItÕs a huge, huge piece to it and then also, whatÕs meaningful for them, what are their interests, what are they like? What do they do in their spare time? And incorporating some of that into your activities or your discussions, t really does give a lot of buy-in as well. The student is interested in basketball and you decided, weÕre going to do an article on basketball. That is so meaningful for them and theyÕre all in. So ensuring that weÕre making it meaningful and functional and relevant for whatever is going on is a huge piece of what therapy looks like for our teenagers. [SPONSOR MESSAGE] [0:28:57.3] CL: Did you know that speechtherapypd.com has weekly live and interactive webinars? We are the fastest-growing CE provider. Subscribe today to get access to over 750 different courses in audio or video format. [INTERVIEW CONTINUED] [0:29:13.7] CL: I absolutely love that because you shared he lit up, he felt empowered, heÕs got the skills now. I mean, I know, itÕs hard to do things. ItÕs hard to do hard things on your own but he at least has the skills now to go through his study guide and learn how to write them, learn how to see them, learn how to hear them, learn how to draw them. I love that example of like, ÒOkay, I took all these different modalities, we work through this togetherÓ and so I love that because heÕs also prepared for his test the next day. ThatÕs huge, I just love that example and your flexibility in being able to, ÒOkay, this is whatÕs needed right now, not this amazing fun thing that IÕve planned for the end of the year but this.Ó I love that real-life example. [0:30:05.0] KO: ThatÕs key, you have to be flexible. There is multiple times where IÕve had an entire thing set aside, ready to go and a kid walks in and they say something and I go, ÒHmm, all right, pivot. WeÕll do this later, this is more important right nowÓ and we go with that. So definitely, you have to be flexible for sure. [0:30:28.3] CL: Yeah, I love that. I remember as you were talking about it, I remember doing an observation in undergrad. We had to go and observe tons of different SLPs and I just remember, you know, emailing all the SLPs in my area and whoever responded was who I went to go observe and I went and observed a middle school SLP and he had a group of students and he was running study hall. But they were going through their textbooks and writing tests for this section that they were in and then the SLP had to take the test and they would grade him but he said, ÒThis is, I want them to start thinking about, ÔOkay, what kinds ofÕÓ heÕs like, ÒThe student, his goals, WH questions. The student is thisÓ and heÕs like, ÒBut I also wanted to be relevant to what theyÕre doingÓ and heÕs like, ÒAnd itÕs really fun for them if I failed their tests.Ó [0:31:23.0] KO: Yes. [0:31:24.3] CL: So I just thought of that piece as you were talking about studying and you know, now I want to be a secondary SLP. [0:31:33.6] KO: ThatÕs so fun. I tell people itÕs not that scary, itÕs actually fun. I mean, of course, itÕs not for everyone and their personality but I think that sometimes, it gets a bad rep. [0:31:45.5] CL: Yeah. [0:31:48.5] KO: ItÕs like, ÒOh, I love it here, itÕs fun.Ó We get to work on functional things, we get to work on life skills, these students are, you know, we can talk to them like they are almost adults. You know, we donÕt have to, I guess, be as animated and have so much energy all the time. We can just sit and have a conversation like you and I are about things and I think that thatÕs just so much fun to be able to just do that. TheyÕre like little adults. TheyÕre not quite adults yet, theyÕre little adults but they have enough awareness and understanding to get it when you just sit down and explain things to them. [0:32:29.1] CL: Awesome, not that the things we work on in elementary arenÕt real life but I just, you know, I can see how youÕre able to see the impact that you're making with your students, maybe a little bit more clearly than those of us who are working on like story grammar skills, which are necessary. You know, so necessary that a student understand how to retell a story or an event that happens at school but I can just see how you know, theyÕve got the skills and youÕre building on those and empowering them and just having those fun conversations. I know, IÕm starting to step into that arena with some of my sixth graders and itÕs so much fun. It was cute. Yesterday, I was walking to my office and I have a group of sixth-grade girls and theyÕre all in the same class and they were like, theyÕre whispering to each other, ÒItÕs so obvious, itÕs so obviousÓ and so I turned and the teacher said, ÒI think they have something they need to tell youÓ and they said, ÒYouÕre pregnant, arenÕt you?Ó I said, ÒI amÓ and theyÕre like, ÒYou lied to usÓ and I said, ÒHow did I lie to you?Ó TheyÕre like, ÒWell, you didnÕt tell usÓ and so you know, while theyÕre lining up waiting to go back into their classroom from recess, we talked about the difference between lying and not necessarily disclosing information and it was just kind of a fun conversation to have with these girls. As youÕre talking about working with your secondary students, I was like, ÒOh, maybe I could be a secondary SLP.Ó [0:34:00.7] KO: You totally could, I believe that you would be great. [0:34:04.8] CL: IÕm hoping that if we have new grads that are really worried about being put in secondary positions that they listen to this and they know that theyÕre feeling excited about it because I know that that happened for me where, you know when you are first applying youÕre the low man on the totem pole and you kind of get put where schools are open and that can be scary. So I am hoping that IÕm feeling super excited about secondary, who knows if IÕll ever end up there. [0:34:37.3] KO: I had no experience with secondary when I started, so all of my placements with were younger kids or adults when I was in grad school and when I interviewed for my first job, for my CF position, I remember the coordinator saying, ÒOh, IÕve got the perfect high school for youÓ and I was like, ÒWhat? Oh, no. Absolutely not.Ó I never had any experience with high schoolers and so I was very apprehensive about going into high school therapy. She says, ÒOh no, youÕll do fineÓ she was like, ÒIÕve done it for years, I think youÕll be greatÓ and she goes, ÒItÕs the best kept secretÓ and so IÕm like, ÒI think this lady just wants me to come out to her district.Ó So I did it and IÕve never left. [0:35:27.8] CL: ThatÕs awesome. Yeah, thatÕs awesome. I love that and I do remember sitting in those interviews and being like, ÒAre you sure? I donÕt know about thisÓ you know, for whatever position, right? Because we are in need and so I love that. I love that youÕve never left. You know, youÕve dabbled here and there but your main day-to-day role has been secondary, which is so awesome. [0:35:49.9] KO: Absolutely. I like to call myself a secondary SLP. [0:35:53.3] CL: I like it. [0:35:54.9] KO: IÕve termed that. [0:35:56.7] CL: I like it. So you know, as weÕve talked about these three things that we need to know and weÕre kind of moving into that realm of maybe if there is somebody who is jumping into the secondary SLP role for the first time, what are resources that can help us learn more or resources we can use in our practice, what do you have for us today? [0:36:17.1] KO: Absolutely. So I like to compile what I call just an inventory of my go-to things and with high school therapy, I always hear people say, ÒWe donÕt have a lot of things for our high school students, we need more materialsÓ and itÕs true, we do need things but we donÕt need a lot of things, which is the really good part of it. I can consistently use dry-erase boards and markers in every one of my sessions. It's like itÕs just one of those things thatÕs just embedded in what we do every session. You donÕt need a whole lot of things. I do have a binder of visuals that I will use with my students as well and it has maybe graphic organizers or it may have some little reminders. So anything visually to help the student on whatever activity weÕre working on, so I have a binder of those things but then I also, especially around the time of COVID, I started to build my online inventory of just resources. So I have Ð YouTube, itÕs one of the best things ever and so what IÕve done is IÕve created a playlist essentially on YouTube of just video. I can go down a rabbit hole of videos like nobodyÕs business. So I have all these videos that IÕve gone through and saved and theyÕre clips of TV shows, theyÕre clips from movies. The new thing that I found that I am a little bit obsessed with itÕs wordless shorts, I think itÕs what theyÕre called and they are so good. TheyÕre like three minutes long, an entire little scene, oh, I love those. Those are so good for conversation and even some of our pride kids who weÕre looking at body language and weÕre looking at just interactions with Ð oh, I love those, so YouTube has been fantastic resource. Like I said, I have my playlist, and whenever I need to use something IÕll go to my playlist and IÕll pick out, ÒOkay, which video do I want to use for the discussion or for the activity or whatever it is that weÕre doing.Ó So that has been really huge and then also online, I use a lot of the language and literacy websites that have the reading articles. So Newsela is fantastic, I love that site because theyÕll have some of the really relevant and latest news and theyÕll put it in an article and you can determine how long you want the article to be, you can do a longer one or a shorter one but they also have really relevant things. So they had an article on The Grammys and they had an article on when LeBron broke the record for Ð and so those are like really fun things that you know, itÕs a reading and itÕs a literacy activity but itÕs a relevant literacy activity for whatÕs going on currently in the world and then another that I like to use is ReadWorks. ItÕs readworks.org and itÕs also like a Newsela, where itÕs a website that has many different readings, articles. They can search by grade level, they can search by what goal youÕre looking to do like if youÕre looking for articles that support the student finding main idea or making entrances. I typically just find an article that I like and then I work with, ÒOkay, we can find predictionsÓ or we can make predictions here, we can find them an idea versus kind of searching through that but those online resources are really what I use for the bulk of what I do. Whether itÕs one of the articles or one of my YouTube videos and then you have things that I use in my sessions as well. So we may have Ð oh, one of the things that I use consistently also are, I donÕt know what the name is for them, but I call them like language cards and essentially Ð or picture scene cards and essentially, itÕs just a picture, a scene of something happening and theyÕre really good for language, for discussions. You can make predictions, you can work on comparing and contrasting, you can work so many different things and I think itÕs just a set that I got from one of the teacherÕs supply stores but I use those a lot for language activities or you could use it for fluency or anything. So the thing that I try to always think of whenever IÕm pulling resources is, ÒWhat can I use for multiple students, multiple goals, use it in multiple different ways to sort of use with our students?Ó So I look at things that are really I guess quality things, things that I can use over time, things that I can build on and use for multiple different goals for our students. So I donÕt use a whole lot of things but I have my go-to things that are really solid and quality that I know that I can use over and over again and then also build upon. [0:41:25.9] CL: Awesome. I mean, you gave us more than two resources, I love that. I love that, you know, readworks.org, Newsela. Okay, Newsela, thatÕs so fun, that they do fun articles. You know, fun articles about The Grammys and LeBron. I mean, that was a big deal. [0:41:48.2] KO: It was. It was and the kids knew all about it. So when I brought out the article, theyÕre like, ÒOh yes, we saw itÓ and then of course, that leads to discussion and itÕs great because they already have the background knowledge and so then we start reading the article. It just makes it that much better. [0:42:05.2] CL: Yeah, I love that. ThereÕs a group, so one of the recreational aids is a big Laker fan. Another teacher that I worked with is a big Clippers fan, weÕre in Southern California and the last couple of weeks, every morning there is a group of students, theyÕre not speech students but itÕs just fun to walk in and weÕll talk about the game the night before or weÕll talk about you know, whatÕs going to happen and so I am thinking as you are talking about that, ÒOh yeah, I could totally incorporate current sports news in with my older students.Ó [0:42:37.0] KO: Absolutely. Yes, if thatÕs what theyÕre interested in, absolutely. Yeah and then it doesnÕt become like, ÒOh, I feel like IÕm doing work.Ó ItÕs almost like you know, theyÕre just talking about something that they like but you know that youÕre working on their goals and things with them. So yeah, I love that. [0:42:57.2] CL: Yeah, every morning at the gate in the last couple of weeks, itÕs been talking about the game the night before, whoÕs going to win, you know, a little bit of trash-talking here and there but thatÕs what makes it fun. ItÕs all in good fun, so I love that and the wordless shorts. I love those. [0:43:13.2] KO: I donÕt know if itÕs new or I just discovered it but IÕm all in. [0:43:18.4] CL: You know, IÕm not sure. I know Dr. Anna Vagin, she utilizes them a ton in her work and I think if you go to her website, sheÕs got a list of them that she works through and she also has resources about how to utilize them. IÕve learned a lot from her about working through those wordless shorts. I know she uses a lot of Maca and Roni and then there is an art school that sheÕs based in Bay Area and there is an art school in San Francisco that creates them every year. So I canÕt remember what the school is called, you can look on their YouTube channel and they have a bunch of really fun ones. I know IÕve used Heron and Joy a ton, itÕs a Ð anyway, when you talked about that I just lit up. I was like, ÒOh yeah, theyÕre amazingÓ and you can do so much with them. [0:44:08.8] KO: You can. This is why we donÕt need so many things, we just need quality things that we can use for multiple kids. You can use that for almost anyone of your kids, articulation kid, a fluency kid, a language kid, you know a kid who is working on pragmatics, it can be used for any student. [0:44:27.8] CL: Yeah, it can and you know, the way that Anna kind of works through the clips too, you can use one video for multiple sessions and so thatÕs been really helpful. I think thatÕs the best thing that happened for my practice when it comes to COVID was I utilized so much more digital resources now than I ever did before and the kids love it. I mean, thatÕs what theyÕre interested in. So I think that that was such a good point that you made about building your inventory, youÕve got your stuff that you can use brick-and-mortar but then your online resources, I think thatÕs huge and thatÕs what weÕre learning. You know, thatÕs what theyÕre doing in the classroom, thatÕs what is interesting to them. So I love that youÕre utilizing YouTube and making it fun for the kids. So thank you for sharing all of those resources with us, we definitely got more today, which is awesome. So what is your one actionable strategy that we can start utilizing tomorrow with our secondary students? [0:45:30.4] KO: I would say the one thing that we can and I think is really going to be impactful for us to do is to Ð because we are SLPs and so in our therapy sessions, we are the ones whoÕs competent in expressive language and weÕre competent and we know how to articulate and self-regulate and the student thatÕs the one thatÕs there learning and practicing it and so I think the one thing that I would say to our SLPs working with secondary students is that sometimes we have to take a minute to take off the SLP lens and really try and see the world through the eyes of our student. So sometimes when we see things that are behaviors that may not be the most positive, sometimes that means we just need to take a step back and try and see how this child sees the world as a language impaired student, you know, coming to school every day and just trying their best you know, whether theyÕre being successful or not or a student who has a flimsy disorder just navigating their day and trying to see the world sort of through their eyes or even some of my students who are in self-contain. You know, a student who uses an AAC device, just trying to understand what their day looks like from their eyes and I think it allows us to have a little bit more compassion and understanding when we see a child maybe making decisions that arenÕt necessarily the best or maybe even having behaviors, just to understand that this is a child thatÕs trying to navigate. TheyÕre a teenager, they donÕt know everything. They are trying to navigate life as the student with the language impairment or student with the fluency disorder and they wonÕt always get things right and so when we take off that lens of you know, being the adult who has it together, we know how to do things and just really trying to understand and see that this is a child who is just trying to navigate and theyÕre not going to always get things right. That we can show our students a little bit of compassion and grace when they donÕt quite make them work. So thatÕs the one thing that I would say that that is an actionable easy thing for us to just walk into our sessions and do and say, ÒOkay, I want to take off my SLP lens. IÕm going to try and see things from the perspective of this student who is struggling with pragmaticsÓ you know, navigating their day and understanding that a little bit more. [SPONSOR MESSAGE] [0:48:18.6] CL: Are you looking to move up on the pay scale? You can through SpeechTherapyPD.com, in collaboration with University of the Pacific. Start earning graduate-level credits today. Courses are evidence-based and practical. Win-win. Check out SpeechTherapyPD.com, for more information on earning graduate-level credits. [INTERVIEW CONTINUED] [0:48:40.4] CL: I mean, I can see now absolutely why you donÕt have issues with your students because they know without a doubt that you are in their corner, you know? Especially if thatÕs how youÕre approaching them like, ÒOkay, my goal here is to help you through this not to make sure that youÕre perfect every timeÓ I think thatÕs huge. I went to a panel at USC this last weekend and it was a neuro-diversity-affirming panel. There were professors at USC, one was a linguistics professor who has an interest in people with disabilities, there was a law professor who had schizophrenia and then there was a woman who has a BCBA professor at USC and she had written a book with an autistic man and they shared a clip of him reading his story and as you were talking about, ÒOkay, how do we view this through their lens?Ó take off our lens. Take off what we think, you know, we know exactly what needs to happen. We know exactly how they need to communicate in this situation but they canÕt do it thatÕs why they need our help. So how do we look through their lens and he shared a really pivotal moment in his life was when he was in high school, he was being bullied at school, the teachers werenÕt listening to him and he said, ÒI was probably not communicating appropriately what was really happening.Ó So he didnÕt really see the point of being at school anymore, decided to go home, left school early, walked home, his parents were inside, he was knocking on the door, they didnÕt answer the door because they didnÕt want him to be at home. They wanted him to walk back to school but there was no communication that happened. He knew where the axe was in the garage, went and got the axe, and broke down the door so he could go inside. He was fixing his own problem. Well, when that happened, the parents called the police, the police came and he ended up in a residential care facility because his parents saw him as a threat, the police saw him as a threat and he said it was so embarrassing, ÒYou know, all I wanted was to go inside my room and relax after a hard day at school and if they had just answered the door, I would have walked in, gone upstairs, gotten a snack, you know, relaxed but that wasnÕt.Ó Ð So as you were talking about how do we see whatÕs happening through our studentÕs lens, you know, we know their executive functioning hasnÕt fully developed at that age. We know that they have issues, which is why they come to see us, which is why we work with them and I think thatÕs so key especially as IÕve been processing through that story this week of, ÒHow do we best help and give those life skills?Ó I think your role I can see why you see it as life work of really helping bridge that gap for these students, I think thatÕs so huge and that was such an important story for me to think about when we see behaviors even at the elementary level of kids running out of the classroom. Well, why are they running out of the classroom? [0:51:43.0] KO: Yes, yes, exactly and thatÕs when itÕs our role to step in and try and see instead of always and I understand, you know, that there are things that we have to do for safety reasons but instead of stepping in always and correcting the child, trying to see first, you know, where this child is coming from because it may be a fight or flight situation where they were so overwhelmed or they were so dysregulated they didnÕt have the words to communicate it and that was the reaction that they had. So thatÕs when itÕs our job to step in and help them to shape, ÒOkay, what are some of the maybe more dangerous?Ó or behaviors that are not successful and help them shape those into more successful ways of coping and dealing with things. ItÕs like when weÕre upset, sometimes we may need to get away. We do it in a way that people donÕt necessarily question it. We may just kind of get up and quietly walk away versus a child, who is still trying to figure things you, they may elope and youÕre like, ÒWhy are they running?Ó itÕs like the child needs to get away. This is too much, so really understanding that you know, what we see is happening because of something that the child is experiencing on the inside and we have to be kind of that connection to help them to get to maybe a safer way or a better way becoming more competent in their communication skills. [0:53:24.2] CL: Thank you. Thank you for bringing that up as an actionable strategy because I think thatÕs something thatÕs so overlooked and especially in the conversations that IÕve had on the podcast. You know, somebody might say, ÒOh, make sure you do this one thing, make sure your therapy is relevant. You know, make sure you do this one thingÓ and I think that you bringing that piece up of take off your SLP lens, take off the things you know you need to Ð that needs to happen, and really put yourself in this child or this studentÕs shoes and figure out why are they doing the things that theyÕre doing, how do we help them bridge that gap. Kayla, you are such a gift and a blessing to your school that you work with, to all of us, for inspiring us to do the same thing, and as I was kind of processing through you sharing that idea of you know, okay, well, we know how to self-regulate. We know how to do these things and these students donÕt, I was trying to think of examples in my own practice, in my own day-to-day. I mean, I know that I am better at providing that compassion to students when I am in a good place and so I want to pivot a little but because this is another passion of yours. We just touch on it briefly but you also really care about wellness for SLPs. I mentioned before, you have Coffeehouse SLP, where you have this amazing inspirational book. Can you just touch on a little bit about making sure that weÕre in a good place and that we have that full cup to support our students? [0:55:01.4] KO: Yes, definitely and you hit it right there where you said making sure that we have a full cup. I always say that we have to fill our cup and then we pour into others from our overflow. If we are exhausted, if we are burned out, there is no way that we can show up for our students and be our best self as an SLP. ThereÕs no way we can show up for our family and our friends and anyone in our lives if we are constantly in a state of exhaustion or burnout. I hate the aspect of our career where sometimes itÕs so productivity-driven and our work as SLPs is simplified to a caseload number and weÕre so much more than that. We never go into a therapy session, do the session, and then are completely removed from it. We are invested so much into our students, our clients, or whoever weÕre working with that it takes a lot from us to be able to pour into our students and thereÕs no way we can do that if we donÕt allow ourselves the time and the space to take care of ourselves. I hear I have used it before, a lot about balancing, work-life balance, and balancing all the different things that we have, and when I think of balance, I think of the visual of like holding things up and just trying to make sure that things donÕt fall and I think that the better way to really conceptualize it is not necessarily balancing but boundaries because when youÕre balancing, you still have so many things and youÕre just trying to ensure that things donÕt fall. I think that living life in a way to where weÕre just trying to keep things from falling apart is not the best plan that we can have. I think that we can be better if we have boundaries; boundaries for work, boundaries for other obligations in our life, and sometimes those boundaries mean that you need to have time to yourself. Sometimes those boundaries mean that you need to involve yourself with things that fill you and give you energy. What are your passions? Whether it be professionally or are they outside of the profession, what are those things that make up who you are? Being an SLP honestly is one aspect of who we are. I know it takes a lot out of us to where it seems like, ÒOh my gosh, itÕs taken over my lifeÓ but it really is one aspect of who we are. So ensuring that we have boundaries so that we can have time and space and energy to devote to all those other things in our life is huge. It's huge and itÕs something that IÕve had to realize definitely. Also, be aware of what your body is telling you. Your body will tell you when you need to rest or when you need to take a break and I think that because weÕre great SLPs, we just keep pushing and keep doing things, which is great. I believe in hard work, I do but I also believe that you have to take time for yourself. You have to create the space like itÕs not there. It wonÕt just appear, you have to create the space and the way that I found the best way to do that is by having boundaries. [0:58:39.8] CL: Awesome. Thank you so much of just touching on that really key piece because as youÕve talked throughout this last hour about how much you give to your students, IÕm thinking, ÒOkay, she is giving so much to her students, sheÕs putting herself in their shoes, sheÕs thinking about how to make it meaningful and relevant and building that connectionÓ and that connection can really take a lot from us. ItÕs so different than walking in with our flashcards, doing our flashcards, sending the kids on, taking our data, updating our progress report, that is something that a robot can do but weÕre not robots, and in order to build those meaningful connections, in order to do this hard work and this life work that youÕre talking about, we really need to make sure that weÕve got full lives and so I really love that key piece because as youÕve been talking today, IÕm like, ÒMan, Kayla is amazing.Ó ÒOh my goodness, IÕm so inspired today to show up for my students in a relevant way and to build those connections and to keep working on those connectionsÓ and thatÕs I think what gives us the joy with this profession is building those connections but we have to make sure that we have the energy to do that and so I just really appreciate you taking the time to talk about boundaries, talk about how to show up as an SLP we also need to make sure that weÕre able to show up for ourselves and you know, making those boundaries of whatÕs important for us, and taking that time and I think especially social media is fantastic but sometimes we look at the SLP realm of social media and itÕs like, ÒOh my gosh, we need to be doing all these things.Ó You know, there is so many girl bosses out there, right? You know, theyÕre school-based SLPs and theyÕre private practice and theyÕre selling their materials on TVT and I donÕt necessarily. I know you have a side hustle but for me, your side hustle not that it doesnÕt feel that way with the other SLPs but for me, it really Ð it comes across as your heart work and your life work that you do and itÕs something that you do for yourself that you thought, ÒWhy donÕt I share this with other people?Ó [1:00:51.5] KO: Yes. [1:00:52.6] CL: As opposed to like, ÒWell, IÕm trying to hustle.Ó IÕve been a fan of yours for so long and itÕs so fun to meet you in this space. I appreciate who you are and what you bring to our profession and what you bring to your students and to your school campus. You know, I am sure that they find you to just be a breath of fresh air and light and such a blessing. So before we end, I just wanted to give you that piece of gratitude. [1:01:23.3] KO: Thank you and I will just say this; that everything that I Ð you know, IÕve learned with my students and then as far as the boundaries, everything is something that I have experienced along the way and I have failed at. So now, I can look back and say, ÒOkay, that did not work. Now I know better and these are the things that I know to do a little bit better moving forward.Ó I still have work to do every day in continuing to set my boundaries and continuing to show up for my students is always something that I need to improve on and I think you talk about social media and I will say this that social media paints the picture that everyone has it all together and theyÕre perfect and no one is perfect. IÕm not perfect in anything and IÕm okay with saying that like I know a lot but I donÕt know everything. IÕm good at certain areas and there are a lot of areas that I still need a lot of work yet, which is why I have to be intentional about reminding myself of certain things. So I just wanted to say that like no one is perfect in this world. WeÕre all just striving just to be a little bit better every day and IÕm okay with that. [1:02:42.9] CL: You know, thank you for bringing up that point too and I love your humility. IÕm sure that youÕre great but what IÕve also learned too is priorities of mine, when I first started out, you know, my first five years are vastly different than my priorities now because my life looks vastly different and so it comes back to that flexibility piece that you were talking about, you know, applying that flexibility within our sessions, applying that within our practice. Yes, we have firm boundaries but itÕs okay to change those over time. [1:03:16.1] KO: Absolutely. Oh yeah, boundaries change so whatever youÕre boundaries in this season may not necessarily be the boundary in the next season. Sometimes we have to shift, like you said, based on what we have going on in our lives and thatÕs fine. ItÕs totally okay. [1:03:30.8] CL: It is, oh my goodness, you know I just have to have you back on to talk about boundaries and that self-piece care actually. I think that would be a great conversation and we can dive more into your daily Ð well, we were talking before we started recording how both Kayla and I use her inspirations book more as a weekly than a daily but you Ð [1:03:51.9] KO: I was very intentional not to put daily on there because I know. [1:03:59.1] CL: So anyway, weÕll talk about that in the future for sure but Kayla, as we wrap up can you just recap your three things we need to know, your two resources, and your one actionable strategy for us? [1:04:13.7] KO: Yes. The three things to know about secondary therapy, one, yes, there are students who still need therapy in secondary. ThatÕs okay, thatÕs why weÕre here, we show up for those kids. Secondly, that we lead every interaction with our students with forming connections, building those connections, and ensuring that our students know that they can trust us and that this is a safe space to do the hard work that we have to do and then lastly, that our therapy sessions are functional. TheyÕre relevant, theyÕre meaningful and that we are doing life work for our students. [1:04:49.9] CL: Awesome and then the resources that you have for us. [1:04:53.5] KO: Oh yes, the resources, gosh, YouTube. One of my favorite resources, create playlists, you know, compile all the different go-to things that are going to be wonderful for your students. Online resources for language articles; Newsela and ReadWorks are two great ones and then also just having your tangible materials that are really quality for your students so that you can just use those and reuse those and use them for multiple groups and multiple goals and all those good things are really the resources that I use as well. So you donÕt need a lot but those are the things that you know, are good and theyÕre the best bang for your buck. [1:05:34.5] CL: Awesome and then your last actionable strategy. [1:05:37.0] KO: The last actionable strategy for my SLPs that are working with secondary students is really just take a minute to try and see the world through the studentÕs eyes. We are SLPs, you know, they are the students, they have their lives experiences, and just try and understand their perspective when it comes to things and we may not always get it completely but the least we could do is make an attempt to try and see things from their world. [1:06:05.8] CL: Awesome. You know Kayla, I know I said it before but just thank you so much. This was such a fun conversation to have and I am just excited to continue to learn and grow from you. Those that donÕt know you, how can they get in touch with you if they have follow-up questions or if they just want to see what youÕre up to? [1:06:26.2] KO: Yeah, so my favorite hangout is on Instagram, itÕs @coffeehouse_slp on Instagram. ThatÕs where I typically do a lot of my posts and definitely if anyone is interested and would like to reach out to me, send me a DM, send me a message. IÕm always there, so thatÕs where you can find me. [1:06:45.4] CL: All right. Well, thank you so much. Thank you to our listeners. I hope you enjoyed todayÕs conversation as much as I did and weÕll see you back here soon. [END OF INTERVIEW] [1:06:54.3] CL: Each episode has an accompanying audio course on SpeechTherapyPD.com available for 0.1 ASHA CEUs. Use the unique coupon code for listeners of this podcast, ÒLife 20Ó for $20 off an audio course subscription. Audio course subscriptions give access to all existing and new audio courses from SpeechTherapyPD.com. Again, use the code ÒLife 20Ó to access more than 200 hours of audio courses for $59 a year. Visit speechtherapypd.com/life for more information and start earning CEs today. Thanks for joining us at This Speech Life. Remember to go to SpeechTherapyPD.com to learn more about earning ASHA CEUs. We appreciate your positive reviews and support and would love for you to write a quick review and subscribe. [END] SpeechLife 3600Transcript © 2023 This Speech Life 26